The conservatives are in a strategically impossible position. Essentially, they are trying to bridge a gap between being the party of stability, security and continuity, and also the radical insurgency (Brexit). The two are inconsistent with one another, because achieving the latter effectively undermines the former, as it involves massive disruption. Yet they are promising people both. All Corbyn has to do is sit there talking in vague terms about a 'jobs first Brexit', and he will absolutely tear apart the conservative party. Every bit of bad economic data now will harm the conservative party and turn people against the 'destructive, hard brexit' being pursed by the tories. Labour doesn't even need to set out its own vision, to do so would just be ammunition to its opponents. The conservatives risk end up losing their reputation for economic competence, and will also eventually be seen as the mis sellers of Brexit. I have to say that this is the most astonishing turn of events politically in my lifetime. I get some satisfaction in seeing the right wing press being so profoundly undermined, but also genuinely fear a Corbyn led government.
Does anyone understand the DUP's Brexit position? They want a hard Brexit but no border controls, right? That's even more incoherent than the LibDem position.
The DUP, surprisingly, want Elton John Leave:
But I want Leave, just a different kind I want Leave, won't break me down Won't brick me up, won't fence me in I want a Leave, that don't mean a thing That's the Leave I want, I want Leave
The Land Value Tax is now on the agenda.Apparently it stems from Adam Smith.It offers a most potent vote-winner for Labour at the next election offering £hundreds off the council tax bill for the 95%.
And so it begins twitter.com/jameswharton/status/874248105763516419
Attention seeking snowflake.
Hardly. May's plans are a direct attack on the LGBT community within the Tory party. We all used to laugh at Tim and his Latvian homophobe attacks. Suddenly the homophobes are a lot closer to home.
I would be very surprised if there were any changes to those pieces of legislation.
How could the LGBT rights legislation change, even if the DUP demanded it (which they won't)? There are Tory backbenchers aplenty who wouldn't let it pass. Heck, a good portion of the cabinet would resign first.
The point isn't whether the DUP will use the Tories as their vassals to impose fundamentalist Protestantism on British rights laws. It's contamination caused by who you publicly get into bed with.
If you have a hung Parliament, you have to be prepared to cut deals with parties that disagree with you on some issues, in order get your business through. Jim Callaghan, and John Major cut deals with Unionists, Gordon Brown would have done, had the numbers made sense.
I quite agree. May has landed herself in Catch 22. But the problem is saying "any politician would have done it" doesn't detoxify it (or even justify it) among the younger (30s/40s, not saying that there is much fruit to be had among the 20-somethings since historically the Tories have got by without them), socially liberal voters that the Tories absolutely desperately need to win over.
Yes I think since NI switched over from SDLP-UUP to SF-DUP, deals with NI parties should've been taken right off the table. It's naive to think that because these parties are able to function as apparently normal parties in the NI setting, they are just like GB parties. Oh no.
So long as Northern Ireland sends MPs to Westminster, it's MPs are entitled to play their part in the government of the UK.
I wonder how many Tories would feel the same if the situation were slightly different and the parties concerned were Labour and Sinn Fein. I don't think you need much imagination to hear the cries of horror.
The Land Value Tax is now on the agenda.Apparently it stems from Adam Smith.It offers a most potent vote-winner for Labour at the next election offering £hundreds off the council tax bill for the 95%.
The trouble is it probably wouldn't. If you rent property it would just be passed on to you in your rent.
And so it begins twitter.com/jameswharton/status/874248105763516419
Attention seeking snowflake.
Hardly. May's plans are a direct attack on the LGBT community within the Tory party. We all used to laugh at Tim and his Latvian homophobe attacks. Suddenly the homophobes are a lot closer to home.
I would be very surprised if there were any changes to those pieces of legislation.
How could the LGBT rights legislation change, even if the DUP demanded it (which they won't)? There are Tory backbenchers aplenty who wouldn't let it pass. Heck, a good portion of the cabinet would resign first.
The point isn't whether the DUP will use the Tories as their vassals to impose fundamentalist Protestantism on British rights laws. It's contamination caused by who you publicly get into bed with.
If you have a hung Parliament, you have to be prepared to cut deals with parties that disagree with you on some issues, in order get your business through. Jim Callaghan, and John Major cut deals with Unionists, Gordon Brown would have done, had the numbers made sense.
I quite agree. May has landed herself in Catch 22. But the problem is saying "any politician would have done it" doesn't detoxify it (or even justify it) among the younger (30s/40s, not saying that there is much fruit to be had among the 20-somethings since historically the Tories have got by without them), socially liberal voters that the Tories absolutely desperately need to win over.
Yes I think since NI switched over from SDLP-UUP to SF-DUP, deals with NI parties should've been taken right off the table. It's naive to think that because these parties are able to function as apparently normal parties in the NI setting, they are just like GB parties. Oh no.
So long as Northern Ireland sends MPs to Westminster, it's MPs are entitled to play their part in the government of the UK.
I wonder how many Tories would feel the same if the situation were slightly different and the parties concerned were Labour and Sinn Fein. I don't think you need much imagination to hear the cries of horror.
... I have to say that this is the most astonishing turn of events politically in my lifetime. I get some satisfaction in seeing the right wing press being so profoundly undermined, but also genuinely fear a Corbyn led government.
I wonder how many Tories would feel the same if the situation were slightly different and the parties concerned were Labour and Sinn Fein. I don't think you need much imagination to hear the cries of horror.
And so it begins twitter.com/jameswharton/status/874248105763516419
Attention seeking snowflake.
Hardly. May's plans are a direct attack on the LGBT community within the Tory party. We all used to laugh at Tim and his Latvian homophobe attacks. Suddenly the homophobes are a lot closer to home.
I would be very surprised if there were any changes to those pieces of legislation.
How could the LGBT rights legislation change, even if the DUP demanded it (which they won't)? There are Tory backbenchers aplenty who wouldn't let it pass. Heck, a good portion of the cabinet would resign first.
The point isn't whether the DUP will use the Tories as their vassals to impose fundamentalist Protestantism on British rights laws. It's contamination caused by who you publicly get into bed with.
If you have a hung Parliament, you have to be prepared to cut deals with parties that disagree with you on some issues, in order get your business through. Jim Callaghan, and John Major cut deals with Unionists, Gordon Brown would have done, had the numbers made sense.
I quite agree. May has landed herself in Catch 22. But the problem is saying "any politician would have done it" doesn't detoxify it (or even justify it) among the younger (30s/40s, not saying that there is much fruit to be had among the 20-somethings since historically the Tories have got by without them), socially liberal voters that the Tories absolutely desperately need to win over.
Yes I think since NI switched over from SDLP-UUP to SF-DUP, deals with NI parties should've been taken right off the table. It's naive to think that because these parties are able to function as apparently normal parties in the NI setting, they are just like GB parties. Oh no.
So long as Northern Ireland sends MPs to Westminster, it's MPs are entitled to play their part in the government of the UK.
I wonder how many Tories would feel the same if the situation were slightly different and the parties concerned were Labour and Sinn Fein. I don't think you need much imagination to hear the cries of horror.
Sinn Fein choose to abstain.
They do but I was simply pointing out that the outcry from Tories would be deafening. Many view the DUP as little better and since they don't abstain as a more immediate threat.
I wonder how many Tories would feel the same if the situation were slightly different and the parties concerned were Labour and Sinn Fein. I don't think you need much imagination to hear the cries of horror.
So what do you suggest instead?
I'd run a minority government.
The DUP deal is short term gain for long term pain.
Does anyone understand the DUP's Brexit position? They want a hard Brexit but no border controls, right? That's even more incoherent than the LibDem position.
The DUP supported Brexit safe in the knowledge they could wave their flags and act all sad when they lost.
And so it begins twitter.com/jameswharton/status/874248105763516419
Attention seeking snowflake.
Hardly. May's plans are a direct attack on the LGBT community within the Tory party. We all used to laugh at Tim and his Latvian homophobe attacks. Suddenly the homophobes are a lot closer to home.
I would be very surprised if there were any changes to those pieces of legislation.
.
The point isn't whether the DUP will use the Tories as their vassals to impose fundamentalist Protestantism on British rights laws. It's contamination caused by who you publicly get into bed with.
If you have a hung Parliament, you have to be prepared to cut deals with parties that disagree with you on some issues, in order get your business through. Jim Callaghan, and John Major cut deals with Unionists, Gordon Brown would have done, had the numbers made sense.
I quite agree. May has landed herself in Catch 22. But the problem is saying "any politician would have done it" doesn't detoxify it (or even justify it) among the younger (30s/40s, not saying that there is much fruit to be had among the 20-somethings since historically the Tories have got by without them), socially liberal voters that the Tories absolutely desperately need to win over.
Yes I think since NI switched over from SDLP-UUP to SF-DUP, deals with NI parties should've been taken right off the table. It's naive to think that because these parties are able to function as apparently normal parties in the NI setting, they are just like GB parties. Oh no.
So long as Northern Ireland sends MPs to Westminster, it's MPs are entitled to play their part in the government of the UK.
I wonder how many Tories would feel the same if the situation were slightly different and the parties concerned were Labour and Sinn Fein. I don't think you need much imagination to hear the cries of horror.
Sinn Fein choose to abstain.
They do but I was simply pointing out that the outcry from Tories would be deafening. Many view the DUP as little better and since they don't abstain as a more immediate threat.
I wonder how many Tories would feel the same if the situation were slightly different and the parties concerned were Labour and Sinn Fein. I don't think you need much imagination to hear the cries of horror.
So what do you suggest instead?
I think there is little alternative but for May to resign and her successor call another election. I understand all the arguments about how disruptive this would be but I don't see the planned arrangements as stable and we are simply delaying the inevitable.
I wonder how many Tories would feel the same if the situation were slightly different and the parties concerned were Labour and Sinn Fein. I don't think you need much imagination to hear the cries of horror.
So what do you suggest instead?
I'd run a minority government.
The DUP deal is short term gain for long term pain.
Off topic. Regarding Ruth Davidson: I think she is massively overrated. She has benefitted massively from being in the position of an insurgent. That is the key to her popularity. The tories in England by contrast have been running a government for 7 years.
Is it me, or are PMs who become mid Parliament the worst for their parties?
Theresa May - Nuff said
Gordon Brown - Again nuff said
Joihn Major - Ultimately saw the Tories reduced to a rump in 1997
Jim Callaghan - Should have held an election in the Autumn of 1978 when Labour were ahead in the polls, missed the boat, and helped usher in 18 years of Tory rule
Lord Home - Hospital pass
You'd probably have to say SuperMac was the last mid term PM not to seriously screw up.
Con and the Lib Dems - Supply and confidence in exchange for a third referendum/referendum on the Brexit deal
Am amazed May rushed to the Palace and made her weird statement in Downing Street without even sounding out the LD's. The other one is the SNP. New powers for Scotland, a 2nd referendum, a couple of Cabinet posts, and, more importantly, a big majority. A weakened Tory Party and Nicola (the 2 big losers of this election), could claim victory!
"The SNP will never put the Tories into government." Nicola Sturgeon
Tim Farron has also ruled out any cooperation:
"If Theresa May approaches any Liberal Democrat and asks for our support to further the Conservative agenda, we will make it very clear: No deal is better than a bad deal."
Was something of a tiongue-in-cheek suggestion! However, TM did not have to paint herself into a corner with her statement. She effectively made it a deal with the DUP or nowt. She gave the Ulstermeen the whip hand!
I wonder how many Tories would feel the same if the situation were slightly different and the parties concerned were Labour and Sinn Fein. I don't think you need much imagination to hear the cries of horror.
So what do you suggest instead?
I'd run a minority government.
The DUP deal is short term gain for long term pain.
Isn't that what is happening? I thought that these talks are just about ensuring they don't vote down the QS.
@TSE - should we ban trade in all products because some idiots misuse them?
The inland ivory trade ban was a stupid idea promoted by those who don't understand culture, history, or the antiques trade.
This is a very reasonable point. But the problem is few people see into this world, and so the idea of anything made of ivory - even a hundred years ago - has passed beyond the realm of social acceptability for large parts of the population.
Yup - absolutely fine, I understand that. No-one is being forced to buy ivory at the moment.
But the quasi-puritanical lust amongst antis to grind existing works of art into dust is literally philistinism. It should not have been pandered to in the first place.
Off topic. Regarding Ruth Davidson: I think she is massively overrated. She has benefitted massively from being in the position of an insurgent. That is the key to her popularity. The tories in England by contrast have been running a government for 7 years.
I have been impressed by her and the work she has done in Scotland, but I would like to see more of her before touting her as a future leader. Ideally she comes down to Westminster and has a minister role to test her before running for the leadership.
I wonder how many Tories would feel the same if the situation were slightly different and the parties concerned were Labour and Sinn Fein. I don't think you need much imagination to hear the cries of horror.
So what do you suggest instead?
I'd run a minority government.
The DUP deal is short term gain for long term pain.
It is going to be a minority government.
Do you think given the rather err particular position the SNP some of them might go about getting stuck on a bus somewhere if there is no DUP-Con deal ?
I think there is little alternative but for May to resign and her successor call another election. I understand all the arguments about how disruptive this would be but I don't see the planned arrangements as stable and we are simply delaying the inevitable.
Thanks,
Well, you might be right. However, the Article 50 clock is ticking, which is a complicating factor.
Cheer up, we might end up with PR, and then we'd regularly have governments held to ransom by extremist parties.
I've never regarded the Conservatives as an extremist party ....
All Cameron's hard work in changing the nasty party has been undone.The Tories are now the same terrorist sympathising coalition of chaos they accused Labour of being.Hugging huskies-gone- with climate change deniers in Gove and the DUP:womens rights-gone:gay rights-gone.All those Tories who believed in LGBT rights,womens rights and climate change gone too.The Tories are re-toxified and their socially liberal vote is collapsing.Lifting the ban on the ivory trade and bringing back foxhunting hardly makes the Tories look nice either ,does it?
I wonder how many Tories would feel the same if the situation were slightly different and the parties concerned were Labour and Sinn Fein. I don't think you need much imagination to hear the cries of horror.
So what do you suggest instead?
I think there is little alternative but for May to resign and her successor call another election. I understand all the arguments about how disruptive this would be but I don't see the planned arrangements as stable and we are simply delaying the inevitable.
IMHO, if the Conservatives can pass a QS, then they have a duty to govern.
Off topic. Regarding Ruth Davidson: I think she is massively overrated. She has benefitted massively from being in the position of an insurgent. That is the key to her popularity. The tories in England by contrast have been running a government for 7 years.
At the beginning of the election campaign when the Conservatives across GB were riding high, there was a high degree of scepticism about whether the Scottish Conservatives could bag six seats. After a car crash election campaign across the UK, the Scottish Conservatives got 13 MPs, more than any year since 1983. You have to give their leader a lot of credit for what in the circumstances was a truly spectacular performance.
I wonder how many Tories would feel the same if the situation were slightly different and the parties concerned were Labour and Sinn Fein. I don't think you need much imagination to hear the cries of horror.
So what do you suggest instead?
I'd run a minority government.
The DUP deal is short term gain for long term pain.
Isn't that what is happening? I thought that these talks are just about ensuring they don't vote down the QS.
I think there is little alternative but for May to resign and her successor call another election. I understand all the arguments about how disruptive this would be but I don't see the planned arrangements as stable and we are simply delaying the inevitable.
Thanks,
Well, you might be right. However, the Article 50 clock is ticking, which is a complicating factor.
Agreed. I don't think there are any easy solutions here and I have to admit my view is driven by a long term quite intense dislike of May which this election has only helped to reinforce. So I am perhaps not the most neutral of observers on this.
Off topic. Regarding Ruth Davidson: I think she is massively overrated. She has benefitted massively from being in the position of an insurgent. That is the key to her popularity. The tories in England by contrast have been running a government for 7 years.
I have been impressed by her and the work she has done in Scotland, but I would like to see more of her before touting her as a future leader. Ideally she comes down to Westminster and has a minister role to test her before running for the leadership.
She is a formidable media performer and debater, in that sense direct opposite to TM. Saw bit of the Scottish referendum debates where she more than matched Sturgeon. Management / policy skills etc. are unknown but current standard across all parties is bloody low!
I think there is little alternative but for May to resign and her successor call another election. I understand all the arguments about how disruptive this would be but I don't see the planned arrangements as stable and we are simply delaying the inevitable.
Thanks,
Well, you might be right. However, the Article 50 clock is ticking, which is a complicating factor.
Every now and again it hits me just how reckless May was and the cosmic scale of her mistake. The timing of this election was negligent in the extreme.
Hey CR. Just a quick note to say 'hello' and that i hope that you're recovering from what must have been the most almighty shock / kick in the unmentionables. It's like 92 and 15 with knobs on.
As ever you worked your arse off for May. Hard working members like you, Richard and JohnO (amongst others) often bear the brunt of forces beyond their control.
I appreciated your reports from Southampton and hope you get to influence the shape of the Tory party that emerges from the ashes of this defeat.
Hey CR. Just a quick note to say 'hello' and that i hope that you're recovering from what must have been the most almighty shock / kick in the unmentionables. It's like 92 and 15 with knobs on.
As ever you worked your arse off for May. Hard working members like you, Richard and JohnO (amongst others) often bear the brunt of forces beyond their control.
I appreciated your reports from Southampton and hope you get to influence the shape of the Tory party that emerges from the ashes of this defeat.
Thanks, Jonathan. That's a very generous and kind post.
I did a little bit, but nothing like how Royal Blue, Mortimer, Topping and David Herdson slaved.
I will need time to fully digest and understand the results, which deeply worry me.
Hardly. May's plans are a direct attack on the LGBT community within the Tory party. We all used to laugh at Tim and his Latvian homophobe attacks. Suddenly the homophobes are a lot closer to home.
Are they ? Evidence ?
The DUP are not going to dictate a single comma of legislation on this topic that impacts anyone either inside or outside Ulster.
Do you think that under the same circumstances the Conservatives should or would do the same deal with the BNP if they had the seats? For many people this is the equivalent.
Cheer up, we might end up with PR, and then we'd regularly have governments held to ransom by extremist parties.
I've never regarded the Conservatives as an extremist party ....
All Cameron's hard work in changing the nasty party has been undone.The Tories are now the same terrorist sympathising coalition of chaos they accused Labour of being.Hugging huskies-gone- with climate change deniers in Gove and the DUP:womens rights-gone:gay rights-gone.All those Tories who believed in LGBT rights,womens rights and climate change gone too.The Tories are re-toxified and their socially liberal vote is collapsing.Lifting the ban on the ivory trade and bringing back foxhunting hardly makes the Tories look nice either ,does it?
Cheer up, we might end up with PR, and then we'd regularly have governments held to ransom by extremist parties.
I've never regarded the Conservatives as an extremist party ....
All Cameron's hard work in changing the nasty party has been undone.The Tories are now the same terrorist sympathising coalition of chaos they accused Labour of being.Hugging huskies-gone- with climate change deniers in Gove and the DUP:womens rights-gone:gay rights-gone.All those Tories who believed in LGBT rights,womens rights and climate change gone too.The Tories are re-toxified and their socially liberal vote is collapsing.Lifting the ban on the ivory trade and bringing back foxhunting hardly makes the Tories look nice either ,does it?
Let's see what actually changes in government. I suspect not much.
I wonder how many Tories would feel the same if the situation were slightly different and the parties concerned were Labour and Sinn Fein. I don't think you need much imagination to hear the cries of horror.
So what do you suggest instead?
I'd run a minority government.
The DUP deal is short term gain for long term pain.
It is going to be a minority government.
Do you think given the rather err particular position the SNP some of them might go about getting stuck on a bus somewhere if there is no DUP-Con deal ?
Can Corbyn count on all his MPs to back his party at the QS? I wonder if there are still some willing to vote against Corbyn?
Cheer up, we might end up with PR, and then we'd regularly have governments held to ransom by extremist parties.
I've never regarded the Conservatives as an extremist party ....
All Cameron's hard work in changing the nasty party has been undone.The Tories are now the same terrorist sympathising coalition of chaos they accused Labour of being.Hugging huskies-gone- with climate change deniers in Gove and the DUP:womens rights-gone:gay rights-gone.All those Tories who believed in LGBT rights,womens rights and climate change gone too.The Tories are re-toxified and their socially liberal vote is collapsing.Lifting the ban on the ivory trade and bringing back foxhunting hardly makes the Tories look nice either ,does it?
Am trying to work out if your ignorance is higher than your hyperbole.
I think there is little alternative but for May to resign and her successor call another election. I understand all the arguments about how disruptive this would be but I don't see the planned arrangements as stable and we are simply delaying the inevitable.
Thanks,
Well, you might be right. However, the Article 50 clock is ticking, which is a complicating factor.
I'm not sure I can take another day of this. Yet alone two years.
It's embarrassing, depressing, emasculating and humiliating.
I wonder how many Tories would feel the same if the situation were slightly different and the parties concerned were Labour and Sinn Fein. I don't think you need much imagination to hear the cries of horror.
So what do you suggest instead?
I'd run a minority government.
The DUP deal is short term gain for long term pain.
It is going to be a minority government.
Do you think given the rather err particular position the SNP some of them might go about getting stuck on a bus somewhere if there is no DUP-Con deal ?
Can Corbyn count on all his MPs to back his party at the QS? I wonder if there are still some willing to vote against Corbyn?
I'd think so - Woodcock has said he wouldn't support Corbyn as PM, not that he would not oppose May.
Just watched a video of Kwarteng giving an interview in C4, he's just so smooth and confident. It's the complete opposite of Theresa. No nervousness, he's clearly been well briefed and he is flexible enough to answer the questions being asked. He also says that we'd only leave the single market to stop free movement and he gets the point across that Labour have the same view, one of the only politicians on our side to make that point.
He deserves a shot at the top job, we need to have a full leadership election and I hope he gets serious backing for it from some of the old guard who's time has clearly passed.
I agree, I like him.
Getting Kwarteng into a senior Ministerial role in short order would help enormously.
And Johnny Mercer and Rory Stewart. Penny Mordant needs a leg up too. We need to get to know these new Scottish Tories. And Kevin Foster needs to be told to take all Tory MPs and candidates on a crash-course on how to win over your constituents.
And get Gove to say that under no circumstances will the Govt. EVER give time for a Bill on fox-hunting. And if there is a Private Members Bill introduced, then any member of the Cabinet who wants to vote in favour can hand in their resignation.
Shit like that. They have got time to fix things. They need to use it WISELY.
And the ivory ban, I hear that came up a lot, coupled with fox hunting it made the Tories look like the nasty party.
Misrepresentation (not by you) of course. It was allowing self-certification by antique dealers that ivory pieces were pre-1947 and hence could be sold
Which might be a perfectly reasonable relatively minor amendment to make - but that is absolutely no excuse for actually including it in a manifesto as a hostage to fortune.
Every now and again it hits me just how reckless May was and the cosmic scale of her mistake. The timing of this election was negligent in the extreme.
Yes. Even more remarkable when we thought we were getting a safe pair of hands to steady the ship after the EU referendum.
May should have brought Gove back in as Justice Secretary. Since she has brought him back anyway in the face of inevitable (unfounded) criticism it should at least have been to a job where he was widely praised for his work by all sides of the House and importantly by the prison service itself.
I wonder how many Tories would feel the same if the situation were slightly different and the parties concerned were Labour and Sinn Fein. I don't think you need much imagination to hear the cries of horror.
So what do you suggest instead?
. I'd run a minority government.
The DUP deal is short term gain for long term pain.
I agree. A minority government with just one item on its agenda: Brexit. It might have been different if Mrs May hadn't so irresponsibly triggered Article 50 before calling an election. It means the government dancing to Labour's tune on Brexit but getting blamed by them for anything that might go wrong. It's the only option that semi-works given the numbers and the timetable. The Conservatives need Labour to at least abstain to be confident of getting their Brexit outcomes agreed.
I think there is little alternative but for May to resign and her successor call another election. I understand all the arguments about how disruptive this would be but I don't see the planned arrangements as stable and we are simply delaying the inevitable.
Thanks,
Well, you might be right. However, the Article 50 clock is ticking, which is a complicating factor.
I'm not sure I can take another day of this. Yet alone two years.
It's embarrassing, depressing, emasculating and humiliating.
I do feel for you, honestly.
But equally honestly, I'm loving every last minute of this.
Cheer up, we might end up with PR, and then we'd regularly have governments held to ransom by extremist parties.
I've never regarded the Conservatives as an extremist party ....
All Cameron's hard work in changing the nasty party has been undone.The Tories are now the same terrorist sympathising coalition of chaos they accused Labour of being.Hugging huskies-gone- with climate change deniers in Gove and the DUP:womens rights-gone:gay rights-gone.All those Tories who believed in LGBT rights,womens rights and climate change gone too.The Tories are re-toxified and their socially liberal vote is collapsing.Lifting the ban on the ivory trade and bringing back foxhunting hardly makes the Tories look nice either ,does it?
Every now and again it hits me just how reckless May was and the cosmic scale of her mistake. The timing of this election was negligent in the extreme.
Yes. Even more remarkable when we thought we were getting a safe pair of hands to steady the ship after the EU referendum.
If this goes badly, really badly, you could end up with a Parliamentary Conservative Party smaller than the current Parliamentary Liberal Party.
I cannot see them repealing gay marriage or civil partnerships or increasing the age of consent for homosexual activity or any legal activity for that matter. I don't see the problem, people are getting worked into a frenzy about nothing.
The blank cheque that May sought for Brexit was not a good thing. She now has to look beyond the narrow interests of one part of the Tory party.
She now has no power to make concessions to get a deal. She can be brought down on multiple fronts, and is beholden to all sorts of vested interests. She can't ignore the narrow interests of one part of the Tory party, and she can't ignore the even narrower interests of the DUP. The EU27 won't know if she'll be there to conclude any deal, or be able to get it through parliament. And there's no way out of this mess.
It's an unmitigated disaster for the country. There's no getting away from this. It's likely to turn out to be the most catastrophic election result of modern times.
Well there IS a way out of this mess. But it would require putting the interests of the country ahead of the interests of the Conservative Party. Something they seem adverse to in recent times.
If May were to go back to the Palace and tell Lizzie that the country needs a government that commands either a majority or a firm coalition and that the only way this might be achieved is to have another election, then there is a way out of the mess that May is responsible for.
Who knows, if they got their act together and put forward a half decent campaign and adjusted their manifesto, the Tories might even come out of it with a majority. Failing that, at least we could be left with a Labour government that is not fettered by a minor Party form Northern Ireland.
And for the avoidance of doubt, I am neither a Labour or Corbyn supporter.
There's no guarantee that the result would be significantly different, it might work if May resigned and the Tories were led by someone different, maybe Hammond?
It is one of these situations when, if things are not working, then why not try something else? It may not work either but what we have now is not looking good.
If changing to Hammond would work then I would say "Do it" but it does not solve the issue of being in a minority govt.
It would not surprise me if we had three elections in quick succession: the one we just had, the next one putting Corbyn in as a minority govt and then another one to put a govt in with a proper majority.
Nothing can surprise me now!
It rather looks like a minority labour government is a nailed on certainty. So, I fear, is a brutal right wing conservative majority government further on down the road.
Every now and again it hits me just how reckless May was and the cosmic scale of her mistake. The timing of this election was negligent in the extreme.
Yes. Even more remarkable when we thought we were getting a safe pair of hands to steady the ship after the EU referendum.
If this goes badly, really badly, you could end up with a Parliamentary Conservative Party smaller than the current Parliamentary Liberal Party.
The blank cheque that May sought for Brexit was not a good thing. She now has to look beyond the narrow interests of one part of the Tory party.
She now has no power to make concessions to get a deal. She can be brought down on multiple fronts, and is beholden to all sorts of vested interests. She can't ignore the narrow interests of one part of the Tory party, and she can't ignore the even narrower interests of the DUP. The EU27 won't know if she'll be there to conclude any deal, or be able to get it through parliament. And there's no way out of this mess.
It's an unmitigated disaster for the country. There's no getting away from this. It's likely to turn out to be the most catastrophic election result of modern times.
Well there IS a way out of this mess. But it would require putting the interests of the country ahead of the interests of the Conservative Party. Something they seem adverse to in recent times.
If May were to go back to the Palace and tell Lizzie that the country needs a government that commands either a majority or a firm coalition and that the only way this might be achieved is to have another election, then there is a way out of the mess that May is responsible for.
Who knows, if they got their act together and put forward a half decent campaign and adjusted their manifesto, the Tories might even come out of it with a majority. Failing that, at least we could be left with a Labour government that is not fettered by a minor Party form Northern Ireland.
And for the avoidance of doubt, I am neither a Labour or Corbyn supporter.
There's no guarantee that the result would be significantly different, it might work if May resigned and the Tories were led by someone different, maybe Hammond?
It is one of these situations when, if things are not working, then why not try something else? It may not work either but what we have now is not looking good.
If changing to Hammond would work then I would say "Do it" but it does not solve the issue of being in a minority govt.
It would not surprise me if we had three elections in quick succession: the one we just had, the next one putting Corbyn in as a minority govt and then another one to put a govt in with a proper majority.
It rather looks like a minority labour government is a nailed on certainty.
May should have brought Gove back in as Justice Secretary. Since she has brought him back anyway in the face of inevitable (unfounded) criticism it should at least have been to a job where he was widely praised for his work by all sides of the House and importantly by the prison service itself.
Too senior a position I suspect. Plus - Defra has to do some serious thinking and reimagining of what Brexit means. Arguably a bigger change for them than any other department.
Michael Gove - like him or loathe him - is a dreamer and this kind of challenge gives him a chance to shine and invest his energy in the May project.
I'd go minority government. Cut VAT in half for a three month period to boost the economy. Put together a plan to build 1million new homes. Leave corporation tax untouched. Come up with 2 or 3 seriously business friendly policies. Start negotiating Brexit in a grown-up, open manner. And put on really really really disciplined front through the summer. Then go back to the country.
The opposition will cry foul but political opportunism is perfectly justifiable given the current clusterf*ck. Just imagine what a summer of uncertainty followed by a sharp drop in business confidence and a nasty recession would do... There'd be blood on the Tory carpets.
... and then a Corbyn govt would be a serious possibility.
FWIW I would tell the DUP to go fuck themselves and dare them to vote down a QS and let Corbyn in.
That would almost certainly see them through the QS, as there are bound to be abstentions from somewhere for fear or Corbyn or an election.
The Tories will be worried about the damage they could take from being unable to manage parliament thereafter. That's why they need a deal. Trouble is, until the QS is through, they also need a leader. Because any deal needs a credible Tory leader who is likely to stick around, any deal done now is unlikely to be seen as lasting and therefore might as well be short term.
Getting the QS through and then resigning immediately afterwards as Tory leader, whilst remaining caretaker PM, is a viable option for May. Presumably the QS wont contain much other than routine business and Brexit, anyway. The new leader then arrives at the end of the summer and endeavours to reach a longer term understanding with the DUP.
Off topic. Regarding Ruth Davidson: I think she is massively overrated. She has benefitted massively from being in the position of an insurgent. That is the key to her popularity. The tories in England by contrast have been running a government for 7 years.
At the beginning of the election campaign when the Conservatives across GB were riding high, there was a high degree of scepticism about whether the Scottish Conservatives could bag six seats. After a car crash election campaign across the UK, the Scottish Conservatives got 13 MPs, more than any year since 1983. You have to give their leader a lot of credit for what in the circumstances was a truly spectacular performance.
Indeed - I just think it is a massive jump to start talking about her as the saviour of the conservatIve party. It is a unique situation in Scotland.
Cheer up, we might end up with PR, and then we'd regularly have governments held to ransom by extremist parties.
I've never regarded the Conservatives as an extremist party ....
All Cameron's hard work in changing the nasty party has been undone.The Tories are now the same terrorist sympathising coalition of chaos they accused Labour of being.Hugging huskies-gone- with climate change deniers in Gove and the DUP:womens rights-gone:gay rights-gone.All those Tories who believed in LGBT rights,womens rights and climate change gone too.The Tories are re-toxified and their socially liberal vote is collapsing.Lifting the ban on the ivory trade and bringing back foxhunting hardly makes the Tories look nice either ,does it?
Every now and again it hits me just how reckless May was and the cosmic scale of her mistake. The timing of this election was negligent in the extreme.
Yes. Even more remarkable when we thought we were getting a safe pair of hands to steady the ship after the EU referendum.
If this goes badly, really badly, you could end up with a Parliamentary Conservative Party smaller than the current Parliamentary Liberal Party.
I know the DUP are still in the political stone age, but wouldn't a cute way of gtting leverage on the government be for Arlene to ask May to 'have a look at' funding for the more deprived regions of the UK *cough* which may well suffer as a result of Brexit ?
I cannot see them repealing gay marriage or civil partnerships or increasing the age of consent for homosexual activity or any legal activity for that matter. I don't see the problem, people are getting worked into a frenzy about nothing.
Are you LGBT yourself? If not then you shouldn't presume on the behalf of others about how to feel about this deal.
Every now and again it hits me just how reckless May was and the cosmic scale of her mistake. The timing of this election was negligent in the extreme.
Yes. Even more remarkable when we thought we were getting a safe pair of hands to steady the ship after the EU referendum.
If this goes badly, really badly, you could end up with a Parliamentary Conservative Party smaller than the current Parliamentary Liberal Party.
Seriously.
I think May should go in the near future. However, I think your assertion that the Tories could end up as 12 seats is a bit silly. Whoever the Tory leader might be they do have an advantage in solidifying their vote in Corbyn. He obviously motivates Labour voters but it is likely he repels Tory ones to the ballot box as well. I think the electorate has done its classic "don't know" answer at the election, just like in 1974 when asked a similar question. If the Tories were up against someone like Blair, then they should worry. I don't see Corbyn increasing his vote much further, if there was another election and the Tories lost and Labour won it, I think it would be down to Tory stay at home voters. But as I say I don't think Corbyn can grow his vote much more.
May should have brought Gove back in as Justice Secretary. Since she has brought him back anyway in the face of inevitable (unfounded) criticism it should at least have been to a job where he was widely praised for his work by all sides of the House and importantly by the prison service itself.
The blank cheque that May sought for Brexit was not a good thing. She now has to look beyond the narrow interests of one part of the Tory party.
Ssnip It's an unmitigated disaster for the country. There's no getting away from this. It's likely to turn out to be the most catastrophic election result of modern times.
Well there IS a way out of this mess. But it would require putting the interests of the country ahead of the interests of the Conservative Party. Something they seem adverse to in recent times.
If May were to go back to the Palace and tell Lizzie that the country needs a government that commands either a majority or a firm coalition and that the only way this might be achieved is to have another election, then there is a way out of the mess that May is responsible for.
Who knows, if they got their act together and put forward a half decent campaign and adjusted their manifesto, the Tories might even come out of it with a majority. Failing that, at least we could be left with a Labour government that is not fettered by a minor Party form Northern Ireland.
And for the avoidance of doubt, I am neither a Labour or Corbyn supporter.
There's no guarantee that the result would be significantly different, it might work if May resigned and the Tories were led by someone different, maybe Hammond?
It is one of these situations when, if things are not working, then why not try something else? It may not work either but what we have now is not looking good.
If changing to Hammond would work then I would say "Do it" but it does not solve the issue of being in a minority govt.
It would not surprise me if we had three elections in quick succession: the one we just had, the next one putting Corbyn in as a minority govt and then another one to put a govt in with a proper majority.
It rather looks like a minority labour government is a nailed on certainty.
I think we've reached peak nonsense now.
Labour are 6% ahead in the polls, the tories are in meltdown, no majority and facing multiple intractible, irresolvable problems.
= no confidence vote = election = new government. Probability is that labour will not get a majority.
I'm generally centre-left, but will vote for the sensible conservative party if there isn't a better option (voted conservative once before in the staffordshire PCC elections - mainly because the labour candidate made clear her agenda was to go after the BNP, which I didn't think was an acceptable)
The justice secretary should not be a committed homophobe full stop. Sh*te like this is what toxifies the party.
Off topic. Regarding Ruth Davidson: I think she is massively overrated. She has benefitted massively from being in the position of an insurgent. That is the key to her popularity. The tories in England by contrast have been running a government for 7 years.
I suspect you are correct. And like most politicians who start believing their own publicity, her comeuppance can't be far away (exception was Tony Blair who took years and years and years to become unpopular)
The blank cheque that May sought for Brexit was not a good thing. She now has to look beyond the narrow interests of one part of the Tory party.
Ssnip It's an unmitigated disaster for the country. There's no getting away from this. It's likely to turn out to be the most catastrophic election result of modern times.
Well there IS a way out of this mess. But it would require putting the interests of the country ahead of the interests of the Conservative Party. Something they seem adverse to in recent times.
If May were to go back to the Palace and tell Lizzie that the country needs a government that commands either a majority or a firm coalition and that the only way this might be achieved is to have another election, then there is a way out of the mess that May is responsible for.
Who knows, if they got their act together and put forward a half decent campaign and adjusted their manifesto, the Tories might even come out of it with a majority. Failing that, at least we could be left with a Labour government that is not fettered by a minor Party form Northern Ireland.
And for the avoidance of doubt, I am neither a Labour or Corbyn supporter.
There's no guarantee that the result would be significantly different, it might work if May resigned and the Tories were led by someone different, maybe Hammond?
It is one of these situations when, if things are not working, then why not try something else? It may not work either but what we have now is not looking good.
If changing to Hammond would work then I would say "Do it" but it does not solve the issue of being in a minority govt.
It would not surprise me if we had three elections in quick succession: the one we just had, the next one putting Corbyn in as a minority govt and then another one to put a govt in with a proper majority.
It rather looks like a minority labour government is a nailed on certainty.
I think we've reached peak nonsense now.
Labour are 6% ahead in the polls, the tories are in meltdown, no majority and facing multiple intractible, irresolvable problems.
= no confidence vote = election = new government. Probability is that labour will not get a majority.
I know the DUP are still in the political stone age, but wouldn't a cute way of gtting leverage on the government be for Arlene to ask May to 'have a look at' funding for the more deprived regions of the UK *cough* which may well suffer as a result of Brexit ?
The DUP's negotiating strategy will be the reverse of Jessie J's:
It's all about the money, money, money We just need your money money money It's all about the uh cha-ching cha-ching And about the yeah b-bling b-bling
The one thing that could put May on the front foot quickly would be some radical moves. Stuff that would drive Corbyn supporters up the wall. Steal a few of their policies. Go big and brave.
Grab the momentum back.
Tell the UK that, okay - I fecked up, but we all feck up sometimes and it doesn't mean we've suddenly become a useless party.
Sadly for May, I think she lacks the deftness of foot, the originality and the chutzpah to do anything but slither ever so slowly to political obliteration.
There are parallels. But the difference is the Brexit clock which probably makes the option of putting Labour in as a minority and then watching them implode rather unlikely...
The conservatives are in a strategically impossible position. Essentially, they are trying to bridge a gap between being the party of stability, security and continuity, and also the radical insurgency (Brexit). The two are inconsistent with one another, because achieving the latter effectively undermines the former, as it involves massive disruption. Yet they are promising people both. All Corbyn has to do is sit there talking in vague terms about a 'jobs first Brexit', and he will absolutely tear apart the conservative party. Every bit of bad economic data now will harm the conservative party and turn people against the 'destructive, hard brexit' being pursed by the tories. Labour doesn't even need to set out its own vision, to do so would just be ammunition to its opponents. The conservatives risk end up losing their reputation for economic competence, and will also eventually be seen as the mis sellers of Brexit. I have to say that this is the most astonishing turn of events politically in my lifetime. I get some satisfaction in seeing the right wing press being so profoundly undermined, but also genuinely fear a Corbyn led government.
The wealthy Tories who led the Leave and Remain campaigns have inflicted huge damage on the country - and this is only the start. They began something that they had absolutely no control over without a semblance of planning. It is extraordinary that they are still in positions of responsibility. Boris Johnson, who did it all merely to advance his career, is our foreign secretary FFS. It's surreal.
I think there is little alternative but for May to resign and her successor call another election. I understand all the arguments about how disruptive this would be but I don't see the planned arrangements as stable and we are simply delaying the inevitable.
Thanks,
Well, you might be right. However, the Article 50 clock is ticking, which is a complicating factor.
I'm not sure I can take another day of this. Yet alone two years.
It's embarrassing, depressing, emasculating and humiliating.
I do feel for you, honestly.
But equally honestly, I'm loving every last minute of this.
Just so as we are all clear on the facts, can anybody here tell us what would be, technically speaking and politics aside, the earliest date by which we could have another election?
I have a feeling it may just be the optimum date for the Conservatives, but it would be nice to know anyway.
I cannot see them repealing gay marriage or civil partnerships or increasing the age of consent for homosexual activity or any legal activity for that matter. I don't see the problem, people are getting worked into a frenzy about nothing.
Are you LGBT yourself? If not then you shouldn't presume on the behalf of others about how to feel about this deal.
Gay people make up a notable percentage of the population. The ONS estimates about 6%
A much larger part of the population have a close relative who is gay or a friend or a workmate who is gay.
May should have brought Gove back in as Justice Secretary. Since she has brought him back anyway in the face of inevitable (unfounded) criticism it should at least have been to a job where he was widely praised for his work by all sides of the House and importantly by the prison service itself.
Too senior a position I suspect. Plus - Defra has to do some serious thinking and reimagining of what Brexit means. Arguably a bigger change for them than any other department.
Michael Gove - like him or loathe him - is a dreamer and this kind of challenge gives him a chance to shine and invest his energy in the May project.
It is unbelievable that Gove was not sent back to Justice. He had the confidence of the legal profession and the prison service in what is now one of the most difficult jobs in government. Truss was a lightweight no mark, Grayling before her was a disaster. Hopefully his day will come again.
I cannot see them repealing gay marriage or civil partnerships or increasing the age of consent for homosexual activity or any legal activity for that matter. I don't see the problem, people are getting worked into a frenzy about nothing.
Are you LGBT yourself? If not then you shouldn't presume on the behalf of others about how to feel about this deal.
The conservatives are in a strategically impossible position. Essentially, they are trying to bridge a gap between being the party of stability, security and continuity, and also the radical insurgency (Brexit). The two are inconsistent with one another, because achieving the latter effectively undermines the former, as it involves massive disruption. Yet they are promising people both. All Corbyn has to do is sit there talking in vague terms about a 'jobs first Brexit', and he will absolutely tear apart the conservative party. Every bit of bad economic data now will harm the conservative party and turn people against the 'destructive, hard brexit' being pursed by the tories. Labour doesn't even need to set out its own vision, to do so would just be ammunition to its opponents. The conservatives risk end up losing their reputation for economic competence, and will also eventually be seen as the mis sellers of Brexit. I have to say that this is the most astonishing turn of events politically in my lifetime. I get some satisfaction in seeing the right wing press being so profoundly undermined, but also genuinely fear a Corbyn led government.
The wealthy Tories who led the Leave and Remain campaigns have inflicted huge damage on the country - and this is only the start. They began something that they had absolutely no control over without a semblance of planning. It is extraordinary that they are still in positions of responsibility. Boris Johnson, who did it all merely to advance his career, is our foreign secretary FFS. It's surreal.
Man of the people Jeremy Corbyn was wholly absent from the Brexit debate. He should have given more of a lead. Instead all we heard from was Gisela and Kate.
Edit: of course we know why he was absent but that even more shows it wasn't just wealthy Tories.
Comments
Essentially, they are trying to bridge a gap between being the party of stability, security and continuity, and also the radical insurgency (Brexit).
The two are inconsistent with one another, because achieving the latter effectively undermines the former, as it involves massive disruption. Yet they are promising people both.
All Corbyn has to do is sit there talking in vague terms about a 'jobs first Brexit', and he will absolutely tear apart the conservative party.
Every bit of bad economic data now will harm the conservative party and turn people against the 'destructive, hard brexit' being pursed by the tories. Labour doesn't even need to set out its own vision, to do so would just be ammunition to its opponents.
The conservatives risk end up losing their reputation for economic competence, and will also eventually be seen as the mis sellers of Brexit.
I have to say that this is the most astonishing turn of events politically in my lifetime. I get some satisfaction in seeing the right wing press being so profoundly undermined, but also genuinely fear a Corbyn led government.
But I want Leave, just a different kind
I want Leave, won't break me down
Won't brick me up, won't fence me in
I want a Leave, that don't mean a thing
That's the Leave I want, I want Leave
The DUP deal is short term gain for long term pain.
Oops.
She has benefitted massively from being in the position of an insurgent. That is the key to her popularity. The tories in England by contrast have been running a government for 7 years.
Who was it who had the Tories behind in a Yougov this year bet ?
I said at the time that the election could well help that....
I expect at the next by-election the Tories will be tonked.
But the quasi-puritanical lust amongst antis to grind existing works of art into dust is literally philistinism. It should not have been pandered to in the first place.
Well, you might be right. However, the Article 50 clock is ticking, which is a complicating factor.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/06/12/theresa-may-appoints-anti-lgbt-justice-secretary-in-the-middle-of-dup-negotiations/
I did a little bit, but nothing like how Royal Blue, Mortimer, Topping and David Herdson slaved.
I will need time to fully digest and understand the results, which deeply worry me.
You've lost all perspective mate.
It's embarrassing, depressing, emasculating and humiliating.
But equally honestly, I'm loving every last minute of this.
Seriously.
It rather looks like a minority labour government is a nailed on certainty. So, I fear, is a brutal right wing conservative majority government further on down the road.
Plus - Defra has to do some serious thinking and reimagining of what Brexit means.
Arguably a bigger change for them than any other department.
Michael Gove - like him or loathe him - is a dreamer and this kind of challenge gives him a chance to shine and invest his energy in the May project.
Cut VAT in half for a three month period to boost the economy.
Put together a plan to build 1million new homes.
Leave corporation tax untouched.
Come up with 2 or 3 seriously business friendly policies.
Start negotiating Brexit in a grown-up, open manner.
And put on really really really disciplined front through the summer.
Then go back to the country.
The opposition will cry foul but political opportunism is perfectly justifiable given the current clusterf*ck. Just imagine what a summer of uncertainty followed by a sharp drop in business confidence and a nasty recession would do... There'd be blood on the Tory carpets.
... and then a Corbyn govt would be a serious possibility.
The Tories will be worried about the damage they could take from being unable to manage parliament thereafter. That's why they need a deal. Trouble is, until the QS is through, they also need a leader. Because any deal needs a credible Tory leader who is likely to stick around, any deal done now is unlikely to be seen as lasting and therefore might as well be short term.
Getting the QS through and then resigning immediately afterwards as Tory leader, whilst remaining caretaker PM, is a viable option for May. Presumably the QS wont contain much other than routine business and Brexit, anyway. The new leader then arrives at the end of the summer and endeavours to reach a longer term understanding with the DUP.
How very apt.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-40251890
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/michael-gove-environment-secretary-voting-record-green-issues-cabinet-reshuffle-general-election-a7785761.html
= no confidence vote = election = new government.
Probability is that labour will not get a majority.
I'm generally centre-left, but will vote for the sensible conservative party if there isn't a better option (voted conservative once before in the staffordshire PCC elections - mainly because the labour candidate made clear her agenda was to go after the BNP, which I didn't think was an acceptable)
The justice secretary should not be a committed homophobe full stop. Sh*te like this is what toxifies the party.
It's all about the money, money, money
We just need your money money money
It's all about the uh cha-ching cha-ching
And about the yeah b-bling b-bling
Grab the momentum back.
Tell the UK that, okay - I fecked up, but we all feck up sometimes and it doesn't mean we've suddenly become a useless party.
Sadly for May, I think she lacks the deftness of foot, the originality and the chutzpah to do anything but slither ever so slowly to political obliteration.
I have a feeling it may just be the optimum date for the Conservatives, but it would be nice to know anyway.
A much larger part of the population have a close relative who is gay or a friend or a workmate who is gay.
1. Not having to worry about their kids tuition fees.
2. Not letting Theresa The House Stealer steal their inheritances.
Edit: of course we know why he was absent but that even more shows it wasn't just wealthy Tories.