Chancellor Osborne in October 2015(?) announced changes in stamp duty for landlords six months in advance. This caused a noticable spike in house prices for those six months. Ths was an unforced error that was entirely predictable, as the exact same mistake had been made by Chancellor Nigel Lawson in 1987(?).
Osborne is also responsible for the misbegotten and various "Help To Buy" schemes, which by pumping money into a market with inflexible supply, causes nothing but inflation.
Both of these are mistakes which somebody who claims to be a) an adult and b) a Conservative should not be making. But he did them and for some unfathomable reason nobody has punched him repeatedly in the face.
Chancellor Osborne in October 2015(?) announced changes in stamp duty for landlords six months in advance. This caused a noticable spike in house prices for those six months. Ths was an unforced error that was entirely predictable, as the exact same mistake had been made by Chancellor Nigel Lawson in 1987(?).
Osborne is also responsible for the misbegotten and various "Help To Buy" schemes, which by pumping money into a market with inflexible supply, causes nothing but inflation.
Both of these are mistakes which somebody who claims to be a) an adult and b) a Conservative should not be making. But he did them and for some unfathomable reason nobody has punched him repeatedly in the face.
The man is utterly incompetent
We actually agree on something!
I shall immediately re-examine my argument to see where I went wrong...
Sitting on the train at Kings X after a most enjoyable PB meet up. Thanks to @Mortimer for organising and mega thanks to @GeoffM for putting some money behind the bar.
The idea this can be reversed, now, is absolutely insane. It would take a massive massive climbdown from both sides.
It would take something cataclysmic, when the fact is even a terrible outcome for both sides will not, in the immediacy, be so terrible as to make public opinion as to give the politicians on all sides the will to make such a massive climbdown.
In Brussels at the moment (discussion on animal experiment regulations). The Macron/Valls story leading the French-speaking news but A50 is second - just a few clips, though, and factual summaries of the difficult issues ahead. Macron was asked his view - said blandly (as is his wont) that the task was not to punish Britain but to benefit Europe. My favourite channel Euronews (no irritating ego-newscasters, and much broader coverage than the BBC or Sky) interviewed various Brits in Germany and EU citizens in Britain worried about their status. But it's all being treated as a fairly routine story, presumably because it's been expected for months.
Sitting on the train at Kings X after a most enjoyable PB meet up. Thanks to @Mortimer for organising and mega thanks to @GeoffM for putting some money behind the bar.
Yes great fun. Many thanks Mortimer. And GeorrM, thanks, your request was honoured.
Chancellor Osborne in October 2015(?) announced changes in stamp duty for landlords six months in advance. This caused a noticable spike in house prices for those six months. Ths was an unforced error that was entirely predictable, as the exact same mistake had been made by Chancellor Nigel Lawson in 1987(?).
Osborne is also responsible for the misbegotten and various "Help To Buy" schemes, which by pumping money into a market with inflexible supply, causes nothing but inflation.
Both of these are mistakes which somebody who claims to be a) an adult and b) a Conservative should not be making. But he did them and for some unfathomable reason nobody has punched him repeatedly in the face.
The man is utterly incompetent
Yeah, I'm a rightwinger, but the idea Osborne is some political genius is just dim. Boringly idiotic.
He's a fairly clever, very well educated posho. There's a lot of them. Trouble is, they often lack common sense, tactical nous, innate smarts, and vital cunning. And they fatally overrate themselves, thanks to social background.
e.g. David bloody Cameron
I'd have been a better PM than Cameron, and I'm a frothing, oversexed, functional alcoholic thriller writer who went to Aylestone Comprehensive.
To be clear Mike isn't saying that Osborne is awesome. He is just saying he is better than Dickie Davis and Dr Fox. This is not hard.
Chancellor Osborne in October 2015(?) announced changes in stamp duty for landlords six months in advance. This caused a noticable spike in house prices for those six months. Ths was an unforced error that was entirely predictable, as the exact same mistake had been made by Chancellor Nigel Lawson in 1987(?).
Osborne is also responsible for the misbegotten and various "Help To Buy" schemes, which by pumping money into a market with inflexible supply, causes nothing but inflation.
Both of these are mistakes which somebody who claims to be a) an adult and b) a Conservative should not be making. But he did them and for some unfathomable reason nobody has punched him repeatedly in the face.
The man is utterly incompetent
Yeah, I'm a rightwinger, but the idea Osborne is some political genius is just dim. Boringly idiotic.
He's a fairly clever, very well educated posho. There's a lot of them. Trouble is, they often lack common sense, tactical nous, innate smarts, and vital cunning. And they fatally overrate themselves, thanks to social background.
e.g. David bloody Cameron
I'd have been a better PM than Cameron, and I'm a frothing, oversexed, functional alcoholic thriller writer who went to Aylestone Comprehensive.
To be clear Mike isn't saying that Osborne is awesome. He is just saying he is better than Dickie Davis and Dr Fox. This is not hard.
Chancellor Osborne in October 2015(?) announced changes in stamp duty for landlords six months in advance. This caused a noticable spike in house prices for those six months. Ths was an unforced error that was entirely predictable, as the exact same mistake had been made by Chancellor Nigel Lawson in 1987(?).
Osborne is also responsible for the misbegotten and various "Help To Buy" schemes, which by pumping money into a market with inflexible supply, causes nothing but inflation.
Both of these are mistakes which somebody who claims to be a) an adult and b) a Conservative should not be making. But he did them and for some unfathomable reason nobody has punched him repeatedly in the face.
The man is utterly incompetent
Yeah, I'm a rightwinger, but the idea Osborne is some political genius is just dim. Boringly idiotic.
He's a fairly clever, very well educated posho. There's a lot of them. Trouble is, they often lack common sense, tactical nous, innate smarts, and vital cunning. And they fatally overrate themselves, thanks to social background.
e.g. David bloody Cameron
I'd have been a better PM than Cameron, and I'm a frothing, oversexed, functional alcoholic thriller writer who went to Aylestone Comprehensive.
To be clear Mike isn't saying that Osborne is awesome. He is just saying he is better than Dickie Davis and Dr Fox. This is not hard.
At least Davis will get back some powers regardless of what happens, which is more than can be said for Cameron and Osborne last year!
Chancellor Osborne in October 2015(?) announced changes in stamp duty for landlords six months in advance. This caused a noticable spike in house prices for those six months. Ths was an unforced error that was entirely predictable, as the exact same mistake had been made by Chancellor Nigel Lawson in 1987(?).
Osborne is also responsible for the misbegotten and various "Help To Buy" schemes, which by pumping money into a market with inflexible supply, causes nothing but inflation.
Both of these are mistakes which somebody who claims to be a) an adult and b) a Conservative should not be making. But he did them and for some unfathomable reason nobody has punched him repeatedly in the face.
The man is utterly incompetent
Yeah, I'm a rightwinger, but the idea Osborne is some political genius is just dim. Boringly idiotic.
He's a fairly clever, very well educated posho. There's a lot of them. Trouble is, they often lack common sense, tactical nous, innate smarts, and vital cunning. And they fatally overrate themselves, thanks to social background.
e.g. David bloody Cameron
I'd have been a better PM than Cameron, and I'm a frothing, oversexed, functional alcoholic thriller writer who went to Aylestone Comprehensive.
To be clear Mike isn't saying that Osborne is awesome. He is just saying he is better than Dickie Davis and Dr Fox. This is not hard.
At least Davis will get back some powers regardless of what happens, which is more than can be said for Cameron and Osborne last year!
Chancellor Osborne in October 2015(?) announced changes in stamp duty for landlords six months in advance. This caused a noticable spike in house prices for those six months. Ths was an unforced error that was entirely predictable, as the exact same mistake had been made by Chancellor Nigel Lawson in 1987(?).
Osborne is also responsible for the misbegotten and various "Help To Buy" schemes, which by pumping money into a market with inflexible supply, causes nothing but inflation.
Both of these are mistakes which somebody who claims to be a) an adult and b) a Conservative should not be making. But he did them and for some unfathomable reason nobody has punched him repeatedly in the face.
The man is utterly incompetent
Yeah, I'm a rightwinger, but the idea Osborne is some political genius is just dim. Boringly idiotic.
He's a fairly clever, very well educated posho. There's a lot of them. Trouble is, they often lack common sense, tactical nous, innate smarts, and vital cunning. And they fatally overrate themselves, thanks to social background.
e.g. David bloody Cameron
I'd have been a better PM than Cameron, and I'm a frothing, oversexed, functional alcoholic thriller writer who went to Aylestone Comprehensive.
Grown adults, successful, with access to the finest advice available and not under pressure of time, can, by virtue of pride, carelessness, peer pressure or simple boredom, make the most catastrophic of errors.
I'm reading Hasting's book on the Korean War. Via the Inchon landings, MacArthur and the US/UN forces beat back in quick order the North Korean invaders. They could have stopped there, declared a victory, gone home. But they advanced up to the Chinese border, the Chinese got involved and the deaths mounted...
It puts George Bush the Elder and Gulf War I into perspective. Define objectives, assemble resources, stop when the war is won. They killed so many Iraqis they were embarrassed, came home victors. But when Bush I is remembered, it is as a one-term President who vomited into a lap.
Chancellor Osborne in October 2015(?) announced changes in stamp duty for landlords six months in advance. This caused a noticable spike in house prices for those six months. Ths was an unforced error that was entirely predictable, as the exact same mistake had been made by Chancellor Nigel Lawson in 1987(?).
Osborne is also responsible for the misbegotten and various "Help To Buy" schemes, which by pumping money into a market with inflexible supply, causes nothing but inflation.
Both of these are mistakes which somebody who claims to be a) an adult and b) a Conservative should not be making. But he did them and for some unfathomable reason nobody has punched him repeatedly in the face.
The man is utterly incompetent
Yeah, I'm a rightwinger, but the idea Osborne is some political genius is just dim. Boringly idiotic.
He's a fairly clever, very well educated posho. There's a lot of them. Trouble is, they often lack common sense, tactical nous, innate smarts, and vital cunning. And they fatally overrate themselves, thanks to social background.
e.g. David bloody Cameron
I'd have been a better PM than Cameron, and I'm a frothing, oversexed, functional alcoholic thriller writer who went to Aylestone Comprehensive.
To be clear Mike isn't saying that Osborne is awesome. He is just saying he is better than Dickie Davis and Dr Fox. This is not hard.
At least Davis will get back some powers regardless of what happens, which is more than can be said for Cameron and Osborne last year!
Paper powers, but no actual power.
Power to control our borders and determine our own future, whatever it may be it will be in our own hands, we may perhaps eventually in time return to the single market but we will never again be part of the EU
Chancellor Osborne in October 2015(?) announced changes in stamp duty for landlords six months in advance. This caused a noticable spike in house prices for those six months. Ths was an unforced error that was entirely predictable, as the exact same mistake had been made by Chancellor Nigel Lawson in 1987(?).
Osborne is also responsible for the misbegotten and various "Help To Buy" schemes, which by pumping money into a market with inflexible supply, causes nothing but inflation.
Both of these are mistakes which somebody who claims to be a) an adult and b) a Conservative should not be making. But he did them and for some unfathomable reason nobody has punched him repeatedly in the face.
The man is utterly incompetent
Yeah, I'm a rightwinger, but the idea Osborne is some political genius is just dim. Boringly idiotic.
He's a fairly clever, very well educated posho. There's a lot of them. Trouble is, they often lack common sense, tactical nous, innate smarts, and vital cunning. And they fatally overrate themselves, thanks to social background.
e.g. David bloody Cameron
I'd have been a better PM than Cameron, and I'm a frothing, oversexed, functional alcoholic thriller writer who went to Aylestone Comprehensive.
To be clear Mike isn't saying that Osborne is awesome. He is just saying he is better than Dickie Davis and Dr Fox. This is not hard.
Well exactly. I'd say he is better than Fox, but worse than Davis.
My honest, mildly informed opinion is that Bojo is brighter than all of them.
BoJo is bright. But not to be trusted. He uses long words, when short ones will do.
Chancellor Osborne in October 2015(?) announced changes in stamp duty for landlords six months in advance. This caused a noticable spike in house prices for those six months. Ths was an unforced error that was entirely predictable, as the exact same mistake had been made by Chancellor Nigel Lawson in 1987(?).
Osborne is also responsible for the misbegotten and various "Help To Buy" schemes, which by pumping money into a market with inflexible supply, causes nothing but inflation.
Both of these are mistakes which somebody who claims to be a) an adult and b) a Conservative should not be making. But he did them and for some unfathomable reason nobody has punched him repeatedly in the face.
The man is utterly incompetent
Help to Buy was a way of buying Conservative votes with government money at the cost of long term damage to the country.
Chancellor Osborne in October 2015(?) announced changes in stamp duty for landlords six months in advance. This caused a noticable spike in house prices for those six months. Ths was an unforced error that was entirely predictable, as the exact same mistake had been made by Chancellor Nigel Lawson in 1987(?).
Osborne is also responsible for the misbegotten and various "Help To Buy" schemes, which by pumping money into a market with inflexible supply, causes nothing but inflation.
Both of these are mistakes which somebody who claims to be a) an adult and b) a Conservative should not be making. But he did them and for some unfathomable reason nobody has punched him repeatedly in the face.
The man is utterly incompetent
Yeah, I'm a rightwinger, but the idea Osborne is some political genius is just dim. Boringly idiotic.
He's a fairly clever, very well educated posho. There's a lot of them. Trouble is, they often lack common sense, tactical nous, innate smarts, and vital cunning. And they fatally overrate themselves, thanks to social background.
e.g. David bloody Cameron
I'd have been a better PM than Cameron, and I'm a frothing, oversexed, functional alcoholic thriller writer who went to Aylestone Comprehensive.
Grown adults, successful, with access to the finest advice available and not under pressure of time, can, by virtue of pride, carelessness, peer pressure or simple boredom, make the most catastrophic of errors.
I'm reading Hasting's book on the Korean War. Via the Inchon landings, MacArthur and the US/UN forces beat back in quick order the North Korean invaders. They could have stopped there, declared a victory, gone home. But they advanced up to the Chinese border, the Chinese got involved and the deaths mounted...
It puts George Bush the Elder and Gulf War I into perspective. Define objectives, assemble resources, stop when the war is won. They killed so many Iraqis they were embarrassed, came home victors. But when Bush I is remembered, it is as a one-term President who vomited into a lap.
Sitting on the train at Kings X after a most enjoyable PB meet up. Thanks to @Mortimer for organising and mega thanks to @GeoffM for putting some money behind the bar.
Yes great fun. Many thanks Mortimer. And GeorrM, thanks, your request was honoured.
Seconded. Good meeting you all.
Re: thread header - I'm not a social media aficionado; is there an emoticon for "dies choking on his own blood after having coughed up a lung through hysterical laughter"?
Chancellor Osborne in October 2015(?) announced changes in stamp duty for landlords six months in advance. This caused a noticable spike in house prices for those six months. Ths was an unforced error that was entirely predictable, as the exact same mistake had been made by Chancellor Nigel Lawson in 1987(?).
Osborne is also responsible for the misbegotten and various "Help To Buy" schemes, which by pumping money into a market with inflexible supply, causes nothing but inflation.
Both of these are mistakes which somebody who claims to be a) an adult and b) a Conservative should not be making. But he did them and for some unfathomable reason nobody has punched him repeatedly in the face.
The man is utterly incompetent
Help to Buy was a way of buying Conservative votes with government money at the cost of long term damage to the country.
Ditto Triple Lock Pensions.
That's not to say HTB and TLP are unique as electoral bribes.
All governments do that, the only differences are who they chose to bribe, how much they chose to bribe and how successful the bribing is.
Chancellor Osborne in October 2015(?) announced changes in stamp duty for landlords six months in advance. This caused a noticable spike in house prices for those six months. Ths was an unforced error that was entirely predictable, as the exact same mistake had been made by Chancellor Nigel Lawson in 1987(?).
Osborne is also responsible for the misbegotten and various "Help To Buy" schemes, which by pumping money into a market with inflexible supply, causes nothing but inflation.
Both of these are mistakes which somebody who claims to be a) an adult and b) a Conservative should not be making. But he did them and for some unfathomable reason nobody has punched him repeatedly in the face.
The man is utterly incompetent
Help to Buy was a way of buying Conservative votes with government money at the cost of long term damage to the country.
Ditto Triple Lock Pensions.
That's not to say HTB and TLP are unique as electoral bribes.
All governments do that, the only differences are who they chose to bribe, how much they chose to bribe and how successful the bribing is.
Chancellor Osborne in October 2015(?) announced changes in stamp duty for landlords six months in advance. This caused a noticable spike in house prices for those six months. Ths was an unforced error that was entirely predictable, as the exact same mistake had been made by Chancellor Nigel Lawson in 1987(?).
Osborne is also responsible for the misbegotten and various "Help To Buy" schemes, which by pumping money into a market with inflexible supply, causes nothing but inflation.
Both of these are mistakes which somebody who claims to be a) an adult and b) a Conservative should not be making. But he did them and for some unfathomable reason nobody has punched him repeatedly in the face.
The man is utterly incompetent
Yeah, I'm a rightwinger, but the idea Osborne is some political genius is just dim. Boringly idiotic.
He's a fairly clever, very well educated posho. There's a lot of them. Trouble is, they often lack common sense, tactical nous, innate smarts, and vital cunning. And they fatally overrate themselves, thanks to social background.
e.g. David bloody Cameron
I'd have been a better PM than Cameron, and I'm a frothing, oversexed, functional alcoholic thriller writer who went to Aylestone Comprehensive.
Grown adults, successful, with access to the finest advice available and not under pressure of time, can, by virtue of pride, carelessness, peer pressure or simple boredom, make the most catastrophic of errors.
I'm reading Hasting's book on the Korean War. Via the Inchon landings, MacArthur and the US/UN forces beat back in quick order the North Korean invaders. They could have stopped there, declared a victory, gone home. But they advanced up to the Chinese border, the Chinese got involved and the deaths mounted...
It puts George Bush the Elder and Gulf War I into perspective. Define objectives, assemble resources, stop when the war is won. They killed so many Iraqis they were embarrassed, came home victors. But when Bush I is remembered, it is as a one-term President who vomited into a lap.
The master strategist who lost the Tories the 2010 GE, was sidelined for 2015 GE where the big boys were brought in to get the job done, lost the EU referundum & author of so omnishambles budgets I lost count.
Where has this reputation as an elite political operator come from? He is a poundshop peter mandelson.
The fact that he's considered some kind of giant by a hardcore Lib Dem Remainer says it all, really.
It's quite something when people on the left who hated Osborne for "austerity" are now singing his praises. Brexit has sent some people round the twist.
It's not quite something when you define the left properly i.e. so as to exclude supporters of a political party that was quite content to go into coalition with Osborne.
Thirded. She reminds me of my first serious girlfriend. Thanks to all who came this evening and especially @Mortimer for organising and @GeoffM for the money behind the bar - we did toast the Gibraltar Leavers in your honour! A delight to meet so many fellow PBers.
Bog standard comp. Used to be Hereford High School for Boys and Girls, i.e. the grammar school - the best state school in the county. I joined the year it went comprehensive, and I saw it decline, from specially printed rugby fixture lists, to a kind of apathetic This'll Do where they barely played competitive sports at all.
It's one of the reasons I am mildly in favour of grammar schools (tho I see the downsides)
More positively, I escaped this declining bollocks and went to the (then new) Hereford Sixth Form College, which was weirdly marvellous, and tolerantly encouraging of bright but rebellious spirits like me (I was expelled for a week for gambling in the common room, but just a week). Thank God for them. They got me into UCL
Having lived in Hereford for a few years, I believe The Bishop of Hereford's Bluecoat School is now the best state school there after the independent Hereford Cathedral School
Chancellor Osborne in October 2015(?) announced changes in stamp duty for landlords six months in advance. This caused a noticable spike in house prices for those six months. Ths was an unforced error that was entirely predictable, as the exact same mistake had been made by Chancellor Nigel Lawson in 1987(?).
Osborne is also responsible for the misbegotten and various "Help To Buy" schemes, which by pumping money into a market with inflexible supply, causes nothing but inflation.
Both of these are mistakes which somebody who claims to be a) an adult and b) a Conservative should not be making. But he did them and for some unfathomable reason nobody has punched him repeatedly in the face.
The man is utterly incompetent
Yeah, I'm a rightwinger, but the idea Osborne is some political genius is just dim. Boringly idiotic.
He's a fairly clever, very well educated posho. There's a lot of them. Trouble is, they often lack common sense, tactical nous, innate smarts, and vital cunning. And they fatally overrate themselves, thanks to social background.
e.g. David bloody Cameron
I'd have been a better PM than Cameron, and I'm a frothing, oversexed, functional alcoholic thriller writer who went to Aylestone Comprehensive.
Grown adults, successful, with access to the finest advice available and not under pressure of time, can, by virtue of pride, carelessness, peer pressure or simple boredom, make the most catastrophic of errors.
I'm reading Hasting's book on the Korean War. Via the Inchon landings, MacArthur and the US/UN forces beat back in quick order the North Korean invaders. They could have stopped there, declared a victory, gone home. But they advanced up to the Chinese border, the Chinese got involved and the deaths mounted...
It puts George Bush the Elder and Gulf War I into perspective. Define objectives, assemble resources, stop when the war is won. They killed so many Iraqis they were embarrassed, came home victors. But when Bush I is remembered, it is as a one-term President who vomited into a lap.
Bog standard comp. Used to be Hereford High School for Boys and Girls, i.e. the grammar school - the best state school in the county. I joined the year it went comprehensive, and I saw it decline, from specially printed rugby fixture lists, to a kind of apathetic This'll Do where they barely played competitive sports at all.
It's one of the reasons I am mildly in favour of grammar schools (tho I see the downsides)
More positively, I escaped this declining bollocks and went to the (then new) Hereford Sixth Form College, which was weirdly marvellous, and tolerantly encouraging of bright but rebellious spirits like me (I was expelled for a week for gambling in the common room, but just a week). Thank God for them. They got me into UCL
Having lived in Hereford for a few years, I believe The Bishop of Hereford's Bluecoat School is now the best state school there after the independent Hereford Cathedral School
Yep, you're right. And Bluecoats was definitely seen as inferior in my day. Sad.
Yes, it was formed by merging two CofE secondary moderns
Thirded. She reminds me of my first serious girlfriend. Thanks to all who came this evening and especially @Mortimer for organising and @GeoffM for the money behind the bar - we did toast the Gibraltar Leavers in your honour! A delight to meet so many fellow PBers.
Kudos!
Thanks very much @GeoffM - that was really kind of you and much appreciated by us Leavers in the heart of the Metropolis!
Chancellor Osborne in October 2015(?) announced changes in stamp duty for landlords six months in advance. This caused a noticable spike in house prices for those six months. Ths was an unforced error that was entirely predictable, as the exact same mistake had been made by Chancellor Nigel Lawson in 1987(?).
Osborne is also responsible for the misbegotten and various "Help To Buy" schemes, which by pumping money into a market with inflexible supply, causes nothing but inflation.
Both of these are mistakes which somebody who claims to be a) an adult and b) a Conservative should not be making. But he did them and for some unfathomable reason nobody has punched him repeatedly in the face.
The man is utterly incompetent
Yeah, I'm a rightwinger, but the idea Osborne is some political genius is just dim. Boringly idiotic.
He's a fairly clever, very well educated posho. There's a lot of them. Trouble is, they often lack common sense, tactical nous, innate smarts, and vital cunning. And they fatally overrate themselves, thanks to social background.
e.g. David bloody Cameron
I'd have been a better PM than Cameron, and I'm a frothing, oversexed, functional alcoholic thriller writer who went to Aylestone Comprehensive.
To be clear Mike isn't saying that Osborne is awesome. He is just saying he is better than Dickie Davis and Dr Fox. This is not hard.
May was short on substance, but at the moment she can wave away pretty much everything with the excuse that "this is a matter for negotiations but I broadly want [X]". She has the luxury of that line for some time to come. It will be interesting when things finally become more concrete and she has to justify the deals struck. But we're not there yet, and she didn't frighten the horses, so she didn't hurt herself tonight.
I thought Corbyn (amazingly) came across as measured, polite and reasonably well informed. I disagree with pretty much everything he says, but tonight was a big change from his usual prickly interview style accompanied by unforced errors left-right-and-centre. I mean, at 18 points behind in the polls, I'm not sure one good interview makes much difference, but credit where credit's due.
I wonder if the Lib Dems are ever going to move beyond the referendum debate. At some point they are surely going to have to engage with Brexit rather than demanding a second vote and wringing their hands. I suppose at the moment there's probably a good number of people out there who identify with the sentiments they express, but I wonder how much longer they can keep this up without looking like they're burying their head in the sand.
Chancellor Osborne in October 2015(?) announced changes in stamp duty for landlords six months in advance. This caused a noticable spike in house prices for those six months. Ths was an unforced error that was entirely predictable, as the exact same mistake had been made by Chancellor Nigel Lawson in 1987(?).
Osborne is also responsible for the misbegotten and various "Help To Buy" schemes, which by pumping money into a market with inflexible supply, causes nothing but inflation.
Both of these are mistakes which somebody who claims to be a) an adult and b) a Conservative should not be making. But he did them and for some unfathomable reason nobody has punched him repeatedly in the face.
The man is utterly incompetent
Yeah, I'm a rightwinger, but the idea Osborne is some political genius is just dim. Boringly idiotic.
He's a fairly clever, very well educated posho. There's a lot of them. Trouble is, they often lack common sense, tactical nous, innate smarts, and vital cunning. And they fatally overrate themselves, thanks to social background.
e.g. David bloody Cameron
I'd have been a better PM than Cameron, and I'm a frothing, oversexed, functional alcoholic thriller writer who went to Aylestone Comprehensive.
To be clear Mike isn't saying that Osborne is awesome. He is just saying he is better than Dickie Davis and Dr Fox. This is not hard.
I am not at all convinced by that.
I have been pleasantly surprised by David Davis, and feel reasonably confident about Boris Johnson. I have never been a fan of Dr Fox, and his recent pronouncement about an FTA with Israel (with which we already have an FTA through the Euromed agreements) broadly confirm my views that he is a man unaware of his own limitations.
May was short on substance, but at the moment she can wave away pretty much everything with the excuse that "this is a matter for negotiations but I broadly want [X]". She has the luxury of that line for some time to come. It will be interesting when things finally become more concrete and she has to justify the deals struck. But we're not there yet, and she didn't frighten the horses, so she didn't hurt herself tonight.
I thought Corbyn (amazingly) came across as measured, polite and reasonably well informed. I disagree with pretty much everything he says, but tonight was a big change from his usual prickly interview style accompanied by unforced errors left-right-and-centre. I mean, at 18 points behind in the polls, I'm not sure one good interview makes much difference, but credit where credit's due.
I wonder if the Lib Dems are ever going to move beyond the referendum debate. At some point they are surely going to have to engage with Brexit rather than demanding a second vote and wringing their hands. I suppose at the moment there's probably a good number of people out there who identify with the sentiments they express, but I wonder how much longer they can keep this up without looking like they're burying their head in the sand.
Chancellor Osborne in October 2015(?) announced changes in stamp duty for landlords six months in advance. This caused a noticable spike in house prices for those six months. Ths was an unforced error that was entirely predictable, as the exact same mistake had been made by Chancellor Nigel Lawson in 1987(?).
Osborne is also responsible for the misbegotten and various "Help To Buy" schemes, which by pumping money into a market with inflexible supply, causes nothing but inflation.
Both of these are mistakes which somebody who claims to be a) an adult and b) a Conservative should not be making. But he did them and for some unfathomable reason nobody has punched him repeatedly in the face.
The man is utterly incompetent
Yeah, I'm a rightwinger, but the idea Osborne is some political genius is just dim. Boringly idiotic.
He's a fairly clever, very well educated posho. There's a lot of them. Trouble is, they often lack common sense, tactical nous, innate smarts, and vital cunning. And they fatally overrate themselves, thanks to social background.
e.g. David bloody Cameron
I'd have been a better PM than Cameron, and I'm a frothing, oversexed, functional alcoholic thriller writer who went to Aylestone Comprehensive.
To be clear Mike isn't saying that Osborne is awesome. He is just saying he is better than Dickie Davis and Dr Fox. This is not hard.
I am not at all convinced by that.
I have been pleasantly surprised by David Davis, and feel reasonably confident about Boris Johnson. I have never been a fan of Dr Fox, and his recent pronouncement about an FTA with Israel (with which we already have an FTA through the Euromed agreements) broadly confirm my views that he is a man unaware of his own limitations.
This pretty much sums up my own views, too. At least 10 back bench MPs that I'm aware of more qualified than Fox to be in that position.
Tim Farron says A50 is revocable - is this the case?
There is disagreement. But the question will not arise for many a reason.
He said he thought it could be revoked if there were the political will. He is right. The 28 states could for example agree a new treaty to that effect. But that's extremely unlikely to happen.
What is more likely is that the French presidential election result leads to negotiations on France's status; and with or without a Dave's Deal Equivalent (DDE), a Frexit referendum could ensue before the end of this year. One route then is the "reform of Europe", which - paper bags at the ready - may even give a role to Tony Blair.
May was short on substance, but at the moment she can wave away pretty much everything with the excuse that "this is a matter for negotiations but I broadly want [X]". She has the luxury of that line for some time to come. It will be interesting when things finally become more concrete and she has to justify the deals struck. But we're not there yet, and she didn't frighten the horses, so she didn't hurt herself tonight.
I thought Corbyn (amazingly) came across as measured, polite and reasonably well informed. I disagree with pretty much everything he says, but tonight was a big change from his usual prickly interview style accompanied by unforced errors left-right-and-centre. I mean, at 18 points behind in the polls, I'm not sure one good interview makes much difference, but credit where credit's due.
I wonder if the Lib Dems are ever going to move beyond the referendum debate. At some point they are surely going to have to engage with Brexit rather than demanding a second vote and wringing their hands. I suppose at the moment there's probably a good number of people out there who identify with the sentiments they express, but I wonder how much longer they can keep this up without looking like they're burying their head in the sand.
WTF is the Sun playing at? Backing Brexit is one thing; wanting to throw relations between Britain and EU27 into the muck is another. And this is from the newspaper that is always on the winning side. Nobody under 60 in Britain has ever voted in a general election when the Sun hasn't backed the winner. Who is playing at what here?
I said a few months ago that security and intelligence co-operation was something we could withdraw if the EU got too uppity. Caused some surprise on here at the time as if it was below the belt.
Thirded. She reminds me of my first serious girlfriend. Thanks to all who came this evening and especially @Mortimer for organising and @GeoffM for the money behind the bar - we did toast the Gibraltar Leavers in your honour! A delight to meet so many fellow PBers.
Kudos!
Thanks very much @GeoffM - that was really kind of you and much appreciated by us Leavers in the heart of the Metropolis!
I think the rest of PB needs to know that @Mortimer looks like a young - and I mean young - Quentin Letts.
Yet another ludicrous thread header. The triggering of Article 50 seems to have coincidentally lobotomised the most extreme Remainers.
The truth can be painful.
The thing is, Osborne was intimately with the Remain campaign including bearing responsibility for some of its most outlandish claims. They lost, in part because of him. Why would we want someone clearly that incompetent responsible for the Brexit negotiations?
I said a few months ago that security and intelligence co-operation was something we could withdraw if the EU got too uppity. Caused some surprise on here at the time as if it was below the belt.
Its a weapon, a real one.
Of course security is on the table. Those who cry "mustn't use that as a bargaining counter" are naive. In the meantime, some fitting music for the discussion of this whole area:
Thirded. She reminds me of my first serious girlfriend. Thanks to all who came this evening and especially @Mortimer for organising and @GeoffM for the money behind the bar - we did toast the Gibraltar Leavers in your honour! A delight to meet so many fellow PBers.
Kudos!
Thanks very much @GeoffM - that was really kind of you and much appreciated by us Leavers in the heart of the Metropolis!
I think the rest of PB needs to know that @Mortimer looks like a young - and I mean young - Quentin Letts.
Thirded. She reminds me of my first serious girlfriend. Thanks to all who came this evening and especially @Mortimer for organising and @GeoffM for the money behind the bar - we did toast the Gibraltar Leavers in your honour! A delight to meet so many fellow PBers.
Kudos!
Thanks very much @GeoffM - that was really kind of you and much appreciated by us Leavers in the heart of the Metropolis!
I think the rest of PB needs to know that @Mortimer looks like a young - and I mean young - Quentin Letts.
WTF is the Sun playing at? Backing Brexit is one thing; wanting to throw relations between Britain and EU27 into the muck is another. And this is from the newspaper that is always on the winning side. Nobody under 60 in Britain has ever voted in a general election when the Sun hasn't backed the winner. Who is playing at what here?
May's letter today was very polite and conciliatory as an opener but she has to be prepared to be a ruthless bitch over the next 2 years if necessary, which is why it is probably just as well she got the job rather than Boris or Leadsom as I don't think they have it in them (for that matter neither did Cameron)
I said a few months ago that security and intelligence co-operation was something we could withdraw if the EU got too uppity. Caused some surprise on here at the time as if it was below the belt.
Thirded. She reminds me of my first serious girlfriend. Thanks to all who came this evening and especially @Mortimer for organising and @GeoffM for the money behind the bar - we did toast the Gibraltar Leavers in your honour! A delight to meet so many fellow PBers.
Kudos!
Thanks very much @GeoffM - that was really kind of you and much appreciated by us Leavers in the heart of the Metropolis!
I think the rest of PB needs to know that @Mortimer looks like a young - and I mean young - Quentin Letts.
North is a fanatical adherent to his own view of what Brexit should be and will allow no deviation from that view. He is more of a fanatic in his own way than even you are. I actually share his vision of what Brexit shuld be - effectively a modified Norway model - but the way in which he attacks anyone who has the slightest difference of opinion from him makes him almost Remainiac in his attitudes.
His blog has spent far more time over the years attacking fellow anti-EU campaigners than it has the EU or its supporters.
To all of those who went for drinks tonight - I really wish I could have joined you and I hope to meet all of you in the future. But this night could not go past unmarked.
WTF is the Sun playing at? Backing Brexit is one thing; wanting to throw relations between Britain and EU27 into the muck is another. And this is from the newspaper that is always on the winning side. Nobody under 60 in Britain has ever voted in a general election when the Sun hasn't backed the winner. Who is playing at what here?
FFS, let us have our fun (for the next five years), we had to suck up europhile sneering and jeering for about FORTY FUCKING YEARS
We want the europhiles to weep and sob. We want to hear the lamentations of their women, we want to take away their slaves and turn them into pets, even as we fully intend to gas their pets to death. Because we have conquered. We triumphed. We are the champions.
In the end, we won, because they played it so badly, they destroyed themselves. FUCKING WANKERS, HAHAHAHAHAHA
In all seriousness, the sight of Lord Heseltine nearly in tears on Newsnight GAVE ME THE HORN
Blair, Mandelson, Osborne, Heseltine, Cameron, Major, Ashdown, Clegg, they have dominated the political leadership of this country for almost 30 years and they are all losers today
WTF is the Sun playing at? Backing Brexit is one thing; wanting to throw relations between Britain and EU27 into the muck is another. And this is from the newspaper that is always on the winning side. Nobody under 60 in Britain has ever voted in a general election when the Sun hasn't backed the winner. Who is playing at what here?
FFS, let us have our fun (for the next five years), we had to suck up europhile sneering and jeering for about FORTY FUCKING YEARS
We want the europhiles to weep and sob. We want to hear the lamentations of their women, we want to take away their slaves and turn them into pets, even as we fully intend to gas their pets to death. Because we have conquered. We triumphed. We are the champions.
In the end, we won, because they played it so badly, they destroyed themselves. FUCKING WANKERS, HAHAHAHAHAHA
In all seriousness, the sight of Lord Heseltine nearly in tears on Newsnight GAVE ME THE HORN
Blair, Mandelson, Osborne, Heseltine, Cameron, Major, Ashdown, Clegg, they have dominated the political leadership of this country for almost 30 years and they are all losers today
Blair, Mandelson, OSBORNE, Heseltine, Cameron, Major, ASHDOWN, Clegg, STURGEON......you took a hell of a beating today....
I said a few months ago that security and intelligence co-operation was something we could withdraw if the EU got too uppity. Caused some surprise on here at the time as if it was below the belt.
Its a weapon, a real one.
A very real one.
No, it's not. Imagine a terrorist attack occuring in the UK that could have been prevented if May had not withdrawn cooperation. Indeed, imagine Brits, or anyone else for that matter, being killed in an attack abroad for the same reason. This is bluff and bluster designed only to assuage right wing newspapers on a day when it became absolutely clear the government has very few negotiating aces up its sleeves. There is no way on God's earth that a UK Prime Minister will deliberately make UK citizens less secure.
WTF is the Sun playing at? Backing Brexit is one thing; wanting to throw relations between Britain and EU27 into the muck is another. And this is from the newspaper that is always on the winning side. Nobody under 60 in Britain has ever voted in a general election when the Sun hasn't backed the winner. Who is playing at what here?
FFS, let us have our fun (for the next five years), we had to suck up europhile sneering and jeering for about FORTY FUCKING YEARS
We want the europhiles to weep and sob. We want to hear the lamentations of their women, we want to take away their slaves and turn them into pets, even as we fully intend to gas their pets to death. Because we have conquered. We triumphed. We are the champions.
In the end, we won, because they played it so badly, they destroyed themselves. FUCKING WANKERS, HAHAHAHAHAHA
In all seriousness, the sight of Lord Heseltine nearly in tears on Newsnight GAVE ME THE HORN
Blair, Mandelson, Osborne, Heseltine, Cameron, Major, Ashdown, Clegg, they have dominated the political leadership of this country for almost 30 years and they are all losers today
They have lost a political argument. On a personal level they are wealthy and will see no ill-effects from Brexit. All the risk is being borne by those much lower down the ladder.
FFS, let us have our fun (for the next five years), we had to suck up europhile sneering and jeering for about FORTY FUCKING YEARS
We want the europhiles to weep and sob. We want to hear the lamentations of their women, we want to take away their slaves and turn them into pets, even as we fully intend to gas their pets to death. Because we have conquered. We triumphed. We are the champions.
In the end, we won, because they played it so badly, they destroyed themselves. FUCKING WANKERS, HAHAHAHAHAHA
In all seriousness, the sight of Lord Heseltine nearly in tears on Newsnight GAVE ME THE HORN
"In war: resolution. In defeat: defiance. In victory: magnanimity. In peace: goodwill." - Churchill
To all of those who went for drinks tonight - I really wish I could have joined you and I hope to meet all of you in the future. But this night could not go past unmarked.
To all of those who went for drinks tonight - I really wish I could have joined you and I hope to meet all of you in the future. But this night could not go past unmarked.
Hope everyone's filling their boots on the odds against side of these bets.
'IndyRef2 odds: Scotland odds-on to vote for independence in second Scottish Independence Referendum
..Although the UK government insists a second referendum on Scottish Independence will be blocked until after the Brexit process has been completed, bookmakers William Hill make it just 8/15 that IndyRef2 takes place before the end of 2020.
Hill's spokesman Graham Sharpe told BetOnPolitics.co.uk: "'The first Scottish Referendum set a new political betting record when over £10million was gambled on the outcome industry-wide, and the next one already looks set to produce a bigger turnover than that."
At time of writing, the same firm make it 4/6 that when the Scottish Referendum does take place, Scotland will vote in favour of Independence (11/10 that the country votes against independence).'
I said a few months ago that security and intelligence co-operation was something we could withdraw if the EU got too uppity. Caused some surprise on here at the time as if it was below the belt.
Its a weapon, a real one.
A very real one.
No, it's not. Imagine a terrorist attack occuring in the UK that could have been prevented if May had not withdrawn cooperation. Indeed, imagine Brits, or anyone else for that matter, being killed in an attack abroad for the same reason. This is bluff and bluster designed only to assuage right wing newspapers on a day when it became absolutely clear the government has very few negotiating aces up its sleeves. There is no way on God's earth that a UK Prime Minister will deliberately make UK citizens less secure.
Naive. We already curate our intelligence with regards to our EU allies. Do you honestly imagine we hand over everything we know to Bucharest and Bulgaria, in the same way we deal with Paris and Berlin?
Of course not. We trust some more, others less, and the Americans trust us to assess, correctly, who should know what, when.
We are good at this. They need us. We use it. Hardball.
Can you imagine how boring it would be if you were a bookie and all the people who lost a bet to you got to go all round the houses trying to justify how they were right really and it's just that the result didn't go their way?
FFS, let us have our fun (for the next five years), we had to suck up europhile sneering and jeering for about FORTY FUCKING YEARS
We want the europhiles to weep and sob. We want to hear the lamentations of their women, we want to take away their slaves and turn them into pets, even as we fully intend to gas their pets to death. Because we have conquered. We triumphed. We are the champions.
In the end, we won, because they played it so badly, they destroyed themselves. FUCKING WANKERS, HAHAHAHAHAHA
In all seriousness, the sight of Lord Heseltine nearly in tears on Newsnight GAVE ME THE HORN
"In war: resolution. In defeat: defiance. In victory: magnanimity. In peace: goodwill." - Churchill
Stay classy, Sean.
Sunil: I'm ready, man. Check it out! I am the ultimate Brexiteer! State of the Brexiteer art! You do NOT want to fuck with me. Check it out! Hey, Viewcode, don't worry! Me and my squad of ultimate Brexiteers will protect you! Check it out! Independently targeting particle-beam phalanx. Vwap! Fry half a city with this puppy. We got tactical smart missiles, phase plasma pulse rifles, RPGs. We got sonic, electronic ball-breakers! We got nukes, we got knives, sharp sticks...
I said a few months ago that security and intelligence co-operation was something we could withdraw if the EU got too uppity. Caused some surprise on here at the time as if it was below the belt.
Its a weapon, a real one.
A very real one.
No, it's not. Imagine a terrorist attack occuring in the UK that could have been prevented if May had not withdrawn cooperation. Indeed, imagine Brits, or anyone else for that matter, being killed in an attack abroad for the same reason. This is bluff and bluster designed only to assuage right wing newspapers on a day when it became absolutely clear the government has very few negotiating aces up its sleeves. There is no way on God's earth that a UK Prime Minister will deliberately make UK citizens less secure.
Naive. We already curate our intelligence with regards to our EU allies. Do you honestly imagine we hand over everything we know to Bucharest and Bulgaria, in the same way we deal with Paris and Berlin?
Of course not. We trust some more, others less, and the Americans trust us to assess, correctly, who should know what, when.
We are good at this. They need us. We use it. Hardball.
Naive. We need info, too. We need people detained and watched, movements noted, airwave and internet traffic communicated. This is bluff and bluster. No UK PM would ever increase the risk of an attack occuring. Working less effectively with the Europeans would do just that. Imagine the memo leaks here and across the Channel after an attack. This "threat" was designed solely for what it is getting tonight from the Sun.
I said a few months ago that security and intelligence co-operation was something we could withdraw if the EU got too uppity. Caused some surprise on here at the time as if it was below the belt.
Its a weapon, a real one.
A very real one.
No, it's not. Imagine a terrorist attack occuring in the UK that could have been prevented if May had not withdrawn cooperation. Indeed, imagine Brits, or anyone else for that matter, being killed in an attack abroad for the same reason. This is bluff and bluster designed only to assuage right wing newspapers on a day when it became absolutely clear the government has very few negotiating aces up its sleeves. There is no way on God's earth that a UK Prime Minister will deliberately make UK citizens less secure.
Naive. We already curate our intelligence with regards to our EU allies. Do you honestly imagine we hand over everything we know to Bucharest and Bulgaria, in the same way we deal with Paris and Berlin?
Of course not. We trust some more, others less, and the Americans trust us to assess, correctly, who should know what, when.
We are good at this. They need us. We use it. Hardball.
Didn't we vote for an end to freedom of movement of intelligence?
To all of those who went for drinks tonight - I really wish I could have joined you and I hope to meet all of you in the future. But this night could not go past unmarked.
Hope everyone's filling their boots on the odds against side of these bets.
'IndyRef2 odds: Scotland odds-on to vote for independence in second Scottish Independence Referendum
..Although the UK government insists a second referendum on Scottish Independence will be blocked until after the Brexit process has been completed, bookmakers William Hill make it just 8/15 that IndyRef2 takes place before the end of 2020.
Hill's spokesman Graham Sharpe told BetOnPolitics.co.uk: "'The first Scottish Referendum set a new political betting record when over £10million was gambled on the outcome industry-wide, and the next one already looks set to produce a bigger turnover than that."
At time of writing, the same firm make it 4/6 that when the Scottish Referendum does take place, Scotland will vote in favour of Independence (11/10 that the country votes against independence).'
Prediction. There won't be a Scottish indyref2 until the transitional Brexit is over, and HMG can say: here's the deal. That means something like 2023 at the earliest, given the need for a campaign etc.
That's a huge amount of time, when so many variables are in play.
The value right now is NO. These are significantly generous odds.
North is a fanatical adherent to his own view of what Brexit should be and will allow no deviation from that view. He is more of a fanatic in his own way than even you are. I actually share his vision of what Brexit shuld be - effectively a modified Norway model - but the way in which he attacks anyone who has the slightest difference of opinion from him makes him almost Remainiac in his attitudes.
His blog has spent far more time over the years attacking fellow anti-EU campaigners than it has the EU or its supporters.
I would say he is simply exposing the contradictions of the Brexit argument. Including his own arguments...
FFS, let us have our fun (for the next five years), we had to suck up europhile sneering and jeering for about FORTY FUCKING YEARS
We want the europhiles to weep and sob. We want to hear the lamentations of their women, we want to take away their slaves and turn them into pets, even as we fully intend to gas their pets to death. Because we have conquered. We triumphed. We are the champions.
In the end, we won, because they played it so badly, they destroyed themselves. FUCKING WANKERS, HAHAHAHAHAHA
In all seriousness, the sight of Lord Heseltine nearly in tears on Newsnight GAVE ME THE HORN
"In war: resolution. In defeat: defiance. In victory: magnanimity. In peace: goodwill." - Churchill
Stay classy, Sean.
We have not won anything yet, from the EU's perspective the battle has been lost but the war can still be won
WTF is the Sun playing at? Backing Brexit is one thing; wanting to throw relations between Britain and EU27 into the muck is another. And this is from the newspaper that is always on the winning side. Nobody under 60 in Britain has ever voted in a general election when the Sun hasn't backed the winner. Who is playing at what here?
FFS, let us have our fun (for the next five years), we had to suck up europhile sneering and jeering for about FORTY FUCKING YEARS
We want the europhiles to weep and sob. We want to hear the lamentations of their women, we want to take away their slaves and turn them into pets, even as we fully intend to gas their pets to death. Because we have conquered. We triumphed. We are the champions.
In the end, we won, because they played it so badly, they destroyed themselves. FUCKING WANKERS, HAHAHAHAHAHA
In all seriousness, the sight of Lord Heseltine nearly in tears on Newsnight GAVE ME THE HORN
Blair, Mandelson, Osborne, Heseltine, Cameron, Major, Ashdown, Clegg, they have dominated the political leadership of this country for almost 30 years and they are all losers today
Blair, Mandelson, OSBORNE, Heseltine, Cameron, Major, ASHDOWN, Clegg, STURGEON......you took a hell of a beating today....
The key has always been the public accepting missing targets on immigration for various reasons. Will Brexit actually happening, the feel of it, be enough to satisfy many people who do care about immigration (which includes many remainers as well as most though not all leavers) even if it is not the total fix some hoped it would be?
WTF is the Sun playing at? Backing Brexit is one thing; wanting to throw relations between Britain and EU27 into the muck is another. And this is from the newspaper that is always on the winning side. Nobody under 60 in Britain has ever voted in a general election when the Sun hasn't backed the winner. Who is playing at what here?
FFS, let us have our fun (for the next five years), we had to suck up europhile sneering and jeering for about FORTY FUCKING YEARS
We want the europhiles to weep and sob. We want to hear the lamentations of their women, we want to take away their slaves and turn them into pets, even as we fully intend to gas their pets to death. Because we have conquered. We triumphed. We are the champions.
In the end, we won, because they played it so badly, they destroyed themselves. FUCKING WANKERS, HAHAHAHAHAHA
In all seriousness, the sight of Lord Heseltine nearly in tears on Newsnight GAVE ME THE HORN
Blair, Mandelson, Osborne, Heseltine, Cameron, Major, Ashdown, Clegg, they have dominated the political leadership of this country for almost 30 years and they are all losers today
Utter, utter losers. You don't get more losery than this, other than losing a world war and seeing your country vanquished and occupied
Everything they believed in has been taken away, and trashed. It's all over. It must be acutely painful for rich, aged, privileged people like Heseltine and Clarke, who always felt they were on the incoming tide of history, then suddenly seeing, at the very end of their lives and careers, everything overturned, and that all they did was for absolutely nothing. Their entire lives were literally wasted.
LOL
I think Lord Heseltine was almost weeping for the legacy of his political career too
I said a few months ago that security and intelligence co-operation was something we could withdraw if the EU got too uppity. Caused some surprise on here at the time as if it was below the belt.
Its a weapon, a real one.
A very real one.
No, it's not. Imagine a terrorist attack occuring in the UK that could have been prevented if May had not withdrawn cooperation. Indeed, imagine Brits, or anyone else for that matter, being killed in an attack abroad for the same reason. This is bluff and bluster designed only to assuage right wing newspapers on a day when it became absolutely clear the government has very few negotiating aces up its sleeves. There is no way on God's earth that a UK Prime Minister will deliberately make UK citizens less secure.
Naive. We already curate our intelligence with regards to our EU allies. Do you honestly imagine we hand over everything we know to Bucharest and Bulgaria, in the same way we deal with Paris and Berlin?
Of course not. We trust some more, others less, and the Americans trust us to assess, correctly, who should know what, when.
We are good at this. They need us. We use it. Hardball.
Naive. We need info, too. We need people detained and watched, movements noted, airwave and internet traffic communicated. This is bluff and bluster. No UK PM would ever increase the risk of an attack occuring. Working less effectively with the Europeans would do just that. Imagine the memo leaks here and across the Channel after an attack. This "threat" was designed solely for what it is getting tonight from the Sun.
With Trump in the White House, and America in historical retreat from global policing and western security, given her relatively weakening economic position (Trump is a symptom of this, not a cause), then, yes, we have a big card to play. We are one of the last serious western military powers, willing to shed blood.
If I was, say, an Estonian MEP, I would think, Do I want to "economically damage" nuclear armed liberal Britain, or shall I be nice to them, in case we REALLY need them onside?
Everything is changing. Play the card. But play it subtly. Which is what TMay has done.
There is nothing subtle about the Sun's headline. A Russian attack on any EU member state would be a catastrophe for the UK - markets would crash, for a start. Trump's complete untrustworthiness and willingness to sell the UK down the river when it suits him makes us more reliant on security cooperation with the Europeans, not less. This "threat" is a carrot thrown at the right to keep it onside. It's willy waving, nothing more.
Naive. We already curate our intelligence with regards to our EU allies. Do you honestly imagine we hand over everything we know to Bucharest and Bulgaria, in the same way we deal with Paris and Berlin?
Of course not. We trust some more, others less, and the Americans trust us to assess, correctly, who should know what, when.
We are good at this. They need us. We use it. Hardball.
The question is whether it is sensible to put security co-operation into play as a bargaining chip. At one level, I would say, why not if it's a benefit we're giving them. However, security is closely linked to trust and confidence. If you trade away that trust and confidence, security loses all the currency it has. And it undoubtedly plays both ways. Our would-be partners will look elsewhere.
We need to play the security card very carefully. It looks to have been very clumsily played today, hence the push-back.
Comments
Are you not entertained?
Is this not why you are here?
No Mike speaks truth. May's Brexit B team are rubbish.
I'm reading Hasting's book on the Korean War. Via the Inchon landings, MacArthur and the US/UN forces beat back in quick order the North Korean invaders. They could have stopped there, declared a victory, gone home. But they advanced up to the Chinese border, the Chinese got involved and the deaths mounted...
It puts George Bush the Elder and Gulf War I into perspective. Define objectives, assemble resources, stop when the war is won. They killed so many Iraqis they were embarrassed, came home victors. But when Bush I is remembered, it is as a one-term President who vomited into a lap.
I will never understand my fellow human beings...
Ditto Triple Lock Pensions.
Politically about as reversible as the Anglo-Irish Treaty.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/145064/Kennedy-Highest-Rated-Modern-President-Nixon-Lowest.aspx
https://www.oddschecker.com/insight/politics/20170125-ukip-look-set-to-win-the-stoke-on-trent-by-election
Re: thread header - I'm not a social media aficionado; is there an emoticon for "dies choking on his own blood after having coughed up a lung through hysterical laughter"?
"It gets GCSE results slightly below the average for Herefordshire and England."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aylestone_Business_and_Enterprise_College
All governments do that, the only differences are who they chose to bribe, how much they chose to bribe and how successful the bribing is.
And how much long term damage the bribing does.
After a minute each on "Who are you?", the three themes will be
* employment
* security
* each candidate's social model
They'll finish by saying how they plan to unite the people.
Mobile phones will be banned, but before each theme opens the candidates will get six minutes to confer with their teams.
Elabe will then poll viewers - those who are still awake - on who they found most convincing.
PS Mélenchon is doing well in today's two polls. He's practically snapping at Fillon's heels.
https://twitter.com/skynews/status/847201723110379520
Thanks very much @GeoffM - that was really kind of you and much appreciated by us Leavers in the heart of the Metropolis!
May was short on substance, but at the moment she can wave away pretty much everything with the excuse that "this is a matter for negotiations but I broadly want [X]". She has the luxury of that line for some time to come. It will be interesting when things finally become more concrete and she has to justify the deals struck. But we're not there yet, and she didn't frighten the horses, so she didn't hurt herself tonight.
I thought Corbyn (amazingly) came across as measured, polite and reasonably well informed. I disagree with pretty much everything he says, but tonight was a big change from his usual prickly interview style accompanied by unforced errors left-right-and-centre. I mean, at 18 points behind in the polls, I'm not sure one good interview makes much difference, but credit where credit's due.
I wonder if the Lib Dems are ever going to move beyond the referendum debate. At some point they are surely going to have to engage with Brexit rather than demanding a second vote and wringing their hands. I suppose at the moment there's probably a good number of people out there who identify with the sentiments they express, but I wonder how much longer they can keep this up without looking like they're burying their head in the sand.
Graham Brady would be brilliant, for example....
What is more likely is that the French presidential election result leads to negotiations on France's status; and with or without a Dave's Deal Equivalent (DDE), a Frexit referendum could ensue before the end of this year. One route then is the "reform of Europe", which - paper bags at the ready - may even give a role to Tony Blair.
http://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/london-life/libdem-leader-tim-farron-on-article-50-and-the-end-of-his-eu-dream-a3501111.html
Its a weapon, a real one.
https://twitter.com/thesundaysport/status/847062382236987392
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaw5Zm6EskA
http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86427
His blog has spent far more time over the years attacking fellow anti-EU campaigners than it has the EU or its supporters.
Cheers! @Mortimer @isam @Tissue_Price @Fat_Steve @Hertsmere_Pubgoer and everyone else.
As I understand George Osborne's position it is "maximum possible control over immigration, given maximum access to the single market."
I do not see that these positions are reconcilable. Thus there is no place for George Osborne in May's Ministry.
Stay classy, Sean.
https://twitter.com/bdstanley/status/847183332911845376
'IndyRef2 odds: Scotland odds-on to vote for independence in second Scottish Independence Referendum
..Although the UK government insists a second referendum on Scottish Independence will be blocked until after the Brexit process has been completed, bookmakers William Hill make it just 8/15 that IndyRef2 takes place before the end of 2020.
Hill's spokesman Graham Sharpe told BetOnPolitics.co.uk: "'The first Scottish Referendum set a new political betting record when over £10million was gambled on the outcome industry-wide, and the next one already looks set to produce a bigger turnover than that."
At time of writing, the same firm make it 4/6 that when the Scottish Referendum does take place, Scotland will vote in favour of Independence (11/10 that the country votes against independence).'
http://tinyurl.com/l6wjch4
Zzzzzzzzz
Viewcode: Knock it off, Sunil!
We need to play the security card very carefully. It looks to have been very clumsily played today, hence the push-back.