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Polly on Newsnight whingeing about the incoming Trump. This gives me hope!

Mortimer said:

Polly on Newsnight whingeing about the incoming Trump. This gives me hope!

Never heard her not whingeing - the strange thing is everyone is writing Trump off with no upside but what if he confounds everybody and becomes a great US President. Does not seem likely but no one knows.

Mortimer said:

weejonnie said:

Mortimer said:

Polly on Newsnight whingeing about the incoming Trump. This gives me hope!

Who do they have as counterweight? Or couldn't they find anybody as blinkered as she is?

Nigel Farage, come on down!!!

He's in the US

Emily Thornberry on QT saying EU migrants come over here, live 10 to a house, undercut the natives etc etc

Hope the cheques in the post!

Honest question: views on Chris Grayling. I've never really been a fan...

Thornberry really doesn't get Qt does she. Not talking over the Chair or questioners is quite basic...

Lionel Shriver is brilliant, OTOH.

Mortimer said:

Thornberry really doesn't get Qt does she. Not talking over the Chair or questioners is quite basic...

She just accused Morgan of misquoting her when all he did was quote her

Whatever people say about Corbyn, it has to be conceded that he doesn't pressure local parties to pick his supporters - I haven't heard any suggestion at all that Copeland members got leaned on, and the choice seems a reasonable one. The Tories seem undecided whether to attack her as "far left" (their first reaction) or gloat that she's not. She should IMO be odds-on and the 2.76 on Betfair is now value.

On topic:

I rather like Gillian Troughton's politics, and they seem not too far from my own, or Tim Farron for that matter!

I don't think it is so much that the 5 Labour candidates are anti Corbyn, but rather that all the 5 were genuinely local longstanding activists with local roots. These are the people that outperform the national party, as we also see in Bromsgrove tonight too.

This bodes well for the Labour party in the long run. Corbyn is allowing the grass roots to thrive, and deliberately so. He is killing the Spadocracy.

NickPalmer said:

Whatever people say about Corbyn, it has to be conceded that he doesn't pressure local parties to pick his supporters - I haven't heard any suggestion at all that Copeland members got leaned on, and the choice seems a reasonable one. The Tories seem undecided whether to attack her as "far left" (their first reaction) or gloat that she's not. She should IMO be odds-on and the 2.76 on Betfair is now value.

And he is quite quick in his congratulations, just as she was to him at the party conference:

https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/822200313478336512

Bromptonaut said:

isam said:

Bromptonaut said:

Heard tonight a friend's daughter is losing her job because her call centre is being relocated to Lisbon following Brexit.

Real jobs, real lives.

Isn't one of the great things about the EU that it enables youngsters to work abroad?

I'm welling up!

I'm sure they can employ her in Portugal if she'll go

An interesting proposal http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-38669588 not sure it will quite work though as very expensive drugs for which there are a handful of cases (Lambert-Eaton myasthenic syndrome for example) will get through, but those cheaper drugs for which there are large numbers of cases (new antiretrovirals for HIV, or hepatitis for example) will not.

chestnut said:

Bromptonaut said:

Heard tonight a friend's daughter is losing her job because her call centre is being relocated to Lisbon following Brexit.

Real jobs, real lives.

Well, Portuguese is the world language.

Sixth biggest in the world, 3 places behind English.

isam said:

Bromptonaut said:

Heard tonight a friend's daughter is losing her job because her call centre is being relocated to Lisbon following Brexit.

Real jobs, real lives.

Isn't one of the great things about the EU that it enables youngsters to work abroad?

Well, the one thing that both the UK and EU governments (so to speak) are agreed on is that both are currently pursuing policies to increase the number of jobs in the EU...

Ishmael_Z said:

Bromptonaut said:

Heard tonight a friend's daughter is losing her job because her call centre is being relocated to Lisbon following Brexit.

Real jobs, real lives.

Without remotely doubting your veracity I have to say that I find it difficult to believe that there is not more than a simple Brexit story behind this. Surely you either want Portuguese speakers or English speakers in a call centre? And whichever you want determines which country you operate in, and you have no real use for immigrant labour in the way that say fruit growers do?

You're assuming that there are no English speakers in Lisbon

Mortimer said:

Honest question: views on Chris Grayling. I've never really been a fan...

Best Homer Simpson impersonator evah...

Today is the day the left go into collective grief.

foxinsoxuk said:

isam said:

foxinsoxuk said:

isam said:

What a wanker!

https://twitter.com/mrdominicbuxton/status/822231750130728960

aimed at anyone in particular?

A twitter person who has announced he won't be tweeting tmrw in protest at trump and in sympathy w Hillary... the link I provided seems to have been thrown down the memory hole

How will we cope!!?

I know! What a... wally!

Absolutely brilliant!!!

The SNP bloke on this week just said that, as Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain, the SNP would vote against a50 to reflect the wishes of their constituents

Then in the next breath he said he hoped labour MPs would 'develop a backbone' & vote against it... not reflecting the wishes of their constituents!!! Classic stuff

isam said:

Absolutely brilliant!!!

The SNP bloke on this week just said that, as Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain, the SNP would vote against a50 to reflect the wishes of their constituents

Then in the next breath he said he hoped labour MPs would 'develop a backbone' & vote against it... not reflecting the wishes of their constituents!!! Classic stuff

Did all Labour constituencies vote leave? I hadn't realised.

Theuniondivvie said:

isam said:

Absolutely brilliant!!!

The SNP bloke on this week just said that, as Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain, the SNP would vote against a50 to reflect the wishes of their constituents

Then in the next breath he said he hoped labour MPs would 'develop a backbone' & vote against it... not reflecting the wishes of their constituents!!! Classic stuff

Did all Labour constituencies vote leave? I hadn't realised.

No, but, to defeat the bill, MPs whose constituencies voted Leave would have to vote it down, & that's what he called for, having justified his own party voting it down by 'reflecting the wishes of their constituents'

Jess Phillips immediately pulled him up and he had no answer

I'm sure you knew that xxxx

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Today is the day the left go into collective grief.

Not sure this is a left-right thing, presuming you are talking about Trump. He is a populist, if anything. Or more likely just a representative of himself and only himself. I may not agree with the Right on some things but I generally operate under the idea that they believe in the basics of normal government.

Trump is mercurial - that is the fundamental issue.

isam said:

Theuniondivvie said:

isam said:

Absolutely brilliant!!!

The SNP bloke on this week just said that, as Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain, the SNP would vote against a50 to reflect the wishes of their constituents

Then in the next breath he said he hoped labour MPs would 'develop a backbone' & vote against it... not reflecting the wishes of their constituents!!! Classic stuff

Did all Labour constituencies vote leave? I hadn't realised.

No, but, to defeat the bill, MPs whose constituencies voted Leave would have to vote it down, & that's what he called for, having justified his own party voting it down by 'reflecting the wishes of their constituents'

Jess Phillips immediately pulled him up and he had no answer

I'm sure you knew that xxxx

As I recall he said that he hoped as many Labour MPs as possible would discover some back bone and vote against Article 50. In the context of the three line whip that was being discussed, this would refer to a goodly number of Labour mps whose constituencies voted remain.

I notice on Facebook that the young and dumb use the xxxx thing quite a bit in their interactions. Presumably you're getting a bit past qualifying in at least one of those categories.

Listening to Portillo talking about trade on This Week I'm reminded of why he did such a terrible job as Shadow Chancellor against Brown. He doesn't seem to have any deep understanding of what he's talking about.

williamglenn said:

Listening to Portillo talking about trade on This Week I'm reminded of why he did such a terrible job as Shadow Chancellor against Brown. He doesn't seem to have any deep understanding of what he's talking about.

He certainly seemed very keen on repeating that the EU was a protectionist rather than a free market as if it was the greatest piece of economic insight of the age.

Theuniondivvie said:

williamglenn said:

Listening to Portillo talking about trade on This Week I'm reminded of why he did such a terrible job as Shadow Chancellor against Brown. He doesn't seem to have any deep understanding of what he's talking about.

He certainly seemed very keen on repeating that the EU was a protectionist rather than a free market as if it was the greatest piece of economic insight of the age.

It's common for commentators to use "protectionist" as a dirty word without saying what's wrong with a bit of market protection.

Dromedary said:

As the Daily Mail reminds us of ultra-vile child abuse in Belgium (by "Europe's elite"), indicating that the Battle for Brexit will be extremely dirty (which isn't to say the elite in Belgium haven't got it coming to them), it also publishes a piece by perjurer Jonathan Aitken proclaiming that "Donald Trump will be our number one ally". So Britain's pulling out of NATO then? Because that treaty says Poland, Turkey, etc., are Britain's allies, not its "number two" allies.

When I read that "Donald Trump will be our number one ally", I have the image of a supplicant holding onto someone's trouser leg declaring "I'm your best friend".

That's because you're immature. It's been policy for almost the entire post war period that the UK and USA have a Special Relationship over and above NATO. See intelligence sharing aka Five Eyes for where this is meaningfully put into action and not just words.

Should we withdraw from Five Eyes and other agreements we have had for decades so that we can treat Turkey as an equitably number one ally?

Bromptonaut said:

Heard tonight a friend's daughter is losing her job because her call centre is being relocated to Lisbon following Brexit.

Real jobs, real lives.

Post hoc proctor hoc

Bromptonaut said:

Heard tonight a friend's daughter is losing her job because her call centre is being relocated to Lisbon following Brexit.

Real jobs, real lives.

Lisbon is the place to go if you want a call centre job:

http://www.dw.com/en/lisbon-call-center-boom-draws-eu-guest-workers/a-18269637

Unfortunately as its drawing in expats its unlikely to help with Portugal's 28% youth unemployment rate....

CarlottaVance said:

NickPalmer said:

Whatever people say about Corbyn, it has to be conceded that he doesn't pressure local parties to pick his supporters - I haven't heard any suggestion at all that Copeland members got leaned on, and the choice seems a reasonable one. The Tories seem undecided whether to attack her as "far left" (their first reaction) or gloat that she's not. She should IMO be odds-on and the 2.76 on Betfair is now value.

Definitely progress - if Corbyn leave a Labour party in the hands of local MPs he'll leave one a lot better equipped for the future. As Fox observes, the death of the spadocracy.....wonder why the Tories haven't selected yet.....I suspect May's instincts are closer to Corbyn's than Cameron's ('A list, anyone?) on this.....

I'm not sure May is so tolerant of MPs who disagree with her.

IMO this should also demonstrate to the non Corbyn wing of the party that there is a place for them... There isn't some kind of secret takeover plot.

swing_voter said:

A short election campaign sort of plays into Labour's plan, but a dark, wet and cold period in which the voters are reluctant to get out (Stoke C has not had a great history for turnout I believe) plays into the protest vote hands, as Stoke C's TH has gone onto a highly paid arts job is not likely to impress voters so I think that the benefit to Labour could be minimal if or (when) the mud starts flying. Its likely to be dirty, but then again this vote will sit with those who backed Brexit, getting them out to vote will be key and although I don't rate Doc Nuttal's chances the middle class vote may go anywhere (if they decide to vote).........leaves it quite open.

according to wiki, the lowest turnout of all in 2015 GE. I think the voters were already unimpressed with TH, so not sure whether that will be a factor. Whether the GE UKIP voters turn out or not could be instructive. (Will the BNP field a candidate? Do they offically exist again?)

CarlottaVance said:

It's a Victory for Eck!

THE senior STV journalist who was allegedly “gagged” by the SNP has resigned.
Digital politics and comment editor Stephen Daisley is to leave his job later this month.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15029547.Journalist_in_SNP__gagging__row_quits_STV/

Welcome to 'civic' SNPland......

Good news for Yes, undoubtedly!

RobD said:

CarlottaVance said:

It's a Victory for Eck!

THE senior STV journalist who was allegedly “gagged” by the SNP has resigned.
Digital politics and comment editor Stephen Daisley is to leave his job later this month.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15029547.Journalist_in_SNP__gagging__row_quits_STV/

Welcome to 'civic' SNPland......

Good news for Yes, undoubtedly!

If only the BBC would have the guts to hire him - Daisley went after politicians of any stripe - and being in government the SNP more than most. The SNP also had the thinnest skins.....

Philip_Thompson said:

Dromedary said:

As the Daily Mail reminds us of ultra-vile child abuse in Belgium (by "Europe's elite"), indicating that the Battle for Brexit will be extremely dirty (which isn't to say the elite in Belgium haven't got it coming to them), it also publishes a piece by perjurer Jonathan Aitken proclaiming that "Donald Trump will be our number one ally". So Britain's pulling out of NATO then? Because that treaty says Poland, Turkey, etc., are Britain's allies, not its "number two" allies.

When I read that "Donald Trump will be our number one ally", I have the image of a supplicant holding onto someone's trouser leg declaring "I'm your best friend".

That's because you're immature. It's been policy for almost the entire post war period that the UK and USA have a Special Relationship over and above NATO. See intelligence sharing aka Five Eyes for where this is meaningfully put into action and not just words.

Should we withdraw from Five Eyes and other agreements we have had for decades so that we can treat Turkey as an equitably number one ally?

We need to be careful about sharing intelligence with the Trump regime given he is totally untrustworthy and may have links to the Russian regime. The strategic interests of the US may well be diametrically opposed to our own. We want a strong NATO, a fully-functioning EU and as much free trade as possible. Trump doesn't.

NickPalmer said:

Whatever people say about Corbyn, it has to be conceded that he doesn't pressure local parties to pick his supporters - I haven't heard any suggestion at all that Copeland members got leaned on, and the choice seems a reasonable one. The Tories seem undecided whether to attack her as "far left" (their first reaction) or gloat that she's not. She should IMO be odds-on and the 2.76 on Betfair is now value.

NickPalmer said:

Whatever people say about Corbyn, it has to be conceded that he doesn't pressure local parties to pick his supporters - I haven't heard any suggestion at all that Copeland members got leaned on, and the choice seems a reasonable one. The Tories seem undecided whether to attack her as "far left" (their first reaction) or gloat that she's not. She should IMO be odds-on and the 2.76 on Betfair is now value.

Corbyn did try to interfere and he failed. His supporters largely sit in front of computers. Thet don't get involved at CLP level.
https://twitter.com/polhomeeditor/status/822215830947725312

CarlottaVance said:

Ally_B said:

CarlottaVance said:

Bromptonaut said:

Heard tonight a friend's daughter is losing her job because her call centre is being relocated to Lisbon following Brexit.

Real jobs, real lives.

Lisbon is the place to go if you want a call centre job:

http://www.dw.com/en/lisbon-call-center-boom-draws-eu-guest-workers/a-18269637

Unfortunately as its drawing in expats its unlikely to help with Portugal's 28% youth unemployment rate....

Those jobs will go to the Portuguese youth in 2019 when the Brits are thrown out/invited to leave in response to what we will be doing to our EU nationals.

We're deporting them, are we?

News to Mrs May!

The same Mrs May who wanted an early deal to secure their rights but was rebuffed.

Philip_Thompson said:

Dromedary said:

As the Daily Mail reminds us of ultra-vile child abuse in Belgium (by "Europe's elite"), indicating that the Battle for Brexit will be extremely dirty (which isn't to say the elite in Belgium haven't got it coming to them), it also publishes a piece by perjurer Jonathan Aitken proclaiming that "Donald Trump will be our number one ally". So Britain's pulling out of NATO then? Because that treaty says Poland, Turkey, etc., are Britain's allies, not its "number two" allies.

When I read that "Donald Trump will be our number one ally", I have the image of a supplicant holding onto someone's trouser leg declaring "I'm your best friend".

That's because you're immature. It's been policy for almost the entire post war period that the UK and USA have a Special Relationship over and above NATO. See intelligence sharing aka Five Eyes for where this is meaningfully put into action and not just words.

Should we withdraw from Five Eyes and other agreements we have had for decades so that we can treat Turkey as an equitably number one ally?

"Immature" indeed That's not an alliance; that's a protectorate. Only one of the two countries put its nuclear weapons on the other's territory, and only one keeps two enormous electronic spy bases (perhaps mature people call them something different?) on the other's territory too - in one case clicking their fingers and having the indigenous population evacuated, although that wasn't considered necessary to do in North Yorkshire.

I'd love to see Britain withdraw from both NATO and UKUSA. The latter was only officially admitted to exist nearly 60 years after it was agreed - talk about ignominy! Britain to the US may have been number one poodle for a time; now I don't think it's even that, for all the importance of the money-laundering network centred on the City of London and with an infrastructure spanning many outposts. The attitude in the Foreign Office has long been that the Yanks have the tech and can sling guns whereas the Brits have the brains and can understand the fuzzywuzzies' and tribal leaders' minds. Strange then that most countries' elites mostly prefer to send their brats to Ivy League universities rather than to Britain's two, if they get the chance. Who laughs at whom behind whose backs? Where we agree is that the relationship involves far more than NATO, but I wouldn't call it an "alliance".

rcs1000 said:

Story of the day: http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/the-inauguration-parade-almost-had-tanks-and-missile-la-1791399954

They should have done it!

Charles said:

Bromptonaut said:

Heard tonight a friend's daughter is losing her job because her call centre is being relocated to Lisbon following Brexit.

Real jobs, real lives.

Post hoc proctor hoc

I think you missed an 'ergo' in there.

Yesterday, I heard a story (whether true or not is another matter) that Goldman was going to substantially reduce its London footprint. The European back-office was going to Warsaw, sales & trading for the bulk of European clients would go to Frankfurt, and a number of investment banking jobs would be moved back to the US.

I don't know the veracity of the story, although the source is a plausible one.

CarlottaVance said:

Deliberate attack on Melbourne pedestrians by car driver - one confirmed dead, other reports three...

http://www.itv.com/news/2017-01-20/three-dead-and-20-injured-after-car-ploughs-into-pedestrians/

Police saying not terror related, one witness claims driver chanting Allahu Akbar

It's the difference between "inspired by" and "organised by"...

rcs1000 said:

Dromedary said:

Theuniondivvie said:

williamglenn said:

Listening to Portillo talking about trade on This Week I'm reminded of why he did such a terrible job as Shadow Chancellor against Brown. He doesn't seem to have any deep understanding of what he's talking about.

He certainly seemed very keen on repeating that the EU was a protectionist rather than a free market as if it was the greatest piece of economic insight of the age.

It's common for commentators to use "protectionist" as a dirty word without saying what's wrong with a bit of market protection.

Protectionism moves power from the individual (to make their own choice about whom to buy from) to the group.

It also tends to lead to corporatism, where chosen industries are 'protected' from foreign competition, to the benefit of the owners of those businesses, and the detriment of consumers.

The next paragraph of that is that corporatism leads naturally to corruption, because there is now a lot of money in getting politicians to choose your industry to be protected from competition (while also forcing your suppliers to remain unprotected to keep your own costs down).

After that comes George Monbiot's Pollution Paradox:
https://twitter.com/GeorgeMonbiot/status/822072394680586240
...except in this case we're not talking about dirty companies, we're talking about shitty, inefficient ones.

edmundintokyo said:

rcs1000 said:

Dromedary said:

Theuniondivvie said:

williamglenn said:

Listening to Portillo talking about trade on This Week I'm reminded of why he did such a terrible job as Shadow Chancellor against Brown. He doesn't seem to have any deep understanding of what he's talking about.

He certainly seemed very keen on repeating that the EU was a protectionist rather than a free market as if it was the greatest piece of economic insight of the age.

It's common for commentators to use "protectionist" as a dirty word without saying what's wrong with a bit of market protection.

Protectionism moves power from the individual (to make their own choice about whom to buy from) to the group.

It also tends to lead to corporatism, where chosen industries are 'protected' from foreign competition, to the benefit of the owners of those businesses, and the detriment of consumers.

The next paragraph of that is that corporatism leads naturally to corruption, because there is now a lot of money in getting politicians to choose your industry to be protected from competition (while also forcing your suppliers to remain unprotected to keep your own costs down).

After that comes George Monbiot's Pollution Paradox:
https://twitter.com/GeorgeMonbiot/status/822072394680586240
...except in this case we're not talking about dirty companies, we're talking about shitty, inefficient ones.

I'm not normally a Monbiot fan, but that's an excellent quote.

CarlottaVance said:

rkrkrk said:

CarlottaVance said:

NickPalmer said:

Whatever people say about Corbyn, it has to be conceded that he doesn't pressure local parties to pick his supporters - I haven't heard any suggestion at all that Copeland members got leaned on, and the choice seems a reasonable one. The Tories seem undecided whether to attack her as "far left" (their first reaction) or gloat that she's not. She should IMO be odds-on and the 2.76 on Betfair is now value.

Definitely progress - if Corbyn leave a Labour party in the hands of local MPs he'll leave one a lot better equipped for the future. As Fox observes, the death of the spadocracy.....wonder why the Tories haven't selected yet.....I suspect May's instincts are closer to Corbyn's than Cameron's ('A list, anyone?) on this.....

I'm not sure May is so tolerant of MPs who disagree with her.

Evidence?

She has much stronger links with the Constituency Associations than Cameron ever did.....

And while we're complimenting Corbyn on his open approach, there could be an alternative explanation.....he just doesn't think Parliament that important to the movement

I was thinking of her spat with Nicky Morgan and the fairly brutal way she removed Osborne and others from power at the first opportunity.

Not a huge amount of evidence though I admit.

Morning. Given that Labour have now chosen a sensible local candidate, they should really be the favourites to retain the seat. Still 2.6 on Betfair, against 1.8 for the Tories.

rcs1000 said:

Charles said:

Bromptonaut said:

Heard tonight a friend's daughter is losing her job because her call centre is being relocated to Lisbon following Brexit.

Real jobs, real lives.

Post hoc proctor hoc

I think you missed an 'ergo' in there.

Yesterday, I heard a story (whether true or not is another matter) that Goldman was going to substantially reduce its London footprint. The European back-office was going to Warsaw, sales & trading for the bulk of European clients would go to Frankfurt, and a number of investment banking jobs would be moved back to the US.

I don't know the veracity of the story, although the source is a plausible one.

Indie reporting German press:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-latest-news-goldman-sachs-move-half-london-jobs-3000-employees-new-york-europe-eu-frankfurt-a7534776.html

Now that is really bed blocking!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-38680031

foxinsoxuk said:

Now that is really bed blocking!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-38680031

I've never heard of that before, needing a court order to get someone out of hospital. Does this happen from time to time in England? Why on earth did they feed him?