Yes, the irony is that the millennials who gave us this chaos have cemented in place the tax-free Winter Fuel Allowance for millionaires, the Triple Lock, and the protection for well-off heirs of the inheritances from those who need social care at home. The Just About Managing will just have to keep managing whilst the oldies are protected.
I think her best hope for a good place in history is to see us through a decent Brexit and then resign on health grounds.
Another Brexit fantasy.
It's like those project plans for major infrastructure projects with ambitious timelines for unlikely delivery that include as a milestone "A miracle happens here"
Brexit is a process that will take a decade to complete, unless you mean crash out of the EU, which doesn't chime with "decent"
I think her best hope for a good place in history is to see us through a decent Brexit and then resign on health grounds.
Another Brexit fantasy.
It's like those project plans for major infrastructure projects with ambitious timelines for unlikely delivery that include as a milestone "A miracle happens here"
Brexit is a process that will take a decade to complete, unless you mean crash out of the EU, which doesn't chime with "decent"
Agereing a Brexit deal (that then takes years to implement) can be done by 2019.
"I firmly believe that Theresa May has a strong sense of duty. Many would have resigned office on Friday morning but I believe that she has stayed in office out of a sense that would be letting the nation down."
I don't agree with this. She instigated an election, failed and expects to carry on as before. She cannot have a personality transplant and her communication skills are unlikely to suddenly improve. She has suspect judgement and is pretty weak when push comes to shove. Do we really want someone like this negotiating Brexit? She is only staying as PM because she wants to stay in office as long as she can muster enough support in the commons to do so. This is not like John Major after the ERM, he did at least win a majority where as she did not.
Alastair is absolutely right that Theresa May has a strong sense of duty. He is also absolutely right that, in the rush by commentators who a few weeks ago were praising her to the hilt to go to the opposite extreme, her good qualities are being forgotten. She was, after all, an excellent Home Secretary, as we were reminded only just over a week ago with the demonstration, alas in tragic in circumstances, of just how well prepared the police were for dealing with a a terrorist attack.
But, we are seeing the Peter Principle applying in spades. Even if we weren't, politics is an unforgiving game, and the fact is that she has screwed up catastrophically. Even that might not be terminal were it not for the fact that she didn't need to do anything at all. She has to go, the only question yet to be decided is when.
When do you think she'll be gone?
Dunno. This is a more unpredictable situation than anything since the 1970s.
The delay with the DUP is detail and poker. Both have no interest is seeing corbyn in and both know this but a considerable chicken and egg situation is present as both circle for who an as yet theoretical corbyn led govt would be worse for.
Much of what the DUP woukd like at local level is driven by the local Assembly being there to make use of it. Its in sinn fein boycott. The government will sign cheques but preferably not unless the Assembly is up and running. The starting point therefore fir the government is that no cash flows until then. Part of the surround is how to get the show at Stormont running again. This means telling Sinn Fein that their boycott is out of road.
The second hitch is detail. There are a number of down the list DUP requests plus one or two top list issues which have national implications that are still in discussions. Sone of the national level issues may well be changes the government is going to make anyway from previous manifesto ideas that tanked. The down the lists though are smaller but possibly sensitive.
Most big list issues are agreed.
With respect, how do you know all this?
And they can't get Stormont running without the SF. The alternatives are direct rule or another NI election. The DUp won't want to defend an NI election whilst they are propping up a discredited Uk government.
"I firmly believe that Theresa May has a strong sense of duty. Many would have resigned office on Friday morning but I believe that she has stayed in office out of a sense that would be letting the nation down. If she wants to serve the nation best, she will need to make some dramatic adjustments. If she is allowed the chance and she manages it, she might even find that she becomes a better Prime Minister".
Do you really believe that or are you being nice? Everything about Mrs May's character suggests a woman seething with ambition and pride and any tought that she'd accept being the shortest serving PM for over a hundred years was never an option..
I think Theresa does have a strong sense of duty. Her chief problem is her confidence in public, and she struggles to quickly think on her feet or read other people. She can do hard thinking, but needs to take her time to do it.
Unfortunately this comes across as equivocation and Just Another Typical Politician.
Her problem is that she didn't really adapt her style in moving from the Home Office to No.10, and is perhaps unable to.
Given all the talk about abortion and the DUP, was wodnering are there any Labour MPs left who are opposed to abortion now the likes of Joe Benton, Jim Dobbin and Tom Clarke are no longer in Parliament ?
I think Theresa does have a strong sense of duty. Her chief problem is her confidence in public, and she struggles to quickly think on her feet or read other people. She can do hard thinking, but needs to take her time to do it.
Unfortunately this comes across as equivocation and Just Another Typical Politician.
Her problem is that she didn't really adapt her style in moving from the Home Office to No.10, and is perhaps unable to.
Yes, the irony is that the millennials who gave us this chaos have cemented in place the tax-free Winter Fuel Allowance for millionaires, the Triple Lock, and the protection for well-off heirs of the inheritances from those who need social care at home. The Just About Managing will just have to keep managing whilst the oldies are protected.
I wouldn't blame the millenials for giving us chaos, RIchard. What can be more Tory-to-be than folk acting in their own self-interest?
But I enjoyed your post. The irony is as rich as Croesus. But the cupboard of solutions is bare - Old Mother Hubbard is as skint as a baglady.
I think there are three elements of Brexit which will be changed by Labour amendments to the Queens Speech. I believe these will have majority support in the House.
1. To unilaterally give residence rights to EU nationals and not use them as a bargaining chip.
2. To drop the target of less than 100,000 net immigrants that was only in the manifesto to attract UKIP voters.
3. To drop the idea that" no deal is better than a bad deal." This is only useful in a negotiation in the sense that a threat to shoot yourself in the head if you don't get your own way is useful.
The first is something I could agree to entirely. I said months ago we should have unilaterally done this. It would have shown we were honest brokers in this whole negotiation and it would have had the added very important bonus of being the right thing to do no matter what the other side do. I think it was deeply dumb not to do this.
The second doesn't concern me at all because I have no issue with immigration.
The last one is the deal breaker. If the EU knows we have removed the possibility of rejecting a bad deal there is absolutely no pressure on them to negotiate at all. In spite of what the Eurofanatic morons on here say, there will currently be a negotiation and the EU does want a reasonable result and do fear we would just walk away. If that threat is gone they will do nothing at all except try to impose a solution. It would be Cameron's non-negotiations all over again. It is a truly dumb idea.
I think Theresa does have a strong sense of duty. Her chief problem is her confidence in public, and she struggles to quickly think on her feet or read other people. She can do hard thinking, but needs to take her time to do it.
Unfortunately this comes across as equivocation and Just Another Typical Politician.
Her problem is that she didn't really adapt her style in moving from the Home Office to No.10, and is perhaps unable to.
It's not just style.
And the people who did the thinking for her have just been fired
The delay with the DUP is detail and poker. Both have no interest is seeing corbyn in and both know this but a considerable chicken and egg situation is present as both circle for who an as yet theoretical corbyn led govt would be worse for.
Much of what the DUP woukd like at local level is driven by the local Assembly being there to make use of it. Its in sinn fein boycott. The government will sign cheques but preferably not unless the Assembly is up and running. The starting point therefore fir the government is that no cash flows until then. Part of the surround is how to get the show at Stormont running again. This means telling Sinn Fein that their boycott is out of road.
The second hitch is detail. There are a number of down the list DUP requests plus one or two top list issues which have national implications that are still in discussions. Sone of the national level issues may well be changes the government is going to make anyway from previous manifesto ideas that tanked. The down the lists though are smaller but possibly sensitive.
Most big list issues are agreed.
With respect, how do you know all this?
And they can't get Stormont running without the SF. The alternatives are direct rule or another NI election. The DUp won't want to defend an NI election whilst they are propping up a discredited Uk government.
Direct Rule with the DUP holding the balance of power in Westminster. That just isn't going to wash..
The idea of using the DUP to support a Westminster government started off as utterly insane and has gone downhill since then....
I think Theresa does have a strong sense of duty. Her chief problem is her confidence in public, and she struggles to quickly think on her feet or read other people. She can do hard thinking, but needs to take her time to do it.
Unfortunately this comes across as equivocation and Just Another Typical Politician.
Her problem is that she didn't really adapt her style in moving from the Home Office to No.10, and is perhaps unable to.
Is it me, or are PMs who become mid Parliament the worst for their parties?
Theresa May - Nuff said
Gordon Brown - Again nuff said
Joihn Major - Ultimately saw the Tories reduced to a rump in 1997
Jim Callaghan - Should have held an election in the Autumn of 1978 when Labour were ahead in the polls, missed the boat, and helped usher in 18 years of Tory rule
Lord Home - Hospital pass
You'd probably have to say SuperMac was the last mid term PM not to seriously screw up.
Given all the talk about abortion and the DUP, was wodnering are there any Labour MPs left who are opposed to abortion now the likes of Joe Benton, Jim Dobbin and Tom Clarke are no longer in Parliament ?
The idea that the DUP are going to insist on changing anything that happens around this or civil partnership on the mainland is utterly ridiculous.
"I firmly believe that Theresa May has a strong sense of duty. Many would have resigned office on Friday morning but I believe that she has stayed in office out of a sense that would be letting the nation down. If she wants to serve the nation best, she will need to make some dramatic adjustments. If she is allowed the chance and she manages it, she might even find that she becomes a better Prime Minister".
Do you really believe that or are you being nice? Everything about Mrs May's character suggests a woman seething with ambition and pride and any tought that she'd accept being the shortest serving PM for over a hundred years was never an option..
Over-promoted. Gordon Brown without the brains.
Though her 42% is rather better than his 29%
I think Brown would have got more than that in a snap election of 2007 .So the comparison is risible and you know it.
"I firmly believe that Theresa May has a strong sense of duty. Many would have resigned office on Friday morning but I believe that she has stayed in office out of a sense that would be letting the nation down."
I don't agree with this. She instigated an election, failed and expects to carry on as before. She cannot have a personality transplant and her communication skills are unlikely to suddenly improve. She has suspect judgement and is pretty weak when push comes to shove. Do we really want someone like this negotiating Brexit? She is only staying as PM because she wants to stay in office as long as she can muster enough support in the commons to do so. This is not like John Major after the ERM, he did at least win a majority where as she did not.
Even if she resigns as Tory leader she will have to stay PM until the autumn and a new Tory leader is elected
The Tories clearly want the full works regarding a contest for leader, this time. That takes months.
There has to be a QS, or an election (or let Corbyn have a go). That means there has to be a deal, most probably with the DUP. A deal, and a QS, needs a leader.
The Tories clearly want the full works regarding a contest for leader, this time. That takes months.
There has to be a QS, or an election (or let Corbyn have a go). That means there has to be a deal, most probably with the DUP. A deal, and a QS, needs a leader.
The Tories clearly want the full works regarding a contest for leader, this time. That takes months.
There has to be a QS, or an election (or let Corbyn have a go). That means there has to be a deal, most probably with the DUP. A deal, and a QS, needs a leader.
Resign and remain PM while Tories find a successor.
Theresa May cannot and will not be allowed to fight another election. But there has to be an orderly transition if possible. The Commons maths is enough in her favour to allow that. But she will be being told she's on borrowed time and how she uses that will determine whether she's remembered as the worst PM ever or one of the worst PMs ever.
Although we know the good of the country is not a Tory priority, if she were ever to think about trying to govern in the national interest Mrs May might:
1. Keep as far away as possible from the swivel-eyed Tory right.
2. Stop pandering to the right wing press.
3. Apologise for her citizens of nowhere and saboteur sabre rattling.
4. Start talking about Europe as our friend, not our enemy.
5. Run a mile from Donald Trump.
6 Plead with David Cameron to come back as an MP and immediately take the Chiltern Hundreds?
Theresa could step down and Dave could contest the ensuing Maidenhead by-election. For everyone in Britain, seeing Dave stride up to the Downing Street podium would only be coupled with a feeling of blessed relief. After a bit of chillaxing with the DUP he'd have them eating out of his hands, and sunshine would rule the day once more.
He would still have Corbyn and a resurgent Farage led UKIP to contend with
He'd crush them; without breaking sweat.
Oh really? Just like he crushed Corbyn in the 2016 locals when Labour won the popular vote by 1% or Farage in the EU referendum you mean?
Is it me, or are PMs who become mid Parliament the worst for their parties?
Theresa May - Nuff said
Gordon Brown - Again nuff said
Joihn Major - Ultimately saw the Tories reduced to a rump in 1997
Jim Callaghan - Should have held an election in the Autumn of 1978 when Labour were ahead in the polls, missed the boat, and helped usher in 18 years of Tory rule
Lord Home - Hospital pass
You'd probably have to say SuperMac was the lost mid term PM not to seriously screw up.
Yeah, but super Mac took over from Eden who did screw up.
And you can go back further than that, Chamberlain after Baldwin. Arthur Balfour after Lord "Bobs You Uncle" Salisbury.
I bet if you went back ever further you'd still find the same pattern...
Although we know the good of the country is not a Tory priority, if she were ever to think about trying to govern in the national interest Mrs May might:
1. Keep as far away as possible from the swivel-eyed Tory right.
2. Stop pandering to the right wing press.
3. Apologise for her citizens of nowhere and saboteur sabre rattling.
4. Start talking about Europe as our friend, not our enemy.
5. Run a mile from Donald Trump.
Why stop there? Why not abolish the Conservative Party and give up contesting elections for good?
Is it me, or are PMs who become mid Parliament the worst for their parties?
Theresa May - Nuff said
Gordon Brown - Again nuff said
Joihn Major - Ultimately saw the Tories reduced to a rump in 1997
Jim Callaghan - Should have held an election in the Autumn of 1978 when Labour were ahead in the polls, missed the boat, and helped usher in 18 years of Tory rule
Lord Home - Hospital pass
You'd probably have to say SuperMac was the lost mid term PM not to seriously screw up.
Think this judgment is harsh on Major. In the circumstances he was dealt he surely did better than "par". Obviously election night 1997 was an awful time to be a Tory - but of the candidates on offer, how many of them could have managed 1992?
"I firmly believe that Theresa May has a strong sense of duty. Many would have resigned office on Friday morning but I believe that she has stayed in office out of a sense that would be letting the nation down."
I don't agree with this. She instigated an election, failed and expects to carry on as before. She cannot have a personality transplant and her communication skills are unlikely to suddenly improve. She has suspect judgement and is pretty weak when push comes to shove. Do we really want someone like this negotiating Brexit? She is only staying as PM because she wants to stay in office as long as she can muster enough support in the commons to do so. This is not like John Major after the ERM, he did at least win a majority where as she did not.
Even if she resigns as Tory leader she will have to stay PM until the autumn and a new Tory leader is elected
I think it could be she is announcing her decision and timetable to leave today with the cabinet first, and then the 1922 Committee second.
LOL at blaming millennials for creating chaos. There is no obligation nor duty to vote for the Conservative Party. They are not owed a majority. It's this kind of entitlement to govern from the Conservative Party which is precisely why they lost their majority in the first place. Some of this site have been so bitter towards my generation, it's one of the reasons why I'm enjoying this GE result.
Moreover, it's hardly as if the next Conservative government had they won a majority under May, would have actually addressed the concerns Millennials have anyway. The issue with the Conservative manifesto is that while it took things away from the baby boomers, it said very little in the way of helping JAMS and young people - that is one of the reasons why the manifesto was so unpopular with pretty much everyone. There was very little in there for 65+, the middle-aged, and young people to like.
Is it me, or are PMs who become mid Parliament the worst for their parties?
Theresa May - Nuff said
Gordon Brown - Again nuff said
Joihn Major - Ultimately saw the Tories reduced to a rump in 1997
Jim Callaghan - Should have held an election in the Autumn of 1978 when Labour were ahead in the polls, missed the boat, and helped usher in 18 years of Tory rule
Lord Home - Hospital pass
You'd probably have to say SuperMac was the last mid term PM not to seriously screw up.
Is it me, or are PMs who become mid Parliament the worst for their parties?
.....
Jim Callaghan - Should have held an election in the Autumn of 1978 when Labour were ahead in the polls, missed the boat, and helped usher in 18 years of Tory rule
Wasn`t Jim Callaghan prevented from gong then by the terms of the Lib-Lab Pact?
"I firmly believe that Theresa May has a strong sense of duty. Many would have resigned office on Friday morning but I believe that she has stayed in office out of a sense that would be letting the nation down. If she wants to serve the nation best, she will need to make some dramatic adjustments. If she is allowed the chance and she manages it, she might even find that she becomes a better Prime Minister".
Do you really believe that or are you being nice? Everything about Mrs May's character suggests a woman seething with ambition and pride and any tought that she'd accept being the shortest serving PM for over a hundred years was never an option..
Over-promoted. Gordon Brown without the brains.
Though her 42% is rather better than his 29%
I think Brown would have got more than that in a snap election of 2007 .So the comparison is risible and you know it.
No he wouldn't, after the Tory conference of 2007 polls had Labour under 40%
Theresa May cannot and will not be allowed to fight another election. But there has to be an orderly transition if possible. The Commons maths is enough in her favour to allow that. But she will be being told she's on borrowed time and how she uses that will determine whether she's remembered as the worst PM ever or one of the worst PMs ever.
Although we know the good of the country is not a Tory priority, if she were ever to think about trying to govern in the national interest Mrs May might:
1. Keep as far away as possible from the swivel-eyed Tory right.
2. Stop pandering to the right wing press.
3. Apologise for her citizens of nowhere and saboteur sabre rattling.
4. Start talking about Europe as our friend, not our enemy.
5. Run a mile from Donald Trump.
6 Plead with David Cameron to come back as an MP and immediately take the Chiltern Hundreds?
Theresa could step down and Dave could contest the ensuing Maidenhead by-election. For everyone in Britain, seeing Dave stride up to the Downing Street podium would only be coupled with a feeling of blessed relief. After a bit of chillaxing with the DUP he'd have them eating out of his hands, and sunshine would rule the day once more.
If May steps down as PM, I think she will stay on in Maidenhead. She doesn't have much of a hinterland and I can't see her wanting to do the speaking circuit.
"I firmly believe that Theresa May has a strong sense of duty. Many would have resigned office on Friday morning but I believe that she has stayed in office out of a sense that would be letting the nation down."
I don't agree with this. She instigated an election, failed and expects to carry on as before. She cannot have a personality transplant and her communication skills are unlikely to suddenly improve. She has suspect judgement and is pretty weak when push comes to shove. Do we really want someone like this negotiating Brexit? She is only staying as PM because she wants to stay in office as long as she can muster enough support in the commons to do so. This is not like John Major after the ERM, he did at least win a majority where as she did not.
Even if she resigns as Tory leader she will have to stay PM until the autumn and a new Tory leader is elected
You keep saying this but Theresa May's own election took just two or three weeks.
Although we know the good of the country is not a Tory priority, if she were ever to think about trying to govern in the national interest Mrs May might:
1. Keep as far away as possible from the swivel-eyed Tory right.
2. Stop pandering to the right wing press.
3. Apologise for her citizens of nowhere and saboteur sabre rattling.
4. Start talking about Europe as our friend, not our enemy.
5. Run a mile from Donald Trump.
She needs the swivel/eyed Tory right to get the Queen's Speech passed.
Is it me, or are PMs who become mid Parliament the worst for their parties?
Theresa May - Nuff said
Gordon Brown - Again nuff said
Joihn Major - Ultimately saw the Tories reduced to a rump in 1997
Jim Callaghan - Should have held an election in the Autumn of 1978 when Labour were ahead in the polls, missed the boat, and helped usher in 18 years of Tory rule
Lord Home - Hospital pass
You'd probably have to say SuperMac was the last mid term PM not to seriously screw up.
Profoundly disagree re Major. A very good man who led with an understated dignity and class. History will judge him far more kindly than the electorate (and even then, said electorate gave him the most votes in history once).
Is it me, or are PMs who become mid Parliament the worst for their parties?
Theresa May - Nuff said
Gordon Brown - Again nuff said
Joihn Major - Ultimately saw the Tories reduced to a rump in 1997
Jim Callaghan - Should have held an election in the Autumn of 1978 when Labour were ahead in the polls, missed the boat, and helped usher in 18 years of Tory rule
Lord Home - Hospital pass
You'd probably have to say SuperMac was the lost mid term PM not to seriously screw up.
Think this judgment is harsh on Major. In the circumstances he was dealt he surely did better than "par". Obviously election night 1997 was an awful time to be a Tory - but of the candidates on offer, how many of them could have managed 1992?
I reckon a Heseltine or a Clarke would have gotten a similar result in 1992.
A question which no one seems able to answer is: will the 2018 constituency boundaries be implemented given the new parliamentary arithmetic? Will it get through the Commons?. Because if it does get through, and an election can be put off until then, Labour may well find its curent hubris to be premature.
Actually the Tories are helped a little. SF not taking those 9 seats makes the practical majority required 296 (against 322 now) and the Tories would therefore be able to govern alone with more comfort.
SF can change its policy at the drop of a hat though, especially a bowler hat.
Sinn Fein will not take up their seats in the House of Commons.
It's not just that they won't swear allegiance to the Queen, or that they want out of the UK, it's that they see the British Government as a foreign government and a hostile occupying power at that. It is therefore unthinkable that they would participate in the House of Commons as part of a British government.
Meeks is a strange one, when it comes to Brexit he's irrational and rude, then he writes insightful thread headers such as this.
I thought May would resign as Cameron did, humiliated and sulking, she might just be made of sterner stuff.
Perhaps the problem is that you're the irrational one about Brexit. Just a thought.
I've been on the wrong side in lots of elections, every time I've shrugged and moved on, not spent years saying how stupid/xenophobic/racist etc etc the other lot are.
Theresa May cannot and will not be allowed to fight another election. But there has to be an orderly transition if possible. The Commons maths is enough in her favour to allow that. But she will be being told she's on borrowed time and how she uses that will determine whether she's remembered as the worst PM ever or one of the worst PMs ever.
Although we know the good of the country is not a Tory priority, if she were ever to think about trying to govern in the national interest Mrs May might:
1. Keep as far away as possible from the swivel-eyed Tory right.
2. Stop pandering to the right wing press.
3. Apologise for her citizens of nowhere and saboteur sabre rattling.
4. Start talking about Europe as our friend, not our enemy.
5. Run a mile from Donald Trump.
6 Plead with David Cameron to come back as an MP and immediately take the Chiltern Hundreds?
Theresa could step down and Dave could contest the ensuing Maidenhead by-election. For everyone in Britain, seeing Dave stride up to the Downing Street podium would only be coupled with a feeling of blessed relief. After a bit of chillaxing with the DUP he'd have them eating out of his hands, and sunshine would rule the day once more.
He would still have Corbyn and a resurgent Farage led UKIP to contend with
He'd crush them; without breaking sweat.
Oh really? Just like he crushed Corbyn in the 2016 locals when Labour won the popular vote by 1% or Farage in the EU referendum you mean?
The only conservative I can see going twelve rounds with Killer Corb is Ruthless Ruth.
Is it me, or are PMs who become mid Parliament the worst for their parties?
Theresa May - Nuff said
Gordon Brown - Again nuff said
Joihn Major - Ultimately saw the Tories reduced to a rump in 1997
Jim Callaghan - Should have held an election in the Autumn of 1978 when Labour were ahead in the polls, missed the boat, and helped usher in 18 years of Tory rule
Lord Home - Hospital pass
You'd probably have to say SuperMac was the lost mid term PM not to seriously screw up.
Think this judgment is harsh on Major. In the circumstances he was dealt he surely did better than "par". Obviously election night 1997 was an awful time to be a Tory - but of the candidates on offer, how many of them could have managed 1992?
I reckon a Heseltine or a Clarke would have gotten a similar result in 1992.
But yes I'm being harsh on Major.
I disagree with that. Heseltine was more divisive, and Clarke at the time didn't have quite the same reputation due to his bruising image as a Cabinet minister before his stint as Chancellor.
Yes, the irony is that the millennials who gave us this chaos have cemented in place the tax-free Winter Fuel Allowance for millionaires, the Triple Lock, and the protection for well-off heirs of the inheritances from those who need social care at home. The Just About Managing will just have to keep managing whilst the oldies are protected.
Come on Richard, you're smarter than that.
The Tories tried to play the game on labours turf - and lost.
The tories are the old peoples party with nothing to offer the u35's - and little to offer the u45's.
Con and the Lib Dems - Supply and confidence in exchange for a third referendum/referendum on the Brexit deal
The very first thing May *should* have done on Friday was to put an offer on the table to Farron.
He'd have refused it, of course, but then Con-DUP would've been seen, at least by some, as a last resort that Farron forced the country into by not cooperating in the interest of the greater good.
May consistently misses these opportunities to make others look bad or take some of the rap.
LOL at blaming millennials for creating chaos. There is no obligation nor duty to vote for the Conservative Party. They are not owed a majority. It's this kind of entitlement to govern from the Conservative Party which is precisely why they lost their majority in the first place. Some of this site have been so bitter towards my generation, it's one of the reasons why I'm enjoying this GE result.
Moreover, it's hardly as if the next Conservative government had they won a majority under May, would have actually addressed the concerns Millennials have anyway. The issue with the Conservative manifesto is that while it took things away from the baby boomers, it said very little in the way of helping JAMS and young people - that is one of the reasons why the manifesto was so unpopular with pretty much everyone. There was very little in there for 65+, the middle-aged, and young people to like.
I expect the next Labour government to be very left-wing economically and socially, in a way that'll make me miss Gordon Brown.
I don't think I'm going to enjoy it very much. I might sign-up to the anti-depressants Sean Fear is taking.
A question which no one seems able to answer is: will the 2018 constituency boundaries be implemented given the new parliamentary arithmetic? Will it get through the Commons?. Because if it does get through, and an election can be put off until then, Labour may well find its curent hubris to be premature.
Actually the Tories are helped a little. SF not taking those 9 seats makes the practical majority required 296 (against 322 now) and the Tories would therefore be able to govern alone with more comfort.
SF can change its policy at the drop of a hat though, especially a bowler hat.
Sinn Fein will not take up their seats in the House of Commons.
It's not just that they won't swear allegiance to the Queen, or that they want out of the UK, it's that they see the British Government as a foreign government and a hostile occupying power at that. It is therefore unthinkable that they would participate in the House of Commons as part of a British government.
Is it me, or are PMs who become mid Parliament the worst for their parties?
Theresa May - Nuff said
Gordon Brown - Again nuff said
Joihn Major - Ultimately saw the Tories reduced to a rump in 1997
Jim Callaghan - Should have held an election in the Autumn of 1978 when Labour were ahead in the polls, missed the boat, and helped usher in 18 years of Tory rule
Lord Home - Hospital pass
You'd probably have to say SuperMac was the last mid term PM not to seriously screw up.
Con and the Lib Dems - Supply and confidence in exchange for a third referendum/referendum on the Brexit deal
Am amazed May rushed to the Palace and made her weird statement in Downing Street without even sounding out the LD's. The other one is the SNP. New powers for Scotland, a 2nd referendum, a couple of Cabinet posts, and, more importantly, a big majority. A weakened Tory Party and Nicola (the 2 big losers of this election), could claim victory!
A question which no one seems able to answer is: will the 2018 constituency boundaries be implemented given the new parliamentary arithmetic? Will it get through the Commons?. Because if it does get through, and an election can be put off until then, Labour may well find its curent hubris to be premature.
Actually the Tories are helped a little. SF not taking those 9 seats makes the practical majority required 296 (against 322 now) and the Tories would therefore be able to govern alone with more comfort.
SF can change its policy at the drop of a hat though, especially a bowler hat.
No, no they can't, not unless the requirement to swear allegiance to the Crown to take up one's seat as an MP is removed. Even if it were, there's still the republican doctrine that to take up sears in the British parliament is to recognize and legitimize British sovereignty over NI to overcome.
Is it me, or are PMs who become mid Parliament the worst for their parties?
Theresa May - Nuff said
Gordon Brown - Again nuff said
Joihn Major - Ultimately saw the Tories reduced to a rump in 1997
Jim Callaghan - Should have held an election in the Autumn of 1978 when Labour were ahead in the polls, missed the boat, and helped usher in 18 years of Tory rule
Lord Home - Hospital pass
You'd probably have to say SuperMac was the last mid term PM not to seriously screw up.
Profoundly disagree re Major. A very good man who led with an understated dignity and class. History will judge him far more kindly than the electorate (and even then, said electorate gave him the most votes in history once).
Oh I agree, I'm a huge fan of Sir John Major, I blame the 1997 defeat on the likes of the IDS and the sleazy Tories than I do on Major.
I think Theresa does have a strong sense of duty. Her chief problem is her confidence in public, and she struggles to quickly think on her feet or read other people. She can do hard thinking, but needs to take her time to do it.
Unfortunately this comes across as equivocation and Just Another Typical Politician.
Her problem is that she didn't really adapt her style in moving from the Home Office to No.10, and is perhaps unable to.
Yes, the irony is that the millennials who gave us this chaos have cemented in place the tax-free Winter Fuel Allowance for millionaires, the Triple Lock, and the protection for well-off heirs of the inheritances from those who need social care at home. The Just About Managing will just have to keep managing whilst the oldies are protected.
Come on richard, you're smarter than that.
The tories tried to play the game on labours turf - and lost.
Conservatism is in crisis. It's become the old peoples party.
Macronism is the future for the UK. We were already half-way there with the LibCon coalition; we just need to add some more muscular pro-Europeanism.
Just watched a video of Kwarteng giving an interview in C4, he's just so smooth and confident. It's the complete opposite of Theresa. No nervousness, he's clearly been well briefed and he is flexible enough to answer the questions being asked. He also says that we'd only leave the single market to stop free movement and he gets the point across that Labour have the same view, one of the only politicians on our side to make that point.
He deserves a shot at the top job, we need to have a full leadership election and I hope he gets serious backing for it from some of the old guard who's time has clearly passed.
I agree, I like him.
I first met him about 16 years ago when I was a Tory Council leader and he was a recent graduate. He impressed me then and I felt sure he was destined for great things.
But he's been in Parliament for 7 years now and hasn't really advanced. He's a year older than Blair when he became leader of Labour. Only 2 years younger than Cameron when he became PM.
I just have no idea why he isn't in the Cabinet - there must be a reason.... he's seriously posh of course...
I get that point. In principle. But as ever it is the devil in the details. It is an emotive "cry freedom" view that of course is perfectly legitimate. But it is a false premise. These are the people who voted Leave to reclaim sovereignty but, as has been confirmed by David "Arch Brexiter" Davis, we were always sovereign, it was just that "it didn't feel like it".
So when someone says "thank god we are out of the EU and yes I'd be happy with the EEA/EFTA" it is the height of illogicality and I think an interesting topic for debate.
There is nothing illogical about it at all. The scope and range of the influence of any of the EFTA institutions upon us is absolutely miniscule compared to the EU. No one is suggesting we should cut ourselves off from the world. What we are saying is that our interactions with our countries should be bound by strictly limited treaties from which we can withdraw if we chose, not by self perpetuating and self governing institutions which influence almost every aspects of our lives.
Only the most fanatical Europhiles like yourself fail to see the difference.
I wouldn't have me down as a fanatical Europhile. To the naked eye, EEA/EFTA is the same as the EU. You can bleat about the nuances of the EFTA Court vs the ECJ (and do you think there will be greater or less convergence between the two ahead?) and scweam and scweam that we don't understand, but, Richard, you are wrong and you know it.
We have always been sovereign, you want to sign us up to a convention which is substantially the same as the one you have just voted to leave, and all you can do is flail around wishing it wasn't so.
Of course I am not wrong. There is a long list of areas - actually everything outside of the specifics of the Single Market - that is not controlled by the EU if we move to EFTA.
If you think the EU is just the single market then you are even more ignorant than I thought.
Some of the areas not covered by the EEA
Agriculture Economic affairs Education External Trade Fisheries Foreign Policy Justice and Home Affairs Security Policy
There are loads more and of course we remove ourselves from the possibility of 'creep' that we currently see with the ECJ and the EU. No more self amending treaties or decisions from the ECJ based on Ever Closer Union.
EEA membership is whole magnitudes better for us than EU membership. Only you fanatics try and hide that because you are frightened people might accept it as a good result and so be happier about leaving the EU.
Yes, the irony is that the millennials who gave us this chaos have cemented in place the tax-free Winter Fuel Allowance for millionaires, the Triple Lock, and the protection for well-off heirs of the inheritances from those who need social care at home. The Just About Managing will just have to keep managing whilst the oldies are protected.
Come on Richard, you're smarter than that.
The Tories tried to play the game on labours turf - and lost.
The tories are the old peoples party with nothing to offer the u35's - and little to offer the u45's.
Conservatism is in crisis.
Ironically enough, it was trying hard to be less so at this election.
Is it me, or are PMs who become mid Parliament the worst for their parties?
Theresa May - Nuff said
Gordon Brown - Again nuff said
Joihn Major - Ultimately saw the Tories reduced to a rump in 1997
Jim Callaghan - Should have held an election in the Autumn of 1978 when Labour were ahead in the polls, missed the boat, and helped usher in 18 years of Tory rule
Lord Home - Hospital pass
You'd probably have to say SuperMac was the last mid term PM not to seriously screw up.
Profoundly disagree re Major. A very good man who led with an understated dignity and class. History will judge him far more kindly than the electorate (and even then, said electorate gave him the most votes in history once).
Oh I agree, I'm a huge fan of Sir John Major, I blame the 1997 defeat on the likes of the IDS and the sleazy Tories than I do on Major.
My goodness. He was rubbish. Admittedly May and Cameron make him look better than he did, but he was the political equivalent of a 'kick me' sign on the back of the Tory party.
To be honest, I'm feeling sorry for Theresa May now.
This is probably a fatal sentiment for her. But I genuinely think her motives were good and she meant well.
She is a lifelong loyal Tory, loves her party, and she will be devastated at what has happened to it.
She chose to frame the election in the way that she did. She colluded with the right wing press to make it a patriots v saboteurs contest. She decided to paint the Europeans as the enemy and to accuse them of interfering in the electoral process. She chose to walk hand in hand with Trump. I can't feel sorry for her given that she essentially labelled people like me traitors. I don't think I have ever been happier at an election result. This beats 1997 by a distance. At least John Major was a decent man.
The tories are the old peoples party with nothing to offer the u35's - and little to offer the u45's.
Remind me, which party pledged to keep the Triple Lock, protect the Winter Fuel Allowance, and vehemently opposed a change to social care funding in order to protect the heirs of the well-off?
LOL at blaming millennials for creating chaos. There is no obligation nor duty to vote for the Conservative Party. They are not owed a majority. It's this kind of entitlement to govern from the Conservative Party which is precisely why they lost their majority in the first place. Some of this site have been so bitter towards my generation, it's one of the reasons why I'm enjoying this GE result.
Moreover, it's hardly as if the next Conservative government had they won a majority under May, would have actually addressed the concerns Millennials have anyway. The issue with the Conservative manifesto is that while it took things away from the baby boomers, it said very little in the way of helping JAMS and young people - that is one of the reasons why the manifesto was so unpopular with pretty much everyone. There was very little in there for 65+, the middle-aged, and young people to like.
I expect the next Labour government to be very left-wing economically and socially, in a way that'll make me miss Gordon Brown.
I don't think I'm going to enjoy it very much. I might sign-up to the anti-depressants Sean Fear is taking.
The next Labour government is likely to be at least somewhat limited in what it can do as it's unlikely Labour will win a comfortable majority. At most, I see Labour perhaps winning a small majority, but far more likely Labour will find itself in the position of being the largest party in a hung parliament. With moderate Labour MPs on the benches, Labour is not likely to be as left wing as you fear they will be.
This of course, presumes that the Conservatives do not learn from the current mess and make appropriate changes in response.
I think the Queens Speech should contain just one item:
Implement the 2016 Referendum to Leave the EU in consultation with parties in Parliament.
Get as many of the other parties as possible to agree to that one item (or at least abstain). Heads can bang but that's the business being taken care of.
Is it me, or are PMs who become mid Parliament the worst for their parties?
Theresa May - Nuff said
Gordon Brown - Again nuff said
Joihn Major - Ultimately saw the Tories reduced to a rump in 1997
Jim Callaghan - Should have held an election in the Autumn of 1978 when Labour were ahead in the polls, missed the boat, and helped usher in 18 years of Tory rule
Lord Home - Hospital pass
You'd probably have to say SuperMac was the lost mid term PM not to seriously screw up.
Think this judgment is harsh on Major. In the circumstances he was dealt he surely did better than "par". Obviously election night 1997 was an awful time to be a Tory - but of the candidates on offer, how many of them could have managed 1992?
I reckon a Heseltine or a Clarke would have gotten a similar result in 1992.
But yes I'm being harsh on Major.
I find it hard to believe the Tory party could have lined up foursquare behind Heseltine/Clarke... the splits may have been worse than Major faced and you could have ended up with a wipeout a few years earlier than 1997. Though perhaps I'm being harsh on Ken/Hezza.
Theresa May cannot and will not be allowed to fight another election. But there has to be an orderly transition if possible. The Commons maths is enough in her favour to allow that. But she will be being told she's on borrowed time and how she uses that will determine whether she's remembered as the worst PM ever or one of the worst PMs ever.
Although we know the good of the country is not a Tory priority, if she were ever to think about trying to govern in the national interest Mrs May might:
1. Keep as far away as possible from the swivel-eyed Tory right.
2. Stop pandering to the right wing press.
3. Apologise for her citizens of nowhere and saboteur sabre rattling.
4. Start talking about Europe as our friend, not our enemy.
5. Run a mile from Donald Trump.
6 Plead with David Cameron to come back as an MP and immediately take the Chiltern Hundreds?
Theresa could step down and Dave could contest the ensuing Maidenhead by-election. For everyone in Britain, seeing Dave stride up to the Downing Street podium would only be coupled with a feeling of blessed relief. After a bit of chillaxing with the DUP he'd have them eating out of his hands, and sunshine would rule the day once more.
He would still have Corbyn and a resurgent Farage led UKIP to contend with
He'd crush them; without breaking sweat.
Oh really? Just like he crushed Corbyn in the 2016 locals when Labour won the popular vote by 1% or Farage in the EU referendum you mean?
The only conservative I can see going twelve rounds with Killer Corb is Ruthless Ruth.
Now that would be box office!
Yes I like Davidson too but after her Boris would be my pick
Both Labour and Tories have accepted the referendum result and are commited to implementing it.
And neither of them has an electoral mandate to do so.
Remedial democracy, again.
For o much sleep.
BUT /EFTA?
As long as we leave I don't care. Must have said this 40 or 50 times now
Excets. Good to know.
W out. It really stifles sensible debate when people make comments like yours, theyre not even witty
The it.
.
".
.
s important to me is that we leave.
given that we were always sovereign while in the EU, what is it about the EU that you didn't actually like?
It is amazing that even though I am restraining myself beyond all known measure in my responses to you, you still keep digging and digging, it must have been going on for years now.
The debate that you stepped into, between ScottP and I, was based on his assertion that no party had a mandate for Brexit, so it might not happen.
As I have said, maybe two dozen times now, I am happy for the current govt, whoever it may be, we have had a couple since you started hammering on about it, to negotiate the deal however they like, hard/soft/EFTA/EEA whatever. These things aren't set in stone and can and will change over time. I would like to leave completely but I am not self important enough to think that matters or stupid enough to think that's how it works.
Why do you give a fuck what I think anyway?! I dont care what you do
I care Sam because it gives me an insight into the mind of a Brexiter and indeed it has done just that. Plus why should you get a free pass on your illogicality?
If you don't want to be challenged or engaged on what you write on an internet discussion board...don't write it.
But I have explained this to you time after time after time and you still dig dig dig. We have the same boring argument every month or so, provoked by you twisting things I said into something controversial, then me having to explain why I didn't say what you pretended I did. Always provoked by you, never by me.
I want us out of the EU completely, and if it has to be achieved gradually , that's fine
Is it me, or are PMs who become mid Parliament the worst for their parties?
Theresa May - Nuff said
Gordon Brown - Again nuff said
Joihn Major - Ultimately saw the Tories reduced to a rump in 1997
Jim Callaghan - Should have held an election in the Autumn of 1978 when Labour were ahead in the polls, missed the boat, and helped usher in 18 years of Tory rule
Lord Home - Hospital pass
You'd probably have to say SuperMac was the last mid term PM not to seriously screw up.
Con and the Lib Dems - Supply and confidence in exchange for a third referendum/referendum on the Brexit deal
Am amazed May rushed to the Palace and made her weird statement in Downing Street without even sounding out the LD's. The other one is the SNP. New powers for Scotland, a 2nd referendum, a couple of Cabinet posts, and, more importantly, a big majority. A weakened Tory Party and Nicola (the 2 big losers of this election), could claim victory!
"The SNP will never put the Tories into government." Nicola Sturgeon
Tim Farron has also ruled out any cooperation:
"If Theresa May approaches any Liberal Democrat and asks for our support to further the Conservative agenda, we will make it very clear: No deal is better than a bad deal."
I think there are three elements of Brexit which will be changed by Labour amendments to the Queens Speech. I believe these will have majority support in the House.
1. To unilaterally give residence rights to EU nationals and not use them as a bargaining chip.
2. To drop the target of less than 100,000 net immigrants that was only in the manifesto to attract UKIP voters.
3. To drop the idea that" no deal is better than a bad deal." This is only useful in a negotiation in the sense that a threat to shoot yourself in the head if you don't get your own way is useful.
The first is something I could agree to entirely. I said months ago we should have unilaterally done this. It would have shown we were honest brokers in this whole negotiation and it would have had the added very important bonus of being the right thing to do no matter what the other side do. I think it was deeply dumb not to do this.
The second doesn't concern me at all because I have no issue with immigration.
The last one is the deal breaker. If the EU knows we have removed the possibility of rejecting a bad deal there is absolutely no pressure on them to negotiate at all. In spite of what the Eurofanatic morons on here say, there will currently be a negotiation and the EU does want a reasonable result and do fear we would just walk away. If that threat is gone they will do nothing at all except try to impose a solution. It would be Cameron's non-negotiations all over again. It is a truly dumb idea.
To threaten no deal is MAD. Mutually Assured Destruction. If I don't get what I want I'll pull the pin. But it is not a real threat because the EU know we are rational agents and wouldn't carry out the threat. We'd cave at the last minute.
Unlike Gordon Brown, Jim Callaghan, and Theresa May John Major won a GE.
Theresa May won the 2017 general election, she just didn't win a majority.
Don't go all Corbynista on us and say Corbyn/Labour won the 2017 general election.
I don't believe Labour won this GE, LOL. Don't worry.
However I'd disagree that May 'won' this GE. She didn't get a majority - she actually lost Cameron's majority, so ergo she didn't win. I'd say that unless you get to 326 seats, you can't really claim to have 'won' a GE.
To be honest, I'm feeling sorry for Theresa May now.
This is probably a fatal sentiment for her. But I genuinely think her motives were good and she meant well.
She is a lifelong loyal Tory, loves her party, and she will be devastated at what has happened to it.
She chose to frame the election in the way that she did. She colluded with the right wing press to make it a patriots v saboteurs contest. She decided to paint the Europeans as the enemy and to accuse them of interfering in the electoral process. She chose to walk hand in hand with Trump. I can't feel sorry for her given that she essentially labelled people like me traitors. I don't think I have ever been happier at an election result. This beats 1997 by a distance. At least John Major was a decent man.
That's a very unfair, and slightly nasty, post.
I don't think she's even begun to label people who disagree with her as traitors, most of her parliamentary support and cabinet came from Remain. And her decency is absolutely beyond question.
Go away and have a lie down.
I think the last four days have gone to your head, you're not sure what to make of it, and despite the fact you failed to cast a ballot for anyone you want to celebrate regardless.
Is it me, or are PMs who become mid Parliament the worst for their parties?
Theresa May - Nuff said
Gordon Brown - Again nuff said
Joihn Major - Ultimately saw the Tories reduced to a rump in 1997
Jim Callaghan - Should have held an election in the Autumn of 1978 when Labour were ahead in the polls, missed the boat, and helped usher in 18 years of Tory rule
Lord Home - Hospital pass
You'd probably have to say SuperMac was the lost mid term PM not to seriously screw up.
Think this judgment is harsh on Major. In the circumstances he was dealt he surely did better than "par". Obviously election night 1997 was an awful time to be a Tory - but of the candidates on offer, how many of them could have managed 1992?
I reckon a Heseltine or a Clarke would have gotten a similar result in 1992.
But yes I'm being harsh on Major.
I find it hard to believe the Tory party could have lined up foursquare behind Heseltine/Clarke... the splits may have been worse than Major faced and you could have ended up with a wipeout a few years earlier than 1997. Though perhaps I'm being harsh on Ken/Hezza.
They would have done in the short term between Thatcher falling and the general election in 1991/1992.
The EU wasn't the issue as much of an issue then (I know Thatcher was toppled over it, but in reality it was to do with the poll tax)
Both Labour and Tories have accepted the referendum result and are commited to implementing it.
And neither of them has an electoral mandate to do so.
Remedial democracy, again.
For o much sleep.
BUT /EFTA?
As long as we leave I don't care. Must have said this 40 or 50 times now
Excets. Good to know.
W out. It really stifles sensible debate when people make comments like yours, theyre not even witty
The it.
I think isam's point is absolutely reasonable actually - for lots of people the priority is to ensure Brexit happens, but are largely indifferent about what form it takes. Moreover, they really do not want controversy about the form of Brexit to be the very thing that derails Brexit.
.
".
.
s important to me is that we leave.
Neither of the major political parties is trying to twist us out of leaving.
So although I really don't want to rehash those pre-Ref debates, given that EEA/EFTA would be fine, given that we were always sovereign while in the EU, what is it about the EU that you didn't actually like?
It is amazing that even though I am restraining myself beyond all known measure in my responses to you, you still keep digging and digging, it must have been going on for years now.
The debate that you stepped into, between ScottP and I, was based on his assertion that no party had a mandate for Brexit, so it might not happen.
As I have said, maybe two dozen times now, I am happy for the current govt, whoever it may be, we have had a couple since you started hammering on about it, to negotiate the deal however they like, hard/soft/EFTA/EEA whatever. These things aren't set in stone and can and will change over time. I would like to leave completely but I am not self important enough to think that matters or stupid enough to think that's how it works.
Why do you give a fuck what I think anyway?! I dont care what you do
Why respond then?
It's polite to respond and it gives the impression you dont have a response when you fail to.
What did you mean by "buying opportunity" when the Lib Dems were 10/1 in Stoke on Trent by the way?
I get that point. In principle. But as ever it is the devil in the details. It is an emotive "cry freedom" view that of course is perfectly legitimate. But it is a false premise. These are the people who voted Leave to reclaim sovereignty but, as has been confirmed by David "Arch Brexiter" Davis, we were always sovereign, it was just that "it didn't feel like it".
So when someone says "thank god we are out of the EU and yes I'd be happy with the EEA/EFTA" it is the height of illogicality and I think an interesting topic for debate.
There is nothing illogical about it at all. The scope and range of the influence of any of the EFTA institutions upon us is absolutely miniscule compared to the EU. No one is suggesting we should cut ourselves off from the world. What we are saying is that our interactions with our countries should be bound by strictly limited treaties from which we can withdraw if we chose, not by self perpetuating and self governing institutions which influence almost every aspects of our lives.
Only the most fanatical Europhiles like yourself fail to see the difference.
I wouldn't have me down as a fanatical Europhile. To the naked eye, EEA/EFTA is the same as the EU. You can bleat about the nuances of the EFTA Court vs the ECJ (and do you think there will be greater or less convergence between the two ahead?) and scweam and scweam that we don't understand, but, Richard, you are wrong and you know it.
We have always been sovereign, you want to sign us up to a convention which is substantially the same as the one you have just voted to leave, and all you can do is flail around wishing it wasn't so.
Of course I am not wrong. There is a long list of areas - actually everything outside of the specifics of the Single Market - that is not controlled by the EU if we move to EFTA.
If you think the EU is just the single market then you are even more ignorant than I thought.
Some of the areas not covered by the EEA
Agriculture Economic affairs Education External Trade Fisheries Foreign Policy Justice and Home Affairs Security Policy
There are loads more and of course we remove ourselves from the possibility of 'creep' that we currently see with the ECJ and the EU. No more self amending treaties or decisions from the ECJ based on Ever Closer Union.
EEA membership is whole magnitudes better for us than EU membership. Only you fanatics try and hide that because you are frightened people might accept it as a good result and so be happier about leaving the EU.
I wouldn't have me down as a fanatical Europhile. To the naked eye, EEA/EFTA is the same as the EU. You can bleat about the nuances of the EFTA Court vs the ECJ (and do you think there will be greater or less convergence between the two ahead?) and scweam and scweam that we don't understand, but, Richard, you are wrong and you know it.
We have always been sovereign, you want to sign us up to a convention which is substantially the same as the one you have just voted to leave, and all you can do is flail around wishing it wasn't so.
The two most obvious differences is that being in the EEA/EFTA means you are outside the Common Fisheries Policy and the Common Agricultural Policy. Those are definite plus points for being outside of the EU but inside the Single Market.
There are other similar things which the EU does that are not directly related to the Single Market that not being involved with might be considered a plus, depending on your point of view. Things like proposals for an EU Army
Given all the talk about abortion and the DUP, was wodnering are there any Labour MPs left who are opposed to abortion now the likes of Joe Benton, Jim Dobbin and Tom Clarke are no longer in Parliament ?
The idea that the DUP are going to insist on changing anything that happens around this or civil partnership on the mainland is utterly ridiculous.
I don't think it would happen either. Was just curious as to whether there was any remaining opposition to abortion within the PLP.
Just watched a video of Kwarteng giving an interview in C4, he's just so smooth and confident. It's the complete opposite of Theresa. No nervousness, he's clearly been well briefed and he is flexible enough to answer the questions being asked. He also says that we'd only leave the single market to stop free movement and he gets the point across that Labour have the same view, one of the only politicians on our side to make that point.
He deserves a shot at the top job, we need to have a full leadership election and I hope he gets serious backing for it from some of the old guard who's time has clearly passed.
I agree, I like him.
I first met him about 16 years ago when I was a Tory Council leader and he was a recent graduate. He impressed me then and I felt sure he was destined for great things.
But he's been in Parliament for 7 years now and hasn't really advanced. He's a year older than Blair when he became leader of Labour. Only 2 years younger than Cameron when he became PM.
I just have no idea why he isn't in the Cabinet - there must be a reason.... he's seriously posh of course...
Corbyn was a 66 year old backbencher 2 years ago!
A week ago we were all preparing for a Hard Brexit and Labour civil war.
To threaten no deal is MAD. Mutually Assured Destruction. If I don't get what I want I'll pull the pin. But it is not a real threat because the EU know we are rational agents and wouldn't carry out the threat. We'd cave at the last minute.
If it's Mutually Assured Destruction (and I agree with you on that), then it's not a real threat for them to use either. So why wouldn't they be the ones who'd 'cave at the last minute' and give us a reasonable deal?
Comments
It's like those project plans for major infrastructure projects with ambitious timelines for unlikely delivery that include as a milestone "A miracle happens here"
Brexit is a process that will take a decade to complete, unless you mean crash out of the EU, which doesn't chime with "decent"
https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/874250959194656772
I don't agree with this. She instigated an election, failed and expects to carry on as before. She cannot have a personality transplant and her communication skills are unlikely to suddenly improve. She has suspect judgement and is pretty weak when push comes to shove. Do we really want someone like this negotiating Brexit? She is only staying as PM because she wants to stay in office as long as she can muster enough support in the commons to do so. This is not like John Major after the ERM, he did at least win a majority where as she did not.
I think Theresa does have a strong sense of duty. Her chief problem is her confidence in public, and she struggles to quickly think on her feet or read other people. She can do hard thinking, but needs to take her time to do it.
Unfortunately this comes across as equivocation and Just Another Typical Politician.
Her problem is that she didn't really adapt her style in moving from the Home Office to No.10, and is perhaps unable to.
But I enjoyed your post. The irony is as rich as Croesus. But the cupboard of solutions is bare - Old Mother Hubbard is as skint as a baglady.
The second doesn't concern me at all because I have no issue with immigration.
The last one is the deal breaker. If the EU knows we have removed the possibility of rejecting a bad deal there is absolutely no pressure on them to negotiate at all. In spite of what the Eurofanatic morons on here say, there will currently be a negotiation and the EU does want a reasonable result and do fear we would just walk away. If that threat is gone they will do nothing at all except try to impose a solution. It would be Cameron's non-negotiations all over again. It is a truly dumb idea.
An eloquently argued thread.
But utterly wrong.
She chose to ask the question.
She got her answer.
She lost.
Time to go.
The idea of using the DUP to support a Westminster government started off as utterly insane and has gone downhill since then....
Presumably a central plank of her campaign would be to bring back hanging?
The woman is a prize idiot. What people see in her is beyond me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DrsVhzbLzU
Theresa May - Nuff said
Gordon Brown - Again nuff said
Joihn Major - Ultimately saw the Tories reduced to a rump in 1997
Jim Callaghan - Should have held an election in the Autumn of 1978 when Labour were ahead in the polls, missed the boat, and helped usher in 18 years of Tory rule
Lord Home - Hospital pass
You'd probably have to say SuperMac was the last mid term PM not to seriously screw up.
The Tories clearly want the full works regarding a contest for leader, this time. That takes months.
There has to be a QS, or an election (or let Corbyn have a go). That means there has to be a deal, most probably with the DUP. A deal, and a QS, needs a leader.
This is probably a fatal sentiment for her. But I genuinely think her motives were good and she meant well.
She is a lifelong loyal Tory, loves her party, and she will be devastated at what has happened to it.
Con and the Lib Dems - Supply and confidence in exchange for a third referendum/referendum on the Brexit deal
And you can go back further than that, Chamberlain after Baldwin. Arthur Balfour after Lord "Bobs You Uncle" Salisbury.
I bet if you went back ever further you'd still find the same pattern...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashfield_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
UKIP + Con + 66 votes from 2015.
Is there anywhere else in England and Wales the Tories went up 19.3% ?
That timescale seems sensible.
Moreover, it's hardly as if the next Conservative government had they won a majority under May, would have actually addressed the concerns Millennials have anyway. The issue with the Conservative manifesto is that while it took things away from the baby boomers, it said very little in the way of helping JAMS and young people - that is one of the reasons why the manifesto was so unpopular with pretty much everyone. There was very little in there for 65+, the middle-aged, and young people to like.
Edit: he did win an election, though.
Profoundly disagree re Major. A very good man who led with an understated dignity and class. History will judge him far more kindly than the electorate (and even then, said electorate gave him the most votes in history once).
But yes I'm being harsh on Major.
It's not just that they won't swear allegiance to the Queen, or that they want out of the UK, it's that they see the British Government as a foreign government and a hostile occupying power at that. It is therefore unthinkable that they would participate in the House of Commons as part of a British government.
Now that would be box office!
The Tories tried to play the game on labours turf - and lost.
The tories are the old peoples party with nothing to offer the u35's - and little to offer the u45's.
Conservatism is in crisis.
The very first thing May *should* have done on Friday was to put an offer on the table to Farron.
He'd have refused it, of course, but then Con-DUP would've been seen, at least by some, as a last resort that Farron forced the country into by not cooperating in the interest of the greater good.
May consistently misses these opportunities to make others look bad or take some of the rap.
I don't think I'm going to enjoy it very much. I might sign-up to the anti-depressants Sean Fear is taking.
Don't go all Corbynista on us and say Corbyn/Labour won the 2017 general election.
If you think the EU is just the single market then you are even more ignorant than I thought.
Some of the areas not covered by the EEA
Agriculture
Economic affairs
Education
External Trade
Fisheries
Foreign Policy
Justice and Home Affairs
Security Policy
There are loads more and of course we remove ourselves from the possibility of 'creep' that we currently see with the ECJ and the EU. No more self amending treaties or decisions from the ECJ based on Ever Closer Union.
EEA membership is whole magnitudes better for us than EU membership. Only you fanatics try and hide that because you are frightened people might accept it as a good result and so be happier about leaving the EU.
This of course, presumes that the Conservatives do not learn from the current mess and make appropriate changes in response.
Implement the 2016 Referendum to Leave the EU in consultation with parties in Parliament.
Get as many of the other parties as possible to agree to that one item (or at least abstain). Heads can bang but that's the business being taken care of.
I want us out of the EU completely, and if it has to be achieved gradually , that's fine
Tim Farron has also ruled out any cooperation:
"If Theresa May approaches any Liberal Democrat and asks for our support to further the Conservative agenda, we will make it very clear: No deal is better than a bad deal."
http://metro.co.uk/2017/06/09/tim-farron-refuses-to-form-coalition-with-tories-because-no-deal-is-better-than-a-bad-deal-6697881/
Now if Liam Fox was PM it might have some weight.
However I'd disagree that May 'won' this GE. She didn't get a majority - she actually lost Cameron's majority, so ergo she didn't win. I'd say that unless you get to 326 seats, you can't really claim to have 'won' a GE.
I don't think she's even begun to label people who disagree with her as traitors, most of her parliamentary support and cabinet came from Remain. And her decency is absolutely beyond question.
Go away and have a lie down.
I think the last four days have gone to your head, you're not sure what to make of it, and despite the fact you failed to cast a ballot for anyone you want to celebrate regardless.
The EU wasn't the issue as much of an issue then (I know Thatcher was toppled over it, but in reality it was to do with the poll tax)
What did you mean by "buying opportunity" when the Lib Dems were 10/1 in Stoke on Trent by the way?
https://twitter.com/RupertMyers/status/873846143159083008
There are other similar things which the EU does that are not directly related to the Single Market that not being involved with might be considered a plus, depending on your point of view. Things like proposals for an EU Army