Corbyn's thuggish mob causing mayhem on the streets tonight - thiswhat Labour Members and MPs have embraced and support.
Pshaw. What mob? What mayhem? What embrace? I see a march, some scuffles, and a candlelit vigil.
Yes, there will be a few Class War masked trouble-makers (like the incident you show with the photographer, I suppose). Yes people are upset. But mayhem? Don't be so hysterical, precisely with the kind of political agenda that you project onto others.
What the f**k are they turning up for at all? Its not a political protest is it?
Violent anarchists think everything is political and every disaster is something to exploit. Normally people just eye them irritably and tell them to shove off. So far, on this occasion as well, they have not been able to generate significant violence, and it really is unfair to local residents to imply that they're a violent mob because they shove their way into a town hall reception area or shout at politicians (no worse than I've experienced myself). I think it's understandable that they're annoyed and what we've seen so far is not a disproportionate response - primarily they seem frustrated. Wouldn't we all feel a bit like that?
Note that I've not particularly blamed Mrs May either. She's not proving very naturally sympathetic, and that's a pity, but she's not shrugged it off either.
You have been very measured indeed. I don't particularly blame May either, in this case. She simply doesn't have the equipment to respond to the emotions of the situation. Today's interview reminded me of Gordon Brown in his more tone deaf moments. In other circumstances that might not matter, but in her post election predicament it adds to the difficulty of her remaining in charge.
I do believe that when Theresa May stands down Brexit as wanted by UKIP will be gone for good
Apparently she isn't standing down. The DUP will save her or something
She will in time for the next GE whenever that is. The next interesting question will be whether the SNP and the Lib Dems decide to vote for or against or abstain on the QS
Zero chance they would vote for it, surely?
I am only asking the question.
However the SNP and the Lib Dems do not want an election anytime soon
It's hard to know if parties could actually oppose a motion depending on the context and public perception, but Labour are currently the only party who want a quick election.
I don't think defeating the QS would be enough to trigger an election under the FTPA - it has to be a vote of no confidence.
The PM would resign, Corbyn could not be able to put together a Government, and so another GE
Or why not simply represent a revised QS addressing the concerns of the (presumably few) Tories who didn't vote for it?
Looks like that is what is going to happen
Indeed, but I bet SNP & LibDems join Labour in voting against, and it passes by handful of votes.
SNP maybe but listening to Vince Cable I doubt the lib dems will vote against
Lib Dems already in bed with the Tories ? When will they ever learn ?
If the DUP support it the LDs will 100% vote against. Even if the DUP abstained or opposed I think they would vote against. Ignore Cable, he is a maverick. The LDs are smart enough to know that their immediate enemy is the tory party, and they shouldn't support them in any way.
I have to say I've noticed a change on this site since the election results. Analysis of events seems to be much more along the 'straw grasping / what i want to happen' side of things rather than the more cool headed analysis from before. Seems like the marmite feelings towards Corbyn have polarised people even more than Brexit has. This tower incident in particular seems to be bringing out those who cynically accuse Corbyn of photoshoots while not accusing May of the same, and seem to want to sweep away the current protests as being mere SWP fronts. Even if the hard left have become involved, it is clear that there is real anger at the situation, we are not being brainwashed by SWP members.
Yes, well if there is anger it should be directed at the local council housing cttee, the architects and the construction firm, Greenfell Tower was tragic but while May can be held responsible for many things this fire was not one of them!
I agree with all of that - I don't blame May or the government for the fire, although I think her decision not to visit residents was a mistake, even if they would have heckled her. But the justified anger against this situation is now being dismissed as mere SWP protests. At best there would be a couple of infiltrating SWPers but the actual people affected by this are angry, and justifiably so. Also Corbyn himself has not said anything to stoke up tensions yet, but people here seem to act like he has behaved disgustingly - he is simply rightly angry at the situation.
May did at least meet victims and community leaders today.
Corbyn's thuggish mob causing mayhem on the streets tonight - thiswhat Labour Members and MPs have embraced and support.
Pshaw. What mob? What mayhem? What embrace? I see a march, some scuffles, and a candlelit vigil.
Yes, there will be a few Class War masked trouble-makers (like the incident you show with the photographer, I suppose). Yes people are upset. But mayhem? Don't be so hysterical, precisely with the kind of political agenda that you project onto others.
What the f**k are they turning up for at all? Its not a political protest is it?
Violent anarchists think everything is political and every disaster is something to exploit. Normally people just eye them irritably and tell them to shove off. So far, on this occasion as well, they have not been able to generate significant violence, and it really is unfair to local residents to imply that they're a violent mob because they shove their way into a town hall reception area or shout at politicians (no worse than I've experienced myself). I think it's understandable that they're annoyed and what we've seen so far is not a disproportionate response - primarily they seem frustrated. Wouldn't we all feel a bit like that?
Note that I've not particularly blamed Mrs May either. She's not proving very naturally sympathetic, and that's a pity, but she's not shrugged it off either.
The local residents weren't the problem, were they. People with no particular association other than thinking themselves some of kind of revolutionaries, seemed to be popping up on cue, alongside the semi-professional outraged brigade.
A line will have to be taken, or else it will eventually damage the particular cause that the residents may have. The hangers on who have somehow got involved will need to go.
Here's the problem, officials and associates around your party's leader are connected to those hangers on. How much do they know? do they know the plans of hangers on, do they work with them?
I have to say I've noticed a change on this site since the election results. Analysis of events seems to be much more along the 'straw grasping / what i want to happen' side of things rather than the more cool headed analysis from before. Seems like the marmite feelings towards Corbyn have polarised people even more than Brexit has. This tower incident in particular seems to be bringing out those who cynically accuse Corbyn of photoshoots while not accusing May of the same, and seem to want to sweep away the current protests as being mere SWP fronts. Even if the hard left have become involved, it is clear that there is real anger at the situation, we are not being brainwashed by SWP members.
Yes, well if there is anger it should be directed at the local council housing cttee, the architects and the construction firm, Greenfell Tower was tragic but while May can be held responsible for many things this fire was not one of them!
I agree with all of that - I don't blame May or the government for the fire, although I think her decision not to visit residents was a mistake, even if they would have heckled her. But the justified anger against this situation is now being dismissed as mere SWP protests. At best there would be a couple of infiltrating SWPers but the actual people affected by this are angry, and justifiably so. Also Corbyn himself has not said anything to stoke up tensions yet, but people here seem to act like he has behaved disgustingly - he is simply rightly angry at the situation.
May did at least meet victims and community leaders today.
Too late unfortunately, the damage is done. I am sympathetic to May in this situation, I don't blame her for it, and I don't doubt for a minute she would have been as horrified about this as the rest of us. Her politics are not mine but she is not a bad person. But she let a narrative of being uncaring and robotic sink in by not visiting residents initially, it was a huge mistake on her part. Very hard to shift now.
Corbyn's thuggish mob causing mayhem on the streets tonight - thiswhat Labour Members and MPs have embraced and support.
Pshaw. What mob? What mayhem? What embrace? I see a march, some scuffles, and a candlelit vigil.
Yes, there will be a few Class War masked trouble-makers (like the incident you show with the photographer, I suppose). Yes people are upset. But mayhem? Don't be so hysterical, precisely with the kind of political agenda that you project onto others.
What the f**k are they turning up for at all? Its not a political protest is it?
Violent anarchists think everything is political and every disaster is something to exploit. Normally people just eye them irritably and tell them to shove off. So far, on this occasion as well, they have not been able to generate significant violence, and it really is unfair to local residents to imply that they're a violent mob because they shove their way into a town hall reception area or shout at politicians (no worse than I've experienced myself). I think it's understandable that they're annoyed and what we've seen so far is not a disproportionate response - primarily they seem frustrated. Wouldn't we all feel a bit like that?
Note that I've not particularly blamed Mrs May either. She's not proving very naturally sympathetic, and that's a pity, but she's not shrugged it off either.
The local residents weren't the problem, were they. People with no particular association other than thinking themselves some of kind of revolutionaries, seemed to be popping up on cue, alongside the semi-professional outraged brigade.
A line will have to be taken, or else it will eventually damage the particular cause that the residents may have. The hangers on who have somehow got involved will need to go.
Here's the problem, officials and associates around your party's leader are connected to those hangers on. How much do they know? do they know the plans of hangers on, do they work with them?
Its not something you want looked into.
A demonstration took place. Given the circumstances, it was remarkably measured. People let off steam. And why wouldn't they?
I have to say I've noticed a change on this site since the election results. Analysis of events seems to be much more along the 'straw grasping / what i want to happen' side of things rather than the more cool headed analysis from before. Seems like the marmite feelings towards Corbyn have polarised people even more than Brexit has. This tower incident in particular seems to be bringing out those who cynically accuse Corbyn of photoshoots while not accusing May of the same, and seem to want to sweep away the current protests as being mere SWP fronts. Even if the hard left have become involved, it is clear that there is real anger at the situation, we are not being brainwashed by SWP members.
Yes, well if there is anger it should be directed at the local council housing cttee, the architects and the construction firm, Greenfell Tower was tragic but while May can be held responsible for many things this fire was not one of them!
I agree with all of that - I don't blame May or the government for the fire, although I think her decision not to visit residents was a mistake, even if they would have heckled her. But the justified anger against this situation is now being dismissed as mere SWP protests. At best there would be a couple of infiltrating SWPers but the actual people affected by this are angry, and justifiably so. Also Corbyn himself has not said anything to stoke up tensions yet, but people here seem to act like he has behaved disgustingly - he is simply rightly angry at the situation.
Fast and well funded action on assessing other cladded high rise buildings is what is needed from the government - and that means either replacing May overnight, or just getting on with the job. Faffing around for the next week about whether she stays or goes is a luxury the Tories don't have. And expecting her to provide any form of public empathy is utterly futile.
I have to say I've noticed a change on this site since the election results. Analysis of events seems to be much more along the 'straw grasping / what i want to happen' side of things rather than the more cool headed analysis from before. Seems like the marmite feelings towards Corbyn have polarised people even more than Brexit has. This tower incident in particular seems to be bringing out those who cynically accuse Corbyn of photoshoots while not accusing May of the same, and seem to want to sweep away the current protests as being mere SWP fronts. Even if the hard left have become involved, it is clear that there is real anger at the situation, we are not being brainwashed by SWP members.
Yes, well if there is anger it should be directed at the local council housing cttee, the architects and the construction firm, Greenfell Tower was tragic but while May can be held responsible for many things this fire was not one of them!
I agree with all of that - I don't blame May or the government for the fire, although I think her decision not to visit residents was a mistake, even if they would have heckled her. But the justified anger against this situation is now being dismissed as mere SWP protests. At best there would be a couple of infiltrating SWPers but the actual people affected by this are angry, and justifiably so. Also Corbyn himself has not said anything to stoke up tensions yet, but people here seem to act like he has behaved disgustingly - he is simply rightly angry at the situation.
May did at least meet victims and community leaders today.
Too late unfortunately, the damage is done. I am sympathetic to May in this situation, I don't blame her for it, and I don't doubt for a minute she would have been as horrified about this as the rest of us. Her politics are not mine but she is not a bad person. But she let a narrative of being uncaring and robotic sink in by not visiting residents initially, it was a huge mistake on her part. Very hard to shift now.
May is not going to lead the Tories at the next election, she is just focusing on the day job until the changeover
I am not going to encourage a mob, but the residents of Grenfell are rightly angry.
Its their situation. Its what happens if the uninvolved start to become involved.
The uninvolved have a right to be angry too - it could have just as easily been them. If you lived in a tower identical to Grenfell, would you sleep easy tonight?
You miss the point, some of the uninvolved couldn't give a damn for the residents, I never saw them marching before carrying banners saying 'fire safety now!' before.
Having no cause with a cause but moving into its house and shitting in it like a cuckoo in a nest is not going to work well long term. It eats away at legitimacy.
A ) too much; B ) about the right amount; or C ) too little?
that's B )
Spending was out of control under Gordon. It is the closest thing to an objective political fact you will ever get.
...The variables that gets forgotten was the low debt level relative to GDP and low interest rates. So much so that we got through a 6% recession, 10 years of anaemic growth, yet we stayed under the 90% of GDP international public debt benchmark that signifies problematic public finances, and had enough wiggle room for a Tory tax cut or two. Public finances were healthy enough to cope with what was thrown at us.
The type of private sector finance that is beloved of free market economics - that was well out of control.
In any normal recession and recovery cycle, very minor adjustments in Brown's public spending trajectory would have been fine, just fine.
You can make a case that Brown spent on the wrong things, or didn't control private finance, but the simple spent too much argument still doesn't wash now.
Corbyn's thuggish mob causing mayhem on the streets tonight - thiswhat Labour Members and MPs have embraced and support.
Pshaw. What mob? What mayhem? What embrace? I see a march, some scuffles, and a candlelit vigil.
Yes, there will be a few Class War masked trouble-makers (like the incident you show with the photographer, I suppose). Yes people are upset. But mayhem? Don't be so hysterical, precisely with the kind of political agenda that you project onto others.
What the f**k are they turning up for at all? Its not a political protest is it?
Violent anarchists think everything is political and every disaster is something to exploit. Normally people just eye them irritably and tell them to shove off. So far, on this occasion as well, they have not been able to generate significant violence, and it really is unfair to local residents to imply that they're a violent mob because they shove their way into a town hall reception area or shout at politicians (no worse than I've experienced myself). I think it's understandable that they're annoyed and what we've seen so far is not a disproportionate response - primarily they seem frustrated. Wouldn't we all feel a bit like that?
Note that I've not particularly blamed Mrs May either. She's not proving very naturally sympathetic, and that's a pity, but she's not shrugged it off either.
The local residents weren't the problem, were they. People with no particular association other than thinking themselves some of kind of revolutionaries, seemed to be popping up on cue, alongside the semi-professional outraged brigade.
A line will have to be taken, or else it will eventually damage the particular cause that the residents may have. The hangers on who have somehow got involved will need to go.
Here's the problem, officials and associates around your party's leader are connected to those hangers on. How much do they know? do they know the plans of hangers on, do they work with them?
Its not something you want looked into.
A demonstration took place. Given the circumstances, it was remarkably measured. People let off steam. And why wouldn't they?
I have to say I've noticed a change on this site since the election results. Analysis of events seems to be much more along the 'straw grasping / what i want to happen' side of things rather than the more cool headed analysis from before. Seems like the marmite feelings towards Corbyn have polarised people even more than Brexit has. This tower incident in particular seems to be bringing out those who cynically accuse Corbyn of photoshoots while not accusing May of the same, and seem to want to sweep away the current protests as being mere SWP fronts. Even if the hard left have become involved, it is clear that there is real anger at the situation, we are not being brainwashed by SWP members.
Yes, well if there is anger it should be directed at the local council housing cttee, the architects and the construction firm, Greenfell Tower was tragic but while May can be held responsible for many things this fire was not one of them!
I agree with all of that - I don't blame May or the government for the fire, although I think her decision not to visit residents was a mistake, even if they would have heckled her. But the justified anger against this situation is now being dismissed as mere SWP protests. At best there would be a couple of infiltrating SWPers but the actual people affected by this are angry, and justifiably so. Also Corbyn himself has not said anything to stoke up tensions yet, but people here seem to act like he has behaved disgustingly - he is simply rightly angry at the situation.
May did at least meet victims and community leaders today.
Too late unfortunately, the damage is done. I am sympathetic to May in this situation, I don't blame her for it, and I don't doubt for a minute she would have been as horrified about this as the rest of us. Her politics are not mine but she is not a bad person. But she let a narrative of being uncaring and robotic sink in by not visiting residents initially, it was a huge mistake on her part. Very hard to shift now.
Corbyn's thuggish mob causing mayhem on the streets tonight - thiswhat Labour Members and MPs have embraced and support.
Pshaw. What mob? What mayhem? What embrace? I see a march, some scuffles, and a candlelit vigil.
Yes, there will be a few Class War masked trouble-makers (like the incident you show with the photographer, I suppose). Yes people are upset. But mayhem? Don't be so hysterical, precisely with the kind of political agenda that you project onto others.
What the f**k are they turning up for at all? Its not a political protest is it?
Violent anarchists think everything is political and every disaster is something to exploit. Normally people just eye them irritably and tell them to shove off. So far, on this occasion as well, they have not been able to generate significant violence, and it really is unfair to local residents to imply that they're a violent mob because they shove their way into a town hall reception area or shout at politicians (no worse than I've experienced myself). I think it's understandable that they're annoyed and what we've seen so far is not a disproportionate response - primarily they seem frustrated. Wouldn't we all feel a bit like that?
Note that I've not particularly blamed Mrs May either. She's not proving very naturally sympathetic, and that's a pity, but she's not shrugged it off either.
The local residents weren't the problem, were they. People with no particular association other than thinking themselves some of kind of revolutionaries, seemed to be popping up on cue, alongside the semi-professional outraged brigade.
A line will have to be taken, or else it will eventually damage the particular cause that the residents may have. The hangers on who have somehow got involved will need to go.
Here's the problem, officials and associates around your party's leader are connected to those hangers on. How much do they know? do they know the plans of hangers on, do they work with them?
Its not something you want looked into.
A demonstration took place. Given the circumstances, it was remarkably measured. People let off steam. And why wouldn't they?
What is the cause in question?
Dead fucking children burning alive? Watching your friends die on FB?? Will that do? TWAT.
Corbyn's thuggish mob causing mayhem on the streets tonight - thiswhat Labour Members and MPs have embraced and support.
Pshaw. What mob? What mayhem? What embrace? I see a march, some scuffles, and a candlelit vigil.
Yes, there will be a few Class War masked trouble-makers (like the incident you show with the photographer, I suppose). Yes people are upset. But mayhem? Don't be so hysterical, precisely with the kind of political agenda that you project onto others.
What the f**k are they turning up for at all? Its not a political protest is it?
Violent anarchists think everything is political and every disaster is something to exploit. Normally people just eye them irritably and tell them to shove off. So far, on this occasion as well, they have not been able to generate significant violence, and it really is unfair to local residents to imply that they're a violent mob because they shove their way into a town hall reception area or shout at politicians (no worse than I've experienced myself). I think it's understandable that they're annoyed and what we've seen so far is not a disproportionate response - primarily they seem frustrated. Wouldn't we all feel a bit like that?
Note that I've not particularly blamed Mrs May either. She's not proving very naturally sympathetic, and that's a pity, but she's not shrugged it off either.
The local residents weren't the problem, were they. People with no particular association other than thinking themselves some of kind of revolutionaries, seemed to be popping up on cue, alongside the semi-professional outraged brigade.
A line will have to be taken, or else it will eventually damage the particular cause that the residents may have. The hangers on who have somehow got involved will need to go.
Here's the problem, officials and associates around your party's leader are connected to those hangers on. How much do they know? do they know the plans of hangers on, do they work with them?
Its not something you want looked into.
A demonstration took place. Given the circumstances, it was remarkably measured. People let off steam. And why wouldn't they?
What is the cause in question?
Dead fucking children burning alive? Watching your friends die on FB?? Will that do? TWAT.
It wasn't those involved in the demo. It was people with socialist worker party banners you utter idiot.
Corbyn's thuggish mob causing mayhem on the streets tonight - thiswhat Labour Members and MPs have embraced and support.
Pshaw. What mob? What mayhem? What embrace? I see a march, some scuffles, and a candlelit vigil.
Yes, there will be a few Class War masked trouble-makers (like the incident you show with the photographer, I suppose). Yes people are upset. But mayhem? Don't be so hysterical, precisely with the kind of political agenda that you project onto others.
What the f**k are they turning up for at all? Its not a political protest is it?
Violent anarchists think everything is political and every disaster is something to exploit. Normally people just eye them irritably and tell them to shove off. So far, on this occasion as well, they have not been able to generate significant violence, and it really is unfair to local residents to imply that they're a violent mob because they shove their way into a town hall reception area or shout at politicians (no worse than I've experienced myself). I think it's understandable that they're annoyed and what we've seen so far is not a disproportionate response - primarily they seem frustrated. Wouldn't we all feel a bit like that?
Note that I've not particularly blamed Mrs May either. She's not proving very naturally sympathetic, and that's a pity, but she's not shrugged it off either.
The local residents weren't the problem, were they. People with no particular association other than thinking themselves some of kind of revolutionaries, seemed to be popping up on cue, alongside the semi-professional outraged brigade.
A line will have to be taken, or else it will eventually damage the particular cause that the residents may have. The hangers on who have somehow got involved will need to go.
Here's the problem, officials and associates around your party's leader are connected to those hangers on. How much do they know? do they know the plans of hangers on, do they work with them?
Its not something you want looked into.
A demonstration took place. Given the circumstances, it was remarkably measured. People let off steam. And why wouldn't they?
What is the cause in question?
Dead fucking children burning alive? Watching your friends die on FB?? Will that do? TWAT.
I ask again, what is the cause they are protesting about? You tell me. Do you even know?
The local residents weren't the problem, were they. People with no particular association other than thinking themselves some of kind of revolutionaries, seemed to be popping up on cue, alongside the semi-professional outraged brigade.
A line will have to be taken, or else it will eventually damage the particular cause that the residents may have. The hangers on who have somehow got involved will need to go.
Here's the problem, officials and associates around your party's leader are connected to those hangers on. How much do they know? do they know the plans of hangers on, do they work with them?
Its not something you want looked into.
A demonstration took place. Given the circumstances, it was remarkably measured. People let off steam. And why wouldn't they?
What is the cause in question?
Dead fucking children burning alive? Watching your friends die on FB?? Will that do? TWAT.
It wasn't those involved in the demo. It was people with socialist worker party banners you utter idiot.
Now that is the very essence of out of touch. If you've ever been on a demo you would know SW hand out banners. You may believe they weren't on the demo. I may be an utter idiot, that is an open question. There is no doubt you an an unfeeling bastard. Wonder why you didn't get a majority?
Corbyn's thuggish mob causing mayhem on the streets tonight - thiswhat Labour Members and MPs have embraced and support.
Pshaw. What mob? What mayhem? What embrace? I see a march, some scuffles, and a candlelit vigil.
Yes, there will be a few Class War masked trouble-makers (like the incident you show with the photographer, I suppose). Yes people are upset. But mayhem? Don't be so hysterical, precisely with the kind of political agenda that you project onto others.
What the f**k are they turning up for at all? Its not a political protest is it?
Violent anarchists think everything is political and every disaster is something to exploit. Normally people just eye them irritably and tell them to shove off. So far, on this occasion as well, they have not been able to generate significant violence, and it really is unfair to local residents to imply that they're a violent mob because they shove their way into a town hall reception area or shout at politicians (no worse than I've experienced myself). I think it's understandable that they're annoyed and what we've seen so far is not a disproportionate response - primarily they seem frustrated. Wouldn't we all feel a bit like that?
Note that I've not particularly blamed Mrs May either. She's not proving very naturally sympathetic, and that's a pity, but she's not shrugged it off either.
The local residents weren't the problem, were they. People with no particular association other than thinking themselves some of kind of revolutionaries, seemed to be popping up on cue, alongside the semi-professional outraged brigade.
A line will have to be taken, or else it will eventually damage the particular cause that the residents may have. The hangers on who have somehow got involved will need to go.
Here's the problem, officials and associates around your party's leader are connected to those hangers on. How much do they know? do they know the plans of hangers on, do they work with them?
Its not something you want looked into.
A demonstration took place. Given the circumstances, it was remarkably measured. People let off steam. And why wouldn't they?
What is the cause in question?
Dead fucking children burning alive? Watching your friends die on FB?? Will that do? TWAT.
I ask again, what is the cause they are protesting about? You tell me. Do you even know?
Can some one help wee Dixie out there. They seem in need of some emotional support.
Answering straightforward questions in a debate they voluntarily got involved in seems to be beyond them.
Absolute headloss from him. I'm not a Tory as those who read my posts know, but I'm aware of the hard left attempting to exploit situations. Those affected will be angry and requesting answers, but they won't be taking to the streets en masse. This tragic event is clearly being hijacked and if dixiedean cannot see it then that reflects badly on his myopic views in my opinion.
Can some one help wee Dixie out there. They seem in need of some emotional support.
Answering straightforward questions in a debate they voluntarily got involved in seems to be beyond them.
Absolute headloss from him. I'm not a Tory as those who read my posts know, but I'm aware of the hard left attempting to exploit situations. Those affected will be angry and requesting answers, but they won't be taking to the streets en masse. This tragic event is clearly being hijacked and if dixiedean cannot see it then that reflects badly on his myopic views in my opinion.
Can some one help wee Dixie out there. They seem in need of some emotional support.
Answering straightforward questions in a debate they voluntarily got involved in seems to be beyond them.
Absolute headloss from him. I'm not a Tory as those who read my posts know, but I'm aware of the hard left attempting to exploit situations. Those affected will be angry and requesting answers, but they won't be taking to the streets en masse. This tragic event is clearly being hijacked and if dixiedean cannot see it then that reflects badly on his myopic views in my opinion.
As I said A demonstration took place. Given the circumstances, it was remarkably measured. People let off steam. And why wouldn't they? What is wrong with that? Seems a reasonable summary of what went on.
Corbyn's thuggish mob causing mayhem on the streets tonight - thiswhat Labour Members and MPs have embraced and support.
Violent anarchists think everything is political and every disaster is something to exploit. Normally people just eye them irritably and tell them to shove off. So far, on this occasion as well, they have not been able to generate significant violence, and it really is unfair to local residents to imply that they're a violent mob because they shove their way into a town hall reception area or shout at politicians (no worse than I've experienced myself). I think it's understandable that they're annoyed and what we've seen so far is not a disproportionate response - primarily they seem frustrated. Wouldn't we all feel a bit like that?
Note that I've not particularly blamed Mrs May either. She's not proving very naturally sympathetic, and that's a pity, but she's not shrugged it off either.
The local residents weren't the problem, were they. People with no particular association other than thinking themselves some of kind of revolutionaries, seemed to be popping up on cue, alongside the semi-professional outraged brigade.
A line will have to be taken, or else it will eventually damage the particular cause that the residents may have. The hangers on who have somehow got involved will need to go.
Here's the problem, officials and associates around your party's leader are connected to those hangers on. How much do they know? do they know the plans of hangers on, do they work with them?
Its not something you want looked into.
A demonstration took place. Given the circumstances, it was remarkably measured. People let off steam. And why wouldn't they?
What is the cause in question?
Dead fucking children burning alive? Watching your friends die on FB?? Will that do? TWAT.
I ask again, what is the cause they are protesting about? You tell me. Do you even know?
Told you once.
I think perhaps 'did people die unnecessarily and if so, why' would be what you are looking for.
Not sure watching your friends on Facebook was up there in the protest lexicon. Odd you should mention it in your emotionally filled little outburst. Did you watch it on Facebook at all?
Can some one help wee Dixie out there. They seem in need of some emotional support.
Answering straightforward questions in a debate they voluntarily got involved in seems to be beyond them.
Absolute headloss from him. I'm not a Tory as those who read my posts know, but I'm aware of the hard left attempting to exploit situations. Those affected will be angry and requesting answers, but they won't be taking to the streets en masse. This tragic event is clearly being hijacked and if dixiedean cannot see it then that reflects badly on his myopic views in my opinion.
TBF to Dixie Y0kel is pretty gnomic himself.
We all know that SWP w@nkers have been turning up, uninvited, at all sorts of demos for decades. So if there is something new this time then tell us.
Violent anarchists think everything is political and every disaster is something to exploit. Normally people just eye them irritably and tell them to shove off. So far, on this occasion as well, they have not been able to generate significant violence, and it really is unfair to local residents to imply that they're a violent mob because they shove their way into a town hall reception area or shout at politicians (no worse than I've experienced myself). I think it's understandable that they're annoyed and what we've seen so far is not a disproportionate response - primarily they seem frustrated. Wouldn't we all feel a bit like that?
Note that I've not particularly blamed Mrs May either. She's not proving very naturally sympathetic, and that's a pity, but she's not shrugged it off either.
The local residents weren't the problem, were they. People with no particular association other than thinking themselves some of kind of revolutionaries, seemed to be popping up on cue, alongside the semi-professional outraged brigade.
A line will have to be taken, or else it will eventually damage the particular cause that the residents may have. The hangers on who have somehow got involved will need to go.
Here's the problem, officials and associates around your party's leader are connected to those hangers on. How much do they know? do they know the plans of hangers on, do they work with them?
Its not something you want looked into.
A demonstration took place. Given the circumstances, it was remarkably measured. People let off steam. And why wouldn't they?
What is the cause in question?
Dead fucking children burning alive? Watching your friends die on FB?? Will that do? TWAT.
I ask again, what is the cause they are protesting about? You tell me. Do you even know?
Told you once.
I think perhaps 'did people die unnecessarily and if so, why' would be what you are looking for.
Not sure watching your friends on Facebook was up there in the protest lexicon. Odd you should mention it in your emotionally filled little outburst. Did you watch it on Facebook at all?
People were angry, and rightly so. Not sure where your obsession with SWP came in. People reacted angrily to a traumatic situation. Of course the SWP will try to exploit it. They always do. But they were not the majority of the crowd as you imply.
Can some one help wee Dixie out there. They seem in need of some emotional support.
Answering straightforward questions in a debate they voluntarily got involved in seems to be beyond them.
Absolute headloss from him. I'm not a Tory as those who read my posts know, but I'm aware of the hard left attempting to exploit situations. Those affected will be angry and requesting answers, but they won't be taking to the streets en masse. This tragic event is clearly being hijacked and if dixiedean cannot see it then that reflects badly on his myopic views in my opinion.
TBF to Dixie Y0kel is pretty gnomic himself.
We all know that SWP w@nkers have been turning up, uninvited, at all sorts of demos for decades. So if there is something new this time then tell us.
Believe it or not, am not trying to have a row. The fact is that after such a horrible event, people will react in irrational ways. That is understandable. The SWP will try to exploit the situation. That is what they do. It doe not make me an "utter idiot" for pointing that out.
Corbyn's thuggish mob causing mayhem on the streets tonight - thiswhat Labour Members and MPs have embraced and support.
Pshaw. What mob? What mayhem? What embrace? I see a march, some scuffles, and a candlelit vigil.
Yes, there will be a few Class War masked trouble-makers (like the incident you show with the photographer, I suppose). Yes people are upset. But mayhem? Don't be so hysterical, precisely with the kind of political agenda that you project onto others.
What the f**k are they turning up for at all? Its not a political protest is it?
Violent anarchists think everything is political and every disaster is something to exploit. Normally people just eye them irritably and tell them to shove off. So far, on this occasion as well, they have not been able to generate significant violence, and it really is unfair to local residents to imply that they're a violent mob because they shove their way into a town hall reception area or shout at politicians (no worse than I've experienced myself). I think it's understandable that they're annoyed and what we've seen so far is not a disproportionate response - primarily they seem frustrated. Wouldn't we all feel a bit like that?
Note that I've not particularly blamed Mrs May either. She's not proving very naturally sympathetic, and that's a pity, but she's not shrugged it off either.
The local residents weren't the problem, were they. People with no particular association other than thinking themselves some of kind of revolutionaries, seemed to be popping up on cue, alongside the semi-professional outraged brigade.
A line will have to be taken, or else it will eventually damage the particular cause that the residents may have. The hangers on who have somehow got involved will need to go.
Here's the problem, officials and associates around your party's leader are connected to those hangers on. How much do they know? do they know the plans of hangers on, do they work with them?
Its not something you want looked into.
You want me to condemn the SWP and Class War? Sure, they're troublemaking idiots. But first you demand an explanation of why they're turning up (BECAUSE they're troublemaking idiots, duh), then you allege entirely falsely that they're something to do with Labour. They despise Labour. They think we're right-wing tools of the establishment.
It seems to me, Yokel, that there's only one of us trying to politicise all this, and it's not me.
Corbyn's thuggish mob causing mayhem on the streets tonight - thiswhat Labour Members and MPs have embraced and support.
Pshaw. What mob? What mayhem? What embrace? I see a march, some scuffles, and a candlelit vigil.
Yes, there will be a few Class War masked trouble-makers (like the incident you show with the photographer, I suppose). Yes people are upset. But mayhem? Don't be so hysterical, precisely with the kind of political agenda that you project onto others.
What the f**k are they turning up for at all? Its not a political protest is it?
Violent anarchists think everything is political and every disaster is something to exploit. Normally people just eye them irritably and tell them to shove off. So far, on this occasion as well, they have not been able to generate significant violence, and it really is unfair to local residents to imply that they're a violent mob because they shove their way into a town hall reception area or shout at politicians (no worse than I've experienced myself). I think it's understandable that they're annoyed and what we've seen so far is not a disproportionate response - primarily they seem frustrated. Wouldn't we all feel a bit like that?
Note that I've not particularly blamed Mrs May either. She's not proving very naturally sympathetic, and that's a pity, but she's not shrugged it off either.
The local residents weren't the problem, were they. People with no particular association other than thinking themselves some of kind of revolutionaries, seemed to be popping up on cue, alongside the semi-professional outraged brigade.
A line will have to be taken, or else it will eventually damage the particular cause that the residents may have. The hangers on who have somehow got involved will need to go.
Here's the problem, officials and associates around your party's leader are connected to those hangers on. How much do they know? do they know the plans of hangers on, do they work with them?
Its not something you want looked into.
You want me to condemn the SWP and Class War? Sure, they're troublemaking idiots. But first you demand an explanation of why they're turning up (BECAUSE they're troublemaking idiots, duh), then you allege entirely falsely that they're something to do with Labour. They despise Labour. They think we're right-wing tools of the establishment.
It seems to me, Yokel, that there's only one of us trying to politicise all this, and it's not me.
If one of them became labour leader you'd find a way to support them
Violent anarchists think everything is political and every disaster is something to exploit. Normally people just eye them irritably and tell them to shove off. So far, on this occasion as well, they have not been able to generate significant violence, and it really is unfair to local residents to imply that they're a violent mob because they shove their way into a town hall reception area or shout at politicians (no worse than I've experienced myself). I think it's understandable that they're annoyed and what we've seen so far is not a disproportionate response - primarily they seem frustrated. Wouldn't we all feel a bit like that?
Note that I've not particularly blamed Mrs May either. She's not proving very naturally sympathetic, and that's a pity, but she's not shrugged it off either.
The local residents weren't the problem, were they. People with no particular association other than thinking themselves some of kind of revolutionaries, seemed to be popping up on cue, alongside the semi-professional outraged brigade.
A line will have to be taken, or else it will eventually damage the particular cause that the residents may have. The hangers on who have somehow got involved will need to go.
Here's the problem, officials and associates around your party's leader are connected to those hangers on. How much do they know? do they know the plans of hangers on, do they work with them?
Its not something you want looked into.
You want me to condemn the SWP and Class War? Sure, they're troublemaking idiots. But first you demand an explanation of why they're turning up (BECAUSE they're troublemaking idiots, duh), then you allege entirely falsely that they're something to do with Labour. They despise Labour. They think we're right-wing tools of the establishment.
It seems to me, Yokel, that there's only one of us trying to politicise all this, and it's not me.
Ironically, people on the Left actually KNOW what C**** Class War and SWP are. They hijack every cause for their nihilistic ends, however noble. People on the Right seem to think that the presence of anyone from either group within a mile radius is a good reason to shut down any legitimate grievance.
The housing situation has reached an extent where 59% of the population have taken an essentially Marxist view on property rights.
Remarkable
The one constant of British popular opinion is that the voters hate freedom.
Not quite. They hate people who are a bit richer than they are.
No, the hatred of freedom is applied particularly to poor people. The reason London has a housing shortage in the first place is that people want planning laws that prevent houses being built, mainly to the detriment of people poorer than them. Or look at immigration restrictions: The government, with the support of the voters, will break your family rather than let the spouse of a low-income British person live in Britain.
Can some one help wee Dixie out there. They seem in need of some emotional support.
Answering straightforward questions in a debate they voluntarily got involved in seems to be beyond them.
Absolute headloss from him. I'm not a Tory as those who read my posts know, but I'm aware of the hard left attempting to exploit situations. Those affected will be angry and requesting answers, but they won't be taking to the streets en masse. This tragic event is clearly being hijacked and if dixiedean cannot see it then that reflects badly on his myopic views in my opinion.
TBF to Dixie Y0kel is pretty gnomic himself.
We all know that SWP w@nkers have been turning up, uninvited, at all sorts of demos for decades. So if there is something new this time then tell us.
So according to the Telegraph a "businessman" with no criminal record, whose brother stood AGAINST a Corbynite in the general election, "was seen appealing for calm as he read out a statement from the council". This happened at a protest he organised after he had listened to his friend live-broadcasting until she and her children perished, trapped on the 23rd floor of Grenfell Tower.
Corbyn's thuggish mob causing mayhem on the streets tonight - thiswhat Labour Members and MPs have embraced and support.
Pshaw. What mob? What mayhem? What embrace? I see a march, some scuffles, and a candlelit vigil.
Yes, there will be a few Class War masked trouble-makers (like the incident you show with the photographer, I suppose). Yes people are upset. But mayhem? Don't be so hysterical, precisely with the kind of political agenda that you project onto others.
What the f**k are they turning up for at all? Its not a political protest is it?
Note that I've not particularly blamed Mrs May either. She's not proving very naturally sympathetic, and that's a pity, but she's not shrugged it off either.
The local residents weren't the problem, were they. People with no particular association other than thinking themselves some of kind of revolutionaries, seemed to be popping up on cue, alongside the semi-professional outraged brigade.
A line will have to be taken, or else it will eventually damage the particular cause that the residents may have. The hangers on who have somehow got involved will need to go.
Here's the problem, officials and associates around your party's leader are connected to those hangers on. How much do they know? do they know the plans of hangers on, do they work with them?
Its not something you want looked into.
You want me to condemn the SWP and Class War? Sure, they're troublemaking idiots. But first you demand an explanation of why they're turning up (BECAUSE they're troublemaking idiots, duh), then you allege entirely falsely that they're something to do with Labour. They despise Labour. They think we're right-wing tools of the establishment.
It seems to me, Yokel, that there's only one of us trying to politicise all this, and it's not me.
Actually I didn't suggest that you were politicising. And my concern isn't politicians per se, and there have been many of them, getting on this particular train. for good or for ill.You haven't heard me giving off about David Lammy or Sadiq Khan. They are doing what politicians do, for good or for ill. Ballot boxes decide.
Its where democratic politics and street level stuff that isn't about democratic politics combine. And there is a danger of that occurring in the weeks to come and there is a danger that people of influence within the Labour Party, your party, are playing with it.
Thats anti democratic, and that doesn't get a pass, ever.
Corbyn's thuggish mob causing mayhem on the streets tonight - thiswhat Labour Members and MPs have embraced and support.
Pshaw. What mob? What mayhem? What embrace? I see a march, some scuffles, and a candlelit vigil.
Yes, there will be a few Class War masked trouble-makers (like the incident you show with the photographer, I suppose). Yes people are upset. But mayhem? Don't be so hysterical, precisely with the kind of political agenda that you project onto others.
What the f**k are they turning up for at all? Its not a political protest is it?
Note that I've not particularly blamed Mrs May either. She's not proving very naturally sympathetic, and that's a pity, but she's not shrugged it off either.
The local residents weren't the problem, were they. People with no particular association other than thinking themselves some of kind of revolutionaries, seemed to be popping up on cue, alongside the semi-professional outraged brigade.
A line will have to be taken, or else it will eventually damage the particular cause that the residents may have. The hangers on who have somehow got involved will need to go.
Here's the problem, officials and associates around your party's leader are connected to those hangers on. How much do they know? do they know the plans of hangers on, do they work with them?
Its not something you want looked into.
You want me to condemn the SWP and Class War? Sure, they're troublemaking idiots. But first you demand an explanation of why they're turning up (BECAUSE they're troublemaking idiots, duh), then you allege entirely falsely that they're something to do with Labour. They despise Labour. They think we're right-wing tools of the establishment.
It seems to me, Yokel, that there's only one of us trying to politicise all this, and it's not me.
Actually I didn't suggest that you were politicising. And my concern isn't politicians per se, and there have been many of them, getting on this particular train. for good or for ill.You haven't heard me giving off about David Lammy or Sadiq Khan. They are doing what politicians do, for good or for ill. Ballot boxes decide.
Its where democratic politics and street level stuff that isn't about democratic politics combine. And there is a danger of that occurring in the weeks to come and there is a danger that people of influence within the Labour Party, your party, are playing with it.
Thats anti democratic, and that doesn't get a pass, ever.
Is street-level stuff more or less democratic than security services leaking about an opposition leader?
Corbyn's thuggish mob causing mayhem on the streets tonight - thiswhat Labour Members and MPs have embraced and support.
Pshaw. What mob? What mayhem? What embrace? I see a march, some scuffles, and a candlelit vigil.
Yes, there will be a few Class War masked trouble-makers (like the incident you show with the photographer, I suppose). Yes people are upset. But mayhem? Don't be so hysterical, precisely with the kind of political agenda that you project onto others.
What the f**k are they turning up for at all? Its not a political protest is it?
Note that I've not particularly blamed Mrs May either. She's not proving very naturally sympathetic, and that's a pity, but she's not shrugged it off either.
The local residents weren't the problem, were they. People with no particular association other than thinking themselves some of kind of revolutionaries, seemed to be popping up on cue, alongside the semi-professional outraged brigade.
A line will have to be taken, or else it will eventually damage the particular cause that the residents may have. The hangers on who have somehow got involved will need to go.
Here's the problem, officials and associates around your party's leader are connected to those hangers on. How much do they know? do they know the plans of hangers on, do they work with them?
Its not something you want looked into.
You want me to condemn the SWP and Class War? Sure, they're troublemaking idiots. But first you demand an explanation of why they're turning up (BECAUSE they're troublemaking idiots, duh), then you allege entirely falsely that they're something to do with Labour. They despise Labour. They think we're right-wing tools of the establishment.
It seems to me, Yokel, that there's only one of us trying to politicise all this, and it's not me.
Actually I didn't suggest that you were politicising. And my concern isn't politicians per se, and there have been many of them, getting on this particular train. for good or for ill.You haven't heard me giving off about David Lammy or Sadiq Khan. They are doing what politicians do, for good or for ill. Ballot boxes decide.
Thats anti democratic, and that doesn't get a pass, ever.
Is street-level stuff more or less democratic than security services leaking about an opposition leader?
Less, because one has potential for violence against the democratic process and its outcomes, the other does not.
Anyway I will go to bed now. Apologies if I offended anyone. My anger is probably from reading the whole of this thread. It may not have been well-targeted. Who knows where the fault really lies? Not me, I am not in possession of the facts. Equally, demonstrations are not the preserve of SWP, Class War or anyone else. Those who lost loved ones are thrashing about for answers. The fact they have nowhere to stay compounds their loss. They have a right to be heard. Night all!
Pshaw. What mob? What mayhem? What embrace? I see a march, some scuffles, and a candlelit vigil.
Yes, there will be a few Class War masked trouble-makers (like the incident you show with the photographer, I suppose). Yes people are upset. But mayhem? Don't be so hysterical, precisely with the kind of political agenda that you project onto others.
What the f**k are they turning up for at all? Its not a political protest is it?
Note that I've not particularly blamed Mrs May either. She's not proving very naturally sympathetic, and that's a pity, but she's not shrugged it off either.
The local residents weren't the problem, were they. People with no particular association other than thinking themselves some of kind of revolutionaries, seemed to be popping up on cue, alongside the semi-professional outraged brigade.
A line will have to be taken, or else it will eventually damage the particular cause that the residents may have. The hangers on who have somehow got involved will need to go.
Here's the problem, officials and associates around your party's leader are connected to those hangers on. How much do they know? do they know the plans of hangers on, do they work with them?
Its not something you want looked into.
You want me to condemn the SWP and Class War? Sure, they're troublemaking idiots. But first you demand an explanation of why they're turning up (BECAUSE they're troublemaking idiots, duh), then you allege entirely falsely that they're something to do with Labour. They despise Labour. They think we're right-wing tools of the establishment.
It seems to me, Yokel, that there's only one of us trying to politicise all this, and it's not me.
Actually I didn't suggest that you were politicising. And my concern isn't politicians per se, and there have been many of them, getting on this particular train. for good or for ill.You haven't heard me giving off about David Lammy or Sadiq Khan. They are doing what politicians do, for good or for ill. Ballot boxes decide.
Thats anti democratic, and that doesn't get a pass, ever.
Is street-level stuff more or less democratic than security services leaking about an opposition leader?
Less, because one has potential for violence, the other does not.
Would it be wise for security services in these circumstances to spread doubt and discredit protests if it is believed they have risk of violence?
The housing situation has reached an extent where 59% of the population have taken an essentially Marxist view on property rights.
Remarkable
The one constant of British popular opinion is that the voters hate freedom.
Not quite. They hate people who are a bit richer than they are.
No, the hatred of freedom is applied particularly to poor people. The reason London has a housing shortage in the first place is that people want planning laws that prevent houses being built, mainly to the detriment of people poorer than them. Or look at immigration restrictions: The government, with the support of the voters, will break your family rather than let the spouse of a low-income British person live in Britain.
Pshaw. What mob? What mayhem? What embrace? I see a march, some scuffles, and a candlelit vigil.
Yes, there will be a few Class War masked trouble-makers (like the incident you show with the photographer, I suppose). Yes people are upset. But mayhem? Don't be so hysterical, precisely with the kind of political agenda that you project onto others.
What the f**k are they turning up for at all? Its not a political protest is it?
Its not something you want looked into.
You want me to condemn the SWP and Class War? Sure, they're troublemaking idiots. But first you demand an explanation of why they're turning up (BECAUSE they're troublemaking idiots, duh), then you allege entirely falsely that they're something to do with Labour. They despise Labour. They think we're right-wing tools of the establishment.
It seems to me, Yokel, that there's only one of us trying to politicise all this, and it's not me.
Actually I didn't suggest that you were politicising. And my concern isn't politicians per se, and there have been many of them, getting on this particular train. for good or for ill.You haven't heard me giving off about David Lammy or Sadiq Khan. They are doing what politicians do, for good or for ill. Ballot boxes decide.
Thats anti democratic, and that doesn't get a pass, ever.
Is street-level stuff more or less democratic than security services leaking about an opposition leader?
Less, because one has potential for violence, the other does not.
Would it be wise for security services in these circumstances to spread doubt and discredit protests if it is believed they have risk of violence?
They haven't and that entirely dependent on the situation.
Protest is protest but once you pick up a stone and throw it you are going outside a system that is designed to allow and enable peaceful change.
I probably sound like a jobsworth twat, but it's really bugging me how reporters are questioning the "stay put" policy. It is clear that there was a breakdown in the evacuation procedure in Grenfell, but for me, stay put coupled with phased evacuation is the only way to deal with a highrise incident. By trying to discredit the policy, they're going to make minor incidents in highrise very difficult for FRS around the country.
Well said. I don't think it's just about the media though. There must be a huge temptation to run for it if you know the building is on fire. It surely takes a huge amount of faith in how fire-proof and well-compartmentalised the building is - and how quickly the emergency services will rescue you - to shut your door and stay put inside. What has happened at Grenfell is surely going to undermine people's willingness to follow such counter-intuitive fire instructions. But then the flip side is we get incidents like this:
Mum-to-be could have survived blaze if residents were told about fire doors
A MUM-to-be could have survived a suspected arson attack if she had known her front door was fire resistant, her heartbroken friends claim.
Khabi Abrey, 30, who was more than 30 weeks pregnant with her first child, died after a blaze started in a communal corridor on the ninth floor of the Grampian flats, in Balmoral Road, Westcliff. ...
Neil Fenwick, head of community at Essex Fire Service, revealed all doors are designed to withstand smoke and flames for an hour - meaning Mrs Abrey could still be alive today if she had not tried to escape her flat.
Friend Salome Kerr, 33, said residents were completely unaware of the fire precautions.
Speaking at the meeting, she said: “If Khabi had known that she wouldn’t have opened her door. Something needs to be done.
“We have to be educated about what to do and how to do it.”
Addressing residents from South Essex Homes, Caroline Cooper-Smith, 56, who lives in the tower block, added: “You needed somebody to knock on the doors when the new fire doors were installed.
“I know that you’re not supposed to get in a lift and things like that, but some people might not realise.”
Mrs Abrey died from the effects of smoke inhalation at Southend Hospital two days after the fire on Saturday, May 7.
So, post-Grenfell, suppose that some official had gone round and told everyone they were perfectly safe to stay in their flat, it's all fire-proof for an hour, the fire service will come and rescue you if necessary... how many people will be brave enough to trust what they have been told?
I probably sound like a jobsworth twat, but it's really bugging me how reporters are questioning the "stay put" policy. It is clear that there was a breakdown in the evacuation procedure in Grenfell, but for me, stay put coupled with phased evacuation is the only way to deal with a highrise incident. By trying to discredit the policy, they're going to make minor incidents in highrise very difficult for FRS around the country.
Well said. I don't think it's just about the media though. There must be a huge temptation to run for it if you know the building is on fire. It surely takes a huge amount of faith in how fire-proof and well-compartmentalised the building is - and how quickly the emergency services will rescue you - to shut your door and stay put inside. What has happened at Grenfell is surely going to undermine people's willingness to follow such counter-intuitive fire instructions. But then the flip side is we get incidents like this:
Mum-to-be could have survived blaze if residents were told about fire doors
A MUM-to-be could have survived a suspected arson attack if she had known her front door was fire resistant, her heartbroken friends claim.
Khabi Abrey, 30, who was more than 30 weeks pregnant with her first child, died after a blaze started in a communal corridor on the ninth floor of the Grampian flats, in Balmoral Road, Westcliff. ...
Neil Fenwick, head of community at Essex Fire Service, revealed all doors are designed to withstand smoke and flames for an hour - meaning Mrs Abrey could still be alive today if she had not tried to escape her flat.
Friend Salome Kerr, 33, said residents were completely unaware of the fire precautions.
Speaking at the meeting, she said: “If Khabi had known that she wouldn’t have opened her door. Something needs to be done.
“We have to be educated about what to do and how to do it.”
Addressing residents from South Essex Homes, Caroline Cooper-Smith, 56, who lives in the tower block, added: “You needed somebody to knock on the doors when the new fire doors were installed.
“I know that you’re not supposed to get in a lift and things like that, but some people might not realise.”
Mrs Abrey died from the effects of smoke inhalation at Southend Hospital two days after the fire on Saturday, May 7.
So, post-Grenfell, suppose that some official had gone round and told everyone they were perfectly safe to stay in their flat, it's all fire-proof for an hour, the fire service will come and rescue you if necessary... how many people will be brave enough to trust what they have been told?
I think Grenfell itself would be to blame for people not trusting that advice, rather than media coverage.
I probably sound like a jobsworth twat, but it's really bugging me how reporters are questioning the "stay put" policy. It is clear that there was a breakdown in the evacuation procedure in Grenfell, but for me, stay put coupled with phased evacuation is the only way to deal with a highrise incident. By trying to discredit the policy, they're going to make minor incidents in highrise very difficult for FRS around the country.
Well said. I don't think it's just about the media though. There must be a huge temptation to run for it if you know the building is on fire. It surely takes a huge amount of faith in how fire-proof and well-compartmentalised the building is - and how quickly the emergency services will rescue you - to shut your door and stay put inside. What has happened at Grenfell is surely going to undermine people's willingness to follow such counter-intuitive fire instructions. But then the flip side is we get incidents like this:
Mum-to-be could have survived blaze if residents were told about fire doors ...
So, post-Grenfell, suppose that some official had gone round and told everyone they were perfectly safe to stay in their flat, it's all fire-proof for an hour, the fire service will come and rescue you if necessary... how many people will be brave enough to trust what they have been told?
I think Grenfell itself would be to blame for people not trusting that advice, rather than media coverage.
Yes, that was my point, that's why I said it is not "just about the media". Apologies if I didn't express clearly.
Comments
I don't particularly blame May either, in this case. She simply doesn't have the equipment to respond to the emotions of the situation. Today's interview reminded me of Gordon Brown in his more tone deaf moments.
In other circumstances that might not matter, but in her post election predicament it adds to the difficulty of her remaining in charge.
On topic. May's in serious trouble - but I'll take Evens she is still in power in a week if any one's offering. Peter from Putney?
A line will have to be taken, or else it will eventually damage the particular cause that the residents may have. The hangers on who have somehow got involved will need to go.
Here's the problem, officials and associates around your party's leader are connected to those hangers on. How much do they know? do they know the plans of hangers on, do they work with them?
Its not something you want looked into.
And expecting her to provide any form of public empathy is utterly futile.
Delayed action will stoke public anger.
Having no cause with a cause but moving into its house and shitting in it like a cuckoo in a nest is not going to work well long term. It eats away at legitimacy.
Spending was out of control under Gordon. It is the closest thing to an objective political fact you will ever get.
...The variables that gets forgotten was the low debt level relative to GDP and low interest rates. So much so that we got through a 6% recession, 10 years of anaemic growth, yet we stayed under the 90% of GDP international public debt benchmark that signifies problematic public finances, and had enough wiggle room for a Tory tax cut or two. Public finances were healthy enough to cope with what was thrown at us.
The type of private sector finance that is beloved of free market economics - that was well out of control.
In any normal recession and recovery cycle, very minor adjustments in Brown's public spending trajectory would have been fine, just fine.
You can make a case that Brown spent on the wrong things, or didn't control private finance, but the simple spent too much argument still doesn't wash now.
What is the cause in question?
The local residents weren't the problem, were they. People with no particular association other than thinking themselves some of kind of revolutionaries, seemed to be popping up on cue, alongside the semi-professional outraged brigade.
A line will have to be taken, or else it will eventually damage the particular cause that the residents may have. The hangers on who have somehow got involved will need to go.
Here's the problem, officials and associates around your party's leader are connected to those hangers on. How much do they know? do they know the plans of hangers on, do they work with them?
Its not something you want looked into.
A demonstration took place. Given the circumstances, it was remarkably measured. People let off steam. And why wouldn't they?
What is the cause in question?
Dead fucking children burning alive? Watching your friends die on FB?? Will that do? TWAT.
It wasn't those involved in the demo. It was people with socialist worker party banners you utter idiot.
Now that is the very essence of out of touch. If you've ever been on a demo you would know SW hand out banners.
You may believe they weren't on the demo.
I may be an utter idiot, that is an open question.
There is no doubt you an an unfeeling bastard.
Wonder why you didn't get a majority?
Answering straightforward questions in a debate they voluntarily got involved in seems to be beyond them.
A demonstration took place. Given the circumstances, it was remarkably measured. People let off steam. And why wouldn't they?
What is wrong with that? Seems a reasonable summary of what went on.
We all know that SWP w@nkers have been turning up, uninvited, at all sorts of demos for decades. So if there is something new this time then tell us.
Violent anarchists think everything is political and every disaster is something to exploit. Normally people just eye them irritably and tell them to shove off. So far, on this occasion as well, they have not been able to generate significant violence, and it really is unfair to local residents to imply that they're a violent mob because they shove their way into a town hall reception area or shout at politicians (no worse than I've experienced myself). I think it's understandable that they're annoyed and what we've seen so far is not a disproportionate response - primarily they seem frustrated. Wouldn't we all feel a bit like that?
Note that I've not particularly blamed Mrs May either. She's not proving very naturally sympathetic, and that's a pity, but she's not shrugged it off either.
The local residents weren't the problem, were they. People with no particular association other than thinking themselves some of kind of revolutionaries, seemed to be popping up on cue, alongside the semi-professional outraged brigade.
A line will have to be taken, or else it will eventually damage the particular cause that the residents may have. The hangers on who have somehow got involved will need to go.
Here's the problem, officials and associates around your party's leader are connected to those hangers on. How much do they know? do they know the plans of hangers on, do they work with them?
Its not something you want looked into.
A demonstration took place. Given the circumstances, it was remarkably measured. People let off steam. And why wouldn't they?
What is the cause in question?
Dead fucking children burning alive? Watching your friends die on FB?? Will that do? TWAT.
I ask again, what is the cause they are protesting about? You tell me. Do you even know?
Told you once.
I think perhaps 'did people die unnecessarily and if so, why' would be what you are looking for.
Not sure watching your friends on Facebook was up there in the protest lexicon. Odd you should mention it in your emotionally filled little outburst. Did you watch it on Facebook at all?
People were angry, and rightly so. Not sure where your obsession with SWP came in. People reacted angrily to a traumatic situation. Of course the SWP will try to exploit it. They always do. But they were not the majority of the crowd as you imply.
Nuff said
It doe not make me an "utter idiot" for pointing that out.
It seems to me, Yokel, that there's only one of us trying to politicise all this, and it's not me.
Violent anarchists think everything is political and every disaster is something to exploit. Normally people just eye them irritably and tell them to shove off. So far, on this occasion as well, they have not been able to generate significant violence, and it really is unfair to local residents to imply that they're a violent mob because they shove their way into a town hall reception area or shout at politicians (no worse than I've experienced myself). I think it's understandable that they're annoyed and what we've seen so far is not a disproportionate response - primarily they seem frustrated. Wouldn't we all feel a bit like that?
Note that I've not particularly blamed Mrs May either. She's not proving very naturally sympathetic, and that's a pity, but she's not shrugged it off either.
The local residents weren't the problem, were they. People with no particular association other than thinking themselves some of kind of revolutionaries, seemed to be popping up on cue, alongside the semi-professional outraged brigade.
A line will have to be taken, or else it will eventually damage the particular cause that the residents may have. The hangers on who have somehow got involved will need to go.
Here's the problem, officials and associates around your party's leader are connected to those hangers on. How much do they know? do they know the plans of hangers on, do they work with them?
Its not something you want looked into.
You want me to condemn the SWP and Class War? Sure, they're troublemaking idiots. But first you demand an explanation of why they're turning up (BECAUSE they're troublemaking idiots, duh), then you allege entirely falsely that they're something to do with Labour. They despise Labour. They think we're right-wing tools of the establishment.
It seems to me, Yokel, that there's only one of us trying to politicise all this, and it's not me.
Ironically, people on the Left actually KNOW what C**** Class War and SWP are. They hijack every cause for their nihilistic ends, however noble.
People on the Right seem to think that the presence of anyone from either group within a mile radius is a good reason to shut down any legitimate grievance.
So according to the Telegraph a "businessman" with no criminal record, whose brother stood AGAINST a Corbynite in the general election, "was seen appealing for calm as he read out a statement from the council". This happened at a protest he organised after he had listened to his friend live-broadcasting until she and her children perished, trapped on the 23rd floor of Grenfell Tower.
??
Its where democratic politics and street level stuff that isn't about democratic politics combine. And there is a danger of that occurring in the weeks to come and there is a danger that people of influence within the Labour Party, your party, are playing with it.
Thats anti democratic, and that doesn't get a pass, ever.
Who knows where the fault really lies?
Not me, I am not in possession of the facts.
Equally, demonstrations are not the preserve of SWP, Class War or anyone else.
Those who lost loved ones are thrashing about for answers. The fact they have nowhere to stay compounds their loss. They have a right to be heard.
Night all!
I've decided we need a populist to fight Corbyn, and that is not Hammond so it has to be Boris.
Fight fire with fire.
- I don't know why but it seems worse than the riots.
Mum-to-be could have survived blaze if residents were told about fire doors
A MUM-to-be could have survived a suspected arson attack if she had known her front door was fire resistant, her heartbroken friends claim.
Khabi Abrey, 30, who was more than 30 weeks pregnant with her first child, died after a blaze started in a communal corridor on the ninth floor of the Grampian flats, in Balmoral Road, Westcliff. ...
Neil Fenwick, head of community at Essex Fire Service, revealed all doors are designed to withstand smoke and flames for an hour - meaning Mrs Abrey could still be alive today if she had not tried to escape her flat.
Friend Salome Kerr, 33, said residents were completely unaware of the fire precautions.
Speaking at the meeting, she said: “If Khabi had known that she wouldn’t have opened her door. Something needs to be done.
“We have to be educated about what to do and how to do it.”
Addressing residents from South Essex Homes, Caroline Cooper-Smith, 56, who lives in the tower block, added: “You needed somebody to knock on the doors when the new fire doors were installed.
“I know that you’re not supposed to get in a lift and things like that, but some people might not realise.”
Mrs Abrey died from the effects of smoke inhalation at Southend Hospital two days after the fire on Saturday, May 7.
So, post-Grenfell, suppose that some official had gone round and told everyone they were perfectly safe to stay in their flat, it's all fire-proof for an hour, the fire service will come and rescue you if necessary... how many people will be brave enough to trust what they have been told?
http://news.sky.com/story/london-mayor-sadiq-khan-wants-pms-answers-today-over-fire-failures-10917554