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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Marf on Queen’s Speech day – and we still don’t if the Tories

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  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    edited June 2017
    .Pipped by Carlotta
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,662
    Mr. Evershed, a religious position is not a faith. Tell me what an atheist believes in.

    The absence of belief is not belief, it's the very opposite. I have a football position, which is that I don't care very much about it. Your argument is that this makes me a football fan.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,582

    Robert Peston‏T @Peston

    Confirmation that grammar schools, end of pension triple lock, means-testing winter fuel allowance all in history's dustbin #QueensSpeech



    The oldies get their way. Not sure that's good for the country.

    Can't blame May for that one. Cameron, Osborne and Lansley could have sorted this out back in 2010; they decided to play politics with the Death Tax instead. May is utterly useless, but the legacy she was left by her predecessor was poisoned, to say the least.

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,179
    Has the Queen come dressed as the EU?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    TOPPING said:

    nunu said:

    Corbyn ignoring May.

    Didn't bow to the queen either. Not exactly gentlemanly behaviour - which contrasts with the descriptions we read here of those who know him personally.....
    He's on a roll. Authenticity taking a slight back seat to gaining power. Wouldn't do to sully the narrative.
    No doubt shortly to address his 'peaceful protest' mysteriously called 'Day of Rage'.....
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,582
    edited June 2017
    The Queen pays tribute to the EU ...
    https://twitter.com/iainjwatson/status/877476849114386432
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,872

    TGOHF said:

    DUP asking for one billion extra for NHS and one billion extra for infrastructure report colleagues at @BBCnireland

    One billion total for the NHS budget, or just for NI?
    Just for Northern Ireland
    As stated below, if she had any sense she would make £200 a week extra by 2022 a similar policy to the coalition's £10k IC threshold by 2015.
    Barnett consequentials means for every billion spent in NI, £36 billion needs to spent in Scotland, Wales, and England.
    Er well there you go - deals off.
    You can understand why Phil Hammond is putting the kibosh on such a deal.

    He's displaying all the talent to be PM.
    He understands no deal is better than a bad deal.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,203

    Mr. Evershed, a religious position is not a faith. Tell me what an atheist believes in.

    The absence of belief is not belief, it's the very opposite. I have a football position, which is that I don't care very much about it. Your argument is that this makes me a football fan.

    Well said.

    A particular bugbear of mine is whenever Richard Dawkins is referred to as somehow an authority/representative of atheism... No thanks.
  • Bobajob_PBBobajob_PB Posts: 928
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Kerching, no Trump visit.

    But we were assured on here that his visit was a CERTAINTY.

    Free money, the PB Leaver Trumpers told us!
    It would have been, but for the election - I'm happy enough to have lost £100 @ 5-6 on that anyhow. Anyway I need him to not set foot in the country now to win the saver.
    Aye, and if me grandma had balls she'd be...
    I'd happily make the same bet again.
    I'm just pulling your chain. It wasn't a bad bet at all.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Pop quiz:

    new national policies on immigration, international sanctions, nuclear safeguards, agriculture, and fisheries.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/queens-speech-2017

    What's missing from this list? In other words, what will we be leaving under EU jurisdiction - Medicines? Pharmaceuticals? Air Safety?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,121
    If that's all they'd said in the manfesto TM would have a majority...
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Suffering today in my winter clothes as I am holding to my grandmothers mantra of cast ne'er a clout till May is out.
    Come on you old bag, it's boiling!
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506

    Mr. Evershed, a religious position is not a faith. Tell me what an atheist believes in.

    The absence of belief is not belief, it's the very opposite. I have a football position, which is that I don't care very much about it. Your argument is that this makes me a football fan.

    An atheist believes there is no God.

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    philiph said:

    nunu said:

    DUP asking for one billion extra for NHS and one billion extra for infrastructure report colleagues at @BBCnireland

    One billion total for the NHS budget, or just for NI?
    Just for Northern Ireland
    In 2016/17 health spending in NI was £5 billion. So they are asking to increase the budget by a fifth.

    https://fullfact.org/health/what-is-the-nhs-budget/

    And, spending in NI per head is already much higher than the rest of the UK at £2700, vs £2200 (eng), £2300 (wales), £2500 (scot).

    Greedy bastards.
    May should tell them to get stuffed.
    You mean no deal is better than a bad deal?
    That's not a bad deal it's an impossible deal.
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    philiph said:

    nunu said:

    DUP asking for one billion extra for NHS and one billion extra for infrastructure report colleagues at @BBCnireland

    One billion total for the NHS budget, or just for NI?
    Just for Northern Ireland
    In 2016/17 health spending in NI was £5 billion. So they are asking to increase the budget by a fifth.

    https://fullfact.org/health/what-is-the-nhs-budget/

    And, spending in NI per head is already much higher than the rest of the UK at £2700, vs £2200 (eng), £2300 (wales), £2500 (scot).

    Greedy bastards.
    May should tell them to get stuffed.
    You mean no deal is better than a bad deal?
    yes.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,121
    Somehow Charles always looks utterly "unsuited" whatever the occasion...
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Mr. Evershed, a religious position is not a faith. Tell me what an atheist believes in.

    The absence of belief is not belief, it's the very opposite. I have a football position, which is that I don't care very much about it. Your argument is that this makes me a football fan.

    You're not a football atheist, you're a football Anglican agnostic
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    Sean_F said:

    nunu said:

    Corbyn ignoring May.

    Didn't bow to the queen either. Not exactly gentlemanly behaviour - which contrasts with the descriptions we read here of those who know him personally.....
    Why should he bow to her? I don't bow to women when I meet them. Do you?
    It depends on the protocol.

    For example, I would consider it bad manners to refuse to bow to a judge, when they enter or leave a Courtroom.
    Certainly a bad tactic when in the dock.
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024

    Pop quiz:

    new national policies on immigration, international sanctions, nuclear safeguards, agriculture, and fisheries.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/queens-speech-2017

    What's missing from this list? In other words, what will we be leaving under EU jurisdiction - Medicines? Pharmaceuticals? Air Safety?

    customs union?
  • ParistondaParistonda Posts: 1,843
    I'm surprised by the DUP demands? I thought they were friends and allies of the Tory party? Friends don't extort money from friends.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,253
    edited June 2017

    nunu said:

    Corbyn ignoring May.

    Didn't bow to the queen either. Not exactly gentlemanly behaviour - which contrasts with the descriptions we read here of those who know him personally.....
    Why should he bow to her? I don't bow to women when I meet them. Do you?
    You're bowing to the Office of Head of State, not the person. Dimwit.
    Why should he bow to an unelected head of state, Britain's richest welfare recipient?
    Because she represents the state he is supposed to be serving. I do understand you feel there is a valid argument for having an elected head of state but as long as we have this system in place she represents the people of this nation in a non political way. By refusing to recognise that he is not insulting her, he is insulting the people of this country and revealing the disdain he holds us all in.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,284
    rkrkrk said:

    Mr. Evershed, a religious position is not a faith. Tell me what an atheist believes in.

    The absence of belief is not belief, it's the very opposite. I have a football position, which is that I don't care very much about it. Your argument is that this makes me a football fan.

    Well said.

    A particular bugbear of mine is whenever Richard Dawkins is referred to as somehow an authority/representative of atheism... No thanks.
    Like being Chairman of the Anarchist Society
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    I'm surprised by the DUP demands? I thought they were friends and allies of the Tory party? Friends don't extort money from friends.

    That's the UUP. The DUP destroyed them.

    The DUP are the UKIP of Northern Ireland. They thought they had power, but didn't
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    We are leaving the customs union which means the E.U will be able to put taxes on our exports to them, right?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,662
    Mr. Evershed, a vegetarian believes in eating no meat. That doesn't make them a carnivore.

    Tell me in what god I have faith? None. Or afterlife? None. I have no religious belief.

    Saying "You don't believe in God" is about as useful as saying "You don't believe in fairies, or the Giant Space Pig Monster or that a chocolate teapot is currently orbiting Jupiter."

    A religious faith is about following holy books, prophets, worship of and belief in gods.

    I don't have faith. I have reason. Things in which I believe are backed up by science and evidence, not by books written thousands of years ago.

    Mr. rkrkrk, I agree entirely. The idea Dawkins speaks for me is perplexing. I don't attend a Church of Dawkins and haven't read the Gospel of Dawkins either. I can only assume that some religious people are unable to grasp that many/most atheists are content to be responsible for their own perspective without requiring some external organisation or individual to act as a moral authority.

    A kid at school tried to claim I was an Anglican. I never did work out if he were just provoking me, or was genuinely that stupid (he was academically intelligent but not endowed with boundless common sense).
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    DUP asking for one billion extra for NHS and one billion extra for infrastructure report colleagues at @BBCnireland

    One billion total for the NHS budget, or just for NI?
    Just for Northern Ireland
    In 2016/17 health spending in NI was £5 billion. So they are asking to increase the budget by a fifth.

    https://fullfact.org/health/what-is-the-nhs-budget/

    And, spending in NI per head is already much higher than the rest of the UK at £2700, vs £2200 (eng), £2300 (wales), £2500 (scot).

    Greedy bastards.
    I think the NI NHS is in a particularly parlous state in terms of waiting times, and also difficulty recruiting. It may be particularly poorly run, or possibly just a higher burden of disease.
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024

    nunu said:

    Corbyn ignoring May.

    Didn't bow to the queen either. Not exactly gentlemanly behaviour - which contrasts with the descriptions we read here of those who know him personally.....
    Why should he bow to her? I don't bow to women when I meet them. Do you?
    You're bowing to the Office of Head of State, not the person. Dimwit.
    Why should he bow to an unelected head of state, Britain's richest welfare recipient?
    Because she represents the state he is supposed to be serving. I do understand you feel there is a valid argument for having an elected head of state but as long as we have this system in place she represents the people of this nation in a non political way. By refusing to recognise that he is not insulting her, he is insulting the people of this country and revealing the disdain he holds us all in.
    There is no need to bow to her to recognise that.
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    You should only ever bow to the Almighty.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,122
    nunu said:

    We are leaving the customs union which means the E.U will be able to put taxes on our exports to them, right?

    Yes, but no higher (or lower) than the tariffs to other nations for the same products. I think.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,662
    Mr. Charles, ha, I wrote my Anglican comment before seeing yours.

    You're right. I am mostly a football agnostic.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    Aye, and if me grandma had balls she'd be...

    ... playing ladies' tennis at Wimbledon?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,188

    I'm surprised by the DUP demands? I thought they were friends and allies of the Tory party? Friends don't extort money from friends.

    Mrs May screwed up and confused the DUP with the UUP.
  • DadgeDadge Posts: 2,052

    Has the Queen come dressed as the EU?

    Ha. Indeed. Could hardly be accidental. Our EU friends will certainly consider it to be a strong message.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    GIN1138 said:

    Somehow Charles always looks utterly "unsuited" whatever the occasion...
    The Prince of Wales was looking directly at Theresa, Jezza and Tim.

    Enough to put anyone off their lunch !!
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,179

    I'm surprised by the DUP demands? I thought they were friends and allies of the Tory party? Friends don't extort money from friends.

    Mrs May screwed up and confused the DUP with the UUP.
    Of all the mistakes she's made, that's the one that's the most damning. How could she get confused?
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039

    I'm surprised by the DUP demands? I thought they were friends and allies of the Tory party? Friends don't extort money from friends.

    Mrs May screwed up and confused the DUP with the UUP.
    Of all the mistakes she's made, that's the one that's the most damning. How could she get confused?
    Whoooosh.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    Dadge said:

    Has the Queen come dressed as the EU?

    Ha. Indeed. Could hardly be accidental. Our EU friends will certainly consider it to be a strong message.
    I think we know from her previous comments she isn't the biggest EU fan.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,253
    edited June 2017

    Mr. Evershed, absolutely unacceptable.

    Going along with C of E as the established church is one thing. Specifically excluding non-theists through this mealy-mouthed, weak-kneed nonsense of 'faith' (as Charles reportedly wants to change the coronation vow from Defender of the Faith to Defender of Faith) is bullshit. I don't mind the established church having some measure of privilege for historical, cultural and contemporary reasons.

    I do mind atheism/agnosis being treated as second class compared to every damned religion (which includes Scientology).

    Is the absence of faith not itself a faith?
    No it is not. Faith means belief in something that cannot be proved, for which there is no direct evidence. If one accepts that one will not believe anything without evidence then by definition that is not faith. This applies not only in the religious context but of course it is there that it is most prevalent.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,284
    nunu said:

    You should only ever bow to the Almighty.

    And if one doesn't believe in an'almighty'?
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,656

    GIN1138 said:

    What a lot of utter guff our constitutional traditions are

    I enjoy all the traditions.

    Nobody puts on a ceremony like the Brits.
    It's all a little bit unseemly though when set against the real tragedy seen in the last few weeks. The news channels wheeling out the stuffed shirts to waffle about protocol in plumb accents and the need for the speech to be written onto goatskin paper. Is that really what a modern society is about?
    No, of course it's not what a modern society is about. The purpose of the ceremony is the precise opposite: to reinforce that we are an ancient society with roots, history and common bonds.

    If we wanted to do it on a modern, efficient way, it could have simply been e-mailed to MPs and peers. And we'd have been much the poorer for it.
  • kurtjesterkurtjester Posts: 121

    I'm surprised by the DUP demands? I thought they were friends and allies of the Tory party? Friends don't extort money from friends.

    Mrs May screwed up and confused the DUP with the UUP.
    Of all the mistakes she's made, that's the one that's the most damning. How could she get confused?
    Her predecessor was confused about which railway station he was in when he bought a Cornish pasty. Anything's possible.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760

    I'm surprised by the DUP demands? I thought they were friends and allies of the Tory party? Friends don't extort money from friends.

    Mrs May screwed up and confused the DUP with the UUP.
    Of all the mistakes she's made, that's the one that's the most damning. How could she get confused?
    Her predecessor was confused about which railway station he was in when he bought a Cornish pasty. Anything's possible.
    and which football team he supported
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    Mr. Evershed, a religious position is not a faith. Tell me what an atheist believes in.

    The absence of belief is not belief, it's the very opposite. I have a football position, which is that I don't care very much about it. Your argument is that this makes me a football fan.

    An atheist believes there is no God.

    There could be an axe murderer creeping up behind you right now. Do you believe there isn't, or are you careful to state you neither believe nor disbelieve in him? Is there actually any practical difference between those two positions? And if there is, why aren't you more afraid?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,662
    Anyway, I must be off to worship the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

    May you all be touched by His Noodley Appendage.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,253
    nunu said:

    nunu said:

    Corbyn ignoring May.

    Didn't bow to the queen either. Not exactly gentlemanly behaviour - which contrasts with the descriptions we read here of those who know him personally.....
    Why should he bow to her? I don't bow to women when I meet them. Do you?
    You're bowing to the Office of Head of State, not the person. Dimwit.
    Why should he bow to an unelected head of state, Britain's richest welfare recipient?
    Because she represents the state he is supposed to be serving. I do understand you feel there is a valid argument for having an elected head of state but as long as we have this system in place she represents the people of this nation in a non political way. By refusing to recognise that he is not insulting her, he is insulting the people of this country and revealing the disdain he holds us all in.
    There is no need to bow to her to recognise that.
    It is showing respect for the state that he is supposed to be serving. You and I might reasonably say that we will not do that but we are not serving the state. He is. Indeed he wants to be the State's Prime-Minister. If he cannot show respect for the state then he has no right wanting to serve it.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited June 2017

    Suffering today in my winter clothes as I am holding to my grandmothers mantra of cast ne'er a clout till May is out.
    Come on you old bag, it's boiling!

    You do realise that it's been June for three weeks now, right? Clouts may safely be cast.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,121
    JackW said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Somehow Charles always looks utterly "unsuited" whatever the occasion...
    The Prince of Wales was looking directly at Theresa, Jezza and Tim.

    Enough to put anyone off their lunch !!
    Have you and Mrs Jack got any plans for the Day Of Rage?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,188

    I'm surprised by the DUP demands? I thought they were friends and allies of the Tory party? Friends don't extort money from friends.

    Mrs May screwed up and confused the DUP with the UUP.
    Of all the mistakes she's made, that's the one that's the most damning. How could she get confused?
    I think she was shellshocked that Friday afternoon when she spoke like a woman that had won a 100 seat majority and not frittered away Cameron's majority.

    Remember the 1922 had to get her in front of the TV cameras to apologise to all those defeated Tories that night.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Suffering today in my winter clothes as I am holding to my grandmothers mantra of cast ne'er a clout till May is out.
    Come on you old bag, it's boiling!

    You do realise that it's been June for three weeks now, right? Clouts may safely be cast.
    Theresa June performed a coup and I missed It?!
  • PatrickPatrick Posts: 225
    Mr Wifflestick - well said on your humanism. I'm the same.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    GIN1138 said:

    What a lot of utter guff our constitutional traditions are

    I enjoy all the traditions.

    Nobody puts on a ceremony like the Brits.
    It's all a little bit unseemly though when set against the real tragedy seen in the last few weeks. The news channels wheeling out the stuffed shirts to waffle about protocol in plumb accents and the need for the speech to be written onto goatskin paper. Is that really what a modern society is about?
    No, of course it's not what a modern society is about. The purpose of the ceremony is the precise opposite: to reinforce that we are an ancient society with roots, history and common bonds.

    If we wanted to do it on a modern, efficient way, it could have simply been e-mailed to MPs and peers. And we'd have been much the poorer for it.
    And Sourdust would be out of a job
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Sadly yesterday a lad drowned in Walsall the day after another boy perished in a Rochdale reservoir :

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-40349315
  • Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019
    I can several pitfalls with the high profile the senior Labour party members have given to the "Day of Rage"

    1 Not many people turn up
    2 Disjointed different protests undermining the broad message
    3 Any sort of trouble
    4 Or worse - significant conflict with the police
    5 God forbid, a terrorist incident
    6 Any MP's or Royal retinue being harassed
    7 Labour support for any group involved with subsequent violence
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506

    Suffering today in my winter clothes as I am holding to my grandmothers mantra of cast ne'er a clout till May is out.
    Come on you old bag, it's boiling!

    You do realise that it's been June for three weeks now, right? Clouts may safely be cast.
    "till May is our" refers to the Blackthorn flower, not the month.

    Blackthorn not yet out round here.

    Of course a modern interpretation might be the resignation of the Prime minister.

  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    GIN1138 said:

    JackW said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Somehow Charles always looks utterly "unsuited" whatever the occasion...
    The Prince of Wales was looking directly at Theresa, Jezza and Tim.

    Enough to put anyone off their lunch !!
    Have you and Mrs Jack got any plans for the Day Of Rage?
    Only if Mrs JackW returns from Royal Ascot with an empty "family" wallet.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Atheists do not 'believe' there is no God, they hold a position that there is no God or gods. It's an important logical and philosophical distinction.
    I do not need to believe there are no sentient bananas, it's simply the case that there are no sentient bananas. Their non existence is not a matter of belief but of fact.
    Should the facts change then I should no longer be that thing which I was when I was defined.
    Atheists know there is no God or Gods.
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506

    Mr. Evershed, absolutely unacceptable.

    Going along with C of E as the established church is one thing. Specifically excluding non-theists through this mealy-mouthed, weak-kneed nonsense of 'faith' (as Charles reportedly wants to change the coronation vow from Defender of the Faith to Defender of Faith) is bullshit. I don't mind the established church having some measure of privilege for historical, cultural and contemporary reasons.

    I do mind atheism/agnosis being treated as second class compared to every damned religion (which includes Scientology).

    Is the absence of faith not itself a faith?
    No it is not. Faith means belief in something that cannot be proved, for which there is no direct evidence. If one accepts that one will not believe anything without evidence then by definition that is not faith. This applies not only in the religious context but of course it is there that it is most prevalent.
    It can not be proved there is no God.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Suffering today in my winter clothes as I am holding to my grandmothers mantra of cast ne'er a clout till May is out.
    Come on you old bag, it's boiling!

    You do realise that it's been June for three weeks now, right? Clouts may safely be cast.
    "till May is our" refers to the Blackthorn flower, not the month.

    Blackthorn not yet out round here.

    Of course a modern interpretation might be the resignation of the Prime minister.

    Correct. I was making a joke about the PM based on it. Yes, it refers to the blackthorn not the month.
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237
    GIN1138 said:

    Somehow Charles always looks utterly "unsuited" whatever the occasion...
    The first time he's got to sit on the throne?
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Mr. Evershed, absolutely unacceptable.

    Going along with C of E as the established church is one thing. Specifically excluding non-theists through this mealy-mouthed, weak-kneed nonsense of 'faith' (as Charles reportedly wants to change the coronation vow from Defender of the Faith to Defender of Faith) is bullshit. I don't mind the established church having some measure of privilege for historical, cultural and contemporary reasons.

    I do mind atheism/agnosis being treated as second class compared to every damned religion (which includes Scientology).

    Is the absence of faith not itself a faith?
    No it is not. Faith means belief in something that cannot be proved, for which there is no direct evidence. If one accepts that one will not believe anything without evidence then by definition that is not faith. This applies not only in the religious context but of course it is there that it is most prevalent.
    It can not be proved there is no God.
    Yes, it can.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,565

    Atheists do not 'believe' there is no God, they hold a position that there is no God or gods. It's an important logical and philosophical distinction.
    I do not need to believe there are no sentient bananas, it's simply the case that there are no sentient bananas. Their non existence is not a matter of belief but of fact.
    Should the facts change then I should no longer be that thing which I was when I was defined.
    Atheists know there is no God or Gods.

    "For any meaningfully useful definition of God/Gods not adequately covered by other phenomena"
  • ParistondaParistonda Posts: 1,843

    I'm surprised by the DUP demands? I thought they were friends and allies of the Tory party? Friends don't extort money from friends.

    Mrs May screwed up and confused the DUP with the UUP.
    Of all the mistakes she's made, that's the one that's the most damning. How could she get confused?
    But what's crazier is that none of her advisers or anyone else picked up on it. Perhaps Downing Street pay so little attention to NI normally that no one actually realised there was a difference until it was too late.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Chris_A said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Somehow Charles always looks utterly "unsuited" whatever the occasion...
    The first time he's got to sit on the throne?
    There is ample provision of water closets in royal palaces.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited June 2017

    "till May is our" refers to the Blackthorn flower, not the month.

    Blackthorn not yet out round here.

    Ha! That's a great comment. I hadn't seen that interpretation, although it seems to be very much disputed and in any case to be a reference to hawthorn, if anything - which has been out for a long time:

    http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/till-may-is-out.html

    https://idiomation.wordpress.com/2010/03/30/never-cast-a-clout-until-may-is-out/
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    Rain!

    That is summer over for this year :(
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,253

    Mr. Evershed, absolutely unacceptable.

    Going along with C of E as the established church is one thing. Specifically excluding non-theists through this mealy-mouthed, weak-kneed nonsense of 'faith' (as Charles reportedly wants to change the coronation vow from Defender of the Faith to Defender of Faith) is bullshit. I don't mind the established church having some measure of privilege for historical, cultural and contemporary reasons.

    I do mind atheism/agnosis being treated as second class compared to every damned religion (which includes Scientology).

    Is the absence of faith not itself a faith?
    No it is not. Faith means belief in something that cannot be proved, for which there is no direct evidence. If one accepts that one will not believe anything without evidence then by definition that is not faith. This applies not only in the religious context but of course it is there that it is most prevalent.
    It can not be proved there is no God.
    It cannot be proven that there is. Indeed the whole concept of faith depends upon the inability to prove her existence. It cannot be proven that the Loch Ness Monster does not exist but not believing in it does not mean I am showing any signs of faith. Scepticism is the opposite of faith not another version of it.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    I'm surprised by the DUP demands? I thought they were friends and allies of the Tory party? Friends don't extort money from friends.

    Mrs May screwed up and confused the DUP with the UUP.
    Of all the mistakes she's made, that's the one that's the most damning. How could she get confused?
    But what's crazier is that none of her advisers or anyone else picked up on it. Perhaps Downing Street pay so little attention to NI normally that no one actually realised there was a difference until it was too late.
    George Osborne said this on election night on ITV. Perhaps Theresa May watched Auntie.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,895
    tlg86 said:

    nunu said:

    We are leaving the customs union which means the E.U will be able to put taxes on our exports to them, right?

    Yes, but no higher (or lower) than the tariffs to other nations for the same products. I think.
    Except those nations in the EU, of course.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    I'm surprised by the DUP demands? I thought they were friends and allies of the Tory party? Friends don't extort money from friends.

    Mrs May screwed up and confused the DUP with the UUP.
    Of all the mistakes she's made, that's the one that's the most damning. How could she get confused?
    But what's crazier is that none of her advisers or anyone else picked up on it. Perhaps Downing Street pay so little attention to NI normally that no one actually realised there was a difference until it was too late.
    George Osborne said this on election night on ITV. Perhaps Theresa May watched Auntie.
    In imagine she wouldn't have been watching ITV...
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Unless I've missed further events it seems to be the DUP whinging in the press suggests the Tories have told them to go take a running jump and double dared them to vote down the Queen's speech (in politer terms of course).

    Which is the first good move they've made since May called the election.
  • DavidL said:

    The invidious effect of the triple lock has been to transfer significant quantities of public spending from the working age population (and their children) to the old. It is, frankly, a disgrace and one can only hope that the higher turnout of younger voters in the recent election means that the incentive to indulge in this intergenerational theft is reduced.

    I thought when the state did it, theft was considered "redistribution"?
  • DadgeDadge Posts: 2,052
    Eight bills over 2 years is a disgrace = one every three months. The UK government can't just mothball everything except DExEU. We need either a coalition or another election.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,895

    Mr. Evershed, absolutely unacceptable.

    Going along with C of E as the established church is one thing. Specifically excluding non-theists through this mealy-mouthed, weak-kneed nonsense of 'faith' (as Charles reportedly wants to change the coronation vow from Defender of the Faith to Defender of Faith) is bullshit. I don't mind the established church having some measure of privilege for historical, cultural and contemporary reasons.

    I do mind atheism/agnosis being treated as second class compared to every damned religion (which includes Scientology).

    Is the absence of faith not itself a faith?
    No it is not. Faith means belief in something that cannot be proved, for which there is no direct evidence. If one accepts that one will not believe anything without evidence then by definition that is not faith. This applies not only in the religious context but of course it is there that it is most prevalent.
    It can not be proved there is no God.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    Alistair said:

    Unless I've missed further events it seems to be the DUP whinging in the press suggests the Tories have told them to go take a running jump and double dared them to vote down the Queen's speech (in politer terms of course).

    Which is the first good move they've made since May called the election.

    I don't think that fits with them publicly making unreasonable demands like the £1billion. More likely it's brinkmanship to squeeze the Tories as much as they can
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,767
    Dadge said:

    Eight bills over 2 years is a disgrace = one every three months. The UK government can't just mothball everything except DExEU. We need either a coalition or another election.

    Why? The government and the country still run.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    I'm surprised by the DUP demands? I thought they were friends and allies of the Tory party? Friends don't extort money from friends.

    You do know the DUP and UUP are different parties right?
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,895
    Alistair said:

    Unless I've missed further events it seems to be the DUP whinging in the press suggests the Tories have told them to go take a running jump and double dared them to vote down the Queen's speech (in politer terms of course).

    Which is the first good move they've made since May called the election.

    So, not a five year term then?
  • DadgeDadge Posts: 2,052
    Suggestions that a major sticking point with DUP is boundaries. Seems reasonable that DUP's putting its foot down about this. Surprised if the govt can't just let it go. https://skwawkbox.org/2017/06/21/boundary-changes-big-sticking-point-in-torydup-deal-and-major-risk-to-peace/
  • DadgeDadge Posts: 2,052

    Mr. Evershed, absolutely unacceptable.

    Going along with C of E as the established church is one thing. Specifically excluding non-theists through this mealy-mouthed, weak-kneed nonsense of 'faith' (as Charles reportedly wants to change the coronation vow from Defender of the Faith to Defender of Faith) is bullshit. I don't mind the established church having some measure of privilege for historical, cultural and contemporary reasons.

    I do mind atheism/agnosis being treated as second class compared to every damned religion (which includes Scientology).

    Is the absence of faith not itself a faith?
    No it is not. Faith means belief in something that cannot be proved, for which there is no direct evidence. If one accepts that one will not believe anything without evidence then by definition that is not faith. This applies not only in the religious context but of course it is there that it is most prevalent.
    It can not be proved there is no God.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot
    See also: Eric the magical god-eating penguin.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,582
    This will disappoint many on the left and right, for different reasons:
    https://twitter.com/NewsmanDan/status/877490499875221504
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024

    Dadge said:

    Eight bills over 2 years is a disgrace = one every three months. The UK government can't just mothball everything except DExEU. We need either a coalition or another election.

    Why? The government and the country still run.
    The less legislation the government bring forward the better. Small government. C'mon Tories still can be easily sold as in line with your ideology.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,656

    Atheists do not 'believe' there is no God, they hold a position that there is no God or gods. It's an important logical and philosophical distinction.
    I do not need to believe there are no sentient bananas, it's simply the case that there are no sentient bananas. Their non existence is not a matter of belief but of fact.
    Should the facts change then I should no longer be that thing which I was when I was defined.
    Atheists know there is no God or Gods.

    A position held without evidence is a belief. The absence of evidence to support a contrary conclusion is not of itself remotely close to being evidence from which one can 'know' the position is valid.

    Atheists do indeed believe there are no gods (and 'no God or gods' is a tautology: 'no God' is just a specific sub-set of 'no gods').
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    Mr. Evershed, absolutely unacceptable.

    Going along with C of E as the established church is one thing. Specifically excluding non-theists through this mealy-mouthed, weak-kneed nonsense of 'faith' (as Charles reportedly wants to change the coronation vow from Defender of the Faith to Defender of Faith) is bullshit. I don't mind the established church having some measure of privilege for historical, cultural and contemporary reasons.

    I do mind atheism/agnosis being treated as second class compared to every damned religion (which includes Scientology).

    Is the absence of faith not itself a faith?
    No it is not. Faith means belief in something that cannot be proved, for which there is no direct evidence. If one accepts that one will not believe anything without evidence then by definition that is not faith. This applies not only in the religious context but of course it is there that it is most prevalent.
    It can not be proved there is no God.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot
    Right. The bizarre emphasis put on the exact way you label yourself as not believing in God doesn't get applied to anything else.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,068
    Dadge said:

    Suggestions that a major sticking point with DUP is boundaries. Seems reasonable that DUP's putting its foot down about this. Surprised if the govt can't just let it go. https://skwawkbox.org/2017/06/21/boundary-changes-big-sticking-point-in-torydup-deal-and-major-risk-to-peace/

    I'd be most surprised if boundary changes were a sticking point. Why would the Tories go ahead with boundary changes that don't benefit them?
  • DanSmithDanSmith Posts: 1,215
    Dadge said:

    Suggestions that a major sticking point with DUP is boundaries. Seems reasonable that DUP's putting its foot down about this. Surprised if the govt can't just let it go. https://skwawkbox.org/2017/06/21/boundary-changes-big-sticking-point-in-torydup-deal-and-major-risk-to-peace/

    They won't be able to get boundary changes through even with DUP support, hard to believe that is an issue in the negotiations (although who knows these days).
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    JackW said:

    Sadly yesterday a lad drowned in Walsall the day after another boy perished in a Rochdale reservoir :

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-40349315

    It is easy to underestimate how deep a local reservoir/lake is.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    DanSmith said:
    You'd have to ask the late Lord Salisbury, wouldn't you?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,179

    Mr. Evershed, absolutely unacceptable.

    Going along with C of E as the established church is one thing. Specifically excluding non-theists through this mealy-mouthed, weak-kneed nonsense of 'faith' (as Charles reportedly wants to change the coronation vow from Defender of the Faith to Defender of Faith) is bullshit. I don't mind the established church having some measure of privilege for historical, cultural and contemporary reasons.

    I do mind atheism/agnosis being treated as second class compared to every damned religion (which includes Scientology).

    Is the absence of faith not itself a faith?
    No it is not. Faith means belief in something that cannot be proved, for which there is no direct evidence. If one accepts that one will not believe anything without evidence then by definition that is not faith. This applies not only in the religious context but of course it is there that it is most prevalent.
    It can not be proved there is no God.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot
    Right. The bizarre emphasis put on the exact way you label yourself as not believing in God doesn't get applied to anything else.
    With the position exception of the belief that the NHS is the only legitimate way to deliver healthcare.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,188
    DanSmith said:
    Mrs May really has shit the bed with this election.
  • kurtjesterkurtjester Posts: 121
    edited June 2017
    nunu said:

    JackW said:

    Sadly yesterday a lad drowned in Walsall the day after another boy perished in a Rochdale reservoir :

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-40349315

    It is easy to underestimate how deep a local reservoir/lake is.
    It's not the depth, but the cold water that lies beneath a sun warmed layer on the top of the lake.

    You jump into what you think is a body of warm water, find it's cold and the resulting shock causes a deep intake of breath as one goes beneath the surface, resulting in drowning. Very common. There's an RNLI poster campaign running about what to do in such a situation.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    This will disappoint many on the left and right, for different reasons:
    https://twitter.com/NewsmanDan/status/877490499875221504

    Which one are you SO ?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "In any discussion of the oil market it is all too easy to ignore the real world consequences of the price fall that has occurred over the last three years. We might appreciate a small cut in the price of petrol or gasoline at the pump, even though its effect is dampened by high levels of taxation. But we do not give much thought to the impact of price changes on the supplying countries. That is short-sighted because the structural shift that has taken place is profoundly destabilising and potentially very dangerous."

    https://www.ft.com/content/48d0ac89-3acf-351c-88bc-d55ecf45ae6c
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,188

    DanSmith said:
    You'd have to ask the late Lord Salisbury, wouldn't you?
    Poor Lord Addison.

    Everyone forgets his contribution to the Salisbury-Addison convention.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,179
    DanSmith said:
    Surely a convention only applies if the people involved feel bound by it. Otherwise new circumstances give rise to new conventions.
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024

    This will disappoint many on the left and right, for different reasons:
    https://twitter.com/NewsmanDan/status/877490499875221504

    Thats because they're all on twitter.
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,980
    The entire "faith"/"So what do they believe in" bemusement from theists is reminiscent to me of that Calvin and Hobbes cartoon (I think it was Calvin and Hobbes) about TV watching:

    - "We don't have a TV"

    "...."

    "... so - what do you watch?"
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024

    DanSmith said:
    You'd have to ask the late Lord Salisbury, wouldn't you?
    It doesn't. I thought we already settled this?
  • DadgeDadge Posts: 2,052
    DanSmith said:

    Dadge said:

    Suggestions that a major sticking point with DUP is boundaries. Seems reasonable that DUP's putting its foot down about this. Surprised if the govt can't just let it go. https://skwawkbox.org/2017/06/21/boundary-changes-big-sticking-point-in-torydup-deal-and-major-risk-to-peace/

    They won't be able to get boundary changes through even with DUP support, hard to believe that is an issue in the negotiations (although who knows these days).
    It's the only way they can get the changes through. They'd have 326 MPs to 312. With a 3-line whip that should be enough, even allowing for a few awkward sods.
This discussion has been closed.