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Fascinating discussion.
Brexit is in a lot of ways a revolution. The problem is that the leaders of the revolution dont have any idea about how to deliver it. they have made promises but dont have people around them who are committed to the project and the institutions of the state appear to be working against them..
All the intellectual class is very sceptical about brexit. Law, journalism, civil service, management consultants etc. no one credible outside of government is offering to step forward to help with the difficult work in making it happen.
It will end up with politicians trying to pin the blame for their own mistakes on someone else and the civil service is always first in line.
The broader issue is that outside of political circles the wider public dont really care about brexit. No one wants to die for brexit. No one even wants to lose twenty quid a week over brexit.
In the end the revolution probably lacks support to get through the problems ahead
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SeanT said:
HELP: I need a pretty, posh-ish, 3 syllable surname for a thriller character, maybe sounding a bit French, not beginning with K or P or R
Something like Delacourt, but not quite as poncey, but still a bit poncey.
Hope I'm not too late ..... I'd like to suggest Mullineaux, my mother's maiden name.0 -
You can add me to the list of people who do not respect the referendum result. I accept the process was lawful - but that is all. I think the result is disastrous for Britain and for many of the people who mistakenly voted Leave. Why on earth would I respect it?Yorkcity said:Surbiton if you are supporting anyone who will wreck Brexit, it is difficult to see who that will be.They all say they respect the referendum result even if it was advisory .Maybe Nicola Sturgeon and Sadiq Khan have a mandate to influence how we leave.
Look up the dictionary definition of "respect". It involves admiration or honour.0 -
Good luck with it. You'll get through it!SeanT said:Plotting a book, mapping the characters, building the blueprint for the narrative, is unbelievably knackering. Much more so than actual writing. Which is why writers who plot really well get paid lots of money, and writers who can't plot but can write nice sentences, earn a lot less.
Do you believe a novelist who says they don't plot their works in advance? I've long had my doubts.
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@Barnesian, @Nielh If we'd voted to remain and the gov't was implementing article 50 what would you say about that ?0
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Suppliers of recycled crushed concrete have been trying the same scam.Pulpstar said:
Our dust mat supplier at work was trying to blame a price rise on Brexit !Williamz said:Apparently brexit has stopped people buying shit t-shirts frim Next. People are truly stupid if you can think that is true.
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I'd vaguely remembered there was some Oscar Wilde connection with the name Maturin, and looking it up he had a relation-in-law named Maturin (another writer) from an Irish family of Huguenot descent. If it wasn't already notably taken, Maturin might have done for seant's character.Omnium said:@Theuniondivvie
That's the way I've always assumed too. But it might be 'Mat-Chur-An', and frankly who knows. Doesn't matter, but SeanT's point about people being able to mentally say the names of the people they read about has to be spot on. Our friend Maturin is a fervent Catalan too - I imagine he'd care.0 -
@pulpstar not sure I get your question
I agree that the govt has to go ahead with leaving the eu because this was reflected in the vote result. But the last six months have been a disaster. Boris johnson and liam fox are a total joke.
I think theresa may is doing what she can but has a major problem with her party0 -
I'd do all in my power to stop it whether we had voted to remain or leave. Makes no difference.Pulpstar said:@Barnesian, @Nielh If we'd voted to remain and the gov't was implementing article 50 what would you say about that ?
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If Corbyn was to be elected in GE2020 I wouldn't much like the result but I wouldn't try and prevent it...0
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Barnaby,while looking up the definition of respect,look up ''tough sh!t''.Barnesian said:
You can add me to the list of people who do not respect the referendum result. I accept the process was lawful - but that is all. I think the result is disastrous for Britain and for many of the people who mistakenly voted Leave. Why on earth would I respect it?Yorkcity said:Surbiton if you are supporting anyone who will wreck Brexit, it is difficult to see who that will be.They all say they respect the referendum result even if it was advisory .Maybe Nicola Sturgeon and Sadiq Khan have a mandate to influence how we leave.
Look up the dictionary definition of "respect". It involves admiration or honour.0 -
That's very different. It's a constitutional question, not just a matter of someone occupying a job for a limited period of time.Pulpstar said:If Corbyn was to be elected in GE2020 I wouldn't much like the result but I wouldn't try and prevent it...
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In what way, have the last six months been disastrous?nielh said:@pulpstar not sure I get your question
I agree that the govt has to go ahead with leaving the eu because this was reflected in the vote result. But the last six months have been a disaster. Boris johnson and liam fox are a total joke.
I think theresa may is doing what she can but has a major problem with her party
You, William Glenn, Bromptonaut, Alistair Meeks and the other hardline Remainers, are simply asking us to take on trust that terrible things are happening or will happen due to Brexit. But, where's the evidence?0 -
It's good that you're familiar with the definition, because it reflects my feelings about your unhappiness with the eventual failure of Brexit to be delivered.Tykejohnno said:
Barnaby,while looking up the definition of respect,look up ''tough sh!t''.Barnesian said:
You can add me to the list of people who do not respect the referendum result. I accept the process was lawful - but that is all. I think the result is disastrous for Britain and for many of the people who mistakenly voted Leave. Why on earth would I respect it?Yorkcity said:Surbiton if you are supporting anyone who will wreck Brexit, it is difficult to see who that will be.They all say they respect the referendum result even if it was advisory .Maybe Nicola Sturgeon and Sadiq Khan have a mandate to influence how we leave.
Look up the dictionary definition of "respect". It involves admiration or honour.0 -
What a coincidence it will be if much of the British mandarinate walks out in a huff and many civil service jobs get filled with new faces at almost exactly the same time that about 4000 new political appointees take office in Washington DC.
It was bad enough when British prime ministers started getting "chiefs of staff" and "foreign policy advisers" and Britain acquired a "supreme court".0 -
I also agree that the govt feels it has to go ahead with leaving the EU but it's not because they or MPs respect the result. I'm sure most don't. They mistakenly feel they have to say that to avoid a march on London with people with pitchforks or a repeat of the poll tax riots. The only point of democracy is avoid violent revolution when a majority want political change. But this is a very small majority, there is very little danger of a violent revolution that can't be easily put down, and if Parliament think Brexit is a bad idea they should say so and face the consequences (which would mainly hit the Tory party which is why they won't do it.)nielh said:@pulpstar not sure I get your question
I agree that the govt has to go ahead with leaving the eu because this was reflected in the vote result. But the last six months have been a disaster. Boris johnson and liam fox are a total joke.
I think theresa may is doing what she can but has a major problem with her party0 -
From here on in it's going to be difficult to convince voters that any bad news isn't the result of Brexit just as in Daily-Mail land everything used to be the fault of the EU. The boot is most assuredly on the other now and our fickle electorate is not noted for its forensic analysis of the economic facts.Big_G_NorthWales said:
My wife has shopped at M & S all her life and she says it is dying on its feet. The idea that everything is Brexit fault is absurd and the demise of the High Street is not Brexit related. It's been going on for years, remember WoolworthsThe_Taxman said:Big_G_NorthWales
The problem for the retailers is the lag time. This is just the start of what is going to hit the UK high street. Retailers buy months in advance and so you don't see the price rises for a period of time after an economic shock. The depreciation of sterling is an economic shock, the beneficial effects in terms of manufacturer competitiveness will not outweigh the detrimental economic effects of higher import costs i.e. fuel, raw materials and the like. So, this hoping everything will turn out alright by BREXIT supporters is misguided, indeed it is delusional.
My hope for the UK is Corbyn gets turfed out and Labour get a sensible leader to replace him. Even better would be a Labour /LD coalition that stops this BREXIT madness before real long-term trouble hits the economy.0 -
@Theuniondivvie, @SeanT - well, at the very least this forthcoming novel has a degree of expectation. Wilde, O'Brian - that's decent company. Write well Mr T!
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I think the question should probably be asked every 35 years or so. But the gov't simply must implement this result.williamglenn said:
That's very different. It's a constitutional question, not just a matter of someone occupying a job for a limited period of time.Pulpstar said:If Corbyn was to be elected in GE2020 I wouldn't much like the result but I wouldn't try and prevent it...
Incidentally I think there are not so many MPs that can vote against the result. Any MP that voted for the referendum, and whose constituency voted to leave is pretty much duty bound to run with the result. The only exceptions I can think of off the top of my head are Olney (A clear Richmond mandate), Ken Clarke - didn't for the EU-ref and the SNP MPs (Scotland voted to Remain and their line on independence is clear enough).
Farron and Soubry iirc voted for the referendum, perhaps a bit foolish for them to go against the result particularly Soubry as Broxtowe voted to leave iirc.
Just some MPs with different levels of moral authority on this I think..0 -
Wouldn't you try to frustrate his policies if you disagreed with them by lobbying MPs, petitions, marches, 38 degrees, even if he got a majority? I think that is entirely legitimate. Surely you wouldn't just roll over and say you respect the will of the people? We're not talking about doing a Guy Fawkes.Pulpstar said:If Corbyn was to be elected in GE2020 I wouldn't much like the result but I wouldn't try and prevent it...
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While I suspect we agree on a great many things, on this we do not.Barnesian said:
I'd do all in my power to stop it whether we had voted to remain or leave. Makes no difference.
Democracy is a harsh mistress - I define a majority as the largest number of people wrong about a given issue at a given time as I am so often in a minority. Doesn't mean I'm right but nor does it mean the majority is either.
Unfortunately, however, since we all have one vote each (and rightly so), the largest number "wins". It doesn't matter the other side might have "won" a week earlier or a week later - it's the balance of votes on that day.
LEAVE means the process of leaving the EU and that means A50. We cannot and must not try to circumvent the process by trying to cry foul or resorting to legal chicanery - a debate was had (a poor debate by any standard but there you go) and a decision was taken.
The consequence of the A50 negotiation will be a new treaty or series of treaties which will define Britain's economic relationship with the EU (and in many respects, the rest of the world) for the 2020s and beyond. That's important - that needs proper debate, proper scrutiny and proper analysis not hidden away in a partisan General Election but the subject of a vote.
I happen to think the destination is more important than agreeing to go down the road.0 -
Until the SC decision we don't know what 'voting against the result' looks like. It's all hypothetical at this point, and it's unlikely to be as clear-cut as a brief enabling bill.Pulpstar said:Incidentally I think there are not so many MPs that can vote against the result. Any MP that voted for the referendum, and whose constituency voted to leave is pretty much duty bound to run with the result. The only exceptions I can think of off the top of my head are Olney (A clear Richmond mandate), Ken Clarke - didn't for the EU-ref and the SNP MPs (Scotland voted to Remain and their line on independence is clear enough).
Farron and Soubry iirc voted for the referendum, perhaps a bit foolish for them to go against the result particularly Soubry as Broxtowe voted to leave iirc.
Just some MPs with different levels of moral authority on this I think..0 -
Absolute majorities of the British public think that the government is handling Brexit badly, that the country is more divided, unhappier and more racist than a year ago. They seem convinced by the evidence even if you aren't..Sean_F said:
In what way, have the last six months been disastrous?nielh said:@pulpstar not sure I get your question
I agree that the govt has to go ahead with leaving the eu because this was reflected in the vote result. But the last six months have been a disaster. Boris johnson and liam fox are a total joke.
I think theresa may is doing what she can but has a major problem with her party
You, William Glenn, Bromptonaut, Alistair Meeks and the other hardline Remainers, are simply asking us to take on trust that terrible things are happening or will happen due to Brexit. But, where's the evidence?0 -
One can't trust opinion polls to that level of certainty I'm afraid.AlastairMeeks said:
Absolute majorities of the British public think that the government is handling Brexit badly, that the country is more divided, unhappier and more racist than a year ago. They seem convinced by the evidence even if you aren't..Sean_F said:
In what way, have the last six months been disastrous?nielh said:@pulpstar not sure I get your question
I agree that the govt has to go ahead with leaving the eu because this was reflected in the vote result. But the last six months have been a disaster. Boris johnson and liam fox are a total joke.
I think theresa may is doing what she can but has a major problem with her party
You, William Glenn, Bromptonaut, Alistair Meeks and the other hardline Remainers, are simply asking us to take on trust that terrible things are happening or will happen due to Brexit. But, where's the evidence?
People only say what they really think come actual elections.0 -
A majority of the British public voted Leave on a 75% turnout, May has a 15% lead over Labour in the latest yougov, does not look like much dissatisfaction to me0
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The last time people saw Boris Johnson telling them to vote for something he said June 23rd would be our 'independence day'. They'll punish him and his band of Brexiteers severely if they're proven to have been selling snake oil.Pulpstar said:
One can't trust opinion polls to that level of certainty I'm afraid.AlastairMeeks said:
Absolute majorities of the British public think that the government is handling Brexit badly, that the country is more divided, unhappier and more racist than a year ago. They seem convinced by the evidence even if you aren't..Sean_F said:
In what way, have the last six months been disastrous?nielh said:@pulpstar not sure I get your question
I agree that the govt has to go ahead with leaving the eu because this was reflected in the vote result. But the last six months have been a disaster. Boris johnson and liam fox are a total joke.
I think theresa may is doing what she can but has a major problem with her party
You, William Glenn, Bromptonaut, Alistair Meeks and the other hardline Remainers, are simply asking us to take on trust that terrible things are happening or will happen due to Brexit. But, where's the evidence?
People only say what they really think come actual elections.0 -
I'd see what I could do once he'd visited the Queen, but I wouldn't attempt to stop him taking the trip to Buckingham Palace.Barnesian said:
Wouldn't you try to frustrate his policies if you disagreed with them by lobbying MPs, petitions, marches, 38 degrees, even if he got a majority? I think that is entirely legitimate. Surely you wouldn't just roll over and say you respect the will of the people? We're not talking about doing a Guy Fawkes.Pulpstar said:If Corbyn was to be elected in GE2020 I wouldn't much like the result but I wouldn't try and prevent it...
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You seem to think that the UK can continue to consume £100bn of wealth beyond what it creates per annum permanently.The_Taxman said:Big_G_NorthWales
The problem for the retailers is the lag time. This is just the start of what is going to hit the UK high street. Retailers buy months in advance and so you don't see the price rises for a period of time after an economic shock. The depreciation of sterling is an economic shock, the beneficial effects in terms of manufacturer competitiveness will not outweigh the detrimental economic effects of higher import costs i.e. fuel, raw materials and the like. So, this hoping everything will turn out alright by BREXIT supporters is misguided, indeed it is delusional.
My hope for the UK is Corbyn gets turfed out and Labour get a sensible leader to replace him. Even better would be a Labour /LD coalition that stops this BREXIT madness before real long-term trouble hits the economy.
Sterling's fall is necessary to rebalance the economy and attempts to delay that, as you seem to want, only makes for more pain in the end.0 -
@Pulpstar
It seems to me that every MP at the time of the referendum vote (i.e. the vote to have one) is pretty much obliged to go along with the verdict that was delivered in that vote. To do otherwise seems to me to compromise in much bigger ways. Some sort of minimal delivery has to be delivered, and that now boils down to article 50.
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None of these were close margins. The balance of public opinion in the relevant polls on all of these was very clear cut, which is what makes them so striking.Pulpstar said:
One can't trust opinion polls to that level of certainty I'm afraid.AlastairMeeks said:
Absolute majorities of the British public think that the government is handling Brexit badly, that the country is more divided, unhappier and more racist than a year ago. They seem convinced by the evidence even if you aren't..Sean_F said:
In what way, have the last six months been disastrous?nielh said:@pulpstar not sure I get your question
I agree that the govt has to go ahead with leaving the eu because this was reflected in the vote result. But the last six months have been a disaster. Boris johnson and liam fox are a total joke.
I think theresa may is doing what she can but has a major problem with her party
You, William Glenn, Bromptonaut, Alistair Meeks and the other hardline Remainers, are simply asking us to take on trust that terrible things are happening or will happen due to Brexit. But, where's the evidence?
People only say what they really think come actual elections.0 -
There is none of course., They are ignoring anything good that happens and pretending anything bad is the result of Brexit. It is a thoroughly dishonest position and exactly what I expected of the hard line Remainiacs.Sean_F said:
In what way, have the last six months been disastrous?nielh said:@pulpstar not sure I get your question
I agree that the govt has to go ahead with leaving the eu because this was reflected in the vote result. But the last six months have been a disaster. Boris johnson and liam fox are a total joke.
I think theresa may is doing what she can but has a major problem with her party
You, William Glenn, Bromptonaut, Alistair Meeks and the other hardline Remainers, are simply asking us to take on trust that terrible things are happening or will happen due to Brexit. But, where's the evidence?0 -
I see there was an 83% increase in Eurozone inflation last month:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38507368
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That's understandable. The unwillingness of a vocal minority to accept a democratic vote with anything even vaguely resembling good grace and dignity has angered many of us.AlastairMeeks said:
Absolute majorities of the British public think that the government is handling Brexit badly, that the country is more divided, unhappier and more racist than a year ago. They seem convinced by the evidence even if you aren't..Sean_F said:
In what way, have the last six months been disastrous?nielh said:@pulpstar not sure I get your question
I agree that the govt has to go ahead with leaving the eu because this was reflected in the vote result. But the last six months have been a disaster. Boris johnson and liam fox are a total joke.
I think theresa may is doing what she can but has a major problem with her party
You, William Glenn, Bromptonaut, Alistair Meeks and the other hardline Remainers, are simply asking us to take on trust that terrible things are happening or will happen due to Brexit. But, where's the evidence?-1 -
Support for "remain" was very clear cut a good while before the vote took place. It didn't look particularly close - but there is no vote at the moment, there'll be a good deal of respondent bias etc in the polls at the moment from remainers.AlastairMeeks said:
None of these were close margins. The balance of public opinion in the relevant polls on all of these was very clear cut, which is what makes them so striking.Pulpstar said:
One can't trust opinion polls to that level of certainty I'm afraid.AlastairMeeks said:
Absolute majorities of the British public think that the government is handling Brexit badly, that the country is more divided, unhappier and more racist than a year ago. They seem convinced by the evidence even if you aren't..Sean_F said:
In what way, have the last six months been disastrous?nielh said:@pulpstar not sure I get your question
I agree that the govt has to go ahead with leaving the eu because this was reflected in the vote result. But the last six months have been a disaster. Boris johnson and liam fox are a total joke.
I think theresa may is doing what she can but has a major problem with her party
You, William Glenn, Bromptonaut, Alistair Meeks and the other hardline Remainers, are simply asking us to take on trust that terrible things are happening or will happen due to Brexit. But, where's the evidence?
People only say what they really think come actual elections.
I recall that OGH bemoaned those that found the EU/Europe a very salient issue in the Moris about 2 years back. I remember thinking and saying at the time that if we ever left then the numbers finding the EU/Europe a prescient issue would be the same, but they certainly wouldn't be the same people that found it a prescient issue back then !0 -
@another_richard
Have you considered a career sweeping up? There are always opportunities for people with you grasp of the details in such work.
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Surely no gentleman works at all.slade said:
How about Delaval - there is a Seaton Delaval near Newcastle. Also I had a professor at Durham called Charles Vereker. Sounds foreign - orginally Dutch I think. He had aristocracy in the family - said no gentleman began work before 10am.SeanT said:HELP: I need a pretty, posh-ish, 3 syllable surname for a thriller character, maybe sounding a bit French, not beginning with K or P or R
Something like Delacourt, but not quite as poncey, but still a bit poncey.0 -
What is quaint, and a bit pathetic, is the belief that Brexit would be so much easier if only we all had faith in it.chestnut said:
That's understandable. The unwillingness to accept a democratic vote has angered many of us.AlastairMeeks said:
Absolute majorities of the British public think that the government is handling Brexit badly, that the country is more divided, unhappier and more racist than a year ago. They seem convinced by the evidence even if you aren't..Sean_F said:
In what way, have the last six months been disastrous?nielh said:@pulpstar not sure I get your question
I agree that the govt has to go ahead with leaving the eu because this was reflected in the vote result. But the last six months have been a disaster. Boris johnson and liam fox are a total joke.
I think theresa may is doing what she can but has a major problem with her party
You, William Glenn, Bromptonaut, Alistair Meeks and the other hardline Remainers, are simply asking us to take on trust that terrible things are happening or will happen due to Brexit. But, where's the evidence?0 -
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Thanks for the suggestion.Omnium said:@another_richard
Have you considered a career sweeping up? There are always opportunities for people with you grasp of the details in such work.
I'd like to respond further but first I'd have to understand what point you were trying to make.
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The sudden devaluation of sterling will have both positive and negative consequences over time.Sean_F said:
In what way, have the last six months been disastrous?
You, William Glenn, Bromptonaut, Alistair Meeks and the other hardline Remainers, are simply asking us to take on trust that terrible things are happening or will happen due to Brexit. But, where's the evidence?
I do think a lot of people thought if we voted LEAVE, A50 would be triggered on June 24th as per a well-considered and planned contingency.
The fact nothing has happened (as most people would see it) over the past six months has come as a relief. To the extent we have seen individuals and families having a final splurge and enjoying themselves before, as they see it, harder times, has manifested itself in economic activity across the board.
Yet, as I remarked earlier, fuel prices are on the rise and that directly affects us all.
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I agree with the various points made, including this one, on accepting the legality of the result of an Election, - even if you disagree with it and subsequently try to frustrate the victor.Pulpstar said:
I'd see what I could do once he'd visited the Queen, but I wouldn't attempt to stop him taking the trip to Buckingham Palace.Barnesian said:
Wouldn't you try to frustrate his policies if you disagreed with them by lobbying MPs, petitions, marches, 38 degrees, even if he got a majority? I think that is entirely legitimate. Surely you wouldn't just roll over and say you respect the will of the people? We're not talking about doing a Guy Fawkes.Pulpstar said:If Corbyn was to be elected in GE2020 I wouldn't much like the result but I wouldn't try and prevent it...
My problem is with an advisory referendum in a representative democracy. I give much higher moral authority to those MPs who vote the way they think is in the country's and their constituents' best interests even if it means putting their own jobs on the line because a majority of their constituents disagree with them.0 -
I didn't catch your answer to the question about whether you wished a Britain independent of the EU to fail.williamglenn said:
What is quaint, and a bit pathetic, is the belief that Brexit would be so much easier if only we all had faith in it.chestnut said:
That's understandable. The unwillingness to accept a democratic vote has angered many of us.AlastairMeeks said:
Absolute majorities of the British public think that the government is handling Brexit badly, that the country is more divided, unhappier and more racist than a year ago. They seem convinced by the evidence even if you aren't..Sean_F said:
In what way, have the last six months been disastrous?nielh said:@pulpstar not sure I get your question
I agree that the govt has to go ahead with leaving the eu because this was reflected in the vote result. But the last six months have been a disaster. Boris johnson and liam fox are a total joke.
I think theresa may is doing what she can but has a major problem with her party
You, William Glenn, Bromptonaut, Alistair Meeks and the other hardline Remainers, are simply asking us to take on trust that terrible things are happening or will happen due to Brexit. But, where's the evidence?0 -
Thread after thread was written telling us no one cared about the EU. When I said they cared about the issues the EU were heavily involved in, I was argued with until the cows came homePulpstar said:
Support for "remain" was very clear cut a good while before the vote took place. It didn't look particularly close - but there is no vote at the moment, there'll be a good deal of respondent bias etc in the polls at the moment from remainers.AlastairMeeks said:
None of these were close margins. The balance of public opinion in the relevant polls on all of these was very clear cut, which is what makes them so striking.Pulpstar said:
One can't trust opinion polls to that level of certainty I'm afraid.AlastairMeeks said:
Absolute majorities of the British public think that the government is handling Brexit badly, that the country is more divided, unhappier and more racist than a year ago. They seem convinced by the evidence even if you aren't..Sean_F said:
In what way, have the last six months been disastrous?nielh said:@pulpstar not sure I get your question
I agree that the govt has to go ahead with leaving the eu because this was reflected in the vote result. But the last six months have been a disaster. Boris johnson and liam fox are a total joke.
I think theresa may is doing what she can but has a major problem with her party
You, William Glenn, Bromptonaut, Alistair Meeks and the other hardline Remainers, are simply asking us to take on trust that terrible things are happening or will happen due to Brexit. But, where's the evidence?
People only say what they really think come actual elections.
I recall that OGH bemoaned those that found the EU/Europe a very salient issue in the Moris about 2 years back. I remember thinking and saying at the time that if we ever left then the numbers finding the EU/Europe a prescient issue would be the same, but they certainly wouldn't be the same people that found it a prescient issue back then !0 -
Nobody is ignoring anything. There's a government department dedicated to seeing it through. The whole of the rest of this parliament will be dominated by making it happen.SeanT said:
You really honestly believe that the British government should simply ignore a referendum result, because it doesn't like it?Barnesian said:
I also agree that the govt feels it has to go ahead with leaving the EU but it's not because they or MPs respect the result. I'm sure most don't. They mistakenly feel they have to say that to avoid a march on London with people with pitchforks or a repeat of the poll tax riots. The only point of democracy is avoid violent revolution when a majority want political change. But this is a very small majority, there is very little danger of a violent revolution that can't be easily put down, and if Parliament think Brexit is a bad idea they should say so and face the consequences (which would mainly hit the Tory party which is why they won't do it.)nielh said:@pulpstar not sure I get your question
I agree that the govt has to go ahead with leaving the eu because this was reflected in the vote result. But the last six months have been a disaster. Boris johnson and liam fox are a total joke.
I think theresa may is doing what she can but has a major problem with her party
When it eventually fails, it won't be because the referendum result was ignored, but because the referendum result was undeliverable. We've been set up for a national humiliation by a delusional cult.0 -
Perhaps people voted leave knowing there would be complications and some turbulence - yet, even so they judged it for the best over time, and they weren't driven by their wallets.williamglenn said:
What is quaint, and a bit pathetic, is the belief that Brexit would be so much easier if only we all had faith in it.
Many of the most zealous remainer comments are all very reminiscent of the complaints about 'austerity' from 2010.
"The frightful nature of it all; the people don't understand; let's march, have a petition; take it to court to block it; just wait, in time they will see they are all wrong."
And then five years later, what happened? The same will happen here.
Sometimes, the public simply know that things cannot go on the way they have.0 -
The problem is, Mr Nielh, that the whole referendum project was set up and managed by leading Conservatives, who have not been able to agree among themselves what they wanted for the country. One side of the referendum was headed by leading Conservatives, the other also by leading Conservatives. These two groups fixed the agenda for the referendum.nielh said:@pulpstar not sure I get your question
I agree that the govt has to go ahead with leaving the eu because this was reflected in the vote result. But the last six months have been a disaster. Boris johnson and liam fox are a total joke. I think theresa may is doing what she can but has a major problem with her party
Since it was fought and decided in Conservative terms, the county is deemed to have either gone along with "the interests of big business are supreme" and therefore Remain; or "we are Little Englanders and we don`t care" and therefore Leave.
Most people in this country are not Conservatives - still less when the Conservative group is so horribly divided.
There are lots of positions in between the two groups of Conservative extremists. As is their custom, they are trying to polarise the country. In this case, between one version of Conservatism and another. No wonder Mrs May keeps dithering, and refuses to show her hand. The vote result? There wasn`t one.0 -
For some people democracy only has merit as long as it produces the results they want.SeanT said:
You really honestly believe that the British government should simply ignore a referendum result, because it doesn't like it?Barnesian said:
I also agree that the govt feels it has to go ahead with leaving the EU but it's not because they or MPs respect the result. I'm sure most don't. They mistakenly feel they have to say that to avoid a march on London with people with pitchforks or a repeat of the poll tax riots. The only point of democracy is avoid violent revolution when a majority want political change. But this is a very small majority, there is very little danger of a violent revolution that can't be easily put down, and if Parliament think Brexit is a bad idea they should say so and face the consequences (which would mainly hit the Tory party which is why they won't do it.)nielh said:@pulpstar not sure I get your question
I agree that the govt has to go ahead with leaving the eu because this was reflected in the vote result. But the last six months have been a disaster. Boris johnson and liam fox are a total joke.
I think theresa may is doing what she can but has a major problem with her party
MPs voted for a referendum. The government sent out information to EVERY home saying "This is your decision, we the government will implement it"
And, ultimately, David Cameron made this speech
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRowLjb0x48
"It will be your decision. Nobody else's. Not politicians. Not mine. It's yours. You the British people. You will decide. This is a huge decision. And it will be the final decision. If we vote to Leave then we will Leave."
Going back on all this would cause riots. You are crazy. Your position is dangerous and immoral.
If it doesn't then it can be dispensed with and replaced by oligarchy or dictatorship.
This can be seen currently in many third world countries and on occasions in past European history.
It really isn't surprising that some people also have that mentality in Britain.0 -
"Having a second renegotiation followed by a second referendum is not on the ballot paper. If the British people vote to leave, there is only one way to bring that about, namely to trigger article 50 of the treaties and begin the process of exit, and the British people would rightly expect that to start straight away.” - D CameronSeanT said:
You really honestly believe that the British government should simply ignore a referendum result, because it doesn't like it?Barnesian said:
I also agree that the govt feels it has to go ahead with leaving the EU but it's not because they or MPs respect the result. I'm sure most don't. They mistakenly feel they have to say that to avoid a march on London with people with pitchforks or a repeat of the poll tax riots. The only point of democracy is avoid violent revolution when a majority want political change. But this is a very small majority, there is very little danger of a violent revolution that can't be easily put down, and if Parliament think Brexit is a bad idea they should say so and face the consequences (which would mainly hit the Tory party which is why they won't do it.)nielh said:@pulpstar not sure I get your question
I agree that the govt has to go ahead with leaving the eu because this was reflected in the vote result. But the last six months have been a disaster. Boris johnson and liam fox are a total joke.
I think theresa may is doing what she can but has a major problem with her party
MPs voted for a referendum. The government sent out information to EVERY home saying "This is your decision, we the government will implement it"
And, ultimately, David Cameron made this speech
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRowLjb0x48
"It will be your decision. Nobody else's. Not politicians. Not mine. It's yours. You the British people. You will decide. This is a huge decision. And it will be the final decision. If we vote to Leave then we will Leave."
Going back on all this would cause riots. You are crazy. Your position is dangerous and immoral.0 -
In the days before the FTPA did you regularly call for a General Election whenever mid-term polls showed the Opposition ahead of the government by a very clear-cut and striking margin? If the referendum was obviously wrong and you want to recriminate, your target should be the smugly complacent bien-pensants who sat on their arses during the campaign, posting on minority-interest websites, instead of getting out there and campaigning themselves. After all, if Leave voters are so obviously thick, it would have been no problem for a smooth-talking bigass lawyer to talk them into changing their minds, surely?AlastairMeeks said:
None of these were close margins. The balance of public opinion in the relevant polls on all of these was very clear cut, which is what makes them so striking.Pulpstar said:
One can't trust opinion polls to that level of certainty I'm afraid.AlastairMeeks said:
Absolute majorities of the British public think that the government is handling Brexit badly, that the country is more divided, unhappier and more racist than a year ago. They seem convinced by the evidence even if you aren't..Sean_F said:
In what way, have the last six months been disastrous?nielh said:@pulpstar not sure I get your question
I agree that the govt has to go ahead with leaving the eu because this was reflected in the vote result. But the last six months have been a disaster. Boris johnson and liam fox are a total joke.
I think theresa may is doing what she can but has a major problem with her party
You, William Glenn, Bromptonaut, Alistair Meeks and the other hardline Remainers, are simply asking us to take on trust that terrible things are happening or will happen due to Brexit. But, where's the evidence?
People only say what they really think come actual elections.0 -
@another_richard
Sorry I was just observing that going from 0.6% to 1.1% and saying that was a 83% increase was somewhat ill-founded.
Wasn't trying to be rude, and my apologies if it seemed so. Was just joining in with what I took to be a joke on your part.0 -
As I said, we've been set up for a national humiliation of epic proportions, and Cameron knows it which is why he has departed the scene.SeanT said:I defy anyone to watch that Cameron speech and still believe we can reverse this vote.
The prime minister of Great Britain explicitly told us that it was our decision, and only ours, and we would have the say, and whatever we said would be put into effect. No 2nd votes, no rematch. As he put it "If we vote to Leave, we Leave".
If this was ignored or reversed it would be the death of British democracy. Who would bother voting again, if you know that, when they fancy it, the UK Establishment will just ignore a vote and do what the elite prefers, instead?
I wouldn't bother voting again. British democracy would be revealed as a sham and a fraud, no better than the EU. Turn-out would plummet to European Parliament levels. 30%. A hardcore of geeks and crazies.
Ignoring this vote would end this nation as I know it.0 -
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Though it is a bit surprising that there are quite so many of these awful people.another_richard said:For some people democracy only has merit as long as it produces the results they want.
If it doesn't then it can be dispensed with and replaced by oligarchy or dictatorship.
This can be seen currently in many third world countries and on occasions in past European history.
It really isn't surprising that some people also have that mentality in Britain.
0 -
There's a story about Evelyn Waugh writing a novel, and finding he'd written a particular incident, saying "ah thats it - she's a drinker..." Presumably the characters were just acting away in his unconscious mind, and he was merely recording it, rather than consciously plotting. Perhaps this is not typical.SeanT said:
I know one.Dromedary said:
Good luck with it. You'll get through it!SeanT said:Plotting a book, mapping the characters, building the blueprint for the narrative, is unbelievably knackering. Much more so than actual writing. Which is why writers who plot really well get paid lots of money, and writers who can't plot but can write nice sentences, earn a lot less.
Do you believe a novelist who says they don't plot their works in advance? I've long had my doubts.
For proof, I recommend this brilliant, funny, perceptive book about Lee Child's writing style. The author is a posh British literary critic and academic, who loves Child's thrillers. So he spends 3 months in Child's apartment, watching how he writes a book. He literally sits behind Child (must have been freaky) and takes notes, and hears Child opine on writing, smoking and creation in general.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Reacher-Said-Nothing-Child-Making/dp/059307663X/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=
The startling fact is Child doesn't do plotting at all. He just sits down one day with a sentence in his mind, and lets it run from there, and stops when the book is finished.
He has no structure in place, no blueprint, no scaffolding.
So yeah there is one writer who does this, and he is also hugely successful.
But I think he is a Mozart-like exception, a unique genius of sorts.
All writers should plot a book out, and those that don't (e.g. literary novelists) generally write unreadable books that sell 200 copies. And then they whinge about the death of literary fiction. Tsk.0 -
You know I just cannot think why May wouldn't want people of your persuasion to conduct these negotiations. It really is unfathomable.surbiton said:
What utter bullshit ! This is a clear example of the "tyranny of the majority". A majority of 3%.
I have no duty to make Brexit work. It was advisory. In fcat, I will support anyone who will wreck it.
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That's okay, no offence was taken.Omnium said:@another_richard
Sorry I was just observing that going from 0.6% to 1.1% and saying that was a 83% increase was somewhat ill-founded.
Wasn't trying to be rude, and my apologies if it seemed so. Was just joining in with what I took to be a joke on your part.
It was an attempt at an ironic joke on my part (hence the wink smiley).
When UK inflation rose from 0.9% to 1.2% TSE had said that it had increased by 33%.
I was just doing the same ridiculous calculation on Eurozone inflation.
0 -
And quite incredibly supposedly intelligent and decent people are willing that. Brexit, and Trump, have been one hell of an eye-opener, there are a lot of supposedly liberal and democratic people who are nothing of the sort.SeanT said:Ignoring this vote would end this nation as I know it.
0 -
IF you are right that going back on this would cause [uncontrollable] riots then I agree my position is dangerous. But I don't think it would cause serious riots. Could be wrong on that though.SeanT said:
You really honestly believe that the British government should simply ignore a referendum result, because it doesn't like it?Barnesian said:
I also agree that the govt feels it has to go ahead with leaving the EU but it's not because they or MPs respect the result. I'm sure most don't. They mistakenly feel they have to say that to avoid a march on London with people with pitchforks or a repeat of the poll tax riots. The only point of democracy is avoid violent revolution when a majority want political change. But this is a very small majority, there is very little danger of a violent revolution that can't be easily put down, and if Parliament think Brexit is a bad idea they should say so and face the consequences (which would mainly hit the Tory party which is why they won't do it.)nielh said:@pulpstar not sure I get your question
I agree that the govt has to go ahead with leaving the eu because this was reflected in the vote result. But the last six months have been a disaster. Boris johnson and liam fox are a total joke.
I think theresa may is doing what she can but has a major problem with her party
MPs voted for a referendum. The government sent out information to EVERY home saying "This is your decision, we the government will implement it"
And, ultimately, David Cameron made this speech
"It will be your decision. Nobody else's. Not politicians. Not mine. It's yours. You the British people. You will decide. This is a huge decision. And it will be the final decision. If we vote to Leave then we will Leave."
Going back on all this would cause riots. You are crazy. Your position is dangerous and immoral.
The lesson from all this is never ask the people a political question unless you are absolutely certain what the answer will be. In practice it means never again hold a referendum.0 -
You are saying that the UK's EU integration was already done so completely, that it is now impossible for us to Leave - even when a majority have voted to deliver just that very process.williamglenn said:
Nobody is ignoring anything. There's a government department dedicated to seeing it through. The whole of the rest of this parliament will be dominated by making it happen.SeanT said:
You really honestly believe that the British government should simply ignore a referendum result, because it doesn't like it?Barnesian said:
I also agree that the govt feels it has to go ahead with leaving the EU but it's not because they or MPs respect the result. I'm sure most don't. They mistakenly feel they have to say that to avoid a march on London with people with pitchforks or a repeat of the poll tax riots. The only point of democracy is avoid violent revolution when a majority want political change. But this is a very small majority, there is very little danger of a violent revolution that can't be easily put down, and if Parliament think Brexit is a bad idea they should say so and face the consequences (which would mainly hit the Tory party which is why they won't do it.)nielh said:@pulpstar not sure I get your question
I agree that the govt has to go ahead with leaving the eu because this was reflected in the vote result. But the last six months have been a disaster. Boris johnson and liam fox are a total joke.
I think theresa may is doing what she can but has a major problem with her party
When it eventually fails, it won't be because the referendum result was ignored, but because the referendum result was undeliverable. We've been set up for a national humiliation by a delusional cult.
When are you planning to apologise to the UK people for having robbed them of their sovereignty?0 -
Random Drive By Joke...
Bilbo was surprised to wake up one morning and find a Tescos had been built next to his house.
It was an unexpected item in the Baggins area.0 -
0
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@BBCRobertCooper: Labour candidate for the Copeland by-election will be announced on 19th January0
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Has anyone betting on the French presidential market seen a Harris poll that was supposedly released on December 30th?
I have seen it referred to in the French newspaper LesEchos and the translation says it shows Fillon dropping 8 points. But I have been searching all night and cannot find the damned poll.
http://www.lesechos.fr/elections/francois-fillon/0211659499842-la-campagne-de-fillon-ne-convainc-pas-les-francais-2054556.php0 -
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I wouldn't characterise it like that. I think we don't have the appetite to wipe the domestic slate clean in the way that would be required to take away what has been acquired, and that our unwritten constitution makes it fiendishly difficult even to contemplate such a thing.MarqueeMark said:
You are saying that the UK's EU integration was already done so completely, that it is now impossible for us to Leave - even when a majority have voted to deliver just that very process.williamglenn said:
Nobody is ignoring anything. There's a government department dedicated to seeing it through. The whole of the rest of this parliament will be dominated by making it happen.SeanT said:
You really honestly believe that the British government should simply ignore a referendum result, because it doesn't like it?Barnesian said:
I also agree that the govt feels it has to go ahead with leaving the EU but it's not because they or MPs respect the result. I'm sure most don't. They mistakenly feel they have to say that to avoid a march on London with people with pitchforks or a repeat of the poll tax riots. The only point of democracy is avoid violent revolution when a majority want political change. But this is a very small majority, there is very little danger of a violent revolution that can't be easily put down, and if Parliament think Brexit is a bad idea they should say so and face the consequences (which would mainly hit the Tory party which is why they won't do it.)nielh said:@pulpstar not sure I get your question
I agree that the govt has to go ahead with leaving the eu because this was reflected in the vote result. But the last six months have been a disaster. Boris johnson and liam fox are a total joke.
I think theresa may is doing what she can but has a major problem with her party
When it eventually fails, it won't be because the referendum result was ignored, but because the referendum result was undeliverable. We've been set up for a national humiliation by a delusional cult.
When are you planning to apologise to the UK people for having robbed them of their sovereignty?
As for an apology, don't blame me. I was born into it.0 -
I won't be placing any bets on Copeland until we know the full field of runners and riders. A "Save Copeland's NHS" candidate could do very well.Scott_P said:@BBCRobertCooper: Labour candidate for the Copeland by-election will be announced on 19th January
0 -
Fillon's plans to reform sickness benefit - he is accused of planning to privatise the entire social security aparatus - have cost him dearly. The latest polls show Fillon losing eight points in less than one month and with one showing him trailing the independent centrist Emmanuel Macron by a statistically significant 10 percent.BudG said:Has anyone betting on the French presidential market seen a Harris poll that was supposedly released on December 30th?
I have seen it referred to in the French newspaper LesEchos and the translation says it shows Fillon dropping 8 points. But I have been searching all night and cannot find the damned poll.
http://www.lesechos.fr/elections/francois-fillon/0211659499842-la-campagne-de-fillon-ne-convainc-pas-les-francais-2054556.php0 -
Coming round to the purge, Sean?SeanT said:So you wouldn't hold a second referendum to reverse the vote?
Oh wait, you would.
You're just unspeakable. You and your kind. People like you have to be put back in your nasty little boxes.
Brexit is our cultural revolution, purging the opposition is now a necessary step. Distasteful though it may seem. People like this Ivan Rogers guy are continuity remainers and want to take any and all steps to stop us from leaving the EU. As I have said all evening, the government needs absolute loyalty from its employees. We cannot have people serving two masters. I'm now of the opinion that Rogers was just out of the loop, and his not having been told the plan was partly because he had lost the trust of the government, and only partly because the plan is pretty bare bones.0 -
If you're still looking for posh French three syllable names then DelaX or DeXY give plenty of possibilities.SeanT said:
Here are some historic names you could adapt:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Medieval_French_knights
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Knights_Templar
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Is there any particular reason why there might be such a candidate ?MarqueeMark said:
I won't be placing any bets on Copeland until we know the full field of runners and riders. A "Save Copeland's NHS" candidate could do very well.Scott_P said:@BBCRobertCooper: Labour candidate for the Copeland by-election will be announced on 19th January
That would certainly increase the chances of a Conservative win and might be very bad for Corbyn.
0 -
Tezza is on Sky on Sunday0
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It was interesting on Sky that on interviewing leave voters one said that it is inconceivable that we will not leave the EU and that she expected riots and violence if we did not leaveBarnesian said:
IF you are right that going back on this would cause [uncontrollable] riots then I agree my position is dangerous. But I don't think it would cause serious riots. Could be wrong on that though.SeanT said:
You really honestly believe that the British government should simply ignore a referendum result, because it doesn't like it?Barnesian said:
I also agree that the govt feels it has to go ahead with leaving the EU but it's not because they or MPs respect the result. I'm sure most don't. They mistakenly feel they have to say that to avoid a march on London with people with pitchforks or a repeat of the poll tax riots. The only point of democracy is avoid violent revolution when a majority want political change. But this is a very small majority, there is very little danger of a violent revolution that can't be easily put down, and if Parliament think Brexit is a bad idea they should say so and face the consequences (which would mainly hit the Tory party which is why they won't do it.)nielh said:@pulpstar not sure I get your question
I agree that the govt has to go ahead with leaving the eu because this was reflected in the vote result. But the last six months have been a disaster. Boris johnson and liam fox are a total joke.
I think theresa may is doing what she can but has a major problem with her party
MPs voted for a referendum. The government sent out information to EVERY home saying "This is your decision, we the government will implement it"
And, ultimately, David Cameron made this speech
"It will be your decision. Nobody else's. Not politicians. Not mine. It's yours. You the British people. You will decide. This is a huge decision. And it will be the final decision. If we vote to Leave then we will Leave."
Going back on all this would cause riots. You are crazy. Your position is dangerous and immoral.
The lesson from all this is never ask the people a political question unless you are absolutely certain what the answer will be. In practice it means never again hold a referendum.
To be honest in all the coverage it is the first time I have heard anyone so angry. I think it came from a report in Burnley0 -
Wow.
I've popped in to thanK Plato for her recommendation of Spotless before a long day of travelling up North, to find that democracy isn't very cherished amongst some of our continuity remain friends after all...
0 -
I wouldn't hold a second referendum unless I was 100% certain of the result. So no, I wouldn't. It would support an undesirable trend away from our representative democracy which I cherish.SeanT said:
So you wouldn't hold a second referendum to reverse the vote?Barnesian said:
IF you are right that going back on this would cause [uncontrollable] riots then I agree my position is dangerous. But I don't think it would cause serious riots. Could be wrong on that though.SeanT said:
You really honestly believe that the British government should simply ignore a referendum result, because it doesn't like it?Barnesian said:
I also agree that the govt feels it has to go ahead with leaving the EU but it's not because they or MPs respect the result. I'm sure most don't. They mistakenly feel they have to say that to avoid a march on London with people with pitchforks or a repeat of the poll tax riots. The only point of democracy is avoid violent revolution when a majority want political change. But this is a very small majority, there is very little danger of a violent revolution that can't be easily put down, and if Parliament think Brexit is a bad idea they should say so and face the consequences (which would mainly hit the Tory party which is why they won't do it.)nielh said:@pulpstar not sure I get your question
MPs voted for a referendum. The government sent out information to EVERY home saying "This is your decision, we the government will implement it"
And, ultimately, David Cameron made this speech
"It will be your decision. Nobody else's. Not politicians. Not mine. It's yours. You the British people. You will decide. This is a huge decision. And it will be the final decision. If we vote to Leave then we will Leave."
Going back on all this would cause riots. You are crazy. Your position is dangerous and immoral.
The lesson from all this is never ask the people a political question unless you are absolutely certain what the answer will be. In practice it means never again hold a referendum.
Oh wait, you would.
You're just unspeakable. You and your kind. People like you have to be put back in your nasty little boxes.
I accept that Article 50 will be triggered. The people (52% of them) will get their way. And there will be an almighty slow motion train crash with wagon piling on wagon and spillages in all directions.
Incidentally Cameron said all that to frighten people into voting Remain. He didn't actually mean it. Come on!
EDIT: I wondered when you'd bite. You were so into your novel that it took some effort to get your attention.0 -
Telegraph saying there is a plan. So this really does look like Rogers was out of the loop, not that there was no plan. Good judgement from No. 10 IMO, he was clearly not to be trusted.0
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A Blood and Iron Brexit.MaxPB said:
Coming round to the purge, Sean?SeanT said:So you wouldn't hold a second referendum to reverse the vote?
Oh wait, you would.
You're just unspeakable. You and your kind. People like you have to be put back in your nasty little boxes.
Brexit is our cultural revolution, purging the opposition is now a necessary step. Distasteful though it may seem. People like this Ivan Rogers guy are continuity remainers and want to take any and all steps to stop us from leaving the EU. As I have said all evening, the government needs absolute loyalty from its employees. We cannot have people serving two masters. I'm now of the opinion that Rogers was just out of the loop, and his not having been told the plan was partly because he had lost the trust of the government, and only partly because the plan is pretty bare bones.
0 -
Thanks for that, I saw that Macron was reported to be well ahead of Fillon in a popularity poll, but that wasn't a voting intention poll.chestnut said:
Fillon's plans to reform sickness benefit - he is accused of planning to privatise the entire social security aparatus - have cost him dearly. The latest polls show Fillon losing eight points in less than one month and with one showing him trailing the independent centrist Emmanuel Macron by a statistically significant 10 percent.BudG said:Has anyone betting on the French presidential market seen a Harris poll that was supposedly released on December 30th?
I have seen it referred to in the French newspaper LesEchos and the translation says it shows Fillon dropping 8 points. But I have been searching all night and cannot find the damned poll.
http://www.lesechos.fr/elections/francois-fillon/0211659499842-la-campagne-de-fillon-ne-convainc-pas-les-francais-2054556.php
The poll that LesEchos is referring to might be a voting intention poll or might be a popularity poll. The difference is critical, which is why I am still looking for a link to the Harris poll of 30th December.
0 -
Ray Bradbury refused to plot, I think - said it killed his imagination - and he did OK. Even readable, some say.SeanT said:
I know one.Dromedary said:
Good luck with it. You'll get through it!SeanT said:Plotting a book, mapping the characters, building the blueprint for the narrative, is unbelievably knackering. Much more so than actual writing. Which is why writers who plot really well get paid lots of money, and writers who can't plot but can write nice sentences, earn a lot less.
Do you believe a novelist who says they don't plot their works in advance? I've long had my doubts.
For proof, I recommend this brilliant, funny, perceptive book about Lee Child's writing style. The author is a posh British literary critic and academic, who loves Child's thrillers. So he spends 3 months in Child's apartment, watching how he writes a book. He literally sits behind Child (must have been freaky) and takes notes, and hears Child opine on writing, smoking and creation in general.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Reacher-Said-Nothing-Child-Making/dp/059307663X/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=
The startling fact is Child doesn't do plotting at all. He just sits down one day with a sentence in his mind, and lets it run from there, and stops when the book is finished.
He has no structure in place, no blueprint, no scaffolding.
So yeah there is one writer who does this, and he is also hugely successful.
But I think he is a Mozart-like exception, a unique genius of sorts.
All writers should plot a book out, and those that don't (e.g. literary novelists) generally write unreadable books that sell 200 copies. And then they whinge about the death of literary fiction. Tsk.
Wondered about Lemaître, or is that way too French ? (It was the name of a famous Belgian physicist.)
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I thought you said NOT beginning with a K ?SeanT said:
Ta - but, in the end, I went for a nice antique English surname. Kinnersley. Mellifluous enough to have a hint of poshness, but not gay, French and all *Georgette Heyer*another_richard said:
If you're still looking for posh French three syllable names then DelaX or DeXY give plenty of possibilities.SeanT said:
Here are some historic names you could adapt:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Medieval_French_knights
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Knights_Templar
Kinnersley sounds like a posh middle aged bloke with a receding chin and thinning hair, somewhat inbred and a declining financial situation.0 -
Every journalist says the Telegraph front page has no new information.MaxPB said:Telegraph saying there is a plan. So this really does look like Rogers was out of the loop, not that there was no plan. Good judgement from No. 10 IMO, he was clearly not to be trusted.
The "plan" is Brexit...0 -
Every journalist?Scott_P said:
Every journalist says the Telegraph front page has no new information.MaxPB said:Telegraph saying there is a plan. So this really does look like Rogers was out of the loop, not that there was no plan. Good judgement from No. 10 IMO, he was clearly not to be trusted.
The "plan" is Brexit...0 -
The only way a second referendum would be possible, even vaguely justifiable,would be if it were a manifesto commitment of a party winning the next general election - so pretty well unimaginable, though not literally impossible.SeanT said:
So you wouldn't hold a second referendum to reverse the vote?Barnesian said:
IF you are right that going back on this would cause [uncontrollable] riots then I agree my position is dangerous. But I don't think it would cause serious riots. Could be wrong on that though.SeanT said:
You really honestly believe that the British government should simply ignore a referendum result, because it doesn't like it?Barnesian said:
I also agree that the govt feels it has to go ahead with leaving the EU but it's not because they or MPs respect the result. I'm sure most don't. They mistakenly feel they have to say that to avoid a march on London with people with pitchforks or a repeat of the poll tax riots. The only point of democracy is avoid violent revolution when a majority want political change. But this is a very small majority, there is very little danger of a violent revolution that can't be easily put down, and if Parliament think Brexit is a bad idea they should say so and face the consequences (which would mainly hit the Tory party which is why they won't do it.)nielh said:@pulpstar not sure I get your question
I agree that the govt has to go ahead with leaving the eu because this was reflected in the vote result. But the last six months have been a disaster. Boris johnson and liam fox are a total joke.
I think theresa may is doing what she can but has a major problem with her party
MPs voted for a referendum. The government sent out information to EVERY home saying "This is your decision, we the government will implement it"
And, ultimately, David Cameron made this speech
"It will be your decision. Nobody else's. Not politicians. Not mine. It's yours. You the British people. You will decide. This is a huge decision. And it will be the final decision. If we vote to Leave then we will Leave."
Going back on all this would cause riots. You are crazy. Your position is dangerous and immoral.
The lesson from all this is never ask the people a political question unless you are absolutely certain what the answer will be. In practice it means never again hold a referendum.
Oh wait, you would.
You're just unspeakable. You and your kind. People like you have to be put back in your nasty little boxes.
(By the way in trying to hit the quote button, accidentally labelled your post as off topic - apologies.)0 -
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WhenGuy Verhofstadt expresses admiration for Rogers I think you can see he was 'one of them'MaxPB said:
Coming round to the purge, Sean?SeanT said:So you wouldn't hold a second referendum to reverse the vote?
Oh wait, you would.
You're just unspeakable. You and your kind. People like you have to be put back in your nasty little boxes.
Brexit is our cultural revolution, purging the opposition is now a necessary step. Distasteful though it may seem. People like this Ivan Rogers guy are continuity remainers and want to take any and all steps to stop us from leaving the EU. As I have said all evening, the government needs absolute loyalty from its employees. We cannot have people serving two masters. I'm now of the opinion that Rogers was just out of the loop, and his not having been told the plan was partly because he had lost the trust of the government, and only partly because the plan is pretty bare bones.0 -
The quote button is back! Yay!0
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The only way Brexit is reversed is if the LDs win the next general election and a second referendum votes to rejoin the EU, it is extremely unlikely but the only way it will happen0
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Is she also "out of the loop" ?
@politicshome: Andrea Leadsom reassures farmers over access to EU immigrants after Brexit pic.twitter.com/VICNG7oOsX0 -
THE QUOTE BUTTON IS BACK BIATCHES PBERS0
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If the Telegraph is right the UK's strategy is give us what we want or we will shoot ourselves. Nice one. Anyone not agreeing with that should be executed.0
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And why not as long as they have a work permitScott_P said:Is she also "out of the loop" ?
@politicshome: Andrea Leadsom reassures farmers over access to EU immigrants after Brexit pic.twitter.com/VICNG7oOsX0 -
"To the block with Newcastle and the yardarm with Byng".SouthamObserver said:
A Blood and Iron Brexit.MaxPB said:
Coming round to the purge, Sean?SeanT said:So you wouldn't hold a second referendum to reverse the vote?
Oh wait, you would.
You're just unspeakable. You and your kind. People like you have to be put back in your nasty little boxes.
Brexit is our cultural revolution, purging the opposition is now a necessary step. Distasteful though it may seem. People like this Ivan Rogers guy are continuity remainers and want to take any and all steps to stop us from leaving the EU. As I have said all evening, the government needs absolute loyalty from its employees. We cannot have people serving two masters. I'm now of the opinion that Rogers was just out of the loop, and his not having been told the plan was partly because he had lost the trust of the government, and only partly because the plan is pretty bare bones.
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I think there is a non trivial chance that it will be Macron vs Fillon is the second round. Le Pen has dropped to 24% across the board. And if Bayrou drops out and endorses Macron, then (given the FN had consistently underperformed its polling) then that has to be a good chance.chestnut said:
Fillon's plans to reform sickness benefit - he is accused of planning to privatise the entire social security aparatus - have cost him dearly. The latest polls show Fillon losing eight points in less than one month and with one showing him trailing the independent centrist Emmanuel Macron by a statistically significant 10 percent.BudG said:Has anyone betting on the French presidential market seen a Harris poll that was supposedly released on December 30th?
I have seen it referred to in the French newspaper LesEchos and the translation says it shows Fillon dropping 8 points. But I have been searching all night and cannot find the damned poll.
http://www.lesechos.fr/elections/francois-fillon/0211659499842-la-campagne-de-fillon-ne-convainc-pas-les-francais-2054556.php
Sell Le Pen.0 -
Looks like Marine Le Pen is in the process of a major EU u-turn.0
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New thread...0
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Germany and France as well losing the single largest consumer nation in the single market would be a disaster for the rest of the EU. Whether or not you want to admit that is irrelevant.SouthamObserver said:If the Telegraph is right the UK's strategy is give us what we want or we will shoot ourselves. Nice one. Anyone not agreeing with that should be executed.
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