politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Now the speculation is that these could be TMay’s final days a
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Well get rid and my conclusion would be a Tory government in chaos,party before country.DavidL said:
I think she is doing very serious damage to the brand every day she hangs on. She should have gone already. Politics is a tough trade and she has made a catalogue of serious errors.Tykejohnno said:
Maybe but getting rid when big events are going on at this time will only lead to disaster for the government.DavidL said:
They are mad. They are fucking furious. And so they should be.Tykejohnno said:The tories would be mad to get rid of her now.
Best is to wait until later this year or next year.
What is clear is that replacing her will be a more cabinet based government. We won't have this clique knows best nonsense again for a while.0 -
Yes, I don't think he did not, no?DavidL said:
Did Jim Hacker not have a very similar line?RobinWiggs said:
Timing/sequence wrong.DavidL said:
If she stood down does Ruth stand in Maidenhead? Looking at the options in this deeply mediocre cabinet they could really do with her.rottenborough said:
Yes.Morris_Dancer said:Just checked (I have no bet on the next Con leader), and am puzzled that Hammond is 13 to be next leader, but Ruth Davidson is 9. Is that not crazy?
Maidenhead only available when May no longer leader. Davidson can't be leader if she has to wait for Maidenhead.
Asides from which Davidson doesn't want the job, apparently.
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Yes, that was spectacularly stupid and some of us said so at the time. A party with a very small majority (those were the days) and an even smaller pool of talent and she is focussed on vendettas? The warning signs were there.TheScreamingEagles said:I try and have sympathy for her, then I remember how badly she treated so many Tories the evening she became Prime Minister.
Karma is a bitch.0 -
It is, it's already very warm down here and forecast to sear into 30s by Sunday.DavidL said:
I thought it was going to be really hot? Hotter than Barca I saw (and it wasn't in the Express either).FrancisUrquhart said:
Could do with a really wet weekend....would be best for everyone.Typo said:
London has the potential to be a tinderbox this weekend.dyedwoolie said:Protesters have entered Kensington Town Hall demanding people come out and answer questions. Situation calm but simmering.
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Nope. This is a divorce settlement, not buying a carpet in souk when you don't need one. Theoretically the best available deal might be better than never seeing your children again and passing up on your half share in the house. But you are not setting yourself up for success of you start out from that positionRobinWiggs said:
No - it is only necessary for the other side to think you might do it, for it to be effective.SouthamObserver said:
It's only a negotiating hand if you are prepared to do it. Anyone prepared to inflict that scale of economic hardship on people is not a safe pair of hands.RobinWiggs said:
It's a negotiating position.SouthamObserver said:I do not see how Davis is a safe pair of hands. He thinks walking away from the EU without a deal is a serious option.
If you tell the other side you won't walk away in any circumstances no matter how bad the deal, you will get a worse deal.
If they think you might walk away from the table and this is also bad for them, you have a stronger negotiating hand.
Of course, like the nuclear deterrent, you can't declare your hand or it becomes useless.
Just like the nuclear deterrent. That's why Corbyn's position is so risible - we'll have the nukes but never use them.0 -
Yes that is a good point. Is there an official or unofficial floor on the required majority for leader?Tykejohnno said:
If she holds her seat.TOPPING said:I am extremely happy with my 44s (BF) on Rudd next PM.
Edit: sorry after the election.
10s on Rudd next PM after Tezza.0 -
The fcuking media is driving this out of control.SeanT said:0 -
That's even worse Nabbers.Richard_Nabavi said:
What really annoys me is newspapers and broadcasters saying 'X refuses to answer questions', when the reality is not that X refuses to answer, it's that X doesn't know the answers.JosiasJessop said:And what if the answers they get are not the ones they want to hear?
Even if the answers are truthful?0 -
But since last week the EU negotiators will pretty much know that the country won't wear it - it only works if it is credible that it will be allowed to happen.RobinWiggs said:
It's a negotiating position.SouthamObserver said:I do not see how Davis is a safe pair of hands. He thinks walking away from the EU without a deal is a serious option.
If you tell the other side you won't walk away in any circumstances no matter how bad the deal, you will get a worse deal.
If they think you might walk away from the table and this is also bad for them, you have a stronger negotiating hand.
Of course, like the nuclear deterrent, you can't declare your hand or it becomes useless.0 -
The EU know our hand. That's why Davis's comparisons to house and car buying are so stupid.RobinWiggs said:
But we are not going to tell them that. It would be MAD.SouthamObserver said:
Likewise, we are not going to unilaterally inflict sustained economic harm on ourselves.RobinWiggs said:
No - it is only necessary for the other side to think you might do it, for it to be effective.SouthamObserver said:
It's only a negotiating hand if you are prepared to do it. Anyone prepared to inflict that scale of economic hardship on people is not a safe pair of hands.RobinWiggs said:
It's a negotiating position.SouthamObserver said:I do not see how Davis is a safe pair of hands. He thinks walking away from the EU without a deal is a serious option.
If you tell the other side you won't walk away in any circumstances no matter how bad the deal, you will get a worse deal.
If they think you might walk away from the table and this is also bad for them, you have a stronger negotiating hand.
Of course, like the nuclear deterrent, you can't declare your hand or it becomes useless.
Just like the nuclear deterrent. That's why Corbyn's position is so risible - we'll have the nukes but never use them.
Plus it depends on how bad a deal is on the table. Surely we can both conceive of deals that are so bad that no deal and WTO is better? A £100bn bill, or £200bn or a trillion. Therefore in principle no deal can be better than a bad deal - it just depends on your definition of a bad deal.
To be honest £100 billion is a small price to pay to avoid what happens if we leave without a Brexit deal. We don't just revert to WTO tariffs, we are excluded from all agreements of which we are part thanks to our EU membership and any collaboration/cooperation in which the ECJ is the ultimate court of appeal. That affects literally hundreds of areas and would bring the country to a standstill. None of that applies to the EU27.
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It wasn't just the likes of George Osborne, but the SPADs and CCHQ staff she seemed to sack with glee.DavidL said:
Yes, that was spectacularly stupid and some of us said so at the time. A party with a very small majority (those were the days) and an even smaller pool of talent and she is focussed on vendettas? The warning signs were there.TheScreamingEagles said:I try and have sympathy for her, then I remember how badly she treated so many Tories the evening she became Prime Minister.
Karma is a bitch.
Just imagine if she had allowed Osborne to resign instead....0 -
Clearly Hammond is the best choice, as a caretaker and to take us through the Brexit negotiations.SeanT said:
People don't mind impersonal. They just want competent and human. Hammond can do that, he can also tell the odd dry joke (quite well).Razedabode said:We are witnessing the end of May.
Hammond would be a disaster. Just as impersonal.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/video/2017/mar/08/philip-hammonds-top-five-jokes-during-budget-speech-video
TMay looks incompetent and inhuman. It's horrible for her, but there it is.
Because he is the best choice the Tories won't pick him. Their minds are addled, their instincts blunted and skewed.0 -
Being stoical used to be regarded as a virtue. I thought it still was, but obviously I'm out of touch.Razedabode said:We are witnessing the end of May.
Hammond would be a disaster. Just as impersonal.0 -
Sun reporter poses as victim's friend to access Kings College Hospital. Let us hope this is another Hillsborough moment for The Sun. Scum!0
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Inequality is out of control. Can't blame two days of media coverage for 38 years of minimally regulated free market capitalist government.Tykejohnno said:
The fcuking media is driving this out of control.SeanT said:0 -
the Sun has denied that this happened. There is a lot of fake news and lies out there.Mexicanpete said:Sun reporter poses as victim's friend to access Kings College Hospital. Let us hope this is another Hillsborough moment for The Sun. Scum!
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Did they?Mexicanpete said:Sun reporter poses as victim's friend to access Kings College Hospital. Let us hope this is another Hillsborough moment for The Sun. Scum!
The Guardian report I read said they had honestly and above board secured an interview with somebody in hospital, who they had spoken to on the phone before arranging to meet in person.
Then somebody at the hospital claimed another Sun reporter tried to get an interview with the same person under the guise as a relative.
That doesn't make any logical sense.0 -
Rudd won by 346 votes. The independent, Nicholas Wilson, got 412 votes. He is a Labour party member (or was - he has now been expelled).TOPPING said:
Yes that is a good point. Is there an official or unofficial floor on the required majority for leader?Tykejohnno said:
If she holds her seat.TOPPING said:I am extremely happy with my 44s (BF) on Rudd next PM.
Edit: sorry after the election.
10s on Rudd next PM after Tezza.
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Beverley_C said:
An excellent pun Mr Eagles!TheScreamingEagles said:Infamy, infamy, they've all got it in for May.
The only good thing is that switching our PM at this stage and so soon after an election, might convince the EU that we are all barking mad and deserve a sympathy vote in the Brexit talks.
Give me strength, there will a Tory leadership election followed by another GE. We'll be out of the EU this rate before we've even got our act together. Whichever way you look at it we are are in one hell of a hole right now. Politically paralysed at the point we are about to make momentous decisions for the country's future. .0 -
Which is why a little time and perspective is needed. Cool long term judgement is needed.Bobajob_PB said:
Clearly Hammond is the best choice, as a caretaker and to take us through the Brexit negotiations.SeanT said:
People don't mind impersonal. They just want competent and human. Hammond can do that, he can also tell the odd dry joke (quite well).Razedabode said:We are witnessing the end of May.
Hammond would be a disaster. Just as impersonal.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/video/2017/mar/08/philip-hammonds-top-five-jokes-during-budget-speech-video
TMay looks incompetent and inhuman. It's horrible for her, but there it is.
Because he is the best choice the Tories won't pick him. Their minds are addled, their instincts blunted and skewed.
The better candidate may well be in the junior Ministerial ranks and not in Cabinet/one of the 4 big offices of state. Although this is harder to transition to when in government, than in opposition.
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Do you ever post anything but trite one liners?atia2 said:
Inequality is out of control. Can't blame two days of media coverage for 38 years of minimally regulated free market capitalist government.Tykejohnno said:
The fcuking media is driving this out of control.SeanT said:
The free market didn't just start in 1979 for fucks sake, and bad quality housing didn't either.0 -
Just to think, that after the 1922 Committee on Monday, Laura K was assuring her flock that all was stable again in the Tory Party. Her predictions and analysis are about as reliable as those of Dan Hodges. She is getting that bad.0
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Late afternoon all
Just looking at some of the London Constituencies with an eye on the 2018 Borough elections.
It's possible the Conservatives could end up with just Bexley and Bromley in majority control. It's hard to see Havering moving from NOC but it also seems hard for the next administration not to be led by the Conservatives.
Elsewhere, the results in Hillingdon, Westminster and Wandsworth weren't brilliant for the local Conservatives - both Boris and Mark Field now have marginal seats. I don't think Kensington & Chelsea is a certain Con hold and could go NOC.
On the LD-Con battle front, mixed thoughts - I do think the LDs could regain Richmond and Kingston but conversely I think Sutton might be lost or go NOC. Paul Scully has made Sutton safer for the Conservatives than at any time since 1992 but Tom Brake held on in Carshalton against many expectations.
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Yes, I might see how much depth there is on Davidson this weekend and pile in (against her).Morris_Dancer said:Just checked (I have no bet on the next Con leader), and am puzzled that Hammond is 13 to be next leader, but Ruth Davidson is 9. Is that not crazy?
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I assumed he would go back bench and then be brought back in....I was so wrong, he was kicked out and not eased out and then left to rot. Stupid, stupid move.TheScreamingEagles said:
It wasn't just the likes of George Osborne, but the SPADs and CCHQ staff she seemed to sack with glee.DavidL said:
Yes, that was spectacularly stupid and some of us said so at the time. A party with a very small majority (those were the days) and an even smaller pool of talent and she is focussed on vendettas? The warning signs were there.TheScreamingEagles said:I try and have sympathy for her, then I remember how badly she treated so many Tories the evening she became Prime Minister.
Karma is a bitch.
Just imagine if she had allowed Osborne to resign instead....
And stupid me for thinking the best of it all.0 -
Deja vu from a few weeks ago and I see you have gone for the same analogy we were presented with then FF3. Clearly some people's experience of negotiation is limited to the carpet market and secondhand car. As you point out that is not the position we are in and a threat to walk away is the worst thing you can do in this type of negotiation.FF43 said:
Nope. This is a divorce settlement, not buying a carpet in souk when you don't need one. Theoretically the best available deal might theoretically be better than never seeing your children again and passing up on your half share in the house. But you are not setting yourself up for success of you start out from that positionRobinWiggs said:
No - it is only necessary for the other side to think you might do it, for it to be effective.SouthamObserver said:
It's only a negotiating hand if you are prepared to do it. Anyone prepared to inflict that scale of economic hardship on people is not a safe pair of hands.RobinWiggs said:
It's a negotiating position.SouthamObserver said:I do not see how Davis is a safe pair of hands. He thinks walking away from the EU without a deal is a serious option.
If you tell the other side you won't walk away in any circumstances no matter how bad the deal, you will get a worse deal.
If they think you might walk away from the table and this is also bad for them, you have a stronger negotiating hand.
Of course, like the nuclear deterrent, you can't declare your hand or it becomes useless.
Just like the nuclear deterrent. That's why Corbyn's position is so risible - we'll have the nukes but never use them.
I do agree when buying an old banger or carpet it might be, but we aren't are we?0 -
That's been said since 1997. Trouble is, next clique thinks it knows better than the last clique.DavidL said:
I think she is doing very serious damage to the brand every day she hangs on. She should have gone already. Politics is a tough trade and she has made a catalogue of serious errors.Tykejohnno said:
Maybe but getting rid when big events are going on at this time will only lead to disaster for the government.DavidL said:
They are mad. They are fucking furious. And so they should be.Tykejohnno said:The tories would be mad to get rid of her now.
Best is to wait until later this year or next year.
What is clear is that replacing her will be a more cabinet based government. We won't have this clique knows best nonsense again for a while.0 -
I read the latter report. I stand by my observation. Scum!FrancisUrquhart said:
Did they?Mexicanpete said:Sun reporter poses as victim's friend to access Kings College Hospital. Let us hope this is another Hillsborough moment for The Sun. Scum!
The Guardian report I read said they had honestly and above board secured an interview with somebody in hospital, who they had spoken to on the phone before arranging to meet in person.
Then somebody at the hospital claimed another Sun reporter tried to get an interview with the same person under the guise as a relative.
That doesn't make any logical sense.0 -
FrancisUrquhart said:
There has been some disgraceful reporting from the media. Rather than say we don't know, there is going to be an inquiry, they have spent hours discussing all sorts of "theories", including comparing this to Hillsborough and a potential cover-up.
Freedom of speech and association is a bugger isn't it.Tykejohnno said:The fcuking media is driving this out of control.
Tsk ....
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Or even better been offered a much less central but still significant post: business and the Northern Powerhouse for example. It was a time for the party to come together and she divided it up. Now she must go so the process can be done properly.TheScreamingEagles said:
It wasn't just the likes of George Osborne, but the SPADs and CCHQ staff she seemed to sack with glee.DavidL said:
Yes, that was spectacularly stupid and some of us said so at the time. A party with a very small majority (those were the days) and an even smaller pool of talent and she is focussed on vendettas? The warning signs were there.TheScreamingEagles said:I try and have sympathy for her, then I remember how badly she treated so many Tories the evening she became Prime Minister.
Karma is a bitch.
Just imagine if she had allowed Osborne to resign instead....0 -
I've no idea if that's even feasible given the smoke and rising thermals. Still, the people wanting it wouldn't have been risking their lives.JonathanD said:
Heard someone on 5Live this morning saying the Army should have been landing helicopters on the roof to rescue people.TwistedFireStopper said:Protester blaming the Met for stopping the residents from "rescuing their babies". Someone ne3ds to get a grip of this situation pronto.
People believe too much of what they see in films sadly.
However: ISTR people in NY considered doing the same on 9/11, but aerials and other items on the roofs prevented it. Can anyone remember more?0 -
Nope, we want our political leaders to front pop concerts, lead marches of the young and hug the bereaved apparently.AndyJS said:
Being stoical used to be regarded as a virtue. I thought it still was, but obviously I'm out of touch.Razedabode said:We are witnessing the end of May.
Hammond would be a disaster. Just as impersonal.
Personally, some cool detachment and judgement is what I'd prefer. But the baying of the mob is growing ever louder.
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There is a mob mentality, it is not that big of a mob but it is still there. And May doesn't have the image to stand up to it currently.SeanT said:I'm not sure I've ever seen Britain this..... neurotic, even anarchic... in my lifetime.
Even during the brutal years of early Thatcherism, and the miners' strike, you felt the government was in charge.
Now....0 -
What is it about those the Gods wish to destroy and madness?
Just for the moment I'm on holiday in the Canaries, and, I strongly suspect, better off out of
It.0 -
How unequal are your circumstances?atia2 said:
Inequality is out of control. Can't blame two days of media coverage for 38 years of minimally regulated free market capitalist government.Tykejohnno said:
The fcuking media is driving this out of control.SeanT said:0 -
I doubt there has been an opposition that actively craves civil disorder before. It's not as if they don't have formSeanT said:I'm not sure I've ever seen Britain this..... neurotic, even anarchic... in my lifetime.
Even during the brutal years of early Thatcherism, and the miners' strike, you felt the government was in charge.
Now....0 -
Happy to believe fake news and wallow in ignorance. Thats the modern left for you.Mexicanpete said:
I read the latter report. I stand by my observation. Scum!FrancisUrquhart said:
Did they?Mexicanpete said:Sun reporter poses as victim's friend to access Kings College Hospital. Let us hope this is another Hillsborough moment for The Sun. Scum!
The Guardian report I read said they had honestly and above board secured an interview with somebody in hospital, who they had spoken to on the phone before arranging to meet in person.
Then somebody at the hospital claimed another Sun reporter tried to get an interview with the same person under the guise as a relative.
That doesn't make any logical sense.0 -
Whereas the Fire Brigade said they didn't want helicopters anywhere near as the down draft fuels the fire. Hence the use of drones.JonathanD said:
Heard someone on 5Live this morning saying the Army should have been landing helicopters on the roof to rescue people.TwistedFireStopper said:Protester blaming the Met for stopping the residents from "rescuing their babies". Someone ne3ds to get a grip of this situation pronto.
People believe too much of what they see in films sadly.0 -
It isn't a negotiating position. It is a transparent bluff. "If I don't get my own way I'll pull the pin in this grenade".RobinWiggs said:
It's a negotiating position.SouthamObserver said:I do not see how Davis is a safe pair of hands. He thinks walking away from the EU without a deal is a serious option.
If you tell the other side you won't walk away in any circumstances no matter how bad the deal, you will get a worse deal.
If they think you might walk away from the table and this is also bad for them, you have a stronger negotiating hand.
Of course, like the nuclear deterrent, you can't declare your hand or it becomes useless.0 -
It doesn't make any logical sense, why would they have to pretend to be somebody else if they had already spoken to the individual on the phone and they had agreed to meet them in person?Mexicanpete said:
I read the latter report. I stand by my observation. Scum!FrancisUrquhart said:
Did they?Mexicanpete said:Sun reporter poses as victim's friend to access Kings College Hospital. Let us hope this is another Hillsborough moment for The Sun. Scum!
The Guardian report I read said they had honestly and above board secured an interview with somebody in hospital, who they had spoken to on the phone before arranging to meet in person.
Then somebody at the hospital claimed another Sun reporter tried to get an interview with the same person under the guise as a relative.
That doesn't make any logical sense.0 -
Pre-Diana thinking that. None the worse for it of course.AndyJS said:
Being stoical used to be regarded as a virtue. I thought it still was, but obviously I'm out of touch.Razedabode said:We are witnessing the end of May.
Hammond would be a disaster. Just as impersonal.0 -
Please, please not JohnsonAndyJS said:
Being stoical used to be regarded as a virtue. I thought it still was, but obviously I'm out of touch.Razedabode said:We are witnessing the end of May.
Hammond would be a disaster. Just as impersonal.0 -
Yebbut - makes PM, steadies the ship, oversees some kind of Brexit, hits 2022 a hero, and wins, as PM, a landslide. And in any case would have to go if Cons lost so the problem solves itself.SouthamObserver said:
Rudd won by 346 votes. The independent, Nicholas Wilson, got 412 votes. He is a Labour party member (or was - he has now been expelled).TOPPING said:
Yes that is a good point. Is there an official or unofficial floor on the required majority for leader?Tykejohnno said:
If she holds her seat.TOPPING said:I am extremely happy with my 44s (BF) on Rudd next PM.
Edit: sorry after the election.
10s on Rudd next PM after Tezza.
Is how I am justifying it to myself.0 -
It would have been difficult without the fire burning, let alone with it going. All that superheated air would have thrown a helicopter around like a toy, and it would need to hover as no way would the roof have taken a landing.JosiasJessop said:
I've no idea if that's even feasible given the smoke and rising thermals. Still, the people wanting it wouldn't have been risking their lives.JonathanD said:
Heard someone on 5Live this morning saying the Army should have been landing helicopters on the roof to rescue people.TwistedFireStopper said:Protester blaming the Met for stopping the residents from "rescuing their babies". Someone ne3ds to get a grip of this situation pronto.
People believe too much of what they see in films sadly.
However: ISTR people in NY considered doing the same on 9/11, but aerials and other items on the roofs prevented it. Can anyone remember more?0 -
It's like the time of Diana's death - things are fluid, unreal and do not feel right - but with violence lurking in the background. In 1997, Blair and Campbell took control of events and the Queen was pragmatic. I don't sense we have anyone like that anywhere right now.SeanT said:I'm not sure I've ever seen Britain this..... neurotic, even anarchic... in my lifetime.
Even during the brutal years of early Thatcherism, and the miners' strike, you felt the government was in charge.
Now....
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Are you saying that 13 years of Labour government did nothing to improve the situation regarding inequality, or that the Tories have suddenly made it worse over the last 7 years?atia2 said:
Inequality is out of control. Can't blame two days of media coverage for 38 years of minimally regulated free market capitalist government.Tykejohnno said:
The fcuking media is driving this out of control.SeanT said:0 -
Ah, I didn't think of that as well.PaulM said:
Whereas the Fire Brigade said they didn't want helicopters anywhere near as the down draft fuels the fire. Hence the use of drones.JonathanD said:
Heard someone on 5Live this morning saying the Army should have been landing helicopters on the roof to rescue people.TwistedFireStopper said:Protester blaming the Met for stopping the residents from "rescuing their babies". Someone ne3ds to get a grip of this situation pronto.
People believe too much of what they see in films sadly.0 -
And the roof was, emm, on fire?PaulM said:
Whereas the Fire Brigade said they didn't want helicopters anywhere near as the down draft fuels the fire. Hence the use of drones.JonathanD said:
Heard someone on 5Live this morning saying the Army should have been landing helicopters on the roof to rescue people.TwistedFireStopper said:Protester blaming the Met for stopping the residents from "rescuing their babies". Someone ne3ds to get a grip of this situation pronto.
People believe too much of what they see in films sadly.0 -
I have - multiple city riots in (?) 1981, I remember thinking 'I imagine this is how the Middle Class feel before they are swept away'. A Chief Constable was asked what he hoped would calm things down 'rain' was the reply. Also R4 Today 'we are receiving reports of disturbances in Newcastle over the weekend are going live to the Chief Constable - what can you tell us? 'It was a typical Saturday night in the Bigg Market'....SeanT said:I'm not sure I've ever seen Britain this..... neurotic, even anarchic... in my lifetime.
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I get the impression a lot of people in London are annoyed because they voted 55%-33% in favour of Labour on 8th June but they still have a Tory government running the country, albeit one without an overall majority. And those figures include outer London boroughs which voted for the Tories like Bromley and Bexley.HaroldO said:
There is a mob mentality, it is not that big of a mob but it is still there. And May doesn't have the image to stand up to it currently.SeanT said:I'm not sure I've ever seen Britain this..... neurotic, even anarchic... in my lifetime.
Even during the brutal years of early Thatcherism, and the miners' strike, you felt the government was in charge.
Now....0 -
Thank GodRobinWiggs said:
No - it is only necessary for the other side to think you might do it, for it to be effective.SouthamObserver said:
It's only a negotiating hand if you are prepared to do it. Anyone prepared to inflict that scale of economic hardship on people is not a safe pair of hands.RobinWiggs said:
It's a negotiating position.SouthamObserver said:I do not see how Davis is a safe pair of hands. He thinks walking away from the EU without a deal is a serious option.
If you tell the other side you won't walk away in any circumstances no matter how bad the deal, you will get a worse deal.
If they think you might walk away from the table and this is also bad for them, you have a stronger negotiating hand.
Of course, like the nuclear deterrent, you can't declare your hand or it becomes useless.
Just like the nuclear deterrent. That's why Corbyn's position is so risible - we'll have the nukes but never use them.0 -
Why not both?AndyJS said:
Are you saying that 13 years of Labour government did nothing to improve the situation regarding inequality, or that the Tories have suddenly made it worse over the last 7 years?atia2 said:
Inequality is out of control. Can't blame two days of media coverage for 38 years of minimally regulated free market capitalist government.Tykejohnno said:
The fcuking media is driving this out of control.SeanT said:0 -
How about this as an idea for Hammond:
Hammond says he will stand for leader but he won't fight next GE. He'll take us through the Brexit negotiations and then step down in 2020 so new leader can be elected before next GE.
Makes sense as he is the most sensible person to do Brexit but he wouldn't be the most suitable leader to fight a GE. Also allows time for that next leader to emerge.0 -
She'd be better off getting a new constituency - Maidenhead, say. I would not have a problem with Rudd in charge. She seems to have a brain and is not religious about Brexit.TOPPING said:
Yebbut - makes PM, steadies the ship, oversees some kind of Brexit, hits 2022 a hero, and wins, as PM, a landslide. And in any case would have to go if Cons lost so the problem solves itself.SouthamObserver said:
Rudd won by 346 votes. The independent, Nicholas Wilson, got 412 votes. He is a Labour party member (or was - he has now been expelled).TOPPING said:
Yes that is a good point. Is there an official or unofficial floor on the required majority for leader?Tykejohnno said:
If she holds her seat.TOPPING said:I am extremely happy with my 44s (BF) on Rudd next PM.
Edit: sorry after the election.
10s on Rudd next PM after Tezza.
Is how I am justifying it to myself.
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Maybe it is both.William_H said:
Why not both?AndyJS said:
Are you saying that 13 years of Labour government did nothing to improve the situation regarding inequality, or that the Tories have suddenly made it worse over the last 7 years?atia2 said:
Inequality is out of control. Can't blame two days of media coverage for 38 years of minimally regulated free market capitalist government.Tykejohnno said:
The fcuking media is driving this out of control.SeanT said:0 -
We should go back to city states, much like the Greeks had. We would have true democracy then.AndyJS said:
I get the impression a lot of people in London are annoyed because they voted 55%-33% in favour of Labour on 8th June but they still have a Tory government running the country, albeit one without an overall majority. And that includes outer London boroughs which voted for the Tories like Bromley and Bexley.HaroldO said:
There is a mob mentality, it is not that big of a mob but it is still there. And May doesn't have the image to stand up to it currently.SeanT said:I'm not sure I've ever seen Britain this..... neurotic, even anarchic... in my lifetime.
Even during the brutal years of early Thatcherism, and the miners' strike, you felt the government was in charge.
Now....0 -
Which is of course how the Remainers feel also. Don't see them taking to the streets. Convoluted high court challenges was the only outpouring of emotion.AndyJS said:
I get the impression a lot of people in London are annoyed because they voted 55%-33% in favour of Labour on 8th June but they still have a Tory government running the country, albeit one without an overall majority. And that includes outer London boroughs which voted for the Tories like Bromley and Bexley.HaroldO said:
There is a mob mentality, it is not that big of a mob but it is still there. And May doesn't have the image to stand up to it currently.SeanT said:I'm not sure I've ever seen Britain this..... neurotic, even anarchic... in my lifetime.
Even during the brutal years of early Thatcherism, and the miners' strike, you felt the government was in charge.
Now....0 -
Just been reading the list of demands from the protesters and I suspect this one in particular is why there is so such tension:
-Release full list of victims of the tragedy.
Problem is they can;t release them right now, they don't know yet the full list of victims. They haven't even really begun searching the building yet and temperatures were so high that it's going to be difficult for them to identify victims.They have said some may never be identified...
Colin Brazier on Sky yesterday was telling some of those protesters about how difficult and lengthy a process it will be identifying the dead and they were having none of it.0 -
Hammond over Boris if there has to be an immediate choice. One known by surname one by first name or nickname, sums up why.SeanT said:
I'm a big fan of BoJo, but this is not the time for a charismatic joker.OldKingCole said:
Please, please not JohnsonAndyJS said:
Being stoical used to be regarded as a virtue. I thought it still was, but obviously I'm out of touch.Razedabode said:We are witnessing the end of May.
Hammond would be a disaster. Just as impersonal.
Hammond, please. Boring, smart businessman, with a faintly human wit. Soft Brexiteer.
He won't be as genial as Corbyn but he won't be as awkward and weird and sad as May.0 -
Lily Allen and the Maomentum conspiracy theorist nutters not helping,jonny83 said:Just been reading the list of demands from the protesters and I suspect this one in particular is why there is so such tension:
-Release full list of victims of the tragedy.
Problem is they can;t release them right now, they don't know yet the full list of victims. They haven't even really begun searching the building yet and temperatures were so high that it's going to be difficult for them to identify victims.They have said some may never be identified...
Colin Brazier on Sky yesterday was telling some of those protesters about how difficult and lengthy a process it will be identifying the dead and they were having none of it.
https://order-order.com/2017/06/16/corbynistas-peddle-grenfell-d-notice-fake-news/0 -
I think Hammond would take Corbyn apart in debates, too. He is smart, calm and relatovely quick-witted. He is also at ease with himself. Corbyn would struggle against that kind of Tory. Hammond is very John Major. Grey can work well if it comes with human. Major did not cuddle people, but you never doubted he liked them.SeanT said:
I'm a big fan of BoJo, but this is not the time for a charismatic joker.OldKingCole said:
Please, please not JohnsonAndyJS said:
Being stoical used to be regarded as a virtue. I thought it still was, but obviously I'm out of touch.Razedabode said:We are witnessing the end of May.
Hammond would be a disaster. Just as impersonal.
Hammond, please. Boring, smart businessman, with a faintly human wit. Soft Brexiteer.
He won't be as genial as Corbyn but he won't be as awkward and weird and sad as May.
0 -
They must be asking that because they think the true number of victims is being covered up.jonny83 said:Just been reading the list of demands from the protesters and I suspect this one in particular is why there is so such tension:
-Release full list of victims of the tragedy.0 -
They have a labour mayor.. Westminster isnt the only government.AndyJS said:
I get the impression a lot of people in London are annoyed because they voted 55%-33% in favour of Labour on 8th June but they still have a Tory government running the country, albeit one without an overall majority. And those figures include outer London boroughs which voted for the Tories like Bromley and Bexley.HaroldO said:
There is a mob mentality, it is not that big of a mob but it is still there. And May doesn't have the image to stand up to it currently.SeanT said:I'm not sure I've ever seen Britain this..... neurotic, even anarchic... in my lifetime.
Even during the brutal years of early Thatcherism, and the miners' strike, you felt the government was in charge.
Now....0 -
I remember 1981 very clearly. It never felt like the government had completely lost control. It really does now.CarlottaVance said:
I have - multiple city riots in (?) 1981, I remember thinking 'I imagine this is how the Middle Class feel before they are swept away'. A Chief Constable was asked what he hoped would calm things down 'rain' was the reply. Also R4 Today 'we are receiving reports of disturbances in Newcastle over the weekend are going live to the Chief Constable - what can you tell us? 'It was a typical Saturday night in the Bigg Market'....SeanT said:I'm not sure I've ever seen Britain this..... neurotic, even anarchic... in my lifetime.
0 -
Well quite, the problem is the people on the ground are being told these myths in an effort to stir up a feeling that the government doesn't care for them.PaulM said:
Whereas the Fire Brigade said they didn't want helicopters anywhere near as the down draft fuels the fire. Hence the use of drones.JonathanD said:
Heard someone on 5Live this morning saying the Army should have been landing helicopters on the roof to rescue people.TwistedFireStopper said:Protester blaming the Met for stopping the residents from "rescuing their babies". Someone ne3ds to get a grip of this situation pronto.
People believe too much of what they see in films sadly.0 -
She was a strong Remainer, obvs, which I have long (ie eight days) thought the Cons must have as their next PM.SouthamObserver said:
She'd be better off getting a new constituency - Maidenhead, say. I would not have a problem with Rudd in charge. She seems to have a brain and is not religious about Brexit.TOPPING said:
Yebbut - makes PM, steadies the ship, oversees some kind of Brexit, hits 2022 a hero, and wins, as PM, a landslide. And in any case would have to go if Cons lost so the problem solves itself.SouthamObserver said:
Rudd won by 346 votes. The independent, Nicholas Wilson, got 412 votes. He is a Labour party member (or was - he has now been expelled).TOPPING said:
Yes that is a good point. Is there an official or unofficial floor on the required majority for leader?Tykejohnno said:
If she holds her seat.TOPPING said:I am extremely happy with my 44s (BF) on Rudd next PM.
Edit: sorry after the election.
10s on Rudd next PM after Tezza.
Is how I am justifying it to myself.
A Remainer whom you would be happy to have a drink with.0 -
Uh-oh May looks like she's going to be surrounded in a church.0
-
Hot air is low density, which is exactly the sort of thing you avoid flying a helicopter into.HaroldO said:It would have been difficult without the fire burning, let alone with it going. All that superheated air would have thrown a helicopter around like a toy, and it would need to hover as no way would the roof have taken a landing.
0 -
A list of the missing does not seem too much to ask. They may even find some of them in the various hospitals. The vast majority of people in that accommodation would have been on Housing Benefit. There is a risk that their records were not fully up to date as the population would have been transient too but it is an obvious starting point.jonny83 said:Just been reading the list of demands from the protesters and I suspect this one in particular is why there is so such tension:
-Release full list of victims of the tragedy.
Problem is they can;t release them right now, they don't know yet the full list of victims. They haven't even really begun searching the building yet and temperatures were so high that it's going to be difficult for them to identify victims.They have said some may never be identified...
Colin Brazier on Sky yesterday was telling some of those protesters about how difficult and lengthy a process it will be identifying the dead and they were having none of it.0 -
No but he has a point. The tail end of the Thatcher regime coincided with the privatisation of the Building Research Establishment. This epitomised the growing idiocy of 'the market will provide'.HaroldO said:
Do you ever post anything but trite one liners?atia2 said:
Inequality is out of control. Can't blame two days of media coverage for 38 years of minimally regulated free market capitalist government.Tykejohnno said:
The fcuking media is driving this out of control.SeanT said:
The free market didn't just start in 1979 for fucks sake, and bad quality housing didn't either.
Since 1979, the housing construction rate has roughly halved from about 300,000 to 150,000 dwellings per year. The demand for housing hasn't halved. In fact it may have increased slightly, i.e. because the average rate of immigration has been greater.
£120 k per flat. For work which didn't even provide the much-discussed 'compartmentalisation'. Without that working, the advice to stay in your flat during a fire is counterproductive, indeed fatal.
Regardless of criminal offences, I imagine the lawyers are circling like vultures. Failure to meet details of the Building Regulations is widespread but on this occasion the govt. could possibly bear civil liability for not updating the Regulations with reasonable competence, i.e. as circumstances changed and as it became clear foam insulation on tall buildings was dangerous. (N.B. I am not a lawyer.)0 -
Seriously, you're all beginning to sound desperate over Ruth. A politician with no experience of UK/English politics. Will her appeal travel beyond Bonnie Scotland? And would she want to? Not sure I would in her shoes.DavidL said:
If she stood down does Ruth stand in Maidenhead? Looking at the options in this deeply mediocre cabinet they could really do with her.rottenborough said:
Yes.Morris_Dancer said:Just checked (I have no bet on the next Con leader), and am puzzled that Hammond is 13 to be next leader, but Ruth Davidson is 9. Is that not crazy?
0 -
There was plenty of stoicism after the terrorist attacks. However own goals and indifference by one's own team are rightly treated with disdain especially if the problem has been festering for years.DavidL said:
Pre-Diana thinking that. None the worse for it of course.AndyJS said:
Being stoical used to be regarded as a virtue. I thought it still was, but obviously I'm out of touch.Razedabode said:We are witnessing the end of May.
Hammond would be a disaster. Just as impersonal.0 -
Lib Dem runners and riders issues & attributes.
Norman Lamb:
Pros: Actual liberal, great on health Against: Hunting ban vote could come back to haunt...
Jo Swinson:
Pros: Fiery campaigner Against: Feels a bit Labour light.
Vince Cable:
Pros: Safe pair of hands "For strong and stable, vote Vince Cable" rhymes. Against: Plotter & schemer.0 -
Only problem is we have May, not Thatcher.SeanT said:
Yes, that's possible the closest example. And also with IRA violence lurking in the background, as with Islamist terror now.CarlottaVance said:
I have - multiple city riots in (?) 1981, I remember thinking 'I imagine this is how the Middle Class feel before they are swept away'. A Chief Constable was asked what he hoped would calm things down 'rain' was the reply. Also R4 Today 'we are receiving reports of disturbances in Newcastle over the weekend are going live to the Chief Constable - what can you tell us? 'It was a typical Saturday night in the Bigg Market'....SeanT said:I'm not sure I've ever seen Britain this..... neurotic, even anarchic... in my lifetime.
And you could compare Brexit to the painful Thatcherite retooling of the economy, and the mass unemployment of 1981, too.
So that's where we are. 1981.
We need 'a' Thatcher right now.0 -
Sadly the true number of victims literally is being covered up because firefighters can't reach into the unstable and dangerous buildingChris said:
They must be asking that because they think the true number of victims is being covered up.jonny83 said:Just been reading the list of demands from the protesters and I suspect this one in particular is why there is so such tension:
-Release full list of victims of the tragedy.0 -
Southam Observer:
I met John Major once and he was very touchy-feely. Started touching my arm as I was talking to him at a press briefing.
0 -
The anger is now turning even against the reporters. Almost anyone in authority is coming under serious attack and in some way the media are reaping what they have sown over the last few days.
It will be interesting how the populace at large see this as some of their demands are reasonable and are being met but you cannot get to identify those in the building quickly due to the extensive forensics imvolved
It reminds me of the missing Malaysian airliner whose relatives were distraught and wanting immediate answers0 -
There is 100% a point to be made, but the idea the issue started in 1979 and 1979 only is trite in the extreme. We cannot find solutions to issues with such simplistic thinking going on, it will just be a blame game.rural_voter said:
No but he has a point. The tail end of the Thatcher regime coincided with the privatisation of the Building Research Establishment. This epitomised the growing idiocy of 'the market will provide'.HaroldO said:
Do you ever post anything but trite one liners?atia2 said:
Inequality is out of control. Can't blame two days of media coverage for 38 years of minimally regulated free market capitalist government.Tykejohnno said:
The fcuking media is driving this out of control.SeanT said:
The free market didn't just start in 1979 for fucks sake, and bad quality housing didn't either.
Since 1979, the housing construction rate has roughly halved from about 300,000 to 150,000 dwellings per year. The demand for housing hasn't halved. In fact it may have increased slightly, i.e. because the average rate of immigration has been greater.
£120 k per flat. For work which didn't even provide the much-discussed 'compartmentalisation'. Without that working, the advice to stay in your flat during a fire is counterproductive, indeed fatal.
Regardless of criminal offences, I imagine the lawyers are circling like vultures. Failure to meet details of the Building Regulations is widespread but on this occasion the govt. could possibly bear civil liability for not updating the Regulations with reasonable competence, i.e. as circumstances changed and as it became clear foam insulation on tall buildings was dangerous. (N.B. I am not a lawyer.)0 -
The last sentence sean,are you sure about that,every time i have seen hammond he's looked awkward,have we seen how he reacts under pressure ?SeanT said:
I'm a big fan of BoJo, but this is not the time for a charismatic joker.OldKingCole said:
Please, please not JohnsonAndyJS said:
Being stoical used to be regarded as a virtue. I thought it still was, but obviously I'm out of touch.Razedabode said:We are witnessing the end of May.
Hammond would be a disaster. Just as impersonal.
Hammond, please. Boring, smart businessman, with a faintly human wit. Soft Brexiteer.
He won't be as genial as Corbyn but he won't be as awkward and weird and sad as May.
The U-turn at the budget every one wanted him out and when it mattered during the GE he wasn't there to attack labours tax/spending plans.0 -
Mrs May's not the only one in a tricky position:
The truth is that the SNP dont want to introduce a 50p rate because of economics and politics. Economically they think it will lose them money in the long run and further brand Scotland as a high taxation area of the UK. That will eventually feed through into lower tax revenue and damage the Scottish economy.
More importantly, politically, it will also damage the SNP's delicate coalition of wealthy supporters in the North East combined with their radical progressive supporters in the central belt.
That's the real bind for the SNP, talking left and acting right is fine as long as you dont have to make choices. The trouble is the Scotland Act 2016 puts that choice squarely at the feet of the SNP, their solution though was to duck it by making up advice that doesn't exist and to hope no one notices.
http://rwbblog.blogspot.co.id/2017/06/50p-rate-snp-are-at-it.html0 -
That was clear enough from the rest of your post.rural_voter said:(N.B. I am not a lawyer.)
0 -
Must be what Edwina thought....SandraM said:Southam Observer:
I met John Major once and he was very touchy-feely. Started touching my arm as I was talking to him at a press briefing.0 -
She must go.0
-
Helmut Kohl has died.0
-
I'm more than willing to sell my house for £115,000 (They can have 5k left to do up the kitchen) to any local authority that wants to house refugees there. It is basic, but safe and warm.rural_voter said:
No but he has a point. The tail end of the Thatcher regime coincided with the privatisation of the Building Research Establishment. This epitomised the growing idiocy of 'the market will provide'.HaroldO said:
Do you ever post anything but trite one liners?atia2 said:
Inequality is out of control. Can't blame two days of media coverage for 38 years of minimally regulated free market capitalist government.Tykejohnno said:
The fcuking media is driving this out of control.SeanT said:
The free market didn't just start in 1979 for fucks sake, and bad quality housing didn't either.
Since 1979, the housing construction rate has roughly halved from about 300,000 to 150,000 dwellings per year. The demand for housing hasn't halved. In fact it may have increased slightly, i.e. because the average rate of immigration has been greater.
£120 k per flat. For work which didn't even provide the much-discussed 'compartmentalisation'. Without that working, the advice to stay in your flat during a fire is counterproductive, indeed fatal.
Regardless of criminal offences, I imagine the lawyers are circling like vultures. Failure to meet details of the Building Regulations is widespread but on this occasion the govt. could possibly bear civil liability for not updating the Regulations with reasonable competence, i.e. as circumstances changed and as it became clear foam insulation on tall buildings was dangerous. (N.B. I am not a lawyer.)
It'll have the positive side effect of really pissing off my leave voting neighbours who hate immigrants too.0 -
Destined for another 16 years of Tory government?SeanT said:
So that's where we are. 1981.CarlottaVance said:
I have - multiple city riots in (?) 1981, I remember thinking 'I imagine this is how the Middle Class feel before they are swept away'. A Chief Constable was asked what he hoped would calm things down 'rain' was the reply. Also R4 Today 'we are receiving reports of disturbances in Newcastle over the weekend are going live to the Chief Constable - what can you tell us? 'It was a typical Saturday night in the Bigg Market'....SeanT said:I'm not sure I've ever seen Britain this..... neurotic, even anarchic... in my lifetime.
0 -
She is a winner, she is smart, extremely competent with the media, she gives (and has given in Scotland) a completely different face to the Conservative party allowing it to reach parts it never could before and blunting a lot of the normal attack lines. She has proven to be pragmatic, she was a strong remainer (far more than May) but now accepts that Brexit has to be implemented. She will go for as soft a Brexit as she can making the economy the priority. Her position is what we need right now. But getting her there is not easy, that I accept.Monksfield said:
Seriously, you're all beginning to sound desperate over Ruth. A politician with no experience of UK/English politics. Will her appeal travel beyond Bonnie Scotland? And would she want to? Not sure I would in her shoes.DavidL said:
If she stood down does Ruth stand in Maidenhead? Looking at the options in this deeply mediocre cabinet they could really do with her.rottenborough said:
Yes.Morris_Dancer said:Just checked (I have no bet on the next Con leader), and am puzzled that Hammond is 13 to be next leader, but Ruth Davidson is 9. Is that not crazy?
0 -
Yes there is a process to follow here, it's not like they are not holding back names of victims because they don't want to. They just can't right now, they just don't have them to give out.FF43 said:
Sadly the true number of victims literally is being covered up because firefighters can't reach into the unstable and dangerous buildingChris said:
They must be asking that because they think the true number of victims is being covered up.jonny83 said:Just been reading the list of demands from the protesters and I suspect this one in particular is why there is so such tension:
-Release full list of victims of the tragedy.
Such a tragic situation but the media and political games here have really have stirred this all up as well.0 -
There may be no realistic solution to this problem. However perhaps if the authorities thought outside of the box :jonny83 said:Just been reading the list of demands from the protesters and I suspect this one in particular is why there is so such tension:
-Release full list of victims of the tragedy.
Problem is they can;t release them right now, they don't know yet the full list of victims. They haven't even really begun searching the building yet and temperatures were so high that it's going to be difficult for them to identify victims.They have said some may never be identified...
Colin Brazier on Sky yesterday was telling some of those protesters about how difficult and lengthy a process it will be identifying the dead and they were having none of it.
AN Other - "Missing Presumed Dead"
????0 -
I backed Boris, Hammond and Rudd as PM after next election at 100/1 with Skybet many months ago.
I will be just slightly annoyed if those bets just avoid being paid out.0 -
There will be lots of body parts that need to be collated. You have to treat each body part found as a separate casualty until it has been positively identified as belonging to another, and that usually means DNA rather than matching a pair of trainers. It will take a long time.FF43 said:
Sadly the true number of victims literally is being covered up because firefighters can't reach into the unstable and dangerous buildingChris said:
They must be asking that because they think the true number of victims is being covered up.jonny83 said:Just been reading the list of demands from the protesters and I suspect this one in particular is why there is so such tension:
-Release full list of victims of the tragedy.0 -
Evening Standard tonight: May's aides called Hammond a c*nt.
Jesus.0 -
I also fear that some bodies will have been so badly incinerated that they may never be identified.FF43 said:
Sadly the true number of victims literally is being covered up because firefighters can't reach into the unstable and dangerous buildingChris said:
They must be asking that because they think the true number of victims is being covered up.jonny83 said:Just been reading the list of demands from the protesters and I suspect this one in particular is why there is so such tension:
-Release full list of victims of the tragedy.0 -
It's become apparent since the campaign that a lot of May's reputation was just projection - as someone put it, "support a mile wide and an inch deep". Talking up Ruth Davidson has the same danger. She is personable, but unproven and inexperienced.Monksfield said:Seriously, you're all beginning to sound desperate over Ruth. A politician with no experience of UK/English politics. Will her appeal travel beyond Bonnie Scotland? And would she want to? Not sure I would in her shoes.
Though personally I have very little time for Hammond - he was terrible at Transport, alternately talking up flights of fancy and pandering to the lowest common denominator - I have to concede that he is probably the least bad option for the Conservatives right now. It is astonishing how quickly this proto-Government is unravelling.0 -
Osbornes enjoying this way too much...Casino_Royale said:Evening Standard tonight: May's aides called Hammond a c*nt.
Jesus.0 -
The DUP ?Slackbladder said:Uh-oh May looks like she's going to be surrounded in a church.
0 -
What's going to be interesting is to know how many of the flats were being illegally sub-let.FF43 said:
Sadly the true number of victims literally is being covered up because firefighters can't reach into the unstable and dangerous buildingChris said:
They must be asking that because they think the true number of victims is being covered up.jonny83 said:Just been reading the list of demands from the protesters and I suspect this one in particular is why there is so such tension:
-Release full list of victims of the tragedy.0 -
True, but in any case it's not a zero sum game. If Britain gets a 'No deal' it will be terrible for us but also bad for the EU. A deal will be good for both parties.OllyT said:
But since last week the EU negotiators will pretty much know that the country won't wear it - it only works if it is credible that it will be allowed to happen.RobinWiggs said:
It's a negotiating position.SouthamObserver said:I do not see how Davis is a safe pair of hands. He thinks walking away from the EU without a deal is a serious option.
If you tell the other side you won't walk away in any circumstances no matter how bad the deal, you will get a worse deal.
If they think you might walk away from the table and this is also bad for them, you have a stronger negotiating hand.
Of course, like the nuclear deterrent, you can't declare your hand or it becomes useless.0 -
Hammond to take over as caretaker before the Queens Speech. Full contest thereafter.Casino_Royale said:Evening Standard tonight: May's aides called Hammond a c*nt.
Jesus.0
