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The issue with the Iraq war was not whether it was legal or not. But whether it was wise.
It was not a wise thing to do.
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Boris Johnson consistently voted for the Iraq warMonikerDiCanio said:Johnson wasn't an enthusiastic supporter of Blair's Iraq War. Fake news is contaminating even upper journalism.
https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/10999/boris_johnson/uxbridge_and_south_ruislip/divisions?policy=10490 -
BBC Reality checks Blair: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-390070190
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No, because I would expect him to realise the magnitude of the problem and raise his game accordingly, as Cameron didn't, because I think Blair believed in the EU and Cameron didn't believe in anything much.CarlottaVance said:
Like the CAP reform he got in return for a chunk of our rebate?Ishmael_Z said:
I think Blair would have got a more persuasive new deal offer out of the EU than Cameron did.chestnut said:More people voted for Cameron in 2010 than Blair in 2001 and 2005.
If Cameron, who remained reasonably credible and popular, could not persuade the UK public last June, then it's hard to imagine that Blair would do better.0 -
Blair stated on numerous occasions before the HoC that Saddam had WMDs. It's one of the most infamous and lethal lies in history.Yorkcity said:
What lie ? Many intelligence agencies believed Sadam had WMd he had already gassed his own people.Big_G_NorthWales said:
On a lieYorkcity said:
Who are you using to say it was illegal ? Our sovereign parliament voted for military action.Big_G_NorthWales said:
We do not want any more illegal wars thank youwilliamglenn said:Blair is 7 years younger than the US President. Plenty of time left for a second act.
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Shades of Nick Griffin being ignored on the Rotherham rapists.Scott_P said:@glenoglaza1: Interesting that Johnson, Farage, even Caroline Lucas are attacking Blair the man as they have no coherent reply to his argument #Brexit
Still, never mind eh?0 -
At least we thought that was the decision. With hindsight, perhaps the real decision was whether we stood with Europe or not.Yorkcity said:
Agreed but it would have happened without Blair .Bush was going in. The decision was wether we stood with them or not.Cyclefree said:The issue with the Iraq war was not whether it was legal or not. But whether it was wise.
It was not a wise thing to do.0 -
I doubt that Blair would have got much simply because the issue wasn't the failure to negotiate properly but that what - by then - Britain wanted and what the EU wanted were so far apart. Indeed, it's not clear that Cameron had any idea what he wanted other than something to sell to get him past and winning the referendum. And if Blair had offered a referendum I expect that he too would have gone for something he could sell.Ishmael_Z said:
No, because I would expect him to realise the magnitude of the problem and raise his game accordingly, as Cameron didn't, because I think Blair believed in the EU and Cameron didn't believe in anything much.CarlottaVance said:
Like the CAP reform he got in return for a chunk of our rebate?Ishmael_Z said:
I think Blair would have got a more persuasive new deal offer out of the EU than Cameron did.chestnut said:More people voted for Cameron in 2010 than Blair in 2001 and 2005.
If Cameron, who remained reasonably credible and popular, could not persuade the UK public last June, then it's hard to imagine that Blair would do better.
That is absolutely not the way to get a lasting settlement for Britain within the EU. Nor is it the way to get a lasting settlement for Britain's relationship with the EU post-Brexit. This is all tactics. A strategy is needed.
....... "tumbleweed....."..........0 -
Agree with all of that Ms Cyclefree. – The final nail in Blair’s coffin regarding the EU imo, was his manifesto promise for a referendum on constitutional reform (Lisbon) He won an election, then did nothing for two years up until Brown’s ultimate betrayal. Shysters the lot of em.Cyclefree said:
The people you mention may not be great, to put it mildly.Roger said:I don't think Blair's past matters at the moment. We are surrounded by conmen liars and chancers to a level politics has never seen before. Certainly not in my lifetime. Trump Johnson Farage Nuttall Gove IDS etc. Anyone who saw the two mating slugs Netanyahu and Trump will know where we're heading.
Blair certainly isn't short of skeletons but for those of us who care about the way things are going any lifeline will do.
But I think that Blair did great damage to our system of government and to our trust in politicians. Pretty much everything he touched turned, in the end, to ashes. His failure to understand what the EU was about and his failure to carve out a sensible immigration policy ultimately led to Brexit.
People might well have been far more relaxed about FoM from the EU had it not come on top of a pretty much open borders policy to the rest of the world with a lamentable failure on the part of Blair to control it or to deal effectively with asylum claims, whether bogus or not, or to deport those with no right to be here.
And Blair - like many another pro-EU politician before him - never made the case for the EU. He assumed that it was a good and assumed that everyone else would agree with him. If you think something is worthwhile then you need to make the case for it continually not simply assume it.
What was the saying in The Leopard? "Everything must change so that nothing changes."
The pro-EU side have been complacent for years. In the end their complacency cost them.
Incidentally, if the people do change their mind about Brexit and a different decision is taken, fine. And it's also fine for politicians to respond to such a change and even to campaign for it. But what they can't really do is say that they should ignore a decision when there is no evidence of just such a change of mind just because they don't like it. They need to answer the question: "Why are you proposing to do this?" The answer: "I disagree with the answer given" is not, I think, good enough.0 -
Is Glen O' Glaza Tony Blair's spokesman?Scott_P said:@glenoglaza1: Interesting that Johnson, Farage, even Caroline Lucas are attacking Blair the man as they have no coherent reply to his argument #Brexit
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If Blair had held a referendum it would have been on joining the Euro. He would have won and it would have provided a lasting settlement.Cyclefree said:That is absolutely not the way to get a lasting settlement for Britain within the EU. Nor is it the way to get a lasting settlement for Britain's relationship with the EU post-Brexit. This is all tactics. A strategy is needed.
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Moral responsibility is mainly about who actually did what, not about counterfactuals.Yorkcity said:
Agreed but it would have happened without Blair .Bush was going in. The decision was wether we stood with them or not.Cyclefree said:The issue with the Iraq war was not whether it was legal or not. But whether it was wise.
It was not a wise thing to do.0 -
I don't think there has ever been a poll in favour of joining the Euro.williamglenn said:
If Blair had held a referendum it would have been on joining the Euro. He would have won and it would have provided a lasting settlement.Cyclefree said:That is absolutely not the way to get a lasting settlement for Britain within the EU. Nor is it the way to get a lasting settlement for Britain's relationship with the EU post-Brexit. This is all tactics. A strategy is needed.
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You're obviously not alone, Barnesian.Barnesian said:I think of us as STAYERS and QUITTERS. I'm not a querulous quitter. I'm a steady stayer.
I find myself wondering what the point of any union or political marriage is where there is one pretty flaky partner who clearly isn't committed.
We've made it abundantly obvious to the EU that we aren't committed. If I were them, I would want an amicable divorce. I'd probably want to clear out anyone else harbouring the same reservations as well.
I wonder how many of them actually dread the thought of us wanting to change our minds?
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Whatever else he is Blair has always been a fighter. And he's having a go. I agree with him but good luck with that one.
http://tinyurl.com/zvyat7n0 -
We could perfectly well have stood with the Americans without necessarily going to war. Support and friendship does not mean you have to do exactly the same thing as your friend. And Bush offered Blair an out before the war.williamglenn said:
At least we thought that was the decision. With hindsight, perhaps the real decision was whether we stood with Europe or not.Yorkcity said:
Agreed but it would have happened without Blair .Bush was going in. The decision was wether we stood with them or not.Cyclefree said:The issue with the Iraq war was not whether it was legal or not. But whether it was wise.
It was not a wise thing to do.
Plus being a friend sometimes involves saying some hard truths, such as "what's your plan for after?".
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Back in London for the weekend. Spotify put the Jupiter suite by Holst on just now. It makes any ordinary moment (even sitting on a train whilst having had a lot of booze on a flight) a lot more patriotic than one would normally expect.
Edit: also very happy with Vodafone. I did my contract just before I left for good and it came with 4GB of roaming data which I can use in Switzerland plus 20GB of data for the UK. No need to take out a personal contract in Switzerland now I think.0 -
Joke of the year.williamglenn said:
If Blair had held a referendum it would have been on joining the Euro. He would have won and it would have provided a lasting settlement.Cyclefree said:That is absolutely not the way to get a lasting settlement for Britain within the EU. Nor is it the way to get a lasting settlement for Britain's relationship with the EU post-Brexit. This is all tactics. A strategy is needed.
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I don’t think even Tony Blair at his height, could have persuaded the UK to ditch the pound.williamglenn said:
If Blair had held a referendum it would have been on joining the Euro. He would have won and it would have provided a lasting settlement.Cyclefree said:That is absolutely not the way to get a lasting settlement for Britain within the EU. Nor is it the way to get a lasting settlement for Britain's relationship with the EU post-Brexit. This is all tactics. A strategy is needed.
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What the referendum has revealed is that certain people were right all along; There really was nothing between the three major parties 2010-2015.
The country may be divided now, but it always was... the phoney war between Orange bookers, Blairites and Cameroons provided a smokescreen that let them stay in power as long as they acted out their roles without the public noticing0 -
That seems fair and reasonable.Cyclefree said:
Incidentally, if the people do change their mind about Brexit and a different decision is taken, fine. And it's also fine for politicians to respond to such a change and even to campaign for it. But what they can't really do is say that they should ignore a decision when there is no evidence of just such a change of mind just because they don't like it.0 -
oh dearwilliamglenn said:
If Blair had held a referendum it would have been on joining the Euro. He would have won and it would have provided a lasting settlement.Cyclefree said:That is absolutely not the way to get a lasting settlement for Britain within the EU. Nor is it the way to get a lasting settlement for Britain's relationship with the EU post-Brexit. This is all tactics. A strategy is needed.
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Even Dominic Cummings thought the sceptics would have lost if the decision were framed by Blair as being a proxy for in or out of the EU.SimonStClare said:
I don’t think even Tony Blair at his height, could have persuaded the UK to ditch the pound.williamglenn said:
If Blair had held a referendum it would have been on joining the Euro. He would have won and it would have provided a lasting settlement.Cyclefree said:That is absolutely not the way to get a lasting settlement for Britain within the EU. Nor is it the way to get a lasting settlement for Britain's relationship with the EU post-Brexit. This is all tactics. A strategy is needed.
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Even most Labour PMs side with US Presidents, Attlee and Truman, Callaghan and Carter, Blair and Clinton and Bush, Brown and Obama. Wilson was an exception in failing to side with LBJ over Vietnam in the mid sixties but then so was Heath in not really being close to Nixon in the early seventies which was coincidentally the time leading up to which we were finally accepted in the EECOldKingCole said:
Should have listened to his Uncle Harold!Yorkcity said:
Agreed . I still think he would have beat Cameron in 2020.,,After 9 ,11 I think he felt that as a Labour PM he had to stand with the USA .AndyJS said:Blair is such an impressive speaker. He'd probably still be PM if he hadn't stood down in 2007.
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williamglenn said:
If Blair had held a referendum it would have been on joining the Euro. He would have won and it would have provided a lasting settlement.Cyclefree said:That is absolutely not the way to get a lasting settlement for Britain within the EU. Nor is it the way to get a lasting settlement for Britain's relationship with the EU post-Brexit. This is all tactics. A strategy is needed.
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I don't think Britain is flaky. It simply is not and never really has been committed to the full EU projet. And the EU has never really been willing to accommodate Britain's concerns.chestnut said:
You're obviously not alone, Barnesian.Barnesian said:I think of us as STAYERS and QUITTERS. I'm not a querulous quitter. I'm a steady stayer.
I find myself wondering what the point of any union or political marriage is where there is one pretty flaky partner who clearly isn't committed.
We've made it abundantly obvious to the EU that we aren't committed. If I were them, I would want an amicable divorce. I'd probably want to clear out anyone else harbouring the same reservations as well.
I wonder how many of them actually dread the thought of us wanting to change our minds?
With hindsight perhaps an associate membership might have been the answer. Ah well, too late now.
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LOLScott_P said:@glenoglaza1: Interesting that Johnson, Farage, even Caroline Lucas are attacking Blair the man as they have no coherent reply to his argument #Brexit
Just for you Scott
https://order-order.com/2017/02/17/68-want-government-get-brexit/
68% of voters want the government to “get on with implementing the result of the referendum”, compared to just 15% who disagree0 -
And smart guys like Cummings would have reframed it as "In the EU, still in control". Or something along those lines.williamglenn said:
Even Dominic Cummings thought the sceptics would have lost if the decision were framed by Blair as being a proxy for in or out of the EU.SimonStClare said:
I don’t think even Tony Blair at his height, could have persuaded the UK to ditch the pound.williamglenn said:
If Blair had held a referendum it would have been on joining the Euro. He would have won and it would have provided a lasting settlement.Cyclefree said:That is absolutely not the way to get a lasting settlement for Britain within the EU. Nor is it the way to get a lasting settlement for Britain's relationship with the EU post-Brexit. This is all tactics. A strategy is needed.
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You're obviously a foreigner. English speaker of Scotch/ Argentine descent in French Canada ?williamglenn said:
Even Dominic Cummings thought the sceptics would have lost if the decision were framed by Blair as being a proxy for in or out of the EU.SimonStClare said:
I don’t think even Tony Blair at his height, could have persuaded the UK to ditch the pound.williamglenn said:
If Blair had held a referendum it would have been on joining the Euro. He would have won and it would have provided a lasting settlement.Cyclefree said:That is absolutely not the way to get a lasting settlement for Britain within the EU. Nor is it the way to get a lasting settlement for Britain's relationship with the EU post-Brexit. This is all tactics. A strategy is needed.
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Australia also went in with the US in Vietnam just as they joined them in Iraq, it is really Australia that is the closest ally to the US, not the UKFloater said:0 -
Not totally other countries such as Spain decided to agree with Bush the EU did not speak with one voice.Many countries were involved suppprting the Usawilliamglenn said:
At least we thought that was the decision. With hindsight, perhaps the real decision was whether we stood with Europe or not.Yorkcity said:
Agreed but it would have happened without Blair .Bush was going in. The decision was wether we stood with them or not.Cyclefree said:The issue with the Iraq war was not whether it was legal or not. But whether it was wise.
It was not a wise thing to do.0 -
I expect that New Zealand and Australia might still have a folk memory of Japan's expansion in WWII ?Yorkcity said:
Not totally other countries such as Spain decided to agree with Bush the EU did not speak with one voice.Many countries were involved suppprting the Usawilliamglenn said:
At least we thought that was the decision. With hindsight, perhaps the real decision was whether we stood with Europe or not.Yorkcity said:
Agreed but it would have happened without Blair .Bush was going in. The decision was wether we stood with them or not.Cyclefree said:The issue with the Iraq war was not whether it was legal or not. But whether it was wise.
It was not a wise thing to do.0 -
Worse. A Cantabrigian.MonikerDiCanio said:
You're obviously a foreigner. English speaker of Scotch/ Argentine descent in French Canada ?williamglenn said:
Even Dominic Cummings thought the sceptics would have lost if the decision were framed by Blair as being a proxy for in or out of the EU.SimonStClare said:
I don’t think even Tony Blair at his height, could have persuaded the UK to ditch the pound.williamglenn said:
If Blair had held a referendum it would have been on joining the Euro. He would have won and it would have provided a lasting settlement.Cyclefree said:That is absolutely not the way to get a lasting settlement for Britain within the EU. Nor is it the way to get a lasting settlement for Britain's relationship with the EU post-Brexit. This is all tactics. A strategy is needed.
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New Zealand kept out of Iraq unlike AustraliaToms said:
I expect that New Zealand and Australia might still have a folk memory of Japan's expansion in WWII ?Yorkcity said:
Not totally other countries such as Spain decided to agree with Bush the EU did not speak with one voice.Many countries were involved suppprting the Usawilliamglenn said:
At least we thought that was the decision. With hindsight, perhaps the real decision was whether we stood with Europe or not.Yorkcity said:
Agreed but it would have happened without Blair .Bush was going in. The decision was wether we stood with them or not.Cyclefree said:The issue with the Iraq war was not whether it was legal or not. But whether it was wise.
It was not a wise thing to do.0 -
I think the flakiness would come from us changing our minds having already voted to Leave.Cyclefree said:
I don't think Britain is flaky. It simply is not and never really has been committed to the full EU projet. And the EU has never really been willing to accommodate Britain's concerns.chestnut said:
You're obviously not alone, Barnesian.Barnesian said:I think of us as STAYERS and QUITTERS. I'm not a querulous quitter. I'm a steady stayer.
I find myself wondering what the point of any union or political marriage is where there is one pretty flaky partner who clearly isn't committed.
We've made it abundantly obvious to the EU that we aren't committed. If I were them, I would want an amicable divorce. I'd probably want to clear out anyone else harbouring the same reservations as well.
I wonder how many of them actually dread the thought of us wanting to change our minds?
With hindsight perhaps an associate membership might have been the answer. Ah well, too late now.
Who's then to say, to paraphrase Blair, that Remaining would be inevitable after we changed our mind? Why couldn't we change our minds again? A daft situation, but perfectly reasonable using his logic.
My instinct is that the vast majority of voters on both sides knew they were making a long term and far reaching decision, not one that would have a lifespan of a year or two, and many were thinking about five, ten, fifteen, twenty years ahead.0 -
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2016/03/11/tony-blair-admits-he-may-damage-the-pro-eu-referendum-campaign_n_9435902.html
As per link text. I don't know what he thinks has changed; and for all the complaints that people are talking about him because they can't successfully attack his argument, I cannot for the life of me see what argument he has advanced today.0 -
Probably because the man who called it said thischestnut said:
I think the flakiness would come from us changing our minds having already voted to Leave.Cyclefree said:
I don't think Britain is flaky. It simply is not and never really has been committed to the full EU projet. And the EU has never really been willing to accommodate Britain's concerns.chestnut said:
You're obviously not alone, Barnesian.Barnesian said:I think of us as STAYERS and QUITTERS. I'm not a querulous quitter. I'm a steady stayer.
I find myself wondering what the point of any union or political marriage is where there is one pretty flaky partner who clearly isn't committed.
We've made it abundantly obvious to the EU that we aren't committed. If I were them, I would want an amicable divorce. I'd probably want to clear out anyone else harbouring the same reservations as well.
I wonder how many of them actually dread the thought of us wanting to change our minds?
With hindsight perhaps an associate membership might have been the answer. Ah well, too late now.
Who's then to say, to paraphrase Blair, that Remaining would be inevitable after we changed our mind? Why couldn't we change our minds again? A daft situation, but perfectly reasonable using his logic.
My instinct is that the vast majority of voters on both sides knew they were making a long term and far reaching decision, not one that would have a lifetime of a year or two, and many were thinking about five, ten, fifteen, twenty years ahead.
"I am absolutely clear a referendum is a referendum, it's a once in a generation, once in a lifetime opportunity and the result determines the outcome ... You can't have neverendums, you have referendums."
Mind you, that's when he thought he was winning0 -
I suppose, to oversimplify, the middle east troubles centre around oil.HYUFD said:
New Zealand kept out of Iraq unlike AustraliaToms said:
I expect that New Zealand and Australia might still have a folk memory of Japan's expansion in WWII ?Yorkcity said:
Not totally other countries such as Spain decided to agree with Bush the EU did not speak with one voice.Many countries were involved suppprting the Usawilliamglenn said:
At least we thought that was the decision. With hindsight, perhaps the real decision was whether we stood with Europe or not.Yorkcity said:
Agreed but it would have happened without Blair .Bush was going in. The decision was wether we stood with them or not.Cyclefree said:The issue with the Iraq war was not whether it was legal or not. But whether it was wise.
It was not a wise thing to do.
There's lots of that elsewhere these days.
I wonder what does NZ does for energy.
Time to go off & do a little research.0 -
Indeed. I officially declare that statement to be Peak Remainer.Floater said:
oh dearwilliamglenn said:
If Blair had held a referendum it would have been on joining the Euro. He would have won and it would have provided a lasting settlement.Cyclefree said:That is absolutely not the way to get a lasting settlement for Britain within the EU. Nor is it the way to get a lasting settlement for Britain's relationship with the EU post-Brexit. This is all tactics. A strategy is needed.
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If that's correct, then we dodged a wide bullet.williamglenn said:
If Blair had held a referendum it would have been on joining the Euro. He would have won and it would have provided a lasting settlement.Cyclefree said:That is absolutely not the way to get a lasting settlement for Britain within the EU. Nor is it the way to get a lasting settlement for Britain's relationship with the EU post-Brexit. This is all tactics. A strategy is needed.
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You know those 3 - across seats on commuter trains, where if you end up in the middle seat it makes for an uncomfortable journey?
Well that's where I am, with Blair on one side and Corbyn on the other.0 -
On topic, am I missing something with the first result in Bollington? Presumably the Bollington First party last time was on 37% and the Conservatives were on 31% to judge from the published swings. How, then, was it a Conservative seat?0
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Tory votes count more, obviouslyFishing said:On topic, am I missing something with the first result in Bollington? Presumably the Bollington First party last time was on 37% and the Conservatives were on 31% to judge from the published swings. How, then, was it a Conservative seat?
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There is some oil in NZ in the Taranaki basin, coal in Southland, as well as hydropower and geothermal powerToms said:
I suppose, to oversimplify, the middle east troubles centre around oil.HYUFD said:
New Zealand kept out of Iraq unlike AustraliaToms said:
I expect that New Zealand and Australia might still have a folk memory of Japan's expansion in WWII ?Yorkcity said:
Not totally other countries such as Spain decided to agree with Bush the EU did not speak with one voice.Many countries were involved suppprting the Usawilliamglenn said:
At least we thought that was the decision. With hindsight, perhaps the real decision was whether we stood with Europe or not.Yorkcity said:
Agreed but it would have happened without Blair .Bush was going in. The decision was wether we stood with them or not.Cyclefree said:The issue with the Iraq war was not whether it was legal or not. But whether it was wise.
It was not a wise thing to do.
There's lots of that elsewhere these days.
I wonder what does NZ does for energy.
Time to go off & do a little research.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_New_Zealand0 -
1 Conservative, 1 Bollington First, were elected.Fishing said:On topic, am I missing something with the first result in Bollington? Presumably the Bollington First party last time was on 37% and the Conservatives were on 31% to judge from the published swings. How, then, was it a Conservative seat?
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I think he was right on that.isam said:
Probably because the man who called it said thischestnut said:
I think the flakiness would come from us changing our minds having already voted to Leave.Cyclefree said:
I don't think Britain is flaky. It simply is not and never really has been committed to the full EU projet. And the EU has never really been willing to accommodate Britain's concerns.chestnut said:
You're obviously not alone, Barnesian.Barnesian said:I think of us as STAYERS and QUITTERS. I'm not a querulous quitter. I'm a steady stayer.
I find myself wondering what the point of any union or political marriage is where there is one pretty flaky partner who clearly isn't committed.
We've made it abundantly obvious to the EU that we aren't committed. If I were them, I would want an amicable divorce. I'd probably want to clear out anyone else harbouring the same reservations as well.
I wonder how many of them actually dread the thought of us wanting to change our minds?
With hindsight perhaps an associate membership might have been the answer. Ah well, too late now.
Who's then to say, to paraphrase Blair, that Remaining would be inevitable after we changed our mind? Why couldn't we change our minds again? A daft situation, but perfectly reasonable using his logic.
My instinct is that the vast majority of voters on both sides knew they were making a long term and far reaching decision, not one that would have a lifetime of a year or two, and many were thinking about five, ten, fifteen, twenty years ahead.
"I am absolutely clear a referendum is a referendum, it's a once in a generation, once in a lifetime opportunity and the result determines the outcome ... You can't have neverendums, you have referendums."
Mind you, that's when he thought he was winning
Perhaps there is an argument for a Fixed Term Referendum Act? One that gives the decisions a fixed lifespan. Twenty five years maybe?0 -
LibDem gain, nailed on.0
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Likechestnut said:
I think he was right on that.isam said:
Probably because the man who called it said thischestnut said:
I think the flakiness would come from us changing our minds having already voted to Leave.Cyclefree said:
I don't think Britain is flaky. It simply is not and never really has been committed to the full EU projet. And the EU has never really been willing to accommodate Britain's concerns.chestnut said:
You're obviously not alone, Barnesian.Barnesian said:I think of us as STAYERS and QUITTERS. I'm not a querulous quitter. I'm a steady stayer.
I find myself wondering what the point of any union or political marriage is where there is one pretty flaky partner who clearly isn't committed.
We've made it abundantly obvious to the EU that we aren't committed. If I were them, I would want an amicable divorce. I'd probably want to clear out anyone else harbouring the same reservations as well.
I wonder how many of them actually dread the thought of us wanting to change our minds?
With hindsight perhaps an associate membership might have been the answer. Ah well, too late now.
Who's then to say, to paraphrase Blair, that Remaining would be inevitable after we changed our mind? Why couldn't we change our minds again? A daft situation, but perfectly reasonable using his logic.
My instinct is that the vast majority of voters on both sides knew they were making a long term and far reaching decision, not one that would have a lifetime of a year or two, and many were thinking about five, ten, fifteen, twenty years ahead.
"I am absolutely clear a referendum is a referendum, it's a once in a generation, once in a lifetime opportunity and the result determines the outcome ... You can't have neverendums, you have referendums."
Mind you, that's when he thought he was winning
Perhaps there is an argument for a Fixed Term Referendum Act? One that gives the decisions a fixed lifespan. Twenty five years maybe?0 -
Le Pen takes a 7% lead and Macron and Fillon tied to face her in the runoff in new Ifop poll
https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/8326938018693079040 -
HYUFD said:
Le Pen takes a 7% lead and Macron and Fillon tied to face her in the runoff in new Ifop poll
https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/832693801869307904
Thedark ispeople are rising.0 -
But surely a simple majority in parliament could repeal it?chestnut said:
I think he was right on that.isam said:
Probably because the man who called it said thischestnut said:
I think the flakiness would come from us changing our minds having already voted to Leave.Cyclefree said:
I don't think Britain is flaky. It simply is not and never really has been committed to the full EU projet. And the EU has never really been willing to accommodate Britain's concerns.chestnut said:
You're obviously not alone, Barnesian.Barnesian said:I think of us as STAYERS and QUITTERS. I'm not a querulous quitter. I'm a steady stayer.
I find myself wondering what the point of any union or political marriage is where there is one pretty flaky partner who clearly isn't committed.
We've made it abundantly obvious to the EU that we aren't committed. If I were them, I would want an amicable divorce. I'd probably want to clear out anyone else harbouring the same reservations as well.
I wonder how many of them actually dread the thought of us wanting to change our minds?
With hindsight perhaps an associate membership might have been the answer. Ah well, too late now.
Who's then to say, to paraphrase Blair, that Remaining would be inevitable after we changed our mind? Why couldn't we change our minds again? A daft situation, but perfectly reasonable using his logic.
My instinct is that the vast majority of voters on both sides knew they were making a long term and far reaching decision, not one that would have a lifetime of a year or two, and many were thinking about five, ten, fifteen, twenty years ahead.
"I am absolutely clear a referendum is a referendum, it's a once in a generation, once in a lifetime opportunity and the result determines the outcome ... You can't have neverendums, you have referendums."
Mind you, that's when he thought he was winning
Perhaps there is an argument for a Fixed Term Referendum Act? One that gives the decisions a fixed lifespan. Twenty five years maybe?
Let us imagine that the Scots - for whatever reason - were suddenly 99.9% in favour of independence, and the SNP was often winning 100% of the votes in elections in Scotland. Are you seriously saying that, because five years ago a referendum was lost, that the people of Scotland could be denied a vote?
If a clear majority of people NOW want something, as expressed through how they elect their representatives, then they should not and cannot be bound by how a different bunch of people voted a decade ago.0 -
There was an IFOP poll out today with Fillon and Macron also tied for second.HYUFD said:Le Pen takes a 7% lead and Macron and Fillon tied to face her in the runoff in new Ifop poll
https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/8326938018693079040 -
It is certainly getting interestingMarkHopkins said:HYUFD said:Le Pen takes a 7% lead and Macron and Fillon tied to face her in the runoff in new Ifop poll
https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/832693801869307904
Thedark ispeople are rising.0 -
An exceptionally clever post...I don't agree with it, but I get your insight.....isam said:What the referendum has revealed is that certain people were right all along; There really was nothing between the three major parties 2010-2015.
The country may be divided now, but it always was... the phoney war between Orange bookers, Blairites and Cameroons provided a smokescreen that let them stay in power as long as they acted out their roles without the public noticing
0 -
It looks to be very close as to which of them makes the runoffrcs1000 said:
There was an IFOP poll out today with Fillon and Macron also tied for second.HYUFD said:Le Pen takes a 7% lead and Macron and Fillon tied to face her in the runoff in new Ifop poll
https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/8326938018693079040 -
The whinging tonight has all been by bedwetting Leavers complaining that a former Prime Minister has views. They daren't engage with his arguments so they froth about his past.SeanT said:
There is no decision to be made. We decided. We're out. It's done.AlastairMeeks said:I see that pb's Leavers are having a night off from arguing that the decision whether to leave the EU shouldn't be influenced by the people making the argument.
Go away and think of something new to whinge about.
Much like, in a small way, the response to my article this morning by the more feeble-minded and incontinent posters.0 -
With an unstable egomaniac of questionable sanity in the White House, I'm not sure this is a sensible stance on the part of our European allies...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/17/european-leaders-resist-trumps-ultimatum-increase-defence-spending/0 -
Do you trust polls anymore?HYUFD said:
It looks to be very close as to which of them makes the runoffrcs1000 said:
There was an IFOP poll out today with Fillon and Macron also tied for second.HYUFD said:Le Pen takes a 7% lead and Macron and Fillon tied to face her in the runoff in new Ifop poll
https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/832693801869307904
0 -
Since when did questioning the government become inappropriate? At what point, and by whom, was it decreed that dissent is unconscionable? Brexit means Brexit, so pipe down at the back there. Don’t you realise you lost? So shut-up, you, you, you Remoaner you.SeanT said:There is no decision to be made. We decided. We're out. It's done.
Go away and think of something new to whinge about.
When Blair observes that ‘the ideologues are the ones driving this bus’ he is, again, correct.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/02/tony-blair-right-brexit/0 -
AlastairMeeks said:
The whinging tonight has all been by bedwetting Leavers complaining that a former Prime Minister has views. They daren't engage with his arguments so they froth about his past.SeanT said:
There is no decision to be made. We decided. We're out. It's done.AlastairMeeks said:I see that pb's Leavers are having a night off from arguing that the decision whether to leave the EU shouldn't be influenced by the people making the argument.
Go away and think of something new to whinge about.
Much like, in a small way, the response to my article this morning by the more feeble-minded and incontinent posters.
What arguments? These ones? Blair:-
1. The people were asked a question.
2. Both sides had a crack at explaining their position.
3. Leave won.
4. It's not fair.
5. You bad people need to Stop Being Stupid and change your minds.
0 -
Scott_P said:
Since when did questioning the government become inappropriate? At what point, and by whom, was it decreed that dissent is unconscionable? Brexit means Brexit, so pipe down at the back there. Don’t you realise you lost? So shut-up, you, you, you Remoaner you.SeanT said:There is no decision to be made. We decided. We're out. It's done.
Go away and think of something new to whinge about.
When Blair observes that ‘the ideologues are the ones driving this bus’ he is, again, correct.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/02/tony-blair-right-brexit/
What do you mean "again"? When was the 1st time?
0 -
https://twitter.com/MichaelPDeacon/status/747000584226607104/MarkHopkins said:2. Both sides had a crack at explaining their position.
3. Leave won.0 -
Wasn't it Obama who said "We won, you lost: get over it"?MarkHopkins said:Scott_P said:
Since when did questioning the government become inappropriate? At what point, and by whom, was it decreed that dissent is unconscionable? Brexit means Brexit, so pipe down at the back there. Don’t you realise you lost? So shut-up, you, you, you Remoaner you.SeanT said:There is no decision to be made. We decided. We're out. It's done.
Go away and think of something new to whinge about.
When Blair observes that ‘the ideologues are the ones driving this bus’ he is, again, correct.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/02/tony-blair-right-brexit/
What do you mean "again"? When was the 1st time?0 -
OMG The last throw of the dice for the remainers is the Lords next week. If democracy holds and there's no amendments then article 50 gets triggered. End of!0
-
Alistair...I don't know why you even bother getting into a dialogue with the likes of the very clearly inadequate seant. You wrote a very good article this morning, all he can write is shit, crass, inane or stupid shit.AlastairMeeks said:
The whinging tonight has all been by bedwetting Leavers complaining that a former Prime Minister has views. They daren't engage with his arguments so they froth about his past.SeanT said:
There is no decision to be made. We decided. We're out. It's done.AlastairMeeks said:I see that pb's Leavers are having a night off from arguing that the decision whether to leave the EU shouldn't be influenced by the people making the argument.
Go away and think of something new to whinge about.
Much like, in a small way, the response to my article this morning by the more feeble-minded and incontinent posters.
In the long run we will win...it might take some time...but bigotry, small mindedness, blind ideology and nastiness just aren't compatible with human evolution...
0 -
' Today, we are setting out our assessment of what would happen in the weeks and months after a vote to Leave on June 23.Scott_P said:
https://twitter.com/MichaelPDeacon/status/747000584226607104/MarkHopkins said:2. Both sides had a crack at explaining their position.
3. Leave won.
It is clear that there would be an immediate and profound shock to our economy.
The analysis produced by the Treasury today shows that a vote to leave will push our economy into a recession that would knock 3.6 per cent off GDP and, over two years, put hundreds of thousands of people out of work right across the country, compared to the forecast for continued growth if we vote to remain in the EU.
In a more severe shock scenario, Treasury economists estimate that our economy could be hit by 6 per cent, there would be a deeper recession and unemployment would rise by even more.
Under all scenarios the economy shrinks, the value of the pound falls, inflation rises, unemployment rises, wages are hit, and as a result - government borrowing goes up. '
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/22/david-cameron-and-george-osborne-brexit-would-put-our-economy-in/
0 -
Barack Obama in 2010 to the Republican congressional leadership -specifically Eric Cantor the House Republican Whip over enacting Obamacare AKA the Affordable Care Act.weejonnie said:
Wasn't it Obama who said "We won, you lost: get over it"?MarkHopkins said:Scott_P said:
Since when did questioning the government become inappropriate? At what point, and by whom, was it decreed that dissent is unconscionable? Brexit means Brexit, so pipe down at the back there. Don’t you realise you lost? So shut-up, you, you, you Remoaner you.SeanT said:There is no decision to be made. We decided. We're out. It's done.
Go away and think of something new to whinge about.
When Blair observes that ‘the ideologues are the ones driving this bus’ he is, again, correct.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/02/tony-blair-right-brexit/
What do you mean "again"? When was the 1st time?
Obama: - "elections have consequences" and "I won."0 -
Tyson you have already lost. You are just too dumb to realise it.tyson said:
Alistair...I don't know why you even bother getting into a dialogue with the likes of the very clearly inadequate seant. You wrote a very good article this morning, all he can write is shit, crass, inane or stupid shit.AlastairMeeks said:
The whinging tonight has all been by bedwetting Leavers complaining that a former Prime Minister has views. They daren't engage with his arguments so they froth about his past.SeanT said:
There is no decision to be made. We decided. We're out. It's done.AlastairMeeks said:I see that pb's Leavers are having a night off from arguing that the decision whether to leave the EU shouldn't be influenced by the people making the argument.
Go away and think of something new to whinge about.
Much like, in a small way, the response to my article this morning by the more feeble-minded and incontinent posters.
In the long run we will win...it might take some time...but bigotry, small mindedness, blind ideology and nastiness just aren't compatible with human evolution...0 -
Scott_P said:
twitter.com/MichaelPDeacon/status/747000584226607104/MarkHopkins said:2. Both sides had a crack at explaining their position.
3. Leave won.
Remain:
Back of the Queue
Punishment Budget
World War 3
(etc)
0 -
@iainmartin1: Tony Blair warns article 50 could be launched within 45 minutes. (thank you for that various people on twitter)Blue_rog said:OMG The last throw of the dice for the remainers is the Lords next week. If democracy holds and there's no amendments then article 50 gets triggered. End of!
0 -
Certainly not entirely in terms of populist anti immigration campaigns, if so and Le Pen really does take a 7% lead into round 2 a Le Pen presidency is by no means impossible even if still unlikelytyson said:
Do you trust polls anymore?HYUFD said:
It looks to be very close as to which of them makes the runoffrcs1000 said:
There was an IFOP poll out today with Fillon and Macron also tied for second.HYUFD said:Le Pen takes a 7% lead and Macron and Fillon tied to face her in the runoff in new Ifop poll
https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/8326938018693079040 -
"bedwetting" seems a bit below your normal high standards.AlastairMeeks said:
The whinging tonight has all been by bedwetting Leavers complaining that a former Prime Minister has views. They daren't engage with his arguments so they froth about his past.SeanT said:
There is no decision to be made. We decided. We're out. It's done.AlastairMeeks said:I see that pb's Leavers are having a night off from arguing that the decision whether to leave the EU shouldn't be influenced by the people making the argument.
Go away and think of something new to whinge about.
Much like, in a small way, the response to my article this morning by the more feeble-minded and incontinent posters.
What argument has Blair advanced today?0 -
Don't worry, I've been assured that the immediate and profound shock will occur the moment May triggers Article 50.another_richard said:
' Today, we are setting out our assessment of what would happen in the weeks and months after a vote to Leave on June 23.Scott_P said:
https://twitter.com/MichaelPDeacon/status/747000584226607104/MarkHopkins said:2. Both sides had a crack at explaining their position.
3. Leave won.
It is clear that there would be an immediate and profound shock to our economy.
The analysis produced by the Treasury today shows that a vote to leave will push our economy into a recession that would knock 3.6 per cent off GDP and, over two years, put hundreds of thousands of people out of work right across the country, compared to the forecast for continued growth if we vote to remain in the EU.
In a more severe shock scenario, Treasury economists estimate that our economy could be hit by 6 per cent, there would be a deeper recession and unemployment would rise by even more.
Under all scenarios the economy shrinks, the value of the pound falls, inflation rises, unemployment rises, wages are hit, and as a result - government borrowing goes up. '
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/22/david-cameron-and-george-osborne-brexit-would-put-our-economy-in/0 -
The most the EU would grant is a temporary brake on free movement, they would not end itSeanT said:Here's a thing re Blair and Brexit. He might be right in one way.
I've been watching interviews with Macron and Merkel and Schulz etc, and a lot of them are still saying IF Brexit happens. Not "when". They still say IF.
Much of this is just European incredulity that we would do anything so drastic (or stupid, as they see it).
But I also wonder if in say, early 2019, as Real Hard Brexit looms, along with the loss of the UK and its contributions, financial and otherwise, the EU might come up with a deal to make us rethink a the last moment. That's certainly the impression I get from someone like Macron.
It would have to be quite a striking offer. A temporary end to Free Movement plus something else.
But for the first time today I saw a way Brexit might still be thwarted. The EU does fudgy deals, after all. It's one of the few things it is good at.
Hmm.0 -
Gosh 'you'll win in the end'. And how do you define that? As soon as article 50 is triggered 'winning' means reapplying for membership with Schengen, free movement, and the Eurotyson said:
Alistair...I don't know why you even bother getting into a dialogue with the likes of the very clearly inadequate seant. You wrote a very good article this morning, all he can write is shit, crass, inane or stupid shit.AlastairMeeks said:
The whinging tonight has all been by bedwetting Leavers complaining that a former Prime Minister has views. They daren't engage with his arguments so they froth about his past.SeanT said:
There is no decision to be made. We decided. We're out. It's done.AlastairMeeks said:I see that pb's Leavers are having a night off from arguing that the decision whether to leave the EU shouldn't be influenced by the people making the argument.
Go away and think of something new to whinge about.
Much like, in a small way, the response to my article this morning by the more feeble-minded and incontinent posters.
In the long run we will win...it might take some time...but bigotry, small mindedness, blind ideology and nastiness just aren't compatible with human evolution...0 -
Both Massie and Blair share a trait - they have never knowingly been right about anything.MarkHopkins said:Scott_P said:
Since when did questioning the government become inappropriate? At what point, and by whom, was it decreed that dissent is unconscionable? Brexit means Brexit, so pipe down at the back there. Don’t you realise you lost? So shut-up, you, you, you Remoaner you.SeanT said:There is no decision to be made. We decided. We're out. It's done.
Go away and think of something new to whinge about.
When Blair observes that ‘the ideologues are the ones driving this bus’ he is, again, correct.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/02/tony-blair-right-brexit/
What do you mean "again"? When was the 1st time?0 -
Where do you get such an idea from?tyson said:
bigotry, small mindedness, blind ideology and nastiness just aren't compatible with human evolution...AlastairMeeks said:
The whinging tonight has all been by bedwetting Leavers complaining that a former Prime Minister has views. They daren't engage with his arguments so they froth about his past.SeanT said:
There is no decision to be made. We decided. We're out. It's done.AlastairMeeks said:I see that pb's Leavers are having a night off from arguing that the decision whether to leave the EU shouldn't be influenced by the people making the argument.
Go away and think of something new to whinge about.
Much like, in a small way, the response to my article this morning by the more feeble-minded and incontinent posters.0 -
Would you like to put some names to the description 'more feeble minded and incontinent posters' ?AlastairMeeks said:
The whinging tonight has all been by bedwetting Leavers complaining that a former Prime Minister has views. They daren't engage with his arguments so they froth about his past.SeanT said:
There is no decision to be made. We decided. We're out. It's done.AlastairMeeks said:I see that pb's Leavers are having a night off from arguing that the decision whether to leave the EU shouldn't be influenced by the people making the argument.
Go away and think of something new to whinge about.
Much like, in a small way, the response to my article this morning by the more feeble-minded and incontinent posters.
0 -
When we vote for the Commons, we know that it's for five years and we have to live with it.
Why not do something similar with referendums? It's the same basic principle as the FTPA.
The subjects have longer term consequences so we accept that we live with it for a longer period. It should transcend party politics.
We have now had three referendums in the last five years. On each occasion the voters have been told it's a generational vote. Then, lo and behold, the losing side spends it's time saying it isn't. That's destabilising and disruptive.
The reality of Scotland, rather than your scenario, is perpetual calls for another referendum with little real sign that there is any great zest for it.
We have a situation now where some want referendums banned because they don't like the outcomes and then a situation where people want them constantly re-run, usually because they lost.
The answer has to be somewhere in the middle with due consideration given to the significance of the topic.
People must be allowed a say, but it's hugely disruptive to go back to the same subjects too frequently, especially where the subject is a very deep one like membership of the UK or the EU.
It's just a thought.
I don't see any great feeling within the UK or Scotland for quick re-runs of referendums.0 -
Its a possibility but the longer the wait the more the EU would have to give.SeanT said:Here's a thing re Blair and Brexit. He might be right in one way.
I've been watching interviews with Macron and Merkel and Schulz etc, and a lot of them are still saying IF Brexit happens. Not "when". They still say IF.
Much of this is just European incredulity that we would do anything so drastic (or stupid, as they see it).
But I also wonder if in say, early 2019, as Real Hard Brexit looms, along with the loss of the UK and its contributions, financial and otherwise, the EU might come up with a deal to make us rethink a the last moment. That's certainly the impression I get from someone like Macron.
It would have to be quite a striking offer. A temporary end to Free Movement plus something else.
But for the first time today I saw a way Brexit might still be thwarted. The EU does fudgy deals, after all. It's one of the few things it is good at.
Hmm.
I wonder if the EU had believed the line Cameron and Osborne had spouted about the UK immediately falling apart upon a Leave vote and that they would then have been able to negotiate from a stronger position.
0 -
Macron is now going backwards and the Fillon support he has left is holding firm. Fillon said this morning that he was reneging on a promise to quit if he was indicted and will stay in the race no matter what, so looks like he is going to stay the course.rcs1000 said:
There was an IFOP poll out today with Fillon and Macron also tied for second.HYUFD said:Le Pen takes a 7% lead and Macron and Fillon tied to face her in the runoff in new Ifop poll
https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/832693801869307904
Expect Fillon to play the victim card from now on. Really can't see why Macron is such a hot favourite still, with his support evaporating despite Fillon's problems. Also less than 50% of those polled who say they will vote for Macron say they might change their mind.
I would have Macron, Fillon and Le Pen all priced around the same.0 -
There is no chance of May calling an election until the end of 2019 once May invokes Article 50 next month, the negotiations will be too time consumingScott_P said:
Except that's not true.chestnut said:
When we vote for the Commons, we know that it's for five years and we have to live with it.
Were it not for the terminally incompetent Corbyn, there would be every chance of an election in the next 2 years0 -
Surely without Corbyn there is even less of a chance?Scott_P said:
Except that's not true.chestnut said:
When we vote for the Commons, we know that it's for five years and we have to live with it.
Were it not for the terminally incompetent Corbyn, there would be every chance of an election in the next 2 years0 -
I (in)frequent these parts mainly to make up for a protected and focussed childhood & to learn about the real world.
I find articles by Mr.Meeks and others help do the trick.
Keep 'em coming please.0 -
Interesting that George Osborne is now on the Black Rock payroll.
This is what Black Rock predicted about the UK economy on 14th July:
' Britain will be plunged into a recession this year and be plagued with lower economic growth for another five years because of the shock decision for the UK to leave the EU, BlackRock analysts have said.
BlackRock is the largest asset manager in the world with $4.6 trillion under management as of 2015. Richard Turnill, chief investment strategist, has said that firm's "base case" is recession, meaning at a minimum, it expects the UK GDP to fall for two successive quarters in a row. '
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-will-plunge-the-uk-into-a-recession-in-the-next-year-blackrock-says-a7134616.html
0 -
Not next week.Blue_rog said:OMG The last throw of the dice for the remainers is the Lords next week. If democracy holds and there's no amendments then article 50 gets triggered. End of!
Next week is 2nd reading - no amendments possible - just two days of debate.
Committee stage is 27 Feb and 1 March - that's when amendments get debated.
But often amendments just get debated and withdrawn at Committee - the real event will be Report Stage on 7 March - that's when amendments will get voted on for sure. If any pass it's then back to the Commons.0 -
HM anxiously waiting to give her assent.MikeL said:
Not next week.Blue_rog said:OMG The last throw of the dice for the remainers is the Lords next week. If democracy holds and there's no amendments then article 50 gets triggered. End of!
Next week is 2nd reading - no amendments possible - just two days of debate.
Committee stage is 27 Feb and 1 March - that's when amendments get debated.
But often amendnents just get debated and withdrawn at Committee - the real event will be Report Stage on 7 March - that's when amendments will get voted on for sure. If any pass it's then back to the Commons.0 -
Macron seems to be following the Cleggmania pattern.BudG said:
Macron is now going backwards and the Fillon support he has left is holding firm. Fillon said this morning that he was reneging on a promise to quit if he was indicted and will stay in the race no matter what, so looks like he is going to stay the course.rcs1000 said:
There was an IFOP poll out today with Fillon and Macron also tied for second.HYUFD said:Le Pen takes a 7% lead and Macron and Fillon tied to face her in the runoff in new Ifop poll
https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/832693801869307904
Expect Fillon to play the victim card from now on. Really can't see why Macron is such a hot favourite still, with his support evaporating despite Fillon's problems. Also less than 50% of those polled who say they will vote for Macron say they might change their mind.
I would have Macron, Fillon and Le Pen all priced around the same.
A pretty boy who attracts support on the basis of who he isn't.
0 -
And another thing: no one is "complaining that a former Prime Minister has views" - everyone, except poss the Queen and the PoW, has the right to hold views and express them; it is just that the views of this particular XPM prove him to be a swivel-eyed wazzock.another_richard said:
Would you like to put some names to the description 'more feeble minded and incontinent posters' ?AlastairMeeks said:
The whinging tonight has all been by bedwetting Leavers complaining that a former Prime Minister has views. They daren't engage with his arguments so they froth about his past.SeanT said:
There is no decision to be made. We decided. We're out. It's done.AlastairMeeks said:I see that pb's Leavers are having a night off from arguing that the decision whether to leave the EU shouldn't be influenced by the people making the argument.
Go away and think of something new to whinge about.
Much like, in a small way, the response to my article this morning by the more feeble-minded and incontinent posters.0 -
If Melenchon teamed up with Hamon they could knock out both Macron and Fillon.0
-
I'm sure some Neanderthals told each other likewise about those nasty Homo Sapiens.tyson said:
Alistair...I don't know why you even bother getting into a dialogue with the likes of the very clearly inadequate seant. You wrote a very good article this morning, all he can write is shit, crass, inane or stupid shit.AlastairMeeks said:
The whinging tonight has all been by bedwetting Leavers complaining that a former Prime Minister has views. They daren't engage with his arguments so they froth about his past.SeanT said:
There is no decision to be made. We decided. We're out. It's done.AlastairMeeks said:I see that pb's Leavers are having a night off from arguing that the decision whether to leave the EU shouldn't be influenced by the people making the argument.
Go away and think of something new to whinge about.
Much like, in a small way, the response to my article this morning by the more feeble-minded and incontinent posters.
In the long run we will win...it might take some time...but bigotry, small mindedness, blind ideology and nastiness just aren't compatible with human evolution...0 -
http://www.private-eye.co.uk/issue-1436/newsanother_richard said:Interesting that George Osborne is now on the Black Rock payroll.
This is what Black Rock predicted about the UK economy on 14th July:
' Britain will be plunged into a recession this year and be plagued with lower economic growth for another five years because of the shock decision for the UK to leave the EU, BlackRock analysts have said.
BlackRock is the largest asset manager in the world with $4.6 trillion under management as of 2015. Richard Turnill, chief investment strategist, has said that firm's "base case" is recession, meaning at a minimum, it expects the UK GDP to fall for two successive quarters in a row. '
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-will-plunge-the-uk-into-a-recession-in-the-next-year-blackrock-says-a7134616.html0
