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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » YouGov finds big decline in those thinking that LAB will wi

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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Jonathan said:

    Anecdote alert. Help to buy is very popular with some of my colleagues. Some issues with small print, but otherwise addressing a personal need directly. A potent policy.

    Polling told us that at the time of the budget. The commentariat doesn't always reflect the views of the general public. This is just such a topic - no doubt because the commentariat comprises people affluent enough and old enough to be on the property ladder who see only drawbacks.

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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Plato said:

    And for nostalgia fans

    RT @LabourHistory: Today in 2007 Gordon Brown announced that he would not call an early general election: news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7031749.s…

    Even pb Tories must have seen that this was bad news for Cameron ??? :)
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Jonathan said:

    Anecdote alert. Help to buy is very popular with some of my colleagues. Some issues with small print, but otherwise addressing a personal need directly. A potent policy.

    I think that's absolutely the right assessment.

    Of course there is a theoretical risk that it could overheat the market, but I don't think that is very likely. Potentially more of an issue in London - but arguably that is where people need the most help as well.

    I think the amendments giving the BoE more flexibility are probably a good thing but overall the policy should be beneficial on the micro level and not do too much harm on the macro level. The key thing is to make sure that it is restricted and time-limited. If it becomes permanent that would be a bad thing.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    What, exactly, is Adam Afriyie up to?

    Attention seeking.

    He's got a cat's chance in hell of succeeding Cameron. I think there is some personal bad blood for some reason - probably thwarted ambition and Afriyie's belief that his incredible talents have been inexplicably overlooked.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,266

    surbiton said:

    JackW said:

    "AN INDEPENDENT Scotland could not expect to automatically inherit the country’s ­historic regiments nor the servicemen and women who serve in them, Defence Secretary Philip Hammond will ­insist this week."

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/scottish-independence-warning-over-scots-regiments-1-3128366

    Remind me, which country do the Irish Guards serve?

    The answer is of course the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

    Should Scots vote for independence then the historic Scottish regiments should go with them.

    Whatever Hammond says, the practicalities will ensure that they will become Scottish sooner or later. After all, where are the regimental headquarters based ?
    I assume that for army units, it will be the equivalent Scottish Division / Royal Regiment:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Division
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Regiment_of_Scotland

    All of whom are HQ'd in either Scotland, Germany, or in one case, Canterbury (which will move to Scotland after an FI deployment). It would make sense for these to be ceded to Scotland post-independence, especially as their recruitment areas are in Scotland, and the historical links.

    It is possible that there are more regiments based in Scotland than Scotland will need post-independence. Since the SNP's military policy seems rather nebulous, who knows?
    there are very few units based in Scotland, less than 11,000 personnel, we just pay for plenty more. Another union bonus. These clowns talk about defending the country and last time the Russian fleet anchored off the coast it took London 3 days to get a wheezing old bathtub up there from south coast and they were gone. These idiots have no clue whatsoever.
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    CarolaCarola Posts: 1,805
    Afriyie on Sky.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    DavidL said:

    When you see stories like this: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10357189/Green-energy-to-cost-consumers-400-over-next-five-years.html

    And this: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/10358461/Carbon-tax-too-expensive-says-industry.html

    we begin to see what a mess we have got ourselves into with carbon taxes and subsidised green energy. I think there is a real opportunity here for the tories (the other parties are completely wedded to it) to break with the consensus. Osborne hinted at it at Conference when he said that it was not necessary for the UK to be in the vanguard in these areas.

    A tory policy that achieves cuts (or at least reduced increases) in energy bills by scaling back the subsidies quite aggressively would be very popular. I would not be surprised to see it be especially popular with UKIP supporters. It would also place an uncomfortable spotlight on the role the Ed played into getting us into this mess.

    It will be difficult to do much this side of the election given the Lib Dem approach but I would be surprised if this was not a major plank of the tory election campaign.

    I think the trick would be with both carbon costs and with DfID to slow the ramp up.

    So on both you perhaps say the "target is the same, but we are going to delay it by 5 years".

    That way, hopefully, you can square the circle. And then, in due course, you can scrap the carbon approach, but you would probably need a majority Tory government to achieve that.

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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Dan Hodges: "Next week's Labour reshuffle has now boiled down to whether or not Ed Miliband sacks Andy Burnham."

    Mebbe that explains the suing thing. Not sure which way it plays though:

    (1) Step down to sue - that's tradition
    (2) You can't sack me: that would look like you are admitting fault
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    On Afriye: he's a twonk after media attention. I'm all for a referendum, but he doesn't really think he'll achieve one. He's just shit-stirring to make himself look good to with those without any bloody sense.

    This is probably true, but the same applies to the people bringing the original private member's bill that he's pretending to try to amend.
    I thought the original PMB was with Cameron's blessing to try and find a cute way of making it looked like the Tory party of the government cared about the issue.

    Slightly different to a single attention-seeker
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Matthew d'Ancona @MatthewdAncona
    .@paulwaugh it was first popularised by Gordon Brown after the Routledge book. 'Tittle-tattle' = an undeniable truth I refuse to discuss
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Grandiose said:

    Charles said:

    Millsy said:

    In summary: Miliband doing well to get lefties on his side (again). After all, disheartened party supporters won't pound the streets for you.

    From the ST YouGov polling it appears Miliband is the only winner from the conference season, increasing his support (from a very low base) among lefties.

    Miliband with voting groups:
    Lab +55
    L10 +32
    LD10 +26

    How does this work?

    I assumed that L10 and LD10 are the biggest components of Lnow. If they are both in the 25-35 range, how come the overall Lnow rating is at +55? What am I missing?
    I assume it's just that the L10 and LD10 that are Lnow are not a representative sample, they disproportionately back Miliband.
    Fair enough. I misread as being LD10 now voting Labour. OGH has me well trained ;-)
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    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    Is this "what do you think is the most likely outcome of GE2015" a new move from YouGov? They seem to be following ICM's wisdom index.
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    SeanT said:
    That really is very good.

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    EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    Good morning all and I see there has been some speculation as to what would happen to Scottish regiments post a YES vote.

    I concur with Jack W. The Scots regiments would pass out of the armed forces of the remains of the UK and into that of Scotland. The London government may choose to retain a battalion with the name "Scots" in it to act as an attraction to e.g. young men from Corby who feel more Scots than English. After all at Culloden there was both the Royal Scots, a regular regiment in the British army and the Royal Scots, a regiment in the French army originally created for the sons of fugitive Jacobites and others.

    In Scotland there is still a strong tradition of local recruitment for the local former regiments now battalions forming the RRS. There is still a great deal of resentment at the amalgamation of the distinct, historical Scottish regiments firstly into pan-regional regiments and more recently into the RRS. It is hard to see many young Scotsmen (and women) living in a separate Scotland wanting to serve in the armed forces of what would by then be a neighbouring but foreign country. Doubt there are many Slovaks serving in the Czech army or vice versa.
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    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    tim said:

    Ashcroft Polling Con held Labour target seats

    "Which of the three main parties would do the best job in dealing with each of the following issues?"

    NHS

    Con 22
    Lab 54.


    The idea that Jeremy Hunt is really cutting through exists only in the imagination of the PB Tories.

    Mr Burnham seems pretty rattled.
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,161
    Charles said:

    On Afriye: he's a twonk after media attention. I'm all for a referendum, but he doesn't really think he'll achieve one. He's just shit-stirring to make himself look good to with those without any bloody sense.

    This is probably true, but the same applies to the people bringing the original private member's bill that he's pretending to try to amend.
    I thought the original PMB was with Cameron's blessing to try and find a cute way of making it looked like the Tory party of the government cared about the issue.

    Slightly different to a single attention-seeker
    IIUC the original motion was either attention-seeking or a way to nail down what were then some potential weasel-holes in Cameron's referendum promise, or a combination of both. The leadership then got pressured into supporting it.
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    On Afriye: he's a twonk after media attention. I'm all for a referendum, but he doesn't really think he'll achieve one. He's just shit-stirring to make himself look good to with those without any bloody sense.

    If the Conservative MPs all voted for one, the numbers are there.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/8847123/EU-referendum-how-the-MPs-voted.html
    I think the problem with the Afriye approach for those who would like an early referendum is that Cameron may well pull the whole bill rather than let the amendment stand.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited October 2013
    Oh dear

    Guido Fawkes @GuidoFawkes
    On the day victims' families launched Mid Staffs campaign, @andyburnhammp's department bought 18 bottle of champagne guyfawk.es/1ac83go

    Guido can reveal that on the day families of Mid Staffs victims launched a campaign in memory of those who died of neglect, with patients forced to drink water from vases, Burnham’s department bought 18 bottles of Charles Lafitte champagne with taxpayers’ money.

    The then Health Secretary then cancelled a meeting with the campaigners at the last minute. Just what was so important? Burnham’s diary shows he spent that day at a trade union-backed forum.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Peter Carter-Ruck supposedly used to say:

    "I run my office on the fees I charge clients who I advise not to sue for libel. I run my Rolls- Royce on the fees from clients who ignore my advice."

    (Incidentally, I searched for that quote and got a single result. Not a strict googlewhack, but still.)
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited October 2013
    antifrank said:

    Peter Carter-Ruck supposedly used to say:

    "I run my office on the fees I charge clients who I advise not to sue for libel. I run my Rolls- Royce on the fees from clients who ignore my advice."

    (Incidentally, I searched for that quote and got a single result. Not a strict googlewhack, but still.)

    Now there are three results....
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Charles said:

    antifrank said:

    Peter Carter-Ruck supposedly used to say:

    "I run my office on the fees I charge clients who I advise not to sue for libel. I run my Rolls- Royce on the fees from clients who ignore my advice."

    (Incidentally, I searched for that quote and got a single result. Not a strict googlewhack, but still.)

    Now there are three results....
    I'm amazed there's that many - there's one very prominent libel lawyers who despite having oodles of articles written about their appalling advice to a celebrity have nothing on Google's search results!
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    isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited October 2013
    Plato said:

    TGOHF said:

    Total lack of support for Burnham from his fellow scousers on here - even when he plays the victim card.

    He's doomed.

    Labour is now the Cry Babies Party = how pathetic this all is. Playing the victim isn't a trait I've ever sought in a leader.
    Plato you just criticise EdM at every opportunity, 100% negative comments regarding him from you since he has been Lab Leader. It is so predictable as to have become silly.

    The fact is that overwhelmingly the public think the Mail were out of order and Ed is the victim here. Any reasonable person would defend their fathers name if it were associated with words like 'hate' and 'evil', and only the most partisan would refuse to shift from their broken record criticism

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    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    edited October 2013

    On Afriye: he's a twonk after media attention. I'm all for a referendum, but he doesn't really think he'll achieve one. He's just shit-stirring to make himself look good to with those without any bloody sense.

    If the Conservative MPs all voted for one, the numbers are there.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/8847123/EU-referendum-how-the-MPs-voted.html
    I think the problem with the Afriye approach for those who would like an early referendum is that Cameron may well pull the whole bill rather than let the amendment stand.
    That's only a problem if you think Mr Cameron both intends to hold a 2017 in/out referendum and is likely to win the 2015 general election.

    The offer can still be included in the Conservatives 2015 manifesto.
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,161
    edited October 2013

    On Afriye: he's a twonk after media attention. I'm all for a referendum, but he doesn't really think he'll achieve one. He's just shit-stirring to make himself look good to with those without any bloody sense.

    If the Conservative MPs all voted for one, the numbers are there.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/8847123/EU-referendum-how-the-MPs-voted.html
    I think the problem with the Afriye approach for those who would like an early referendum is that Cameron may well pull the whole bill rather than let the amendment stand.
    That's only a problem if you think Mr Cameron both intends to hold a 2017 in/out referendum and is likely to win the 2015 general election.

    The offer can still be included in the Conservatives 2015 manifesto.
    Right, the bill is neither here nor there, unless you think:
    a) If reelected Cameron wouldn't really deliver the referendum he says he would.
    b) He'd be strong enough to fail to deliver and keep his job, but not strong enough to amend the bill to kick the can down the road, or whatever he'd do to weasel out of the referendum.

    Edited to add: Obviously changing it to a pre-election referendum would make it meaningful, if it could actually pass in that form.
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    CarolaCarola Posts: 1,805
    I'm not convinced by Ed myself, anyway, but...

    I think he needs to tie up tactics, like the Goliath-BAITing for example, into a clearer strategy. Not going to let vested interests like media, unions, business blah blah interfere with... etc

    OMG SKYPAPERS IS 2/3 A LEFTIE-FEST!!!! PITCHFORKS AHOY!
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    isam said:

    Plato said:

    TGOHF said:

    Total lack of support for Burnham from his fellow scousers on here - even when he plays the victim card.

    He's doomed.

    Labour is now the Cry Babies Party = how pathetic this all is. Playing the victim isn't a trait I've ever sought in a leader.
    Plato you just criticise EdM at every opportunity, 100% negative comments regarding him from you since he has been Lab Leader. It is so predictable as to have become silly.

    The fact is that overwhelmingly the public think the Mail were out of order and Ed is the victim here. Any reasonable person would defend their fathers name if it were associated with words like 'hate' and 'evil', and only the most partisan would refuse to shift from their broken record criticism

    Defending their father's name and reputation can always be challenged.

    For one of the more, ahem, interesting cases, see

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gudrun_Burwitz
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Was Stafford an isolated case or are the same issues to be found elsewhere? This is one of the key issues, and in 2010 the NHS commisioned some proper research on this, from an academic rather than inquiry type perspective. The preliminary report can be found here:

    http://m.qualitysafety.bmj.com/content/early/2013/08/28/bmjqs-2013-001947.full

    It backs up my anecdotes that the dysfunctional management of New Labours NHS plan was more extensive than Stafford.
    Plato said:

    Oh dear

    Guido Fawkes @GuidoFawkes
    On the day victims' families launched Mid Staffs campaign, @andyburnhammp's department bought 18 bottle of champagne guyfawk.es/1ac83go

    Guido can reveal that on the day families of Mid Staffs victims launched a campaign in memory of those who died of neglect, with patients forced to drink water from vases, Burnham’s department bought 18 bottles of Charles Lafitte champagne with taxpayers’ money.

    The then Health Secretary then cancelled a meeting with the campaigners at the last minute. Just what was so important? Burnham’s diary shows he spent that day at a trade union-backed forum.

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    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    edited October 2013


    Edited to add: Obviously changing it to a pre-election referendum would make it meaningful, if it could actually pass in that form.

    _Trying_ to pass a pre-election referendum does at least indicate sincerity.

    Offering a 2017 referendum, having voted against a referendum in 2011, looks insincere.

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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,916

    SeanT said:
    That really is very good.
    Agree - good article.

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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,266
    isam said:

    Plato said:

    TGOHF said:

    Total lack of support for Burnham from his fellow scousers on here - even when he plays the victim card.

    He's doomed.

    Labour is now the Cry Babies Party = how pathetic this all is. Playing the victim isn't a trait I've ever sought in a leader.
    Plato you just criticise EdM at every opportunity, 100% negative comments regarding him from you since he has been Lab Leader. It is so predictable as to have become silly.

    The fact is that overwhelmingly the public think the Mail were out of order and Ed is the victim here. Any reasonable person would defend their fathers name if it were associated with words like 'hate' and 'evil', and only the most partisan would refuse to shift from their broken record criticism

    He is still crap
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    stjohnstjohn Posts: 1,781
    It sometimes easy to forget just how influential this website can be.

    There is an issue that has been exercising my mind all morning but I had no firm view until visiting here. Now it's clear as day what needs to happen. Having read Sean T this morning, I have made my decision. It's poached eggs for breakfast.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited October 2013
    Off the top of my head - we had problems in the NHS in Tameside, Stafford, Morecombe and I another in Kent IIRC that were broadly similar - and of course the CQC covering stuff up.

    It seems likely that there are pockets that are worse than others but it was the culture fostered/bad figure-fiddling practices that spread. There are several reports of *experts* in figure fiddling sharing their erm best practice.

    "A whistleblower claimed last night that she was hired by an NHS hospital to fiddle its shocking death rates. As hundreds of patients died needlessly, Sandra Haynes Kirkbright says she was headhunted by hospital bosses and asked to 'fix' the figures.

    She claims 'every rule in the book' was broken to try to improve mortality rates – without saving lives. The data recorder says she was suspended after refusing to take part in a cover-up, and even claims she was ordered not to put her concerns in writing in case they reached the Press.

    The astonishing allegations – which are denied by the hospital – have emerged days after the chief executive of another NHS Trust, in Bolton, was forced aside over a possible cover-up of high death rates. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2286770/Expert-claims-NHS-ordered-cover-Hospital-hired-fiddle-death-figures.html

    Was Stafford an isolated case or are the same issues to be found elsewhere? This is one of the key issues, and in 2010 the NHS commisioned some proper research on this, from an academic rather than inquiry type perspective. The preliminary report can be found here:

    http://m.qualitysafety.bmj.com/content/early/2013/08/28/bmjqs-2013-001947.full

    It backs up my anecdotes that the dysfunctional management of New Labours NHS plan was more extensive than Stafford.


    Plato said:

    Oh dear

    Guido Fawkes @GuidoFawkes
    On the day victims' families launched Mid Staffs campaign, @andyburnhammp's department bought 18 bottle of champagne guyfawk.es/1ac83go

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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,161


    Edited to add: Obviously changing it to a pre-election referendum would make it meaningful, if it could actually pass in that form.

    _Trying_ to pass a pre-election referendum does at least indicate sincerity.

    Offering a 2017 referendum, having voted against a 2011 referendum, looks insincere.

    I'm not sure whether you're talking about perception or reality - perception-wise you may be right, to the extent that anybody's paying attention to how people voted in 2011. Reality-wise the standard procedure for referendums is to support them, but only when you're not in a position to actually deliver them.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Surprisingly large numbers of the British army are not UK citizens. Obviously are the Gurkhas, but also West Indians, Irish and Fijians feature strongly.

    In part this is because of the opportunity to travel, trai and fight in parts of the world that their own nations do not want to. Many recruits wish to test themselves on active service. If theIndependent Scotland only deploys forces on UN duties, and aims for local defence rather than expeditionary fighting with interesting kit, objectives and enemies then restless young men in Scotland may wish to enlist in rUK "Scottish" unit. I am sure that they would be welcome.

    Good morning all and I see there has been some speculation as to what would happen to Scottish regiments post a YES vote.

    I concur with Jack W. The Scots regiments would pass out of the armed forces of the remains of the UK and into that of Scotland. The London government may choose to retain a battalion with the name "Scots" in it to act as an attraction to e.g. young men from Corby who feel more Scots than English. After all at Culloden there was both the Royal Scots, a regular regiment in the British army and the Royal Scots, a regiment in the French army originally created for the sons of fugitive Jacobites and others.

    In Scotland there is still a strong tradition of local recruitment for the local former regiments now battalions forming the RRS. There is still a great deal of resentment at the amalgamation of the distinct, historical Scottish regiments firstly into pan-regional regiments and more recently into the RRS. It is hard to see many young Scotsmen (and women) living in a separate Scotland wanting to serve in the armed forces of what would by then be a neighbouring but foreign country. Doubt there are many Slovaks serving in the Czech army or vice versa.

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    Except that didn't happen. But you only have to go back to threads earlier in the week to see certain posters talking excitedly about Ed's folly in attacking the Mail, about deep holes being dug and so on.

    If the polls are correct what seems to have happened is what some of us thought might - Ed has seen his ratings improve among Labour-leaners; ie, the people whose votes he needs to get to win in 2015. It has passed everyone else by,

    I also remember some, pre-conference season, speculating about possible one-off Tory leads in YGs in the immediate aftermath of the Tory conference. That hasn't happened either.

    And yet only yesterday you were agreeing that mailgate would change nothing. ho hum.

    It won't. But it may reinforce the status quo. And given that is a Labour lead, that could be significant. We'll see; though I suspect SeanT is right and Ed's essential crapness will see him drift down again.

    And the status quo is Ed is crap, and now possibly stupid. If he's picked a needless fight to prove he's a tough guy to his core supporters, that suggests his core supporters see him as weak and flailing. And while I agree with your argument that the Mail was always going to have a go at him, the nature of what he has done will add a degree of vengefulness that was not previously there imo. So stupid as he hasn't thought it through.
    Everything he's done since the weak TUC conference speech (anyone notice how his 'getting tough with the unions has evaporated into the ether?) through his leader's speech and Ralphgate has been about one thing...shoring up his base. The question is...in pandering to his core vote what impact will it have on the waverers in 2015? Will they turn out for him? He is in danger of painting himself into a corner. If Clegg begins to dress to the left (or someone like Farron replaces him) Wallace could find himself in the wrong trousers again.

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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    This really does sum it up - from Rod Liddle in the Speccy.

    "Has there been a more emetic sight than Alastair Campbell touring the radio and TV studios lecturing the world on moral probity? I can’t think of one, offhand. The BBC, an institution he once tried to destroy, if you recall, is more than happy to shove him on air whensoever he feels like it. I assume that this is because, like Campbell, they are intent on turning the Daily Mail-Miliband farrago into a post-Leveson issue about the nature of journalism.

    As some of us said at the time of Leveson, the metro-liberal left does not really give a toss about intrusion into the lives of drug-addled slebs. It wishes instead to stop newspapers saying stuff with which they fervently disagree. David Sillitoe’s piece for the BBC last night confirmed this; and if the BBC can make use of Alastair Campbell for this purpose, then so be it."
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    CarolaCarola Posts: 1,805
    SeanT said:

    Carola said:

    I'm not convinced by Ed myself, anyway, but...

    I think he needs to tie up tactics, like the Goliath-BAITing for example, into a clearer strategy. Not going to let vested interests like media, unions, business blah blah interfere with... etc

    OMG SKYPAPERS IS 2/3 A LEFTIE-FEST!!!! PITCHFORKS AHOY!

    That would work, if he hadn't just completely caved in to the unions. This David-Goliath stuff is so much crap. Ed goes after unpopular powers-that-be on the Right. It pleases his core vote and a few waverers, and he reckons this will see him home to a GE win.

    He could be correct. But the "Ed is so brave" stuff is embarrassing nonsense. He's a politician.
    I didn't say I believed it was more than politicoguff. Or even anything but haphazard bumbling from one confrontation to the next. But if you're going to convince anyone, you need a strategy. And an upfront public one in this case, if it's a case.

    'Bait' not meant to be in caps like I think it's important, btw.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Crikey - this is like Jonathon Aitken's airline tickets!

    Guido Fawkes @GuidoFawkes
    Just should warn @andyburnhammp if in desperation to hold on to his job he threatens to sue us. We have the receipts for the champagne...
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,346
    I have long felt the result would be something like 41% Tory, 36% Labour, 13% LD. If UKIP falls to 5% and that all goes to the Tories you get to 41%, and if 2% switches from Labour to the LDs you indeed get to 36% Labour, 13% LD. All to play for, but what is clear is how crucial the UKIP vote now is
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    SeanT said:

    Carola said:

    I'm not convinced by Ed myself, anyway, but...
    !
    I think he needs to tie up tactics, like the Goliath-BAITing for example, into a clearer strategy. Not going to let vested interests like media, unions, business blah blah interfere with... etc

    OMG SKYPAPERS IS 2/3 A LEFTIE-FEST!!!! PITCHFORKS AHOY!

    That would work, if he hadn't just completely caved in to the unions. This David-Goliath stuff is so much crap. Ed goes after unpopular powers-that-be on the Right. It pleases his core vote and a few waverers, and he reckons this will see him home to a GE win.

    He could be correct. But the "Ed is so brave" stuff is embarrassing nonsense. He's a politician.
    You have to wonder about the influence of twitter.


    People follow people who share their views - everyone tweets what everyone wants to hear and no dissenting voices.

    Little wonder that certain groups think in ever decreasing circles and think this represents the world at large rather than just their own groupthink.
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    SMukesh said:



    Financier said:

    SMukesh said:

    The right-wing rags are becoming unworthy of a read.

    The Telegraph front page is about one Conservative MP complaining about the BBC coverage being biased.A blatant attempt to cow the BBC down.It is usually the job of the Mail but now that it is alleged that the Mail is anti-BBC,the Telegraph takes up the mantle of harassing the BBC.

    What do they want?That the BBC should not give air-time to the leader of the opposition when there is a major feud between him and a premier publication?Absolute nonsense.

    So why are the left-wing rags worthy of a read?
    They certainly are not the bullies that the right-wing rags are.

    The righties seem to be anti-everyone who doesnt agree with their point of view and spin like hell to the point that most reading them do so for entertainment rather than enlightenment.
    LOl - Spintastic.

    As if lefties would ever do such a thing... oh
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 41,118

    SeanT said:
    That really is very good.
    Agree - good article.

    Why the surprise? PeterHitchens is a fantastic writer and one of the few genuinely independent thinkers left
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,161
    edited October 2013
    TGOHF said:

    SeanT said:

    Carola said:

    I'm not convinced by Ed myself, anyway, but...
    !
    I think he needs to tie up tactics, like the Goliath-BAITing for example, into a clearer strategy. Not going to let vested interests like media, unions, business blah blah interfere with... etc

    OMG SKYPAPERS IS 2/3 A LEFTIE-FEST!!!! PITCHFORKS AHOY!

    That would work, if he hadn't just completely caved in to the unions. This David-Goliath stuff is so much crap. Ed goes after unpopular powers-that-be on the Right. It pleases his core vote and a few waverers, and he reckons this will see him home to a GE win.

    He could be correct. But the "Ed is so brave" stuff is embarrassing nonsense. He's a politician.
    You have to wonder about the influence of twitter.


    People follow people who share their views - everyone tweets what everyone wants to hear and no dissenting voices.

    Little wonder that certain groups think in ever decreasing circles and think this represents the world at large rather than just their own groupthink.
    I was thinking a thing we should start on twitter is for people to run anti-x twitter accounts to give an alternative perspective to x, eg if you follow Ed_Miliband you can also follow anti_Ed_Miliband that will retweet stuff with a different opinion to Ed Miliband. If a reasonable number of people get into the habit of following anti-x when they follow x Twitter should automatically start suggesting anti-x as a good account to follow to people who are following x.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Surprisingly large numbers of the British army are not UK citizens. Obviously are the Gurkhas, but also West Indians, Irish and Fijians feature strongly.

    In part this is because of the opportunity to travel, trai and fight in parts of the world that their own nations do not want to. Many recruits wish to test themselves on active service. If theIndependent Scotland only deploys forces on UN duties, and aims for local defence rather than expeditionary fighting with interesting kit, objectives and enemies then restless young men in Scotland may wish to enlist in rUK "Scottish" unit. I am sure that they would be welcome.

    Good morning all and I see there has been some speculation as to what would happen to Scottish regiments post a YES vote.

    I concur with Jack W. The Scots regiments would pass out of the armed forces of the remains of the UK and into that of Scotland. The London government may choose to retain a battalion with the name "Scots" in it to act as an attraction to e.g. young men from Corby who feel more Scots than English. After all at Culloden there was both the Royal Scots, a regular regiment in the British army and the Royal Scots, a regiment in the French army originally created for the sons of fugitive Jacobites and others.

    In Scotland there is still a strong tradition of local recruitment for the local former regiments now battalions forming the RRS. There is still a great deal of resentment at the amalgamation of the distinct, historical Scottish regiments firstly into pan-regional regiments and more recently into the RRS. It is hard to see many young Scotsmen (and women) living in a separate Scotland wanting to serve in the armed forces of what would by then be a neighbouring but foreign country. Doubt there are many Slovaks serving in the Czech army or vice versa.

    A lot of it is to do with domestic career prospects. For instance, Gurkhas earn significantly above the domestic income levels that can be secured (are they still at a discounted rate vs. the rest of the UK army?) Even after high cost of living, the remittances allow their families a very comfortable life at home.

    I think you would get into trouble with some on here if you suggested that might be a motivating factor for Scots to serve in an rUK army... ;-)
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    CarolaCarola Posts: 1,805
    SeanT said:

    tim said:

    @SeanT

    "10% of Britons (5.1 million people) are likely to buy a new home in the next 12 months"

    Did that stat not stand out as obviously ridiculous immediately to you?

    Um, no:

    "According to the national census, it’s believed that more than 6 million people move house every year. One in eight members of the UK population or 6.3 million householders changed addresses in the year before the survey was taken in 2001."

    lol

    http://uk.ask.com/question/how-many-people-move-house-each-year
    Move house or buy one?
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,346
    I see Anthony Seldon, head of Wellington College, has joined the attack against the Mail, may held the Mail though as it can portray itself as the voice of Middle England against the Toffs and left-wing intellectuals and the welfare dependent underclass
    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/10/06/daily-mail-attacked-by-headmaster_n_4052255.html?icid=maing-grid7|ukt4|dl1|sec1_lnk2&pLid=213891
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Plato said:

    Crikey - this is like Jonathon Aitken's airline tickets!

    Guido Fawkes @GuidoFawkes
    Just should warn @andyburnhammp if in desperation to hold on to his job he threatens to sue us. We have the receipts for the champagne...

    Excuse me?!

    Aitken's airline tickets were proof (IIRC) that he had committed perjury.

    The champagne receipts are proof that someone in Burnham's office/department (?) bought some champagne, coincidentally on a day that a (justified) campaign was launched. Cancelling the meeting to go to a trade-union sponsored forum perhaps shows a lack of judgement, but not really a smoking gun.

    Sometimes, Plato, you need to be a little more discerning about what you get worked up about!
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Surely Twitter is *social media* - its not there to be some socialist balanced view of the world where you get dished up a range of people you'd never talk to if you had the choice.

    I follow about 30% of people I disagree quite a lot on politics because I like them for other things inc quite a few Tories and Kippers who are way to the right of me and Labourites off to the Left. Another 30% who like cats, talking US TV and tweet good pix and another 40% who I agree with mostly, also like cats and jokes and nerdy stuff.

    The number of Twitterers who's main interest is just politics must be fairly small and very nerdy.

    TGOHF said:

    SeanT said:

    Carola said:

    I'm not convinced by Ed myself, anyway, but...
    !
    I think he needs to tie up tactics, like the Goliath-BAITing for example, into a clearer strategy. Not going to let vested interests like media, unions, business blah blah interfere with... etc

    OMG SKYPAPERS IS 2/3 A LEFTIE-FEST!!!! PITCHFORKS AHOY!

    That would work, if he hadn't just completely caved in to the unions. This David-Goliath stuff is so much crap. Ed goes after unpopular powers-that-be on the Right. It pleases his core vote and a few waverers, and he reckons this will see him home to a GE win.

    He could be correct. But the "Ed is so brave" stuff is embarrassing nonsense. He's a politician.
    I was thinking a thing we should start on twitter is for people to run anti-x twitter accounts to give an alternative perspective to x, eg if you follow Ed_Miliband you can also follow anti_Ed_Miliband that will retweet stuff with a different opinion to Ed Miliband. If a reasonable number of people get into the habit of following anti-x when they follow x Twitter should automatically start suggesting anti-x as a good account to follow to people who are following x.
  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited October 2013
    Your sarcasm meter has broken, Charles!!

    May I recommend this app? http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/compost/wp/2013/07/11/sarcasm-detector-im-really-excited/
    Charles said:

    Plato said:

    Crikey - this is like Jonathon Aitken's airline tickets!

    Guido Fawkes @GuidoFawkes
    Just should warn @andyburnhammp if in desperation to hold on to his job he threatens to sue us. We have the receipts for the champagne...

    Excuse me?!

    Aitken's airline tickets were proof (IIRC) that he had committed perjury.

    The champagne receipts are proof that someone in Burnham's office/department (?) bought some champagne, coincidentally on a day that a (justified) campaign was launched. Cancelling the meeting to go to a trade-union sponsored forum perhaps shows a lack of judgement, but not really a smoking gun.

    Sometimes, Plato, you need to be a little more discerning about what you get worked up about!
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    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    Carola said:

    SeanT said:

    tim said:

    @SeanT

    "10% of Britons (5.1 million people) are likely to buy a new home in the next 12 months"

    Did that stat not stand out as obviously ridiculous immediately to you?

    Um, no:

    "According to the national census, it’s believed that more than 6 million people move house every year. One in eight members of the UK population or 6.3 million householders changed addresses in the year before the survey was taken in 2001."

    lol

    http://uk.ask.com/question/how-many-people-move-house-each-year
    Move house or buy one?
    Anecdote. When I applied for my mortgage a few years ago, the Nationwide bod selling the mortgage pushed an interest only option, saying people moved on average every five years.
  • Options
    initforthemoneyinitforthemoney Posts: 736
    edited October 2013
    fwiw i was polled by ipsos-mori re: scottish independence by phone on friday evening.
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,161
    tim said:

    @Edmundintokyo

    Isn't the danger for a private members bill that the people who want a referendum next year just talk it out?

    My assumption was that the whole thing is going to get talked out in any case, unless all the parties decide to promise referendums in their manifestos. So it looks to me like the whole thing is just grandstanding, although I suppose if somebody cocks up their strategy there are ways for grandstanding to accidentally turn into something meaningful.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I suppose he could be a serial killer in waiting - but this seems rather OTT

    "A MAN has been charged by police for staring at Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon in her office. Dogan Arslan, 47, is accused of staring at the SNP politician and her constituency office in Glasgow’s Pollokshaws Road from a parked car outside.

    Arslan, from the city’s Battlefield, is alleged to have carried out the offence between last October and December. He is due to appear at the city’s sheriff court this week where he’s accused of causing “fear and alarm” to people including Sturgeon. Court papers say he “repeatedly loitered” within a car and stared at the office and Sturgeon. http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/man-appears-court-accused-staring-2343855
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    I am sure that money comes into it, but it is not the whole story.

    Much of the forces is in highly technical roles, even within Infantry Regiments. Would an Independent Scottish force have the same training and promotion prospects as well as opportunities to work in highly technical areas as recruits into the Royal Signals, REME, Royal Logistical Corps, SAS, Royal Marines, SBS, pointy nose jets, blue water ships, submarines or Aircraft carriers?

    More fun than standing in a kilt for photographs in a guardbox outside Salmonds office, and skills that transfer well into civilian life.
    Charles said:

    Surprisingly large numbers of the British army are not UK citizens. Obviously are the Gurkhas, but also West Indians, Irish and Fijians feature strongly.

    In part this is because of the opportunity to travel, trai and fight in parts of the world that their own nations do not want to. Many recruits wish to test themselves on active service. If theIndependent Scotland only deploys forces on UN duties, and aims for local defence rather than expeditionary fighting with interesting kit, objectives and enemies then restless young men in Scotland may wish to enlist in rUK "Scottish" unit. I am sure that they would be welcome.

    Good morning all and I see there has been some speculation as to what would happen to Scottish regiments post a YES vote.

    I concur with Jack W. The Scots regiments would pass out of the armed forces of the remains of the UK and into that of Scotland. The London government may choose to retain a battalion with the name "Scots" in it to act as an attraction to e.g. young men from Corby who feel more Scots than English. After all at Culloden there was both the Royal Scots, a regular regiment in the British army and the Royal Scots, a regiment in the French army originally created for

    A lot of it is to do with domestic career prospects. For instance, Gurkhas earn significantly above the domestic income levels that can be secured (are they still at a discounted rate vs. the rest of the UK army?) Even after high cost of living, the remittances allow their families a very comfortable life at home.

    I think you would get into trouble with some on here if you suggested that might be a motivating factor for Scots to serve in an rUK army... ;-)
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,916
    HYUFD said:

    I see Anthony Seldon, head of Wellington College, has joined the attack against the Mail, may held the Mail though as it can portray itself as the voice of Middle England against the Toffs and left-wing intellectuals and the welfare dependent underclass

    Is that the same Anthony Seldon who writes in the Mail?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/search.html?authornamef=Anthony Seldon
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,346
    Tim 50% of Britons are always considering emigrating, wich is not necessarily a bad thing as we are one of the most overpopulated nations on the planet in terms of our size and landmass and net immigration continues to outstrip emigration. If people want to move to somewhere which, by contrast, is rather large and underpopulated like Australia with generally better weather it is hardly the end of the world, and if some people want to retire to Spain or the South of France it is hardly a calamity either!
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,916
    Join the Royal Navy and see the World!

    Join the Scottish Defence Force and see the Clyde!

    But I bet they'll be thrilled not to participate in any more 'inhumane wars'!

    I am sure that money comes into it, but it is not the whole story.

    Charles said:

    Surprisingly large numbers of the British army are not UK citizens. Obviously are the Gurkhas, but also West Indians, Irish and Fijians feature strongly.

    In part this is because of the opportunity to travel, trai and fight in parts of the world that their own nations do not want to. Many recruits wish to test themselves on active service. If theIndependent Scotland only deploys forces on UN duties, and aims for local defence rather than expeditionary fighting with interesting kit, objectives and enemies then restless young men in Scotland may wish to enlist in rUK "Scottish" unit. I am sure that they would be welcome.

    Good morning all and I see there has been some speculation as to what would happen to Scottish regiments post a YES vote.

    I concur with Jack W. The Scots regiments would pass out of the armed forces of the remains of the UK and into that of Scotland. The London government may choose to retain a battalion with the name "Scots" in it to act as an attraction to e.g. young men from Corby who feel more Scots than English. After all at Culloden there was both the Royal Scots, a regular regiment in the British army and the Royal Scots, a regiment in the French army originally created for

    A lot of it is to do with domestic career prospects. For instance, Gurkhas earn significantly above the domestic income levels that can be secured (are they still at a discounted rate vs. the rest of the UK army?) Even after high cost of living, the remittances allow their families a very comfortable life at home.

    I think you would get into trouble with some on here if you suggested that might be a motivating factor for Scots to serve in an rUK army... ;-)
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    stjohnstjohn Posts: 1,781
    I don't know what method Sean T used for the egg poaching but I used this and the result was fabulous. I added a bit of cider vinegar to the water.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIvpbSEboYI
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,916
    Another day, another seat:

    "Nigel Farage considering standing as MP in Folkestone
    Ukip leader says he will stand for parliament in 2015 and has been thinking about targeting the Folkestone and Hythe seat"

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/oct/06/nigel-farage-ukip
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    That vinegar trick is remarkable and not well known - my mother used it. I have no idea how it works - assume its a pH effect on the protein, but it does.
    stjohn said:

    I don't know what method Sean T used for the egg poaching but I used this and the result was fabulous. I added a bit of cider vinegar to the water.

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    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    The public may abhor Ed Miliband, but he is politically quite clever and guileful. The trouble is the public still abhor him.

    "Abhor" is putting it a too strongly, they just think he's a bit rubbish.
    I know what you mean, I hesitated to use that word - and words are my tools (imagine this line spoken in a pretentious Will Selfian voice). Maybe 'abhor' is too strong.

    However the reaction I get from people when I ask them about Ed is surprisingly vehement - and hostile. I've had two centrist, clever, fairly apolitical women independently tell me they 'hate' him. Their word.

    It's a bizarre reaction. I fiercely reject Ed's policies and revile his party but I don't positively hate the man himself.

    So the public feeling about Ed is more averse than 'just thinking he's a bit rubbish'. He seems to irritate them on some deeper level. Almost subconscious. They actively don't like him. Maybe others can explain why. I can't.
    Do you find this reaction specifically among women ?

    They could be reacting to some personal experience (whether fair, real, subconscious or not) of nerdy, ineffectual men who have power because of their privileged backgrounds.

    Or it could be some more general sort of alpha female resentment towards beta males.
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    Plato said:

    Just should warn @andyburnhammp if in desperation to hold on to his job he threatens to sue us. We have the receipts for the champagne...

    This Bolinger Burnham stuff could prove lethal. Miliband and Labour's approach until now is to play the victim card - presenting Burnham as a hapless target of some imagined Tory hate campaign. All nonsense, of course, put plays well with the Left's oppression fantasies. However, when people start flaunting the trappings of opulence in full view of the public - as we saw with Prescott - the comrades can turn, especially if the person in question has nothing else to offer. I suspect Burnham is not long for this earth.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,916
    From earlier this week:

    "The abolition of tuition fees has not encouraged more Scottish children from poor families to go to university, according to an expert report that raised major doubts whether the flagship SNP policy is good value for taxpayers."

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10354393/Free-fees-does-not-help-poor-attend-Scottish-universities.html
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,161

    Another day, another seat:

    "Nigel Farage considering standing as MP in Folkestone
    Ukip leader says he will stand for parliament in 2015 and has been thinking about targeting the Folkestone and Hythe seat"

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/oct/06/nigel-farage-ukip

    What were the other ones on the other days? A Kent seat seems like the obvious move as he's from there, it's in his Euro seat and UKIP is strong there. North Thanet looks good on paper but if the current incumbent is standing again Farage will look left-wing in comparison...
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,266
    Plato said:

    I suppose he could be a serial killer in waiting - but this seems rather OTT

    "A MAN has been charged by police for staring at Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon in her office. Dogan Arslan, 47, is accused of staring at the SNP politician and her constituency office in Glasgow’s Pollokshaws Road from a parked car outside.

    Arslan, from the city’s Battlefield, is alleged to have carried out the offence between last October and December. He is due to appear at the city’s sheriff court this week where he’s accused of causing “fear and alarm” to people including Sturgeon. Court papers say he “repeatedly loitered” within a car and stared at the office and Sturgeon. http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/man-appears-court-accused-staring-2343855

    Maybe the fact that he did it continuously from October to December , would suggest it is just a bit more serious than a stare at someone. Typical Scottish Media and particularly the Daily Ranger bias towards the SNP.
    Making light of a serious topic to have a dig at the SNP.
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    SMukeshSMukesh Posts: 1,650

    Another day, another seat:

    "Nigel Farage considering standing as MP in Folkestone
    Ukip leader says he will stand for parliament in 2015 and has been thinking about targeting the Folkestone and Hythe seat"

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/oct/06/nigel-farage-ukip

    What were the other ones on the other days? A Kent seat seems like the obvious move as he's from there, it's in his Euro seat and UKIP is strong there. North Thanet looks good on paper but if the current incumbent is standing again Farage will look left-wing in comparison...
    North Thanet is a no-goer.

    It is economically such a backward area that one wonders why it isn`t Labour,but for some reason it is rock solid Tory.

    I doubt Farage is going to choose Folkestone.There must be huge swathes of voters there loyal to Michael Howard and who vote Tory by habit.
  • Options

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    The public may abhor Ed Miliband, but he is politically quite clever and guileful. The trouble is the public still abhor him.

    "Abhor" is putting it a too strongly, they just think he's a bit rubbish.
    I know what you mean, I hesitated to use that word - and words are my tools (imagine this line spoken in a pretentious Will Selfian voice). Maybe 'abhor' is too strong.

    However the reaction I get from people when I ask them about Ed is surprisingly vehement - and hostile. I've had two centrist, clever, fairly apolitical women independently tell me they 'hate' him. Their word.

    It's a bizarre reaction. I fiercely reject Ed's policies and revile his party but I don't positively hate the man himself.

    So the public feeling about Ed is more averse than 'just thinking he's a bit rubbish'. He seems to irritate them on some deeper level. Almost subconscious. They actively don't like him. Maybe others can explain why. I can't.
    Do you find this reaction specifically among women ?

    They could be reacting to some personal experience (whether fair, real, subconscious or not) of nerdy, ineffectual men who have power because of their privileged backgrounds.

    Or it could be some more general sort of alpha female resentment towards beta males.
    Perhaps Ed has a women problem. Tim might enlighten us on that one.
  • Options

    Plato said:

    Just should warn @andyburnhammp if in desperation to hold on to his job he threatens to sue us. We have the receipts for the champagne...

    This Bolinger Burnham stuff could prove lethal. Miliband and Labour's approach until now is to play the victim card - presenting Burnham as a hapless target of some imagined Tory hate campaign. All nonsense, of course, put plays well with the Left's oppression fantasies. However, when people start flaunting the trappings of opulence in full view of the public - as we saw with Prescott - the comrades can turn, especially if the person in question has nothing else to offer. I suspect Burnham is not long for this earth.
    Burnham or his staff ordered 3 cases of Lafitte champagne ( paid for by the taxpayer , naturally ) , a Lafitte Leftist rather than Bollinger Bolshevik.

    Are there any PB wine experts who can comment on the choice ?

  • Options
    I cannot believe stjohn did not butter his toast.
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    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    edited October 2013
    SMukesh said:

    Another day, another seat:

    "Nigel Farage considering standing as MP in Folkestone
    Ukip leader says he will stand for parliament in 2015 and has been thinking about targeting the Folkestone and Hythe seat"

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/oct/06/nigel-farage-ukip

    What were the other ones on the other days? A Kent seat seems like the obvious move as he's from there, it's in his Euro seat and UKIP is strong there. North Thanet looks good on paper but if the current incumbent is standing again Farage will look left-wing in comparison...
    North Thanet is a no-goer.

    It is economically such a backward area that one wonders why it isn`t Labour,but for some reason it is rock solid Tory.

    I doubt Farage is going to choose Folkestone.There must be huge swathes of voters there loyal to Michael Howard and who vote Tory by habit.
    Thanet North was one of the seats UKIP 'won' in the May 2013 elections.

    http://survation.com/2013/05/ukip-won-in-8-westminster-constituencies-last-thursday/
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,161
    SMukesh said:

    Another day, another seat:

    "Nigel Farage considering standing as MP in Folkestone
    Ukip leader says he will stand for parliament in 2015 and has been thinking about targeting the Folkestone and Hythe seat"

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/oct/06/nigel-farage-ukip

    What were the other ones on the other days? A Kent seat seems like the obvious move as he's from there, it's in his Euro seat and UKIP is strong there. North Thanet looks good on paper but if the current incumbent is standing again Farage will look left-wing in comparison...
    North Thanet is a no-goer.

    It is economically such a backward area that one wonders why it isn`t Labour,but for some reason it is rock solid Tory.

    I doubt Farage is going to choose Folkestone.There must be huge swathes of voters there loyal to Michael Howard and who vote Tory by habit.
    If he's trying to resist a two-party squeeze there's something to be said for somewhere with a lowish Labour vote like that - as opposed to South Thanet for example - because people UKIP-curious ex-Cons shouldn't feel the need to vote Con to keep Labour out.
  • Options
    SMukeshSMukesh Posts: 1,650

    SMukesh said:

    Another day, another seat:

    "Nigel Farage considering standing as MP in Folkestone
    Ukip leader says he will stand for parliament in 2015 and has been thinking about targeting the Folkestone and Hythe seat"

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/oct/06/nigel-farage-ukip

    What were the other ones on the other days? A Kent seat seems like the obvious move as he's from there, it's in his Euro seat and UKIP is strong there. North Thanet looks good on paper but if the current incumbent is standing again Farage will look left-wing in comparison...
    North Thanet is a no-goer.

    It is economically such a backward area that one wonders why it isn`t Labour,but for some reason it is rock solid Tory.

    I doubt Farage is going to choose Folkestone.There must be huge swathes of voters there loyal to Michael Howard and who vote Tory by habit.
    Thanet North was one of the seats UKIP 'won' in the May 2013 elections.

    http://survation.com/2013/05/ukip-won-in-8-westminster-constituencies-last-thursday/
    They may have done so in local elections but Sir Roger Gale is unbeatable in North Thanet in my view.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,916

    Another day, another seat:

    "Nigel Farage considering standing as MP in Folkestone
    Ukip leader says he will stand for parliament in 2015 and has been thinking about targeting the Folkestone and Hythe seat"

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/oct/06/nigel-farage-ukip

    What were the other ones on the other days? A Kent seat seems like the obvious move as he's from there, it's in his Euro seat and UKIP is strong there. North Thanet looks good on paper but if the current incumbent is standing again Farage will look left-wing in comparison...
    From the article:

    "There was speculation over the weekend that he would fight in Thanet South, the seat of Tory MP Laura Sandys, which he failed to win in 2010."
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,346
    Farage is standing in South Thanet because the MP, Laura Sandys, is a pro-European unlike Gale
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,916
    Tom Watson is having fun on the back benches:

    "Afriyie was evasive to say the least when grilled by Andrew Neil about how many MPs he has supporting this amendment. But Watson’s intervention is significant because he is a far more powerful figure in his party than Afriyie is in his. It is also direct challenge to Ed Miliband, who decided to duck the issue of a referendum at his party conference."

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2013/10/tom-watson-backs-afriyie-amendment/
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,161
    SMukesh said:

    SMukesh said:

    Another day, another seat:

    "Nigel Farage considering standing as MP in Folkestone
    Ukip leader says he will stand for parliament in 2015 and has been thinking about targeting the Folkestone and Hythe seat"

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/oct/06/nigel-farage-ukip

    What were the other ones on the other days? A Kent seat seems like the obvious move as he's from there, it's in his Euro seat and UKIP is strong there. North Thanet looks good on paper but if the current incumbent is standing again Farage will look left-wing in comparison...
    North Thanet is a no-goer.

    It is economically such a backward area that one wonders why it isn`t Labour,but for some reason it is rock solid Tory.

    I doubt Farage is going to choose Folkestone.There must be huge swathes of voters there loyal to Michael Howard and who vote Tory by habit.
    Thanet North was one of the seats UKIP 'won' in the May 2013 elections.

    http://survation.com/2013/05/ukip-won-in-8-westminster-constituencies-last-thursday/
    They may have done so in local elections but Sir Roger Gale is unbeatable in North Thanet in my view.
    He'll be 72 in 2015. Are we sure he'll run again?
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Health ministers wishing to economise on their Champagne purchases may wish to consider Waitroses "blanc de noir" which is quite palatable when seeking refreshment at the end of a busy day of meetings.

    Clearly Methode Champenois or non-French sparkling wine would be an unnacceptable economy!

    Plato said:

    Just should warn @andyburnhammp if in desperation to hold on to his job he threatens to sue us. We have the receipts for the champagne...

    This Bolinger Burnham stuff could prove lethal. Miliband and Labour's approach until now is to play the victim card - presenting Burnham as a hapless target of some imagined Tory hate campaign. All nonsense, of course, put plays well with the Left's oppression fantasies. However, when people start flaunting the trappings of opulence in full view of the public - as we saw with Prescott - the comrades can turn, especially if the person in question has nothing else to offer. I suspect Burnham is not long for this earth.
    Burnham or his staff ordered 3 cases of Lafitte champagne ( paid for by the taxpayer , naturally ) , a Lafitte Leftist rather than Bollinger Bolshevik.

    Are there any PB wine experts who can comment on the choice ?

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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,916
    HYUFD said:

    Farage is standing in South Thanet because the MP, Laura Sandys, is a pro-European unlike Gale

    "Mr Farage downplayed rumours he was going to stand for South Thanet in 2015 and said he was thinking about standing for Folkestone instead."

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/oct/06/nigel-farage-ukip
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,161

    SMukesh said:

    SMukesh said:

    Another day, another seat:

    "Nigel Farage considering standing as MP in Folkestone
    Ukip leader says he will stand for parliament in 2015 and has been thinking about targeting the Folkestone and Hythe seat"

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/oct/06/nigel-farage-ukip

    What were the other ones on the other days? A Kent seat seems like the obvious move as he's from there, it's in his Euro seat and UKIP is strong there. North Thanet looks good on paper but if the current incumbent is standing again Farage will look left-wing in comparison...
    North Thanet is a no-goer.

    It is economically such a backward area that one wonders why it isn`t Labour,but for some reason it is rock solid Tory.

    I doubt Farage is going to choose Folkestone.There must be huge swathes of voters there loyal to Michael Howard and who vote Tory by habit.
    Thanet North was one of the seats UKIP 'won' in the May 2013 elections.

    http://survation.com/2013/05/ukip-won-in-8-westminster-constituencies-last-thursday/
    They may have done so in local elections but Sir Roger Gale is unbeatable in North Thanet in my view.
    He'll be 72 in 2015. Are we sure he'll run again?
    Replying to my own question, apparently he's already been reselected:
    http://www.rogergale.com/content_manager/page.php?ID=104005&dbc=c119c97a57ac76bf924b729a4470d525

    ..., although Farage may have been checking his actuarial tables when deciding to keep his options open.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    It may be that 20% are aspiring to buy. Aspirants rather than those who have definite plans are the target of HTB. Owning ones own place is a middle class value that solidifies the right wing trend that goes with age.

    Indeed by encouraging people to aspire, but not actually complete, most of the political benefit can be had, but at little cost. It is about setting the mood that the country is recovering, and that this will trickle down. Often mood matters more than reality.
    tim said:

    @SeanT

    Of course housing is a massive issue, but believing a survey that says 20% of Londoners are going to buy a new property this year is laughable

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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,266

    From earlier this week:

    "The abolition of tuition fees has not encouraged more Scottish children from poor families to go to university, according to an expert report that raised major doubts whether the flagship SNP policy is good value for taxpayers."

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10354393/Free-fees-does-not-help-poor-attend-Scottish-universities.html

    Yes they would be far better off paying £9K a year rather than getting free education , only dumb unionists could try and support that bollocks notion , bit like the bedroom tax helping the poor and disabled.
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    As a tory member of some weeks now, may I say this Adam a bloke is a bell-end. Thank you
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,346
    Carlotta - As Damian Collins is more Eurosceptic than Sandys, Farage would defy logic to stand in Folkestone
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    malcolmg said:

    From earlier this week:

    "The abolition of tuition fees has not encouraged more Scottish children from poor families to go to university, according to an expert report that raised major doubts whether the flagship SNP policy is good value for taxpayers."

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10354393/Free-fees-does-not-help-poor-attend-Scottish-universities.html

    Yes they would be far better off paying £9K a year rather than getting free education , only dumb unionists could try and support that bollocks notion , bit like the bedroom tax helping the poor and disabled.
    It isn't a free education. Joe Public foots the bill for the student wasters.

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    MillsyMillsy Posts: 900
    Charles said:

    Millsy said:

    In summary: Miliband doing well to get lefties on his side (again). After all, disheartened party supporters won't pound the streets for you.

    From the ST YouGov polling it appears Miliband is the only winner from the conference season, increasing his support (from a very low base) among lefties.

    Miliband with voting groups:
    Lab +55
    L10 +32
    LD10 +26

    How does this work?

    I assumed that L10 and LD10 are the biggest components of Lnow. If they are both in the 25-35 range, how come the overall Lnow rating is at +55? What am I missing?
    Sorry - they are the changes over the 3 week conference period
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,291

    As a tory member of some weeks now, may I say this Adam a bloke is a bell-end. Thank you

    He forgot to study Napoleon. "Never interrupt your enemy whilst he is making a mistake."
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,161
    HYUFD said:

    Carlotta - As Damian Collins is more Eurosceptic than Sandys, Farage would defy logic to stand in Folkestone

    Your logic is backwards. Where you stand depends on where you sit, so a Eurosceptic MP is a sign of fertile ground for UKIP.
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    FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    edited October 2013
    Let's consider a possible scenario in early February 2015. It is a fiercely cold winter and the Met Office see no end in sight. Central heating is running full bore and the UK's gas supplies are running at minimum due to the already-known poor stocking capability.

    Putin throws a wobbly and reduces gas flow to Europe and at the same time ups the price by 25%. Japan has signed a new agreement with Qatar and supplies of LNG from there are limited. Gas from fracking has still not been exploited. So energy providers raise gas prices to compensate for the increased market price.

    How would EdM respond then? Ask HMG to cover the increased price indefinitely? Support urgent fracking - doubt it? Encourage re-opening of coal powered stations (if they had not been demolished).?

    That is why EdM is weak because his words and policies are false and cannot be trusted.
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    MillsyMillsy Posts: 900
    Apart from the lack of change from conferences in the YouGov polls the interesting snippet today is the question on "best policies to help ordinary hard-working people".

    The Tories are poor on that question across the board (compared with questions on the economy) but Ukip voters generally side with the Tories on forced choices and they favour Labour here. The party's problem in a nutshell I guess.

    http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/r4r40d1fp0/YG-Archive-Pol-Sunday-Times-results-041013.pdf
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,291
    E J Thirb style Tweet.

    CWUMSWL ‏@cwumswl 6m
    @andyburnhammp
    You have our support
    And our respect
    Two Words,
    the Tories and the mail,
    would need to look up in a dictionary.
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,125
    edited October 2013
    malcolmg said:

    From earlier this week:

    "The abolition of tuition fees has not encouraged more Scottish children from poor families to go to university, according to an expert report that raised major doubts whether the flagship SNP policy is good value for taxpayers."

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10354393/Free-fees-does-not-help-poor-attend-Scottish-universities.html

    Yes they would be far better off paying £9K a year rather than getting free education , only dumb unionists could try and support that bollocks notion , bit like the bedroom tax helping the poor and disabled.

    Classic 'dumb' misunderstanding of the term 'free' education and really quite rude about the Edinburgh University research team who produced the report.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,346
    EinTokyo - No, Collins just in tune with the Tory mainstream, Sandys more pro-European than her party. In any case, UKIP got 4.6% in Folkestone in 2010, 5.5% in Thanet South, so Thanet South is the better prospect anyway (and UKIP got almost double the 3.1% it won nationally in the seat at the last general election)
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    notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    tim said:

    Financier said:

    Let's consider a possible scenario in early February 2015. It is a fiercely cold winter and the Met Office see no end in sight. Central heating is running full bore and the UK's gas supplies are running at minimum due to the already-known poor stocking capability.

    Putin throws a wobbly and reduces gas flow to Europe and at the same time ups the price by 25%. Japan has signed a new agreement with Qatar and supplies of LNG from there are limited. Gas from fracking has still not been exploited. So energy providers raise gas prices to compensate for the increased market price.

    How would EdM respond then? Ask HMG to cover the increased price indefinitely? Support urgent fracking - doubt it? Encourage re-opening of coal powered stations (if they had not been demolished).?

    That is why EdM is weak because his words and policies are false and cannot be trusted.

    A winter that cold and A&E departments go into meltdown on the Tories watch.
    A few PB Tories would be posting about Ed Miliband in 2009 but in the real world Cameron is screwed
    I see this is Tim's new thing. All Health Secretaries dont look forward to a bad winter. Bad weather has a way of pushing people already not in the best of health over the edge. Of course under the Glorious Leader, bad weather had been abolished.
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,161
    Financier said:

    Let's consider a possible scenario in early February 2015. It is a fiercely cold winter and the Met Office see no end in sight. Central heating is running full bore and the UK's gas supplies are running at minimum due to the already-known poor stocking capability.

    Putin throws a wobbly and reduces gas flow to Europe and at the same time ups the price by 25%. Japan has signed a new agreement with Qatar and supplies of LNG from there are limited. Gas from fracking has still not been exploited. So energy providers raise gas prices to compensate for the increased market price.

    How would EdM respond then? Ask HMG to cover the increased price indefinitely? Support urgent fracking - doubt it? Encourage re-opening of coal powered stations (if they had not been demolished).?

    That is why EdM is weak because his words and policies are false and cannot be trusted.

    The government controls a lot of levers that affect energy price profitability, so the obvious thing would be to bribe the energy companies to cover the short-term price with some kind of wonkish medium-term incentive to make it up for them. But if it's really extreme geopolitical stuff involving Putin maybe he'd just reverse the policy.

    The price fixing is bad policy but I don't think it makes sense to criticize opposition policies for not standing up to extreme geopolitical changes.

    PS "Urgent fracking" is not a thing.
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,161
    OT PPP marginal House district polls which I assume are Republican-held:
    17 Dem lead
    2 tied
    5 Rep lead
    http://front.moveon.org/24-moveon-polls-show-gop-could-lose-house-in-wake-of-shutdown/#.UlFJwX9AWSo

    A little bit of a caveat emptor needed here as it's a Dem pollster polling for a Dem group, and there's obviously an incentive to scare Republicans into compromising on the shutdown. Hopefully other people will do some polls of some of the same districts that we can compare.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    As a tory member of some weeks now, may I say this Adam a bloke is a bell-end. Thank you

    Ditto - he's a numpty of the first water.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,346
    EdinTokyo True, but PPP was one of the most accurate pollsters in 2012, the House could well see big Dem gains next year, even if the GOP narrowly win back the Senate
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    HYUFD said:

    Carlotta - As Damian Collins is more Eurosceptic than Sandys, Farage would defy logic to stand in Folkestone

    Your logic is backwards. Where you stand depends on where you sit, so a Eurosceptic MP is a sign of fertile ground for UKIP.
    No Edmund I would suggest exactly the opposite. The electorate don't generally choose who the Tory party candidate is. As such they would have very little say in whether that candidate was pro or anti EU. If the electorate is generally anti-EU in an area then they would be more likely to stick with their existing MP and ignore the UKIP candidate if that MP were anti-EU. On the other hand the electorate might well be tempted away if the MP were clearly Pro EU and they were given the choice of a high profile UKIP candidate who they think might have a chance of winning.

    In addition there would be a valid argument to be made by a genuinely anti-EU Tory that the UKIP candidate was more concerned about power than returning Eurosceptics to parliament. As such Farage is much better off choosing a constituency where the sitting Tory is clearly pro-EU.
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    FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916

    Financier said:

    Let's consider a possible scenario in early February 2015. It is a fiercely cold winter and the Met Office see no end in sight. Central heating is running full bore and the UK's gas supplies are running at minimum due to the already-known poor stocking capability.

    Putin throws a wobbly and reduces gas flow to Europe and at the same time ups the price by 25%. Japan has signed a new agreement with Qatar and supplies of LNG from there are limited. Gas from fracking has still not been exploited. So energy providers raise gas prices to compensate for the increased market price.

    How would EdM respond then? Ask HMG to cover the increased price indefinitely? Support urgent fracking - doubt it? Encourage re-opening of coal powered stations (if they had not been demolished).?

    That is why EdM is weak because his words and policies are false and cannot be trusted.

    The government controls a lot of levers that affect energy price profitability, so the obvious thing would be to bribe the energy companies to cover the short-term price with some kind of wonkish medium-term incentive to make it up for them. But if it's really extreme geopolitical stuff involving Putin maybe he'd just reverse the policy.

    The price fixing is bad policy but I don't think it makes sense to criticize opposition policies for not standing up to extreme geopolitical changes.

    PS "Urgent fracking" is not a thing.
    But major energy price hikes by key producers are not unknown as history shows. Also these have not been short-term in the past. The mindset of an ex-KGB Putin does not allow for either persuasion or reasonableness.
This discussion has been closed.