politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » For the record where BREXIT opinion stood on Article 50 day
Comments
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At last the two of you have achieved a degree of empathy.SeanT said:
Fair enough, you're feeling even worse than me, because you're actually going totally, publicly embarrassingly mad.AlastairMeeks said:
You're dead wrong, you don't understand my feelings at all. The country that I once felt was mine has elected for insularity prompted by panderers to xenophobia. I don't regard it as political fraud, I regard it as national self-mutilation.SeanT said:
If it helps, you have my sympathiesAlastairMeeks said:The next turn of the downward spiral has taken place. Things will continue to get worse for sometime yet.
For the last 30 years I have felt that my democratic rights, and my precious identity, as a freeborn Briton, governed by the Mother of Parliaments which I help to elect, were slowly and stealthily being taken away from me, without my permission. And sometimes this was done, as I saw it, by acts of deliberate political fraud - e.g. the denied referendum on Lisbon.
That made me angry and sad, and by the end almost despairing.
You may think my feelings were ridiculous, but this is sincerely what I felt, and it hurt.
I imagine this is what hardcore Remainers and europhiles are now feeling, the only difference is that you're experiencing it over months, rather than decades. It is difficult to know which is more painful.
So there it is: I understand your pain, and it's one reason I won't be celebrating wildly today. Too many of my friends are sad or scared. The champagne is back in the fridge.
Britain will become a backwater, sour and introverted. The challenges of globalisation will hit it still harder than they would have done as the country is constantly distracted for years by needless rows with its closest neighbours and trading partners. The country has been taken over by fifth raters with a manic obsession. Their failures will be blamed by their fellow fruitcakes on the EU.
Immigration will come down because the brightest and best will opt to go elsewhere rather than work in a country which has a devalued currency and makes its dislike of immigration plain.
My feelings about this are fairly simple. I'll be ok, but I feel pity for the people who will be shafted by this act of egregious stupidity and contempt for the people who have persuaded themselves that dealing with the complexities of the 21st century is just too much of a chore.
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I was forced to drink 3* of champagne glasses at breakfast.SeanT said:
I'm not criticising anybody for celebrating! - especially those, like you, who took an active part in the LEAVE campaign - you earned it, go out and get sloshed.Casino_Royale said:
Speak for yourself: I'm cracking open a glass (or three) with friends tonight.SeanT said:
If it helps, you have my sympathiesAlastairMeeks said:The next turn of the downward spiral has taken place. Things will continue to get worse for sometime yet.
For the last 30 years I have felt that my democratic rights, and my precious identity, as a freeborn Briton, governed by the Mother of Parliaments which I help to elect, were slowly and stealthily being taken away from me, without my permission. And sometimes this was done, as I saw it, by acts of deliberate political fraud - e.g. the denied referendum on Lisbon.
That made me angry and sad, and by the end almost despairing.
You may think my feelings were ridiculous, but this is sincerely what I felt, and it hurt.
I imagine this is what hardcore Remainers and europhiles are now feeling, the only difference is that you're experiencing it over months, rather than decades. It is difficult to know which is more painful.
So there it is: I understand your pain, and it's one reason I won't be celebrating wildly today. Too many of my friends are sad or scared. The champagne is back in the fridge.
Unfortunately, this will be in a different part of Town to the pb.com do. But I wish everyone well who attends.
Special hat-tip to Mortimer for taking the lead in organising this, and persevering with doing so.
It's just that I have quite a lot of very unhappy Remainer friends, and it just doesn't feel right, today of all days, to be cracking open (yet another) bottle of champagne. As I say, I have a sense of what they are feeling.
That said, I will have a quiet glass tomorrow, maybe.... And when we finally leave: OMG HOOKERS AND BLOW
* Would have been 2 but the Canadians we were talking to last night arrived for breakfast as I finished the second glass and it would have been rude to leave.0 -
Irish dairy farmers demand that EU put Ireland first. "Wait and see not acceptable"
http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/ireland-must-look-to-its-own-national-interest-as-article-50-is-triggered/0 -
This little chap would no doubt echo thatSandyRentool said:In the manner of a 5 year old on a long journey:
Brexit - Are we nearly there yet?
http://www.thenational.scot/news/15187666.Saltire_baby_Charlie_becomes_on_one_of_the_youngest_members_of_the_SNP/0 -
You will have a choice in the 2020 general election.logical_song said:
You say "We either choose ..." and offer 4 options. How do we make our choice?Fernando said:What exactly does this tracker mean? Are we being asked in retrospect to decide whether the vote in June last year was the right one, or being asked how we would vote now given the changed circumstances?
The Remain option of a semi-detached niche, outside Schengen, outside the eurozone and not signed up to ever closer union, is no longer on offer. The Remain coalition has fractured. We either choose
1. EU membership probably on very different terms from those we had enjoyed
2. EEA membership
3. Keir Starmer's version of the EEA with a negotiated "fair management of migration"
4. Whatever Teresa May manages to negotiate.
Whatever is the case, the Remain coalition no longer exists.
We now have to sit back and wait for events to unfold. If the electorate come to the conclusion, as shown in the tracker, that we have made a terrible mistake it will be up to UK and Euro politicians to handle that.0 -
I'm not sure about that - I'm very proud at the way people have moved on so quickly.tlg86 said:Looking at the issues index, I see the NHS has come down 7 points - I can't believe that has anything to do with the BBC/Sky not focusing upon it quite so much the last few weeks.
And expect the terrorism category to rebound in April.0 -
I work in Remainer central: an office in the heart of Canary Wharf, full of the professional internationalist elites, where almost everyone is glum, or ignoring the news, and assumes everyone else feels the same.SeanT said:
I'm not criticising anybody for celebrating! - especially those, like you, who took an active part in the LEAVE campaign - you earned it, go out and get sloshed.Casino_Royale said:
Speak for yourself: I'm cracking open a glass (or three) with friends tonight.SeanT said:
If it helps, you have my sympathiesAlastairMeeks said:The next turn of the downward spiral has taken place. Things will continue to get worse for sometime yet.
For the last 30 years I have felt that my democratic rights, and my precious identity, as a freeborn Briton, governed by the Mother of Parliaments which I help to elect, were slowly and stealthily being taken away from me, without my permission. And sometimes this was done, as I saw it, by acts of deliberate political fraud - e.g. the denied referendum on Lisbon.
That made me angry and sad, and by the end almost despairing.
You may think my feelings were ridiculous, but this is sincerely what I felt, and it hurt.
I imagine this is what hardcore Remainers and europhiles are now feeling, the only difference is that you're experiencing it over months, rather than decades. It is difficult to know which is more painful.
So there it is: I understand your pain, and it's one reason I won't be celebrating wildly today. Too many of my friends are sad or scared. The champagne is back in the fridge.
Unfortunately, this will be in a different part of Town to the pb.com do. But I wish everyone well who attends.
Special hat-tip to Mortimer for taking the lead in organising this, and persevering with doing so.
It's just that I have quite a lot of very unhappy Remainer friends, and it just doesn't feel right, today of all days, to be cracking open (yet another) bottle of champagne. As I say, I have a sense of what they are feeling.
That said, I will have a quiet glass tomorrow, maybe.... And when we finally leave: OMG HOOKERS AND BLOW
And yet, and yet, there are a few of us here (a handful, a small but not miniscule handful) who have a wry smile on their faces as they sit as their desks and check the BBC newsfeed.
I know who they are. And we are happy.0 -
Nope. We're lost in the roundabout system somewhere near Milton Keynes, we think. Satnav no longer works.SandyRentool said:In the manner of a 5 year old on a long journey:
Brexit - Are we nearly there yet?0 -
The Dutch on food production:
"On further-processed products, some existing EU assembly plants could relocate to the UK because EU import tariffs are "typically structured in such a way that further-processed products receive higher import protection than raw materials", the report said. However, "labour availability also has to be taken into account".0 -
The security stuff was far from silly. It was a reminder to our EU friends that (as they are very fond indeed of reminding us) decisions have consequences, and no deal would be bad for both sides.SouthamObserver said:Put the swivel-eyed right back in its box, ignore braying anti-European editors and always try to see things from the other viewpoint, then we might just get a workable deal. I am probably alone, but for me as a Remainer today has not been a bad start (the silly security stuff aside). Maybe it's the lag.
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Lol - You mean the LD vote was so weak it couldn't cope. That ain't gonna fly.MikeSmithson said:
If it wasn't for the Tory expenses strategy in marginal seats they wouldn't have had a majority.Sunil_Prasannan said:
If it weren't for Dave's referendum, Brexit would never have happened?TheScreamingEagles said:I was more upset at Dave resigning than over the triggering of Article 50.
But the next 18 months are going to make or break a few political careers and possibly the country.0 -
I am afraid I do see a swivel-eyed anti-EU grouping. Not all Leavers, by a long chalk, but those on the right who advocate walking away because they need us more than we need them, and who talk of the EUSSR.Casino_Royale said:
Seconded.SouthamObserver said:Put the swivel-eyed right back in its box, ignore braying anti-European editors and always try to see things from the other viewpoint, then we might just get a workable deal. I am probably alone, but for me as a Remainer today has not been a bad start (the silly security stuff aside). Maybe it's the lag.
But I do wish you'd stop using the phrase "swivel-eyed". Every time you do, I lose a little bit of respect for you.
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Is it the glimpse of Union Jack underpants in the gents which gives it away?Casino_Royale said:And yet, and yet, there are a few of us here (a handful, a small but not miniscule handful) who have a wry smile on their faces as they sit as their desks and check the BBC newsfeed.
I know who they are. And we are happy.0 -
We have smocking in our pub when the Morris Men come.BigRich said:
I'm also not bothered by the passport thing ether, But don't see why we can not make it the customer/company's chose if they what to buy/sell in pounds or Kilograms let them. Same for smocking in pubs, and the light bulb thing. (don't think the Pub smocking ban was EU related though)Philip_Thompson said:
I'd say a straight "no" across the board except for the passport colour to which I couldn't care less.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
'If it's yellow, let it mellow', is, I believe, the phrase.OldKingCole said:
A senior official from the local Water Co, talking to a group of which I’m a member said recently of flushing the toilet ‘if it’s brown send it down; if it’s wet, wait a bit’david_herdson said:
Why?! Surely if you're bothered about the noise, you just use a different toilet in a more remote part of the house?TheScreamingEagles said:What a nation of fecking mingers we are. 49%!!!!!
https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/847048843472588800
And, Mr Her[d]son, that’s a bit hard on the servants. After all they’ve got to get up early to light the fire.0 -
No what it proves (and this is not just an EU issue but a general one about these trackers and why they are of dubious value) is that public opinion reflects what is being pushed in the media. Right now Brexit is the big issue and so it is top of the list. As already mentioned, when the media start banging on about the winter NHS crisis or NHS funding in general that once again will become the big issue.Stark_Dawning said:
Doesn't that rather prove Mike's point? In the safe and comfortable era of EU membership no one was bothered. But now...SeanT said:
That sneering, repetitive joke by our Otherwise Genial Host has, it must be said, rather come back to bite him on his Smithsonian arse.Casino_Royale said:No one cares about Europe.
This is why Mike's reliance on these trackers to prove that the public 'don't give a Monkey's' about the EU as an issue was always daft. It assumed not only that people could only be concerned about one or two things at once but also that these concerns were independent of the media narrative. The media drives the narrative and pushes issues up the agenda not the other way round.0 -
I'll be about for the duration - happy to eat there or elsewhereisam said:
I thought it was just a drink? I reckon I'll be there 730-8, is that too late?Sean_F said:
I should get there at 6.45, and will eat something there.BigRich said:A question for those intending to gather at Trucklers this evening. I don't think I can be there till about 1900, what time where we going to sit down for food?
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Threatening our own security is silly. The EU knows that.Richard_Nabavi said:
The security stuff was far from silly. It was a reminder to our EU friends that (as they are very fond indeed of reminding us) decisions have consequences, and no deal would be bad for both sides.SouthamObserver said:Put the swivel-eyed right back in its box, ignore braying anti-European editors and always try to see things from the other viewpoint, then we might just get a workable deal. I am probably alone, but for me as a Remainer today has not been a bad start (the silly security stuff aside). Maybe it's the lag.
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The LD’s got a dreadful hammering in the press, day after day.felix said:
Lol - You mean the LD vote was so weak it couldn't cope. That ain't gonna fly.MikeSmithson said:
If it wasn't for the Tory expenses strategy in marginal seats they wouldn't have had a majority.Sunil_Prasannan said:
If it weren't for Dave's referendum, Brexit would never have happened?TheScreamingEagles said:I was more upset at Dave resigning than over the triggering of Article 50.
But the next 18 months are going to make or break a few political careers and possibly the country.0 -
Perhaps use it more judiciously then?SouthamObserver said:
I am afraid I do see a swivel-eyed anti-EU grouping. Not all Leavers, by a long chalk, but those on the right who advocate walking away because they need us more than we need them, and who talk of the EUSSR.Casino_Royale said:
Seconded.SouthamObserver said:Put the swivel-eyed right back in its box, ignore braying anti-European editors and always try to see things from the other viewpoint, then we might just get a workable deal. I am probably alone, but for me as a Remainer today has not been a bad start (the silly security stuff aside). Maybe it's the lag.
But I do wish you'd stop using the phrase "swivel-eyed". Every time you do, I lose a little bit of respect for you.
You've used it a lot recently, and not particularly discriminatively, as far as I can tell.0 -
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In pans mainly :-)IanB2 said:
Napoleon's efforts were clearly wasted on you. A litre of (most) liquids weighs a kilogram, and 100 ml weighs 100 grams. What's not to like? Doubtless you still do your cooking recipes in cups?SouthamObserver said:
I am Remain and pounds and ounces. Feet and inches, too!williamglenn said:The pounds and ounces question is the clearest 'neutral' indicator of a huge age divide between Leave and Remain.
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Lol. You jest.. but..Richard_Nabavi said:
Is it the glimpse of Union Jack underpants in the gents which gives it away?Casino_Royale said:And yet, and yet, there are a few of us here (a handful, a small but not miniscule handful) who have a wry smile on their faces as they sit as their desks and check the BBC newsfeed.
I know who they are. And we are happy.0 -
EU27 QMV.calum said:Q3 Step 3 is interesting
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-17-648_en.htm0 -
I think you're being overly negative and it's not clear to me why leaving the EU will mean the 'brightest and best' no longer want to come here. As for the challenges of globalisation, since none of our leaders have made a committed effort to do anything over a generation most people will think plus ca change. As for dealing with the complexities of 21st century life - that would appear to be beyond the vast majority of the 'liberal internationalists' too. Indeed their lack of answers might help to explain the Brexit vote somewhat. This is a 'political' movement that's been driven by individualism and self-enrichment.AlastairMeeks said:
You're dead wrong, you don't understand my feelings at all. The country that I once felt was mine has elected for insularity prompted by panderers to xenophobia. I don't regard it as political fraud, I regard it as national self-mutilation.SeanT said:
If it helps, you have my sympathiesAlastairMeeks said:The next turn of the downward spiral has taken place. Things will continue to get worse for sometime yet.
For the last 30 years I have felt that my democratic rights, and my precious identity, as a freeborn Briton, governed by the Mother of Parliaments which I help to elect, were slowly and stealthily being taken away from me, without my permission. And sometimes this was done, as I saw it, by acts of deliberate political fraud - e.g. the denied referendum on Lisbon.
That made me angry and sad, and by the end almost despairing.
You may think my feelings were ridiculous, but this is sincerely what I felt, and it hurt.
I imagine this is what hardcore Remainers and europhiles are now feeling, the only difference is that you're experiencing it over months, rather than decades. It is difficult to know which is more painful.
So there it is: I understand your pain, and it's one reason I won't be celebrating wildly today. Too many of my friends are sad or scared. The champagne is back in the fridge.
Britain will become a backwater, sour and introverted. The challenges of globalisation will hit it still harder than they would have done as the country is constantly distracted for years by needless rows with its closest neighbours and trading partners. The country has been taken over by fifth raters with a manic obsession. Their failures will be blamed by their fellow fruitcakes on the EU.
Immigration will come down because the brightest and best will opt to go elsewhere rather than work in a country which has a devalued currency and makes its dislike of immigration plain.
My feelings about this are fairly simple. I'll be ok, but I feel pity for the people who will be shafted by this act of egregious stupidity and contempt for the people who have persuaded themselves that dealing with the complexities of the 21st century is just too much of a chore.0 -
Or alternatively, you might be making too much of it. The EU is neither necessary nor sufficient to deal with the complexities of the 21st century. Indeed, in its current form, it's not at all clear whether it's a net help or hindrance.AlastairMeeks said:
You're dead wrong, you don't understand my feelings at all. The country that I once felt was mine has elected for insularity prompted by panderers to xenophobia. I don't regard it as political fraud, I regard it as national self-mutilation.SeanT said:
If it helps, you have my sympathiesAlastairMeeks said:The next turn of the downward spiral has taken place. Things will continue to get worse for sometime yet.
For the last 30 years I have felt that my democratic rights, and my precious identity, as a freeborn Briton, governed by the Mother of Parliaments which I help to elect, were slowly and stealthily being taken away from me, without my permission. And sometimes this was done, as I saw it, by acts of deliberate political fraud - e.g. the denied referendum on Lisbon.
That made me angry and sad, and by the end almost despairing.
You may think my feelings were ridiculous, but this is sincerely what I felt, and it hurt.
I imagine this is what hardcore Remainers and europhiles are now feeling, the only difference is that you're experiencing it over months, rather than decades. It is difficult to know which is more painful.
So there it is: I understand your pain, and it's one reason I won't be celebrating wildly today. Too many of my friends are sad or scared. The champagne is back in the fridge.
Britain will become a backwater, sour and introverted. The challenges of globalisation will hit it still harder than they would have done as the country is constantly distracted for years by needless rows with its closest neighbours and trading partners. The country has been taken over by fifth raters with a manic obsession. Their failures will be blamed by their fellow fruitcakes on the EU.
Immigration will come down because the brightest and best will opt to go elsewhere rather than work in a country which has a devalued currency and makes its dislike of immigration plain.
My feelings about this are fairly simple. I'll be ok, but I feel pity for the people who will be shafted by this act of egregious stupidity and contempt for the people who have persuaded themselves that dealing with the complexities of the 21st century is just too much of a chore.
Still, at least you're on to anger. AC Grayling was giving a fine example of denial earlier.0 -
It has been obvious for some time than many Leavers place no value on basic human decency. The Prime Minister is happy to use millions of people as a bargaining chip and now she is willing to use security and the threat to life entailed in that as something to barter with.Sean_F said:
It's just a question of valuing different things. The things that you and I value aren't valued by Alistair Meeks and vice versa.SeanT said:
Fair enough, you're feeling even worse than me, because you're actually going totally, publicly embarrassingly mad.AlastairMeeks said:
You're dead wrong, you don't understand my feelings at all. The country that I once felt was mine has elected for insularity prompted by panderers to xenophobia. I don't regard it as political fraud, I regard it as national self-mutilation.
Britain will become a backwater, sour and introverted. The challenges of globalisation will hit it still harder than they would have done as the country is constantly distracted for years by needless rows with its closest neighbours and trading partners. The country has been taken over by fifth raters with a manic obsession. Their failures will be blamed by their fellow fruitcakes on the EU.
Immigration will come down because the brightest and best will opt to go elsewhere rather than work in a country which has a devalued currency and makes its dislike of immigration plain.
My feelings about this are fairly simple. I'll be ok, but I feel pity for the people who will be shafted by this act of egregious stupidity and contempt for the people who have persuaded themselves that dealing with the complexities of the 21st century is just too much of a chore.
I will never be reconciled to such values.0 -
Tissue_Price said:
I'll be about for the duration - happy to eat there or elsewhereisam said:
I thought it was just a drink? I reckon I'll be there 730-8, is that too late?Sean_F said:
I should get there at 6.45, and will eat something there.BigRich said:A question for those intending to gather at Trucklers this evening. I don't think I can be there till about 1900, what time where we going to sit down for food?
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Good afternoon, everyone.0
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You are using an emotive word. No-one (on the UK side) is threatening anything; instead we are pointing out the benefits to both sides of a comprehensive agreement covering a wide range of issues. Unfortunately, on the EU27 side, some politicians are issuing threats, and they are also persisting with the completely absurd, and potentially extremely dangerous, line that we can't agree the outline of the final deal until after we leave. That is manifestly bonkers, and security is one of the reasons why it is manifestly bonkers. Theresa May is absolutely right to point this out.SouthamObserver said:
Threatening our own security is silly. The EU knows that.Richard_Nabavi said:
The security stuff was far from silly. It was a reminder to our EU friends that (as they are very fond indeed of reminding us) decisions have consequences, and no deal would be bad for both sides.SouthamObserver said:Put the swivel-eyed right back in its box, ignore braying anti-European editors and always try to see things from the other viewpoint, then we might just get a workable deal. I am probably alone, but for me as a Remainer today has not been a bad start (the silly security stuff aside). Maybe it's the lag.
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No, they won't. Because - here's the thing - their objection is really about values, not economics.SeanT said:
Yep, and hopefully by then the Remainers will have cried all their endless tears, and realised what a good thing Brexit is, and we can have a big PB Brexit knees-up, all together.Casino_Royale said:
Now.. THAT's the time for some serious champagne.TheScreamingEagles said:@steve_hawkes: No10 makes clear - we leave the EU when "Big Ben bongs at midnight" on March 29/30 2019
I expect even Mister Meeks and williamglenn will be seeing the bright side by then, and will be bringing bottles of bubbly and a merry quip or two. Plus a cheque for £1000.
Long-term being in the EU (or not) doesn't matter a fig to our economic prosperity.
But The Debate Will Never End.
So drink*. DRINK.
(*paid for by William's cheque)0 -
You've just proven with all that vileness above that their is nothing sour in Britain or among most of it's people except your rather absurd bitterness because the vote went against you.AlastairMeeks said:
You're dead wrong, you don't understand my feelings at all. The country that I once felt was mine has elected for insularity prompted by panderers to xenophobia. I don't regard it as political fraud, I regard it as national self-mutilation.SeanT said:
If it helps, you have my sympathiesAlastairMeeks said:The next turn of the downward spiral has taken place. Things will continue to get worse for sometime yet.
For the last 30 years I have felt that my democratic rights, and my precious identity, as a freeborn Briton, governed by the Mother of Parliaments which I help to elect, were slowly and stealthily being taken away from me, without my permission. And sometimes this was done, as I saw it, by acts of deliberate political fraud - e.g. the denied referendum on Lisbon.
That made me angry and sad, and by the end almost despairing.
You may think my feelings were ridiculous, but this is sincerely what I felt, and it hurt.
I imagine this is what hardcore Remainers and europhiles are now feeling, the only difference is that you're experiencing it over months, rather than decades. It is difficult to know which is more painful.
So there it is: I understand your pain, and it's one reason I won't be celebrating wildly today. Too many of my friends are sad or scared. The champagne is back in the fridge.
Britain will become a backwater, sour and introverted. The challenges of globalisation will hit it still harder than they would have done as the country is constantly distracted for years by needless rows with its closest neighbours and trading partners. The country has been taken over by fifth raters with a manic obsession. Their failures will be blamed by their fellow fruitcakes on the EU.
Immigration will come down because the brightest and best will opt to go elsewhere rather than work in a country which has a devalued currency and makes its dislike of immigration plain.
My feelings about this are fairly simple. I'll be ok, but I feel pity for the people who will be shafted by this act of egregious stupidity and contempt for the people who have persuaded themselves that dealing with the complexities of the 21st century is just too much of a chore.
Just embarrassing really.0 -
AlastairMeeks said:
You're dead wrong, you don't understand my feelings at all. The country that I once felt was mine has elected for insularity prompted by panderers to xenophobia. I don't regard it as political fraud, I regard it as national self-mutilation.
AlastairMeeks said:My feelings about this are fairly simple. I'll be ok, but I feel pity for the people who will be shafted by this act of egregious stupidity and contempt for the people who have persuaded themselves that dealing with the complexities of the 21st century is just too much of a chore.
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I am unlike other Leavers.
I detest capital and corporal punishment.
But I'd really, really like to bill my services in guineas.0 -
Spot on.SouthamObserver said:Put the swivel-eyed right back in its box, ignore braying anti-European editors and always try to see things from the other viewpoint, then we might just get a workable deal. I am probably alone, but for me as a Remainer today has not been a bad start (the silly security stuff aside). Maybe it's the lag.
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Once triggered, can Article 50 be revoked?calum said:Q3 Step 3 is interesting
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-17-648_en.htm
It is up to the United Kingdom to trigger Article 50. But once triggered, it cannot be unilaterally reversed. Notification is a point of no return. Article 50 does not provide for the unilateral withdrawal of notification.0 -
Tessy really has the put down to the SNP off pat.
"A vote for Scottish independence in 2014 was a vote to leave the EU".0 -
Yep.Richard_Nabavi said:
You are using an emotive word. No-one (on the UK side) is threatening anything; instead we are pointing out the benefits to both sides of a comprehensive agreement covering a wide range of issues. Unfortunately, on the EU27 side, some politicians are issuing threats, and they are also persisting with the completely absurd, and potentially extremely dangerous, line that we can't agree the outline of the final deal until after we leave. That is manifestly bonkers, and security is one of the reasons why it is manifestly bonkers. Theresa May is absolutely right to point this out.SouthamObserver said:
Threatening our own security is silly. The EU knows that.Richard_Nabavi said:
The security stuff was far from silly. It was a reminder to our EU friends that (as they are very fond indeed of reminding us) decisions have consequences, and no deal would be bad for both sides.SouthamObserver said:Put the swivel-eyed right back in its box, ignore braying anti-European editors and always try to see things from the other viewpoint, then we might just get a workable deal. I am probably alone, but for me as a Remainer today has not been a bad start (the silly security stuff aside). Maybe it's the lag.
IDS was very clear on this on WaO. This is not a threat. It is a simple reflection of the fact that our security arrangements with the EU are through a set of agreements which will have to be reformalised once we leave. It is important that these are formal arrangements rather than ad hoc because of the large number of different countries involved and their differing attitudes to things like privacy, personal liberty and intelligence. There are also the issues of the sharing of intelligence from organisations outside the EU who might have concerns about where their intelligence goes.
So May is simply making clear that we need formal arrangements on this and that they will develop alongside all the other talks on Brexit and trade deals.0 -
Why do people use introverted as a pejorative term? Half the population (almost exactly) is introverted.0
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The EU is neither necessary nor sufficient to deal with the complexities of the 21st century, I absolutely agree. But Leaving in the manner campaigned upon is an unmitigated disaster.david_herdson said:
Or alternatively, you might be making too much of it. The EU is neither necessary nor sufficient to deal with the complexities of the 21st century. Indeed, in its current form, it's not at all clear whether it's a net help or hindrance.AlastairMeeks said:
You're dead wrong, you don't understand my feelings at all. The country that I once felt was mine has elected for insularity prompted by panderers to xenophobia. I don't regard it as political fraud, I regard it as national self-mutilation.SeanT said:
If it helps, you have my sympathiesAlastairMeeks said:The next turn of the downward spiral has taken place. Things will continue to get worse for sometime yet.
For the last 30 years I have felt that my democratic rights, and my precious identity, as a freeborn Briton, governed by the Mother of Parliaments which I help to elect, were slowly and stealthily being taken away from me, without my permission. And sometimes this was done, as I saw it, by acts of deliberate political fraud - e.g. the denied referendum on Lisbon.
That made me angry and sad, and by the end almost despairing.
You may think my feelings were ridiculous, but this is sincerely what I felt, and it hurt.
I imagine this is what hardcore Remainers and europhiles are now feeling, the only difference is that you're experiencing it over months, rather than decades. It is difficult to know which is more painful.
So there it is: I understand your pain, and it's one reason I won't be celebrating wildly today. Too many of my friends are sad or scared. The champagne is back in the fridge.
Britain will become a backwater, sour and introverted. The challenges of globalisation will hit it still harder than they would have done as the country is constantly distracted for years by needless rows with its closest neighbours and trading partners. The country has been taken over by fifth raters with a manic obsession. Their failures will be blamed by their fellow fruitcakes on the EU.
Immigration will come down because the brightest and best will opt to go elsewhere rather than work in a country which has a devalued currency and makes its dislike of immigration plain.
My feelings about this are fairly simple. I'll be ok, but I feel pity for the people who will be shafted by this act of egregious stupidity and contempt for the people who have persuaded themselves that dealing with the complexities of the 21st century is just too much of a chore.
Still, at least you're on to anger. AC Grayling was giving a fine example of denial earlier.0 -
Oh dear - have a cup of tea.. or something.AlastairMeeks said:
It has been obvious for some time than many Leavers place no value on basic human decency. The Prime Minister is happy to use millions of people as a bargaining chip and now she is willing to use security and the threat to life entailed in that as something to barter with.Sean_F said:
It's just a question of valuing different things. The things that you and I value aren't valued by Alistair Meeks and vice versa.SeanT said:
Fair enough, you're feeling even worse than me, because you're actually going totally, publicly embarrassingly mad.AlastairMeeks said:
You're dead wrong, you don't understand my feelings at all. The country that I once felt was mine has elected for insularity prompted by panderers to xenophobia. I don't regard it as political fraud, I regard it as national self-mutilation.
Britain will become a backwater, sour and introverted. The challenges of globalisation will hit it still harder than they would have done as the country is constantly distracted for years by needless rows with its closest neighbours and trading partners. The country has been taken over by fifth raters with a manic obsession. Their failures will be blamed by their fellow fruitcakes on the EU.
Immigration will come down because the brightest and best will opt to go elsewhere rather than work in a country which has a devalued currency and makes its dislike of immigration plain.
My feelings about this are fairly simple. I'll be ok, but I feel pity for the people who will be shafted by this act of egregious stupidity and contempt for the people who have persuaded themselves that dealing with the complexities of the 21st century is just too much of a chore.
I will never be reconciled to such values.0 -
No, I don't buy that. It looks like an empty threat designed for domestic consumption. I do not believe the PM would ever do anything deliberately to reduce our security. And it would be a decision for her to make. The EU knows this and that it's just a gesture to her troublesome right in what is otherwise quite a conciliatory, realistic opening move.Richard_Nabavi said:
You are using an emotive word. No-one (on the UK side) is threatening anything; instead we are pointing out the benefits to both sides of a comprehensive agreement covering a wide range of issues. Unfortunately, on the EU27 side, some politicians are issuing threats, and they are also persisting with the completely absurd, and potentially extremely dangerous, line that we can't agree the outline of the final deal until after we leave. That is manifestly bonkers, and security is one of the reasons why it is manifestly bonkers. Theresa May is absolutely right to point this out.SouthamObserver said:
Threatening our own security is silly. The EU knows that.Richard_Nabavi said:
The security stuff was far from silly. It was a reminder to our EU friends that (as they are very fond indeed of reminding us) decisions have consequences, and no deal would be bad for both sides.SouthamObserver said:Put the swivel-eyed right back in its box, ignore braying anti-European editors and always try to see things from the other viewpoint, then we might just get a workable deal. I am probably alone, but for me as a Remainer today has not been a bad start (the silly security stuff aside). Maybe it's the lag.
0 -
You are my soul mate... until I find something we disagree on. Then you are my mortal enemy.Casino_Royale said:I am unlike other Leavers.
I detest capital and corporal punishment.
But I'd really, really like to bill my services in guineas.
0 -
F1: from the gossip column, but also seen elsewhere earlier, Red Bull reckons it'll be Canada before they get a proper engine upgrade.
Got a suspicion they might have some difficulty in China. Many more straights, from memory, there than in Oz.
Also, this: "Toto Wolff says it was mainly a contractual issue that halted negotiations between Mercedes and Fernando Alonso ahead of the 2017 season."
That does sound like: "We'll hire Alonso if we can" to me.
There have also been rumours, probably tosh, that Hamilton may retire soon.0 -
Jesus H...... a fucking pbCom get together spearheaded by The neo fascist Mortimer to celebrate Article 50.......
I'd prefer to complete a shift in the Rikers Island prison cells touching my toes.......0 -
I'm curious as to why you chose the Irish tricolour, rather than the EU flag as your avatar!Beverley_C said:AlastairMeeks said:You're dead wrong, you don't understand my feelings at all. The country that I once felt was mine has elected for insularity prompted by panderers to xenophobia. I don't regard it as political fraud, I regard it as national self-mutilation.
AlastairMeeks said:My feelings about this are fairly simple. I'll be ok, but I feel pity for the people who will be shafted by this act of egregious stupidity and contempt for the people who have persuaded themselves that dealing with the complexities of the 21st century is just too much of a chore.
0 -
If you are valuing people on how they voted, she's a Remainer!AlastairMeeks said:
It has been obvious for some time than many Leavers place no value on basic human decency. The Prime Minister is happy to use millions of people as a bargaining chip and now she is willing to use security and the threat to life entailed in that as something to barter with.Sean_F said:
It's just a question of valuing different things. The things that you and I value aren't valued by Alistair Meeks and vice versa.SeanT said:
Fair enough, you're feeling even worse than me, because you're actually going totally, publicly embarrassingly mad.AlastairMeeks said:
You're dead wrong, you don't understand my feelings at all. The country that I once felt was mine has elected for insularity prompted by panderers to xenophobia. I don't regard it as political fraud, I regard it as national self-mutilation.
Britain will become a backwater, sour and introverted. The challenges of globalisation will hit it still harder than they would have done as the country is constantly distracted for years by needless rows with its closest neighbours and trading partners. The country has been taken over by fifth raters with a manic obsession. Their failures will be blamed by their fellow fruitcakes on the EU.
Immigration will come down because the brightest and best will opt to go elsewhere rather than work in a country which has a devalued currency and makes its dislike of immigration plain.
My feelings about this are fairly simple. I'll be ok, but I feel pity for the people who will be shafted by this act of egregious stupidity and contempt for the people who have persuaded themselves that dealing with the complexities of the 21st century is just too much of a chore.
I will never be reconciled to such values.
Ugh they sicken me
0 -
-
Of course she wouldn't deliberately do anything to damage our security, or indeed that of our EU friends. But as Richard T points out, if we crash out without a deal then much of the institutional and legal framework for security cooperation (including extradition) will collapse on the 29th March 2019. The same is true of lots of other areas - aviation, for example.SouthamObserver said:No, I don't buy that. It looks like an empty threat designed for domestic consumption. I do not believe the PM would ever do anything deliberately to reduce our security. And it would be a decision for her to make. The EU knows this and that it's just a gesture to her troublesome right in what is otherwise quite a conciliatory, realistic opening move.
At present, our EU friends, or some of them, seem to think this doesn't matter, and that we can discuss all that sometime in the distant future. Hopefully they will see sense, although there's a risk they won't.0 -
No, Universities like where I work are remainer centralCasino_Royale said:
I work in Remainer central: an office in the heart of Canary Wharf, full of the professional internationalist elites, where almost everyone is glum, or ignoring the news, and assumes everyone else feels the same.SeanT said:
I'm not criticising anybody for celebrating! - especially those, like you, who took an active part in the LEAVE campaign - you earned it, go out and get sloshed.Casino_Royale said:
Speak for yourself: I'm cracking open a glass (or three) with friends tonight.SeanT said:
If it helps, you have my sympathiesAlastairMeeks said:The next turn of the downward spiral has taken place. Things will continue to get worse for sometime yet.
For the last 30 years I have felt that my democratic rights, and my precious identity, as a freeborn Briton, governed by the Mother of Parliaments which I help to elect, were slowly and stealthily being taken away from me, without my permission. And sometimes this was done, as I saw it, by acts of deliberate political fraud - e.g. the denied referendum on Lisbon.
That made me angry and sad, and by the end almost despairing.
You may think my feelings were ridiculous, but this is sincerely what I felt, and it hurt.
I imagine this is what hardcore Remainers and europhiles are now feeling, the only difference is that you're experiencing it over months, rather than decades. It is difficult to know which is more painful.
So there it is: I understand your pain, and it's one reason I won't be celebrating wildly today. Too many of my friends are sad or scared. The champagne is back in the fridge.
Unfortunately, this will be in a different part of Town to the pb.com do. But I wish everyone well who attends.
Special hat-tip to Mortimer for taking the lead in organising this, and persevering with doing so.
It's just that I have quite a lot of very unhappy Remainer friends, and it just doesn't feel right, today of all days, to be cracking open (yet another) bottle of champagne. As I say, I have a sense of what they are feeling.
That said, I will have a quiet glass tomorrow, maybe.... And when we finally leave: OMG HOOKERS AND BLOW 0 -
Paging @SeanT
Going on your theory of maximising experience in a lifetime with cash available have you considered signing up for :
https://www.blueorigin.com/astronaut-experience ?
Not sure how much the ticket will be - but it will be an out of this world (quite literally). The Telegraph or some such might consider subbing you too.0 -
Perhaps we just see what constitutes "basic human decency" differently.AlastairMeeks said:
It has been obvious for some time than many Leavers place no value on basic human decency. The Prime Minister is happy to use millions of people as a bargaining chip and now she is willing to use security and the threat to life entailed in that as something to barter with.Sean_F said:
It's just a question of valuing different things. The things that you and I value aren't valued by Alistair Meeks and vice versa.SeanT said:
Fair enough, you're feeling even worse than me, because you're actually going totally, publicly embarrassingly mad.AlastairMeeks said:
You're dead wrong, you don't understand my feelings at all. The country that I once felt was mine has elected for insularity prompted by panderers to xenophobia. I don't regard it as political fraud, I regard it as national self-mutilation.
Britain will become a backwater, sour and introverted. The challenges of globalisation will hit it still harder than they would have done as the country is constantly distracted for years by needless rows with its closest neighbours and trading partners. The country has been taken over by fifth raters with a manic obsession. Their failures will be blamed by their fellow fruitcakes on the EU.
Immigration will come down because the brightest and best will opt to go elsewhere rather than work in a country which has a devalued currency and makes its dislike of immigration plain.
My feelings about this are fairly simple. I'll be ok, but I feel pity for the people who will be shafted by this act of egregious stupidity and contempt for the people who have persuaded themselves that dealing with the complexities of the 21st century is just too much of a chore.
I will never be reconciled to such values.0 -
-
I'd happily go back to the old currency.Casino_Royale said:I am unlike other Leavers.
I detest capital and corporal punishment.
But I'd really, really like to bill my services in guineas.0 -
Time will tell on that.AlastairMeeks said:
The EU is neither necessary nor sufficient to deal with the complexities of the 21st century, I absolutely agree. But Leaving in the manner campaigned upon is an unmitigated disaster.david_herdson said:
Or alternatively, you might be making too much of it. The EU is neither necessary nor sufficient to deal with the complexities of the 21st century. Indeed, in its current form, it's not at all clear whether it's a net help or hindrance.AlastairMeeks said:
You're dead wrong, you don't understand my feelings at all. The country that I once felt was mine has elected for insularity prompted by panderers to xenophobia. I don't regard it as political fraud, I regard it as national self-mutilation.SeanT said:If it helps, you have my sympathies
For the last 30 years I have felt that my democratic rights, and my precious identity, as a freeborn Briton, governed by the Mother of Parliaments which I help to elect, were slowly and stealthily being taken away from me, without my permission. And sometimes this was done, as I saw it, by acts of deliberate political fraud - e.g. the denied referendum on Lisbon.
That made me angry and sad, and by the end almost despairing.
You may think my feelings were ridiculous, but this is sincerely what I felt, and it hurt.
I imagine this is what hardcore Remainers and europhiles are now feeling, the only difference is that you're experiencing it over months, rather than decades. It is difficult to know which is more painful.
So there it is: I understand your pain, and it's one reason I won't be celebrating wildly today. Too many of my friends are sad or scared. The champagne is back in the fridge.
Britain will become a backwater, sour and introverted. The challenges of globalisation will hit it still harder than they would have done as the country is constantly distracted for years by needless rows with its closest neighbours and trading partners. The country has been taken over by fifth raters with a manic obsession. Their failures will be blamed by their fellow fruitcakes on the EU.
Immigration will come down because the brightest and best will opt to go elsewhere rather than work in a country which has a devalued currency and makes its dislike of immigration plain.
My feelings about this are fairly simple. I'll be ok, but I feel pity for the people who will be shafted by this act of egregious stupidity and contempt for the people who have persuaded themselves that dealing with the complexities of the 21st century is just too much of a chore.
Still, at least you're on to anger. AC Grayling was giving a fine example of denial earlier.0 -
Because I have dual Irish / British citizenship.Sunil_Prasannan said:
I'm curious as to why you chose the Irish tricolour, rather than the EU flag as your avatar!Beverley_C said:AlastairMeeks said:You're dead wrong, you don't understand my feelings at all. The country that I once felt was mine has elected for insularity prompted by panderers to xenophobia. I don't regard it as political fraud, I regard it as national self-mutilation.
AlastairMeeks said:My feelings about this are fairly simple. I'll be ok, but I feel pity for the people who will be shafted by this act of egregious stupidity and contempt for the people who have persuaded themselves that dealing with the complexities of the 21st century is just too much of a chore.
0 -
Because she's proudly buggering off to Southern Ireland to escape Brexit.Sunil_Prasannan said:
I'm curious as to why you chose the Irish tricolour, rather than the EU flag as your avatar!Beverley_C said:AlastairMeeks said:You're dead wrong, you don't understand my feelings at all. The country that I once felt was mine has elected for insularity prompted by panderers to xenophobia. I don't regard it as political fraud, I regard it as national self-mutilation.
AlastairMeeks said:My feelings about this are fairly simple. I'll be ok, but I feel pity for the people who will be shafted by this act of egregious stupidity and contempt for the people who have persuaded themselves that dealing with the complexities of the 21st century is just too much of a chore.
Hopefully to a place with no internet connection but we'd never be that lucky.0 -
That question obviously just reflects what's in the news at any given time. Even though it's an open ended question, people won't bother to give more than about 3 answers on average.SeanT said:
That sneering, repetitive joke by our Otherwise Genial Host has, it must be said, rather come back to bite him on his Smithsonian arse.Casino_Royale said:No one cares about Europe.
Indeed it was that very same superior sneering, aimed at "cranky, obsessive" eurosceptics like me, which led, quite directly, to Brexit.
It made us even angrier and passionate, it fired up UKIP, it helped form the mindsets of people like Dan Hannan.0 -
Not most liquids. Simply water.IanB2 said:
Napoleon's efforts were clearly wasted on you. A litre of (most) liquids weighs a kilogram, and 100 ml weighs 100 grams. What's not to like? Doubtless you still do your cooking recipes in cups?SouthamObserver said:
I am Remain and pounds and ounces. Feet and inches, too!williamglenn said:The pounds and ounces question is the clearest 'neutral' indicator of a huge age divide between Leave and Remain.
http://www.endmemo.com/cconvert/kgl.php0 -
GeoffM - Wrong as usual.....GeoffM said:
Because she's proudly buggering off to Southern Ireland to escape Brexit.Sunil_Prasannan said:
I'm curious as to why you chose the Irish tricolour, rather than the EU flag as your avatar!Beverley_C said:AlastairMeeks said:You're dead wrong, you don't understand my feelings at all. The country that I once felt was mine has elected for insularity prompted by panderers to xenophobia. I don't regard it as political fraud, I regard it as national self-mutilation.
AlastairMeeks said:My feelings about this are fairly simple. I'll be ok, but I feel pity for the people who will be shafted by this act of egregious stupidity and contempt for the people who have persuaded themselves that dealing with the complexities of the 21st century is just too much of a chore.
Hopefully to a place with no internet connection but we'd never be that lucky.0 -
As a BME person, I would rather live in Britain than Alastair Meeks' Hungary.AlastairMeeks said:
You're dead wrong, you don't understand my feelings at all. The country that I once felt was mine has elected for insularity prompted by panderers to xenophobia. I don't regard it as political fraud, I regard it as national self-mutilation.0 -
I bet if it started sinking someone would think of something.SeanT said:
It's interestingly ambiguous, isn't it? But I wouldn't get your hopes up. The political momentum is overwhelming now. We're headed OUT, into the open sea, like a warship sailing out of Devonport harbour. There isn't room to turn around.williamglenn said:
Once triggered, can Article 50 be revoked?calum said:Q3 Step 3 is interesting
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-17-648_en.htm
It is up to the United Kingdom to trigger Article 50. But once triggered, it cannot be unilaterally reversed. Notification is a point of no return. Article 50 does not provide for the unilateral withdrawal of notification.
Full speed ahead backwards?0 -
Beverley_C said:
Because I have dual Irish / British citizenship.Sunil_Prasannan said:
I'm curious as to why you chose the Irish tricolour, rather than the EU flag as your avatar!Beverley_C said:AlastairMeeks said:You're dead wrong, you don't understand my feelings at all. The country that I once felt was mine has elected for insularity prompted by panderers to xenophobia. I don't regard it as political fraud, I regard it as national self-mutilation.
AlastairMeeks said:My feelings about this are fairly simple. I'll be ok, but I feel pity for the people who will be shafted by this act of egregious stupidity and contempt for the people who have persuaded themselves that dealing with the complexities of the 21st century is just too much of a chore.
Up the IRA!Ah, I see, fair enough.0 -
It was always flawed to imagine that immigration wasn't "Europe" in the issues index. Likewise the way it funnelled into concerns about housing, public services and wages. These things are inter-connected rather than discrete.
0 -
It's the passport thing - I know that.Beverley_C said:
GeoffM - Wrong as usual.....GeoffM said:
Because she's proudly buggering off to Southern Ireland to escape Brexit.Sunil_Prasannan said:
I'm curious as to why you chose the Irish tricolour, rather than the EU flag as your avatar!Beverley_C said:AlastairMeeks said:You're dead wrong, you don't understand my feelings at all. The country that I once felt was mine has elected for insularity prompted by panderers to xenophobia. I don't regard it as political fraud, I regard it as national self-mutilation.
AlastairMeeks said:My feelings about this are fairly simple. I'll be ok, but I feel pity for the people who will be shafted by this act of egregious stupidity and contempt for the people who have persuaded themselves that dealing with the complexities of the 21st century is just too much of a chore.
Hopefully to a place with no internet connection but we'd never be that lucky.
Though the no internet connection thing would have been nice.0 -
GBP 13 billion in annual payments would be ludicrous. It is more than the current net payments under full membership.SeanT said:A tweetcat amongst the euro-pigeons
https://twitter.com/philipjcowley/status/8470136129506058250 -
The final Leave date will surely be 1 January in whichever year. My operating assumption is that it'll be 2020 so it isn't pushed past the next GE.Casino_Royale said:
That makes sense.Richard_Nabavi said:An interesting comment from Jim Leaviss, Head of Retail Fixed Interest at M&G Investments:
...given the UK has access to the Single Market until 2019, businesses will likely react by stockpiling inventories in anticipation of the UK possibly having to trade under WTO rules after being removed from the European Union. Additionally, consumers may bring forward consumption before tariffs are potentially placed on imports coming into the UK. Consequently, short-term economic growth may be boosted over the course of the next 12-18 months, provided real incomes aren’t squeezed too much by rising inflation and stagnant wage growth.
(from the Guardian live blog, 14:01)
It looks like we've heading to:
(a) divorce settlement, long-term high-level framework and transition agreements agreed by March 2019
(b) transition period of 3 years under ECJ rules, as appropriate, with long-term deal details finessed and agreed by March 2022
(c) permanent deal kicks in March 2022 - along with initial trade deals (Auz and NZ should be bankers and US as a stretch) kicking in
..to me.0 -
Actually you will get that bit, though intermittently.GeoffM said:
It's the passport thing - I know that.Beverley_C said:
GeoffM - Wrong as usual.....GeoffM said:
Because she's proudly buggering off to Southern Ireland to escape Brexit.Sunil_Prasannan said:
I'm curious as to why you chose the Irish tricolour, rather than the EU flag as your avatar!Beverley_C said:AlastairMeeks said:You're dead wrong, you don't understand my feelings at all. The country that I once felt was mine has elected for insularity prompted by panderers to xenophobia. I don't regard it as political fraud, I regard it as national self-mutilation.
AlastairMeeks said:My feelings about this are fairly simple. I'll be ok, but I feel pity for the people who will be shafted by this act of egregious stupidity and contempt for the people who have persuaded themselves that dealing with the complexities of the 21st century is just too much of a chore.
Hopefully to a place with no internet connection but we'd never be that lucky.
Though the no internet connection thing would have been nice.0 -
It is a good approximation and sufficient for most everyday uses, particularly when cookingPhilip_Thompson said:
Not most liquids. Simply water.IanB2 said:
Napoleon's efforts were clearly wasted on you. A litre of (most) liquids weighs a kilogram, and 100 ml weighs 100 grams. What's not to like? Doubtless you still do your cooking recipes in cups?SouthamObserver said:
I am Remain and pounds and ounces. Feet and inches, too!williamglenn said:The pounds and ounces question is the clearest 'neutral' indicator of a huge age divide between Leave and Remain.
http://www.endmemo.com/cconvert/kgl.php0 -
It would be quite ironic if the 'betrayal' argument is centred on how a figure less than £350m a week is actually an increase.MTimT said:
GBP 13 billion in annual payments would be ludicrous. It is more than the current net payments under full membership.SeanT said:A tweetcat amongst the euro-pigeons
https://twitter.com/philipjcowley/status/8470136129506058250 -
God, the hours I spent making that point!chestnut said:It was always flawed to imagine that immigration wasn't "Europe" in the issues index. Likewise the way it funnelled into concerns about housing, public services and wages. These things are inter-connected rather than discrete.
0 -
As de facto leader of PB's LEAVERs, I feel I must apologise for not being able to make it Trucklers tonight. Just started a new contract at work, in the Midlands, so will need to keep them on-side, you see.
Anyway, hope everyone has fun, and remember the Sunil on Sunday's POSITIVE message during the Referendum campaign:
Believe in BRITAIN!
Be LEAVE! 0 -
The A50 letter is largely well done, and the more consensual tones are welcome too. Not perfect, but it's a decent enough start. I have to admit I feel completely exhausted by Brexit, and am increasingly at the point where I just want us to be out and done with it and move on. Considering my background (young "lefty" remainer living in another EU country) I think a large part of the country in general must be feeling the same way.0
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Mr. M, rather an ungallant post towards Mrs C.
Mr. T, also, May has control of the negotiations with the EU, but not control over the 1922 Committee. She'd be knifed before she finished speaking if she suggested we pay the EU £13bn a year after having voted to leave it.0 -
Does the triggering of A50 mean that as of today our MEPs are defunct?0
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I feel the same way!Casino_Royale said:I am unlike other Leavers.
I detest capital and corporal punishment.0 -
Liberal (small 'l') Britain IS Brexit BritainTheScreamingEagles said: 0 -
Actually a litre of almost no liquids save fresh distilled water weigh a kilogramIanB2 said:
Napoleon's efforts were clearly wasted on you. A litre of (most) liquids weighs a kilogram, and 100 ml weighs 100 grams. What's not to like? Doubtless you still do your cooking recipes in cups?SouthamObserver said:
I am Remain and pounds and ounces. Feet and inches, too!williamglenn said:The pounds and ounces question is the clearest 'neutral' indicator of a huge age divide between Leave and Remain.
0 -
was the net fig not more like £200m?williamglenn said:
It would be quite ironic if the 'betrayal' argument is centred on how a figure less than £350m a week is actually an increase.MTimT said:
GBP 13 billion in annual payments would be ludicrous. It is more than the current net payments under full membership.SeanT said:A tweetcat amongst the euro-pigeons
https://twitter.com/philipjcowley/status/8470136129506058250 -
I don't have much sympathy for the AC Grayling type but I do for those living in Ireland. There is good reason for them to be worried. Not sure it would be worth going round England explaining to people that they can't have their Brexit because of the situation in Ireland.GeoffM said:
Because she's proudly buggering off to Southern Ireland to escape Brexit.Sunil_Prasannan said:
I'm curious as to why you chose the Irish tricolour, rather than the EU flag as your avatar!Beverley_C said:AlastairMeeks said:You're dead wrong, you don't understand my feelings at all. The country that I once felt was mine has elected for insularity prompted by panderers to xenophobia. I don't regard it as political fraud, I regard it as national self-mutilation.
AlastairMeeks said:My feelings about this are fairly simple. I'll be ok, but I feel pity for the people who will be shafted by this act of egregious stupidity and contempt for the people who have persuaded themselves that dealing with the complexities of the 21st century is just too much of a chore.
Hopefully to a place with no internet connection but we'd never be that lucky.0 -
No it's not look at the Leavers column in the poll of what we should do once Brexit happens.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Capital and corporal punishment and many other stupid illiberal things given way higher percentages by Leavers than Remainers.0 -
Given the ineptitude and porosity to penetration that the continental security services have shown so far it is more likely to increase our security if we cut ties with them.SouthamObserver said:
No, I don't buy that. It looks like an empty threat designed for domestic consumption. I do not believe the PM would ever do anything deliberately to reduce our security. And it would be a decision for her to make. The EU knows this and that it's just a gesture to her troublesome right in what is otherwise quite a conciliatory, realistic opening move.Richard_Nabavi said:
You are using an emotive word. No-one (on the UK side) is threatening anything; instead we are pointing out the benefits to both sides of a comprehensive agreement covering a wide range of issues. Unfortunately, on the EU27 side, some politicians are issuing threats, and they are also persisting with the completely absurd, and potentially extremely dangerous, line that we can't agree the outline of the final deal until after we leave. That is manifestly bonkers, and security is one of the reasons why it is manifestly bonkers. Theresa May is absolutely right to point this out.SouthamObserver said:
Threatening our own security is silly. The EU knows that.Richard_Nabavi said:
The security stuff was far from silly. It was a reminder to our EU friends that (as they are very fond indeed of reminding us) decisions have consequences, and no deal would be bad for both sides.SouthamObserver said:Put the swivel-eyed right back in its box, ignore braying anti-European editors and always try to see things from the other viewpoint, then we might just get a workable deal. I am probably alone, but for me as a Remainer today has not been a bad start (the silly security stuff aside). Maybe it's the lag.
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The start of Jeremy Corbyns statement in reply to the PMs A50 speech was almost word for word a @SouthamObserver post!0
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Mr. T, there's not a tariff from Iceland to Turkey. Erasmus is something other non-EU countries are in. Science and Erasmus are good, but small potatoes in the grand scheme of things.
For £5bn a year May would need all the peripheral stuff that shouldn't be EU-administered at all (Erasmus, EURatom etc), border controls, and good free market terms of trade (not just tariff-free, but with reduced bureaucracy)).
Not to mention a simple reciprocal agreement on citizens living overseas.
A customs union fudge is an interesting possibility.0 -
Things began going downhill in the UK when we abolished the rack.logical_song said:
No it's not look at the Leavers column in the poll of what we should do once Brexit happens.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Capital and corporal punishment and many other stupid illiberal things given way higher percentages by Leavers than Remainers.0 -
Well they never asked me! I am against Capital and Corporal punishment!logical_song said:
No it's not look at the Leavers column in the poll of what we should do once Brexit happens.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Capital and corporal punishment and many other stupid illiberal things given way higher percentages by Leavers than Remainers.0 -
Some of us are prepared to drink with champagne socialists and neo fascists alikeMortimer said:
Nice to see you, too, Tyson.tyson said:Jesus H...... a fucking pbCom get together spearheaded by The neo fascist Mortimer to celebrate Article 50.......
I'd prefer to complete a shift in the Rikers Island prison cells touching my toes.......
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A cup is 240 mlIanB2 said:
Napoleon's efforts were clearly wasted on you. A litre of (most) liquids weighs a kilogram, and 100 ml weighs 100 grams. What's not to like? Doubtless you still do your cooking recipes in cups?SouthamObserver said:
I am Remain and pounds and ounces. Feet and inches, too!williamglenn said:The pounds and ounces question is the clearest 'neutral' indicator of a huge age divide between Leave and Remain.
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So long as long spoons are involved.Tissue_Price said:
Some of us are prepared to drink with champagne socialists and neo fascists alikeMortimer said:
Nice to see you, too, Tyson.tyson said:Jesus H...... a fucking pbCom get together spearheaded by The neo fascist Mortimer to celebrate Article 50.......
I'd prefer to complete a shift in the Rikers Island prison cells touching my toes.......
Have fun, though folks.
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Mr. F, things started going wrong when Postumus established the Gallic Empire.0
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How he gets from the reality (lefty Tory) to neo-fascist must be worth some doctoral research...Tissue_Price said:
Some of us are prepared to drink with champagne socialists and neo fascists alikeMortimer said:
Nice to see you, too, Tyson.tyson said:Jesus H...... a fucking pbCom get together spearheaded by The neo fascist Mortimer to celebrate Article 50.......
I'd prefer to complete a shift in the Rikers Island prison cells touching my toes.......0 -
Nope, still don't buy it. For security cooperation to end it would have to happen as a result of specific decisions being made by Theresa May. She would have to decide that it should happen. She won't do that.Richard_Nabavi said:
Of course she wouldn't deliberately do anything to damage our security, or indeed that of our EU friends. But as Richard T points out, if we crash out without a deal then much of the institutional and legal framework for security cooperation (including extradition) will collapse on the 29th March 2019. The same is true of lots of other areas - aviation, for example.SouthamObserver said:No, I don't buy that. It looks like an empty threat designed for domestic consumption. I do not believe the PM would ever do anything deliberately to reduce our security. And it would be a decision for her to make. The EU knows this and that it's just a gesture to her troublesome right in what is otherwise quite a conciliatory, realistic opening move.
At present, our EU friends, or some of them, seem to think this doesn't matter, and that we can discuss all that sometime in the distant future. Hopefully they will see sense, although there's a risk they won't.
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Corbyn's speech today was bizarre - it seemed to be asking May to build in a to the leaving agreements a set of Uk only policies which any government could implement or remove should they choose do.
Has he lost his marble ?0
