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SystemSystem Posts: 12,685
edited December 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The winners under First Past The Post should rigidly adhere to election spending laws

The chart above is self-explanatory and illustrates clearly how well the electoral system treated the Tories at the last election and how hard it was on the smaller parties particularly UKIP.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,107
    First past the post is past its sell by date.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    The same is true of the losers.

    It is apparent that all of our political parties regard inconvenient laws as something to be circumvented. If they want to be treated with respect, politicians should do as the rest of us are expected to do and obey the law.

    If they think the laws are stupid, they should campaign accordingly, not seek to pull the wool over the eyes of the rest of us.
  • augustus_carpaugustus_carp Posts: 224
    (Would have been the first to comment, but I had to re-register - which, after a gap of about 10 years, is perhaps to be expected.)
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    Welcome back @augustus_carp.The PB community has missed you
  • augustus_carpaugustus_carp Posts: 224
    FWIW, I don't think overspending is as big a vice as the various other forms of fraudulent behaviour that pollute elections today. Impersonation is rife, the electoral roll is beyond a joke and the postal vote system is still a mechanism designed to allow the better organised parties to steal the result. Money merely facilitates those activities more easily, it doesn't create the circumstances in which they take place.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,054
    It would be nice to think that parties could put aside narrow self-interest to agree a post-Brexit constitutional convention in which all these issues, and many more, are discussed maturely. But it won't happen.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Campaign spending limits are past their sell by date
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Mike or @rcs1000 etc could it be fixed so that writing a message and then pressing tab doesn't go to Sign Out rather than Post Comment? Very frustrating.
  • augustus_carpaugustus_carp Posts: 224
    Which is thought to be the more important in winning elections these days - the Air War or the Ground War? That might have a bearing on the (perceived?) problems of over-expenditure.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,791
    augustus_carp said:

    Which is thought to be the more important in winning elections these days - the Air War or the Ground War? That might have a bearing on the (perceived?) problems of over-expenditure.

    Neither, targeting (and profiling) the voters is the holy grail these days.

    And welcome back old bean!
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,791
    The most elegant solution I've seen suggested on spending limit is to have a national total and it is up to the parties on how and where they spend it.

    Constituency spending limits are an anachronism in the digital and quasi Presidential age.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 45,192
    Philip_Thompson said:

    Campaign spending limits are past their sell by date

    The current maximum spends or the concept of limits at all?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,384
    Meh. I would abolish spending limits for elections altogether.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,107
    SouthamObserver said:

    It would be nice to think that parties could put aside narrow self-interest to agree a post-Brexit constitutional convention in which all these issues, and many more, are discussed maturely. But it won't happen.

    That's so sweet.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,895
    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Augustus, Lord of Carp, it hasn't been that long. Welcome back.
  • ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    So should the losers.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    When Blair won his 179 maj in 1997 .He should have kept his promise to Roy Jenkins and introduce a new voting system namely PR.At that time it would have been seen as an honourable thing to do,not out of self interest after getting such a majority on 43%.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    augustus_carp said:

    Which is thought to be the more important in winning elections these days - the Air War or the Ground War? That might have a bearing on the (perceived?) problems of over-expenditure.

    You have to have a superb ground game. IOS kept telling us how good the labour ground game was and he was proved absolutely ....... Errr... Wrong

    I am Very much more concerned in regard to voter fraud than a few quid over the top but rules is rules and they should be followed I guess.

    What would the graphs look like during Tony "I'm just a straight kind of guy" Blairs landslides.?
  • Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294
    edited December 2016
    Philip Thompson [4.00pm]

    Campaign spending limits are past their sell by date

    ***

    Why not just put the Government up for sale to the highest bidder? And/or criminalise poverty? (This also applies to David L's comment)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 81,168
    AlastairMeeks said:

    The same is true of the losers.

    It is apparent that all of our political parties regard inconvenient laws as something to be circumvented. If they want to be treated with respect, politicians should do as the rest of us are expected to do and obey the law.

    If they think the laws are stupid, they should campaign accordingly, not seek to pull the wool over the eyes of the rest of us.

    True.
    The current campaign spending laws were archaic a way back; they are now ridiculous (and demonstrably held in contempt by the major parties). That they should continue to break the law on a regular basis rather than reforming it is strange.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    O/T
    Bradley retires

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-4070910/Sir-Bradley-Wiggins-retires-cycling-20-year-career-saw-win-five-Olympic-gold-medals.html
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,791
    https://twitter.com/dandrezner/status/813065079402983424
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,931
    Politicalbetting.com is just a club for people to get together, talk and have a good time.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    @ DavidL "Meh. I would abolish spending limits for elections altogether."

    I misread that as "I would abolish elections altogether" and thought "How Trumpian of you." ;)
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,314
    Required reading for anyone who thinks we'd be better off if the government was more 'in control' of immigration. 6 years of Theresa May doesn't seem to have left the Home Office in any better shape than it was before.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/28/dutch-woman-with-two-british-children-told-to-leave-uk-after-24-years?CMP=fb_gu
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,895
    Mr. Glenn, decline in the number of prison officers occurred under her watch too.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,791
    edited December 2016
    Morris_Dancer said:

    Mr. Glenn, decline in the number of prison officers occurred under her watch too.

    Not her fault. Prisons are under the control of the Justice Secretary, not the Home Secretary
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,895
    Mr. Eagles, my mistake.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,314
    @TheScreamingEagles

    https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/814082598477631488
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 45,192
    williamglenn said:

    @TheScreamingEagles

    https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/814082598477631488

    Is 'strumentalised' a word? I hope so.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,791
    Morris_Dancer said:

    Mr. Eagles, my mistake.

    Like classical history, I'm quite happy to educate you on the criminal justice system, and in particular prisons/NOMS
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,361
    It should also be illegal to publish literature which is factually incorrect e.g. "X can't win here".

    It might be improbable that X will win, it might be that candidate Y or Mr Z believes that X can't win, but to make a statement which is provably untrue ought to be illegal.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,314
    Theuniondivvie said:

    williamglenn said:

    @TheScreamingEagles

    https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/814082598477631488

    Is 'strumentalised' a word? I hope so.
    Yes I love that! It's a garbled translation of the Italian for 'instrumentalised' but it should become a neologism.
  • ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    Morris_Dancer said:

    Mr. Eagles, my mistake.

    Blair's mistake for splitting the two in the first place...
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,361
    MikeSmithson said:

    Welcome back @augustus_carp.The PB community has missed you

    Seconded!
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    augustus_carp said:

    Which is thought to be the more important in winning elections these days - the Air War or the Ground War? That might have a bearing on the (perceived?) problems of over-expenditure.

    Neither, targeting (and profiling) the voters is the holy grail these days.

    Do keep up, TSE. Big data was so last year. In these post-Brexit, post-Trumpian times, it is a flexible approach to the truth and personal abuse on Twitter that wins elections.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    One of the best reflections of my own mindset that I have seen in the news. Helena Morrissey as reported in the Bellylaugh:

    "We have had people before flexing their muscles, as it were, and saying they're out of here and then realising, actually, London is the place to be and we have a huge amount going for us that would be incredibly difficult to replicate anywhere else.

    "We do have to have a different mindset, I think. We do have to embrace the opportunities, we have to look forwards, not at what we might have lost, and I think that's something that isn't quite there yet."

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/12/28/business-chiefs-back-staying-post-brexit-britain/
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,457
    The Electoral Commission and legislators have been sleeping on the job on this, and lack of clarity helps nobody in the end.

    The rules are built around fairly clear distinctions in spending - the battle bus and venue hire for the manifesto launch are national, the election address local etc. But modern campaigns, either deliberately or just because methods have changed, leave it very unclear. Is a letter from Cameron (at the time) to a voter in Torbay that doesn't mention the local candidate a local expense? I'd say yes because who else do you want the voter to support but the local Tory representative... but I appreciate there's at least some debate. And what of a battle bus ferrying large numbers of volunteers rather than the party leader and entourage? Or a targeted social media campaign focusing on employees of an employer which happens to be huge in Luton North?

    Either the Electoral Commission needs to engage much more in what a modern election looks like and draw up very clear guidance (rather than the current "use your best honest judgement" nonsense), or they need to shift to a purely national limit with no distinction between spending categories in the campaign period, and a reasonably simple formula (£x multiplied by number of candidates, possibly plus y pence multiplied by votes at last election, for example).
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,895
    Mr. Eagles, letting you correct me once is my festive gift to you.

    Mr. Quidder, hard to believe Blair partook in constitutional buggery.
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    Fake "newspapers" should be illegal and election publications should state clearly in large font at the top and bottom of each page which party the election literature is for.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    SirNorfolkPassmore said:

    The Electoral Commission and legislators have been sleeping on the job on this, and lack of clarity helps nobody in the end.

    The rules are built around fairly clear distinctions in spending - the battle bus and venue hire for the manifesto launch are national, the election address local etc. But modern campaigns, either deliberately or just because methods have changed, leave it very unclear. Is a letter from Cameron (at the time) to a voter in Torbay that doesn't mention the local candidate a local expense? I'd say yes because who else do you want the voter to support but the local Tory representative... but I appreciate there's at least some debate. And what of a battle bus ferrying large numbers of volunteers rather than the party leader and entourage? Or a targeted social media campaign focusing on employees of an employer which happens to be huge in Luton North?

    Either the Electoral Commission needs to engage much more in what a modern election looks like and draw up very clear guidance (rather than the current "use your best honest judgement" nonsense), or they need to shift to a purely national limit with no distinction between spending categories in the campaign period, and a reasonably simple formula (£x multiplied by number of candidates, possibly plus y pence multiplied by votes at last election, for example).

    The Electoral Commission also needs to get a grip on social media, perhaps by applying a notional cost to a tweet. If we are to have restrictions on what can be broadcast, they must be extended to Youtube, and so on.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,314
    Y0kel said:

    Assange has been shilling for the the lads at Yasenevo for ages.

    Any more word on the cause of the Sochi crash?
  • ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    Morris_Dancer said:

    Mr. Eagles, letting you correct me once is my festive gift to you.

    Mr. Quidder, hard to believe Blair partook in constitutional buggery.

    Shocking, isn't it?
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    The most elegant solution I've seen suggested on spending limit is to have a national total and it is up to the parties on how and where they spend it.

    Constituency spending limits are an anachronism in the digital and quasi Presidential age.

    Massively increasing the major parties' edge over the rest, because they could concentrate everythin on the marginals. What are the advantages of that?
  • Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    Human error leading to technical failure or just a plain tech issue based on all reports but there is still mystery.

    Early reports of the flash in the sky are said to be discounted.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,701
    SirNorfolkPassmore said:

    The Electoral Commission and legislators have been sleeping on the job on this, and lack of clarity helps nobody in the end.

    The rules are built around fairly clear distinctions in spending - the battle bus and venue hire for the manifesto launch are national, the election address local etc. But modern campaigns, either deliberately or just because methods have changed, leave it very unclear. Is a letter from Cameron (at the time) to a voter in Torbay that doesn't mention the local candidate a local expense? I'd say yes because who else do you want the voter to support but the local Tory representative... but I appreciate there's at least some debate. And what of a battle bus ferrying large numbers of volunteers rather than the party leader and entourage? Or a targeted social media campaign focusing on employees of an employer which happens to be huge in Luton North?

    Either the Electoral Commission needs to engage much more in what a modern election looks like and draw up very clear guidance (rather than the current "use your best honest judgement" nonsense), or they need to shift to a purely national limit with no distinction between spending categories in the campaign period, and a reasonably simple formula (£x multiplied by number of candidates, possibly plus y pence multiplied by votes at last election, for example).

    Targeted social media campaigns are surely quite cheap to run. Might be labour intensive in harvesting the accounts, but it’s not as though a group of people have to sit there night after night pressing buttons.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Err - I seem to recall the Lib Dems getting maximum fines for breaching spending limits?

    Labour as well as the tories also found guilty of breaches of the spending rules.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,791
    Floater said:

    Err - I seem to recall the Lib Dems getting maximum fines for breaching spending limits?

    Labour as well as the tories also found guilty of breaches of the spending rules.

    You recall incorrectly.

    The Lib Dem fines were for not declaring all the costs on the original returns on time, not for breaching the spending limits.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,791
    Ishmael_Z said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    The most elegant solution I've seen suggested on spending limit is to have a national total and it is up to the parties on how and where they spend it.

    Constituency spending limits are an anachronism in the digital and quasi Presidential age.

    Massively increasing the major parties' edge over the rest, because they could concentrate everythin on the marginals. What are the advantages of that?
    Because the current rules have huge flaws with them.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 7,191
    How do you define "free resources"? If wealthy or just keen activists campaign in an "away" constituency and don't charge for their travel or subsistence, surely as much is being spent on the campaign by the individual as it would if they were being paid expenses by the party. Similarly, if I go canvassing, any petrol I use and my lunch should be reckoned a contribution to the campaign, whether it's incurred personally by me or reimbursed by the party
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    "First past the post is past its sell by date." says Jonathan

    Was it a problem when FPP worked in Labours party Jon?

    How about vote fraud, why does Labour have a problem with a clamp down?

  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    Sadly the thread title seems to suggest it's ok for losers to break the law. What is it with Liberals and hypocrisy?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,791
    https://twitter.com/MattSingh_/status/813681135272206337
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,457
    "The Electoral Commission also needs to get a grip on social media, perhaps by applying a notional cost to a tweet. If we are to have restrictions on what can be broadcast, they must be extended to Youtube, and so on."

    I don't agree with this, John. Ultimately, the point of the expenses limit is to avoid elections being won by deep pockets.

    If you tweet something reach isn't really a function of pocket depth (aside from promoted posts which have an actual cost - notional cost isn't the point here). So if a party organises supporters to post X on private accounts, then I don't see this as very different from getting canvassers or delivers out working.

    The analogy with broadcast isn't sound either. The broadcast restrictions are because there was a wish (rightly or wrongly) to allow a space in which the public could be reasonably confident there is a semblance of balance and parity of coverage. I know some on here disagree it's achieved... but I do think voters watch TV and listen to radio expecting some balance in election coverage, whereas they don't (and nor should they) in the press, or on YouTube, or on bits of paper stuffed through their letterbox.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    williamglenn said:

    Required reading for anyone who thinks we'd be better off if the government was more 'in control' of immigration. 6 years of Theresa May doesn't seem to have left the Home Office in any better shape than it was before.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/28/dutch-woman-with-two-british-children-told-to-leave-uk-after-24-years?CMP=fb_gu

    Required reading?.......in the Guardian?..... Mmmmmmm.....
  • isamisam Posts: 42,625
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    https://twitter.com/MattSingh_/status/813681135272206337

    Where were the 130 allegations? Widespread or concentrated?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 81,168
    JohnLilburne said:

    How do you define "free resources"? If wealthy or just keen activists campaign in an "away" constituency and don't charge for their travel or subsistence, surely as much is being spent on the campaign by the individual as it would if they were being paid expenses by the party. Similarly, if I go canvassing, any petrol I use and my lunch should be reckoned a contribution to the campaign, whether it's incurred personally by me or reimbursed by the party

    Would that not be a rather harsh restriction on freedom of expression ?

    The US has gone too far in the other direction - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._FEC - but there is a happy medium between the extremes, and I think we're closer to it than they are.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    edited December 2016
    Deleted rather than struggling to clean up the nested quotes.
  • BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,113
    edited December 2016
    Complete debunking of the fantasy £24bn saving promised by Gove.

    http://eulawanalysis.blogspot.co.uk/2016/12/hard-brexit-benefits-change-britains-24.html?m=1

    6 months on and we're nowhere nearer a cogent plan.
  • ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    Bromptonaut said:

    Complete debunking of the fantasy £24bn saving promised by Gove.

    http://eulawanalysis.blogspot.co.uk/2016/12/hard-brexit-benefits-change-britains-24.html?m=1

    6 months on and we're nowhere nearer a cogent plan.

    Didn't get past "the UK has full control over [...] whether the rebate is retained in future" as that is simply untrue.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,714
    Bromptonaut said:

    Complete debunking of the fantasy £24bn saving promised by Gove.

    http://eulawanalysis.blogspot.co.uk/2016/12/hard-brexit-benefits-change-britains-24.html?m=1

    6 months on and we're nowhere nearer a cogent plan.

    £10-14bn savings doesn't sound too bad though. And yes, the government have just been twiddling their thumbs over the last six months.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,314
    Bromptonaut said:

    Complete debunking of the fantasy £24bn saving promised by Gove.

    http://eulawanalysis.blogspot.co.uk/2016/12/hard-brexit-benefits-change-britains-24.html?m=1

    The more you dig into that 'report' the more laughable it becomes. They claim we will save over £150m from getting rid of the eco-design directive for TVs.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,935
    Y0kel said:

    Human error leading to technical failure or just a plain tech issue based on all reports but there is still mystery.

    Early reports of the flash in the sky are said to be discounted.

    The recent Russian plane crash, yes. Looks like they pulled up the flaps instead of the gear. Schoolboy error.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,314
    ThreeQuidder said:

    Bromptonaut said:

    Complete debunking of the fantasy £24bn saving promised by Gove.

    http://eulawanalysis.blogspot.co.uk/2016/12/hard-brexit-benefits-change-britains-24.html?m=1

    6 months on and we're nowhere nearer a cogent plan.

    Didn't get past "the UK has full control over [...] whether the rebate is retained in future" as that is simply untrue.
    In the strict legal sense it is absolutely true. Unanimity is required. Whether or not we consider it in our interests to trade it away for something is entirely a matter for the government.

    http://ec.europa.eu/budget/mff/introduction/index_en.cfm
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    edited December 2016
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/28/netanyahu-told-new-zealand-backing-un-vote-would-be-declaration-of-war

    Netanunu losing his marbles.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/26/netanyahu-snubs-may-over-un-settlements-vote-israeli-media-says

    Soon he will have to snub everyone apart from Trump.
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited December 2016
    @Y0kel

    Your post about Assange is beyond the pale.

    "he is a thoroughly unpleasant individual who deserves to be disposed off of in a set of black bags"

    Seriously though, suggesting people deserve to be murdered is throughly unpleasant.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Floater said:

    "First past the post is past its sell by date." says Jonathan

    Was it a problem when FPP worked in Labours party Jon?

    How about vote fraud, why does Labour have a problem with a clamp down?

    It is not the clamp down on vote fraud that is the problem -- after all, it is often the Labour Party which is the victim, as in Tower Hamlets -- but that it is being used as cover for voter suppression.
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,966
    A national spending limit based on number of candidates would encourage small parties to stand paper candidates, then focus all their money into a handful of constituencies. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it would happen.
  • ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    DecrepitJohnL said:

    Floater said:

    "First past the post is past its sell by date." says Jonathan

    Was it a problem when FPP worked in Labours party Jon?

    How about vote fraud, why does Labour have a problem with a clamp down?

    It is not the clamp down on vote fraud that is the problem -- after all, it is often the Labour Party which is the victim, as in Tower Hamlets -- but that it is being used as cover for voter suppression.
    Some evidence for that assertion would be helpful.

    Personally, I don't see the need for showing ID in order to vote, but the postal voting system needs a clampdown and the outlawing of parties' activists handling postal votes is long overdue.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,701
    FFS. Sorry

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,701
    ThreeQuidder said:

    DecrepitJohnL said:

    Floater said:

    "First past the post is past its sell by date." says Jonathan

    Was it a problem when FPP worked in Labours party Jon?

    How about vote fraud, why does Labour have a problem with a clamp down?

    It is not the clamp down on vote fraud that is the problem -- after all, it is often the Labour Party which is the victim, as in Tower Hamlets -- but that it is being used as cover for voter suppression.
    Some evidence for that assertion would be helpful.

    Personally, I don't see the need for showing ID in order to vote, but the postal voting system needs a clampdown and the outlawing of parties' activists handling postal votes is long overdue.
    Agree.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Pong said:

    @Y0kel

    Your post about Assange is beyond the pale.

    "he is a thoroughly unpleasant individual who deserves to be disposed off of in a set of black bags"

    Seriously though, suggesting people deserve to be murdered is throughly unpleasant.

    Wonder where Y0kel gets such ideas from ?
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Y0kel said:

    Assange has been shilling for the the lads at Yasenevo for ages.

    To top that, he is a thoroughly unpleasant individual who deserves to be disposed off in a set of black bags.

    That an average member of the public like me could identify his links before the media brought it out to full effect tells you just how obvious it was.

    Y0kel = average member ? Oh, yeah !

  • PBModeratorPBModerator Posts: 667
    Pong said:

    @Y0kel

    Your post about Assange is beyond the pale.

    "he is a thoroughly unpleasant individual who deserves to be disposed off of in a set of black bags"

    Seriously though, suggesting people deserve to be murdered is throughly unpleasant.

    Noted and deleted
  • isamisam Posts: 42,625
    If my hybrid of FPTP and PR (?) was adopted where the number of constituencies was cut to 600, but the other 50 seats were represented by 1 MP for each 2% of the national vote gained, the HofC would have looked like this after the 2015 GE

    Con 323 (330)
    Lab 230 (232)
    SNP 54 (56)
    LD 12 (8)
    UKIP 8 (1)
    Green 3 (1)

    A bit fairer I would have thought... and Dave would still be PM with Nick as Dep!
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Theuniondivvie said:

    Philip_Thompson said:

    Campaign spending limits are past their sell by date

    The current maximum spends or the concept of limits at all?
    Both but especially the constituency limits. Limiting the amount of contact that campaigns can make with voters is damaging not productive.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,935
    ThreeQuidder said:

    DecrepitJohnL said:

    Floater said:

    "First past the post is past its sell by date." says Jonathan

    Was it a problem when FPP worked in Labours party Jon?

    How about vote fraud, why does Labour have a problem with a clamp down?

    It is not the clamp down on vote fraud that is the problem -- after all, it is often the Labour Party which is the victim, as in Tower Hamlets -- but that it is being used as cover for voter suppression.
    Some evidence for that assertion would be helpful.

    Personally, I don't see the need for showing ID in order to vote, but the postal voting system needs a clampdown and the outlawing of parties' activists handling postal votes is long overdue.
    Activists being anywhere near postal votes needs to be eliminated completely. It's clearly a problem in certain "communities" and needs to be dealt with very harshly.
  • isamisam Posts: 42,625
    On topic, isn't it a shame that democracy is twisted and spun by power hungry fakes? Its the only way Blair won, and the same goes for Cameron. I hate that when people say "that's politics" they mean it to describe something shifty and underhand, rather than something good and honest.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,384
    MTimT said:

    @ DavidL "Meh. I would abolish spending limits for elections altogether."

    I misread that as "I would abolish elections altogether" and thought "How Trumpian of you." ;)

    After the absolute embarrassment this year (crap candidates, crap debates and an absurd result where the loser won and the winner lost, not to mention the incompetence of the count) I would not be surprised if even the land of the elected dog catcher had not had enough of elections for a while.

    But our present rules are arcane, complex and largely pointless. They have allowed the incompetent buffoons in the Electoral Commission to stay off the unemployment register where they belong but it is hard to see any other benefits.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,091
    ThreeQuidder said:

    DecrepitJohnL said:

    Floater said:

    "First past the post is past its sell by date." says Jonathan

    Was it a problem when FPP worked in Labours party Jon?

    How about vote fraud, why does Labour have a problem with a clamp down?

    It is not the clamp down on vote fraud that is the problem -- after all, it is often the Labour Party which is the victim, as in Tower Hamlets -- but that it is being used as cover for voter suppression.
    Some evidence for that assertion would be helpful.

    Personally, I don't see the need for showing ID in order to vote, but the postal voting system needs a clampdown and the outlawing of parties' activists handling postal votes is long overdue.
    There is far too much heat and not enough light when the mechanics of voting - yet alone the voting system - is discussed. Much of the heat is ill-informed, if only because there is very little evidence either way.

    Take postal voting: yes, there have been a few court cases about fraud, and occasionally organised fraud, but little evidence that there has been frequent mass fraud on a scale likely to change the result of an election (*), and especially in a GE.

    So we need evidence before we make policy. Perform as much research as can be done whilst maintaining voter privacy and anonymity (and that is a big problem for research). Random checks of PV signatures might be one system, especially where fraud is suspected or likely.

    (*) The following is an example where it may well have:
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/councillors-guilty-of-postal-votes-fraud-that-would-shame-a-banana-republic-5350422.html
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    isam said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    https://twitter.com/MattSingh_/status/813681135272206337

    Where were the 130 allegations? Widespread or concentrated?
    It's in white working class areas. Fu8ing racist piece of shits....Is that what you wanted to know?
  • isamisam Posts: 42,625
    nunu said:

    isam said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    https://twitter.com/MattSingh_/status/813681135272206337

    Where were the 130 allegations? Widespread or concentrated?
    It's in white working class areas. Fu8ing racist piece of shits....Is that what you wanted to know?
    Just fancied the truth. If that's it so be it... or is that fake news?
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    nunu said:

    isam said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    https://twitter.com/MattSingh_/status/813681135272206337

    Where were the 130 allegations? Widespread or concentrated?
    It's in white working class areas. Fu8ing racist piece of shits....Is that what you wanted to know?
    Enter the one word "personation" in google search and look at the suggested completions.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,935
    Sandpit said:

    Y0kel said:

    Human error leading to technical failure or just a plain tech issue based on all reports but there is still mystery.

    Early reports of the flash in the sky are said to be discounted.

    The recent Russian plane crash, yes. Looks like they pulled up the flaps instead of the gear. Schoolboy error.
    From all the other recent discussion of fake news, it sounds like the BBC is now reporting what some random Russian blog says about the plane crash, from only an hour or two after it was reported that a flight recorder was recovered from the scene.

    Genuine pilots' forum seems to be waiting for real news.
    http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/588730-tu154-out-sochi-missing-9.html
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,966
    Allegations of voting fraud =/= instances of voting fraud

    Could be a big problem, could be a tiny one.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,429
    Ishmael_Z said:

    nunu said:

    isam said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    https://twitter.com/MattSingh_/status/813681135272206337

    Where were the 130 allegations? Widespread or concentrated?
    It's in white working class areas. Fu8ing racist piece of shits....Is that what you wanted to know?
    Enter the one word "personation" in google search and look at the suggested completions.
    Given how much Google now personalises autocomplete, that may say more about you...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 87,588
    edited December 2016
    Greenwald and Guardian falling out over their idol / former idol...quite amusing really.

    I bet their are some cracking quotes from the Guardianistas of this world on how brilliant Assange is...dating back to when he was helping to dump a tonne of shit over Bush led US.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,935
    edited December 2016
    Ishmael_Z said:

    nunu said:

    isam said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    https://twitter.com/MattSingh_/status/813681135272206337

    Where were the 130 allegations? Widespread or concentrated?
    It's in white working class areas. Fu8ing racist piece of shits....Is that what you wanted to know?
    Enter the one word "personation" in google search and look at the suggested completions.
    "Personation meaning in Hindi"
    "Personation meaning in Urdu"
    From google.co.uk with a cleared cache.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,714
    Sandpit said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    nunu said:

    isam said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    https://twitter.com/MattSingh_/status/813681135272206337

    Where were the 130 allegations? Widespread or concentrated?
    It's in white working class areas. Fu8ing racist piece of shits....Is that what you wanted to know?
    Enter the one word "personation" in google search and look at the suggested completions.
    "Personation meaning in Hindi"
    "Personation meaning in Urdu"
    From google.co.uk with a cleared cache.
    I think they track by IP, so cache doesn't matter.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,990
    Essexit said:

    Allegations of voting fraud =/= instances of voting fraud

    Could be a big problem, could be a tiny one.

    Seems to me this is an instance where prevention has a considerable value. It's good to be able to rely on the integrity of our voting procedures.

    Good evening, everyone.
  • ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    isam said:

    On topic, isn't it a shame that democracy is twisted and spun by power hungry fakes? Its the only way Blair won, and the same goes for Cameron. I hate that when people say "that's politics" they mean it to describe something shifty and underhand, rather than something good and honest.

    It would be nice if the voters rewarded good and honest behaviour, but I won't be holding my breath.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,935
    edited December 2016
    RobD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    nunu said:

    isam said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    https://twitter.com/MattSingh_/status/813681135272206337

    Where were the 130 allegations? Widespread or concentrated?
    It's in white working class areas. Fu8ing racist piece of shits....Is that what you wanted to know?
    Enter the one word "personation" in google search and look at the suggested completions.
    "Personation meaning in Hindi"
    "Personation meaning in Urdu"
    From google.co.uk with a cleared cache.
    I think they track by IP, so cache doesn't matter.
    I'm not in UK, never otherwise use Google UK and have a dynamic IP on home internet connection. Don't see why result isn't genuine and have heard of similar results before.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,314
    The BBC has picked up the Guardian story on Civil Service disquiet about Brexit.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38450840

    "Ministers lack the political courage to admit how complex and time-consuming this will be.

    "When anyone pops their head above the parapet - former permanent secretaries, ex-cabinet secretaries, the Institute for Government - and says this is going to take a long time and it's complex, they are immediately shot down and accused of betraying the will of the people."
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,935
    williamglenn said:

    The BBC has picked up the Guardian story on Civil Service disquiet about Brexit.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38450840

    "Ministers lack the political courage to admit how complex and time-consuming this will be.

    "When anyone pops their head above the parapet - former permanent secretaries, ex-cabinet secretaries, the Institute for Government - and says this is going to take a long time and it's complex, they are immediately shot down and accused of betraying the will of the people."

    Which just goes to illustrate why we voted to leave, before we became so far integrated into this United States of Europe that it would be impossible to get out.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,714
    Sandpit said:

    RobD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    nunu said:

    isam said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    https://twitter.com/MattSingh_/status/813681135272206337

    Where were the 130 allegations? Widespread or concentrated?
    It's in white working class areas. Fu8ing racist piece of shits....Is that what you wanted to know?
    Enter the one word "personation" in google search and look at the suggested completions.
    "Personation meaning in Hindi"
    "Personation meaning in Urdu"
    From google.co.uk with a cleared cache.
    I think they track by IP, so cache doesn't matter.
    I'm not in UK, never otherwise use Google UK and have a dynamic IP on home internet connection. Don't see why result isn't genuine and have heard of similar results before.
    Yeah I wasn't looking to disagree with you. The point about IP tracking still stands, so clearing cache isn't that important.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,714
    williamglenn said:

    The BBC has picked up the Guardian story on Civil Service disquiet about Brexit.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38450840

    "Ministers lack the political courage to admit how complex and time-consuming this will be.

    "When anyone pops their head above the parapet - former permanent secretaries, ex-cabinet secretaries, the Institute for Government - and says this is going to take a long time and it's complex, they are immediately shot down and accused of betraying the will of the people."

    "Civil service disquiet"? You mean the leader of the civil service union, surely?
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    rcs1000 said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    nunu said:

    isam said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    https://twitter.com/MattSingh_/status/813681135272206337

    Where were the 130 allegations? Widespread or concentrated?
    It's in white working class areas. Fu8ing racist piece of shits....Is that what you wanted to know?
    Enter the one word "personation" in google search and look at the suggested completions.
    Given how much Google now personalises autocomplete, that may say more about you...
    It isn't a subject I have ever googled about until yesterday.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1596032/vote-rigging-in-muslim-communities-goes-unchallenged-because-pc-police-are-scared-of-causing-offence/
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/11/election-fraud-allowed-to-take-place-in-muslim-communities-becau/
    rcs1000 said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    nunu said:

    isam said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    https://twitter.com/MattSingh_/status/813681135272206337

    Where were the 130 allegations? Widespread or concentrated?
    It's in white working class areas. Fu8ing racist piece of shits....Is that what you wanted to know?
    Enter the one word "personation" in google search and look at the suggested completions.
    Given how much Google now personalises autocomplete, that may say more about you...
    Nope; only discovered that yesterday when I wanted to check I had the right word. Are you getting a different result?

    The Electoral Commission seems happy to go on the record about this: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/11373206/Ballot-rigging-risk-in-Pakistani-and-Bangladeshi-communities.html
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,318
    edited December 2016
    williamglenn said:

    The BBC has picked up the Guardian story on Civil Service disquiet about Brexit.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38450840

    "Ministers lack the political courage to admit how complex and time-consuming this will be.

    "When anyone pops their head above the parapet - former permanent secretaries, ex-cabinet secretaries, the Institute for Government - and says this is going to take a long time and it's complex, they are immediately shot down and accused of betraying the will of the people."

    The government knows its market. We the populus can't handle the truth complexities of trade deal negotiations.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    williamglenn said:

    The BBC has picked up the Guardian story on Civil Service disquiet about Brexit.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38450840

    "Ministers lack the political courage to admit how complex and time-consuming this will be.

    "When anyone pops their head above the parapet - former permanent secretaries, ex-cabinet secretaries, the Institute for Government - and says this is going to take a long time and it's complex, they are immediately shot down and accused of betraying the will of the people."

    But..but...but .....Ted Heath described this as a simple little thing, nothing more than a common market .....so nothing to worry our pretty little "peasant heads" about.

    Someone either then or along the way has been telling some huge porkies
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,318
    Moses_ said:

    williamglenn said:

    The BBC has picked up the Guardian story on Civil Service disquiet about Brexit.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38450840

    "Ministers lack the political courage to admit how complex and time-consuming this will be.

    "When anyone pops their head above the parapet - former permanent secretaries, ex-cabinet secretaries, the Institute for Government - and says this is going to take a long time and it's complex, they are immediately shot down and accused of betraying the will of the people."

    But..but...but .....Ted Heath described this as a simple little thing, nothing more than a common market .....so nothing to worry our pretty little "peasant heads" about.

    Someone either then or along the way has been telling some huge porkies
    Buying a house is a fairly straightforward process. Millions of examples. Have you ever once looked at the contract you have "exchanged"? Plenty complex, takes an immense amount of time, even when it's supposed to be standard, and is frought with disagreement over the detail.

    And we will need to draw up these from scratch in thousands upon thousands of instances.
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