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SystemSystem Posts: 12,651
edited January 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » This week’s PB/Polling Matters podcast looks at Theresa May’s speech and looks ahead to Trump’s inauguration

This week’s podcast is split into two parts.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    First!
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,819
    Could Parliament ammend the Treaty of Versailles after it had been agreed? I doubt it.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    Simon Jenkins on May:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/18/brexit-poker-theresa-may-strategically-sensible
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    Quentin Letts

    For the umpteenth week, PMQs drifted ten minutes over time. Speaker Bercow insists, unnecessarily, on calling every MP on the Order Paper.

    This stretching of PMQs is diluting its potency. Many people leave before the end.

    The next Speaker – and we must hope we have one sooner than later – should honour the session’s half-hour time limit.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4134526/QUENTIN-LETTS-sees-Mrs-opponent-caning-PMQs.html

    Has something officially been said about Bercow?

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited January 2017
    Gallowgate said:

    Could Parliament ammend the Treaty of Versailles after it had been agreed? I doubt it.

    No, but the treaty of Versaillies is hardly an example of good negotiating!
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,942
    edited January 2017
    Why don't the Tories and UKIP amalgamate? There isn't a fag paper between them since TM took over.

    And think of the spin offs... UKIP to be led by a woman and The Tories to have a deputy from Bootle.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 64,186
    Within reason, I think I'd rather be anywhere else in the world this week than in Davos:

    http://www.bbc.com/capital/story/20170117-want-to-change-the-world-dont-look-to-davos
  • AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    edited January 2017
    Roger said:

    Why don't the Tories and UKIP amalgamate? There isn't a fag paper between them since TM took over.

    And think of the spin offs... UKIP to be led by a woman and The Tories to have a deputy from Bootle.

    Strange that people said the same about the Tories and the LDs between 2010-2015 with Cameron/Clegg both being basically orange book LDs.

    But you're hyperventilating is noted. There is masses of difference between the two, Tezzie is a rather unexciting solid middle of the road Tory. Just because you dont approve of her giving the voters the only option realistically on the table that matches a Leave vote, it doesnt make her a kipper.
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 821
    When the economic pain materialises post Brexit (and the signs are now there with the announcements from HSBC & UBS), will the Tories be so popular? Corbyn talked far more sense at PMQ's yesterday.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    FPT
    surbiton said:

    When did it become a fact in the UK that a referendum was no longer advisory and Parliament just a side show ?

    It appears Parliament's job is just to accept a deal or reject it. It cannot amend.

    What a inglorious end to 900 years of tradition and gradual gain of power.

    Has always been so that Parliament can either approve or reject a Treaty. Parliament has never been able to amend them.

    Perhaps you might think to point to Amendments our Parliament made to Lisbon? Or Nice? Just imagine if Parliament had been able to amend Maastricht! You're being absurd.
  • AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    edited January 2017
    daodao said:

    When the economic pain materialises post Brexit (and the signs are now there with the announcements from HSBC & UBS), will the Tories be so popular? Corbyn talked far more sense at PMQ's yesterday.

    The voters are not listening, the Tories did a good job framing him as a terrorist appeasing marxist a year ago. Labour need a new person at the top to get a hearing no matter how good they might sound to the politically engaged.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    The Spectator on the Government's carrot-and-stick approach to the EU:

    "Perhaps the most useful thing that the May government has learned in the last six month is what other EU countries fear. Since the referendum, parliaments all over Europe have been setting up committees to cover the negotiations. On their visits to London, the assurance they have most frequently sought from British ministers and officials has been that this country won’t turn itself into Singapore West, slashing taxes and regulation to attract business. This is why both Philip Hammond and May herself have made clear that this is indeed how the UK will respond if there is no reasonable offer from the EU."

    http://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/theresa-may-has-taken-control-this-is-a-brexit-plan-the-eu-cant-stop/

    Well quite. Cameron played the doormat and got virtually nothing. Theresa May can hardly get less than nothing if the EU goes all stampy feet. Also, it's another nail in the coffin of the 'Theresa Maybe' canard. The Government wasn't just making up lost time for all the preparations that Cameron forbade, it was also talking to EU27 delegations and gathering information about their positions. Very sensible.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,933
    edited January 2017
    daodao said:

    When the economic pain materialises post Brexit (and the signs are now there with the announcements from HSBC & UBS), will the Tories be so popular? Corbyn talked far more sense at PMQ's yesterday.

    HSBC and UBS losing a minority of city workers to Paris and Frankfurt will make zero impact on Tory fortunes in northern and midlands marginals, even on the latest yougov most do expect some economic hit from Brexit but they voted for it to get border control
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,982
    edited January 2017
    daodao said:

    When the economic pain materialises post Brexit (and the signs are now there with the announcements from HSBC & UBS), will the Tories be so popular? Corbyn talked far more sense at PMQ's yesterday.

    Why would voters be worried about some bankers moving from London ? HSBC has been closing branches and ditching 1000s of jobs for the last 10 years and nobody cared.

    JLR meanwhile is waiting for permission to build a new factory in Coventry which will create over 750 direct jobs and more in the supply chain. #realjobs

    http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/jaguar-land-rover-massive-coventry-12468157

    #realjobs
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,933
    Roger said:

    Why don't the Tories and UKIP amalgamate? There isn't a fag paper between them since TM took over.

    And think of the spin offs... UKIP to be led by a woman and The Tories to have a deputy from Bootle.

    At the moment May is squeezing the UKIP vote because it looks like full, hard Brexit. In reality though it will be somewhere between hard and soft Brexit with some EU budget contributions continuing and free movement controlled by a job offer for areas financial services and car manufacturing and pharmaceuticals so UKIP will still campaign on a hard Brexit platform
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,942
    AlsoIndigo said:

    Roger said:

    Why don't the Tories and UKIP amalgamate? There isn't a fag paper between them since TM took over.

    And think of the spin offs... UKIP to be led by a woman and The Tories to have a deputy from Bootle.

    Strange that people said the same about the Tories and the LDs between 2010-2015 with Cameron/Clegg both being basically orange book LDs.

    But you're hyperventilating is noted. There is masses of difference between the two, Tezzie is a rather unexciting solid middle of the road Tory. Just because you dont approve of her giving the voters the only option realistically on the table that matches a Leave vote, it doesnt make her a kipper.
    Her time at the Home office makes her a kipper. An Italian friend of mine who bought a small cafe with a staff of five had a visit from her storm troopers two months after opening. Eight officers came in one night and in front of customers asked them all to show their passports. One who washed up for a couple of hours on Saturday nights was Algerian. He was taken away and my Italian chum was fined £15,000.

    He's now out of business.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    News (really just confirmation) that we're leaving the single market sinking in:

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2650479/brexit-will-come-as-a-massive-shock-to-the-eus-budget-brussels-think-tank-warns-as-it-reveals-there-is-no-easy-way-to-replace-britains-8-5bn-a-year-contributions/
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    Roger said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    Roger said:

    Why don't the Tories and UKIP amalgamate? There isn't a fag paper between them since TM took over.

    And think of the spin offs... UKIP to be led by a woman and The Tories to have a deputy from Bootle.

    Strange that people said the same about the Tories and the LDs between 2010-2015 with Cameron/Clegg both being basically orange book LDs.

    But you're hyperventilating is noted. There is masses of difference between the two, Tezzie is a rather unexciting solid middle of the road Tory. Just because you dont approve of her giving the voters the only option realistically on the table that matches a Leave vote, it doesnt make her a kipper.
    Her time at the Home office makes her a kipper. An Italian friend of mine who bought a small cafe with a staff of five had a visit from her storm troopers two months after opening. Eight officers came in one night and in front of customers asked them all to show their passports. One who washed up for a couple of hours on Saturday nights was Algerian. He was taken away and my Italian chum was fined £15,000.

    He's now out of business.
    What are you objecting to? The law, or its enforcement?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,942
    CarlottaVance said:

    News (really just confirmation) that we're leaving the single market sinking in:

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2650479/brexit-will-come-as-a-massive-shock-to-the-eus-budget-brussels-think-tank-warns-as-it-reveals-there-is-no-easy-way-to-replace-britains-8-5bn-a-year-contributions/

    Carlotta'a been abducted by aliens. The real one would never link to the SUN
  • PaulyPauly Posts: 897
    Roger said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    Roger said:

    Why don't the Tories and UKIP amalgamate? There isn't a fag paper between them since TM took over.

    And think of the spin offs... UKIP to be led by a woman and The Tories to have a deputy from Bootle.

    Strange that people said the same about the Tories and the LDs between 2010-2015 with Cameron/Clegg both being basically orange book LDs.

    But you're hyperventilating is noted. There is masses of difference between the two, Tezzie is a rather unexciting solid middle of the road Tory. Just because you dont approve of her giving the voters the only option realistically on the table that matches a Leave vote, it doesnt make her a kipper.
    Her time at the Home office makes her a kipper. An Italian friend of mine who bought a small cafe with a staff of five had a visit from her storm troopers two months after opening. Eight officers came in one night and in front of customers asked them all to show their passports. One who washed up for a couple of hours on Saturday nights was Algerian. He was taken away and my Italian chum was fined £15,000.

    He's now out of business.
    Man flouts law. Gets punished. All in a day's work?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,942
    edited January 2017
    Alanbrooke said:

    daodao said:

    When the economic pain materialises post Brexit (and the signs are now there with the announcements from HSBC & UBS), will the Tories be so popular? Corbyn talked far more sense at PMQ's yesterday.

    Why would voters be worried about some bankers moving from London ? HSBC has been closing branches and ditching 1000s of jobs for the last 10 years and nobody cared.

    JLR meanwhile is waiting for permission to build a new factory in Coventry which will create over 750 direct jobs and more in the supply chain. #realjobs

    http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/jaguar-land-rover-massive-coventry-12468157

    #realjobs
    Because it is the first rains before the flood. The SERVICE industries which provide 70% of the UK's wealth are going to leave.

    PS. Carlotta the SUN and now Alanbrooke the Coventry Telegraph. Things are certainly looking up post Brexit
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 821
    Alanbrooke said:

    daodao said:

    When the economic pain materialises post Brexit (and the signs are now there with the announcements from HSBC & UBS), will the Tories be so popular? Corbyn talked far more sense at PMQ's yesterday.

    Why would voters be worried about some bankers moving from London ? HSBC has been closing branches and ditching 1000s of jobs for the last 10 years and nobody cared.

    JLR meanwhile is waiting for permission to build a new factory in Coventry which will create over 750 direct jobs and more in the supply chain. #realjobs

    http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/jaguar-land-rover-massive-coventry-12468157

    #realjobs
    The UK is close to bankruptcy and the loss of tens of billions to the exchequer of taxes on lucrative banking activities and wealthy bankers in London will hit the UK hard. The north of England & Wales are economic basket cases living on subsidies generated elsewhere in the UK.
  • AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    edited January 2017
    Roger said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    Roger said:

    Why don't the Tories and UKIP amalgamate? There isn't a fag paper between them since TM took over.

    And think of the spin offs... UKIP to be led by a woman and The Tories to have a deputy from Bootle.

    Strange that people said the same about the Tories and the LDs between 2010-2015 with Cameron/Clegg both being basically orange book LDs.

    But you're hyperventilating is noted. There is masses of difference between the two, Tezzie is a rather unexciting solid middle of the road Tory. Just because you dont approve of her giving the voters the only option realistically on the table that matches a Leave vote, it doesnt make her a kipper.
    Her time at the Home office makes her a kipper. An Italian friend of mine who bought a small cafe with a staff of five had a visit from her storm troopers two months after opening. Eight officers came in one night and in front of customers asked them all to show their passports. One who washed up for a couple of hours on Saturday nights was Algerian. He was taken away and my Italian chum was fined £15,000.

    He's now out of business.
    I assume the bit you are glossing over here is that possibly your friend was employing an illegal immigrant without the appropriate paperwork ?

    https://www.gov.uk/check-job-applicant-right-to-work

    Home office enforce the law shocker
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,235
    Roger said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    daodao said:

    When the economic pain materialises post Brexit (and the signs are now there with the announcements from HSBC & UBS), will the Tories be so popular? Corbyn talked far more sense at PMQ's yesterday.

    Why would voters be worried about some bankers moving from London ? HSBC has been closing branches and ditching 1000s of jobs for the last 10 years and nobody cared.

    JLR meanwhile is waiting for permission to build a new factory in Coventry which will create over 750 direct jobs and more in the supply chain. #realjobs

    http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/jaguar-land-rover-massive-coventry-12468157

    #realjobs
    Because it is the first rains before the flood. The SERVICE industries which provide 70% of the UK's wealth are going to leave.
    You mean my barber is off to cut hair somewhere else? And I won't be able to get a Costa afterwards or, if I am feeling particularly guilty, go to my gym, or insure my car to get there? Services are a very wide range of commercial activities the vast majority of which are going precisely nowhere.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    DavidL said:

    Roger said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    daodao said:

    When the economic pain materialises post Brexit (and the signs are now there with the announcements from HSBC & UBS), will the Tories be so popular? Corbyn talked far more sense at PMQ's yesterday.

    Why would voters be worried about some bankers moving from London ? HSBC has been closing branches and ditching 1000s of jobs for the last 10 years and nobody cared.

    JLR meanwhile is waiting for permission to build a new factory in Coventry which will create over 750 direct jobs and more in the supply chain. #realjobs

    http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/jaguar-land-rover-massive-coventry-12468157

    #realjobs
    Because it is the first rains before the flood. The SERVICE industries which provide 70% of the UK's wealth are going to leave.
    You mean my barber is off to cut hair somewhere else? And I won't be able to get a Costa afterwards or, if I am feeling particularly guilty, go to my gym, or insure my car to get there? Services are a very wide range of commercial activities the vast majority of which are going precisely nowhere.
    They can go bust.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,982
    daodao said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    daodao said:

    When the economic pain materialises post Brexit (and the signs are now there with the announcements from HSBC & UBS), will the Tories be so popular? Corbyn talked far more sense at PMQ's yesterday.

    Why would voters be worried about some bankers moving from London ? HSBC has been closing branches and ditching 1000s of jobs for the last 10 years and nobody cared.

    JLR meanwhile is waiting for permission to build a new factory in Coventry which will create over 750 direct jobs and more in the supply chain. #realjobs

    http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/jaguar-land-rover-massive-coventry-12468157

    #realjobs
    The UK is close to bankruptcy and the loss of tens of billions to the exchequer of taxes on lucrative banking activities and wealthy bankers in London will hit the UK hard. The north of England & Wales are economic basket cases living on subsidies generated elsewhere in the UK.
    you appear to have missed the fact that were in the toilet because our finance sector went tits up and we all had to bail it out.

    Regenerating the regions and a more even distribution of wealth across the country is more of a priority than sucking up to tax avoiding bankers. The London centric finance approach has failed.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,235
    AlastairMeeks said:

    DavidL said:

    Roger said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    daodao said:

    When the economic pain materialises post Brexit (and the signs are now there with the announcements from HSBC & UBS), will the Tories be so popular? Corbyn talked far more sense at PMQ's yesterday.

    Why would voters be worried about some bankers moving from London ? HSBC has been closing branches and ditching 1000s of jobs for the last 10 years and nobody cared.

    JLR meanwhile is waiting for permission to build a new factory in Coventry which will create over 750 direct jobs and more in the supply chain. #realjobs

    http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/jaguar-land-rover-massive-coventry-12468157

    #realjobs
    Because it is the first rains before the flood. The SERVICE industries which provide 70% of the UK's wealth are going to leave.
    You mean my barber is off to cut hair somewhere else? And I won't be able to get a Costa afterwards or, if I am feeling particularly guilty, go to my gym, or insure my car to get there? Services are a very wide range of commercial activities the vast majority of which are going precisely nowhere.
    They can go bust.
    Of course they can and there are far too many coffee shops in particular in town as using shops to sell physical goods gradually falls out of fashion. But suggesting that 70% of our economy is about to "leave" was just silly.
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 821
    Alanbrooke said:

    daodao said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    daodao said:

    When the economic pain materialises post Brexit (and the signs are now there with the announcements from HSBC & UBS), will the Tories be so popular? Corbyn talked far more sense at PMQ's yesterday.

    Why would voters be worried about some bankers moving from London ? HSBC has been closing branches and ditching 1000s of jobs for the last 10 years and nobody cared.

    JLR meanwhile is waiting for permission to build a new factory in Coventry which will create over 750 direct jobs and more in the supply chain. #realjobs

    http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/jaguar-land-rover-massive-coventry-12468157

    #realjobs
    The UK is close to bankruptcy and the loss of tens of billions to the exchequer of taxes on lucrative banking activities and wealthy bankers in London will hit the UK hard. The north of England & Wales are economic basket cases living on subsidies generated elsewhere in the UK.
    you appear to have missed the fact that were in the toilet because our finance sector went tits up and we all had to bail it out.

    Regenerating the regions and a more even distribution of wealth across the country is more of a priority than sucking up to tax avoiding bankers. The London centric finance approach has failed.
    One thing that would help financially (and politically) is to transfer the 6 counties (who voted Remain) to Eire. This would also avoid the problem of attempting to create an unenforceable hard border across Ulster. Diehard unionists could emigrate to England.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,151
    edited January 2017
    daodao said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    daodao said:

    When the economic pain materialises post Brexit (and the signs are now there with the announcements from HSBC & UBS), will the Tories be so popular? Corbyn talked far more sense at PMQ's yesterday.

    Why would voters be worried about some bankers moving from London ? HSBC has been closing branches and ditching 1000s of jobs for the last 10 years and nobody cared.

    JLR meanwhile is waiting for permission to build a new factory in Coventry which will create over 750 direct jobs and more in the supply chain. #realjobs

    http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/jaguar-land-rover-massive-coventry-12468157

    #realjobs
    The UK is close to bankruptcy and the loss of tens of billions to the exchequer of taxes on lucrative banking activities and wealthy bankers in London will hit the UK hard. The north of England & Wales are economic basket cases living on subsidies generated elsewhere in the UK.
    That's a dangerous argument. After all, the City is only there at all because huge subsidies from the rest of the country rescued them from the disastrous decisions of the mob bosses loosely known as their boards.

    We have spent far more in the last ten years on subsidising RBS than we spend on education in Yorkshire. Therefore even though the banking sector is economically vital most people outside the south east would probably be thrilled to see it shrink and move away.

    The pain would come later, and it may even be that those who are not subsidised but are ruthlessly screwed by these organisations on fees, charges and mis-selling of PPI while those who should have been jailed walk off with huge salaries and super injunctions would think it a price worth paying.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,942
    edited January 2017
    AlsoIndigo said:

    Roger said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    Roger said:

    Why don't the Tories and UKIP amalgamate? There isn't a fag paper between them since TM took over.

    And think of the spin offs... UKIP to be led by a woman and The Tories to have a deputy from Bootle.

    Strange that people said the same about the Tories and the LDs between 2010-2015 with Cameron/Clegg both being basically orange book LDs.

    But you're hyperventilating is noted. There is masses of difference between the two, Tezzie is a rather unexciting solid middle of the road Tory. Just because you dont approve of her giving the voters the only option realistically on the table that matches a Leave vote, it doesnt make her a kipper.
    Her time at the Home office makes her a kipper. An Italian friend of mine who bought a small cafe with a staff of five had a visit from her storm troopers two months after opening. Eight officers came in one night and in front of customers asked them all to show their passports. One who washed up for a couple of hours on Saturday nights was Algerian. He was taken away and my Italian chum was fined £15,000.

    He's now out of business.
    I assume the bit you are glossing over here is that possibly your friend was employing an illegal immigrant without the appropriate paperwork ?

    https://www.gov.uk/check-job-applicant-right-to-work
    Home office enforce the law shocker
    I wasn't glossing over it. He was an academic who decided to try his hand at running a small cafe. He inherited the staff and did everything correctly incuding paying his staff well over the minimum wage. He had missed the washer upper because he was part time and only worked occasional Saturdays and they all thought he was French. But there is no appeal and no one to speak to. It was Kafkaesque
  • GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,205
    CarlottaVance said:


    Has something officially been said about Bercow?

    I suspect that Letts is alluding to something I caught on yesterday's Daily Politics, which was on the lines that Bercow said he would do 9 years as Speaker, 8 years ago.

  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    Roger said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    Roger said:

    Why don't the Tories and UKIP amalgamate? There isn't a fag paper between them since TM took over.

    And think of the spin offs... UKIP to be led by a woman and The Tories to have a deputy from Bootle.

    Strange that people said the same about the Tories and the LDs between 2010-2015 with Cameron/Clegg both being basically orange book LDs.

    But you're hyperventilating is noted. There is masses of difference between the two, Tezzie is a rather unexciting solid middle of the road Tory. Just because you dont approve of her giving the voters the only option realistically on the table that matches a Leave vote, it doesnt make her a kipper.
    Her time at the Home office makes her a kipper. An Italian friend of mine who bought a small cafe with a staff of five had a visit from her storm troopers two months after opening. Eight officers came in one night and in front of customers asked them all to show their passports. One who washed up for a couple of hours on Saturday nights was Algerian. He was taken away and my Italian chum was fined £15,000.

    He's now out of business.
    So he was using illegals to make his profits - just the sort of 'businessman ' no country needs.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    Roger said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    daodao said:

    When the economic pain materialises post Brexit (and the signs are now there with the announcements from HSBC & UBS), will the Tories be so popular? Corbyn talked far more sense at PMQ's yesterday.

    Why would voters be worried about some bankers moving from London ? HSBC has been closing branches and ditching 1000s of jobs for the last 10 years and nobody cared.

    JLR meanwhile is waiting for permission to build a new factory in Coventry which will create over 750 direct jobs and more in the supply chain. #realjobs

    http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/jaguar-land-rover-massive-coventry-12468157

    #realjobs
    Because it is the first rains before the flood. The SERVICE industries which provide 70% of the UK's wealth are going to leave.

    PS. Carlotta the SUN and now Alanbrooke the Coventry Telegraph. Things are certainly looking up post Brexit
    Ahh - flood first followed by fire , plague and pestilence no doubt. Has this strategy ever been tried before we wonder....
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 56,600
    AlsoIndigo said:

    Roger said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    Roger said:

    Why don't the Tories and UKIP amalgamate? There isn't a fag paper between them since TM took over.

    And think of the spin offs... UKIP to be led by a woman and The Tories to have a deputy from Bootle.

    Strange that people said the same about the Tories and the LDs between 2010-2015 with Cameron/Clegg both being basically orange book LDs.

    But you're hyperventilating is noted. There is masses of difference between the two, Tezzie is a rather unexciting solid middle of the road Tory. Just because you dont approve of her giving the voters the only option realistically on the table that matches a Leave vote, it doesnt make her a kipper.
    Her time at the Home office makes her a kipper. An Italian friend of mine who bought a small cafe with a staff of five had a visit from her storm troopers two months after opening. Eight officers came in one night and in front of customers asked them all to show their passports. One who washed up for a couple of hours on Saturday nights was Algerian. He was taken away and my Italian chum was fined £15,000.

    He's now out of business.
    I assume the bit you are glossing over here is that possibly your friend was employing an illegal immigrant without the appropriate paperwork ?

    https://www.gov.uk/check-job-applicant-right-to-work

    Home office enforce the law shocker
    A relative of mine has been running a construction business for a while. If visits/checks for staff who are illegal immigrants (and fines for employing people not eligible to work) make the Home Secretary of the day a UKIPer, then the following is a handy list of UKIPers.....

    Jack Straw
    David Blunkett
    Charles Clarke
    John Reid
    Jacqui Smith
    Alan Johnson
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,151
    felix said:

    Roger said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    daodao said:

    When the economic pain materialises post Brexit (and the signs are now there with the announcements from HSBC & UBS), will the Tories be so popular? Corbyn talked far more sense at PMQ's yesterday.

    Why would voters be worried about some bankers moving from London ? HSBC has been closing branches and ditching 1000s of jobs for the last 10 years and nobody cared.

    JLR meanwhile is waiting for permission to build a new factory in Coventry which will create over 750 direct jobs and more in the supply chain. #realjobs

    http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/jaguar-land-rover-massive-coventry-12468157

    #realjobs
    Because it is the first rains before the flood. The SERVICE industries which provide 70% of the UK's wealth are going to leave.

    PS. Carlotta the SUN and now Alanbrooke the Coventry Telegraph. Things are certainly looking up post Brexit
    Ahh - flood first followed by fire , plague and pestilence no doubt. Has this strategy ever been tried before we wonder....
    It persuaded Pharaoh to let the oppressed foreigners go :smiley:
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    Roger said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    Roger said:

    Why don't the Tories and UKIP amalgamate? There isn't a fag paper between them since TM took over.

    And think of the spin offs... UKIP to be led by a woman and The Tories to have a deputy from Bootle.

    Strange that people said the same about the Tories and the LDs between 2010-2015 with Cameron/Clegg both being basically orange book LDs.

    But you're hyperventilating is noted. There is masses of difference between the two, Tezzie is a rather unexciting solid middle of the road Tory. Just because you dont approve of her giving the voters the only option realistically on the table that matches a Leave vote, it doesnt make her a kipper.
    Her time at the Home office makes her a kipper. An Italian friend of mine who bought a small cafe with a staff of five had a visit from her storm troopers two months after opening. Eight officers came in one night and in front of customers asked them all to show their passports. One who washed up for a couple of hours on Saturday nights was Algerian. He was taken away and my Italian chum was fined £15,000.

    He's now out of business.
    What's the problem exactly? If the authorities were heavy handed ok that might be a point, but otherwise it's called law enforcement.

    Why was your friend employing someone who was apparently illegal is the more pertinent question? All the locals looking for a few quid been beamed up by aliens? Never heard of Curry's wide range of domestic appliances?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,235
    Gadfly said:

    CarlottaVance said:


    Has something officially been said about Bercow?

    I suspect that Letts is alluding to something I caught on yesterday's Daily Politics, which was on the lines that Bercow said he would do 9 years as Speaker, 8 years ago.

    I have been finding Bercow a lot less irritating of late, possibly because the Commons is a lot duller with May in charge and I have been paying less attention but it may be he has calmed down a bit. Or Cameron went out of his way to wind him up.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,235
    ydoethur said:

    felix said:

    Roger said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    daodao said:

    When the economic pain materialises post Brexit (and the signs are now there with the announcements from HSBC & UBS), will the Tories be so popular? Corbyn talked far more sense at PMQ's yesterday.

    Why would voters be worried about some bankers moving from London ? HSBC has been closing branches and ditching 1000s of jobs for the last 10 years and nobody cared.

    JLR meanwhile is waiting for permission to build a new factory in Coventry which will create over 750 direct jobs and more in the supply chain. #realjobs

    http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/jaguar-land-rover-massive-coventry-12468157

    #realjobs
    Because it is the first rains before the flood. The SERVICE industries which provide 70% of the UK's wealth are going to leave.

    PS. Carlotta the SUN and now Alanbrooke the Coventry Telegraph. Things are certainly looking up post Brexit
    Ahh - flood first followed by fire , plague and pestilence no doubt. Has this strategy ever been tried before we wonder....
    It persuaded Pharaoh to let the oppressed foreigners go :smiley:
    Unfortunately OFSTEAD inspectors are made of sterner stuff.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 56,600
    Roger said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    Roger said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    Roger said:

    Why don't the Tories and UKIP amalgamate? There isn't a fag paper between them since TM took over.

    And think of the spin offs... UKIP to be led by a woman and The Tories to have a deputy from Bootle.

    Strange that people said the same about the Tories and the LDs between 2010-2015 with Cameron/Clegg both being basically orange book LDs.

    But you're hyperventilating is noted. There is masses of difference between the two, Tezzie is a rather unexciting solid middle of the road Tory. Just because you dont approve of her giving the voters the only option realistically on the table that matches a Leave vote, it doesnt make her a kipper.
    Her time at the Home office makes her a kipper. An Italian friend of mine who bought a small cafe with a staff of five had a visit from her storm troopers two months after opening. Eight officers came in one night and in front of customers asked them all to show their passports. One who washed up for a couple of hours on Saturday nights was Algerian. He was taken away and my Italian chum was fined £15,000.

    He's now out of business.
    I assume the bit you are glossing over here is that possibly your friend was employing an illegal immigrant without the appropriate paperwork ?

    https://www.gov.uk/check-job-applicant-right-to-work
    Home office enforce the law shocker
    I wasn't glossing over it. He was an academic who decided to try his hand at running a small cafe. He inherited the staff and did everything correctly incuding paying his staff well over the minimum wage. He had missed the washer upper because he was part time and only worked occasional Saturdays and they all thought he was French. But there is no appeal and no one to speak to. It was Kafkaesque
    If it had read the rules of employment in this country, he would have seen that the employer is legally responsible for the status of all staff. All staff means any one he gives money to in return for work.

    These rules have been around a long, long time. All through the (New) Labour years, by the way.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    Roger said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    News (really just confirmation) that we're leaving the single market sinking in:

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2650479/brexit-will-come-as-a-massive-shock-to-the-eus-budget-brussels-think-tank-warns-as-it-reveals-there-is-no-easy-way-to-replace-britains-8-5bn-a-year-contributions/

    Carlotta'a been abducted by aliens. The real one would never link to the SUN
    Primary source: http://www.delorsinstitut.de/2015/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/BrexitEUBudget-HaasRubio-JDI-JDIB-Jan17.pdf
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,235
    Yay, England bowl first. Now if they can only get Kohli out for less than 150 its game on.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,933
    edited January 2017
    Roger said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    daodao said:

    When the economic pain materialises post Brexit (and the signs are now there with the announcements from HSBC & UBS), will the Tories be so popular? Corbyn talked far more sense at PMQ's yesterday.

    Why would voters be worried about some bankers moving from London ? HSBC has been closing branches and ditching 1000s of jobs for the last 10 years and nobody cared.

    JLR meanwhile is waiting for permission to build a new factory in Coventry which will create over 750 direct jobs and more in the supply chain. #realjobs

    http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/jaguar-land-rover-massive-coventry-12468157

    #realjobs
    Because it is the first rains before the flood. The SERVICE industries which provide 70% of the UK's wealth are going to leave.

    PS. Carlotta the SUN and now Alanbrooke the Coventry Telegraph. Things are certainly looking up post Brexit
    Rubbish. The supermarkets, the warehouses, the hotels and cafes, the hospitals etc where most people work are not leaving regardless so most people will not be that affected. Even in the City and Canary Wharf a majority of jobs will stay though Paris and Frankfurt will likely narrow the gap with London but then given London's pre eminence depended on free movement which stirred much resentment elsewhere in the country and the UK capital being in the top ten largest French cities it was not really sustainable in the long term anyway
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    Roger said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    Roger said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    Roger said:

    Why don't the Tories and UKIP amalgamate? There isn't a fag paper between them since TM took over.

    And think of the spin offs... UKIP to be led by a woman and The Tories to have a deputy from Bootle.

    Strange that people said the same about the Tories and the LDs between 2010-2015 with Cameron/Clegg both being basically orange book LDs.

    But you're hyperventilating is noted. There is masses of difference between the two, Tezzie is a rather unexciting solid middle of the road Tory. Just because you dont approve of her giving the voters the only option realistically on the table that matches a Leave vote, it doesnt make her a kipper.
    Her time at the Home office makes her a kipper. An Italian friend of mine who bought a small cafe with a staff of five had a visit from her storm troopers two months after opening. Eight officers came in one night and in front of customers asked them all to show their passports. One who washed up for a couple of hours on Saturday nights was Algerian. He was taken away and my Italian chum was fined £15,000.

    He's now out of business.
    I assume the bit you are glossing over here is that possibly your friend was employing an illegal immigrant without the appropriate paperwork ?

    https://www.gov.uk/check-job-applicant-right-to-work
    Home office enforce the law shocker
    I wasn't glossing over it. He was an academic who decided to try his hand at running a small cafe. He inherited the staff and did everything correctly incuding paying his staff well over the minimum wage. He had missed the washer upper because he was part time and only worked occasional Saturdays and they all thought he was French. But there is no appeal and no one to speak to. It was Kafkaesque
    Ah it becomes clearer - Luvvy tries his hand at business and gets burned by the authorities for trying to boost his profits by illegally exploiting migrant worker. Nice. BTW if it really was Kafkaesque he'd not be alive to tell the tale. Next time try posting after your Provencal cappuchino!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,151
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    felix said:

    Roger said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    daodao said:

    When the economic pain materialises post Brexit (and the signs are now there with the announcements from HSBC & UBS), will the Tories be so popular? Corbyn talked far more sense at PMQ's yesterday.

    Why would voters be worried about some bankers moving from London ? HSBC has been closing branches and ditching 1000s of jobs for the last 10 years and nobody cared.

    JLR meanwhile is waiting for permission to build a new factory in Coventry which will create over 750 direct jobs and more in the supply chain. #realjobs

    http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/jaguar-land-rover-massive-coventry-12468157

    #realjobs
    Because it is the first rains before the flood. The SERVICE industries which provide 70% of the UK's wealth are going to leave.

    PS. Carlotta the SUN and now Alanbrooke the Coventry Telegraph. Things are certainly looking up post Brexit
    Ahh - flood first followed by fire , plague and pestilence no doubt. Has this strategy ever been tried before we wonder....
    It persuaded Pharaoh to let the oppressed foreigners go :smiley:
    Unfortunately OFSTEAD inspectors are made of sterner stuff.
    People who allowed Nicky Morgan to bully them are stronger than a Pharaoh who held out until the death of the Firstborn?

    It's a point of view I suppose...
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,054
    edited January 2017
    DavidL said:

    Roger said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    daodao said:

    When the economic pain materialises post Brexit (and the signs are now there with the announcements from HSBC & UBS), will the Tories be so popular? Corbyn talked far more sense at PMQ's yesterday.

    Why would voters be worried about some bankers moving from London ? HSBC has been closing branches and ditching 1000s of jobs for the last 10 years and nobody cared.

    JLR meanwhile is waiting for permission to build a new factory in Coventry which will create over 750 direct jobs and more in the supply chain. #realjobs

    http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/jaguar-land-rover-massive-coventry-12468157

    #realjobs
    Because it is the first rains before the flood. The SERVICE industries which provide 70% of the UK's wealth are going to leave.
    You mean my barber is off to cut hair somewhere else? And I won't be able to get a Costa afterwards or, if I am feeling particularly guilty, go to my gym, or insure my car to get there? Services are a very wide range of commercial activities the vast majority of which are going precisely nowhere.

    This is true. The services that will be hit the hardest are the ones that contribute the most in corporate and income tax. They will at least partially move to Europe to stay in the single market, as will many other types of business. Jobs that would have been created in the UK will not be created, investments that would have been made will not be made and taxes that would have been paid to the UK exchequer will instead be paid elsewhere.

    Theresa May and the Conservatives have made the choice to go for a hard Brexit and are standing by as their cheerleaders in the right wing press wave the Union Jack and portray our departure from the EU as a rematch of World War 2. The message that is being sent to the rest of the world is one that will only damage our reputation as a country that is welcoming and open for business. But that is what nationalism does, I guess.

  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,298
    edited January 2017
    While some PBers work themselves up over a few banking fatcats who may or may not leave one overcrowded city and move to another, hundreds more normal people on normal wages in the banking sector face redundancy, and lots more people will lose access to their local branch:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-38669280

    Clearly this doesn't matter as it only impacts little people.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Fake news, or True news?
    https://twitter.com/English_Woman/status/821983010870411264
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,054
    HYUFD said:

    daodao said:

    When the economic pain materialises post Brexit (and the signs are now there with the announcements from HSBC & UBS), will the Tories be so popular? Corbyn talked far more sense at PMQ's yesterday.

    HSBC and UBS losing a minority of city workers to Paris and Frankfurt will make zero impact on Tory fortunes in northern and midlands marginals, even on the latest yougov most do expect some economic hit from Brexit but they voted for it to get border control

    Could not agree more. The impact will come when people realise they have been sold a pup. When they see that the Poles who live round the corner still live round the corner, when prices remain stubbornly high, wages have not gone up and public services keep on being cut. That will not be this year or next, but it will happen sooner than complacent, triumphalist right-wing Tories think.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,151
    edited January 2017
    SandyRentool said:

    While some PBers work themselves up over a few banking fatcats who may or may not leave one overcrowded city and move to another, hundreds more normal people on normal wages in the banking sector face redundancy, and lots more people will lose access to their local branch:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-38669280

    Clearly this doesn't matter as it only impacts little people.

    This is of course a second reason why bankers moving abroad is not exactly going to garner massive public concern.

    Edit - thank you for the list too. May be selfish but I am glad to see Cannock's branch escapes the axe.
  • AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    SouthamObserver said:

    Theresa May and the Conservatives have made the choice to go for a hard Brexit and are standing by as their cheerleaders in the right wing press wave the Union Jack and portray our departure from the EU as a rematch of World War 2. The message that is being sent to the rest of the world is one that will only damage our reputation as a country that is welcoming and open for business. But that is what nationalism does, I guess.

    I am interested to hear what you feel her options were given a Leave vote, (short of deciding to ignore it I suppose). Everyone here has been saying Hard BrExit was the only realistic option for months, and yet you want us to believe its that Tezzie "chose".

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,235
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    felix said:

    Roger said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    daodao said:

    When the economic pain materialises post Brexit (and the signs are now there with the announcements from HSBC & UBS), will the Tories be so popular? Corbyn talked far more sense at PMQ's yesterday.

    Why would voters be worried about some bankers moving from London ? HSBC has been closing branches and ditching 1000s of jobs for the last 10 years and nobody cared.

    JLR meanwhile is waiting for permission to build a new factory in Coventry which will create over 750 direct jobs and more in the supply chain. #realjobs

    http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/jaguar-land-rover-massive-coventry-12468157

    #realjobs
    Because it is the first rains before the flood. The SERVICE industries which provide 70% of the UK's wealth are going to leave.

    PS. Carlotta the SUN and now Alanbrooke the Coventry Telegraph. Things are certainly looking up post Brexit
    Ahh - flood first followed by fire , plague and pestilence no doubt. Has this strategy ever been tried before we wonder....
    It persuaded Pharaoh to let the oppressed foreigners go :smiley:
    Unfortunately OFSTEAD inspectors are made of sterner stuff.
    People who allowed Nicky Morgan to bully them are stronger than a Pharaoh who held out until the death of the Firstborn?

    It's a point of view I suppose...
    Finding it hard to believe that Nicky Morgan achieved anything. But as a first born myself I take your point.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 56,600
    SandyRentool said:

    While some PBers work themselves up over a few banking fatcats who may or may not leave one overcrowded city and move to another, hundreds more normal people on normal wages in the banking sector face redundancy, and lots more people will lose access to their local branch:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-38669280

    Clearly this doesn't matter as it only impacts little people.

    Bank branches are slowly becoming extinct. The reasons are pretty simple - there are a number of banks/banking "facades" that are totally online already....

    I thought globalisation and the march of the internet were part of the wonderful future?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,844
    Roger said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    News (really just confirmation) that we're leaving the single market sinking in:

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2650479/brexit-will-come-as-a-massive-shock-to-the-eus-budget-brussels-think-tank-warns-as-it-reveals-there-is-no-easy-way-to-replace-britains-8-5bn-a-year-contributions/

    Carlotta'a been abducted by aliens. The real one would never link to the SUN
    Extreme right wing Tories will use any means whatsoever
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,577
    SouthamObserver said:

    DavidL said:

    Roger said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    daodao said:

    When the economic pain materialises post Brexit (and the signs are now there with the announcements from HSBC & UBS), will the Tories be so popular? Corbyn talked far more sense at PMQ's yesterday.

    Why would voters be worried about some bankers moving from London ? HSBC has been closing branches and ditching 1000s of jobs for the last 10 years and nobody cared.

    JLR meanwhile is waiting for permission to build a new factory in Coventry which will create over 750 direct jobs and more in the supply chain. #realjobs

    http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/jaguar-land-rover-massive-coventry-12468157

    #realjobs
    Because it is the first rains before the flood. The SERVICE industries which provide 70% of the UK's wealth are going to leave.
    You mean my barber is off to cut hair somewhere else? And I won't be able to get a Costa afterwards or, if I am feeling particularly guilty, go to my gym, or insure my car to get there? Services are a very wide range of commercial activities the vast majority of which are going precisely nowhere.

    This is true. The services that will be hit the hardest are the ones that contribute the most in corporate and income tax. They will at least partially move to Europe to stay in the single market, as will many other types of business. Jobs that would have been created in the UK will not be created, investments that would have been made will not be made and taxes that would have been paid to the UK exchequer will instead be paid elsewhere.

    Theresa May and the Conservatives have made the choice to go for a hard Brexit and are standing by as their cheerleaders in the right wing press wave the Union Jack and portray our departure from the EU as a rematch of World War 2. The message that is being sent to the rest of the world is one that will only damage our reputation as a country that is welcoming and open for business. But that is what nationalism does, I guess.

    Will those taxes paid elewhere amount to more or less than the magic £350 whatever it was?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,235
    SouthamObserver said:

    DavidL said:

    Roger said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    daodao said:

    When the economic pain materialises post Brexit (and the signs are now there with the announcements from HSBC & UBS), will the Tories be so popular? Corbyn talked far more sense at PMQ's yesterday.

    Why would voters be worried about some bankers moving from London ? HSBC has been closing branches and ditching 1000s of jobs for the last 10 years and nobody cared.

    JLR meanwhile is waiting for permission to build a new factory in Coventry which will create over 750 direct jobs and more in the supply chain. #realjobs

    http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/jaguar-land-rover-massive-coventry-12468157

    #realjobs
    Because it is the first rains before the flood. The SERVICE industries which provide 70% of the UK's wealth are going to leave.
    You mean my barber is off to cut hair somewhere else? And I won't be able to get a Costa afterwards or, if I am feeling particularly guilty, go to my gym, or insure my car to get there? Services are a very wide range of commercial activities the vast majority of which are going precisely nowhere.

    This is true. The services that will be hit the hardest are the ones that contribute the most in corporate and income tax. They will at least partially move to Europe to stay in the single market, as will many other types of business. Jobs that would have been created in the UK will not be created, investments that would have been made will not be made and taxes that would have been paid to the UK exchequer will instead be paid elsewhere.

    Theresa May and the Conservatives have made the choice to go for a hard Brexit and are standing by as their cheerleaders in the right wing press wave the Union Jack and portray our departure from the EU as a rematch of World War 2. The message that is being sent to the rest of the world is one that will only damage our reputation as a country that is welcoming and open for business. But that is what nationalism does, I guess.

    It would be stupid to say that there is not a risk but the vast majority of the business in London is already non-EU or domestic. There have been hints that the rEU are starting to become concerned about the adverse effect on their industry of being denied unrestricted access to London's expertise and deep liquidity. We shall see, there is plenty to play for.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 18,271
    edited January 2017
    FPT
    edmundintokyo said:


    I totally get the way the voters are responding now.[big % happy with no EU deal according to poll] What I'm not seeing is the government's strategy. I can't believe they're going to merrily just crash out of the EU without a deal however attractive that might sound to the voters now, but if they don't intend to do that they're going to need to prepare the voters for the deal they're going to end up taking.

    Good point, Edmund. In fact walking away is literally impossible. For example someone has to certify our aeroplanes are safe to fly. If we don't have an agreement, we won't be able to fly out of the UK. I can't envisage any scenario where that wouldn't be agreed. More importantly the EU will have to agree the UK's WTO schedules, which is a much more complex negotiation - in my view even more so than the Brexit one.

    The point is, a white Rhodesia style UDI isn't an option, even if the polled public say they approve of it. There will be an agreement and the Government will have to sell it to the voters.
    ,
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    AlsoIndigo said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    Theresa May and the Conservatives have made the choice to go for a hard Brexit and are standing by as their cheerleaders in the right wing press wave the Union Jack and portray our departure from the EU as a rematch of World War 2. The message that is being sent to the rest of the world is one that will only damage our reputation as a country that is welcoming and open for business. But that is what nationalism does, I guess.

    I am interested to hear what you feel her options were given a Leave vote, (short of deciding to ignore it I suppose). Everyone here has been saying Hard BrExit was the only realistic option for months, and yet you want us to believe its that Tezzie "chose".

    AlsoIndigo said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    Theresa May and the Conservatives have made the choice to go for a hard Brexit and are standing by as their cheerleaders in the right wing press wave the Union Jack and portray our departure from the EU as a rematch of World War 2. The message that is being sent to the rest of the world is one that will only damage our reputation as a country that is welcoming and open for business. But that is what nationalism does, I guess.

    I am interested to hear what you feel her options were given a Leave vote, (short of deciding to ignore it I suppose). Everyone here has been saying Hard BrExit was the only realistic option for months, and yet you want us to believe its that Tezzie "chose".

    Donald Tusk said it too. Is he a "right wing Tory in thrall of UKIP"?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,933
    Malmesbury said:

    SandyRentool said:

    While some PBers work themselves up over a few banking fatcats who may or may not leave one overcrowded city and move to another, hundreds more normal people on normal wages in the banking sector face redundancy, and lots more people will lose access to their local branch:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-38669280

    Clearly this doesn't matter as it only impacts little people.

    Bank branches are slowly becoming extinct. The reasons are pretty simple - there are a number of banks/banking "facades" that are totally online already....

    I thought globalisation and the march of the internet were part of the wonderful future?
    Personally I prefer my local branch and an accessible ATM
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    edited January 2017
    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/01/18/public-back-brexit-plan-think-eu-will-nix-it/

    Our initial polling, conducted on Tuesday night and Wednesday, suggests the announcement went down well. All of the key negotiating points we asked about met with majority support. Most were uncontroversial and supported by both Remain and Leave voters: control of immigration, an open border with Ireland, guaranteeing the rights of existing EU immigrants and continuing to work with the EU on security matters all received over 70% support.

    Theresa May has passed her first Brexit test: she has managed to define a form of Brexit that the majority of the country can get behind. Getting the rest of Europe to agree to those proposals may be a more difficult challenge.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,933
    SouthamObserver said:

    HYUFD said:

    daodao said:

    When the economic pain materialises post Brexit (and the signs are now there with the announcements from HSBC & UBS), will the Tories be so popular? Corbyn talked far more sense at PMQ's yesterday.

    HSBC and UBS losing a minority of city workers to Paris and Frankfurt will make zero impact on Tory fortunes in northern and midlands marginals, even on the latest yougov most do expect some economic hit from Brexit but they voted for it to get border control

    Could not agree more. The impact will come when people realise they have been sold a pup. When they see that the Poles who live round the corner still live round the corner, when prices remain stubbornly high, wages have not gone up and public services keep on being cut. That will not be this year or next, but it will happen sooner than complacent, triumphalist right-wing Tories think.

    The number of Poles coming will fall as free movement is controlled, wages are still going up, people will buy more British goods and austerity was happening regardless but May and Hammond have slowed the pace Osborne set and spaced it out
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,054
    AlsoIndigo said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    Theresa May and the Conservatives have made the choice to go for a hard Brexit and are standing by as their cheerleaders in the right wing press wave the Union Jack and portray our departure from the EU as a rematch of World War 2. The message that is being sent to the rest of the world is one that will only damage our reputation as a country that is welcoming and open for business. But that is what nationalism does, I guess.

    I am interested to hear what you feel her options were given a Leave vote, (short of deciding to ignore it I suppose). Everyone here has been saying Hard BrExit was the only realistic option for months, and yet you want us to believe its that Tezzie "chose".

    She had plenty of choices and still does. One would have been to say that we voted to leave the European Union, but not the single market and that our goal is to stay in it, subject to being able to agree limits on immigration. She also has a choice on how she reacts to her ministers likening European leaders to WW2 prison guards. She could have thought how such comments would be perceived not only among the countries with which we now have to negotiate Brexit, but also in the wider world, or she could have decided to pander tot he xenophobic right wing English press. She chose the latter option.

  • prh47bridgeprh47bridge Posts: 480
    Roger said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    Roger said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    Roger said:

    Why don't the Tories and UKIP amalgamate? There isn't a fag paper between them since TM took over.

    And think of the spin offs... UKIP to be led by a woman and The Tories to have a deputy from Bootle.

    Strange that people said the same about the Tories and the LDs between 2010-2015 with Cameron/Clegg both being basically orange book LDs.

    But you're hyperventilating is noted. There is masses of difference between the two, Tezzie is a rather unexciting solid middle of the road Tory. Just because you dont approve of her giving the voters the only option realistically on the table that matches a Leave vote, it doesnt make her a kipper.
    Her time at the Home office makes her a kipper. An Italian friend of mine who bought a small cafe with a staff of five had a visit from her storm troopers two months after opening. Eight officers came in one night and in front of customers asked them all to show their passports. One who washed up for a couple of hours on Saturday nights was Algerian. He was taken away and my Italian chum was fined £15,000.

    He's now out of business.
    I assume the bit you are glossing over here is that possibly your friend was employing an illegal immigrant without the appropriate paperwork ?

    https://www.gov.uk/check-job-applicant-right-to-work
    Home office enforce the law shocker
    I wasn't glossing over it. He was an academic who decided to try his hand at running a small cafe. He inherited the staff and did everything correctly incuding paying his staff well over the minimum wage. He had missed the washer upper because he was part time and only worked occasional Saturdays and they all thought he was French. But there is no appeal and no one to speak to. It was Kafkaesque
    So is Charles Clarke a Kipper? After all, he introduced the law (Immigration, Asylum and Nationality Act 2006) that your friend broke.

    There is an appeal. The employer can send a notice of objection to the Secretary of State and/or appeal to the courts. However, the grounds for appeal are limited. The employer can argue that they are not liable to the penalty, that they are excused because they have complied with the requirements for checking eligibility to work in the UK or that the amount of the penalty is too high.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,933
    SouthamObserver said:

    DavidL said:

    Roger said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    daodao said:

    When the economic pain materialises post Brexit (and the signs are now there with the announcements from HSBC & UBS), will the Tories be so popular? Corbyn talked far more sense at PMQ's yesterday.

    Why would voters be worried about some bankers moving from London ? HSBC has been closing branches and ditching 1000s of jobs for the last 10 years and nobody cared.

    JLR meanwhile is waiting for permission to build a new factory in Coventry which will create over 750 direct jobs and more in the supply chain. #realjobs

    http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/jaguar-land-rover-massive-coventry-12468157

    #realjobs
    Because it is the first rains before the flood. The SERVICE industries which provide 70% of the UK's wealth are going to leave.
    You mean my barber is off to cut hair somewhere else? And I won't be able to get a Costa afterwards or, if I am feeling particularly guilty, go to my gym, or insure my car to get there? Services are a very wide range of commercial activities the vast majority of which are going precisely nowhere.

    This is true. The services that will be hit the hardest are the ones that contribute the most in corporate and income tax. They will at least partially move to Europe to stay in the single market, as will many other types of business. Jobs that would have been created in the UK will not be created, investments that would have been made will not be made and taxes that would have been paid to the UK exchequer will instead be paid elsewhere.

    Theresa May and the Conservatives have made the choice to go for a hard Brexit and are standing by as their cheerleaders in the right wing press wave the Union Jack and portray our departure from the EU as a rematch of World War 2. The message that is being sent to the rest of the world is one that will only damage our reputation as a country that is welcoming and open for business. But that is what nationalism does, I guess.

    Nationalism is on the rise from the US to India to the Netherlands and France, it is not just the UK
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    Morning all. I shall refrain from copy/pasting the latest Yougov polling on May's speech, but they're quite interesting, and surprisingly realistic. Few voters (irrespective of their EUref vote) think the EU will agree a deal, i.e. 20% overall, but only 27% of Leave voters.

    The economic impact is the #4 priority for Leave voters, #1 for Remain voters. The speech itself has gone down pretty well.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,054
    DavidL said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    DavidL said:

    Roger said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    daodao said:

    When the economic pain materialises post Brexit (and the signs are now there with the announcements from HSBC & UBS), will the Tories be so popular? Corbyn talked far more sense at PMQ's yesterday.

    Why would voters be worried about some bankers moving from London ? HSBC has been closing branches and ditching 1000s of jobs for the last 10 years and nobody cared.

    JLR meanwhile is waiting for permission to build a new factory in Coventry which will create over 750 direct jobs and more in the supply chain. #realjobs

    http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/jaguar-land-rover-massive-coventry-12468157

    #realjobs
    Because it is the first rains before the flood. The SERVICE industries which provide 70% of the UK's wealth are going to leave.
    You mean my barber is off to cut hair somewhere else? And I won't be able to get a Costa afterwards or, if I am feeling particularly guilty, go to my gym, or insure my car to get there? Services are a very wide range of commercial activities the vast majority of which are going precisely nowhere.

    This will not be made and taxes that would have been paid to the UK exchequer will instead be paid elsewhere.

    Theresa , I guess.

    It would be stupid to say that there is not a risk but the vast majority of the business in London is already non-EU or domestic. There have been hints that the rEU are starting to become concerned about the adverse effect on their industry of being denied unrestricted access to London's expertise and deep liquidity. We shall see, there is plenty to play for.

    It's not just London and it's not just finance. I get that 93% of the business done in the UK does not involve the single market, but what I also know is that those that do serious business in the single market are most likely to be big employers, big investors and payers of large corporation tax bills.

    Why would the UK government want to further restrict access to London beyond the restrictions that leaving the single market imposes on us. How much self-harm are we prepared to go through and when will the extent of it be set before voters?
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,325
    Labour hit 25% in poll. Hate to think what an unsuccessful Corbyn relaunch looks like.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,933
    SouthamObserver said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    Theresa May and the Conservatives have made the choice to go for a hard Brexit and are standing by as their cheerleaders in the right wing press wave the Union Jack and portray our departure from the EU as a rematch of World War 2. The message that is being sent to the rest of the world is one that will only damage our reputation as a country that is welcoming and open for business. But that is what nationalism does, I guess.

    I am interested to hear what you feel her options were given a Leave vote, (short of deciding to ignore it I suppose). Everyone here has been saying Hard BrExit was the only realistic option for months, and yet you want us to believe its that Tezzie "chose".

    She had plenty of choices and still does. One would have been to say that we voted to leave the European Union, but not the single market and that our goal is to stay in it, subject to being able to agree limits on immigration. She also has a choice on how she reacts to her ministers likening European leaders to WW2 prison guards. She could have thought how such comments would be perceived not only among the countries with which we now have to negotiate Brexit, but also in the wider world, or she could have decided to pander tot he xenophobic right wing English press. She chose the latter option.

    There was no realistic option of controlling immigration and staying in the single market and given the Leave vote we had to Leave. I still doubt it will be the full, hard Brexit UKIP want i.e. a points system for migrants and no more budget contributions to the EU at all but soft Brexit was a non starter
  • AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    OldKingCole said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    DavidL said:

    Roger said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    daodao said:

    When the economic pain materialises post Brexit (and the signs are now there with the announcements from HSBC & UBS), will the Tories be so popular? Corbyn talked far more sense at PMQ's yesterday.

    Why would voters be worried about some bankers moving from London ? HSBC has been closing branches and ditching 1000s of jobs for the last 10 years and nobody cared.

    JLR meanwhile is waiting for permission to build a new factory in Coventry which will create over 750 direct jobs and more in the supply chain. #realjobs

    http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/jaguar-land-rover-massive-coventry-12468157

    #realjobs
    Because it is the first rains before the flood. The SERVICE industries which provide 70% of the UK's wealth are going to leave.
    You mean my barber is off to cut hair somewhere else? And I won't be able to get a Costa afterwards or, if I am feeling particularly guilty, go to my gym, or insure my car to get there? Services are a very wide range of commercial activities the vast majority of which are going precisely nowhere.

    This is true. The services that will be hit the hardest are the ones that contribute the most in corporate and income tax. They will at least partially move to Europe to stay in the single market, as will many other types of business. Jobs that would have been created in the UK will not be created, investments that would have been made will not be made and taxes that would have been paid to the UK exchequer will instead be paid elsewhere.

    Theresa May and the Conservatives have made the choice to go for a hard Brexit and are standing by as their cheerleaders in the right wing press wave the Union Jack and portray our departure from the EU as a rematch of World War 2. The message that is being sent to the rest of the world is one that will only damage our reputation as a country that is welcoming and open for business. But that is what nationalism does, I guess.

    Will those taxes paid elewhere amount to more or less than the magic £350 whatever it was?
    and outside of political activists and their cronies and sad acts like us, will anyone actually care by 2020. Will they instead mark it down as one political lie amongst many in this campaign and others, and instead concentrate on their life and their community as it is at that time. (If the tit in a beard is still LotO they might not even consider that deeply)
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    SouthamObserver said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    Theresa May and the Conservatives have made the choice to go for a hard Brexit and are standing by as their cheerleaders in the right wing press wave the Union Jack and portray our departure from the EU as a rematch of World War 2. The message that is being sent to the rest of the world is one that will only damage our reputation as a country that is welcoming and open for business. But that is what nationalism does, I guess.

    I am interested to hear what you feel her options were given a Leave vote, (short of deciding to ignore it I suppose). Everyone here has been saying Hard BrExit was the only realistic option for months, and yet you want us to believe its that Tezzie "chose".

    She had plenty of choices and still does. One would have been to say that we voted to leave the European Union, but not the single market and that our goal is to stay in it, subject to being able to agree limits on immigration. She also has a choice on how she reacts to her ministers likening European leaders to WW2 prison guards. She could have thought how such comments would be perceived not only among the countries with which we now have to negotiate Brexit, but also in the wider world, or she could have decided to pander tot he xenophobic right wing English press. She chose the latter option.

    Morrning Southam.. have you ever had a good word for Mrs May since she became PM?.
  • AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    SouthamObserver said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    Theresa May and the Conservatives have made the choice to go for a hard Brexit and are standing by as their cheerleaders in the right wing press wave the Union Jack and portray our departure from the EU as a rematch of World War 2. The message that is being sent to the rest of the world is one that will only damage our reputation as a country that is welcoming and open for business. But that is what nationalism does, I guess.

    I am interested to hear what you feel her options were given a Leave vote, (short of deciding to ignore it I suppose). Everyone here has been saying Hard BrExit was the only realistic option for months, and yet you want us to believe its that Tezzie "chose".

    She had plenty of choices and still does. One would have been to say that we voted to leave the European Union, but not the single market and that our goal is to stay in it, subject to being able to agree limits on immigration.
    How precisely when the public (and presumably private) message from the EU has been implacably that the four freedoms are not up for negotiation if we want to stay in the single market. We therefore will not be able to agree limits on immigration and stay in the single market.

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,865
    Good morning, everyone.

    Breaking: avalanche hits Italy.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38674788
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    MikeK said:

    Fake news, or True news?
    ttps://twitter.com/English_Woman/status/821983010870411264

    I continue to be disappointed by insults thrown by those who constantly assert their moral superiority. Lefties on Twitter are very prone to it. Perhaps HnH should apply it to themselves first.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    edited January 2017
    AlsoIndigo said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    Theresa May and the Conservatives have made the choice to go for a hard Brexit and are standing by as their cheerleaders in the right wing press wave the Union Jack and portray our departure from the EU as a rematch of World War 2. The message that is being sent to the rest of the world is one that will only damage our reputation as a country that is welcoming and open for business. But that is what nationalism does, I guess.

    I am interested to hear what you feel her options were given a Leave vote, (short of deciding to ignore it I suppose). Everyone here has been saying Hard BrExit was the only realistic option for months, and yet you want us to believe its that Tezzie "chose".

    She had plenty of choices and still does. One would have been to say that we voted to leave the European Union, but not the single market and that our goal is to stay in it, subject to being able to agree limits on immigration.
    How precisely when the public (and presumably private) message from the EU has been implacably that the four freedoms are not up for negotiation if we want to stay in the single market. We therefore will not be able to agree limits on immigration and stay in the single market.

    Yes, as many Europeans have pointed out, the four freedoms are an invariant, and a prerequisite for membership. It's still puzzling me that people are calling for us to remain a member - it would be the ultimate cherry to pick, but it's not in our gift. May is making the best of a bad job.

    As I said on the day, she laid out a decent negotiating position, as there's nothing in her speech that Barnier et al can point to and say 'non'.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,054
    AlsoIndigo said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    Theresa May and the Conservatives have made the choice to go for a hard Brexit and are standing by as their cheerleaders in the right wing press wave the Union Jack and portray our departure from the EU as a rematch of World War 2. The message that is being sent to the rest of the world is one that will only damage our reputation as a country that is welcoming and open for business. But that is what nationalism does, I guess.

    I am interested to hear what you feel her options were given a Leave vote, (short of deciding to ignore it I suppose). Everyone here has been saying Hard BrExit was the only realistic option for months, and yet you want us to believe its that Tezzie "chose".

    She had plenty of choices and still does. One would have been to say that we voted to leave the European Union, but not the single market and that our goal is to stay in it, subject to being able to agree limits on immigration.
    How precisely when the public (and presumably private) message from the EU has been implacably that the four freedoms are not up for negotiation if we want to stay in the single market. We therefore will not be able to agree limits on immigration and stay in the single market.

    You negotiate and if you cannot get a deal done you look again. You don't rule it out before you have even got round the table.

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,054
    SquareRoot said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    Theresa May and the Conservatives have made the choice to go for a hard Brexit and are standing by as their cheerleaders in the right wing press wave the Union Jack and portray our departure from the EU as a rematch of World War 2. The message that is being sent to the rest of the world is one that will only damage our reputation as a country that is welcoming and open for business. But that is what nationalism does, I guess.

    I am interested to hear what you feel her options were given a Leave vote, (short of deciding to ignore it I suppose). Everyone here has been saying Hard BrExit was the only realistic option for months, and yet you want us to believe its that Tezzie "chose".

    She had plenty of choices and still does. One would have been to say that we voted to leave the European Union, but not the single market and that our goal is to stay in it, subject to being able to agree limits on immigration. She also has a choice on how she reacts to her ministers likening European leaders to WW2 prison guards. She could have thought how such comments would be perceived not only among the countries with which we now have to negotiate Brexit, but also in the wider world, or she could have decided to pander tot he xenophobic right wing English press. She chose the latter option.

    Morrning Southam.. have you ever had a good word for Mrs May since she became PM?.

    She is the best choice the Tories could have made.

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,054
    HYUFD said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    DavidL said:

    Roger said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    daodao said:

    When the economic pain materialises post Brexit (and the signs are now there with the announcements from HSBC & UBS), will the Tories be so popular? Corbyn talked far more sense at PMQ's yesterday.

    Why would voters be worried about some bankers moving from London ? HSBC has been closing branches and ditching 1000s of jobs for the last 10 years and nobody cared.

    JLR meanwhile is waiting for permission to build a new factory in Coventry which will create over 750 direct jobs and more in the supply chain. #realjobs

    http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/jaguar-land-rover-massive-coventry-12468157

    #realjobs
    Because it is the first rains before the flood. The SERVICE industries which provide 70% of the UK's wealth are going to leave.
    You mean my barber is off to cut hair somewhere else? And I won't be able to get a Costa afterwards or, if I am feeling particularly guilty, go to my gym, or insure my car to get there? Services are a very wide range of commercial activities the vast majority of which are going precisely nowhere.

    This is true. The services that will be hit the hardest are the ones that contribute the most in corporate and income tax. They will at least partially move to Europe to stay in the single market, as will many other types of business. Jobs that would have been created in the UK will not be created, investments that would have been made will not be made and taxes that would have been paid to the UK exchequer will instead be paid elsewhere.

    Theresa May and the Conservatives have made the choice to go for a hard Brexit and are standing by as their cheerleaders in the right wing press wave the Union Jack and portray our departure from the EU as a rematch of World War 2. The message that is being sent to the rest of the world is one that will only damage our reputation as a country that is welcoming and open for business. But that is what nationalism does, I guess.

    Nationalism is on the rise from the US to India to the Netherlands and France, it is not just the UK

    Ah, that's OK then.

  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    Roger said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    Roger said:

    Why don't the Tories and UKIP amalgamate? There isn't a fag paper between them since TM took over.

    And think of the spin offs... UKIP to be led by a woman and The Tories to have a deputy from Bootle.

    Strange that people said the same about the Tories and the LDs between 2010-2015 with Cameron/Clegg both being basically orange book LDs.

    But you're hyperventilating is noted. There is masses of difference between the two, Tezzie is a rather unexciting solid middle of the road Tory. Just because you dont approve of her giving the voters the only option realistically on the table that matches a Leave vote, it doesnt make her a kipper.
    Her time at the Home office makes her a kipper. An Italian friend of mine who bought a small cafe with a staff of five had a visit from her storm troopers two months after opening. Eight officers came in one night and in front of customers asked them all to show their passports. One who washed up for a couple of hours on Saturday nights was Algerian. He was taken away and my Italian chum was fined £15,000.

    He's now out of business.
    To be clear, your friend was breaking the law. But only a little bit, so that's acceptable.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    SouthamObserver said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    Theresa May and the Conservatives have made the choice to go for a hard Brexit and are standing by as their cheerleaders in the right wing press wave the Union Jack and portray our departure from the EU as a rematch of World War 2. The message that is being sent to the rest of the world is one that will only damage our reputation as a country that is welcoming and open for business. But that is what nationalism does, I guess.

    I am interested to hear what you feel her options were given a Leave vote, (short of deciding to ignore it I suppose). Everyone here has been saying Hard BrExit was the only realistic option for months, and yet you want us to believe its that Tezzie "chose".

    She had plenty of choices and still does. One would have been to say that we voted to leave the European Union, but not the single market and that our goal is to stay in it, subject to being able to agree limits on immigration.
    How precisely when the public (and presumably private) message from the EU has been implacably that the four freedoms are not up for negotiation if we want to stay in the single market. We therefore will not be able to agree limits on immigration and stay in the single market.

    You negotiate and if you cannot get a deal done you look again. You don't rule it out before you have even got round the table.

    May didn't rule it out. Merkel ruled it out.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,730
    edited January 2017
    Morris_Dancer said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Breaking: avalanche hits Italy.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38674788

    That area on the Marche/Abruzzo/Umbria border has had a truly terrible few years
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited January 2017
    Black_Rook said:

    The Spectator on the Government's carrot-and-stick approach to the EU:

    "Perhaps the most useful thing that the May government has learned in the last six month is what other EU countries fear. Since the referendum, parliaments all over Europe have been setting up committees to cover the negotiations. On their visits to London, the assurance they have most frequently sought from British ministers and officials has been that this country won’t turn itself into Singapore West, slashing taxes and regulation to attract business. This is why both Philip Hammond and May herself have made clear that this is indeed how the UK will respond if there is no reasonable offer from the EU."

    http://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/theresa-may-has-taken-control-this-is-a-brexit-plan-the-eu-cant-stop/

    Well quite. Cameron played the doormat and got virtually nothing. Theresa May can hardly get less than nothing if the EU goes all stampy feet. Also, it's another nail in the coffin of the 'Theresa Maybe' canard. The Government wasn't just making up lost time for all the preparations that Cameron forbade, it was also talking to EU27 delegations and gathering information about their positions. Very sensible.

    Witb our budget deficit worse than any EU country bar Spain, a game of beggar thy neighbour over corporate and higher rate taxation is likely to be won by the Germans.

    Worth noting that Singapore is also a country open to immigrants.
  • AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    SouthamObserver said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    Theresa May and the Conservatives have made the choice to go for a hard Brexit and are standing by as their cheerleaders in the right wing press wave the Union Jack and portray our departure from the EU as a rematch of World War 2. The message that is being sent to the rest of the world is one that will only damage our reputation as a country that is welcoming and open for business. But that is what nationalism does, I guess.

    I am interested to hear what you feel her options were given a Leave vote, (short of deciding to ignore it I suppose). Everyone here has been saying Hard BrExit was the only realistic option for months, and yet you want us to believe its that Tezzie "chose".

    She had plenty of choices and still does. One would have been to say that we voted to leave the European Union, but not the single market and that our goal is to stay in it, subject to being able to agree limits on immigration.
    How precisely when the public (and presumably private) message from the EU has been implacably that the four freedoms are not up for negotiation if we want to stay in the single market. We therefore will not be able to agree limits on immigration and stay in the single market.

    You negotiate and if you cannot get a deal done you look again. You don't rule it out before you have even got round the table.

    Of course they are unofficially around the table and have been for months, all sorts of lower level contacts have been made and views exchanged. I am quite sure the government knows exactly what the red lines are and what the box the agreement has to fit inside looks like. It will be that information that has lend them to the recent announcements I am sure.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,933
    SouthamObserver said:

    HYUFD said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    DavidL said:

    Roger said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    daodao said:

    When the economic pain materialises post Brexit (and the signs are now there with the announcements from HSBC & UBS), will the Tories be so popular? Corbyn talked far more sense at PMQ's yesterday.

    Why would voters be worried about some bankers moving from London ? HSBC has been closing branches and ditching 1000s of jobs for the last 10 years and nobody cared.

    JLR meanwhile is waiting for permission to build a new factory in Coventry which will create over 750 direct jobs and more in the supply chain. #realjobs

    http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/jaguar-land-rover-massive-coventry-12468157

    #realjobs
    Because it is the first rains before the flood. The SERVICE industries which provide 70% of the UK's wealth are going to leave.
    You mean my barber is off to cut hair somewhere else? And I won't be able to get a Costa afterwards or, if I am feeling particularly guilty, go to my gym, or insure my car to get there? Services are a very wide range of commercial activities the vast majority of which are going precisely nowhere.

    This is true. The services that will be hit the hardest are the ones that contribute the most in corporate and income tax. They will at least partially move to Europe to stay in the single market, as will many other types of business. Jobs that would have been created in the UK will not be created, investments that would have been made will not be made and taxes that would have been paid to the UK exchequer will instead be paid elsewhere.

    Theresa May and the Conservatives have made the choice to go for a hard Brexit and are standing by as their cheerleaders in the right wing press wave the Union Jack and portray our departure from the EU as a rematch of World War 2. The message that is being sent to the rest of the world is one that will only damage our reputation as a country that is welcoming and open for business. But that is what nationalism does, I guess.

    Nationalism is on the rise from the US to India to the Netherlands and France, it is not just the UK

    Ah, that's OK then.

    It reflects an increasing resentment at high levels of immigration and increasingly prosperous urban centres on the part of the rest of the country
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,889
    SquareRoot said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    Theresa May and the Conservatives have made the choice to go for a hard Brexit and are standing by as their cheerleaders in the right wing press wave the Union Jack and portray our departure from the EU as a rematch of World War 2. The message that is being sent to the rest of the world is one that will only damage our reputation as a country that is welcoming and open for business. But that is what nationalism does, I guess.

    I am interested to hear what you feel her options were given a Leave vote, (short of deciding to ignore it I suppose). Everyone here has been saying Hard BrExit was the only realistic option for months, and yet you want us to believe its that Tezzie "chose".

    She had plenty of choices and still does. One would have been to say that we voted to leave the European Union, but not the single market and that our goal is to stay in it, subject to being able to agree limits on immigration. She also has a choice on how she reacts to her ministers likening European leaders to WW2 prison guards. She could have thought how such comments would be perceived not only among the countries with which we now have to negotiate Brexit, but also in the wider world, or she could have decided to pander tot he xenophobic right wing English press. She chose the latter option.

    Morrning Southam.. have you ever had a good word for Mrs May since she became PM?.
    Have you ever managed a critical word?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,942
    prh47bridge said:

    Roger said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    Roger said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    Roger said:

    Why don't the Tories and UKIP amalgamate? There isn't a fag paper between them since TM took over.

    And think of the spin offs... UKIP to be led by a woman and The Tories to have a deputy from Bootle.

    Strange that people said the same about the Tories and the LDs between 2010-2015 with Cameron/Clegg both being basically orange book LDs.

    But you're hyperventilating is noted. There is masses of difference between the two, Tezzie is a rather unexciting solid middle of the road Tory. Just because you dont approve of her giving the voters the only option realistically on the table that matches a Leave vote, it doesnt make her a kipper.
    Her time at the Home office makes her a kipper. An Italian friend of mine who bought a small cafe with a staff of five had a visit from her storm troopers two months after opening. Eight officers came in one night and in front of customers asked them all to show their passports. One who washed up for a couple of hours on Saturday nights was Algerian. He was taken away and my Italian chum was fined £15,000.

    He's now out of business.
    I assume the bit you are glossing over here is that possibly your friend was employing an illegal immigrant without the appropriate paperwork ?

    https://www.gov.uk/check-job-applicant-right-to-work
    Home office enforce the law shocker
    I wasn't glossing over it. He was an academic who decided to try his hand at running a small cafe. He inherited the staff and did everything correctly incuding paying his staff well over the minimum wage. He had missed the washer upper because he was part time and only worked occasional Saturdays and they all thought he was French. But there is no appeal and no one to speak to. It was Kafkaesque
    So is Charles Clarke a Kipper? After all, he introduced the law (Immigration, Asylum and Nationality Act 2006) that your friend broke.

    There is an appeal. The employer can send a notice of objection to the Secretary of State and/or appeal to the courts. However, the grounds for appeal are limited. The employer can argue that they are not liable to the penalty, that they are excused because they have complied with the requirements for checking eligibility to work in the UK or that the amount of the penalty is too high.
    Thanks for that but in fact it's akin to a fixed penalty notice for speeding. The grounds for appeal are virtually non existant and there isn't a box for extenuating circumstances. What's particularly unfair is that the £15,000 fine is the same whether you are a small cafe where £15,000 is the difference between profit and loss and the Savoy Grill.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,298
    foxinsoxuk said:

    Black_Rook said:

    The Spectator on the Government's carrot-and-stick approach to the EU:

    "Perhaps the most useful thing that the May government has learned in the last six month is what other EU countries fear. Since the referendum, parliaments all over Europe have been setting up committees to cover the negotiations. On their visits to London, the assurance they have most frequently sought from British ministers and officials has been that this country won’t turn itself into Singapore West, slashing taxes and regulation to attract business. This is why both Philip Hammond and May herself have made clear that this is indeed how the UK will respond if there is no reasonable offer from the EU."

    http://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/theresa-may-has-taken-control-this-is-a-brexit-plan-the-eu-cant-stop/

    Well quite. Cameron played the doormat and got virtually nothing. Theresa May can hardly get less than nothing if the EU goes all stampy feet. Also, it's another nail in the coffin of the 'Theresa Maybe' canard. The Government wasn't just making up lost time for all the preparations that Cameron forbade, it was also talking to EU27 delegations and gathering information about their positions. Very sensible.

    Witb our budget deficit worse than any EU country bar Spain, a game of beggar thy neighbour over corporate and higher rate taxation is likely to be won by the Germans.

    Worth noting that Singapore is also a country open to immigrants.
    If we are going to copy Singapore, can we start by banning chewing gum?
  • AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    edited January 2017
    SouthamObserver said:

    SquareRoot said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    Theresa May and the Conservatives have made the choice to go for a hard Brexit and are standing by as their cheerleaders in the right wing press wave the Union Jack and portray our departure from the EU as a rematch of World War 2. The message that is being sent to the rest of the world is one that will only damage our reputation as a country that is welcoming and open for business. But that is what nationalism does, I guess.

    I am interested to hear what you feel her options were given a Leave vote, (short of deciding to ignore it I suppose). Everyone here has been saying Hard BrExit was the only realistic option for months, and yet you want us to believe its that Tezzie "chose".

    She had plenty of choices and still does. One would have been to say that we voted to leave the European Union, but not the single market and that our goal is to stay in it, subject to being able to agree limits on immigration. She also has a choice on how she reacts to her ministers likening European leaders to WW2 prison guards. She could have thought how such comments would be perceived not only among the countries with which we now have to negotiate Brexit, but also in the wider world, or she could have decided to pander tot he xenophobic right wing English press. She chose the latter option.

    Morrning Southam.. have you ever had a good word for Mrs May since she became PM?.

    She is the best choice the Tories could have made.

    Nationalism is invariably an reaction to the existing political environment, possibly something the liberal political consensus might like to reflect up. If you ignore the proles for long enough sooner or later they are going to bite you at the ballot box.
  • AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    edited January 2017
    duplicate.
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    SouthamObserver said:

    HYUFD said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    DavidL said:

    Roger said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    daodao said:

    When the economic pain materialises post Brexit (and the signs are now there with the announcements from HSBC & UBS), will the Tories be so popular? Corbyn talked far more sense at PMQ's yesterday.

    Why would voters be worried about some bankers moving from London ? HSBC has been closing branches and ditching 1000s of jobs for the last 10 years and nobody cared.

    JLR meanwhile is waiting for permission to build a new factory in Coventry which will create over 750 direct jobs and more in the supply chain. #realjobs

    http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/jaguar-land-rover-massive-coventry-12468157

    #realjobs
    Because it is the first rains before the flood. The SERVICE industries which provide 70% of the UK's wealth are going to leave.
    You mean my barber is off to cut hair somewhere else? And I won't be able to get a Costa afterwards or, if I am feeling particularly guilty, go to my gym, or insure my car to get there? Services are a very wide range of commercial activities the vast majority of which are going precisely nowhere.

    This is true. The services that will be hit the hardest are the ones that contribute the most in corporate and income tax. They will at least partially move to Europe to stay in the single market, as will many other types of business. Jobs that would have been created in the UK will not be created, investments that would have been made will not be made and taxes that would have been paid to the UK exchequer will instead be paid elsewhere.

    Theresa May and the Conservatives have made the choice to go for a hard Brexit and are standing by as their cheerleaders in the right wing press wave the Union Jack and portray our departure from the EU as a rematch of World War 2. The message that is being sent to the rest of the world is one that will only damage our reputation as a country that is welcoming and open for business. But that is what nationalism does, I guess.

    Nationalism is on the rise from the US to India to the Netherlands and France, it is not just the UK

    Ah, that's OK then.

    Ghandi and Mandela were nationalists. Do you have a problem with them ?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 67,573
    dr_spyn said:

    Labour hit 25% in poll. Hate to think what an unsuccessful Corbyn relaunch looks like.

    Well, if you wait a few months you'll surely find out. Relaunching was a Ed M speciality and he could pull polls in the 30% arena.
  • AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    edited January 2017
    foxinsoxuk said:

    Black_Rook said:

    The Spectator on the Government's carrot-and-stick approach to the EU:

    "Perhaps the most useful thing that the May government has learned in the last six month is what other EU countries fear. Since the referendum, parliaments all over Europe have been setting up committees to cover the negotiations. On their visits to London, the assurance they have most frequently sought from British ministers and officials has been that this country won’t turn itself into Singapore West, slashing taxes and regulation to attract business. This is why both Philip Hammond and May herself have made clear that this is indeed how the UK will respond if there is no reasonable offer from the EU."

    http://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/theresa-may-has-taken-control-this-is-a-brexit-plan-the-eu-cant-stop/

    Well quite. Cameron played the doormat and got virtually nothing. Theresa May can hardly get less than nothing if the EU goes all stampy feet. Also, it's another nail in the coffin of the 'Theresa Maybe' canard. The Government wasn't just making up lost time for all the preparations that Cameron forbade, it was also talking to EU27 delegations and gathering information about their positions. Very sensible.

    Witb our budget deficit worse than any EU country bar Spain, a game of beggar thy neighbour over corporate and higher rate taxation is likely to be won by the Germans.

    Worth noting that Singapore is also a country open to immigrants.
    Worth noting that so will the UK be. We will issue visas and work permits, just like Singapore does. We won't admit unskilled labour that doesnt have a job, just like Singapore does not.

    Try being an illegal immigrant in Singapore and see what happens, a fine for your employer will be the very least of your problems!
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,258
    Are people being wilfully obtuse?

    The HSBC exodus will, according to estimates, take 20% of their revenues offshore.

    That is billions of dollars (of revenues) and no doubt a billion here or there of taxes.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,819
    TOPPING said:

    Are people being wilfully obtuse?

    The HSBC exodus will, according to estimates, take 20% of their revenues offshore.

    That is billions of dollars (of revenues) and no doubt a billion here or there of taxes.

    Doesn't that depend where they book their profits?
  • AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    Gallowgate said:

    TOPPING said:

    Are people being wilfully obtuse?

    The HSBC exodus will, according to estimates, take 20% of their revenues offshore.

    That is billions of dollars (of revenues) and no doubt a billion here or there of taxes.

    Doesn't that depend where they book their profits?
    and who's estimate it is ;)
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,619
    DavidL said:

    Yay, England bowl first. Now if they can only get Kohli out for less than 150 its game on.

    Mission accomplished!!
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,298
    Farage bigging up Wilders, Le Pen.....and Piers Morgan!

    http://www.westmonster.com/farage-world-has-changed/

    BTW, if this new Banksian website is supposed to be providing thoughtful analysis, it looks to be totally lightweight from the couple of articles I have looked at so far.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 18,271
    SouthamObserver said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    Theresa May and the Conservatives have made the choice to go for a hard Brexit and are standing by as their cheerleaders in the right wing press wave the Union Jack and portray our departure from the EU as a rematch of World War 2. The message that is being sent to the rest of the world is one that will only damage our reputation as a country that is welcoming and open for business. But that is what nationalism does, I guess.

    I am interested to hear what you feel her options were given a Leave vote, (short of deciding to ignore it I suppose). Everyone here has been saying Hard BrExit was the only realistic option for months, and yet you want us to believe its that Tezzie "chose".

    She had plenty of choices and still does. One would have been to say that we voted to leave the European Union, but not the single market and that our goal is to stay in it, subject to being able to agree limits on immigration. She also has a choice on how she reacts to her ministers likening European leaders to WW2 prison guards. She could have thought how such comments would be perceived not only among the countries with which we now have to negotiate Brexit, but also in the wider world, or she could have decided to pander tot he xenophobic right wing English press. She chose the latter option.

    You're right of course. The point is, a consensus has to build around a particular approach at some point . Theresa May seems to have decided the UKIP line is the easiest one for her. At that level the speech was a success, although it may be unraveling a bit. The problem is the approach I'd based on some significant false assumptions. As a negotiating statement the speech was dire. Were in delivery mode now, not campaigning mode, and Theresa May risks the UK getting a settlement that is somewhat less crap.
  • weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    matt said:

    Roger said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    Roger said:

    Why don't the Tories and UKIP amalgamate? There isn't a fag paper between them since TM took over.

    And think of the spin offs... UKIP to be led by a woman and The Tories to have a deputy from Bootle.

    Strange that people said the same about the Tories and the LDs between 2010-2015 with Cameron/Clegg both being basically orange book LDs.

    But you're hyperventilating is noted. There is masses of difference between the two, Tezzie is a rather unexciting solid middle of the road Tory. Just because you dont approve of her giving the voters the only option realistically on the table that matches a Leave vote, it doesnt make her a kipper.
    Her time at the Home office makes her a kipper. An Italian friend of mine who bought a small cafe with a staff of five had a visit from her storm troopers two months after opening. Eight officers came in one night and in front of customers asked them all to show their passports. One who washed up for a couple of hours on Saturday nights was Algerian. He was taken away and my Italian chum was fined £15,000.

    He's now out of business.
    To be clear, your friend was breaking the law. But only a little bit, so that's acceptable.
    Which is why I only hire white Caucasian males who are fluent in English -not racism but self-survival for both me, mine and the staff who work for me.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,582
    Roger said:

    Thanks for that but in fact it's akin to a fixed penalty notice for speeding. The grounds for appeal are virtually non existant and there isn't a box for extenuating circumstances. What's particularly unfair is that the £15,000 fine is the same whether you are a small cafe where £15,000 is the difference between profit and loss and the Savoy Grill.

    The answer is simple, don't hire illegals.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 67,573
    foxinsoxuk said:

    Black_Rook said:

    The Spectator on the Government's carrot-and-stick approach to the EU:

    "Perhaps the most useful thing that the May government has learned in the last six month is what other EU countries fear. Since the referendum, parliaments all over Europe have been setting up committees to cover the negotiations. On their visits to London, the assurance they have most frequently sought from British ministers and officials has been that this country won’t turn itself into Singapore West, slashing taxes and regulation to attract business. This is why both Philip Hammond and May herself have made clear that this is indeed how the UK will respond if there is no reasonable offer from the EU."

    http://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/theresa-may-has-taken-control-this-is-a-brexit-plan-the-eu-cant-stop/

    Well quite. Cameron played the doormat and got virtually nothing. Theresa May can hardly get less than nothing if the EU goes all stampy feet. Also, it's another nail in the coffin of the 'Theresa Maybe' canard. The Government wasn't just making up lost time for all the preparations that Cameron forbade, it was also talking to EU27 delegations and gathering information about their positions. Very sensible.

    Witb our budget deficit worse than any EU country bar Spain, a game of beggar thy neighbour over corporate and higher rate taxation is likely to be won by the Germans.

    Worth noting that Singapore is also a country open to immigrants.
    I thought we were told by the May Queen on Tuesday that we would be incorporating all the EU regulations in a Great Reform Bill and there would be no backsliding on workers right etc. Now it seems she is planning to threaten other countries with precisely that.

    There is no way Redwood, Fox and co are not going to be pushing to slash 'red tape' the minute we leave.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,582
    foxinsoxuk said:

    Black_Rook said:

    The Spectator on the Government's carrot-and-stick approach to the EU:

    "Perhaps the most useful thing that the May government has learned in the last six month is what other EU countries fear. Since the referendum, parliaments all over Europe have been setting up committees to cover the negotiations. On their visits to London, the assurance they have most frequently sought from British ministers and officials has been that this country won’t turn itself into Singapore West, slashing taxes and regulation to attract business. This is why both Philip Hammond and May herself have made clear that this is indeed how the UK will respond if there is no reasonable offer from the EU."

    http://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/theresa-may-has-taken-control-this-is-a-brexit-plan-the-eu-cant-stop/

    Well quite. Cameron played the doormat and got virtually nothing. Theresa May can hardly get less than nothing if the EU goes all stampy feet. Also, it's another nail in the coffin of the 'Theresa Maybe' canard. The Government wasn't just making up lost time for all the preparations that Cameron forbade, it was also talking to EU27 delegations and gathering information about their positions. Very sensible.

    Witb our budget deficit worse than any EU country bar Spain, a game of beggar thy neighbour over corporate and higher rate taxation is likely to be won by the Germans.

    Worth noting that Singapore is also a country open to immigrants.
    Singapore is open to highly skilled migrants only and even then residency isn't automatic. Brexit isn't going to close the country to all migrants, just unskilled ones. The same as Singapore and loads of other countries who don't want to deal with some other country's unemployment problems.
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