politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Taking the 3/1 on no Brexit deal being reached before the 1st
politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Taking the 3/1 on no Brexit deal being reached before the 1st of April 2019
Paddy Power have some Brexit specials up, most of them look like contributions to the Paddy Power bonus fund, or a long term interest free loan to them. The one that attracted my attention was the 3/1 on there no Brexit deal being reached before the 1st of April 2019.
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First!0
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Second
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We'll know more when we see the EU's reaction to the citizens rights proposals when the UK publishes those tomorrow. If they continue to insist on EU citizens (and their immediate decedents) rights being superior to UK citizens, with extra-territorial jurisdiction for the ECJ we'll know they're not serious in reaching a compromise.
which saw her lose David Cameron’s majority
Of course, if Cameron had actually thought he'd get a majority he'd have hedged his referendum promise - or did he think he'd simply "carry the country with him"?
Whose hubris was more destructive, Cameron's or May's? Discuss.0 -
Third
This looks like another bet where the small print of the rules will be critical, as with yesterday's thread on minority government. What if there is some sort of transitional agreement covering a few key issues and setting out a route for further talks. Is this a "deal", or not?0 -
You are Diane Abbott and I claim my £5....er 5p....er £50,000,000....er..IanB2 said:Third
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I agree that no deal is likely, and even if one is offered, it is likely to be so unfavourable to the UK that no deal will be better than a bad deal. It is in the EU's political interest to wring the UK's neck like a chicken, pour encourager les autres.
The weakness of the current Westminster administration (in office, but not in power, thanks to May's foolish act in calling an unnecessary GE) and the UK's dire financial condition (at least as bad as the "piggies" - some might consider it an honorary member of this group), makes this more likely.0 -
What's the definition of "a deal"?0
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Cameron's, since the negative consequences for the country of his SNAFU are becoming clear. So far May's destructiveness has been directed at herself and her own party, and hasn't yet done the rest of us any actual harm. Further, whereas Cameron mostly created despair, May has at least delivered some entertainment as part of the package.CarlottaVance said:We'll know more when we see the EU's reaction to the citizens rights proposals when the UK publishes those tomorrow. If they continue to insist on EU citizens (and their immediate decedents) rights being superior to UK citizens, with extra-territorial jurisdiction for the ECJ we'll know they're not serious in reaching a compromise.
which saw her lose David Cameron’s majority
Of course, if Cameron had actually thought he'd get a majority he'd have hedged his referendum promise - or did he think he'd simply "carry the country with him"?
Whose hubris was more destructive, Cameron's or May's? Discuss.0 -
How could he hedge the referendum promise? Remember the hysterics from the EUphobic so-called 'Conservatives' on here that he hadn't held a referendum in the 2010-5 parliament?CarlottaVance said:We'll know more when we see the EU's reaction to the citizens rights proposals when the UK publishes those tomorrow. If they continue to insist on EU citizens (and their immediate decedents) rights being superior to UK citizens, with extra-territorial jurisdiction for the ECJ we'll know they're not serious in reaching a compromise.
which saw her lose David Cameron’s majority
Of course, if Cameron had actually thought he'd get a majority he'd have hedged his referendum promise - or did he think he'd simply "carry the country with him"?
Whose hubris was more destructive, Cameron's or May's? Discuss.
Don't blame Cameron for the mess that faces the country. Blame the 'bastards' who have brought down several Conservative leaders - some of them good - in their one-eyed zealous obsession with the EU.
And each time let Labour in.0 -
You can only stand on one spot on the podium, my friend!CarlottaVance said:
You are Diane Abbott and I claim my £5....er 5p....er £50,000,000....er..IanB2 said:Third
Spreading your towels across multiple deckchairs is the sort of poor show best left to the likes of RobD
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Exactly my thought on this - and potentially a great deal slipperier than defining the various types of government.IanB2 said:Third
This looks like another bet where the small print of the rules will be critical, as with yesterday's thread on minority government. What if there is some sort of transitional agreement covering a few key issues and setting out a route for further talks. Is this a "deal", or not?
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I do blame Cameron for:JosiasJessop said:
Don't blame Cameron for the mess that faces the country.CarlottaVance said:We'll know more when we see the EU's reaction to the citizens rights proposals when the UK publishes those tomorrow. If they continue to insist on EU citizens (and their immediate decedents) rights being superior to UK citizens, with extra-territorial jurisdiction for the ECJ we'll know they're not serious in reaching a compromise.
which saw her lose David Cameron’s majority
Of course, if Cameron had actually thought he'd get a majority he'd have hedged his referendum promise - or did he think he'd simply "carry the country with him"?
Whose hubris was more destructive, Cameron's or May's? Discuss.
1) Pretending the pile of poo he got from Brussels was a 'great deal'
2) Campaigning for the above when he could have 'stood above it' then
3) Cutting & running when he lost. A democrat would have said 'The people have decided, time to get on with implementing their decision' instead of retiring from the fray. He could have made clear that he would stand down once Brexit was agreed.
In comparison all May has done is hurt the Tory Party, which will recover, and herself, fatally.0 -
Plus confusing his party's short and long-term strategic interests. Had he taken a less ruthless attitude to his coalition partner we could well be into the second coalition term under one of Britain's most stable and successful post-war governments.CarlottaVance said:
I do blame Cameron for:JosiasJessop said:
Don't blame Cameron for the mess that faces the country.CarlottaVance said:We'll know more when we see the EU's reaction to the citizens rights proposals when the UK publishes those tomorrow. If they continue to insist on EU citizens (and their immediate decedents) rights being superior to UK citizens, with extra-territorial jurisdiction for the ECJ we'll know they're not serious in reaching a compromise.
which saw her lose David Cameron’s majority
Of course, if Cameron had actually thought he'd get a majority he'd have hedged his referendum promise - or did he think he'd simply "carry the country with him"?
Whose hubris was more destructive, Cameron's or May's? Discuss.
1) Pretending the pile of poo he got from Brussels was a 'great deal'
2) Campaigning for the above when he could have 'stood above it' then
3) Cutting & running when he lost. A democrat would have said 'The people have decided, time to get on with implementing their decision' instead of retiring from the fray. He could have made clear that he would stand down once Brexit was agreed.
In comparison all May has done is hurt the Tory Party, which will recover, and herself, fatally.
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Another straw in the wind on the housing crisis (which is what it has genuinely become, after at least a couple of decades of neglect by a variety of governments):
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jun/24/social-housing-poverty-homeless-shelter-rent
Does the May government have either the energy or imagination to begin to address this ?
And does Corbyn have anything to offer other than utopianism ?0 -
I don't disagree on 1), but 2) & 3) were both non-starters.CarlottaVance said:
I do blame Cameron for:JosiasJessop said:
Don't blame Cameron for the mess that faces the country.CarlottaVance said:We'll know more when we see the EU's reaction to the citizens rights proposals when the UK publishes those tomorrow. If they continue to insist on EU citizens (and their immediate decedents) rights being superior to UK citizens, with extra-territorial jurisdiction for the ECJ we'll know they're not serious in reaching a compromise.
which saw her lose David Cameron’s majority
Of course, if Cameron had actually thought he'd get a majority he'd have hedged his referendum promise - or did he think he'd simply "carry the country with him"?
Whose hubris was more destructive, Cameron's or May's? Discuss.
1) Pretending the pile of poo he got from Brussels was a 'great deal'
2) Campaigning for the above when he could have 'stood above it' then
3) Cutting & running when he lost. A democrat would have said 'The people have decided, time to get on with implementing their decision' instead of retiring from the fray. He could have made clear that he would stand down once Brexit was agreed.
In comparison all May has done is hurt the Tory Party, which will recover, and herself, fatally.
2) An in/out EU referendum inevitably forced everyone to take sides. Behaving like it was AV redux would have shattered his credibility as PM.
3) If he'd done that, half of the country would have yelled "stitch up" at whatever deal he did or didn't do. No. He was absolutely right to say to the leavers; you brexit it, you fix it.0 -
DUP in secret talks with Labour and the LibDems. Must be true, it's in the Daily Mail :
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4631762/DUP-hold-secret-talks-Labour-Lib-Dems.html0 -
I don't think it so much his saying 'you broke it, you fix it' as realising that he wouldn't even be allowed to try to do so himself.Pong said:
I don't disagree on 1), but 2) & 3) were both non-starters.CarlottaVance said:
I do blame Cameron for:JosiasJessop said:
Don't blame Cameron for the mess that faces the country.CarlottaVance said:We'll know more when we see the EU's reaction to the citizens rights proposals when the UK publishes those tomorrow. If they continue to insist on EU citizens (and their immediate decedents) rights being superior to UK citizens, with extra-territorial jurisdiction for the ECJ we'll know they're not serious in reaching a compromise.
which saw her lose David Cameron’s majority
Of course, if Cameron had actually thought he'd get a majority he'd have hedged his referendum promise - or did he think he'd simply "carry the country with him"?
Whose hubris was more destructive, Cameron's or May's? Discuss.
1) Pretending the pile of poo he got from Brussels was a 'great deal'
2) Campaigning for the above when he could have 'stood above it' then
3) Cutting & running when he lost. A democrat would have said 'The people have decided, time to get on with implementing their decision' instead of retiring from the fray. He could have made clear that he would stand down once Brexit was agreed.
In comparison all May has done is hurt the Tory Party, which will recover, and herself, fatally.
2) An in/out EU referendum inevitably forced everyone to take sides. Behaving like it was AV redux would have shattered his credibility as PM.
3) If he'd done that, half of the country would have yelled "stitch up" at whatever deal he did or didn't do. No. He was absolutely right to say to the leavers; you brexit it, you fix it.
Along those lines, a very good article by Nick Cohen looks at the more general bind those who subscribe to centrists politics are in -
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/24/should-we-give-up-on-politics-brexit-britain0 -
The DUP are at least giving the Tories a masterclass in negotiation.OchEye said:DUP in secret talks with Labour and the LibDems. Must be true, it's in the Daily Mail :
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4631762/DUP-hold-secret-talks-Labour-Lib-Dems.html0 -
Given our planes would literally be unable to fly to the rest of Europe I think "no deal" extremely unlikely. There will be at least a minimal deal covering those sorts of issues. It may not include trade arrangements that go much beyond WTO0
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Does an agreement for a 'transitional arrangement' equate to a deal, or no deal, under the terms of the bet ?
Another interesting story in the Mail (not my usual journal of choice...):
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4636086/Chuka-Umunna-holds-secret-talks-Tory-Remainers.html0 -
Morning all, and Eid Mubarak to our Muslim readers! (Three bank holidays in the sandpit coming up!)
On topic, not sure about this one, how do they define (or not) the deal?0 -
More "secret" talks set out in the Mail!Nigelb said:Does an agreement for a 'transitional arrangement' equate to a deal, or no deal, under the terms of the bet ?
Another interesting story in the Mail (not my usual journal of choice...):
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4636086/Chuka-Umunna-holds-secret-talks-Tory-Remainers.html
Major must have been a negotiating ninja to have met the IRA for so long and kept it genuinely secret0 -
Conservative Crackpot Coalition of Chaos - Update :
CCCC - Day 17 - 0730
Following recent events the authorities are struggling to remove one resident from her central London home after an inspection revealed that the present occupant had impinged her tenancy agreement by losing the majority of the safety fabric around her. However it appears she is refusing to evacuate the building.
The resident, that the Jacobite News Network understands is being named locally as a Mrs Theresa May, is thought to be suffering from Attention to the Deficit Disorder and double incompetence. A next door neighbour who wished only to called "Philip" told us that the woman has recently completely ignored him until a few weeks ago and he regarded her as a bloody difficult woman who tended to dig her heels in.
A bystander, a man in his 50's, who called himself "BoJo" said he knew the lady concerned and had himself tried to get rid of her from her home but at the time the tenancy was let he was away conducting a safety test on a high wire operation over the River Thames near the House of Commons.0 -
Oh Mr W you are naughty!JackW said:Conservative Crackpot Coalition of Chaos - Update :
CCCC - Day 17 - 0730
Following recent events the authorities are struggling to remove one resident from her central London home after an inspection revealed that the present occupant had impinged her tenancy agreement by losing the majority of the safety fabric around her. However it appears she is refusing to evacuate the building.
The resident, that the Jacobite News Network understands is being named locally as a Mrs Theresa May, is thought to be suffering from Attention to the Deficit Disorder and double incompetence. A next door neighbour who wished only to called "Philip" told us that the woman has recently completely ignored him until a few weeks ago and he regarded her as a bloody difficult woman who tended to dig her heels in.
A bystander, a man in his 50's, who called himself "BoJo" said he knew the lady concerned and had himself tried to get rid of her from her home but at the time the tenancy was let he was away conducting a safety test on a high wire operation over the River Thames near the House of Commons.
But hilarious! 0 -
IndyRef2 U-turn as Nicola Sturgeon ditches plan for 2019 vote to focus on fight for 'soft' Brexit
The SNP backtrack on short-term push for independence and will now press for keeping the UK in single market and more powers for Scotland over farming and fishing.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/indyref2-u-turn-nicola-sturgeon-10683726
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+1ydoethur said:
Oh Mr W you are naughty!JackW said:Conservative Crackpot Coalition of Chaos - Update :
CCCC - Day 17 - 0730
Following recent events the authorities are struggling to remove one resident from her central London home after an inspection revealed that the present occupant had impinged her tenancy agreement by losing the majority of the safety fabric around her. However it appears she is refusing to evacuate the building.
The resident, that the Jacobite News Network understands is being named locally as a Mrs Theresa May, is thought to be suffering from Attention to the Deficit Disorder and double incompetence. A next door neighbour who wished only to called "Philip" told us that the woman has recently completely ignored him until a few weeks ago and he regarded her as a bloody difficult woman who tended to dig her heels in.
A bystander, a man in his 50's, who called himself "BoJo" said he knew the lady concerned and had himself tried to get rid of her from her home but at the time the tenancy was let he was away conducting a safety test on a high wire operation over the River Thames near the House of Commons.
But hilarious!0 -
More rights over farming? That's brave standing the annual EU payments fiasco. I'm sure the farming community will welcome her involvement with at least as much enthusiasm as they did on June 8th.CarlottaVance said:IndyRef2 U-turn as Nicola Sturgeon ditches plan for 2019 vote to focus on fight for 'soft' Brexit
The SNP backtrack on short-term push for independence and will now press for keeping the UK in single market and more powers for Scotland over farming and fishing.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/indyref2-u-turn-nicola-sturgeon-106837260 -
Good morning, everyone.
No chance of an extended timetable?
F1: didn't put up the pre-race ramble yesterday because I couldn't decide what to bet on. Happily, the group and match bets I was hoping for have gone up on Ladbrokes, so I shall peruse those following a caffeine infusion and see if anything seems nice.0 -
Two or more different PMs to be involved in the Brexit negotiations before April 1st 2019 at 2/7 is interesting. Can anyone see May hanging on that long? Will JackW be giving us CCCC updates day 500? It looks pretty unlikely to me.
If Corbyn manages a coup of uniting all the opposition parties, even for the purpose of getting rid of May, and takes over briefly it is a winner. And Paddy Power and the rest of the UK economy would probably last long enough to pay out, albeit the winnings may be somewhat devalued.0 -
You may have intended this as a joke, young Jack, but it is entirely accurate. Some people have not realised this yet, but they will, eventually.JackW said:Good Morning Comrade PBers of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics of the British Isles
Whatever the EU tells the UK is the deal.tlg86 said:What's the definition of "a deal"?
Btw I laughed out lad at your Coalition of Chaos diary today. You really are developing a fine sense of humour as you mature.
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Again the small print - what does a PM have to do to qualify as "being involved"?DavidL said:Two or more different PMs to be involved in the Brexit negotiations before April 1st 2019 at 2/7 is interesting. Can anyone see May hanging on that long? Will JackW be giving us CCCC updates day 500? It looks pretty unlikely to me.
If Corbyn manages a coup of uniting all the opposition parties, even for the purpose of getting rid of May, and takes over briefly it is a winner. And Paddy Power and the rest of the UK economy would probably last long enough to pay out, albeit the winnings may be somewhat devalued.0 -
I see the Archbishop of Canterbury has made an interesting (intrusive) intervention in politics:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-403957430 -
The 3/1 is fabulous value, because the chance of a three or six month extension happening (especially if talks are going reasonably well) has to be extremely high.0
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Morning, Mr.DMorris_Dancer said:Good morning, everyone.
No chance of an extended timetable?
F1: didn't put up the pre-race ramble yesterday because I couldn't decide what to bet on. Happily, the group and match bets I was hoping for have gone up on Ladbrokes, so I shall peruse those following a caffeine infusion and see if anything seems nice.
One thing worth bearing in mind is that it seems Ferrari, as they were using older engines, may not have had access to the special qualifying engine mode - which can only be used a limited number of times before lunching the engine. They should be a bit more on the pace during the racethough they also have a slightly higher risk of engine failure.
I don't think Vettel has much of a chance of winning, though.
I'm chary of betting on the race, as I can see podium positions being influenced by the almost inevitable crashes...
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Mr. B, I know that was true for Vettel, but thought Raikkonen had a fresher engine?
Got two potential bets in mind.
Edited extra bit: hedging now four stakes better than not hedging, for the season so far.0 -
If we look at the behaviour of the EU post Brexit I'm genuinely amazed that people on here still want to be a part of it. Actually I don't believe they do, their position is so entrenched they could never admit what a fetid organisation the EU is.0
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@ydoethur ..@CarlottaVance .. @Peter_the_Punter
Thank you.
Mrs JackW says that as I enter late middle age ..
.. I doing all my best work in bed in the early morning ...
Oh er missus ...0 -
On the subject of fine print BFEX has a market for Brexit to happen by 0000 on 29/3/19, but doesn't A50 expire later that day at 2400?
3/1 on this is good but I seem to be on the PP radar after this years successes on Macron and GE, so limited to 6 quid. It's like they don't want my money
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I think that is a lot less ambiguous than "deal". Any new PM is going to be on the first plane to Brussels, if only to discuss what happens next. That will make them "involved".IanB2 said:
Again the small print - what does a PM have to do to qualify as "being involved"?DavidL said:Two or more different PMs to be involved in the Brexit negotiations before April 1st 2019 at 2/7 is interesting. Can anyone see May hanging on that long? Will JackW be giving us CCCC updates day 500? It looks pretty unlikely to me.
If Corbyn manages a coup of uniting all the opposition parties, even for the purpose of getting rid of May, and takes over briefly it is a winner. And Paddy Power and the rest of the UK economy would probably last long enough to pay out, albeit the winnings may be somewhat devalued.0 -
I have always maintained that it wasn't a negotiation more a take it or leave it situation to be scorned widley on here. They have known since Cameron called the referendum it was a possibility and have decided what they want. Its a shame we have to go through 18 months of sham negotiations to reach the already determined outcome.Peter_the_Punter said:
You may have intended this as a joke, young Jack, but it is entirely accurate. Some people have not realised this yet, but they will, eventually.JackW said:Good Morning Comrade PBers of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics of the British Isles
Whatever the EU tells the UK is the deal.tlg86 said:What's the definition of "a deal"?
Btw I laughed out lad at your Coalition of Chaos diary today. You really are developing a fine sense of humour as you mature.0 -
No deal by 1 April 2019 is considerably better than a 3/1 shot. There has to be a decent chance of an extension to negotiations. And just because a crash out would be catastrophically bad doesn't mean it's impossible or even particularly unlikely.0
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In which case it isn't really a Brexit vote at all.DavidL said:
I think that is a lot less ambiguous than "deal". Any new PM is going to be on the first plane to Brussels, if only to discuss what happens next. That will make them "involved".IanB2 said:
Again the small print - what does a PM have to do to qualify as "being involved"?DavidL said:Two or more different PMs to be involved in the Brexit negotiations before April 1st 2019 at 2/7 is interesting. Can anyone see May hanging on that long? Will JackW be giving us CCCC updates day 500? It looks pretty unlikely to me.
If Corbyn manages a coup of uniting all the opposition parties, even for the purpose of getting rid of May, and takes over briefly it is a winner. And Paddy Power and the rest of the UK economy would probably last long enough to pay out, albeit the winnings may be somewhat devalued.
It isn't impossible Corbyn could suddenly find himself PM and simply propose an election. A small risk to this bet, depending on its rules.0 -
On the contrary what we see in the EU is strong and stable government, with vision and an increasingly strong economy.freetochoose said:If we look at the behaviour of the EU post Brexit I'm genuinely amazed that people on here still want to be a part of it. Actually I don't believe they do, their position is so entrenched they could never admit what a fetid organisation the EU is.
It would be too dangerous for our democracy to ignore the referendum result though.0 -
If a diamond Brexit crash out was looming would the unspeakable subject of A50 Revocation not come up?0
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Betting Post
F1: just the one tip for the race. But who have I backed to beat his team mate? Read on to have the mystery revealed!*:
http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2017/06/azerbaijan-pre-race-2017.html
*It's Vandoorne.0 -
The EU is doing exactly what we are doing: it's acting in its own best interest.freetochoose said:If we look at the behaviour of the EU post Brexit I'm genuinely amazed that people on here still want to be a part of it. Actually I don't believe they do, their position is so entrenched they could never admit what a fetid organisation the EU is.
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That struck me as 'brave' too......a period of silence on farming while they fix their current mess would appear wiser.....DavidL said:
More rights over farming? That's brave standing the annual EU payments fiasco. I'm sure the farming community will welcome her involvement with at least as much enthusiasm as they did on June 8th.CarlottaVance said:IndyRef2 U-turn as Nicola Sturgeon ditches plan for 2019 vote to focus on fight for 'soft' Brexit
The SNP backtrack on short-term push for independence and will now press for keeping the UK in single market and more powers for Scotland over farming and fishing.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/indyref2-u-turn-nicola-sturgeon-106837260 -
Flying today, nursing a pretty awful hangover. We drank 5 bottles of wine between two people last night. No regrets. At least until we take off, it's only 22 hours to Melbourne.
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Some on here have suggested we'll rejoin soon, I'd love to see somebody making a positive case for joining.rcs1000 said:
The EU is doing exactly what we are doing: it's acting in its own best interest.freetochoose said:If we look at the behaviour of the EU post Brexit I'm genuinely amazed that people on here still want to be a part of it. Actually I don't believe they do, their position is so entrenched they could never admit what a fetid organisation the EU is.
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Surely that should read: The EU is doing exactly what we are not doing, acting in its own best interest?rcs1000 said:
The EU is doing exactly what we are doing: it's acting in its own best interest.freetochoose said:If we look at the behaviour of the EU post Brexit I'm genuinely amazed that people on here still want to be a part of it. Actually I don't believe they do, their position is so entrenched they could never admit what a fetid organisation the EU is.
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I don't see why other parties would accept this now except perhaps the SNP and PC. Also NI parties. Basically, it will get the Tories off the hook.Morris_Dancer said:I see the Archbishop of Canterbury has made an interesting (intrusive) intervention in politics:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-403957430 -
3/1 looks good, if there is decent progress being made and both sides need an extra 6 months to finish up then I'm sure it wouldn't be an issue. I'll probably get all of £3.29 on though.AlastairMeeks said:No deal by 1 April 2019 is considerably better than a 3/1 shot. There has to be a decent chance of an extension to negotiations. And just because a crash out would be catastrophically bad doesn't mean it's impossible or even particularly unlikely.
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That is nonsense. Each side has their own decisions to make. As an example the EU apparently want their citizens to have the right to have their rights in the UK to be determined by the CJE. The UK will not agree to that and will decide itself what rights those EU citizens will have, as will the EU in respect of the UK citizens resident in their countries.nichomar said:
I have always maintained that it wasn't a negotiation more a take it or leave it situation to be scorned widley on here. They have known since Cameron called the referendum it was a possibility and have decided what they want. Its a shame we have to go through 18 months of sham negotiations to reach the already determined outcome.Peter_the_Punter said:
You may have intended this as a joke, young Jack, but it is entirely accurate. Some people have not realised this yet, but they will, eventually.JackW said:Good Morning Comrade PBers of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics of the British Isles
Whatever the EU tells the UK is the deal.tlg86 said:What's the definition of "a deal"?
Btw I laughed out lad at your Coalition of Chaos diary today. You really are developing a fine sense of humour as you mature.0 -
More misnomers.foxinsoxuk said:
On the contrary what we see in the EU is strong and stable government, with vision and an increasingly strong economy.freetochoose said:If we look at the behaviour of the EU post Brexit I'm genuinely amazed that people on here still want to be a part of it. Actually I don't believe they do, their position is so entrenched they could never admit what a fetid organisation the EU is.
It would be too dangerous for our democracy to ignore the referendum result though.
Some countries within the EU are doing well, others aren't - why do we need to pay to trade with countries such as Greece?
Free trade is always the best option.0 -
I was wondering that.tlg86 said:What's the definition of "a deal"?
The only value in these odds is Theresa still being PM when we leave - if leave means end of March 20190 -
The strategic case is as strong as ever. Influence in the world over the century is going to concentrate upon a few major power blocs. Better inside than outside.freetochoose said:
Some on here have suggested we'll rejoin soon, I'd love to see somebody making a positive case for joining.rcs1000 said:
The EU is doing exactly what we are doing: it's acting in its own best interest.freetochoose said:If we look at the behaviour of the EU post Brexit I'm genuinely amazed that people on here still want to be a part of it. Actually I don't believe they do, their position is so entrenched they could never admit what a fetid organisation the EU is.
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Which is exactly what the Maybot 1.0 (pre 24/6/16 model) was programmed to espouse.foxinsoxuk said:
Surely that should read: The EU is doing exactly what we are not doing, acting in its own best interest?rcs1000 said:
The EU is doing exactly what we are doing: it's acting in its own best interest.freetochoose said:If we look at the behaviour of the EU post Brexit I'm genuinely amazed that people on here still want to be a part of it. Actually I don't believe they do, their position is so entrenched they could never admit what a fetid organisation the EU is.
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I knew it myself, but Prof. Bogdanor's lecture shown on BBC Parliament yesterday confirmed it that Britain has virtually no leverage in its negotiations with the EU.
The drunk-on-patriotism PBTories may go on about being the 5th or 6th largest economy in the world but the EU deals with and very successfully with the US and China.0 -
Because he didn't do 2 he couldn't avoid doing 3. That was his big mistake.CarlottaVance said:
I do blame Cameron for:JosiasJessop said:
Don't blame Cameron for the mess that faces the country.CarlottaVance said:We'll know more when we see the EU's reaction to the citizens rights proposals when the UK publishes those tomorrow. If they continue to insist on EU citizens (and their immediate decedents) rights being superior to UK citizens, with extra-territorial jurisdiction for the ECJ we'll know they're not serious in reaching a compromise.
which saw her lose David Cameron’s majority
Of course, if Cameron had actually thought he'd get a majority he'd have hedged his referendum promise - or did he think he'd simply "carry the country with him"?
Whose hubris was more destructive, Cameron's or May's? Discuss.
1) Pretending the pile of poo he got from Brussels was a 'great deal'
2) Campaigning for the above when he could have 'stood above it' then
3) Cutting & running when he lost. A democrat would have said 'The people have decided, time to get on with implementing their decision' instead of retiring from the fray. He could have made clear that he would stand down once Brexit was agreed.
In comparison all May has done is hurt the Tory Party, which will recover, and herself, fatally.0 -
Which is why Single Market Membership is in our interest. We should be part of the team writing the rules.freetochoose said:
More misnomers.foxinsoxuk said:
On the contrary what we see in the EU is strong and stable government, with vision and an increasingly strong economy.freetochoose said:If we look at the behaviour of the EU post Brexit I'm genuinely amazed that people on here still want to be a part of it. Actually I don't believe they do, their position is so entrenched they could never admit what a fetid organisation the EU is.
It would be too dangerous for our democracy to ignore the referendum result though.
Some countries within the EU are doing well, others aren't - why do we need to pay to trade with countries such as Greece?
Free trade is always the best option.
Brexit will be the single most self destructive act on British influence since Suez.0 -
@foxinsox
Perhaps you could list the member states that you consider to be strong and stable with an increasingly strong economy.0 -
Beyond the fact of Brexit, which absolutely is not in our interest. Even with an extension to negotiations there will likely be a partial agreement along with the extension. It depends on how you define "no deal"rcs1000 said:
The EU is doing exactly what we are doing: it's acting in its own best interest.freetochoose said:If we look at the behaviour of the EU post Brexit I'm genuinely amazed that people on here still want to be a part of it. Actually I don't believe they do, their position is so entrenched they could never admit what a fetid organisation the EU is.
0 -
If you're writing rules its not free trade.foxinsoxuk said:
Which is why Single Market Membership is in our interest. We should be part of the team writing the rules.freetochoose said:
More misnomers.foxinsoxuk said:
On the contrary what we see in the EU is strong and stable government, with vision and an increasingly strong economy.freetochoose said:If we look at the behaviour of the EU post Brexit I'm genuinely amazed that people on here still want to be a part of it. Actually I don't believe they do, their position is so entrenched they could never admit what a fetid organisation the EU is.
It would be too dangerous for our democracy to ignore the referendum result though.
Some countries within the EU are doing well, others aren't - why do we need to pay to trade with countries such as Greece?
Free trade is always the best option.
Brexit will be the single most self destructive act on British influence since Suez.0 -
Mr 1000,
"The EU is doing exactly what we are doing: it's acting in its own best interest."
Of course it is. They also have a big advantage at the moment - they don't have about 10 - 15% of their population (including the BBC) actively hoping they'll fail. Strange negotiations where you have a bunch of people demanding to be involved on your side, yet they support the other side.
"We demand a 'soft' Brexit." "What do you want?" "Either a complete failure, a reversal of the referendum, or a leave in name only."
Yup, that's a recipe for a resounding success.
Que sera sera. but I do fear for democracy.0 -
Mr. Surbiton, it's an oddly specific intervention from Welby. I do wonder about him coming out with something like that.0
-
He couldn't do 2. It was politically impossible.View_From_Cumbria said:
Because he didn't do 2 he couldn't avoid doing 3. That was his big mistake.CarlottaVance said:
I do blame Cameron for:JosiasJessop said:
Don't blame Cameron for the mess that faces the country.CarlottaVance said:We'll know more when we see the EU's reaction to the citizens rights proposals when the UK publishes those tomorrow. If they continue to insist on EU citizens (and their immediate decedents) rights being superior to UK citizens, with extra-territorial jurisdiction for the ECJ we'll know they're not serious in reaching a compromise.
which saw her lose David Cameron’s majority
Of course, if Cameron had actually thought he'd get a majority he'd have hedged his referendum promise - or did he think he'd simply "carry the country with him"?
Whose hubris was more destructive, Cameron's or May's? Discuss.
1) Pretending the pile of poo he got from Brussels was a 'great deal'
2) Campaigning for the above when he could have 'stood above it' then
3) Cutting & running when he lost. A democrat would have said 'The people have decided, time to get on with implementing their decision' instead of retiring from the fray. He could have made clear that he would stand down once Brexit was agreed.
In comparison all May has done is hurt the Tory Party, which will recover, and herself, fatally.
Again, this mess is not Cameron's responsibility. It is the responsibility of the Europhobes that linger malignantly within the Conservative party.
It'd be good if they actually started to accept responsibility.0 -
The rules come as non tariff barriers mostly.freetochoose said:
If you're writing rules its not free trade.foxinsoxuk said:
Which is why Single Market Membership is in our interest. We should be part of the team writing the rules.freetochoose said:
More misnomers.foxinsoxuk said:
On the contrary what we see in the EU is strong and stable government, with vision and an increasingly strong economy.freetochoose said:If we look at the behaviour of the EU post Brexit I'm genuinely amazed that people on here still want to be a part of it. Actually I don't believe they do, their position is so entrenched they could never admit what a fetid organisation the EU is.
It would be too dangerous for our democracy to ignore the referendum result though.
Some countries within the EU are doing well, others aren't - why do we need to pay to trade with countries such as Greece?
Free trade is always the best option.
Brexit will be the single most self destructive act on British influence since Suez.
For example insisting on fire retardant building materials.0 -
Much more self-destructive than Suez. Suez revealed a truth that was already there, whereas Brexit creates a new one.foxinsoxuk said:
Which is why Single Market Membership is in our interest. We should be part of the team writing the rules.freetochoose said:
More misnomers.foxinsoxuk said:
On the contrary what we see in the EU is strong and stable government, with vision and an increasingly strong economy.freetochoose said:If we look at the behaviour of the EU post Brexit I'm genuinely amazed that people on here still want to be a part of it. Actually I don't believe they do, their position is so entrenched they could never admit what a fetid organisation the EU is.
It would be too dangerous for our democracy to ignore the referendum result though.
Some countries within the EU are doing well, others aren't - why do we need to pay to trade with countries such as Greece?
Free trade is always the best option.
Brexit will be the single most self destructive act on British influence since Suez.0 -
Well make the strategic case, outline how much it will cost and what the benefits are.IanB2 said:
The strategic case is as strong as ever. Influence in the world over the century is going to concentrate upon a few major power blocs. Better inside than outside.freetochoose said:
Some on here have suggested we'll rejoin soon, I'd love to see somebody making a positive case for joining.rcs1000 said:
The EU is doing exactly what we are doing: it's acting in its own best interest.freetochoose said:If we look at the behaviour of the EU post Brexit I'm genuinely amazed that people on here still want to be a part of it. Actually I don't believe they do, their position is so entrenched they could never admit what a fetid organisation the EU is.
You see Project Fear lost, you now have to make a positive case to convince the majority.
You can't.0 -
With that logic, any free trade agreement is also not free trade.freetochoose said:
If you're writing rules its not free trade.foxinsoxuk said:
Which is why Single Market Membership is in our interest. We should be part of the team writing the rules.freetochoose said:
More misnomers.foxinsoxuk said:
On the contrary what we see in the EU is strong and stable government, with vision and an increasingly strong economy.freetochoose said:If we look at the behaviour of the EU post Brexit I'm genuinely amazed that people on here still want to be a part of it. Actually I don't believe they do, their position is so entrenched they could never admit what a fetid organisation the EU is.
It would be too dangerous for our democracy to ignore the referendum result though.
Some countries within the EU are doing well, others aren't - why do we need to pay to trade with countries such as Greece?
Free trade is always the best option.
Brexit will be the single most self destructive act on British influence since Suez.0 -
Oh, but we will, just you wait and see.freetochoose said:
Well make the strategic case, outline how much it will cost and what the benefits are.IanB2 said:
The strategic case is as strong as ever. Influence in the world over the century is going to concentrate upon a few major power blocs. Better inside than outside.freetochoose said:
Some on here have suggested we'll rejoin soon, I'd love to see somebody making a positive case for joining.rcs1000 said:
The EU is doing exactly what we are doing: it's acting in its own best interest.freetochoose said:If we look at the behaviour of the EU post Brexit I'm genuinely amazed that people on here still want to be a part of it. Actually I don't believe they do, their position is so entrenched they could never admit what a fetid organisation the EU is.
You see Project Fear lost, you now have to make a positive case to convince the majority.
You can't.0 -
On long flights I buy a bottle of water post-security then get the crew to refill it so I can drink water when I want - and may have a drink or three.....who are you flying with? Steerage 'Other People's Money' or 'The Kids' Inheritance' class?MaxPB said:Flying today, nursing a pretty awful hangover. We drank 5 bottles of wine between two people last night. No regrets. At least until we take off, it's only 22 hours to Melbourne.
0 -
What on earth does fire retardent buildings have to do with free trade?foxinsoxuk said:
The rules come as non tariff barriers mostly.freetochoose said:
If you're writing rules its not free trade.foxinsoxuk said:
Which is why Single Market Membership is in our interest. We should be part of the team writing the rules.freetochoose said:
More misnomers.foxinsoxuk said:
On the contrary what we see in the EU is strong and stable government, with vision and an increasingly strong economy.freetochoose said:If we look at the behaviour of the EU post Brexit I'm genuinely amazed that people on here still want to be a part of it. Actually I don't believe they do, their position is so entrenched they could never admit what a fetid organisation the EU is.
It would be too dangerous for our democracy to ignore the referendum result though.
Some countries within the EU are doing well, others aren't - why do we need to pay to trade with countries such as Greece?
Free trade is always the best option.
Brexit will be the single most self destructive act on British influence since Suez.
For example insisting on fire retardant building materials.
I'm afraid you're floundering mate - have you listed the member states with an increasingly strong economy yet?0 -
The only unambiguous way this bet wins is if there is an extension.AlastairMeeks said:No deal by 1 April 2019 is considerably better than a 3/1 shot. There has to be a decent chance of an extension to negotiations. And just because a crash out would be catastrophically bad doesn't mean it's impossible or even particularly unlikely.
Otherwise you have to hope their definition of a deal matches yours.0 -
On the contrary, free trade is free trade, buy and sell from who you want.surbiton said:
With that logic, any free trade agreement is also not free trade.freetochoose said:
If you're writing rules its not free trade.foxinsoxuk said:
Which is why Single Market Membership is in our interest. We should be part of the team writing the rules.freetochoose said:
More misnomers.foxinsoxuk said:
On the contrary what we see in the EU is strong and stable government, with vision and an increasingly strong economy.freetochoose said:If we look at the behaviour of the EU post Brexit I'm genuinely amazed that people on here still want to be a part of it. Actually I don't believe they do, their position is so entrenched they could never admit what a fetid organisation the EU is.
It would be too dangerous for our democracy to ignore the referendum result though.
Some countries within the EU are doing well, others aren't - why do we need to pay to trade with countries such as Greece?
Free trade is always the best option.
Brexit will be the single most self destructive act on British influence since Suez.
Why do you object to that?0 -
I genuinely lolled at that.CarlottaVance said:
On long flights I buy a bottle of water post-security then get the crew to refill it so I can drink water when I want - and may have a drink or three.....who are you flying with? Steerage 'Other People's Money' or 'The Kids' Inheritance' class?MaxPB said:Flying today, nursing a pretty awful hangover. We drank 5 bottles of wine between two people last night. No regrets. At least until we take off, it's only 22 hours to Melbourne.
0 -
Yeah, not much value looking around the markets, which suggests that it's going to be a chaotic race. Safety car is probably value at any price, and the F2 race yesterday got red flagged after a crash in the narrow castle section at turn 8 left the track completely blocked.Morris_Dancer said:Betting Post
F1: just the one tip for the race. But who have I backed to beat his team mate? Read on to have the mystery revealed!*:
http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2017/06/azerbaijan-pre-race-2017.html
*It's Vandoorne.0 -
The UK will fail at the negotiations, because we have failed to prepare and have a coalition of clowns negotiating. It will be a take it or leave it deal from the EU, with at best a few "British sausage" concessions.CD13 said:Mr 1000,
"The EU is doing exactly what we are doing: it's acting in its own best interest."
Of course it is. They also have a big advantage at the moment - they don't have about 10 - 15% of their population (including the BBC) actively hoping they'll fail. Strange negotiations where you have a bunch of people demanding to be involved on your side, yet they support the other side.
"We demand a 'soft' Brexit." "What do you want?" "Either a complete failure, a reversal of the referendum, or a leave in name only."
Yup, that's a recipe for a resounding success.
Que sera sera. but I do fear for democracy.
I have said all along that hard Brexit is nailed on, and we should plan on that basis. Some major Kent lorry parks with massive customs recruitment for example.0 -
How long will I have to wait - a week, a year, a century?IanB2 said:
Oh, but we will, just you wait and see.freetochoose said:
Well make the strategic case, outline how much it will cost and what the benefits are.IanB2 said:
The strategic case is as strong as ever. Influence in the world over the century is going to concentrate upon a few major power blocs. Better inside than outside.freetochoose said:
Some on here have suggested we'll rejoin soon, I'd love to see somebody making a positive case for joining.rcs1000 said:
The EU is doing exactly what we are doing: it's acting in its own best interest.freetochoose said:If we look at the behaviour of the EU post Brexit I'm genuinely amazed that people on here still want to be a part of it. Actually I don't believe they do, their position is so entrenched they could never admit what a fetid organisation the EU is.
You see Project Fear lost, you now have to make a positive case to convince the majority.
You can't.
The roles have reversed, Cameron, Obama, Blair all told us we were fools and we voted accordingly. Instead of continually telling us we're fools you now need to make a positive case.
We're all ears.0 -
Cameron chose to lead a party of bastards. By pretending to be a Eurosceptic no less.JosiasJessop said:
How could he hedge the referendum promise? Remember the hysterics from the EUphobic so-called 'Conservatives' on here that he hadn't held a referendum in the 2010-5 parliament?CarlottaVance said:We'll know more when we see the EU's reaction to the citizens rights proposals when the UK publishes those tomorrow. If they continue to insist on EU citizens (and their immediate decedents) rights being superior to UK citizens, with extra-territorial jurisdiction for the ECJ we'll know they're not serious in reaching a compromise.
which saw her lose David Cameron’s majority
Of course, if Cameron had actually thought he'd get a majority he'd have hedged his referendum promise - or did he think he'd simply "carry the country with him"?
Whose hubris was more destructive, Cameron's or May's? Discuss.
Don't blame Cameron for the mess that faces the country. Blame the 'bastards' who have brought down several Conservative leaders - some of them good - in their one-eyed zealous obsession with the EU.
And each time let Labour in.
He (repeatedly) took the easy short term option that has caused massive long lasting pain.
100% his fault.0 -
Mr. Sandpit, think the safety car was just 1.16 on Ladbrokes. Likely, but those are weak odds.
Also, although reliability's poorer this year it's worth noting only four cars failed to finish last time.0 -
Quite. His 'Emporer's New Clothes' act on his renegotiations and Osborne's talk of 'Punishment Budget' meant they were toast if they'd lost. If Cameron had spoken calmly about the balance of probabilities suggesting the deal was a good one and we should remain - instead of unleashing the forces of Hell - then he might have been able to stay on as PM.View_From_Cumbria said:
Because he didn't do 2 he couldn't avoid doing 3. That was his big mistake.CarlottaVance said:
I do blame Cameron for:JosiasJessop said:
Don't blame Cameron for the mess that faces the country.CarlottaVance said:We'll know more when we see the EU's reaction to the citizens rights proposals when the UK publishes those tomorrow. If they continue to insist on EU citizens (and their immediate decedents) rights being superior to UK citizens, with extra-territorial jurisdiction for the ECJ we'll know they're not serious in reaching a compromise.
which saw her lose David Cameron’s majority
Of course, if Cameron had actually thought he'd get a majority he'd have hedged his referendum promise - or did he think he'd simply "carry the country with him"?
Whose hubris was more destructive, Cameron's or May's? Discuss.
1) Pretending the pile of poo he got from Brussels was a 'great deal'
2) Campaigning for the above when he could have 'stood above it' then
3) Cutting & running when he lost. A democrat would have said 'The people have decided, time to get on with implementing their decision' instead of retiring from the fray. He could have made clear that he would stand down once Brexit was agreed.
In comparison all May has done is hurt the Tory Party, which will recover, and herself, fatally.0 -
1.27 on the exchange. Probably value, even with my post-election hatred of odds-on betting. On for an Ayrton to win about half a pint.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Sandpit, think the safety car was just 1.16 on Ladbrokes. Likely, but those are weak odds.
Also, although reliability's poorer this year it's worth noting only four cars failed to finish last time.
https://www.betfair.com/exchange/motor-sport/event/28268342/market?marketId=1.1321429150 -
I am off out shortly, but the fact is that the EZ has been growing for 17 continuous quarters, and several previously sick economies (Spain, Portugal and Ireland) amongst them.The fundamentals of the Northern EZ countries and Scandinavia are much better than our own consumer and housing bubble.freetochoose said:
What on earth does fire retardent buildings have to do with free trade?foxinsoxuk said:
The rules come as non tariff barriers mostly.freetochoose said:
If you're writing rules its not free trade.foxinsoxuk said:
Which is why Single Market Membership is in our interest. We should be part of the team writing the rules.freetochoose said:
More misnomers.foxinsoxuk said:
On the contrary what we see in the EU is strong and stable government, with vision and an increasingly strong economy.freetochoose said:If we look at the behaviour of the EU post Brexit I'm genuinely amazed that people on here still want to be a part of it. Actually I don't believe they do, their position is so entrenched they could never admit what a fetid organisation the EU is.
It would be too dangerous for our democracy to ignore the referendum result though.
Some countries within the EU are doing well, others aren't - why do we need to pay to trade with countries such as Greece?
Free trade is always the best option.
Brexit will be the single most self destructive act on British influence since Suez.
For example insisting on fire retardant building materials.
I'm afraid you're floundering mate - have you listed the member states with an increasingly strong economy yet?
I don't think we will rejoin for 20 years, but rejoining the EEA may well be on for the next election. The European vision of a diverse and federal Europe is an attractive one, economically, politically and socially.0 -
"The European vision of a diverse and federal Europe is an attractive one, economically, politically and socially."
If, and of course its an enormous if, there is another referendum, I really hope this strapline from @foxinsox becomes the Rejoiners motto.
It will guarantee 90% for the Outers.0 -
Free trade is not a free for all.freetochoose said:
On the contrary, free trade is free trade, buy and sell from who you want.surbiton said:
With that logic, any free trade agreement is also not free trade.freetochoose said:
If you're writing rules its not free trade.foxinsoxuk said:
Which is why Single Market Membership is in our interest. We should be part of the team writing the rules.freetochoose said:
More misnomers.foxinsoxuk said:
On the contrary what we see in the EU is strong and stable government, with vision and an increasingly strong economy.freetochoose said:If we look at the behaviour of the EU post Brexit I'm genuinely amazed that people on here still want to be a part of it. Actually I don't believe they do, their position is so entrenched they could never admit what a fetid organisation the EU is.
It would be too dangerous for our democracy to ignore the referendum result though.
Some countries within the EU are doing well, others aren't - why do we need to pay to trade with countries such as Greece?
Free trade is always the best option.
Brexit will be the single most self destructive act on British influence since Suez.
Why do you object to that?0 -
'pretending to be Eurosceptic' ?Alistair said:
Cameron chose to lead a party of bastards. By pretending to be a Eurosceptic no less.JosiasJessop said:
How could he hedge the referendum promise? Remember the hysterics from the EUphobic so-called 'Conservatives' on here that he hadn't held a referendum in the 2010-5 parliament?CarlottaVance said:We'll know more when we see the EU's reaction to the citizens rights proposals when the UK publishes those tomorrow. If they continue to insist on EU citizens (and their immediate decedents) rights being superior to UK citizens, with extra-territorial jurisdiction for the ECJ we'll know they're not serious in reaching a compromise.
which saw her lose David Cameron’s majority
Of course, if Cameron had actually thought he'd get a majority he'd have hedged his referendum promise - or did he think he'd simply "carry the country with him"?
Whose hubris was more destructive, Cameron's or May's? Discuss.
Don't blame Cameron for the mess that faces the country. Blame the 'bastards' who have brought down several Conservative leaders - some of them good - in their one-eyed zealous obsession with the EU.
And each time let Labour in.
He (repeatedly) took the easy short term option that has caused massive long lasting pain.
100% his fault.
No, Cameron was a Eurosceptic. It is just that the Europhobes think that anyone even countenancing remaining within even a reformed EU must be a fully invested member of the Eu project.
Euroscepticism != Europhobia.0 -
He should not have embarked on a pointless renegotiation that was always bound to fail. He should have had the courage to make the positive case for the status quo, which is far superior to anything the EU will now deign to give us.Sandpit said:
Quite. His 'Emporer's New Clothes' act on his renegotiations and Osborne's talk of 'Punishment Budget' meant they were toast if they'd lost. If Cameron had spoken calmly about the balance of probabilities suggesting the deal was a good one and we should remain - instead of unleashing the forces of Hell - then he might have been able to stay on as PM.View_From_Cumbria said:
Because he didn't do 2 he couldn't avoid doing 3. That was his big mistake.CarlottaVance said:
I do blame Cameron for:JosiasJessop said:
Don't blame Cameron for the mess that faces the country.CarlottaVance said:We'll know more when we see the EU's reaction to the citizens rights proposals when the UK publishes those tomorrow. If they continue to insist on EU citizens (and their immediate decedents) rights being superior to UK citizens, with extra-territorial jurisdiction for the ECJ we'll know they're not serious in reaching a compromise.
which saw her lose David Cameron’s majority
Of course, if Cameron had actually thought he'd get a majority he'd have hedged his referendum promise - or did he think he'd simply "carry the country with him"?
Whose hubris was more destructive, Cameron's or May's? Discuss.
1) Pretending the pile of poo he got from Brussels was a 'great deal'
2) Campaigning for the above when he could have 'stood above it' then
3) Cutting & running when he lost. A democrat would have said 'The people have decided, time to get on with implementing their decision' instead of retiring from the fray. He could have made clear that he would stand down once Brexit was agreed.
In comparison all May has done is hurt the Tory Party, which will recover, and herself, fatally.0 -
On this Grenfell public inquiry - what's the point?
The governing party just ran a campaign committing themselves to ignore the main recommendation of the last public inquiry. You couldn't make it up.
Give this new inquiry credibility.
Implement leveson2.0 -
It's more complicated than rust. You have two groups. One who is convinced that we're making an unforced error but possibly think we need to go through the motions to respect a democratic vote. The other group mostly rejects the consequences of the vote they supported and the fact that we are negotiating to make things worse than they are now. This negation is all about damage limitation . One group thinks we shouldn't be there in the first place; the other doesn't accept there is damage. That's not a recipe for negotiation success.CD13 said:Mr 1000,
"The EU is doing exactly what we are doing: it's acting in its own best interest."
Of course it is. They also have a big advantage at the moment - they don't have about 10 - 15% of their population (including the BBC) actively hoping they'll fail. Strange negotiations where you have a bunch of people demanding to be involved on your side, yet they support the other side.
"We demand a 'soft' Brexit." "What do you want?" "Either a complete failure, a reversal of the referendum, or a leave in name only."
Yup, that's a recipe for a resounding success.
Que sera sera. but I do fear for democracy.0 -
Why not?TOPPING said:
Free trade is not a free for all.freetochoose said:
On the contrary, free trade is free trade, buy and sell from who you want.surbiton said:
With that logic, any free trade agreement is also not free trade.freetochoose said:
If you're writing rules its not free trade.foxinsoxuk said:
Which is why Single Market Membership is in our interest. We should be part of the team writing the rules.freetochoose said:
More misnomers.foxinsoxuk said:
On the contrary what we see in the EU is strong and stable government, with vision and an increasingly strong economy.freetochoose said:If we look at the behaviour of the EU post Brexit I'm genuinely amazed that people on here still want to be a part of it. Actually I don't believe they do, their position is so entrenched they could never admit what a fetid organisation the EU is.
It would be too dangerous for our democracy to ignore the referendum result though.
Some countries within the EU are doing well, others aren't - why do we need to pay to trade with countries such as Greece?
Free trade is always the best option.
Brexit will be the single most self destructive act on British influence since Suez.
Why do you object to that?0 -
Mr. Sandpit, at those odds, it might be value.
Still annoyed at Button for that needless Monaco safety car. Oaf.
Agree on Cameron, incidentally.0 -
Country A has regulations specifying, say, one type of widget safety standard. Country B has regulations specifying a different standard. As it stands, neither country's widget manufacturers can sell to the other country.freetochoose said:
Why not?TOPPING said:
Free trade is not a free for all.freetochoose said:
On the contrary, free trade is free trade, buy and sell from who you want.surbiton said:
With that logic, any free trade agreement is also not free trade.freetochoose said:
If you're writing rules its not free trade.foxinsoxuk said:
Which is why Single Market Membership is in our interest. We should be part of the team writing the rules.freetochoose said:
More misnomers.foxinsoxuk said:
On the contrary what we see in the EU is strong and stable government, with vision and an increasingly strong economy.freetochoose said:If we look at the behaviour of the EU post Brexit I'm genuinely amazed that people on here still want to be a part of it. Actually I don't believe they do, their position is so entrenched they could never admit what a fetid organisation the EU is.
It would be too dangerous for our democracy to ignore the referendum result though.
Some countries within the EU are doing well, others aren't - why do we need to pay to trade with countries such as Greece?
Free trade is always the best option.
Brexit will be the single most self destructive act on British influence since Suez.
Why do you object to that?
A free trade agreement would include a mutually agreed set of widget safety standards so there could be, er, free trade in widgets.0 -
The Tory party having an unfortunate number of boneheads who spend the majority of their existence beating one out over Europe was not Camerons fault. Perhaps he could be blamed for not realising the extent of the obsession of said boneheads.Alistair said:
Cameron chose to lead a party of bastards. By pretending to be a Eurosceptic no less.JosiasJessop said:
How could he hedge the referendum promise? Remember the hysterics from the EUphobic so-called 'Conservatives' on here that he hadn't held a referendum in the 2010-5 parliament?CarlottaVance said:We'll know more when we see the EU's reaction to the citizens rights proposals when the UK publishes those tomorrow. If they continue to insist on EU citizens (and their immediate decedents) rights being superior to UK citizens, with extra-territorial jurisdiction for the ECJ we'll know they're not serious in reaching a compromise.
which saw her lose David Cameron’s majority
Of course, if Cameron had actually thought he'd get a majority he'd have hedged his referendum promise - or did he think he'd simply "carry the country with him"?
Whose hubris was more destructive, Cameron's or May's? Discuss.
Don't blame Cameron for the mess that faces the country. Blame the 'bastards' who have brought down several Conservative leaders - some of them good - in their one-eyed zealous obsession with the EU.
And each time let Labour in.
He (repeatedly) took the easy short term option that has caused massive long lasting pain.
100% his fault.
It is possible to be Eurosceptic and consider remaining was the most sensible decision economically.
Unfortunately we are where we are with two packs of deranged ideologists INA scramble to the bottom.
Perhaps Cameron was right all along?
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O/T I hope Grenfell puts an end to the odious practice of "value engineering", where professionals collude to find ways of stripping anything out of a structure that marginally increases cost - without breaking the fine print of the specification, regardless of the impact on quality.0
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I was very annoyed at Button too! In contrast to Monaco, in Baku there's no big cranes hovering over the track and any dead cars need to be removed with a truck crane instead.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Sandpit, at those odds, it might be value.
Still annoyed at Button for that needless Monaco safety car. Oaf.
Agree on Cameron, incidentally.
I'm expecting Bernd Maylander to have a busy afternoon.0 -
Because the world doesn't work like that and becoming the North Korea of libertarianism won't convince anyone else to accommodate us.freetochoose said:
Why not?TOPPING said:
Free trade is not a free for all.freetochoose said:
On the contrary, free trade is free trade, buy and sell from who you want.surbiton said:
With that logic, any free trade agreement is also not free trade.freetochoose said:
If you're writing rules its not free trade.foxinsoxuk said:
Which is why Single Market Membership is in our interest. We should be part of the team writing the rules.freetochoose said:
More misnomers.foxinsoxuk said:
On the contrary what we see in the EU is strong and stable government, with vision and an increasingly strong economy.freetochoose said:If we look at the behaviour of the EU post Brexit I'm genuinely amazed that people on here still want to be a part of it. Actually I don't believe they do, their position is so entrenched they could never admit what a fetid organisation the EU is.
It would be too dangerous for our democracy to ignore the referendum result though.
Some countries within the EU are doing well, others aren't - why do we need to pay to trade with countries such as Greece?
Free trade is always the best option.
Brexit will be the single most self destructive act on British influence since Suez.
Why do you object to that?0
