politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Why I’ve backed Diane Abbott to be next Labour leader
Comments
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You make a fair case. But why should Abbot be in any different place to McDonnell? Her loss in 2020 also means she has to stand down - and would still discredit the Corbyn Project.kyf_100 said:I stuck the princely sum of £2 on Abbott last week at 129/1 after thinking about her path to power. My fevered imagination goes something like this:
It's 2019. Corbyn knows he's not going to win. He stands down, citing his age (also the fact his egotistical streak won't *let* him be remembered as the man who led Labour to it's worst ever defeat).
Who takes over? Unless something drastic changes between now and 2020, a Tory victory is a dead cert. McDonnell doesn't want it, because he knows he's so linked to the Corbyn project failure in 2020 will mean he has to stand down - and a McDonnell loss in 2020 would still discredit the Corbyn project.
Enter Abbott. Shadow home sec. Close to the Corbyn project. And the optics! Black, female, right on...
She will allow the Labour party to lose in 2020 while feeling good about itself.
The left can then tut at the country on twitter for "not being ready for it's first black female PM etc" without the need to disavow the hard left policies the Corbyn project stands for, allowing a more plausible candidate from the left to become leader after 2020 and fight a ropey and disunited dog-days-of-the-Major-years Tory party to become PM in 2025.
Abbott is the best candidate the left can put up in 2020 because it will allow them to lose without drifting back to the centre. For those reasons, she's still worth a punt.0 -
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Labour costs down and wagesDromedary said:
That is not the reason. A high level of immigration has been supported by all major political parties since the 1950s and 1960s for the simple reason that employers want it because it helps keep labour costs down. Blair and Brown would not have been so stupid as to believe that the immigrants would mostly eventually become Labour voters. I doubt they cared a hoot what Labour's voteshare would be 20 or more years after they left politics.David_Evershed said:Transition arrangements for immigrants were available to Blair/Brown but deliberately chose not to use them thinking the immigrants would eventually become British Labour voters.
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And to think the stick I got the other day when I ventured that McDonnell was electable.rottenborough said:
The thread header certainly made me laugh out loud. So utterly, inconceivably bonkers that the Labour party is probably going to go right ahead and do it.isam said:
Talking of 'polished performers'peter_from_putney said:"She’s a polished television performer"
When I read this, I just had to laugh out loud - since in my opinion she is anything but. For one thing, she is singularly inept at thinking on her feet, an absolute prerequisite for anyone with serious ambitions of achieving senior political office. This is exemplified by her trademark not to mention highly irritating and so transparent habit of looking skywards whilst blinking at a rate of knots whenever she is struggling for an answer to a question, which is often.
If TSE is really serious in suggesting such a fanciful proposition then, as a Tory, all I can say with gleeful hope is Yeah, bring it on!
https://youtu.be/zZ-r7iJZiBM0 -
Hmm. Interesting. I have stuck £2 on BF on Abbot based on this mornings debates. My aim is to be green on as many of the Labour party leading figures as possible given the huge uncertainty.kyf_100 said:I stuck the princely sum of £2 on Abbott last week at 129/1 after thinking about her path to power. My fevered imagination goes something like this:
It's 2019. Corbyn knows he's not going to win. He stands down, citing his age (also the fact his egotistical streak won't *let* him be remembered as the man who led Labour to it's worst ever defeat).
Who takes over? Unless something drastic changes between now and 2020, a Tory victory is a dead cert. McDonnell doesn't want it, because he knows he's so linked to the Corbyn project failure in 2020 will mean he has to stand down - and a McDonnell loss in 2020 would still discredit the Corbyn project.
Enter Abbott. Shadow home sec. Close to the Corbyn project. And the optics! Black, female, right on...
She will allow the Labour party to lose in 2020 while feeling good about itself.
The left can then tut at the country on twitter for "not being ready for it's first black female PM etc" without the need to disavow the hard left policies the Corbyn project stands for, allowing a more plausible candidate from the left to become leader after 2020 and fight a ropey and disunited dog-days-of-the-Major-years Tory party to become PM in 2025.
Abbott is the best candidate the left can put up in 2020 because it will allow them to lose without drifting back to the centre. For those reasons, she's still worth a punt.0 -
The 50’s and early 60’s reason for immigration was simply that there were more jobs than local workers. Consequently the ‘worse’ vacancies couldn’t be filled. That’s why, for example, Powell recruited West Indian nurses (etc.).HYUFD said:
Labour costs down and wagesDromedary said:
That is not the reason. A high level of immigration has been supported by all major political parties since the 1950s and 1960s for the simple reason that employers want it because it helps keep labour costs down. Blair and Brown would not have been so stupid as to believe that the immigrants would mostly eventually become Labour voters. I doubt they cared a hoot what Labour's voteshare would be 20 or more years after they left politics.David_Evershed said:Transition arrangements for immigrants were available to Blair/Brown but deliberately chose not to use them thinking the immigrants would eventually become British Labour voters.
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LOL, that beats sitting around in a boat all day!PlatoSaid said:This is rather awesome
Arrows Sniper https://t.co/U8Pv0tme830 -
FPT if we are at any point going to see peak SeanT, can someone please provide some advance warning so we can all get out of the way and avoid having to clear up the mess afterwards?0
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If I recall the Scottish play correctly, these two would not have appeared on stage at the same time. Probably a good idea.David_Evershed said:
Abott and Portillo went to the same comprehensive school at the same time.rottenborough said:
According to BBC website she once played Lady MacDuff alongside Michael Portillo as MacDuff (as in the Scottish play).MarqueeMark said:
That is spectacularly embarrassing!Dromedary said:I had to laugh at this bit:
"She’s an educated lady, she read History under Professor Simon Schama at the finest university in the world, The University of Cambridge."
It's an institution that's so fine that its capitalisation spreads even to a preceding definite article that doesn't start a sentence! And the message is so strong, so pure, so elevated, that even a run-on sentence can convey it!
Seriously, TSE, a person doesn't gain intellect or sense just by going to Cambridge, nor by being lectured by a royalist twat like Simon Schama, who's always known what side his bread is buttered on.
Being one of her lecturers and perhaps also a sometime supervisor for a course or two was Schama's maximum involvement in her education at Cambridge anyway. She probably had 20 or more academics who had a similar or greater level of involvement with her. What does it even mean to say that she studied "under" him? She was at Newnham and he was a fellow at Christ's, so he wouldn't have been her director of studies.
I strongly doubt that she got a first. She may have a history degree from Cambridge - in other words, she didn't fail or drop out - but she still seems to be crap at that subject. Here's something she wrote long after she left:
"From the days when the Norman French invaded Anglo-Saxon Britain, we have been a culturally diverse nation. But because the different nationalities shared a common skin colour, it was possible to ignore the racial diversity which always existed in the British Isles. And even if you take race to mean what it is often commonly meant to imply - skin colour- there have been black people in Britain for centuries. The earliest blacks in Britain were probably black Roman centurions that came over hundreds of years before Christ."
*Professor Simon Schama starts deleting bits of his CV...starting with ever being at Cambridge.*0 -
Lorry attack in Jerusalem.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-385467400 -
Abbott is not popular in the party, even with the left.
Can't see it.0 -
Not from me I think. He is a very dangerous man.TOPPING said:
And to think the stick I got the other day when I ventured that McDonnell was electable.rottenborough said:
The thread header certainly made me laugh out loud. So utterly, inconceivably bonkers that the Labour party is probably going to go right ahead and do it.isam said:
Talking of 'polished performers'peter_from_putney said:"She’s a polished television performer"
When I read this, I just had to laugh out loud - since in my opinion she is anything but. For one thing, she is singularly inept at thinking on her feet, an absolute prerequisite for anyone with serious ambitions of achieving senior political office. This is exemplified by her trademark not to mention highly irritating and so transparent habit of looking skywards whilst blinking at a rate of knots whenever she is struggling for an answer to a question, which is often.
If TSE is really serious in suggesting such a fanciful proposition then, as a Tory, all I can say with gleeful hope is Yeah, bring it on!
https://youtu.be/zZ-r7iJZiBM0 -
You would have been as well throwing it out the windowrottenborough said:
Hmm. Interesting. I have stuck £2 on BF on Abbot based on this mornings debates. My aim is to be green on as many of the Labour party leading figures as possible given the huge uncertainty.kyf_100 said:I stuck the princely sum of £2 on Abbott last week at 129/1 after thinking about her path to power. My fevered imagination goes something like this:
It's 2019. Corbyn knows he's not going to win. He stands down, citing his age (also the fact his egotistical streak won't *let* him be remembered as the man who led Labour to it's worst ever defeat).
Who takes over? Unless something drastic changes between now and 2020, a Tory victory is a dead cert. McDonnell doesn't want it, because he knows he's so linked to the Corbyn project failure in 2020 will mean he has to stand down - and a McDonnell loss in 2020 would still discredit the Corbyn project.
Enter Abbott. Shadow home sec. Close to the Corbyn project. And the optics! Black, female, right on...
She will allow the Labour party to lose in 2020 while feeling good about itself.
The left can then tut at the country on twitter for "not being ready for it's first black female PM etc" without the need to disavow the hard left policies the Corbyn project stands for, allowing a more plausible candidate from the left to become leader after 2020 and fight a ropey and disunited dog-days-of-the-Major-years Tory party to become PM in 2025.
Abbott is the best candidate the left can put up in 2020 because it will allow them to lose without drifting back to the centre. For those reasons, she's still worth a punt.0 -
I wondered if Mythbusters ever tried a similar experiment to the water shootingSandpit said:
LOL, that beats sitting around in a boat all day!PlatoSaid said:This is rather awesome
Arrows Sniper https://t.co/U8Pv0tme83
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Exactly , now it is just to allow locals to lounge on the sofaOldKingCole said:
The 50’s and early 60’s reason for immigration was simply that there were more jobs than local workers. Consequently the ‘worse’ vacancies couldn’t be filled. That’s why, for example, Powell recruited West Indian nurses (etc.).HYUFD said:
Labour costs down and wagesDromedary said:
That is not the reason. A high level of immigration has been supported by all major political parties since the 1950s and 1960s for the simple reason that employers want it because it helps keep labour costs down. Blair and Brown would not have been so stupid as to believe that the immigrants would mostly eventually become Labour voters. I doubt they cared a hoot what Labour's voteshare would be 20 or more years after they left politics.David_Evershed said:Transition arrangements for immigrants were available to Blair/Brown but deliberately chose not to use them thinking the immigrants would eventually become British Labour voters.
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Same grammar schoolDavid_Evershed said:
Abott and Portillo went to the same comprehensive school at the same time.rottenborough said:
According to BBC website she once played Lady MacDuff alongside Michael Portillo as MacDuff (as in the Scottish play).MarqueeMark said:
That is spectacularly embarrassing!Dromedary said:I had to laugh at this bit:
"She’s an educated lady, she read History under Professor Simon Schama at the finest university in the world, The University of Cambridge."
It's an institution that's so fine that its capitalisation spreads even to a preceding definite article that doesn't start a sentence! And the message is so strong, so pure, so elevated, that even a run-on sentence can convey it!
Seriously, TSE, a person doesn't gain intellect or sense just by going to Cambridge, nor by being lectured by a royalist twat like Simon Schama, who's always known what side his bread is buttered on.
Being one of her lecturers and perhaps also a sometime supervisor for a course or two was Schama's maximum involvement in her education at Cambridge anyway. She probably had 20 or more academics who had a similar or greater level of involvement with her. What does it even mean to say that she studied "under" him? She was at Newnham and he was a fellow at Christ's, so he wouldn't have been her director of studies.
I strongly doubt that she got a first. She may have a history degree from Cambridge - in other words, she didn't fail or drop out - but she still seems to be crap at that subject. Here's something she wrote long after she left:
"From the days when the Norman French invaded Anglo-Saxon Britain, we have been a culturally diverse nation. But because the different nationalities shared a common skin colour, it was possible to ignore the racial diversity which always existed in the British Isles. And even if you take race to mean what it is often commonly meant to imply - skin colour- there have been black people in Britain for centuries. The earliest blacks in Britain were probably black Roman centurions that came over hundreds of years before Christ."
*Professor Simon Schama starts deleting bits of his CV...starting with ever being at Cambridge.*
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Mr. G, or buying a reasonably priced e-book
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The final sentence is special.Dromedary said:I had to laugh at this bit:
"She’s an educated lady, she read History under Professor Simon Schama at the finest university in the world, The University of Cambridge."
It's an institution that's so fine that its capitalisation spreads even to a preceding definite article that doesn't start a sentence! And the message is so strong, so pure, so elevated, that even a run-on sentence can convey it!
Seriously, TSE, a person doesn't gain intellect or sense just by going to Cambridge, nor by being lectured by a royalist twat like Simon Schama, who's always known what side his bread is buttered on.
Being one of her lecturers and perhaps also a sometime supervisor for a course or two was Schama's maximum involvement in her education at Cambridge anyway. She probably had 20 or more academics who had a similar or greater level of involvement with her. What does it even mean to say that she studied "under" him? She was at Newnham and he was a fellow at Christ's, so he wouldn't have been her director of studies.
I strongly doubt that she got a first. She may have a history degree from Cambridge - in other words, she didn't fail or drop out - but she still seems to be crap at that subject. Here's something she wrote long after she left:
"From the days when the Norman French invaded Anglo-Saxon Britain, we have been a culturally diverse nation. But because the different nationalities shared a common skin colour, it was possible to ignore the racial diversity which always existed in the British Isles. And even if you take race to mean what it is often commonly meant to imply - skin colour- there have been black people in Britain for centuries. The earliest blacks in Britain were probably black Roman centurions that came over hundreds of years before Christ."0 -
Yes it is different todayOldKingCole said:
The 50’s and early 60’s reason for immigration was simply that there were more jobs than local workers. Consequently the ‘worse’ vacancies couldn’t be filled. That’s why, for example, Powell recruited West Indian nurses (etc.).HYUFD said:
Labour costs down and wagesDromedary said:
That is not the reason. A high level of immigration has been supported by all major political parties since the 1950s and 1960s for the simple reason that employers want it because it helps keep labour costs down. Blair and Brown would not have been so stupid as to believe that the immigrants would mostly eventually become Labour voters. I doubt they cared a hoot what Labour's voteshare would be 20 or more years after they left politics.David_Evershed said:Transition arrangements for immigrants were available to Blair/Brown but deliberately chose not to use them thinking the immigrants would eventually become British Labour voters.
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LOL , very true MDMorris_Dancer said:Mr. G, or buying a reasonably priced e-book
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You have rumbled my basic betting strategy.malcolmg said:
You would have been as well throwing it out the windowrottenborough said:
Hmm. Interesting. I have stuck £2 on BF on Abbot based on this mornings debates. My aim is to be green on as many of the Labour party leading figures as possible given the huge uncertainty.kyf_100 said:I stuck the princely sum of £2 on Abbott last week at 129/1 after thinking about her path to power. My fevered imagination goes something like this:
It's 2019. Corbyn knows he's not going to win. He stands down, citing his age (also the fact his egotistical streak won't *let* him be remembered as the man who led Labour to it's worst ever defeat).
Who takes over? Unless something drastic changes between now and 2020, a Tory victory is a dead cert. McDonnell doesn't want it, because he knows he's so linked to the Corbyn project failure in 2020 will mean he has to stand down - and a McDonnell loss in 2020 would still discredit the Corbyn project.
Enter Abbott. Shadow home sec. Close to the Corbyn project. And the optics! Black, female, right on...
She will allow the Labour party to lose in 2020 while feeling good about itself.
The left can then tut at the country on twitter for "not being ready for it's first black female PM etc" without the need to disavow the hard left policies the Corbyn project stands for, allowing a more plausible candidate from the left to become leader after 2020 and fight a ropey and disunited dog-days-of-the-Major-years Tory party to become PM in 2025.
Abbott is the best candidate the left can put up in 2020 because it will allow them to lose without drifting back to the centre. For those reasons, she's still worth a punt.0 -
To rational people, yes. To the snowflakes in the Momentum crowd, it will be a case of "our policies were fine, the country just wasn't ready for our candidate". Look at the kind of people saying Hillary lost because she was a woman, not because she was a rotten candidate.MarqueeMark said:
You make a fair case. But why should Abbot be in any different place to McDonnell? Her loss in 2020 also means she has to stand down - and would still discredit the Corbyn Project.
If the left needs a fall guy to lose in 2020 then stand aside with as little damage to the project as possible, I can't think of a better candidate for them than Abbott.0 -
There is a big difference in nationality laws between Germany and the UK. The Turks and other migrants will forever be Gastarbeiter and can never become citizens, because German nationality is dependent on blood ties, i.e. at least one parent must be an ethnic German; this law dates back to the pre-WW1 German Reich.surbiton said:
You mean like the 3m Turks already there ? They are German ! Their children are becoming world cup winners.Black_Rook said:
Rather more than a million, I'd wager. In any event, it's a Ponzi scheme: what happens when the imported workers get old?surbiton said:And we got good economic growth out of it. Also, our pensions "problem" has been all but mitigated by adding almost a million new [young] taxpayers.
Germany will also get the same benefit soon.
And a prediction: many or most of the flood of unchecked migrants that Germany took in will be poorly educated and struggle to find jobs. And what happens when young Middle Eastern men become disillusioned, frustrated, bored and start to resent the society that won't give them everything they dreamt of? Hmmm, I wonder...?
You have understandable difficulty to understand this. To you, a foreigner is always a foreigner including their children.
Get it straight. Many of the Britons today are sons and daughters of immigrants.
Even the children of mixed marriages can find it difficult. I once had a colleague whose father was Muslim and mother ethnic German and who had German nationality. He found life much better in the UK than his "motherland", because attitudes are much less prejudiced here.0 -
Diane Abbot may become next Labour leader, but the idea that she is a polished media performer with no skeletons is ridiculous.0
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It's the sort of thing they might have done in the later series, as they took inspiration from online videos. They'd have had to do it with fake fish though, just testing the bow, arrow and line system. Definitely plausible.PlatoSaid said:
I wondered if Mythbusters ever tried a similar experiment to the water shootingSandpit said:
LOL, that beats sitting around in a boat all day!PlatoSaid said:This is rather awesome
Arrows Sniper https://t.co/U8Pv0tme830 -
Abbot is very unlikely to be the next labour leader but those odds are ok as a possible trading bet.
Rogers departure from the civil service is interesting. If I was in the foreign office I would be looking at other employment options right now. They all think we are stuffed diplomatically and marks the swift decline of the UK as a credible world power. They are probably right. There will probably be a putin backed argentine invasion of the falklands or something which we will do nothing about.
Been in finland these past 2 weeks. Used to talk about politics a lot but now it brings up an awkward silence. Brexit is seen as a national humiliation for us. Two quiet comments stand out 1 that in finland they have no desire to leave the eu because they were never "great", 2 that we shouldnt feel bad as brexit is part of a wider change in.opinion against open borders and immigration globalisation etc
None of this changes my view that the brexiteers need to implement the decision and be given a free run at brexit, only then can they be held to account politically. If it is a disaster as I believe it will be we can join the eu again in the future minus our arrogance and delusions of grandeur. If we make a success of it then great ill be happy to be proved wrong0 -
Were Portillo and Abbott at the same school or was it more complicated than that and they were at neighbouring single-sex schools that had some joint activity or possibly amalgamated? I vaguely recall them talking about it once with Andrew Neil but can't remember the details.HYUFD said:
Same grammar schoolDavid_Evershed said:
Abott and Portillo went to the same comprehensive school at the same time.rottenborough said:
According to BBC website she once played Lady MacDuff alongside Michael Portillo as MacDuff (as in the Scottish play).MarqueeMark said:
That is spectacularly embarrassing!Dromedary said:I had to laugh at this bit:
"She’s an educated lady, she read History under Professor Simon Schama at the finest university in the world, The University of Cambridge."
It's an institution that's so fine that its capitalisation spreads even to a preceding definite article that doesn't start a sentence! And the message is so strong, so pure, so elevated, that even a run-on sentence can convey it!
Seriously, TSE, a person doesn't gain intellect or sense just by going to Cambridge, nor by being lectured by a royalist twat like Simon Schama, who's always known what side his bread is buttered on.
Being one of her lecturers and perhaps also a sometime supervisor for a course or two was Schama's maximum involvement in her education at Cambridge anyway. She probably had 20 or more academics who had a similar or greater level of involvement with her. What does it even mean to say that she studied "under" him? She was at Newnham and he was a fellow at Christ's, so he wouldn't have been her director of studies.
I strongly doubt that she got a first. She may have a history degree from Cambridge - in other words, she didn't fail or drop out - but she still seems to be crap at that subject. Here's something she wrote long after she left:
"From the days when the Norman French invaded Anglo-Saxon Britain, we have been a culturally diverse nation. But because the different nationalities shared a common skin colour, it was possible to ignore the racial diversity which always existed in the British Isles. And even if you take race to mean what it is often commonly meant to imply - skin colour- there have been black people in Britain for centuries. The earliest blacks in Britain were probably black Roman centurions that came over hundreds of years before Christ."
*Professor Simon Schama starts deleting bits of his CV...starting with ever being at Cambridge.*0 -
I don't know. Does "behaving like any other people" include voting Leave? I'm happy with that. Are you?surbiton said:
Isn't it a good thing that immigrants start behaving like any other people ? So why not have some more ? Despite all these immigrants, our unemployment kept on falling.Ishmael_Z said:
And many of those sons and daughters of immigrants want to see tighter checks on immigration. And voted leave for that reason. Inconvenient facts which you have to ignore because you want to cling to your delusion that racism underlies concern about immigration.surbiton said:
You mean like the 3m Turks already there ? They are German ! Their children are becoming world cup winners.Black_Rook said:
Rather more than a million, I'd wager. In any event, it's a Ponzi scheme: what happens when the imported workers get old?surbiton said:And we got good economic growth out of it. Also, our pensions "problem" has been all but mitigated by adding almost a million new [young] taxpayers.
Germany will also get the same benefit soon.
And a prediction: many or most of the flood of unchecked migrants that Germany took in will be poorly educated and struggle to find jobs. And what happens when young Middle Eastern men become disillusioned, frustrated, bored and start to resent the society that won't give them everything they dreamt of? Hmmm, I wonder...?
You have understandable difficulty to understand this. To you, a foreigner is always a foreigner including their children.
Get it straight. Many of the Britons today are sons and daughters of immigrants.
Maybe, they were adding to the economy , not taking anything away.0 -
LOL, Did you like the namerottenborough said:
You have rumbled my basic betting strategy.malcolmg said:
You would have been as well throwing it out the windowrottenborough said:
Hmm. Interesting. I have stuck £2 on BF on Abbot based on this mornings debates. My aim is to be green on as many of the Labour party leading figures as possible given the huge uncertainty.kyf_100 said:I stuck the princely sum of £2 on Abbott last week at 129/1 after thinking about her path to power. My fevered imagination goes something like this:
It's 2019. Corbyn knows he's not going to win. He stands down, citing his age (also the fact his egotistical streak won't *let* him be remembered as the man who led Labour to it's worst ever defeat).
Who takes over? Unless something drastic changes between now and 2020, a Tory victory is a dead cert. McDonnell doesn't want it, because he knows he's so linked to the Corbyn project failure in 2020 will mean he has to stand down - and a McDonnell loss in 2020 would still discredit the Corbyn project.
Enter Abbott. Shadow home sec. Close to the Corbyn project. And the optics! Black, female, right on...
She will allow the Labour party to lose in 2020 while feeling good about itself.
The left can then tut at the country on twitter for "not being ready for it's first black female PM etc" without the need to disavow the hard left policies the Corbyn project stands for, allowing a more plausible candidate from the left to become leader after 2020 and fight a ropey and disunited dog-days-of-the-Major-years Tory party to become PM in 2025.
Abbott is the best candidate the left can put up in 2020 because it will allow them to lose without drifting back to the centre. For those reasons, she's still worth a punt.0 -
Neighbouring single sex schools, according to wikipedia.DecrepitJohnL said:
Were Portillo and Abbott at the same school or was it more complicated than that and they were at neighbouring single-sex schools that had some joint activity or possibly amalgamated? I vaguely recall them talking about it once with Andrew Neil but can't remember the details.HYUFD said:
Same grammar schoolDavid_Evershed said:
Abott and Portillo went to the same comprehensive school at the same time.rottenborough said:
According to BBC website she once played Lady MacDuff alongside Michael Portillo as MacDuff (as in the Scottish play).MarqueeMark said:
That is spectacularly embarrassing!Dromedary said:I had to laugh at this bit:
"She’s an educated lady, she read History under Professor Simon Schama at the finest university in the world, The University of Cambridge."
It's an institution that's so fine that its capitalisation spreads even to a preceding definite article that doesn't start a sentence! And the message is so strong, so pure, so elevated, that even a run-on sentence can convey it!
Seriously, TSE, a person doesn't gain intellect or sense just by going to Cambridge, nor by being lectured by a royalist twat like Simon Schama, who's always known what side his bread is buttered on.
Being one of her lecturers and perhaps also a sometime supervisor for a course or two was Schama's maximum involvement in her education at Cambridge anyway. She probably had 20 or more academics who had a similar or greater level of involvement with her. What does it even mean to say that she studied "under" him? She was at Newnham and he was a fellow at Christ's, so he wouldn't have been her director of studies.
I strongly doubt that she got a first. She may have a history degree from Cambridge - in other words, she didn't fail or drop out - but she still seems to be crap at that subject. Here's something she wrote long after she left:
"From the days when the Norman French invaded Anglo-Saxon Britain, we have been a culturally diverse nation. But because the different nationalities shared a common skin colour, it was possible to ignore the racial diversity which always existed in the British Isles. And even if you take race to mean what it is often commonly meant to imply - skin colour- there have been black people in Britain for centuries. The earliest blacks in Britain were probably black Roman centurions that came over hundreds of years before Christ."
*Professor Simon Schama starts deleting bits of his CV...starting with ever being at Cambridge.*
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Those stats are by country of birth, not duration of residence, some would have been here for half a century or more, including both Indians and Poles.surbiton said:
Why do we have so many Indians coming here ? What was T May doing when she was at the Home Office ?HYUFD said:
Actually in 2016 Poland overtook India as the main source of migrants to the UKwilliamglenn said:
Look at the huge spike in non-EU migration from 1997 onwards. At no point has EU migration been higher than non-EU. If we're laying the blame at New Labour's door, the problems started well before 2004.Black_Rook said:If we'd not had out-of-control population growth since 2004...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37183733
It is really the annual net flow we should be lolking at when interpreting the figures. A further point is that many ethnic Brits were born in Germany and Cyprus and count in the figures, and many Indian Brits were born in East or Central Africa.0 -
They edited out the previous 8,903 times he hit nothing.....PlatoSaid said:This is rather awesome
Arrows Sniper https://t.co/U8Pv0tme830 -
"I can’t quite believe I placed this bet".
Nor can I. Labour would never do something like elect a woman.0 -
Is it? try recruiting British Nurses or Doctors now...HYUFD said:
Yes it is different todayOldKingCole said:
The 50’s and early 60’s reason for immigration was simply that there were more jobs than local workers. Consequently the ‘worse’ vacancies couldn’t be filled. That’s why, for example, Powell recruited West Indian nurses (etc.).HYUFD said:
Labour costs down and wagesDromedary said:
That is not the reason. A high level of immigration has been supported by all major political parties since the 1950s and 1960s for the simple reason that employers want it because it helps keep labour costs down. Blair and Brown would not have been so stupid as to believe that the immigrants would mostly eventually become Labour voters. I doubt they cared a hoot what Labour's voteshare would be 20 or more years after they left politics.David_Evershed said:Transition arrangements for immigrants were available to Blair/Brown but deliberately chose not to use them thinking the immigrants would eventually become British Labour voters.
0 -
Brexit makes next to zero impact on our position as a world power, we have not been a superpower since India gained independence and we would still be a medium sized power in or outside the EU. Putin has zero interest in the Falklands and indeed the new Argentine President is far more reasonable and less bellicose over the islands than Kirchner is, that is a million miles from the Fascist junta which invaded them in 1982 (plus they are better garrisoned). Once migrants from Eastern Europe and the Balkans start to move elsewhere in Europe to states still in the EEA if the UK implements border control then you are likely to see an increase in demands for border control there toonielh said:Abbot is very unlikely to be the next labour leader but those odds are ok as a possible trading bet.
Rogers departure from the civil service is interesting. If I was in the foreign office I would be looking at other employment options right now. They all think we are stuffed diplomatically and marks the swift decline of the UK as a credible world power. They are probably right. There will probably be a putin backed argentine invasion of the falklands or something which we will do nothing about.
Been in finland these past 2 weeks. Used to talk about politics a lot but now it brings up an awkward silence. Brexit is seen as a national humiliation for us. Two quiet comments stand out 1 that in finland they have no desire to leave the eu because they were never "great", 2 that we shouldnt feel bad as brexit is part of a wider change in.opinion against open borders and immigration globalisation etc
None of this changes my view that the brexiteers need to implement the decision and be given a free run at brexit, only then can they be held to account politically. If it is a disaster as I believe it will be we can join the eu again in the future minus our arrogance and delusions of grandeur. If we make a success of it then great ill be happy to be proved wrong0 -
Yes, the statistics on origins of people have always had a large number of anomalies, and in the future this will only get to be more of a problem. My two nephews were born in Dubai but they will definitely never be Emirati, I have friends and children of friends born all over Asia, the Middle East and Africa who are all very much British. A lot of these countries are very strict on whom they will allow their nationality to be given.foxinsoxuk said:
Those stats are by country of birth, not duration of residence, some would have been here for half a century or more, including both Indians and Poles.surbiton said:
Why do we have so many Indians coming here ? What was T May doing when she was at the Home Office ?HYUFD said:
Actually in 2016 Poland overtook India as the main source of migrants to the UKwilliamglenn said:
Look at the huge spike in non-EU migration from 1997 onwards. At no point has EU migration been higher than non-EU. If we're laying the blame at New Labour's door, the problems started well before 2004.Black_Rook said:If we'd not had out-of-control population growth since 2004...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37183733
It is really the annual net flow we should be lolking at when interpreting the figures. A further point is that many ethnic Brits were born in Germany and Cyprus and count in the figures, and many Indian Brits were born in East or Central Africa.0 -
Of course. Reminds me of Derren Brown becoming the first man to get a coin tossed heads ten times in a row on video. It took him ten hours and we saw only the last 30 seconds of the tape!MarqueeMark said:
They edited out the previous 8,903 times he hit nothing.....PlatoSaid said:This is rather awesome
Arrows Sniper https://t.co/U8Pv0tme830 -
Septimius Severus (imp. 193-211 AD) came from Leptis Magna in Libya and may have been the Roman Obama. Incidentally and horribly, Leptis Magna grew rich on the trade in exotic beast to be slaughtered in Rome.Malmesbury said:
Ignoring the AD - BC screwup....MarqueeMark said:
That is spectacularly embarrassing!Dromedary said:I had to laugh at this bit:
"She’s an educated lady, she read History under Professor Simon Schama at the finest university in the world, The University of Cambridge."
It's an institution that's so fine that its capitalisation spreads even to a preceding definite article that doesn't start a sentence! And the message is so strong, so pure, so elevated, that even a run-on sentence can convey it!
Seriously, TSE, a person doesn't gain intellect or sense just by going to Cambridge, nor by being lectured by a royalist twat like Simon Schama, who's always known what side his bread is buttered on.
Being one of her lecturers and perhaps also a sometime supervisor for a course or two was Schama's maximum involvement in her education at Cambridge anyway. She probably had 20 or more academics who had a similar or greater level of involvement with her. What does it even mean to say that she studied "under" him? She was at Newnham and he was a fellow at Christ's, so he wouldn't have been her director of studies.
I strongly doubt that she got a first. She may have a history degree from Cambridge - in other words, she didn't fail or drop out - but she still seems to be crap at that subject. Here's something she wrote long after she left:
"From the days when the Norman French invaded Anglo-Saxon Britain, we have been a culturally diverse nation. But because the different nationalities shared a common skin colour, it was possible to ignore the racial diversity which always existed in the British Isles. And even if you take race to mean what it is often commonly meant to imply - skin colour- there have been black people in Britain for centuries. The earliest blacks in Britain were probably black Roman centurions that came over hundreds of years before Christ."
*Professor Simon Schama starts deleting bits of his CV...starting with ever being at Cambridge.*
Honest question - would the Roman army have ever had a black Centurion? They were very racist - the.... Latin word word for those of African origin.... was used as an extreme insult (see a speech by Cicero) in the ugliest sense. But then again, the Romans, in the end, made just about anyone a citizen and the army contained every nationality they included in the Empire0 -
Mr. Z, possible, but (from memory of his biography) he may have been of senatorial stock. If he was Punic, then his ethnicity would be more Liby-Phoenician than black African (could perhaps have been mixed race, part-Roman, part-Liby-Phoenician).0
-
The University of Cambridge: not even the best university in Cambridge.0
-
Don't let @TheScreamingEagles let you hear you say that!Ishmael_Z said:The University of Cambridge: not even the best university in Cambridge.
0 -
I see they are opening a medical school next year.Ishmael_Z said:The University of Cambridge: not even the best university in Cambridge.
0 -
Polly Toynbee on Sky inferring that Theresa May avoided the BBC for Sky because of Rupert Murdoch's growing interest in Sky.
The left are possessed by Rupert Murdoch0 -
And by the way full marks to Sophy Ridge who passed her first real test with flying colours.Big_G_NorthWales said:Polly Toynbee on Sky inferring that Theresa May avoided the BBC for Sky because of Rupert Murdoch's growing interest in Sky.
The left are possessed by Rupert Murdoch
The dinosaurs of Marr, Peston, and others need to watch out0 -
To be fair, Murdoch has influenced British politics going back decades on a scale Vladimir Putin can only dream of.Big_G_NorthWales said:Polly Toynbee on Sky inferring that Theresa May avoided the BBC for Sky because of Rupert Murdoch's growing interest in Sky.
The left are possessed by Rupert Murdoch0 -
Wikipedia says Punic on father's side, although may be also be some Libyan stock.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Z, possible, but (from memory of his biography) he may have been of senatorial stock. If he was Punic, then his ethnicity would be more Liby-Phoenician than black African (could perhaps have been mixed race, part-Roman, part-Liby-Phoenician).
0 -
Agreed but you have to be cynical beyond belief to think that Theresa May did this to impress him.DecrepitJohnL said:
To be fair, Murdoch has influenced British politics going back decades on a scale Vladimir Putin can only dream of.Big_G_NorthWales said:Polly Toynbee on Sky inferring that Theresa May avoided the BBC for Sky because of Rupert Murdoch's growing interest in Sky.
The left are possessed by Rupert Murdoch
The big story is the success of Sophy Ridge and such a welcome change from Marr etc0 -
Perhaps May did it because a woman was the principal interviewer and show presenter?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Agreed but you have to be cynical beyond belief to think that Theresa May did this to impress him.DecrepitJohnL said:
To be fair, Murdoch has influenced British politics going back decades on a scale Vladimir Putin can only dream of.Big_G_NorthWales said:Polly Toynbee on Sky inferring that Theresa May avoided the BBC for Sky because of Rupert Murdoch's growing interest in Sky.
The left are possessed by Rupert Murdoch
The big story is the success of Sophy Ridge and such a welcome change from Marr etc0 -
Yes - he was half Roman, half Punic. The Punic side might have had local Libyan inter-marriages....Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Z, possible, but (from memory of his biography) he may have been of senatorial stock. If he was Punic, then his ethnicity would be more Liby-Phoenician than black African (could perhaps have been mixed race, part-Roman, part-Liby-Phoenician).
0 -
Interestingly, Finland will hold the EU council presidency in the (potentially) crucial period July-Dec 2019.HYUFD said:
Brexit makes next to zero impact on our position as a world power, we have not been a superpower since India gained independence and we would still be a medium sized power in or outside the EU. Putin has zero interest in the Falklands and indeed the new Argentine President is far more reasonable and less bellicose over the islands than Kirchner is, that is a million miles from the Fascist junta which invaded them in 1982 (plus they are better garrisoned). Once migrants from Eastern Europe and the Balkans start to move elsewhere in Europe to states still in the EEA if the UK implements border control then you are likely to see an increase in demands for border control there toonielh said:Abbot is very unlikely to be the next labour leader but those odds are ok as a possible trading bet.
Rogers departure from the civil service is interesting. If I was in the foreign office I would be looking at other employment options right now. They all think we are stuffed diplomatically and marks the swift decline of the UK as a credible world power. They are probably right. There will probably be a putin backed argentine invasion of the falklands or something which we will do nothing about.
Been in finland these past 2 weeks. Used to talk about politics a lot but now it brings up an awkward silence. Brexit is seen as a national humiliation for us. Two quiet comments stand out 1 that in finland they have no desire to leave the eu because they were never "great", 2 that we shouldnt feel bad as brexit is part of a wider change in.opinion against open borders and immigration globalisation etc
None of this changes my view that the brexiteers need to implement the decision and be given a free run at brexit, only then can they be held to account politically. If it is a disaster as I believe it will be we can join the eu again in the future minus our arrogance and delusions of grandeur. If we make a success of it then great ill be happy to be proved wrong0 -
They have trialled it in Scotland with dire results, hard to believe but they were equally as bad as the previous male donkeys.david_herdson said:"I can’t quite believe I placed this bet".
Nor can I. Labour would never do something like elect a woman.0 -
This thread made me less intelligent.
The most worrying part for Labour is most of their craziest far-left MPs are in very very safe seats with no prospect of removal. It could get a lot worse with Sadiq departed. Andy B. and Steve R. both departing - whoever gets parachuted into those safe seats could define the direction of the party post-Corbyn.0 -
Andrew Neil looks to be the only dinosaur not under immediate threat from the rise of the mammals.Big_G_NorthWales said:
And by the way full marks to Sophy Ridge who passed her first real test with flying colours.Big_G_NorthWales said:Polly Toynbee on Sky inferring that Theresa May avoided the BBC for Sky because of Rupert Murdoch's growing interest in Sky.
The left are possessed by Rupert Murdoch
The dinosaurs of Marr, Peston, and others need to watch out
It's gonna take an asteroid to shift him.0 -
Part of the problem there is Osborne's scrapping of the bursary for nurse training places and plenty of nurses and doctors are recruited outside the EUfoxinsoxuk said:
Is it? try recruiting British Nurses or Doctors now...HYUFD said:
Yes it is different todayOldKingCole said:
The 50’s and early 60’s reason for immigration was simply that there were more jobs than local workers. Consequently the ‘worse’ vacancies couldn’t be filled. That’s why, for example, Powell recruited West Indian nurses (etc.).HYUFD said:
Labour costs down and wagesDromedary said:
That is not the reason. A high level of immigration has been supported by all major political parties since the 1950s and 1960s for the simple reason that employers want it because it helps keep labour costs down. Blair and Brown would not have been so stupid as to believe that the immigrants would mostly eventually become Labour voters. I doubt they cared a hoot what Labour's voteshare would be 20 or more years after they left politics.David_Evershed said:Transition arrangements for immigrants were available to Blair/Brown but deliberately chose not to use them thinking the immigrants would eventually become British Labour voters.
0 -
You can gauge Abbott's popularity within the Labour party by the success she enjoyed when running for the party's mayoral nomination.0
-
I would prefer it was hemorrhoidsMarqueeMark said:
Andrew Neil looks to be the only dinosaur not under immediate threat from the rise of the mammals.Big_G_NorthWales said:
And by the way full marks to Sophy Ridge who passed her first real test with flying colours.Big_G_NorthWales said:Polly Toynbee on Sky inferring that Theresa May avoided the BBC for Sky because of Rupert Murdoch's growing interest in Sky.
The left are possessed by Rupert Murdoch
The dinosaurs of Marr, Peston, and others need to watch out
It's gonna take an asteroid to shift him.0 -
The nationalist True Finns are in a coalition government in Finlandrottenborough said:
Interestingly, Finland will hold the EU council presidency in the (potentially) crucial period July-Dec 2019.HYUFD said:
Brexit makes next to zero impact on our position as a world power, we have not been a superpower since India gained independence and we would still be a medium sized power in or outside the EU. Putin has zero interest in the Falklands and indeed the new Argentine President is far more reasonable and less bellicose over the islands than Kirchner is, that is a million miles from the Fascist junta which invaded them in 1982 (plus they are better garrisoned). Once migrants from Eastern Europe and the Balkans start to move elsewhere in Europe to states still in the EEA if the UK implements border control then you are likely to see an increase in demands for border control there toonielh said:Abbot is very unlikely to be the next labour leader but those odds are ok as a possible trading bet.
Rogers departure from the civil service is interesting. If I was in the foreign office I would be looking at other employment options right now. They all think we are stuffed diplomatically and marks the swift decline of the UK as a credible world power. They are probably right. There will probably be a putin backed argentine invasion of the falklands or something which we will do nothing about.
Been in finland these past 2 weeks. Used to talk about politics a lot but now it brings up an awkward silence. Brexit is seen as a national humiliation for us. Two quiet comments stand out 1 that in finland they have no desire to leave the eu because they were never "great", 2 that we shouldnt feel bad as brexit is part of a wider change in.opinion against open borders and immigration globalisation etc
None of this changes my view that the brexiteers need to implement the decision and be given a free run at brexit, only then can they be held to account politically. If it is a disaster as I believe it will be we can join the eu again in the future minus our arrogance and delusions of grandeur. If we make a success of it then great ill be happy to be proved wrong0 -
...and their foreign minister is a True Finn party member. Could be interesting.HYUFD said:
The nationalist True Finns are in a coalition government in Finlandrottenborough said:
Interestingly, Finland will hold the EU council presidency in the (potentially) crucial period July-Dec 2019.HYUFD said:
Brexit makes next to zero impact on our position as a world power, we have not been a superpower since India gained independence and we would still be a medium sized power in or outside the EU. Putin has zero interest in the Falklands and indeed the new Argentine President is far more reasonable and less bellicose over the islands than Kirchner is, that is a million miles from the Fascist junta which invaded them in 1982 (plus they are better garrisoned). Once migrants from Eastern Europe and the Balkans start to move elsewhere in Europe to states still in the EEA if the UK implements border control then you are likely to see an increase in demands for border control there toonielh said:Abbot is very unlikely to be the next labour leader but those odds are ok as a possible trading bet.
Rogers departure from the civil service is interesting. If I was in the foreign office I would be looking at other employment options right now. They all think we are stuffed diplomatically and marks the swift decline of the UK as a credible world power. They are probably right. There will probably be a putin backed argentine invasion of the falklands or something which we will do nothing about.
Been in finland these past 2 weeks. Used to talk about politics a lot but now it brings up an awkward silence. Brexit is seen as a national humiliation for us. Two quiet comments stand out 1 that in finland they have no desire to leave the eu because they were never "great", 2 that we shouldnt feel bad as brexit is part of a wider change in.opinion against open borders and immigration globalisation etc
None of this changes my view that the brexiteers need to implement the decision and be given a free run at brexit, only then can they be held to account politically. If it is a disaster as I believe it will be we can join the eu again in the future minus our arrogance and delusions of grandeur. If we make a success of it then great ill be happy to be proved wrong0 -
MarqueeMark said:
Andrew Neil looks to be the only dinosaur not under immediate threat from the rise of the mammals.Big_G_NorthWales said:
And by the way full marks to Sophy Ridge who passed her first real test with flying colours.Big_G_NorthWales said:Polly Toynbee on Sky inferring that Theresa May avoided the BBC for Sky because of Rupert Murdoch's growing interest in Sky.
The left are possessed by Rupert Murdoch
The dinosaurs of Marr, Peston, and others need to watch out
It's gonna take an asteroid to shift him.
There are actually very few crazy left-wing Labour MPs, which is why Corbyn only made it onto the ballot with nominations from non-crazies (who actually turned out to be the stupidest Labour MPs there have ever been - and there is a long list).Pauly said:This thread made me less intelligent.
The most worrying part for Labour is most of their craziest far-left MPs are in very very safe seats with no prospect of removal. It could get a lot worse with Sadiq departed. Andy B. and Steve R. both departing - whoever gets parachuted into those safe seats could define the direction of the party post-Corbyn.
0 -
You should nominate Margaret Beckett for the Top Turnip awardSouthamObserver said:MarqueeMark said:
Andrew Neil looks to be the only dinosaur not under immediate threat from the rise of the mammals.Big_G_NorthWales said:
And by the way full marks to Sophy Ridge who passed her first real test with flying colours.Big_G_NorthWales said:Polly Toynbee on Sky inferring that Theresa May avoided the BBC for Sky because of Rupert Murdoch's growing interest in Sky.
The left are possessed by Rupert Murdoch
The dinosaurs of Marr, Peston, and others need to watch out
It's gonna take an asteroid to shift him.
There are actually very few crazy left-wing Labour MPs, which is why Corbyn only made it onto the ballot with nominations from non-crazies (who actually turned out to be the stupidest Labour MPs there have ever been - and there is a long list).Pauly said:This thread made me less intelligent.
The most worrying part for Labour is most of their craziest far-left MPs are in very very safe seats with no prospect of removal. It could get a lot worse with Sadiq departed. Andy B. and Steve R. both departing - whoever gets parachuted into those safe seats could define the direction of the party post-Corbyn.0 -
Conservative party members have never elected a woman leader either.david_herdson said:"I can’t quite believe I placed this bet".
Nor can I. Labour would never do something like elect a woman.0 -
All the bad bits of Corbyn with the added extra of seeing everything through the prism of black vs white!SouthamObserver said:You can gauge Abbott's popularity within the Labour party by the success she enjoyed when running for the party's mayoral nomination.
I'd say the reason she is asked on tv so much is because she is such a n unpolished performer... there are youtube compilations of her gaffes!
0 -
Just the woman to negotiate with Trump...Alanbrooke said:
You should nominate Margaret Beckett for the Top Turnip awardSouthamObserver said:MarqueeMark said:
Andrew Neil looks to be the only dinosaur not under immediate threat from the rise of the mammals.Big_G_NorthWales said:
And by the way full marks to Sophy Ridge who passed her first real test with flying colours.Big_G_NorthWales said:Polly Toynbee on Sky inferring that Theresa May avoided the BBC for Sky because of Rupert Murdoch's growing interest in Sky.
The left are possessed by Rupert Murdoch
The dinosaurs of Marr, Peston, and others need to watch out
It's gonna take an asteroid to shift him.
There are actually very few crazy left-wing Labour MPs, which is why Corbyn only made it onto the ballot with nominations from non-crazies (who actually turned out to be the stupidest Labour MPs there have ever been - and there is a long list).Pauly said:This thread made me less intelligent.
The most worrying part for Labour is most of their craziest far-left MPs are in very very safe seats with no prospect of removal. It could get a lot worse with Sadiq departed. Andy B. and Steve R. both departing - whoever gets parachuted into those safe seats could define the direction of the party post-Corbyn.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHl3F5doPkw0 -
There are more than 50 I would say, just a minority understand the electorate are more right-wing than they are.SouthamObserver said:MarqueeMark said:
Andrew Neil looks to be the only dinosaur not under immediate threat from the rise of the mammals.Big_G_NorthWales said:
And by the way full marks to Sophy Ridge who passed her first real test with flying colours.Big_G_NorthWales said:Polly Toynbee on Sky inferring that Theresa May avoided the BBC for Sky because of Rupert Murdoch's growing interest in Sky.
The left are possessed by Rupert Murdoch
The dinosaurs of Marr, Peston, and others need to watch out
It's gonna take an asteroid to shift him.
There are actually very few crazy left-wing Labour MPs, which is why Corbyn only made it onto the ballot with nominations from non-crazies (who actually turned out to be the stupidest Labour MPs there have ever been - and there is a long list).Pauly said:This thread made me less intelligent.
The most worrying part for Labour is most of their craziest far-left MPs are in very very safe seats with no prospect of removal. It could get a lot worse with Sadiq departed. Andy B. and Steve R. both departing - whoever gets parachuted into those safe seats could define the direction of the party post-Corbyn.
Not being able to dislodge this awkward squad could cause a future sensible leader some big problems over the long term.0 -
No - that award should go to Harriet Harman. Her decision to abstain on Osborne's welfare proposals - announced in his July 2015 Budget - gifted Corbyn the Leadership election.Alanbrooke said:
You should nominate Margaret Beckett for the Top Turnip awardSouthamObserver said:MarqueeMark said:
Andrew Neil looks to be the only dinosaur not under immediate threat from the rise of the mammals.Big_G_NorthWales said:
And by the way full marks to Sophy Ridge who passed her first real test with flying colours.Big_G_NorthWales said:Polly Toynbee on Sky inferring that Theresa May avoided the BBC for Sky because of Rupert Murdoch's growing interest in Sky.
The left are possessed by Rupert Murdoch
The dinosaurs of Marr, Peston, and others need to watch out
It's gonna take an asteroid to shift him.
There are actually very few crazy left-wing Labour MPs, which is why Corbyn only made it onto the ballot with nominations from non-crazies (who actually turned out to be the stupidest Labour MPs there have ever been - and there is a long list).Pauly said:This thread made me less intelligent.
The most worrying part for Labour is most of their craziest far-left MPs are in very very safe seats with no prospect of removal. It could get a lot worse with Sadiq departed. Andy B. and Steve R. both departing - whoever gets parachuted into those safe seats could define the direction of the party post-Corbyn.0 -
Especially if 5* have won the Italian election the previous Mayrottenborough said:
...and their foreign minister is a True Finn party member. Could be interesting.HYUFD said:
The nationalist True Finns are in a coalition government in Finlandrottenborough said:
Interestingly, Finland will hold the EU council presidency in the (potentially) crucial period July-Dec 2019.HYUFD said:
Brexit makes next to zero impact on our position as a world power, we have not been a superpower since India gained independence and we would still be a medium sized power in or outside the EU. Putin has zero interest in the Falklands and indeed the new Argentine President is far more reasonable and less bellicose over the islands than Kirchner is, that is a million miles from the Fascist junta which invaded them in 1982 (plus they are better garrisoned). Once migrants from Eastern Europe and the Balkans start to move elsewhere in Europe to states still in the EEA if the UK implements border control then you are likely to see an increase in demands for border control there toonielh said:Abbot is very unlikely to be the next labour leader but those odds are ok as a possible trading bet.
Rogers departure from the civil service is interesting. If I was in the foreign office I would be looking at other employment options right now. They all think we are stuffed diplomatically and marks the swift decline of the UK as a credible world power. They are probably right. There will probably be a putin backed argentine invasion of the falklands or something which we will do nothing about.
Been in finland these past 2 weeks. Used to talk about politics a lot but now it brings up an awkward silence. Brexit is seen as a national humiliation for us. Two quiet comments stand out 1 that in finland they have no desire to leave the eu because they were never "great", 2 that we shouldnt feel bad as brexit is part of a wider change in.opinion against open borders and immigration globalisation etc
None of this changes my view that the brexiteers need to implement the decision and be given a free run at brexit, only then can they be held to account politically. If it is a disaster as I believe it will be we can join the eu again in the future minus our arrogance and delusions of grandeur. If we make a success of it then great ill be happy to be proved wrong0 -
I'm shocked.isam said:
All the bad bits of Corbyn with the added extra of seeing everything through the prism of black vs white!SouthamObserver said:You can gauge Abbott's popularity within the Labour party by the success she enjoyed when running for the party's mayoral nomination.
I'd say the reason she is asked on tv so much is because she is such a n unpolished performer... there are youtube compilations of her gaffes!
Who isn't mesmerised by her eye-rolling, sighing, patronising primary school teacher manner.
It's in the How To Do Guide for politicians.0 -
Could never see the appeal myself - Abbott squealing 'Ooo Tony said .... Ooo Gordon will' alongside the oleaginous Portillo with his octopus arms.isam said:Did I really read that Diane Abbot is 'a polished tv performer'?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LxRqMJHG56A0 -
He is very goodMarqueeMark said:
Andrew Neil looks to be the only dinosaur not under immediate threat from the rise of the mammals.Big_G_NorthWales said:
And by the way full marks to Sophy Ridge who passed her first real test with flying colours.Big_G_NorthWales said:Polly Toynbee on Sky inferring that Theresa May avoided the BBC for Sky because of Rupert Murdoch's growing interest in Sky.
The left are possessed by Rupert Murdoch
The dinosaurs of Marr, Peston, and others need to watch out
It's gonna take an asteroid to shift him.0 -
Cynical beyond belief or old enough to remember Tony Blair flying to Australia to kowtow to Murdoch.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Agreed but you have to be cynical beyond belief to think that Theresa May did this to impress him.DecrepitJohnL said:
To be fair, Murdoch has influenced British politics going back decades on a scale Vladimir Putin can only dream of.Big_G_NorthWales said:Polly Toynbee on Sky inferring that Theresa May avoided the BBC for Sky because of Rupert Murdoch's growing interest in Sky.
The left are possessed by Rupert Murdoch
The big story is the success of Sophy Ridge and such a welcome change from Marr etc0 -
The loonies who are repeatedly voting in Corbyn don't care about any of that New Labour-style froth and PR media nonsense. Purity and authenticity are all.PlatoSaid said:
I'm shocked.isam said:
All the bad bits of Corbyn with the added extra of seeing everything through the prism of black vs white!SouthamObserver said:You can gauge Abbott's popularity within the Labour party by the success she enjoyed when running for the party's mayoral nomination.
I'd say the reason she is asked on tv so much is because she is such a n unpolished performer... there are youtube compilations of her gaffes!
Who isn't mesmerised by her eye-rolling, sighing, patronising primary school teacher manner.
It's in the How To Do Guide for politicians.
0 -
Although the cultists would have to overlook Abbot's child schooling issue?0
-
True finns are in power but there is no desire to leave the EU.HYUFD said:
The nationalist True Finns are in a coalition government in Finlandrottenborough said:
Interestingly, Finland will hold the EU council presidency in the (potentially) crucial period July-Dec 2019.HYUFD said:
Brexit makes next to zero impact on our position as a world power, we have not been a superpower since India gained independence and we would still be a medium sized power in or outside the EU. Putin has zero interest in the Falklands and indeed the new Argentine President is far more reasonable and less bellicose over the islands than Kirchner is, that is a million miles from the Fascist junta which invaded them in 1982 (plus they are better garrisoned). Once migrants from Eastern Europe and the Balkans start to move elsewhere in Europe to states still in the EEA if the UK implements border control then you are likely to see an increase in demands for border control there toonielh said:Abbot is very unlikely to be the next labour leader but those odds are ok as a possible trading bet.
Rogers departure from the civil service is interesting. If I was in the foreign office I would be looking at other employment options right now. They all think we are stuffed diplomatically and marks the swift decline of the UK as a credible world power. They are probably right. There will probably be a putin backed argentine invasion of the falklands or something which we will do nothing about.
Been in finland these we shouldnt feel bad as brexit is part of a wider change in.opinion against open borders and immigration globalisation etc
None of this changes my view that the brexiteers need to implement the decision and be given a free run at brexit, only then can they be held to account politically. If it is a disaster as I believe it will be we can join the eu again in the future minus our arrogance and delusions of grandeur. If we make a success of it then great ill be happy to be proved wrong
Even the freedom party in austria and the FN in france have no desire to quit the EU. Even Afd dont want to quit the EU. With brexit these populist parties are annoyed with us as we were a force.against integration, now we are no use to them at all.
On the broader point, to me brexit marks the end of the UK as a world power and this is exacerbated by trump. Our policy was to use our influence in the eu to isolate russia inalliace with usa. Now its turned upside down. Im not an expert and may be wrong, thats the way I read the situation though. Ptin will try and destroy us ie by backing the nats in scotland and look for proxy conflicts which is why I worry about the falklands
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which is why I worry about the falklandsnielh said:True finns are in power but there is no desire to leave the EU.
Even the freedom party in austria and the FN in france have no desire to quit the EU. Even Afd dont want to quit the EU. With brexit these populist parties are annoyed with us as we were a force.against integration, now we are no use to them at all.
On the broader point, to me brexit marks the end of the UK as a world power and this is exacerbated by trump. Our policy was to use our influence in the eu to isolate russia inalliace with usa. Now its turned upside down. Im not an expert and may be wrong, thats the way I read the situation though. Ptin will try and destroy us ie by backing the nats in scotland and look for proxy conflicts which is why I worry about the falklands
I'm sure the Falklands worry about you a bit too.
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The Labour Party need a mandatory retirement age for MPs. (All parties do tbf, but Labour is particularly bad)
Gerald Kaufman
Dennis Skinner
David Winnick
Paul Flynn
Ann Clwyd
Geoffrey Robinson
Barry Sheerman
Jim Cunningham
Kelvin Hopkins
Frank Field
Margaret Beckett
Ronnie Campbell
Margaret Hodge
Adrian Bailey
Kevin Barron
Kate Hoey
Ann Coffey
Roger Godsiff
David Crausby
All over 70 - the by-election risk is just too great from an actuarial perspective. [This list may be wrong, DYOR]
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I remember TB flying to Australia to do deals with Murdoch but Theresa May went on Sky to be interviewed by rising star Sophy Ridge and possibly to demonstrate to the BBC that they have no entitlement to always conduct the Prime Minster's first interview of the new yearDecrepitJohnL said:
Cynical beyond belief or old enough to remember Tony Blair flying to Australia to kowtow to Murdoch.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Agreed but you have to be cynical beyond belief to think that Theresa May did this to impress him.DecrepitJohnL said:
To be fair, Murdoch has influenced British politics going back decades on a scale Vladimir Putin can only dream of.Big_G_NorthWales said:Polly Toynbee on Sky inferring that Theresa May avoided the BBC for Sky because of Rupert Murdoch's growing interest in Sky.
The left are possessed by Rupert Murdoch
The big story is the success of Sophy Ridge and such a welcome change from Marr etc0 -
The AfD, the FN, 5* etc do want to leave the Euro though and that would destabilise the whole EU system.nielh said:
True finns are in power but there is no all.HYUFD said:
The nationalist True Finns are in a coalition government in Finlandrottenborough said:
Interestingly, Finland will hold the EU council presidency in the (potentially) crucial period July-Dec 2019.HYUFD said:
Brexit makes next to zero impact on our position as a world power, we have not been a superpower since India gained independence and we would still be a medium sized power in or outside the EU. Putin has zero interest in the Falklands and indeed the new Argentine President is far more reasonable and less bellicose over the islands than Kirchner is, that is a million miles from the Fascist junta which invaded them in 1982 (plus they are better garrisoned). Once migrants from Eastern Europe and the Balkans start to move elsewhere in Europe to states still in the EEA if the UK implements border control then you are likely to see an increase in demands for border control there toonielh said:Abbot is very unlikely to be the next labour leader but those odds are ok as a possible trading bet.
Rogers departure from the civil service is interesting. If I was in the foreign office I would be looking at other employment options of it then great ill be happy to be proved wrong
On the broader point, to me brexit marks the end
On the broader point as stated you are of course wrong for as previously stated the UK has not been a superpower since the independence of India and the end of the British Empire, attempts to use the EU to become a superpower would not make the UK a superpower on its own. The new US President openly supported Brexit before his election, post Brexit UK also has little need to concern itself with Russia, if anything Eastern European nations should be more concerned as along with France the UK provides most of Europe's defence. The nats would still lose any second referendum as all the polls show and as for the Falklands as also previously stated the new President of Argentina Mauricio Macri is a technocrat not a Fascist as was the case in 1982 and also has zero interest in starting a war with the UK his focus is on reviving the Argentine economy0 -
The Romans certainly considered that their Empire extended beyond the frontiers of the Provinces (basically, a region became a Province once it was deemed sufficiently civilised). There were client kings all around the Empire, and Roman soldiers, merchants, and officials spent extensive periods in these places. So, they were familiar with places like Nubia (now Sudan) and Abyssinia (now Ethiopia), and recruited some soldiers in these places. In all likelihood, some of them must have risen to be officers.Malmesbury said:
Ignoring the AD - BC screwup....MarqueeMark said:
That is spectacularly embarrassing!Dromedary said:I had to laugh at this bit:
"She’s an educated lady, she read History under Professor Simon Schama at the finest university in the world, The University of Cambridge."
It's an institution that's so fine that its capitalisation spreads even to a preceding definite article that doesn't start a sentence! And the message is so strong, so pure, so elevated, that even a run-on sentence can convey it!
Seriously, TSE, a person doesn't gain intellect or sense just by going to Cambridge, nor by being lectured by a royalist twat like Simon Schama, who's always known what side his bread is buttered on.
Being one of her lecturers and perhaps also a sometime supervisor for a course or two was Schama's maximum involvement in her education at Cambridge anyway. She probably had
I strongly doubt that she got a first. She may have a history degree from Cambridge - in other words, she didn't fail or drop out - but she still seems to be crap at that subject. Here's something she wrote long after she left:
"From the days when the Norman French invaded Anglo-Saxon Britain, we have been a culturally diverse nation. But because the different nationalities shared a common skin colour, it was possible to ignore the racial diversity which always existed in the British Isles. And even if you take race to mean what it is often commonly meant to imply - skin colour- there have been black people in Britain for centuries. The earliest blacks in Britain were probably black Roman centurions that came over hundreds of years before Christ."
*Professor Simon Schama starts deleting bits of his CV...starting with ever being at Cambridge.*
Honest question - would the Roman army have ever had a black Centurion? They were very racist - the.... Latin word word for those of African origin.... was used as an extreme insult (see a speech by Cicero) in the ugliest sense. But then again, the Romans, in the end, made just about anyone a citizen and the army contained every nationality they included in the Empire
Probably, some of them served in Britain. But, the numbers would have been tiny.0 -
Tube strike on as unions reject new offer from London Underground
London's Mayor Sadiq Khan has described the walkout as "pointless" and has called for unions to carry on negotiating.
http://news.sky.com/story/tube-strike-on-as-unions-reject-new-offer-from-london-underground-10722111
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Loved this footage
Dan Jackson
King Christian X on one of his solo morning rides through Copenhagen. He did this throughout the Nazi occupation of Denmark. https://t.co/2ze2vlw9vZ0 -
any marginal or semi marginal seats?Pauly said:The Labour Party need a mandatory retirement age for MPs. (All parties do tbf, but Labour is particularly bad)
Gerald Kaufman
Dennis Skinner
David Winnick
Paul Flynn
Ann Clwyd
Geoffrey Robinson
Barry Sheerman
Jim Cunningham
Kelvin Hopkins
Frank Field
Margaret Beckett
Ronnie Campbell
Margaret Hodge
Adrian Bailey
Kevin Barron
Kate Hoey
Ann Coffey
Roger Godsiff
David Crausby
All over 70 - the by-election risk is just too great from an actuarial perspective. [This list may be wrong, DYOR]0 -
At what point does Sadiq Khan take on the unions directly. I assume he has responsibility for London UndergroundMarkHopkins said:
Tube strike on as unions reject new offer from London Underground
London's Mayor Sadiq Khan has described the walkout as "pointless" and has called for unions to carry on negotiating.
http://news.sky.com/story/tube-strike-on-as-unions-reject-new-offer-from-london-underground-107221110 -
For the 4 MPs over 80...nunu said:
any marginal or semi marginal seats?Pauly said:The Labour Party need a mandatory retirement age for MPs. (All parties do tbf, but Labour is particularly bad)
Gerald Kaufman
Dennis Skinner
David Winnick
Paul Flynn
Ann Clwyd
Geoffrey Robinson
Barry Sheerman
Jim Cunningham
Kelvin Hopkins
Frank Field
Margaret Beckett
Ronnie Campbell
Margaret Hodge
Adrian Bailey
Kevin Barron
Kate Hoey
Ann Coffey
Roger Godsiff
David Crausby
All over 70 - the by-election risk is just too great from an actuarial perspective. [This list may be wrong, DYOR]
Gerald Kaufman
Dennis Skinner
David Winnick
Paul Flynn
Manchester Gorton and Bolsover are solidly safe. Walsall North and Newport West both look semi-marginal on Labour's current dire polling - totally avoidable if Labour had a sensible retirement age.0 -
"The UK cannot expect to hold on to "bits" of its membership after leaving the EU, Theresa May has said."
Damn that sounds like a very hard brexit to me.. BBC Website.0 -
He very much does, and he'll lose his popularity very quickly indeed if he does anything except oppose transport strikes in the strongest terms possible.Big_G_NorthWales said:
At what point does Sadiq Khan take on the unions directly. I assume he has responsibility for London UndergroundMarkHopkins said:
Tube strike on as unions reject new offer from London Underground
London's Mayor Sadiq Khan has described the walkout as "pointless" and has called for unions to carry on negotiating.
http://news.sky.com/story/tube-strike-on-as-unions-reject-new-offer-from-london-underground-107221110 -
No - a different relationship. The one thing is clear we are taking back control of our borders and laws which I suspect will have majority supportnunu said:"The UK cannot expect to hold on to "bits" of its membership after leaving the EU, Theresa May has said."
Damn that sounds like a very hard brexit to me.. BBC Website.0 -
I think you are right that the policy was to isolate Russia.
On the broader point, to me brexit marks the end of the UK as a world power and this is exacerbated by trump. Our policy was to use our influence in the eu to isolate russia inalliace with usa. Now its turned upside down. Im not an expert and may be wrong, thats the way I read the situation though. Ptin will try and destroy us ie by backing the nats in scotland and look for proxy conflicts which is why I worry about the falklands
I have no idea why that makes (or even made) any sense, post Cold War.
An Eu stretching through the Ukraine to the borders of Russia seems much more likely to engulf the whole of Eastern Europe in chaos than anything else.
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It sounds like leaving the EU and having a new friendlier, looser relationship with them, and most critically the 7bn people and 88% of the global economy that isn't little Europe.nunu said:"The UK cannot expect to hold on to "bits" of its membership after leaving the EU, Theresa May has said."
Damn that sounds like a very hard brexit to me.. BBC Website.
Excellent.0 -
I'm happy,but it looks like we won't be staying in the single market but will have full control of the borders.chestnut said:
It sounds like leaving the EU and having a new friendlier, looser relationship with them, and most critically the 7bn people and 88% of the global economy that isn't little Europe.nunu said:"The UK cannot expect to hold on to "bits" of its membership after leaving the EU, Theresa May has said."
Damn that sounds like a very hard brexit to me.. BBC Website.
Excellent.0 -
What was it our Canadian friend said?chestnut said:
It sounds like leaving the EU and having a new friendlier, looser relationship with them, and most critically the 7bn people and 88% of the global economy that isn't little Europe.nunu said:"The UK cannot expect to hold on to "bits" of its membership after leaving the EU, Theresa May has said."
Damn that sounds like a very hard brexit to me.. BBC Website.
Excellent.
While they have always been pleasant (and notably friendly towards Canada), my view is that they remain in campaign mode.
Were they willing to realistically discuss options for Brexit, as opposed to telling you what they intend to do in a very general sense while dismissing the obvious concerns, they may have a chance to minimise the damage from the potentially catastrophic decision to leave.
Sounds very much like your attitude.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/08/trade-negotiator-shocked-at-brexiters-ignorance0 -
Yep - we are removing ourselves from the market 44% of our exports go to and hoping that the damage this will do will be offset by trade agreements we can finalise with other countries who will know how desperate we are. Should be fun.chestnut said:
It sounds like leaving the EU and having a new friendlier, looser relationship with them, and most critically the 7bn people and 88% of the global economy that isn't little Europe.nunu said:"The UK cannot expect to hold on to "bits" of its membership after leaving the EU, Theresa May has said."
Damn that sounds like a very hard brexit to me.. BBC Website.
Excellent.
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He has done that.Sandpit said:
He very much does, and he'll lose his popularity very quickly indeed if he does anything except oppose transport strikes in the strongest terms possible.Big_G_NorthWales said:
At what point does Sadiq Khan take on the unions directly. I assume he has responsibility for London UndergroundMarkHopkins said:
Tube strike on as unions reject new offer from London Underground
London's Mayor Sadiq Khan has described the walkout as "pointless" and has called for unions to carry on negotiating.
http://news.sky.com/story/tube-strike-on-as-unions-reject-new-offer-from-london-underground-10722111
0 -
SouthamObserver said:
Yep - we are removing ourselves from the market 44% of our exports go to and hoping that the damage this will do will be offset by trade agreements we can finalise with other countries who will know how desperate we are. Should be fun.chestnut said:
It sounds like leaving the EU and having a new friendlier, looser relationship with them, and most critically the 7bn people and 88% of the global economy that isn't little Europe.nunu said:"The UK cannot expect to hold on to "bits" of its membership after leaving the EU, Theresa May has said."
Damn that sounds like a very hard brexit to me.. BBC Website.
Excellent.
We have more imports than exports to the EU, so that's something that can be handled by itself.
Other countries are a bonus.
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So 56% of our exports now go outside the EU not forgetting of course we will not cease trading with the EU regardless of what happensSouthamObserver said:
Yep - we are removing ourselves from the market 44% of our exports go to and hoping that the damage this will do will be offset by trade agreements we can finalise with other countries who will know how desperate we are. Should be fun.chestnut said:
It sounds like leaving the EU and having a new friendlier, looser relationship with them, and most critically the 7bn people and 88% of the global economy that isn't little Europe.nunu said:"The UK cannot expect to hold on to "bits" of its membership after leaving the EU, Theresa May has said."
Damn that sounds like a very hard brexit to me.. BBC Website.
Excellent.0 -
But while we have lots of other options around the world, the EU has absolutely nowhere to go to plug any trade gap left by a departing UK. Remember that...SouthamObserver said:
Yep - we are removing ourselves from the market 44% of our exports go to and hoping that the damage this will do will be offset by trade agreements we can finalise with other countries who will know how desperate we are. Should be fun.chestnut said:
It sounds like leaving the EU and having a new friendlier, looser relationship with them, and most critically the 7bn people and 88% of the global economy that isn't little Europe.nunu said:"The UK cannot expect to hold on to "bits" of its membership after leaving the EU, Theresa May has said."
Damn that sounds like a very hard brexit to me.. BBC Website.
Excellent.0 -
Yes, they are going there already. We will not cease trading with the EU, but it will become more costly and less time efficient.HYUFD said:
So 56% of our exports now go outside the EU not forgetting of course we will not cease trading with the EU regardless of what happensSouthamObserver said:
Yep - we are removing ourselves from the market 44% of our exports go to and hoping that the damage this will do will be offset by trade agreements we can finalise with other countries who will know how desperate we are. Should be fun.chestnut said:
It sounds like leaving the EU and having a new friendlier, looser relationship with them, and most critically the 7bn people and 88% of the global economy that isn't little Europe.nunu said:"The UK cannot expect to hold on to "bits" of its membership after leaving the EU, Theresa May has said."
Damn that sounds like a very hard brexit to me.. BBC Website.
Excellent.
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It looks like Theresa May is going to tell the EU we are leaving lock stock and barrel and is calling their bluff over trade.SouthamObserver said:
Yep - we are removing ourselves from the market 44% of our exports go to and hoping that the damage this will do will be offset by trade agreements we can finalise with other countries who will know how desperate we are. Should be fun.chestnut said:
It sounds like leaving the EU and having a new friendlier, looser relationship with them, and most critically the 7bn people and 88% of the global economy that isn't little Europe.nunu said:"The UK cannot expect to hold on to "bits" of its membership after leaving the EU, Theresa May has said."
Damn that sounds like a very hard brexit to me.. BBC Website.
Excellent.
It is a clear position and will put various EU countries against each other as they begin to realise the trade they are going to lose and the unemployment they will experience.
This is a very bold strategy and if TM pulls this off she will become one of our greatest PM's0 -
Businesses will do what's right for them, whatever the deal, whichever side of the channel they sit on.SouthamObserver said:
Yep - we are removing ourselves from the market 44% of our exports go to and hoping that the damage this will do will be offset by trade agreements we can finalise with other countries who will know how desperate we are. Should be fun.chestnut said:
It sounds like leaving the EU and having a new friendlier, looser relationship with them, and most critically the 7bn people and 88% of the global economy that isn't little Europe.nunu said:"The UK cannot expect to hold on to "bits" of its membership after leaving the EU, Theresa May has said."
Damn that sounds like a very hard brexit to me.. BBC Website.
Excellent.
The vast majority of our trade and business is not with the EU - it's domestic and global.
Life will go on. Trade will still happen. Just as it already does.
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Well if the EU will not make any compromise on border control so be it, May has a mandate from the Leave vote and she will deliver on itSouthamObserver said:
Yes, they are going there already. We will not cease trading with the EU, but it will become more costly and less time efficient.HYUFD said:
So 56% of our exports now go outside the EU not forgetting of course we will not cease trading with the EU regardless of what happensSouthamObserver said:
Yep - we are removing ourselves from the market 44% of our exports go to and hoping that the damage this will do will be offset by trade agreements we can finalise with other countries who will know how desperate we are. Should be fun.chestnut said:
It sounds like leaving the EU and having a new friendlier, looser relationship with them, and most critically the 7bn people and 88% of the global economy that isn't little Europe.nunu said:"The UK cannot expect to hold on to "bits" of its membership after leaving the EU, Theresa May has said."
Damn that sounds like a very hard brexit to me.. BBC Website.
Excellent.0 -
Somewhere in Europe someone is saying exactly the same thing as you -but with UK replacing the EU in the sentence.SouthamObserver said:
Yes, they are going there already. We will not cease trading with the EU, but it will become more costly and less time efficient.HYUFD said:
So 56% of our exports now go outside the EU not forgetting of course we will not cease trading with the EU regardless of what happensSouthamObserver said:
Yep - we are removing ourselves from the market 44% of our exports go to and hoping that the damage this will do will be offset by trade agreements we can finalise with other countries who will know how desperate we are. Should be fun.chestnut said:
It sounds like leaving the EU and having a new friendlier, looser relationship with them, and most critically the 7bn people and 88% of the global economy that isn't little Europe.nunu said:"The UK cannot expect to hold on to "bits" of its membership after leaving the EU, Theresa May has said."
Damn that sounds like a very hard brexit to me.. BBC Website.
Excellent.
0
