“I think it’s difficult to see how it’s avoided in any rational way. Obviously there are two things I would feel. The first is that when I’m told that people like me have to get over it, I’m not bloody well going to get over it. I think that it’s the worst thing politically that’s happened to Britain in my political lifetime. It’s worse than Suez in a lot of ways because Suez was clearly the end of a story. Joining the European Union was part of our effort to actually find a different role for ourselves in the world,” he says.
“How can you actually snuff out all of the opportunities which Europe offers in the name of this chimera of sovereignty? I think that the longer things go on, the more it will become apparent that the costs are very real.”
Chris Patten has rather a history of thinking that democracy shouldn't inconvenience want he wants.
The EU of course was one of innumerable establishment organisations to which he was appointed - did he declare in the interview how many millions he has had from it ?
Like many on this site, you seem to regard democracy and populism as synonymous.
Populism is simply a word for democracy one doesn't like.
That's an abuse of the English language up with which I cannot put.
Seriously, it astonishes me that on a site where the discussion is generally of a good standard so many people seem to regard the referendum as an example of democracy and therefore sacrosanct. It was neither.
(But please, please do not infer from this I believe we should not accept the result. We should. We have made the bed. We must kip in it.)
It was certainly an example of democracy.
It doesn't necessarily follow that it was sacrosanct. Plenty of the world's greatest thinkers have condemned democracy.
I must have gone to the wrong school, Sean.
To me, democracy in its modern western sense implies electing representatives to run things in our best interests to the best of their ability. Every five years or so, we change some of those representatives.
A referendum asks the populace what it thinks on a particular issue, on a particular day.
That's not the same. It's not even close, is it?
Referenda are a frequent feature of Western democracies.
Like many on this site, you seem to regard democracy and populism as synonymous.
Populism is simply a word for democracy one doesn't like.
That's an abuse of the English language up with which I cannot put.
Seriously, it astonishes me that on a site where the discussion is generally of a good standard so many people seem to regard the referendum as an example of democracy and therefore sacrosanct. It was neither.
(But please, please do not infer from this I believe we should not accept the result. We should. We have made the bed. We must kip in it.)
It was certainly an example of democracy.
It doesn't necessarily follow that it was sacrosanct. Plenty of the world's greatest thinkers have condemned democracy.
I must have gone to the wrong school, Sean.
To me, democracy in its modern western sense implies electing representatives to run things in our best interests to the best of their ability. Every five years or so, we change some of those representatives.
A referendum asks the populace what it thinks on a particular issue, on a particular day.
That's not the same. It's not even close, is it?
Referendums have been a major part of the political process in other countries than Britain for a long time.
Now we can discuss whether they are good or bad but I don't think we can say they're not a form of democracy. A different form of democracy certainly.
My issue with the Brexit vote is that it is in practice undeliverable as promised. The vote needs to be respected but we obviously want to avoid a disaster, so it will probably be very compromised and unsatisfactory to everyone.
“I think it’s difficult to see how it’s avoided in any rational way. Obviously there are two ope offers in the name of this chimera of sovereignty? I think that the longer things go on, the more it will become apparent that the costs are very real.”
Chris Patten has rather a history of thinking that democracy shouldn't inconvenience want he wants.
The EU of course was one of innumerable establishment organisations to which he was appointed - did he declare in the interview how many millions he has had from it ?
Like many on this site, you seem to regard democracy and populism as synonymous.
Populism is simply a word for democracy one doesn't like.
That's an abuse of the English language up with which I cannot put.
Seriously, it astonishes me that on a site where the discussion is generally of a good standard so many people seem to regard the referendum as an example of democracy and therefore sacrosanct. It was neither.
(But please, please do not infer from this I believe we should not accept the result. We should. We have made the bed. We must kip in it.)
It was certainly an example of democracy.
It doesn't necessarily follow that it was sacrosanct. Plenty of the world's greatest thinkers have condemned democracy.
I must have gone to the wrong school, Sean.
That's not the same. It's not even close, is it?
The Swiss have them all the time. They're not exactly rampaging Trumpians.
Yes, I know. I'm not saying they are necessarily bad things. I can see they have their place, and in some countries they might work particularly well.
All I'm saying is that referendums are not synonymous with democracy. They might be features of a healthy functioning democracy, but they are not the same thing, and the tendency to elevate them to some sort of apotheosis of democratic virtue is bewildering and misleading.
Government by referendum generates obvious problems, as Brexit amply illustrated. Calling it 'democratic' is a deception. I'm amazed how many people here fall for it.
"Food poisoning affects an estimated 25 percent of Americans every year. That compares with roughly 30 percent of people in industrialized countries, according to the World Health Organization"
So it seems (or seemed 8 years ago anyway)
Sure, there is a lot of poor hygiene elsewhere too. Spain, Greece and Turkey in Europe, but America is quite high, despite the custom of overcooking. The combination of American meat and undercooking is a deadly one.
Ultimately it is about sovereignty. Would you prefer the UK, the EU or the US agribusiness to set our food standards? In whTcway do we gain by being dictated to by the USA?
I don't think it gets anyone anywhere to waste time on arguments where one side constantly extrapolates from the worse case scenario, then uses their conclusions to make snide digs.
So you reject the plans to import American foodstuffs that fall short of our current standards?
There is hope for you yet!
Its not worth my while to even speculate on it, if I hear that the food we import is not up to scratch I will shop around or not eat that food. We had horsemeat in the supermarkets masquerading as beef a few years ago I seem to recall
The key is labelling. Will this food be labelled properly? or will the Americans want to insist that labelling is a non tariff barrier as they did with GM tomatoes?
The horsemeat scandal was because of criminal behavior, not lax standards.
Yes fair enough.
Arguing with people with an agenda to extrapolate the worst and treat it as certainty on hypotheticals is just a waste of time for all involved though.
All votes are valid for the time they are taken, but none are perpetual. Any vote can be overtaken by events.
That said, we should go ahead with Brexit, so that the people can see the error of their ways.
Janan Ganesh in the FT
A century after Passchendaele, the death site of hundreds of thousands of allied and German soldiers, the causes of the great war remain contested. Among the scholarly guesses is that Europe was mesmerised by its own long peace. The concert of empires that had averted general continental violence also inured populations to the reality of it. They went to war in a jingoist stupor because they lacked the recent experience to know better.
Today, nothing on the turbulent horizon of the western world equals that war. It is turbulent all the same. There is a similar feeling of a liberal order besieged and, dare we say, a similar sense of innocents volunteering for trouble without really knowing it.
What if the Petri dish of radicalism is not mass suffering but prolonged order? What if electorates flirt with high-risk change out of complacency born of (relative) good times?
My issue with the Brexit vote is that it is in practice undeliverable as promised. The vote needs to be respected but we obviously want to avoid a disaster, so it will probably be very compromised and unsatisfactory to everyone.
What was promised, FF? The only promise was that we would leave the EU. If we do that, the promise has been fulfilled. That's all the Government is required to do - to see that we leave.
Obviously it will try to get the best terms possible, but if it doesn't, or gets no terms at all, ca ne fait rien. We voted leave. We get leave. 'End of'...as SeanT would say.
My issue with the Brexit vote is that it is in practice undeliverable as promised. The vote needs to be respected but we obviously want to avoid a disaster, so it will probably be very compromised and unsatisfactory to everyone.
You can say the same about general election results as well.
We're a country which wants it all and which wants someone else to pay for it.
Crystal Palace's ground is in the borough of Croydon which was 54.3% Remain - you have the result for Southwark.
Also Stamford Bridge is in the borough of Hammersmith not K&C.
Listing by parliamentary constituency also changes the list, for example Everton and Liverpool grounds are in the Liverpool Walton constituency which voted Leave:
The other night I asked a question about what should an intelligence agency do if it had some very notable and damaging, some might suggest fatal, information to do with the now US President but info that wasn't directly related to his links to the Russian Intelligence services and the Russian mob.
Those who are interested might want to read up about the Trump Modelling Agency, and some Trump acquaintances during that time to get a broad idea of what some Western Intelligence officials have in their possession.
This doesn't include what the Russians have either. They have been doing some hinting have Moscow that they'd like some favours.
There is a fair chance another bod is going to move out of the White House team this week.
Referenda are a frequent feature of Western democracies.
If they're that frequent you'll have no reason to object to another one soon after the deal is negotiated.
Will you demand another if it goes against you?
Good question, Sean, but doesn't that just show one of the many huge differences between democracy and government by referendum?
Who is to say how many referendums we should have, and when? And how binding they should be? And for how long? You can't make major long term policy decisions like that. It's ridiculous.
You have to elect representatives to plot a sensible course and stick to it, sometimes through some very adverse condiions. That's what we try to achieve through democratic process. Referendums can sometimes play a part in this, but they are neither a sufficient nor necessary part of the process. In fact in our own democracy, they tend to be something of a quirk, and can produce some disticntly quirky consequences!
WWI was very popular when it was declared. WWII was not.
Exactly.
The people who didn't believe it could be so bad cheered the first war. Those who knew feared the second.
And now the Brexiteers cheer. How bad could it be...
You've already told us that:
' Today, we are setting out our assessment of what would happen in the weeks and months after a vote to Leave on June 23.
It is clear that there would be an immediate and profound shock to our economy.
The analysis produced by the Treasury today shows that a vote to leave will push our economy into a recession that would knock 3.6 per cent off GDP and, over two years, put hundreds of thousands of people out of work right across the country, compared to the forecast for continued growth if we vote to remain in the EU.
In a more severe shock scenario, Treasury economists estimate that our economy could be hit by 6 per cent, there would be a deeper recession and unemployment would rise by even more. '
All votes are valid for the time they are taken, but none are perpetual. Any vote can be overtaken by events.
That said, we should go ahead with Brexit, so that the people can see the error of their ways.
Janan Ganesh in the FT
A century after Passchendaele, the death site of hundreds of thousands of allied and German soldiers, the causes of the great war remain contested. Among the scholarly guesses is that Europe was mesmerised by its own long peace. The concert of empires that had averted general continental violence also inured populations to the reality of it. They went to war in a jingoist stupor because they lacked the recent experience to know better.
Today, nothing on the turbulent horizon of the western world equals that war. It is turbulent all the same. There is a similar feeling of a liberal order besieged and, dare we say, a similar sense of innocents volunteering for trouble without really knowing it.
What if the Petri dish of radicalism is not mass suffering but prolonged order? What if electorates flirt with high-risk change out of complacency born of (relative) good times?
My issue with the Brexit vote is that it is in practice undeliverable as promised. The vote needs to be respected but we obviously want to avoid a disaster, so it will probably be very compromised and unsatisfactory to everyone.
What was promised, FF? The only promise was that we would leave the EU. If we do that, the promise has been fulfilled. That's all the Government is required to do - to see that we leave.
Obviously it will try to get the best terms possible, but if it doesn't, or gets no terms at all, ca ne fait rien. We voted leave. We get leave. 'End of'...as SeanT would say.
The promise that leaving the EU will not affect our lifestyles and prosperity, that we will retain everything we want from the EU and in any case it doesn't matter because we will more than make up for any loss with new opportunities from the rest of the world. In attempting to mitigate the damage to lifestyles and prosperity, the government will probably sign up to anything that's going, which will result in us having less say over own affairs than before, which was the whole point of leaving the EU, while still leaving us worse off in terms of our connections with the world.
My issue with the Brexit vote is that it is in practice undeliverable as promised. The vote needs to be respected but we obviously want to avoid a disaster, so it will probably be very compromised and unsatisfactory to everyone.
What was promised, FF? The only promise was that we would leave the EU. If we do that, the promise has been fulfilled. That's all the Government is required to do - to see that we leave.
Obviously it will try to get the best terms possible, but if it doesn't, or gets no terms at all, ca ne fait rien. We voted leave. We get leave. 'End of'...as SeanT would say.
The promise that leaving the EU will not affect our lifestyles and prosperity, that we will retain everything we want from the EU and in any case it doesn't matter because we will more than make up for any loss with new opportunities from the rest of the world. In attempting to mitigate the damage to lifestyles and prosperity, the government will probably sign up to anything that's going, which will result in us having less say over own affairs than before, which was the whole point of leaving the EU, while still leaving us worse off in terms of our connections with the world.
Yeah, well it didn't actually say that on the ballot paper. It just said Leave or Remain. I wanted to vote for 'Remain, but....'. There was no such option. No doubt a lot of Leavers wanted to vote for 'Leave, but....' and had to make do with 'Leave, whatever', which of course is what we've got.
Yes, I know. I'm not saying they are necessarily bad things. I can see they have their place, and in some countries they might work particularly well.
All I'm saying is that referendums are not synonymous with democracy. They might be features of a healthy functioning democracy, but they are not the same thing, and the tendency to elevate them to some sort of apotheosis of democratic virtue is bewildering and misleading.
Government by referendum generates obvious problems, as Brexit amply illustrated. Calling it 'democratic' is a deception. I'm amazed how many people here fall for it.
I see that you think that, but needless to say, I don't agree that the Brexit referendum has caused problems. I think that it is a triumph for the wisdom of crowds. It's not seen that way by many, but it was never going to be.
Yes, I know. I'm not saying they are necessarily bad things. I can see they have their place, and in some countries they might work particularly well.
All I'm saying is that referendums are not synonymous with democracy. They might be features of a healthy functioning democracy, but they are not the same thing, and the tendency to elevate them to some sort of apotheosis of democratic virtue is bewildering and misleading.
Government by referendum generates obvious problems, as Brexit amply illustrated. Calling it 'democratic' is a deception. I'm amazed how many people here fall for it.
I see that you think that, but needless to say, I don't agree that the Brexit referendum has caused problems. I think that it is a triumph for the wisdom of crowds. It's not seen that way by many, but it was never going to be.
The wisdom of crowds, eh? You must know some different crowds to me. In my experience, most crowds couldn't tell shit from clay.
It is clear that there would be an immediate and profound shock to our economy.
And there has been.
@HardingMike: The pound is fetching 88 Euro cents at Cardiff airport In 2015, Britons traveling to Europe received more than €1.41 Happy Brexit.
That's a lie - he's comparing 2015 bank exchange rates with 2017 airport rates.
But tell us Scott do you think that a country which has had a cumulative £250bn current account deficit during the last three years has too high or too low a currency rate ?
Of course they will. Assuming the UK doesn't get to be fully passorted then capital for DeuBa's EU investment banking activity will need to be maintained inside the EU
Yes, I know. I'm not saying they are necessarily bad things. I can see they have their place, and in some countries they might work particularly well.
All I'm saying is that referendums are not synonymous with democracy. They might be features of a healthy functioning democracy, but they are not the same thing, and the tendency to elevate them to some sort of apotheosis of democratic virtue is bewildering and misleading.
Government by referendum generates obvious problems, as Brexit amply illustrated. Calling it 'democratic' is a deception. I'm amazed how many people here fall for it.
I see that you think that, but needless to say, I don't agree that the Brexit referendum has caused problems. I think that it is a triumph for the wisdom of crowds. It's not seen that way by many, but it was never going to be.
There is still a valid narrative by which we can end up staying and still see it as a vindication of the referendum decision. We can argue that the EU had grown complacent and detached from the real needs of the people. That voting for Brexit was the wake up call it needed to get out there and sign trade deals around the world, to kick start the Med economies, and to be more assertive in dealing with the migrant crisis.
None of this needs be true; it just has to be plausible enough for us to save face.
Yes, I know. I'm not saying they are necessarily bad things. I can see they have their place, and in some countries they might work particularly well.
All I'm saying is that referendums are not synonymous with democracy. They might be features of a healthy functioning democracy, but they are not the same thing, and the tendency to elevate them to some sort of apotheosis of democratic virtue is bewildering and misleading.
Government by referendum generates obvious problems, as Brexit amply illustrated. Calling it 'democratic' is a deception. I'm amazed how many people here fall for it.
I see that you think that, but needless to say, I don't agree that the Brexit referendum has caused problems. I think that it is a triumph for the wisdom of crowds. It's not seen that way by many, but it was never going to be.
There is still a valid narrative by which we can end up staying and still see it as a vindication of the referendum decision. We can argue that the EU had grown complacent and detached from the real needs of the people. That voting for Brexit was the wake up call it needed to get out there and sign trade deals around the world, to kick start the Med economies, and to be more assertive in dealing with the migrant crisis.
None of this needs be true; it just has to be plausible enough for us to save face.
Thank you William, but it is past my bed time, and if I am going to dream, I prefer my own dreams.
The other night I asked a question about what should an intelligence agency do if it had some very notable and damaging, some might suggest fatal, information to do with the now US President but info that wasn't directly related to his links to the Russian Intelligence services and the Russian mob.
Those who are interested might want to read up about the Trump Modelling Agency, and some Trump acquaintances during that time to get a broad idea of what some Western Intelligence officials have in their possession.
This doesn't include what the Russians have either. They have been doing some hinting have Moscow that they'd like some favours.
There is a fair chance another bod is going to move out of the White House team this week.
Ivanka's modelling career is an interesting little insight into how modelling in NY a few decades ago worked.
Those who are interested might want to read up about the Trump Modelling Agency, and some Trump acquaintances during that time to get a broad idea of what some Western Intelligence officials have in their possession.
Yes, I know. I'm not saying they are necessarily bad things. I can see they have their place, and in some countries they might work particularly well.
All I'm saying is that referendums are not synonymous with democracy. They might be features of a healthy functioning democracy, but they are not the same thing, and the tendency to elevate them to some sort of apotheosis of democratic virtue is bewildering and misleading.
Government by referendum generates obvious problems, as Brexit amply illustrated. Calling it 'democratic' is a deception. I'm amazed how many people here fall for it.
I see that you think that, but needless to say, I don't agree that the Brexit referendum has caused problems. I think that it is a triumph for the wisdom of crowds. It's not seen that way by many, but it was never going to be.
The wisdom of crowds, eh? You must know some different crowds to me. In my experience, most crowds couldn't tell shit from clay.
But maybe the Brexit crowd is different.
The same could be said of our so called representatives who signally fail to represent their constituents on any issue that won't lose them their cushy number. Apart from that they vote in the way most likely to further their career.
Representative democracy is an accident caused by historically long travelling times. On most issues our mp's are as clueless as the general public which is why we get such idiocies as "lets put a backdoor in encryption that only the good guys can use"
On the current example most mps know nothing about how the eu works and couldnt care less they vote how their leader tells them to. An example was Caroline Flint who while minister for Europe under blair admitted she hadnt even read the Lisbon treaty ffs
Those who are interested might want to read up about the Trump Modelling Agency, and some Trump acquaintances during that time to get a broad idea of what some Western Intelligence officials have in their possession.
Its related but not it in itself. Bear in mind intelligence agencies in the West are not investigators in the legal, take you to court sense. They are gatherers.
Those who are interested might want to read up about the Trump Modelling Agency, and some Trump acquaintances during that time to get a broad idea of what some Western Intelligence officials have in their possession.
On Saturday I went to a 30-year reunion of our year-group of 1987 school leavers. Of the 100 people in our year group, 20 attended.
I already knew of 1 of the 100 who had died (in 1986, when we were 17), but as a result of the reunion I have found out about the deaths of 2 more: one in the 1990s, and one in 2012 aged 43. Actuarially it is not a surprise that a few of us did not live to be 48, but it has been a sombre day or two to think about those we have lost after having the excitement and fun of the reunion.
In the previous thread, someone mentioned the oddness of multiple standing ovations during IDS's speech. It reminds me that Nicolae Ceausescu got 67 standing ovations in his speech 1 month before he was executed.
It is clear that there would be an immediate and profound shock to our economy.
And there has been.
@HardingMike: The pound is fetching 88 Euro cents at Cardiff airport In 2015, Britons traveling to Europe received more than €1.41 Happy Brexit.
Would anyone be silly enough to buy euros at that rate?
Except in dire emergency why would anyone be silly enough to change money at an airport? Although once got an excellent Baht/US Dollar rate at a Thai airport. We were leaving Thailand, though! Best policy s to use a credit card with a good exchange rate and pay for everything in local currency. For cash our local Co-op give the best Euro rates I’ve found.
Comments
Now we can discuss whether they are good or bad but I don't think we can say they're not a form of democracy. A different form of democracy certainly.
All I'm saying is that referendums are not synonymous with democracy. They might be features of a healthy functioning democracy, but they are not the same thing, and the tendency to elevate them to some sort of apotheosis of democratic virtue is bewildering and misleading.
Government by referendum generates obvious problems, as Brexit amply illustrated. Calling it 'democratic' is a deception. I'm amazed how many people here fall for it.
Arguing with people with an agenda to extrapolate the worst and treat it as certainty on hypotheticals is just a waste of time for all involved though.
Obviously it will try to get the best terms possible, but if it doesn't, or gets no terms at all, ca ne fait rien. We voted leave. We get leave. 'End of'...as SeanT would say.
We're a country which wants it all and which wants someone else to pay for it.
The people who didn't believe it could be so bad cheered the first war. Those who knew feared the second.
And now the Brexiteers cheer. How bad could it be...
The other night I asked a question about what should an intelligence agency do if it had some very notable and damaging, some might suggest fatal, information to do with the now US President but info that wasn't directly related to his links to the Russian Intelligence services and the Russian mob.
Those who are interested might want to read up about the Trump Modelling Agency, and some Trump acquaintances during that time to get a broad idea of what some Western Intelligence officials have in their possession.
This doesn't include what the Russians have either. They have been doing some hinting have Moscow that they'd like some favours.
There is a fair chance another bod is going to move out of the White House team this week.
Who is to say how many referendums we should have, and when? And how binding they should be? And for how long? You can't make major long term policy decisions like that. It's ridiculous.
You have to elect representatives to plot a sensible course and stick to it, sometimes through some very adverse condiions. That's what we try to achieve through democratic process. Referendums can sometimes play a part in this, but they are neither a sufficient nor necessary part of the process. In fact in our own democracy, they tend to be something of a quirk, and can produce some disticntly quirky consequences!
But Referendum = Democracy?! Yer aving a larf!
' Today, we are setting out our assessment of what would happen in the weeks and months after a vote to Leave on June 23.
It is clear that there would be an immediate and profound shock to our economy.
The analysis produced by the Treasury today shows that a vote to leave will push our economy into a recession that would knock 3.6 per cent off GDP and, over two years, put hundreds of thousands of people out of work right across the country, compared to the forecast for continued growth if we vote to remain in the EU.
In a more severe shock scenario, Treasury economists estimate that our economy could be hit by 6 per cent, there would be a deeper recession and unemployment would rise by even more. '
Oh wait.
Do you have a source? Mine would be AJP Taylor and Max Hastings, but of course there are many other reputable ones.
PS. And I'm forgetting the best one - my Grandfather, who fought in it! He said it was very popular at the begining.
@HardingMike: The pound is fetching 88 Euro cents at Cardiff airport
In 2015, Britons traveling to Europe received more than €1.41
Happy Brexit.
Everybody happy?
Spot is currently €1.11. Even my brother (who is not known for his generosity when it comes to spreads) will give me €1.06.
But maybe the Brexit crowd is different.
But tell us Scott do you think that a country which has had a cumulative £250bn current account deficit during the last three years has too high or too low a currency rate ?
None of this needs be true; it just has to be plausible enough for us to save face.
Nite nite.
Not a business for anyone's daughter.
http://ir.net/news/politics/126254/report-ny-state-investigating-trump-modeling-agency/
Representative democracy is an accident caused by historically long travelling times. On most issues our mp's are as clueless as the general public which is why we get such idiocies as "lets put a backdoor in encryption that only the good guys can use"
On the current example most mps know nothing about how the eu works and couldnt care less they vote how their leader tells them to. An example was Caroline Flint who while minister for Europe under blair admitted she hadnt even read the Lisbon treaty ffs
The €1.41 was never available at an airport either, it was a peak mid price in 2015. The 2014 summer mid price was €1.25.
Of the 100 people in our year group, 20 attended.
I already knew of 1 of the 100 who had died (in 1986, when we were 17), but as a result of the reunion I have found out about the deaths of 2 more: one in the 1990s, and one in 2012 aged 43. Actuarially it is not a surprise that a few of us did not live to be 48, but it has been a sombre day or two to think about those we have lost after having the excitement and fun of the reunion.
Best policy s to use a credit card with a good exchange rate and pay for everything in local currency.
For cash our local Co-op give the best Euro rates I’ve found.