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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Macron ends up doing even better than the exit polls

SystemSystem Posts: 11,018
edited May 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Macron ends up doing even better than the exit polls

New York Times graphic

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  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,962
    First!
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,112
    The first loser....
  • Options
    PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited May 2017
    "We had that remarkable statement from Ladbrokes on. Saturday that 90% of the bets being placed with them were on Le Pen a mood that, perhaps, had been helped by memories of Brexit and Trump."

    I didn't catch the ladbrokes statement - although I did ping him on here after betfair said something similar;

    http://politicalbetting.vanillaforums.com/discussion/comment/1544323#Comment_1544323
    Pong said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pong said:

    Le Pen is edging in a little on betfair.

    Macron 1.12/3
    Le Pen 9.2/6

    God only knows why
    Doesn't make much sense to me either.

    It would be interesting if @shadsy is seeing the same thing;

    https://betting.betfair.com/politics/french-politics/french-presidential-election-betting-odds-wednesday-3-may-030517-299.html

    "In a flurry of activity that has now seen over £23m traded on Betfair's Exchange overall, and over £2m in the past 48hrs, a huge number of individual bets have been placed on Marine Le Pen. 80% of all bets placed have been on the Front National candidate, in a situation that mimics what happened in November of last year during the US Presidential election which saw Donald Trump swoop to power."

    To me, that doesn't indicate smart money.

    We'll see.
    I was right. It wasn't smart money.

    I put a large bet on, hoping for a ~12% return. Then news of a massive hack hit the headlines. I cashed out.

    pft.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,270
    Fourth!
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,892
    Morning. Damn the French polls, I was on the 35-40% band. Oh well, another day.
  • Options
    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,713
    Pong said:

    "We had that remarkable statement from Ladbrokes on. Saturday that 90% of the bets being placed with them were on Le Pen a mood that, perhaps, had been helped by memories of Brexit and Trump."

    I didn't catch the ladbrokes statement - although I did ping him on here after betfair said something similar;

    http://politicalbetting.vanillaforums.com/discussion/comment/1544323#Comment_1544323

    Pong said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pong said:

    Le Pen is edging in a little on betfair.

    Macron 1.12/3
    Le Pen 9.2/6

    God only knows why
    Doesn't make much sense to me either.

    It would be interesting if @shadsy is seeing the same thing;

    https://betting.betfair.com/politics/french-politics/french-presidential-election-betting-odds-wednesday-3-may-030517-299.html

    "In a flurry of activity that has now seen over £23m traded on Betfair's Exchange overall, and over £2m in the past 48hrs, a huge number of individual bets have been placed on Marine Le Pen. 80% of all bets placed have been on the Front National candidate, in a situation that mimics what happened in November of last year during the US Presidential election which saw Donald Trump swoop to power."

    To me, that doesn't indicate smart money.

    We'll see.
    I was right. It wasn't smart money.

    I put a large bet on, hoping for a ~12% return. Then news of a massive hack hit the headlines. I cashed out.

    pft.
    12.5% gain for me, but I only bet £100
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,191
    Pong said:

    "I put a large bet on, hoping for a ~12% return. Then news of a massive hack hit the headlines. I cashed out.

    pft.

    At least this time the bookies didn't pay out on the winner in advance!

    Even though this time they would presumably have got it right...
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Pong said:

    "We had that remarkable statement from Ladbrokes on. Saturday that 90% of the bets being placed with them were on Le Pen a mood that, perhaps, had been helped by memories of Brexit and Trump."

    I didn't catch the ladbrokes statement - although I did ping him on here after betfair said something similar;

    http://politicalbetting.vanillaforums.com/discussion/comment/1544323#Comment_1544323

    Pong said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pong said:

    Le Pen is edging in a little on betfair.

    Macron 1.12/3
    Le Pen 9.2/6

    God only knows why
    Doesn't make much sense to me either.

    It would be interesting if @shadsy is seeing the same thing;

    https://betting.betfair.com/politics/french-politics/french-presidential-election-betting-odds-wednesday-3-may-030517-299.html

    "In a flurry of activity that has now seen over £23m traded on Betfair's Exchange overall, and over £2m in the past 48hrs, a huge number of individual bets have been placed on Marine Le Pen. 80% of all bets placed have been on the Front National candidate, in a situation that mimics what happened in November of last year during the US Presidential election which saw Donald Trump swoop to power."

    To me, that doesn't indicate smart money.

    We'll see.
    I was right. It wasn't smart money.

    I put a large bet on, hoping for a ~12% return. Then news of a massive hack hit the headlines. I cashed out.

    pft.
    I suspect the hack (as well as the debate) helped Macron. Such blatent interference by the Russians to smear Macron worked in his favour.

    My best band was the 30-35% by some margin, so sitting pretty on some stake money for June.
  • Options
    daodaodaodao Posts: 821

    The first loser....

    Will it be Putin, Erdogan or May? The authoritarian leaders of the 3 main countries on the fringes of Europe, who do not support the European vision, are unlikely to welcome Macron's victory.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    John The Baptist Marxist has a few problems....

    John McDonnell faces a Labour revolt to unseat him as shadow chancellor after he said there was “a lot to learn” from Karl Marx's Das Kapital.

    Shadow cabinet sources said Jeremy Corbyn’s right-hand man, who has described himself in the past as an “unapologetic Marxist”, had done nothing to help Labour’s cause with a month to go to the general election.

    And while they said it was too late to mount a challenge to Mr McDonnell or Mr Corbyn before the June 8 ballot, there will be “no holding back” when Labour MPs come back to Parliament after the election.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/07/john-mcdonnell-refuses-rule-60-top-tax-rate-suggests-lot-learn/

    Have the Tories ruled out 60p tax rate ? For anybody ?
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    A big disappointment for Trump Farage and many posters on here but a great day for the French who would never choose the fascist however it was wrapped.

    Farage said yesterday that Le Pen would be much the best choice for Brexit which I'm afraid tells you all you need to know about the choice we have made.
  • Options
    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    surbiton said:

    John The Baptist Marxist has a few problems....

    John McDonnell faces a Labour revolt to unseat him as shadow chancellor after he said there was “a lot to learn” from Karl Marx's Das Kapital.

    Shadow cabinet sources said Jeremy Corbyn’s right-hand man, who has described himself in the past as an “unapologetic Marxist”, had done nothing to help Labour’s cause with a month to go to the general election.

    And while they said it was too late to mount a challenge to Mr McDonnell or Mr Corbyn before the June 8 ballot, there will be “no holding back” when Labour MPs come back to Parliament after the election.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/07/john-mcdonnell-refuses-rule-60-top-tax-rate-suggests-lot-learn/

    Have the Tories ruled out 60p tax rate ? For anybody ?
    Parties generally only rule out things that people think they might do.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    Pong said:

    "We had that remarkable statement from Ladbrokes on. Saturday that 90% of the bets being placed with them were on Le Pen a mood that, perhaps, had been helped by memories of Brexit and Trump."

    I didn't catch the ladbrokes statement - although I did ping him on here after betfair said something similar;

    http://politicalbetting.vanillaforums.com/discussion/comment/1544323#Comment_1544323

    Pong said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pong said:

    Le Pen is edging in a little on betfair.

    Macron 1.12/3
    Le Pen 9.2/6

    God only knows why
    Doesn't make much sense to me either.

    It would be interesting if @shadsy is seeing the same thing;

    https://betting.betfair.com/politics/french-politics/french-presidential-election-betting-odds-wednesday-3-may-030517-299.html

    "In a flurry of activity that has now seen over £23m traded on Betfair's Exchange overall, and over £2m in the past 48hrs, a huge number of individual bets have been placed on Marine Le Pen. 80% of all bets placed have been on the Front National candidate, in a situation that mimics what happened in November of last year during the US Presidential election which saw Donald Trump swoop to power."

    To me, that doesn't indicate smart money.

    We'll see.
    I was right. It wasn't smart money.

    I put a large bet on, hoping for a ~12% return. Then news of a massive hack hit the headlines. I cashed out.

    pft.
    I suspect the hack (as well as the debate) helped Macron. Such blatent interference by the Russians to smear Macron worked in his favour.

    My best band was the 30-35% by some margin, so sitting pretty on some stake money for June.
    I don't think it was the Russians or the Russians alone. The Alt-Right had a hand in this. The Macron files "broke out" first in the USA.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    surbiton said:

    John The Baptist Marxist has a few problems....

    John McDonnell faces a Labour revolt to unseat him as shadow chancellor after he said there was “a lot to learn” from Karl Marx's Das Kapital.

    Shadow cabinet sources said Jeremy Corbyn’s right-hand man, who has described himself in the past as an “unapologetic Marxist”, had done nothing to help Labour’s cause with a month to go to the general election.

    And while they said it was too late to mount a challenge to Mr McDonnell or Mr Corbyn before the June 8 ballot, there will be “no holding back” when Labour MPs come back to Parliament after the election.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/07/john-mcdonnell-refuses-rule-60-top-tax-rate-suggests-lot-learn/

    Have the Tories ruled out 60p tax rate ? For anybody ?
    Parties generally only rule out things that people think they might do.
    Have the Tories ruled out 21p on the basic rate ?
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,270

    surbiton said:

    John The Baptist Marxist has a few problems....

    John McDonnell faces a Labour revolt to unseat him as shadow chancellor after he said there was “a lot to learn” from Karl Marx's Das Kapital.

    Shadow cabinet sources said Jeremy Corbyn’s right-hand man, who has described himself in the past as an “unapologetic Marxist”, had done nothing to help Labour’s cause with a month to go to the general election.

    And while they said it was too late to mount a challenge to Mr McDonnell or Mr Corbyn before the June 8 ballot, there will be “no holding back” when Labour MPs come back to Parliament after the election.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/07/john-mcdonnell-refuses-rule-60-top-tax-rate-suggests-lot-learn/

    Have the Tories ruled out 60p tax rate ? For anybody ?
    Parties generally only rule out things that people think they might do.
    The Tories will fiddle about with NI, maybe even integrate it with Income Tax, and curtail reliefs such as those on pension contributions, to raise the money the next government will need. They won't be as blatant (honest) as raising a headline rate; instead we are in for five years of stealth taxes.
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Roger said:

    A big disappointment for Trump Farage and many posters on here but a great day for the French who would never choose the fascist however it was wrapped.

    Farage said yesterday that Le Pen would be much the best choice for Brexit which I'm afraid tells you all you need to know about the choice we have made.

    33% Le Pen and 33% abstentions. France remains a country with problems. A huge test for Macron to achieve the reforms France needs. Fortunately the likes of Farage never got anywhere near the electoral success needed to govern in the UK
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Roger said:

    A big disappointment for Trump Farage and many posters on here but a great day for the French who would never choose the fascist however it was wrapped.

    Farage said yesterday that Le Pen would be much the best choice for Brexit which I'm afraid tells you all you need to know about the choice we have made.

    I used to describe Farage [ pronounced like "garage" because surely he cannot be pronounced as if it was a French name ] as BNP-Lite.

    I wish to take off the "lite" bit.
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    surbiton said:

    John The Baptist Marxist has a few problems....

    John McDonnell faces a Labour revolt to unseat him as shadow chancellor after he said there was “a lot to learn” from Karl Marx's Das Kapital.

    Shadow cabinet sources said Jeremy Corbyn’s right-hand man, who has described himself in the past as an “unapologetic Marxist”, had done nothing to help Labour’s cause with a month to go to the general election.

    And while they said it was too late to mount a challenge to Mr McDonnell or Mr Corbyn before the June 8 ballot, there will be “no holding back” when Labour MPs come back to Parliament after the election.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/07/john-mcdonnell-refuses-rule-60-top-tax-rate-suggests-lot-learn/

    Have the Tories ruled out 60p tax rate ? For anybody ?
    They don't need to say much on tax.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    felix said:

    Roger said:

    A big disappointment for Trump Farage and many posters on here but a great day for the French who would never choose the fascist however it was wrapped.

    Farage said yesterday that Le Pen would be much the best choice for Brexit which I'm afraid tells you all you need to know about the choice we have made.

    33% Le Pen and 33% abstentions. France remains a country with problems. A huge test for Macron to achieve the reforms France needs. Fortunately the likes of Farage never got anywhere near the electoral success needed to govern in the UK
    No problem. Did you listen to the "ode to joy" ?
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    felix said:

    surbiton said:

    John The Baptist Marxist has a few problems....

    John McDonnell faces a Labour revolt to unseat him as shadow chancellor after he said there was “a lot to learn” from Karl Marx's Das Kapital.

    Shadow cabinet sources said Jeremy Corbyn’s right-hand man, who has described himself in the past as an “unapologetic Marxist”, had done nothing to help Labour’s cause with a month to go to the general election.

    And while they said it was too late to mount a challenge to Mr McDonnell or Mr Corbyn before the June 8 ballot, there will be “no holding back” when Labour MPs come back to Parliament after the election.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/07/john-mcdonnell-refuses-rule-60-top-tax-rate-suggests-lot-learn/

    Have the Tories ruled out 60p tax rate ? For anybody ?
    They don't need to say much on tax.
    That is because the media and the BBC are full of Tories !
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,270
    Labourlist.org seems to be down; maybe they've been hacked as well?
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    felix said:

    Fortunately the likes of Farage never got anywhere near the electoral success needed to govern in the UK

    Tezza is doing it for him

    https://twitter.com/tmaycasebooks/status/861158759124656129
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Sandpit said:

    Morning. Damn the French polls, I was on the 35-40% band. Oh well, another day.

    Well, well! Expecting a fascist to win 35% ? Had it been the UK.....
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    edited May 2017
    meanwhile back in Schleswig Holstein the SPD once again has failed to live up to its billing with a drop in support of 3.2% while the CDU nudged up by 1.2%.

    The Schulz effect appears to have been and gone.
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    daodao said:

    The first loser....

    Will it be Putin, Erdogan or May? The authoritarian leaders of the 3 main countries on the fringes of Europe, who do not support the European vision, are unlikely to welcome Macron's victory.
    It would be nice to think the tide is turning but it's a bit early to tell. One spin off is likely to be the reinvigoration of the Remainers as we watch the new optimism spreading from accross the channel.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    edited May 2017

    surbiton said:

    John The Baptist Marxist has a few problems....

    John McDonnell faces a Labour revolt to unseat him as shadow chancellor after he said there was “a lot to learn” from Karl Marx's Das Kapital.

    Shadow cabinet sources said Jeremy Corbyn’s right-hand man, who has described himself in the past as an “unapologetic Marxist”, had done nothing to help Labour’s cause with a month to go to the general election.

    And while they said it was too late to mount a challenge to Mr McDonnell or Mr Corbyn before the June 8 ballot, there will be “no holding back” when Labour MPs come back to Parliament after the election.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/07/john-mcdonnell-refuses-rule-60-top-tax-rate-suggests-lot-learn/

    Have the Tories ruled out 60p tax rate ? For anybody ?
    Parties generally only rule out things that people think they might do.
    OK. In that case, will they increase NIC on the tax dodgers self-employed ?
  • Options
    AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    IanB2 said:

    surbiton said:

    John The Baptist Marxist has a few problems....

    John McDonnell faces a Labour revolt to unseat him as shadow chancellor after he said there was “a lot to learn” from Karl Marx's Das Kapital.

    Shadow cabinet sources said Jeremy Corbyn’s right-hand man, who has described himself in the past as an “unapologetic Marxist”, had done nothing to help Labour’s cause with a month to go to the general election.

    And while they said it was too late to mount a challenge to Mr McDonnell or Mr Corbyn before the June 8 ballot, there will be “no holding back” when Labour MPs come back to Parliament after the election.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/07/john-mcdonnell-refuses-rule-60-top-tax-rate-suggests-lot-learn/

    Have the Tories ruled out 60p tax rate ? For anybody ?
    Parties generally only rule out things that people think they might do.
    The Tories will fiddle about with NI, maybe even integrate it with Income Tax, and curtail reliefs such as those on pension contributions, to raise the money the next government will need. They won't be as blatant (honest) as raising a headline rate; instead we are in for five years of stealth taxes.
    Where as things were much more honest and straighforward under Gordon Brown ;)
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    felix said:

    surbiton said:

    John The Baptist Marxist has a few problems....

    John McDonnell faces a Labour revolt to unseat him as shadow chancellor after he said there was “a lot to learn” from Karl Marx's Das Kapital.

    Shadow cabinet sources said Jeremy Corbyn’s right-hand man, who has described himself in the past as an “unapologetic Marxist”, had done nothing to help Labour’s cause with a month to go to the general election.

    And while they said it was too late to mount a challenge to Mr McDonnell or Mr Corbyn before the June 8 ballot, there will be “no holding back” when Labour MPs come back to Parliament after the election.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/07/john-mcdonnell-refuses-rule-60-top-tax-rate-suggests-lot-learn/

    Have the Tories ruled out 60p tax rate ? For anybody ?
    They don't need to say much on tax.
    Quite so. The Tories are not going to be stupid enough to be backed into a corner on anything. Everyone knows Labours calcs are on the back of a fag packet. They can say pretty much anything and everything and say it is fully costed and no one will believe them. None of them are trusted , especially Corbyn's acolytes.
    I mean who would believe a chancellor who had been calling for direct action and closing off the Houses of Parliament bypassing democracy because it "doesn't work"
    I
    (see video posted on here yesterday or the day before)
  • Options
    AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    edited May 2017
    surbiton said:

    Sandpit said:

    Morning. Damn the French polls, I was on the 35-40% band. Oh well, another day.

    Well, well! Expecting a fascist to win 35% ? Had it been the UK.....
    You still struggle with the difference between what you want to happen, and where you place your money... No, actually you don't, you just like making cheap points and stiring the sh*t.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    edited May 2017

    meanwhile back in Schleswig Holstein the SPD once again has failed to live up to its billing with a drop in support of 3.2% while the CDU nudged up by 1.2%.

    The Schulz effect appears to have been and gone.

    Merkel ! Merkel !! [ all together ] Merkel !!! The alt-right AfD are in a spin as well. After France, this will be another disappointment amongst the Alt-Right here on PB.
  • Options
    Fortunately, the post-debate reaction convinced me to switch from the 35-40 band and 40/45 band combination to the 30/35 and 35/40 (and to tip it here).

    I hope everyone took the opportunity of the free money available during the last two weeks on Betfair on Macron winning. Having him at 1.11or 1.12 so long was absurd (but very profitable for me).

    The next interesting markets on French politics are the next PM and the biggest party after the June elections.

    On the next PM market, there is very little activity on Betfair and the prices are currently bizarre (1.2 for T. mariani, a far-right MP when the centrist Bayrou is at 3.2 for example).

    The market on the legislative election is barely more active but at least the prices are more logical: you can back En marche at 1.84 and Republicans at 2.22. All others are no hopers anyway.



  • Options
    AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    edited May 2017
    Roger said:

    daodao said:

    The first loser....

    Will it be Putin, Erdogan or May? The authoritarian leaders of the 3 main countries on the fringes of Europe, who do not support the European vision, are unlikely to welcome Macron's victory.
    It would be nice to think the tide is turning but it's a bit early to tell. One spin off is likely to be the reinvigoration of the Remainers as we watch the new optimism spreading from accross the channel.
    I think we should wait until his unveils his program, and passes his first budget without the whole country grinding to a halt from strikes before we get to carried away. Sure, he looks good on TV, and talks a good line, but can he actually achieve anything.

    Running against MLP is one thing, she pretty much gets his vote out for him. I am interested in how he is going to attempt to get a good showing in the assembly without a local party machine to put in the shoe leather, canvaas his voters, deliver his leaflets and get his vote out.
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    felix said:

    Roger said:

    A big disappointment for Trump Farage and many posters on here but a great day for the French who would never choose the fascist however it was wrapped.

    Farage said yesterday that Le Pen would be much the best choice for Brexit which I'm afraid tells you all you need to know about the choice we have made.

    33% Le Pen and 33% abstentions. France remains a country with problems. A huge test for Macron to achieve the reforms France needs. Fortunately the likes of Farage never got anywhere near the electoral success needed to govern in the UK
    That's true. It wasn't just 67% who rejected fascism but many more who abstained.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,920
    edited May 2017
    Pong said:

    "We had that remarkable statement from Ladbrokes on. Saturday that 90% of the bets being placed with them were on Le Pen a mood that, perhaps, had been helped by memories of Brexit and Trump."

    I didn't catch the ladbrokes statement - although I did ping him on here after betfair said something similar;

    http://politicalbetting.vanillaforums.com/discussion/comment/1544323#Comment_1544323

    Pong said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pong said:

    Le Pen is edging in a little on betfair.

    Macron 1.12/3
    Le Pen 9.2/6

    God only knows why
    Doesn't make much sense to me either.

    It would be interesting if @shadsy is seeing the same thing;

    https://betting.betfair.com/politics/french-politics/french-presidential-election-betting-odds-wednesday-3-may-030517-299.html

    "In a flurry of activity that has now seen over £23m traded on Betfair's Exchange overall, and over £2m in the past 48hrs, a huge number of individual bets have been placed on Marine Le Pen. 80% of all bets placed have been on the Front National candidate, in a situation that mimics what happened in November of last year during the US Presidential election which saw Donald Trump swoop to power."

    To me, that doesn't indicate smart money.

    We'll see.
    I was right. It wasn't smart money.

    I put a large bet on, hoping for a ~12% return. Then news of a massive hack hit the headlines. I cashed out.

    pft.
    One thing to be able to post here what to do, quite another to be able to pull the trigger and keep it there. This is the election I have left most out on the table tbh, but it is also the most certain. Even the Tories won't beat Corbyn by 30+ points. But even I couldn't put it all down.
  • Options
    AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    surbiton said:

    meanwhile back in Schleswig Holstein the SPD once again has failed to live up to its billing with a drop in support of 3.2% while the CDU nudged up by 1.2%.

    The Schulz effect appears to have been and gone.

    Merkel ! Merkel !! [ all together ] Merkel !!! The alt-right AfD are in a spin as well. After France, this will be another disappointment amongst the Alt-Right here on PB.
    Who it seems are nicely balanced by the Ctrl-Left on PB ;)
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    Roger said:

    daodao said:

    The first loser....

    Will it be Putin, Erdogan or May? The authoritarian leaders of the 3 main countries on the fringes of Europe, who do not support the European vision, are unlikely to welcome Macron's victory.
    It would be nice to think the tide is turning but it's a bit early to tell. One spin off is likely to be the reinvigoration of the Remainers as we watch the new optimism spreading from accross the channel.
    I think we should wait until his unveils his program, and passes his first budget without the whole country grinding to a halt from strikes before we get to carried away. Sure, he looks good on TV, and talks a good line, but can he actually achieve anything.

    Running against MLP is one thing, she pretty much gets his vote out for him. I am interested in how he is going to attempt to get a good showing in the assembly without a local party machine to put in the shoe leather, canvaas his voters, deliver his leaflets and get his vote out.
    En Marche is already in the polls leading all other parties. In many places, they will be using the ex-Socialist Party machine.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,246
    IanB2 said:

    surbiton said:

    -60-top-tax-rate-suggests-lot-learn/

    The Tories will fiddle about with NI, maybe even integrate it with Income Tax, and curtail reliefs such as those on pension contributions, to raise the money the next government will need. They won't be as blatant (honest) as raising a headline rate; instead we are in for five years of stealth taxes.
    I think that is right. We have had 7 years of stealth taxes on the better off which has been the main driving force towards reducing the deficit. The irony is that in practice the Tories have been quite aggressive about this but still feel able to abuse Labour about "tax bombshells".

    I think Hammond will try hard to avoid the kinds of commitments that caused him such problems with the NI increases. Cameron felt the need to have sharp and hard commitments on these issues because the election was so close. He was right of course in that he only got a small and slightly unexpected majority. I think this time around there will be considerably more studied ambiguity and wriggle room.

    On balance, this is probably a good thing. The next government will have to significantly increase spending on Social Care and the NHS and it would be nice if there was some left over for infrastructure spending.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    surbiton said:

    meanwhile back in Schleswig Holstein the SPD once again has failed to live up to its billing with a drop in support of 3.2% while the CDU nudged up by 1.2%.

    The Schulz effect appears to have been and gone.

    Merkel ! Merkel !! [ all together ] Merkel !!! The alt-right AfD are in a spin as well. After France, this will be another disappointment amongst the Alt-Right here on PB.
    Who it seems are nicely balanced by the Ctrl-Left on PB ;)
    If I were you, don't push the humour button. You lot are an embarrassment. You only excel in "hate".
  • Options
    AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    surbiton said:

    Roger said:

    daodao said:

    The first loser....

    Will it be Putin, Erdogan or May? The authoritarian leaders of the 3 main countries on the fringes of Europe, who do not support the European vision, are unlikely to welcome Macron's victory.
    It would be nice to think the tide is turning but it's a bit early to tell. One spin off is likely to be the reinvigoration of the Remainers as we watch the new optimism spreading from accross the channel.
    I think we should wait until his unveils his program, and passes his first budget without the whole country grinding to a halt from strikes before we get to carried away. Sure, he looks good on TV, and talks a good line, but can he actually achieve anything.

    Running against MLP is one thing, she pretty much gets his vote out for him. I am interested in how he is going to attempt to get a good showing in the assembly without a local party machine to put in the shoe leather, canvaas his voters, deliver his leaflets and get his vote out.
    En Marche is already in the polls leading all other parties. In many places, they will be using the ex-Socialist Party machine.
    Which in itself is interesting, Macron likes to put himself about as a centrist, but he is quite clearly Hollande's creation, using their foot soldiers is going to make that a bit obvious.
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    surbiton said:

    felix said:

    surbiton said:

    John The Baptist Marxist has a few problems....

    John McDonnell faces a Labour revolt to unseat him as shadow chancellor after he said there was “a lot to learn” from Karl Marx's Das Kapital.

    Shadow cabinet sources said Jeremy Corbyn’s right-hand man, who has described himself in the past as an “unapologetic Marxist”, had done nothing to help Labour’s cause with a month to go to the general election.

    And while they said it was too late to mount a challenge to Mr McDonnell or Mr Corbyn before the June 8 ballot, there will be “no holding back” when Labour MPs come back to Parliament after the election.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/07/john-mcdonnell-refuses-rule-60-top-tax-rate-suggests-lot-learn/

    Have the Tories ruled out 60p tax rate ? For anybody ?
    They don't need to say much on tax.
    That is because the media and the BBC are full of Tories !
    :)
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,892
    surbiton said:

    Sandpit said:

    Morning. Damn the French polls, I was on the 35-40% band. Oh well, another day.

    Well, well! Expecting a fascist to win 35% ? Had it been the UK.....
    I was following the (very accurate in the first round) polls for what I thought was a value bet.

    I'm pleased for France that they overwhelmingly rejected the fascist, but my poor Betfair account is about £150 down this morning.
  • Options
    Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,060
    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    John The Baptist Marxist has a few problems....

    John McDonnell faces a Labour revolt to unseat him as shadow chancellor after he said there was “a lot to learn” from Karl Marx's Das Kapital.

    Shadow cabinet sources said Jeremy Corbyn’s right-hand man, who has described himself in the past as an “unapologetic Marxist”, had done nothing to help Labour’s cause with a month to go to the general election.

    And while they said it was too late to mount a challenge to Mr McDonnell or Mr Corbyn before the June 8 ballot, there will be “no holding back” when Labour MPs come back to Parliament after the election.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/07/john-mcdonnell-refuses-rule-60-top-tax-rate-suggests-lot-learn/

    Have the Tories ruled out 60p tax rate ? For anybody ?
    Parties generally only rule out things that people think they might do.
    OK. In that case, will they increase NIC on the tax dodgers self-employed ?
    Surely one of the factors in May's decision to go for an early GE was the reaction to the budget and the NI rise? She will want as few concrete promises as possible apart from those needed to force the HoL not to block her pet projects.

    If she does tie her hands on tax rises I will be disappointed, as the current system desperately needs simplifying which will be impossible without some rates going up even if the overall effect is revenue neutral.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    surbiton said:

    -60-top-tax-rate-suggests-lot-learn/

    The Tories will fiddle about with NI, maybe even integrate it with Income Tax, and curtail reliefs such as those on pension contributions, to raise the money the next government will need. They won't be as blatant (honest) as raising a headline rate; instead we are in for five years of stealth taxes.
    I think that is right. We have had 7 years of stealth taxes on the better off which has been the main driving force towards reducing the deficit. The irony is that in practice the Tories have been quite aggressive about this but still feel able to abuse Labour about "tax bombshells".

    I think Hammond will try hard to avoid the kinds of commitments that caused him such problems with the NI increases. Cameron felt the need to have sharp and hard commitments on these issues because the election was so close. He was right of course in that he only got a small and slightly unexpected majority. I think this time around there will be considerably more studied ambiguity and wriggle room.

    On balance, this is probably a good thing. The next government will have to significantly increase spending on Social Care and the NHS and it would be nice if there was some left over for infrastructure spending.
    And this nonsense about zero deficit ! Which other country pursues moronic policy like that ? In the US, Trump is increasing the deficit.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725
    Roger said:

    A big disappointment for Trump Farage and many posters on here but a great day for the French who would never choose the fascist however it was wrapped.

    Farage said yesterday that Le Pen would be much the best choice for Brexit which I'm afraid tells you all you need to know about the choice we have made.

    It tells you what he thinks is all, and I remain highly sceptical 'many' wanted Le Pen to win, I saw barely a handful, but if it makes you feel better.
    daodao said:

    The first loser....

    Will it be Putin, Erdogan or May? The authoritarian leaders of the 3 main countries on the fringes of Europe, who do not support the European vision, are unlikely to welcome Macron's victory.
    Oh yeah, those three are totally the same. Get a grip. For a start, May has already welcomed macrons win.

    For those who aren't fans of May and are wary of her plans with a massive majority like me, over the top talk like that just serves to make her seem fine. How can I take criticism of her from you seriously now?

  • Options
    surbiton said:

    Roger said:

    daodao said:

    The first loser....

    Will it be Putin, Erdogan or May? The authoritarian leaders of the 3 main countries on the fringes of Europe, who do not support the European vision, are unlikely to welcome Macron's victory.
    It would be nice to think the tide is turning but it's a bit early to tell. One spin off is likely to be the reinvigoration of the Remainers as we watch the new optimism spreading from accross the channel.
    . In many places, they will be using the ex-Socialist Party machine.
    Not sure about that but the Socialist party machine is anyway very very weak these days... En marche will have enough volunteers on the ground but the key question will be the candidates (who will be announced this week) and the government that will lead the campaign (expected next Monday)
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    John The Baptist Marxist has a few problems....

    John McDonnell faces a Labour revolt to unseat him as shadow chancellor after he said there was “a lot to learn” from Karl Marx's Das Kapital.

    Shadow cabinet sources said Jeremy Corbyn’s right-hand man, who has described himself in the past as an “unapologetic Marxist”, had done nothing to help Labour’s cause with a month to go to the general election.

    And while they said it was too late to mount a challenge to Mr McDonnell or Mr Corbyn before the June 8 ballot, there will be “no holding back” when Labour MPs come back to Parliament after the election.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/07/john-mcdonnell-refuses-rule-60-top-tax-rate-suggests-lot-learn/

    Have the Tories ruled out 60p tax rate ? For anybody ?
    Parties generally only rule out things that people think they might do.
    OK. In that case, will they increase NIC on the tax dodgers self-employed ?
    Surely one of the factors in May's decision to go for an early GE was the reaction to the budget and the NI rise? She will want as few concrete promises as possible apart from those needed to force the HoL not to block her pet projects.

    If she does tie her hands on tax rises I will be disappointed, as the current system desperately needs simplifying which will be impossible without some rates going up even if the overall effect is revenue neutral.
    But it is OK to ask silly questions at Labour ? The Labour leaders today are so stupid that they cannot come back with the two words: will they ?
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,832

    Roger said:

    daodao said:

    The first loser....

    Will it be Putin, Erdogan or May? The authoritarian leaders of the 3 main countries on the fringes of Europe, who do not support the European vision, are unlikely to welcome Macron's victory.
    It would be nice to think the tide is turning but it's a bit early to tell. One spin off is likely to be the reinvigoration of the Remainers as we watch the new optimism spreading from accross the channel.
    I think we should wait until his unveils his program, and passes his first budget without the whole country grinding to a halt from strikes before we get to carried away. Sure, he looks good on TV, and talks a good line, but can he actually achieve anything.

    Running against MLP is one thing, she pretty much gets his vote out for him. I am interested in how he is going to attempt to get a good showing in the assembly without a local party machine to put in the shoe leather, canvaas his voters, deliver his leaflets and get his vote out.
    I'd have thought En Marche's biggest problem will be the lack of political experience of so many of its MP's.
  • Options
    AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    meanwhile back in Schleswig Holstein the SPD once again has failed to live up to its billing with a drop in support of 3.2% while the CDU nudged up by 1.2%.

    The Schulz effect appears to have been and gone.

    Merkel ! Merkel !! [ all together ] Merkel !!! The alt-right AfD are in a spin as well. After France, this will be another disappointment amongst the Alt-Right here on PB.
    Who it seems are nicely balanced by the Ctrl-Left on PB ;)
    If I were you, don't push the humour button. You lot are an embarrassment. You only excel in "hate".
    Don't look at me guv'nor, I am not even a registered voter - anywhere ;)
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Roger said:

    felix said:

    Roger said:

    A big disappointment for Trump Farage and many posters on here but a great day for the French who would never choose the fascist however it was wrapped.

    Farage said yesterday that Le Pen would be much the best choice for Brexit which I'm afraid tells you all you need to know about the choice we have made.

    33% Le Pen and 33% abstentions. France remains a country with problems. A huge test for Macron to achieve the reforms France needs. Fortunately the likes of Farage never got anywhere near the electoral success needed to govern in the UK
    That's true. It wasn't just 67% who rejected fascism but many more who abstained.
    lol - you remain completely deluded both about the country of your birth and the one you live in.
  • Options
    daodaodaodao Posts: 821

    Roger said:

    daodao said:

    The first loser....

    Will it be Putin, Erdogan or May? The authoritarian leaders of the 3 main countries on the fringes of Europe, who do not support the European vision, are unlikely to welcome Macron's victory.
    It would be nice to think the tide is turning but it's a bit early to tell. One spin off is likely to be the reinvigoration of the Remainers as we watch the new optimism spreading from accross the channel.
    I think we should wait until his unveils his program, and passes his first budget without the whole country grinding to a halt from strikes before we get to carried away. Sure, he looks good on TV, and talks a good line, but can he actually achieve anything.

    Running against MLP is one thing, she pretty much gets his vote out for him. I am interested in how he is going to attempt to get a good showing in the assembly without a local party machine to put in the shoe leather, canvaas his voters, deliver his leaflets and get his vote out.
    It is a victory for the EU vision and a defeat for isolationist authoritarian nationalism, as espoused by Chairman May and the UKIP-Tory party, despite their probable landslide victory on 8/6/17.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    John The Baptist Marxist has a few problems....

    John McDonnell faces a Labour revolt to unseat him as shadow chancellor after he said there was “a lot to learn” from Karl Marx's Das Kapital.

    Shadow cabinet sources said Jeremy Corbyn’s right-hand man, who has described himself in the past as an “unapologetic Marxist”, had done nothing to help Labour’s cause with a month to go to the general election.

    And while they said it was too late to mount a challenge to Mr McDonnell or Mr Corbyn before the June 8 ballot, there will be “no holding back” when Labour MPs come back to Parliament after the election.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/07/john-mcdonnell-refuses-rule-60-top-tax-rate-suggests-lot-learn/

    Have the Tories ruled out 60p tax rate ? For anybody ?
    Parties generally only rule out things that people think they might do.
    OK. In that case, will they increase NIC on the tax dodgers self-employed ?
    Surely one of the factors in May's decision to go for an early GE was the reaction to the budget and the NI rise? She will want as few concrete promises as possible apart from those needed to force the HoL not to block her pet projects.

    If she does tie her hands on tax rises I will be disappointed, as the current system desperately needs simplifying which will be impossible without some rates going up even if the overall effect is revenue neutral.
    Normally I'd say she'd be forced to be specific at some point, but she's so far ahead perhaps she can get away with it, and given how quickly she changed her tune and her fans threw Hammond under the bus, I'd agree we will see few concrete promises.
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    surbiton said:

    Roger said:

    A big disappointment for Trump Farage and many posters on here but a great day for the French who would never choose the fascist however it was wrapped.

    Farage said yesterday that Le Pen would be much the best choice for Brexit which I'm afraid tells you all you need to know about the choice we have made.

    I used to describe Farage [ pronounced like "garage" because surely he cannot be pronounced as if it was a French name ] as BNP-Lite.

    I wish to take off the "lite" bit.
    Congratulations by the way. Yours was the first post I read which strongly tipped Macron. I think you said 'Macron nailed on' and that was before Fillon had his problems. I hope you made a stash!
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    meanwhile back in Schleswig Holstein the SPD once again has failed to live up to its billing with a drop in support of 3.2% while the CDU nudged up by 1.2%.

    The Schulz effect appears to have been and gone.

    Merkel ! Merkel !! [ all together ] Merkel !!! The alt-right AfD are in a spin as well. After France, this will be another disappointment amongst the Alt-Right here on PB.
    Who it seems are nicely balanced by the Ctrl-Left on PB ;)
    If I were you, don't push the humour button. You lot are an embarrassment. You only excel in "hate".
    Reminds me of your words about T. May the "b****".
  • Options
    AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    daodao said:

    Roger said:

    daodao said:

    The first loser....

    Will it be Putin, Erdogan or May? The authoritarian leaders of the 3 main countries on the fringes of Europe, who do not support the European vision, are unlikely to welcome Macron's victory.
    It would be nice to think the tide is turning but it's a bit early to tell. One spin off is likely to be the reinvigoration of the Remainers as we watch the new optimism spreading from accross the channel.
    I think we should wait until his unveils his program, and passes his first budget without the whole country grinding to a halt from strikes before we get to carried away. Sure, he looks good on TV, and talks a good line, but can he actually achieve anything.

    Running against MLP is one thing, she pretty much gets his vote out for him. I am interested in how he is going to attempt to get a good showing in the assembly without a local party machine to put in the shoe leather, canvaas his voters, deliver his leaflets and get his vote out.
    It is a victory for the EU vision and a defeat for isolationist authoritarian nationalism, as espoused by Chairman May and the UKIP-Tory party, despite their probable landslide victory on 8/6/17.
    Defeated by a landslide victory ?

    Liquid breakfast ?
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,246
    surbiton said:

    DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    surbiton said:

    -60-top-tax-rate-suggests-lot-learn/

    The Tories will fiddle about with NI, maybe even integrate it with Income Tax, and curtail reliefs such as those on pension contributions, to raise the money the next government will need. They won't be as blatant (honest) as raising a headline rate; instead we are in for five years of stealth taxes.
    I think that is right. We have had 7 years of stealth taxes on the better off which has been the main driving force towards reducing the deficit. The irony is that in practice the Tories have been quite aggressive about this but still feel able to abuse Labour about "tax bombshells".

    I think Hammond will try hard to avoid the kinds of commitments that caused him such problems with the NI increases. Cameron felt the need to have sharp and hard commitments on these issues because the election was so close. He was right of course in that he only got a small and slightly unexpected majority. I think this time around there will be considerably more studied ambiguity and wriggle room.

    On balance, this is probably a good thing. The next government will have to significantly increase spending on Social Care and the NHS and it would be nice if there was some left over for infrastructure spending.
    And this nonsense about zero deficit ! Which other country pursues moronic policy like that ? In the US, Trump is increasing the deficit.
    We should be running a surplus by now, as Germany has been doing for some considerable time. The horrendous debt built up as a result of Brown's policy errors and general incompetence is a millstone around our children's necks that will adversely affect their standard of living and significantly reduce our ability to respond to international turmoil in future.

    And Trump is an idiot. I thought you knew that.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725
    Almost everyone on here is happy macron has won handily, even if some are less confident of how much a success he will be - why some ranting, petty, hateful bitterness this morning conjuring hordes of disappointed neo fascists? Moments like these show the pathetic side of us only too vividly.

    Good day.
  • Options
    Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,060
    Roger said:

    felix said:

    Roger said:

    A big disappointment for Trump Farage and many posters on here but a great day for the French who would never choose the fascist however it was wrapped.

    Farage said yesterday that Le Pen would be much the best choice for Brexit which I'm afraid tells you all you need to know about the choice we have made.

    33% Le Pen and 33% abstentions. France remains a country with problems. A huge test for Macron to achieve the reforms France needs. Fortunately the likes of Farage never got anywhere near the electoral success needed to govern in the UK
    That's true. It wasn't just 67% who rejected fascism but many more who abstained.
    I disagree. An abstention (even one in person) says that one finds both options equally bad. It's not exactly a ringing endorsement that so many thought that Macron was no better than Le Pen.

    If we had a similar system in the U.K. and we had ended up with Nick Griffin against Ed Milliband I hope Ed would have been elected on a much larger percentage than Macron was.
  • Options
    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    kle4 said:

    Almost everyone on here is happy macron has won handily, even if some are less confident of how much a success he will be - why some ranting, petty, hateful bitterness this morning conjuring hordes of disappointed neo fascists? Moments like these show the pathetic side of us only too vividly.

    Good day.

    Indeed. - There appears to be an escapee from Broadmoor, running amuck on PB.
  • Options
    daodaodaodao Posts: 821
    kle4 said:

    Oh yeah, those three are totally the same. Get a grip. For a start, May has already welcomed macrons win.

    I did not suggest that they are the same. But there is now a big divide between the 3 major countries on the fringes of Europe (Russia, Turkey and the UK) and the EU, which is the only point that I was making. Of course May has publicly welcomed Macron's victory (not to do so would have been impolite), but he won't be a friend of the UK.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,920
    So following on from the dutch, the french also decide to plump for a pro-EU party/person that tends towards the centre.
    Looks like the Germans will make a sensible choice (Outside chance of Schauble but probably Merkel), though the Italians are on a coinflip to elect a party of loons...
  • Options
    daodaodaodao Posts: 821

    daodao said:

    Roger said:

    daodao said:

    The first loser....

    Will it be Putin, Erdogan or May? The authoritarian leaders of the 3 main countries on the fringes of Europe, who do not support the European vision, are unlikely to welcome Macron's victory.
    It would be nice to think the tide is turning but it's a bit early to tell. One spin off is likely to be the reinvigoration of the Remainers as we watch the new optimism spreading from accross the channel.
    I think we should wait until his unveils his program, and passes his first budget without the whole country grinding to a halt from strikes before we get to carried away. Sure, he looks good on TV, and talks a good line, but can he actually achieve anything.

    Running against MLP is one thing, she pretty much gets his vote out for him. I am interested in how he is going to attempt to get a good showing in the assembly without a local party machine to put in the shoe leather, canvaas his voters, deliver his leaflets and get his vote out.
    It is a victory for the EU vision and a defeat for isolationist authoritarian nationalism, as espoused by Chairman May and the UKIP-Tory party, despite their probable landslide victory on 8/6/17.
    Defeated by a landslide victory ?

    Liquid breakfast ?
    It is a defeat for isolationist authoritarian nationalism in France, but there is likely to be landslide victory for this vision in the UK on 8/6/17.
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited May 2017
    daodao said:

    Roger said:

    daodao said:

    The first loser....

    Will it be Putin, Erdogan or May? The authoritarian leaders of the 3 main countries on the fringes of Europe, who do not support the European vision, are unlikely to welcome Macron's victory.
    It would be nice to think the tide is turning but it's a bit early to tell. One spin off is likely to be the reinvigoration of the Remainers as we watch the new optimism spreading from accross the channel.
    I think we should wait until his unveils his program, and passes his first budget without the whole country grinding to a halt from strikes before we get to carried away. Sure, he looks good on TV, and talks a good line, but can he actually achieve anything.

    Running against MLP is one thing, she pretty much gets his vote out for him. I am interested in how he is going to attempt to get a good showing in the assembly without a local party machine to put in the shoe leather, canvaas his voters, deliver his leaflets and get his vote out.
    It is a victory for the EU vision and a defeat for isolationist authoritarian nationalism, as espoused by Chairman May and the UKIP-Tory party, despite their probable landslide victory on 8/6/17.
    I think you could have gone wider and included the US and Saudi Arabia Theresa May's new best friends. Again too early to tell but I wonder if this could be a shot in the arm for Corbyn and Farron?
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Fortunately, the post-debate reaction convinced me to switch from the 35-40 band and 40/45 band combination to the 30/35 and 35/40 (and to tip it here).

    I hope everyone took the opportunity of the free money available during the last two weeks on Betfair on Macron winning. Having him at 1.11or 1.12 so long was absurd (but very profitable for me).

    The next interesting markets on French politics are the next PM and the biggest party after the June elections.

    On the next PM market, there is very little activity on Betfair and the prices are currently bizarre (1.2 for T. mariani, a far-right MP when the centrist Bayrou is at 3.2 for example).

    The market on the legislative election is barely more active but at least the prices are more logical: you can back En marche at 1.84 and Republicans at 2.22. All others are no hopers anyway.



    Thanks very much for your tip, I followed you in to both these bands, but weighted to 30-35%.

    I hope that you can find time to write a header before the Assembly elections.

    Tipster of the Year, in my eyes!
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Today pb will have posts full of CREAM:

    Can't Remember Ever Admiring Marine
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,270
    edited May 2017
    kle4 said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    John The Baptist Marxist has a few problems....

    John McDonnell faces a Labour revolt to unseat him as shadow chancellor after he said there was “a lot to learn” from Karl Marx's Das Kapital.

    Shadow cabinet sources said Jeremy Corbyn’s right-hand man, who has described himself in the past as an “unapologetic Marxist”, had done nothing to help Labour’s cause with a month to go to the general election.

    And while they said it was too late to mount a challenge to Mr McDonnell or Mr Corbyn before the June 8 ballot, there will be “no holding back” when Labour MPs come back to Parliament after the election.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/07/john-mcdonnell-refuses-rule-60-top-tax-rate-suggests-lot-learn/

    Have the Tories ruled out 60p tax rate ? For anybody ?
    Parties generally only rule out things that people think they might do.
    OK. In that case, will they increase NIC on the tax dodgers self-employed ?
    Surely one of the factors in May's decision to go for an early GE was the reaction to the budget and the NI rise? She will want as few concrete promises as possible apart from those needed to force the HoL not to block her pet projects.

    If she does tie her hands on tax rises I will be disappointed, as the current system desperately needs simplifying which will be impossible without some rates going up even if the overall effect is revenue neutral.
    Normally I'd say she'd be forced to be specific at some point, but she's so far ahead perhaps she can get away with it, and given how quickly she changed her tune and her fans threw Hammond under the bus, I'd agree we will see few concrete promises.
    Despite all the justified criticism of Brown, he was Osborne's tutor, not just for seeing everything through the prism of politics but also for a fondess for complicated new schemes to dump on top of the existing financial framework. Simplification would be a great improvement - the trouble of course is that simplifying things is much more difficult - there is always the risk of unintended consequences, and simplification usually produces losers who don't like it (and can only be bought off with renewed complexity).

    We can only hope Hammond (for surely it will be he) doesnt try and learn from Brown and Obso.

    The unsung hero for getting things both simplified and improved was the former LibDem pensions minister Steve Webb.
  • Options
    Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,060
    surbiton said:

    DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    surbiton said:

    -60-top-tax-rate-suggests-lot-learn/

    The Tories will fiddle about with NI, maybe even integrate it with Income Tax, and curtail reliefs such as those on pension contributions, to raise the money the next government will need. They won't be as blatant (honest) as raising a headline rate; instead we are in for five years of stealth taxes.
    I think that is right. We have had 7 years of stealth taxes on the better off which has been the main driving force towards reducing the deficit. The irony is that in practice the Tories have been quite aggressive about this but still feel able to abuse Labour about "tax bombshells".

    I think Hammond will try hard to avoid the kinds of commitments that caused him such problems with the NI increases. Cameron felt the need to have sharp and hard commitments on these issues because the election was so close. He was right of course in that he only got a small and slightly unexpected majority. I think this time around there will be considerably more studied ambiguity and wriggle room.

    On balance, this is probably a good thing. The next government will have to significantly increase spending on Social Care and the NHS and it would be nice if there was some left over for infrastructure spending.
    And this nonsense about zero deficit ! Which other country pursues moronic policy like that ? In the US, Trump is increasing the deficit.
    Is the fact that Trump is doing really an endorsement?
    With interest rates at historic lows we currently spend more on interest than we do on education.
  • Options
    AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    What a lot of bitterness here today after most people got what they wanted last night. A few people need to take a deep breath and get out in the sun a little more. Since the rain has stopped here, I intend to do just that and hope that people have got a bit more of a grip later.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,191

    Today pb will have posts full of CREAM:

    Can't Remember Ever Admiring Marine

    At least they're not saying 'send the Marines'.

    Have a good day everyone.
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    DavidL said:

    surbiton said:

    DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    surbiton said:

    -60-top-tax-rate-suggests-lot-learn/

    The Tories will fiddle about with NI, maybe even integrate it with Income Tax, and curtail reliefs such as those on pension contributions, to raise the money the next government will need. They won't be as blatant (honest) as raising a headline rate; instead we are in for five years of stealth taxes.
    I think that is right. We have had 7 years of stealth taxes on the better off which has been the main driving force towards reducing the deficit. The irony is that in practice the Tories have been quite aggressive about this but still feel able to abuse Labour about "tax bombshells".

    I think Hammond will try hard to avoid the kinds of commitments that caused him such problems with the NI increases. Cameron felt the need to have sharp and hard commitments on these issues because the election was so close. He was right of course in that he only got a small and slightly unexpected majority. I think this time around there will be considerably more studied ambiguity and wriggle room.

    On balance, this is probably a good thing. The next government will have to significantly increase spending on Social Care and the NHS and it would be nice if there was some left over for infrastructure spending.
    And this nonsense about zero deficit ! Which other country pursues moronic policy like that ? In the US, Trump is increasing the deficit.
    We should be running a surplus by now, as Germany has been doing for some considerable time. The horrendous debt built up as a result of Brown's policy errors and general incompetence is a millstone around our children's necks that will adversely affect their standard of living and significantly reduce our ability to respond to international turmoil in future.

    And Trump is an idiot. I thought you knew that.
    Trump is a Republican and, as Cheney put it: Reagan showed that deficits don't matter. Meanwhile, back in Britain, it was Gordon Brown paying off Tory debt and George Osborne increasing it.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,942
    kle4 said:

    Almost everyone on here is happy macron has won handily, even if some are less confident of how much a success he will be - why some ranting, petty, hateful bitterness this morning conjuring hordes of disappointed neo fascists? Moments like these show the pathetic side of us only too vividly.

    Good day.

    Conjuring up (or in the Ffrench case overplaying) imagined enemies seems to be the new coping mechanism of the Remainer Left...
  • Options
    Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,060
    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    John The Baptist Marxist has a few problems....

    John McDonnell faces a Labour revolt to unseat him as shadow chancellor after he said there was “a lot to learn” from Karl Marx's Das Kapital.

    Shadow cabinet sources said Jeremy Corbyn’s right-hand man, who has described himself in the past as an “unapologetic Marxist”, had done nothing to help Labour’s cause with a month to go to the general election.

    And while they said it was too late to mount a challenge to Mr McDonnell or Mr Corbyn before the June 8 ballot, there will be “no holding back” when Labour MPs come back to Parliament after the election.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/07/john-mcdonnell-refuses-rule-60-top-tax-rate-suggests-lot-learn/

    Have the Tories ruled out 60p tax rate ? For anybody ?
    Parties generally only rule out things that people think they might do.
    OK. In that case, will they increase NIC on the tax dodgers self-employed ?
    Surely one of the factors in May's decision to go for an early GE was the reaction to the budget and the NI rise? She will want as few concrete promises as possible apart from those needed to force the HoL not to block her pet projects.

    If she does tie her hands on tax rises I will be disappointed, as the current system desperately needs simplifying which will be impossible without some rates going up even if the overall effect is revenue neutral.
    But it is OK to ask silly questions at Labour ? The Labour leaders today are so stupid that they cannot come back with the two words: will they ?
    With current polling, yes.
    Besides, each party has different weaknesses. I do expect some tough questions for May on the NHS which might result in manifesto promises. I don't expect many tough questions for Corbyn on what his plans for further privatisation of the NHS are...
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    DavidL said:

    surbiton said:

    DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    surbiton said:

    -60-top-tax-rate-suggests-lot-learn/

    The Tories will fiddle about with NI, maybe even integrate it with Income Tax, and curtail reliefs such as those on pension contributions, to raise the money the next government will need. They won't be as blatant (honest) as raising a headline rate; instead we are in for five years of stealth taxes.
    I think that is right. We have had 7 years of stealth taxes on the better off which has been the main driving force towards reducing the deficit. The irony is that in practice the Tories have been quite aggressive about this but still feel able to abuse Labour about "tax bombshells".

    I think Hammond will try hard to avoid the kinds of commitments that caused him such problems with the NI increases. Cameron felt the need to have sharp and hard commitments on these issues because the election was so close. He was right of course in that he only got a small and slightly unexpected majority. I think this time around there will be considerably more studied ambiguity and wriggle room.

    On balance, this is probably a good thing. The next government will have to significantly increase spending on Social Care and the NHS and it would be nice if there was some left over for infrastructure spending.
    And this nonsense about zero deficit ! Which other country pursues moronic policy like that ? In the US, Trump is increasing the deficit.
    We should be running a surplus by now, as Germany has been doing for some considerable time. The horrendous debt built up as a result of Brown's policy errors and general incompetence is a millstone around our children's necks that will adversely affect their standard of living and significantly reduce our ability to respond to international turmoil in future.

    And Trump is an idiot. I thought you knew that.
    Trump is a Republican and, as Cheney put it: Reagan showed that deficits don't matter. Meanwhile, back in Britain, it was Gordon Brown paying off Tory debt and George Osborne increasing it.
    Only someone in denial could post something like that. Brown and Darling ran up an annual and ongoing deficit of 156 billion . How do you think Osborne could have wiped it out in one go.

    Answers on a postcard to the usual address
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    kle4 said:

    Almost everyone on here is happy macron has won handily, even if some are less confident of how much a success he will be - why some ranting, petty, hateful bitterness this morning conjuring hordes of disappointed neo fascists? Moments like these show the pathetic side of us only too vividly.

    Good day.

    The blessed sponge of Lethe is getting saturated by this post. Leavers for Fascists were numerous enough last week.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,920
    Ladbrokes must have had a good laugh at this one:

    https://twitter.com/Wollygogg/status/861302696686616578
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited May 2017

    ://twitter.com/epkaufm/status/861348903270195200

    FN remains very transfer unfriendly. Neither Melenchon or right wing parties transferred in any great numbers. Contrary to the view of the PB blackshirts.

    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/861330929977098240
  • Options
    numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 5,449
    Roger said:

    daodao said:

    Roger said:

    daodao said:

    The first loser....

    Will it be Putin, Erdogan or May? The authoritarian leaders of the 3 main countries on the fringes of Europe, who do not support the European vision, are unlikely to welcome Macron's victory.
    It would be nice to think the tide is turning but it's a bit early to tell. One spin off is likely to be the reinvigoration of the Remainers as we watch the new optimism spreading from accross the channel.
    I think we should wait until his unveils his program, and passes his first budget without the whole country grinding to a halt from strikes before we get to carried away. Sure, he looks good on TV, and talks a good line, but can he actually achieve anything.

    Running against MLP is one thing, she pretty much gets his vote out for him. I am interested in how he is going to attempt to get a good showing in the assembly without a local party machine to put in the shoe leather, canvaas his voters, deliver his leaflets and get his vote out.
    It is a victory for the EU vision and a defeat for isolationist authoritarian nationalism, as espoused by Chairman May and the UKIP-Tory party, despite their probable landslide victory on 8/6/17.
    I think you could have gone wider and included the US and Saudi Arabia Theresa May's new best friends. Again too early to tell but I wonder if this could be a shot in the arm for Corbyn and Farron?
    Why would it be? In the case of Corbyn, he's hardly the most pro-European leader out there!

    I'd also caution against thinking that an election result in France is going to have much impact on sentiment towards the EU in Britain. The idea that the British people are going to awake from their slumber and march headlong into the ranks of the European federalists is a pipe dream. That sentiment has never widely been held in Britain - even in the days of Blair, whose was possibly the most pro-European government since Heath's, he could not get the Euro introduced.

    That's not to say that I'm disappointed by the result. I am relieved that the FN lost. Moreover, it is not in any of our interests to have a Europe collapsing in front of our eyes. But people are too hasty to ascribe the fact that France just rejected a far-right leader as leading to some kind of eruption of pro-EU sentiment in Britain.
  • Options
    Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,060

    DavidL said:

    surbiton said:

    DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    surbiton said:

    -60-top-tax-rate-suggests-lot-learn/

    The Tories will fiddle about with NI, maybe even integrate it with Income Tax, and curtail reliefs such as those on pension contributions, to raise the money the next government will need. They won't be as blatant (honest) as raising a headline rate; instead we are in for five years of stealth taxes.
    I think that is right. We have had 7 years of stealth taxes on the better off which has been the main driving force towards reducing the deficit. The irony is that in practice the Tories have been quite aggressive about this but still feel able to abuse Labour about "tax bombshells".

    I think Hammond will try hard to avoid the kinds of commitments that caused him such problems with the NI increases. Cameron felt the need to have sharp and hard commitments on these issues because the election was so close. He was right of course in that he only got a small and slightly unexpected majority. I think this time around there will be considerably more studied ambiguity and wriggle room.

    On balance, this is probably a good thing. The next government will have to significantly increase spending on Social Care and the NHS and it would be nice if there was some left over for infrastructure spending.
    And this nonsense about zero deficit ! Which other country pursues moronic policy like that ? In the US, Trump is increasing the deficit.
    We should be running a surplus by now, as Germany has been doing for some considerable time. The horrendous debt built up as a result of Brown's policy errors and general incompetence is a millstone around our children's necks that will adversely affect their standard of living and significantly reduce our ability to respond to international turmoil in future.

    And Trump is an idiot. I thought you knew that.
    Trump is a Republican and, as Cheney put it: Reagan showed that deficits don't matter. Meanwhile, back in Britain, it was Gordon Brown paying off Tory debt and George Osborne increasing it.
    Good luck selling that message on the doorstep.
    The public know that Labour increase spending and the Conservatives reduce it. Whether or not it is true (and its truth depends on careful selection of definitions and start dates, an argument I'm not going to get into in this post) doesn't really matter.
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    kle4 said:

    Almost everyone on here is happy macron has won handily, even if some are less confident of how much a success he will be - why some ranting, petty, hateful bitterness this morning conjuring hordes of disappointed neo fascists? Moments like these show the pathetic side of us only too vividly.

    Good day.

    The blessed sponge of Lethe is getting saturated by this post. Leavers for Fascists were numerous enough last week.
    I can think of only one outright supporter from last week - plus a few worried about losing bets. Your analysis for the GE is spot on. Anything related to Brexit is rather less so sadly.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,270
    edited May 2017

    Roger said:

    daodao said:

    Roger said:

    daodao said:

    The first loser....

    y.
    It would be nice to think the tide is turning but it's a bit early to tell. One spin off is likely to be the reinvigoration of the Remainers.
    I think we should wait until his unveils his program, and passes his first budget without the whole country grinding to a halt from strikes before we get to carried away. Sure, he looks good on TV, and talks a good line, but can he actually achieve anything.

    Running against MLP is one thing, she pretty much gets his vote out for him. I am interested in how he is going to attempt to get a good showing in the assembly without a local party machine to put in the shoe leather, canvaas his voters, deliver his leaflets and get his vote out.
    It is a victory for the EU vision and a defeat for isolationist authoritarian nationalism, as espoused by Chairman May and the UKIP-Tory party, despite their probable landslide victory on 8/6/17.
    I think you could have gone wider and included the US and Saudi Arabia Theresa May's new best friends. Again too early to tell but I wonder if this could be a shot in the arm for Corbyn and Farron?
    Why would it be? In the case of Corbyn, he's hardly the most pro-European leader out there!

    I'd also caution against thinking that an election result in France is going to have much impact on sentiment towards the EU in Britain. The idea that the British people are going to awake from their slumber and march headlong into the ranks of the European federalists is a pipe dream. That sentiment has never widely been held in Britain - even in the days of Blair, whose was possibly the most pro-European government since Heath's, he could not get the Euro introduced.

    That's not to say that I'm disappointed by the result. I am relieved that the FN lost. Moreover, it is not in any of our interests to have a Europe collapsing in front of our eyes. But people are too hasty to ascribe the fact that France just rejected a far-right leader as leading to some kind of eruption of pro-EU sentiment in Britain.
    One can nevertheless hope that seeing so many Brexiters, from Farage downwards, hoping for the LePen victory that the French had the good sense to turn away from might prompt a bit of self reflection.

    Whilst we often observe that the French system has similarities with AV, the biggest difference is the period of reflection (and realignment) that it allows between vote one and vote two.

    Q for the experts - am I right that the French still have a second vote even if the front runner polls over 50% in the first? (if so, another diff w AV)
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,832

    Roger said:

    daodao said:

    Roger said:

    daodao said:

    The first loser....

    Will it be Putin, Erdogan or May? The authoritarian leaders of the 3 main countries on the fringes of Europe, who do not support the European vision, are unlikely to welcome Macron's victory.
    It would be nice to think the tide is turning but it's a bit early to tell. One spin off is likely to be the reinvigoration of the Remainers as we watch the new optimism spreading from accross the channel.
    I think we should wait until his unveils his program, and passes his first budget without the whole country grinding to a halt from strikes before we get to carried away. Sure, he looks good on TV, and talks a good line, but can he actually achieve anything.

    Running against MLP is one thing, she pretty much gets his vote out for him. I am interested in how he is going to attempt to get a good showing in the assembly without a local party machine to put in the shoe leather, canvaas his voters, deliver his leaflets and get his vote out.
    It is a victory for the EU vision and a defeat for isolationist authoritarian nationalism, as espoused by Chairman May and the UKIP-Tory party, despite their probable landslide victory on 8/6/17.
    I think you could have gone wider and included the US and Saudi Arabia Theresa May's new best friends. Again too early to tell but I wonder if this could be a shot in the arm for Corbyn and Farron?
    Why would it be? In the case of Corbyn, he's hardly the most pro-European leader out there!

    I'd also caution against thinking that an election result in France is going to have much impact on sentiment towards the EU in Britain. The idea that the British people are going to awake from their slumber and march headlong into the ranks of the European federalists is a pipe dream. That sentiment has never widely been held in Britain - even in the days of Blair, whose was possibly the most pro-European government since Heath's, he could not get the Euro introduced.

    That's not to say that I'm disappointed by the result. I am relieved that the FN lost. Moreover, it is not in any of our interests to have a Europe collapsing in front of our eyes. But people are too hasty to ascribe the fact that France just rejected a far-right leader as leading to some kind of eruption of pro-EU sentiment in Britain.
    Broadly speaking, about 70% of the UK electorate is eurosceptic. They either want out of the EU, or a big reduction in its powers.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,203
    Roger said:

    daodao said:

    Roger said:

    daodao said:

    The first loser....

    Will it be Putin, Erdogan or May? The authoritarian leaders of the 3 main countries on the fringes of Europe, who do not support the European vision, are unlikely to welcome Macron's victory.
    It would be nice to think the tide is turning but it's a bit early to tell. One spin off is likely to be the reinvigoration of the Remainers as we watch the new optimism spreading from accross the channel.
    I think we should wait until his unveils his program, and passes his first budget without the whole country grinding to a halt from strikes before we get to carried away. Sure, he looks good on TV, and talks a good line, but can he actually achieve anything.

    Running against MLP is one thing, she pretty much gets his vote out for him. I am interested in how he is going to attempt to get a good showing in the assembly without a local party machine to put in the shoe leather, canvaas his voters, deliver his leaflets and get his vote out.
    It is a victory for the EU vision and a defeat for isolationist authoritarian nationalism, as espoused by Chairman May and the UKIP-Tory party, despite their probable landslide victory on 8/6/17.
    I think you could have gone wider and included the US and Saudi Arabia Theresa May's new best friends. Again too early to tell but I wonder if this could be a shot in the arm for Corbyn and Farron?
    I despise Saudi Arabia. But they are not May's "new" best friends. Every single British government has cosied up to them, regardless of political affiliation.

    And you should read up on how France, even more than Britain, cosies up to the Middle Eastern world, including every single one of their despotic and hateful regimes. France - just as much as Britain - has mislaid its moral compass when it comes to foreign affairs. That's realpolitik for you.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    IanB2 said:

    Roger said:

    daodao said:



    I think we should wait until his unveils his program, and passes his first budget without the whole country grinding to a halt from strikes before we get to carried away. Sure, he looks good on TV, and talks a good line, but can he actually achieve anything.

    Running against MLP is one thing, she pretty much gets his vote out for him. I am interested in how he is going to attempt to get a good showing in the assembly without a local party machine to put in the shoe leather, canvaas his voters, deliver his leaflets and get his vote out.

    It is a victory for the EU vision and a defeat for isolationist authoritarian nationalism, as espoused by Chairman May and the UKIP-Tory party, despite their probable landslide victory on 8/6/17.
    I think you could have gone wider and included the US and Saudi Arabia Theresa May's new best friends. Again too early to tell but I wonder if this could be a shot in the arm for Corbyn and Farron?
    Why would it be? In the case of Corbyn, he's hardly the most pro-European leader out there!

    I'd also caution against thinking that an election result in France is going to have much impact on sentiment towards the EU in Britain. The idea that the British people are going to awake from their slumber and march headlong into the ranks of the European federalists is a pipe dream. That sentiment has never widely been held in Britain - even in the days of Blair, whose was possibly the most pro-European government since Heath's, he could not get the Euro introduced.

    That's not to say that I'm disappointed by the result. I am relieved that the FN lost. Moreover, it is not in any of our interests to have a Europe collapsing in front of our eyes. But people are too hasty to ascribe the fact that France just rejected a far-right leader as leading to some kind of eruption of pro-EU sentiment in Britain.
    One can nevertheless hope that seeing so many Brexiters, from Farage downwards, hoping for the LePen victory that the French had the good sense to turn away from might prompt a bit of self reflection.

    Whilst we often observe that the French system has similarities with AV, the biggest difference is the period of reflection (and realignment) that it allows between vote one and vote two.
    Apparently it's bad form to remind Leavers that those who expressed a preference overwhelmingly backed Marine Le Pen as best for Britain.

    Leave means never having to say you're sorry.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,892
    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    John The Baptist Marxist has a few problems....

    John McDonnell faces a Labour revolt to unseat him as shadow chancellor after he said there was “a lot to learn” from Karl Marx's Das Kapital.

    Shadow cabinet sources said Jeremy Corbyn’s right-hand man, who has described himself in the past as an “unapologetic Marxist”, had done nothing to help Labour’s cause with a month to go to the general election.

    And while they said it was too late to mount a challenge to Mr McDonnell or Mr Corbyn before the June 8 ballot, there will be “no holding back” when Labour MPs come back to Parliament after the election.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/07/john-mcdonnell-refuses-rule-60-top-tax-rate-suggests-lot-learn/

    Have the Tories ruled out 60p tax rate ? For anybody ?
    Parties generally only rule out things that people think they might do.
    OK. In that case, will they increase NIC on the tax dodgers self-employed ?
    There's a good case to be made for reform of the way income tax and NICs interact, especially with regard to the self-employed, small business owner and casual work - forms of employment which are increasing in number in recent years. There needs to be a balance between the risks taken and taxes paid by various forms of employment.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,980
    Good morning, my fellow Europeans.

    Slightly surprised by the margin of the victory, but huzzah for the many persons who tipped Macron (I got on at 13, it's my first green leadership or presidential result).
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,920
    felix said:

    kle4 said:

    Almost everyone on here is happy macron has won handily, even if some are less confident of how much a success he will be - why some ranting, petty, hateful bitterness this morning conjuring hordes of disappointed neo fascists? Moments like these show the pathetic side of us only too vividly.

    Good day.

    The blessed sponge of Lethe is getting saturated by this post. Leavers for Fascists were numerous enough last week.
    I can think of only one outright supporter from last week - plus a few worried about losing bets. Your analysis for the GE is spot on. Anything related to Brexit is rather less so sadly.
    After you've done your nuts backing Le Pen...

    https://twitter.com/Wollygogg/status/861476569071710208
  • Options
    Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,060

    kle4 said:

    Almost everyone on here is happy macron has won handily, even if some are less confident of how much a success he will be - why some ranting, petty, hateful bitterness this morning conjuring hordes of disappointed neo fascists? Moments like these show the pathetic side of us only too vividly.

    Good day.

    The blessed sponge of Lethe is getting saturated by this post. Leavers for Fascists were numerous enough last week.
    There will have been some with money on it, some who felt that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend", and, yes, a small number who may have wanted her to win. But I think numerous is a bit of an exaggeration.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,270
    edited May 2017
    Pulpstar said:

    Ladbrokes must have had a good laugh at this one:

    https://twitter.com/Wollygogg/status/861302696686616578

    Given the username he has chosen I am not sure how anyone could know when it was the child supposedly using his account anyway?
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,980
    Mr. Pulpstar, I'll never understand people who bet money they can't afford to lose (especially in elections they appear not to understand).

    Here, we have people who bet bottle tops all the way to those who bet thousands, with many in between. Anyone who's risking money they can't afford to lose is a moron.
  • Options
    prh47bridgeprh47bridge Posts: 441
    surbiton said:

    DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    surbiton said:

    -60-top-tax-rate-suggests-lot-learn/

    The Tories will fiddle about with NI, maybe even integrate it with Income Tax, and curtail reliefs such as those on pension contributions, to raise the money the next government will need. They won't be as blatant (honest) as raising a headline rate; instead we are in for five years of stealth taxes.
    I think that is right. We have had 7 years of stealth taxes on the better off which has been the main driving force towards reducing the deficit. The irony is that in practice the Tories have been quite aggressive about this but still feel able to abuse Labour about "tax bombshells".

    I think Hammond will try hard to avoid the kinds of commitments that caused him such problems with the NI increases. Cameron felt the need to have sharp and hard commitments on these issues because the election was so close. He was right of course in that he only got a small and slightly unexpected majority. I think this time around there will be considerably more studied ambiguity and wriggle room.

    On balance, this is probably a good thing. The next government will have to significantly increase spending on Social Care and the NHS and it would be nice if there was some left over for infrastructure spending.
    And this nonsense about zero deficit ! Which other country pursues moronic policy like that ? In the US, Trump is increasing the deficit.
    Germany, Norway, Iceland, New Zealand, Switzerland, Singapore and around 25 other countries. I wish you luck persuading them that their policy is moronic.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    kle4 said:

    Almost everyone on here is happy macron has won handily, even if some are less confident of how much a success he will be - why some ranting, petty, hateful bitterness this morning conjuring hordes of disappointed neo fascists? Moments like these show the pathetic side of us only too vividly.

    Good day.

    The blessed sponge of Lethe is getting saturated by this post. Leavers for Fascists were numerous enough last week.
    There will have been some with money on it, some who felt that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend", and, yes, a small number who may have wanted her to win. But I think numerous is a bit of an exaggeration.
    According to YouGov, Leavers who expressed a preference broke more than 80% for Marine Le Pen as best for Britain. Even discounting those who didn't, that's more than 6 million voters.

    Leavers need to take a good hard look around themselves and start wondering about priorities.
  • Options
    Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,060

    ://twitter.com/epkaufm/status/861348903270195200

    FN remains very transfer unfriendly. Neither Melenchon or right wing parties transferred in any great numbers. Contrary to the view of the PB blackshirts.

    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/861330929977098240
    I find charts like this fascinating. It's the small lines that hide interesting stories: who swaps from Le Pen to Macron (or vice versa) between rounds? Why?
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    edited May 2017
    British politics feels more broken than ever this morning. We're going to be left behind as we wallow in the Brexit swamp.

    Seemingly nothing can be done.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,971
    Sandpit said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    John The Baptist Marxist has a few problems....

    John McDonnell faces a Labour revolt to unseat him as shadow chancellor after he said there was “a lot to learn” from Karl Marx's Das Kapital.

    Shadow cabinet sources said Jeremy Corbyn’s right-hand man, who has described himself in the past as an “unapologetic Marxist”, had done nothing to help Labour’s cause with a month to go to the general election.

    And while they said it was too late to mount a challenge to Mr McDonnell or Mr Corbyn before the June 8 ballot, there will be “no holding back” when Labour MPs come back to Parliament after the election.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/07/john-mcdonnell-refuses-rule-60-top-tax-rate-suggests-lot-learn/

    Have the Tories ruled out 60p tax rate ? For anybody ?
    Parties generally only rule out things that people think they might do.
    OK. In that case, will they increase NIC on the tax dodgers self-employed ?
    There's a good case to be made for reform of the way income tax and NICs interact, especially with regard to the self-employed, small business owner and casual work - forms of employment which are increasing in number in recent years. There needs to be a balance between the risks taken and taxes paid by various forms of employment.
    The issue with NICs is not the employee side of them but the hidden employers side of them.

    Having had multiple conversations with HMRC regarding IR35 over the years their pet hate is the loss of those employers NIC contributions - the dividend tax removed most of the rest of the tax differential between limited company contractors and employment...
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,189

    kle4 said:

    Almost everyone on here is happy macron has won handily, even if some are less confident of how much a success he will be - why some ranting, petty, hateful bitterness this morning conjuring hordes of disappointed neo fascists? Moments like these show the pathetic side of us only too vividly.

    Good day.

    The blessed sponge of Lethe is getting saturated by this post. Leavers for Fascists were numerous enough last week.
    There will have been some with money on it, some who felt that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend", and, yes, a small number who may have wanted her to win. But I think numerous is a bit of an exaggeration.
    According to YouGov, Leavers who expressed a preference broke more than 80% for Marine Le Pen as best for Britain. Even discounting those who didn't, that's more than 6 million voters.

    Leavers need to take a good hard look around themselves and start wondering about priorities.
    I voted Leave, I backed Macron @ 16-1.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,270

    ://twitter.com/epkaufm/status/861348903270195200

    FN remains very transfer unfriendly. Neither Melenchon or right wing parties transferred in any great numbers. Contrary to the view of the PB blackshirts.

    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/861330929977098240
    I find charts like this fascinating. It's the small lines that hide interesting stories: who swaps from Le Pen to Macron (or vice versa) between rounds? Why?
    Also interesting that the first round abstainers who came out for the final vote appear to have broken in a similar 2:1 ratio for Macron. It's been my view for some time that most of the differential turnout theories put forward about elections are bogus.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited May 2017

    Roger said:

    daodao said:

    Roger said:

    daodao said:

    The first loser....

    Will it be Putin, Erdogan or May? The authoritarian leaders of the 3 main countries on the fringes of Europe, who do not support the European vision, are unlikely to welcome Macron's victory.
    It would be nice to think the tide is turning but it's a bit early to tell. One spin off is likely to be the reinvigoration of the Remainers as we watch the new optimism spreading from accross the channel.
    I think we should wait until his unveils his program, and passes his first budget without the whole country grinding to a halt from strikes before we get to carried away. Sure, he looks good on TV, and talks a good line, but can he actually achieve anything.

    Running against MLP is one thing, she pretty much gets his vote out for him. I am interested in how he is going to attempt to get a good showing in the assembly without a local party machine to put in the shoe leather, canvaas his voters, deliver his leaflets and get his vote out.
    It is a victory for the EU vision and a defeat for isolationist authoritarian nationalism, as espoused by Chairman May and the UKIP-Tory party, despite their probable landslide victory on 8/6/17.
    I think you could have gone wider and included the US and Saudi Arabia Theresa May's new best friends. Again too early to tell but I wonder if this could be a shot in the arm for Corbyn and Farron?
    Why would it be? In the case of Corbyn, he's hardly the most pro-European leader out there!

    I'd also caution against thinking that an election result in France is going to have much impact on sentiment towards the EU in Britain. The idea that the British people are going to awake from their slumber and march headlong into the ranks of the European federalists is a pipe dream. That sentiment has never widely been held in Britain - even in the days of Blair, whose was possibly the most pro-European government since Heath's, he could not get the Euro introduced.

    That's not to say that I'm disappointed by the result. I am relieved that the FN lost. Moreover, it is not in any of our interests to have a Europe collapsing in front of our eyes. But people are too hasty to ascribe the fact that France just rejected a far-right leader as leading to some kind of eruption of pro-EU sentiment in Britain.
    Optimism is contagious.

    Watching the jubilance in France contrasting with Theresa May and her team scabbling around looking for friends like pigs in search of truffles is bound to have an effect.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    https://twitter.com/election_data/status/861474032469889024

    Given the absence of hype, I assume it's less sensational than last time.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    edited May 2017
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    daodao said:

    Roger said:

    daodao said:

    The first loser....

    Will it be Putin, Erdogan or May? The authoritarian leaders of the 3 main countries on the fringes of Europe, who do not support the European vision, are unlikely to welcome Macron's victory.
    It would be nice to think the tide is turning but it's a bit early to tell. One spin off is likely to be the reinvigoration of the Remainers as we watch the new optimism spreading from accross the channel.
    I think we should wait until his unveils his program, and passes his first budget without the whole country grinding to a halt from strikes before we get to carried away. Sure, he looks good on TV, and talks a good line, but can he actually achieve anything.

    Running against MLP is one thing, she pretty much gets his vote out for him. I am interested in how he is going to attempt to get a good showing in the assembly without a local party machine to put in the shoe leather, canvaas his voters, deliver his leaflets and get his vote out.
    It is a victory for the EU vision and a defeat for isolationist authoritarian nationalism, as espoused by Chairman May and the UKIP-Tory party, despite their probable landslide victory on 8/6/17.
    I think you could have gone wider and included the US and Saudi Arabia Theresa May's new best friends. Again too early to tell but I wonder if this could be a shot in the arm for Corbyn and Farron?
    Why would it be? In the case of Corbyn, he's hardly the most pro-European leader out there!

    I'd also caution against thinking that an election result in France is going to have much impact on sentiment towards the EU in Britain. The idea that the British people are going to awake from their slumber and march headlong into the ranks of the European federalists is a pipe dream. That sentiment has never widely been held in Britain - even in the days of Blair, whose was possibly the most pro-European government since Heath's, he could not get the Euro introduced.

    That's not to say that I'm disappointed by the result. I am relieved that the FN lost. Moreover, it is not in any of our interests to have a Europe collapsing in front of our eyes. But people are too hasty to ascribe the fact that France just rejected a far-right leader as leading to some kind of eruption of pro-EU sentiment in Britain.
    Optimism is contagious.

    Watching the jubilance in France contrasting with Theresa May and her gang scabbling around looking for friends like pigs in search of truffles is bound to have an effect.
    Our politics looks squalid and backward looking today. Depressing.
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    numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 5,449
    edited May 2017
    IanB2:
    I think if the candidate breaks 50%, no runoff is held.

    All I'm saying is that it's difficult to extrapolate trends in France into trends in the UK. Both countries have fundamentally different cultures, national senses of identity and outlooks. I remember when Hollande (remember him?) won there was much made of the fact that this could lead to a renaissance for the centre-left and a rejection of austerity in Britain. That didn't happen. But what I do hope it does is continue to make Europe aware of the threat from the far right (albeit a threat that has thankfully not materialised in any gaining of power yet) and for European leaders to sit up and try and understand why this is happening.
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