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I wouldn't go that far. I think he is sincere and hard-working, if blinkered by wishful thinking. A sort of George W Bush - except I don't GW worked very hard.TheScreamingEagles said:
David Davis is turning out to be an impressive Minister.TOPPING said:This discussion about the nuances of the type of customs union is PB Leaving at its finest. Similar to everyone agreeing pre-vote that an EFTA/EEA solution was the right thing and, moreover, was nailed on.
As @Luckyguy1983 says, it's all poncing around on the head of a pin by the intelligentsia. Joe Leaver will have nothing to do with a or the Customs Union. To him, that's not leaving. He wants out and quick.
I am even beginning to have some sympathy for Davis, which is a sentence I never thought I'd write.0 -
He's always been impressive, if brainwashed Cameron supporters can now see that then he must be doing alright!TheScreamingEagles said:
David Davis is turning out to be an impressive Minister.TOPPING said:This discussion about the nuances of the type of customs union is PB Leaving at its finest. Similar to everyone agreeing pre-vote that an EFTA/EEA solution was the right thing and, moreover, was nailed on.
As @Luckyguy1983 says, it's all poncing around on the head of a pin by the intelligentsia. Joe Leaver will have nothing to do with a or the Customs Union. To him, that's not leaving. He wants out and quick.
I am even beginning to have some sympathy for Davis, which is a sentence I never thought I'd write.0 -
No it really isn't.FF43 said:
That's why Turkey has a car industry and Norway doesn't.Richard_Tyndall said:
That is the difference between 'a' customs union and 'the' customs union. As I said the EFTA countries chose to stay outside of the EU customs union.rcs1000 said:
Turkey is in a customs union with the EU, but is not in the EU customs union. This means that it keeps its tariffs synchronised with the EU, but is free to enter into FTAs with other countries. So, for example, Turkey has an FTA with Israel, which the EU does not.Richard_Tyndall said:
My understanding is that you are wrong about being able to make your own trade deals if you are inside the customs union. This is why Norway and the other EFTA countries stayed outside the customs union even though they joined the EEA.rcs1000 said:As it's Brexit day, I'd like to remind everyone that there is a difference between:
(a) being in a customs union with the EU, and having our own relationships with other countries, which is what Turkey has
and
(b) being in the EU customs unions, and therefore being a party to all the trade deals signed by the EU
I would also like to point out that we should dis-aggregate the various EU payments. Norway's annual payments to the EU are about EUR850m. Of this, the biggest component (EUR447m) is for membership of various bodies administered by the EU, but run separately: i.e., Erasmus, the European Space Agency, CERN, Gallileo, Horizon, Copernicus, and a bunch of others. We would be able to cherry pick which ones we wished to be members of post Brexit, but I very much doubt we'd like to walk away from Erasmus, for example, just because we'd left the EU.
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I have always believed the EFTA/EEA solution was the best way to go for the UK and still have that £100 bet with Richard N about it being the eventual outcome. Of course it upsets those for whom immigration is the be all and end all but they are never going to be happy anyway.TOPPING said:This discussion about the nuances of the type of customs union is PB Leaving at its finest. Similar to everyone agreeing pre-vote that an EFTA/EEA solution was the right thing and, moreover, was nailed on.
As @Luckyguy1983 says, it's all poncing around on the head of a pin by the intelligentsia. Joe Leaver will have nothing to do with a or the Customs Union. To him, that's not leaving. He wants out and quick.
I am even beginning to have some sympathy for Davis, which is a sentence I never thought I'd write.0 -
Indeed.Richard_Tyndall said:
No it really isn't.FF43 said:
That's why Turkey has a car industry and Norway doesn't.Richard_Tyndall said:
That is the difference between 'a' customs union and 'the' customs union. As I said the EFTA countries chose to stay outside of the EU customs union.rcs1000 said:
Turkey is in a customs union with the EU, but is not in the EU customs union. This means that it keeps its tariffs synchronised with the EU, but is free to enter into FTAs with other countries. So, for example, Turkey has an FTA with Israel, which the EU does not.Richard_Tyndall said:
My understanding is that you are wrong about being able to make your own trade deals if you are inside the customs union. This is why Norway and the other EFTA countries stayed outside the customs union even though they joined the EEA.rcs1000 said:As it's Brexit day, I'd like to remind everyone that there is a difference between:
(a) being in a customs union with the EU, and having our own relationships with other countries, which is what Turkey has
and
(b) being in the EU customs unions, and therefore being a party to all the trade deals signed by the EU
I would also like to point out that we should dis-aggregate the various EU payments. Norway's annual payments to the EU are about EUR850m. Of this, the biggest component (EUR447m) is for membership of various bodies administered by the EU, but run separately: i.e., Erasmus, the European Space Agency, CERN, Gallileo, Horizon, Copernicus, and a bunch of others. We would be able to cherry pick which ones we wished to be members of post Brexit, but I very much doubt we'd like to walk away from Erasmus, for example, just because we'd left the EU.0 -
Great stuff on Lady Nugee
"Lady Nugee knows she effortlessly radiates sneering contempt for the lower orders and thus does her damned best to hide it."
“Dear, oh dear,” she sighed self-importantly, leaning forward onto the despatch box with her mitts gleefully clasped together, “we’re not asking for details. We’re asking about a central plank of the negotiations”. Not to be confused with Guy Verhofstadt, who is the central plank in the negotiations."
http://order-order.com/2016/12/07/thornberry-named-times-worst-person-year/#more-2512420 -
I think this is the last coupe they built:Sunil_Prasannan said:
When was the last time Norway had a coup?FF43 said:
That's why Turkey has a car industry and Norway doesn't.Richard_Tyndall said:
That is the difference between 'a' customs union and 'the' customs union. As I said the EFTA countries chose to stay outside of the EU customs union.rcs1000 said:
Turkey is in a customs union with the EU, but is not in the EU customs union. This means that it keeps its tariffs synchronised with the EU, but is free to enter into FTAs with other countries. So, for example, Turkey has an FTA with Israel, which the EU does not.Richard_Tyndall said:
My understanding is that you are wrong about being able to make your own trade deals if you are inside the customs union. This is why Norway and the other EFTA countries stayed outside the customs union even though they joined the EEA.rcs1000 said:As it's Brexit day, I'd like to remind everyone that there is a difference between:
(a) being in a customs union with the EU, and having our own relationships with other countries, which is what Turkey has
and
(b) being in the EU customs unions, and therefore being a party to all the trade deals signed by the EU
I would also like to point out that we should dis-aggregate the various EU payments. Norway's annual payments to the EU are about EUR850m. Of this, the biggest component (EUR447m) is for membership of various bodies administered by the EU, but run separately: i.e., Erasmus, the European Space Agency, CERN, Gallileo, Horizon, Copernicus, and a bunch of others. We would be able to cherry pick which ones we wished to be members of post Brexit, but I very much doubt we'd like to walk away from Erasmus, for example, just because we'd left the EU.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(automobile)#/media/File:Troll_1956.JPG0 -
Agree 100%Brom said:
He's always been impressive, if brainwashed Cameron supporters can now see that then he must be doing alright!TheScreamingEagles said:
David Davis is turning out to be an impressive Minister.TOPPING said:This discussion about the nuances of the type of customs union is PB Leaving at its finest. Similar to everyone agreeing pre-vote that an EFTA/EEA solution was the right thing and, moreover, was nailed on.
As @Luckyguy1983 says, it's all poncing around on the head of a pin by the intelligentsia. Joe Leaver will have nothing to do with a or the Customs Union. To him, that's not leaving. He wants out and quick.
I am even beginning to have some sympathy for Davis, which is a sentence I never thought I'd write.0 -
Oh behave.Brom said:
He's always been impressive, if brainwashed Cameron supporters can now see that then he must be doing alright!TheScreamingEagles said:
David Davis is turning out to be an impressive Minister.TOPPING said:This discussion about the nuances of the type of customs union is PB Leaving at its finest. Similar to everyone agreeing pre-vote that an EFTA/EEA solution was the right thing and, moreover, was nailed on.
As @Luckyguy1983 says, it's all poncing around on the head of a pin by the intelligentsia. Joe Leaver will have nothing to do with a or the Customs Union. To him, that's not leaving. He wants out and quick.
I am even beginning to have some sympathy for Davis, which is a sentence I never thought I'd write.
There's been one unifying view across all wings of the Tory party for the last 15 years or so David Davis and Liam Fox are vainglorious peacocks who aren't as talented as they think they are.0 -
I speak as a member of the non Tory voting public rather than a signed up member of the Conservative fan club. If Nicky Morgan, Nicholas Soames, Anna Soubry or George Osborne had a low opinion of DD then even betterTheScreamingEagles said:
Oh behave.Brom said:
He's always been impressive, if brainwashed Cameron supporters can now see that then he must be doing alright!TheScreamingEagles said:
David Davis is turning out to be an impressive Minister.TOPPING said:This discussion about the nuances of the type of customs union is PB Leaving at its finest. Similar to everyone agreeing pre-vote that an EFTA/EEA solution was the right thing and, moreover, was nailed on.
As @Luckyguy1983 says, it's all poncing around on the head of a pin by the intelligentsia. Joe Leaver will have nothing to do with a or the Customs Union. To him, that's not leaving. He wants out and quick.
I am even beginning to have some sympathy for Davis, which is a sentence I never thought I'd write.
There's been one unifying view across all wings of the Tory party for the last 15 years or so David Davis and Liam Fox and vainglorious peacocks who aren't as talented as they think they are.
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Yes, prior to the vote we were assured that 'Hard Brexit' was a fringe, crank idea and the wisdom of the self-styled Leave intellectuals would prevail. Since then Farage has gone from strength to strength, with the media whipping up mob rule whenever the government is thought to be straying from Farage's diktats. We will have the hardest of Brexits, if only because the Tory party will explode into civil war when the government tries to do otherwise, and the Corbyn/UKIP consensus that will rise from the political ashes will impose it.TOPPING said:This discussion about the nuances of the type of customs union is PB Leaving at its finest. Similar to everyone agreeing pre-vote that an EFTA/EEA solution was the right thing and, moreover, was nailed on.
As @Luckyguy1983 says, it's all poncing around on the head of a pin by the intelligentsia. Joe Leaver will have nothing to do with a or the Customs Union. To him, that's not leaving. He wants out and quick.
I am even beginning to have some sympathy for Davis, which is a sentence I never thought I'd write.0 -
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Immigration isn't the be all and the end all for me. Economic survival is.Richard_Tyndall said:
I have always believed the EFTA/EEA solution was the best way to go for the UK and still have that £100 bet with Richard N about it being the eventual outcome. Of course it upsets those for whom immigration is the be all and end all but they are never going to be happy anyway.TOPPING said:This discussion about the nuances of the type of customs union is PB Leaving at its finest. Similar to everyone agreeing pre-vote that an EFTA/EEA solution was the right thing and, moreover, was nailed on.
As @Luckyguy1983 says, it's all poncing around on the head of a pin by the intelligentsia. Joe Leaver will have nothing to do with a or the Customs Union. To him, that's not leaving. He wants out and quick.
I am even beginning to have some sympathy for Davis, which is a sentence I never thought I'd write.0 -
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If Joe Leaver didn't want to involve himself in the complex nuances of customs unions, he didn't have to vote at all in the referendum. But as enough Joes did, there's no getting away from it, and the UKIP position that we should just walk out without any deal or even triggering Article 50 just shows this. We want our soundbite, to feel we've stuck it to the man, and the immense complexity of what 'Leave' might mean isn't for us. Good luck with that line.TOPPING said:This discussion about the nuances of the type of customs union is PB Leaving at its finest. Similar to everyone agreeing pre-vote that an EFTA/EEA solution was the right thing and, moreover, was nailed on.
As @Luckyguy1983 says, it's all poncing around on the head of a pin by the intelligentsia. Joe Leaver will have nothing to do with a or the Customs Union. To him, that's not leaving. He wants out and quick.
I am even beginning to have some sympathy for Davis, which is a sentence I never thought I'd write.0 -
Is there a form of Brexit that won't lead to the Tory party exploding in civil war?Stark_Dawning said:We will have the hardest of Brexits, if only because the Tory party will explode into civil war when the government tries to do otherwise
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In Abu Dhabi airport waiting for my connecting flight to Karachi. Glad it is Etihad not PIA ...0
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Fox I would agree with. Davis is far brighter than any of the Tories you have championed for the last 15 years. He is certainly streets head of Cameron or Osborne and would have been a far better leader. Not least because he would have killed the posh boy meme stone dead.TheScreamingEagles said:
Oh behave.Brom said:
He's always been impressive, if brainwashed Cameron supporters can now see that then he must be doing alright!TheScreamingEagles said:
David Davis is turning out to be an impressive Minister.TOPPING said:This discussion about the nuances of the type of customs union is PB Leaving at its finest. Similar to everyone agreeing pre-vote that an EFTA/EEA solution was the right thing and, moreover, was nailed on.
As @Luckyguy1983 says, it's all poncing around on the head of a pin by the intelligentsia. Joe Leaver will have nothing to do with a or the Customs Union. To him, that's not leaving. He wants out and quick.
I am even beginning to have some sympathy for Davis, which is a sentence I never thought I'd write.
There's been one unifying view across all wings of the Tory party for the last 15 years or so David Davis and Liam Fox are vainglorious peacocks who aren't as talented as they think they are.0 -
Which is why the EFTA/EEA option is far and away the best.Luckyguy1983 said:
Immigration isn't the be all and the end all for me. Economic survival is.Richard_Tyndall said:
I have always believed the EFTA/EEA solution was the best way to go for the UK and still have that £100 bet with Richard N about it being the eventual outcome. Of course it upsets those for whom immigration is the be all and end all but they are never going to be happy anyway.TOPPING said:This discussion about the nuances of the type of customs union is PB Leaving at its finest. Similar to everyone agreeing pre-vote that an EFTA/EEA solution was the right thing and, moreover, was nailed on.
As @Luckyguy1983 says, it's all poncing around on the head of a pin by the intelligentsia. Joe Leaver will have nothing to do with a or the Customs Union. To him, that's not leaving. He wants out and quick.
I am even beginning to have some sympathy for Davis, which is a sentence I never thought I'd write.0 -
Last chance saloon...williamglenn said:
Is that a failed coupé?Sunil_Prasannan said:
When was the last time Norway had a coup?FF43 said:
That's why Turkey has a car industry and Norway doesn't.Richard_Tyndall said:
That is the difference between 'a' customs union and 'the' customs union. As I said the EFTA countries chose to stay outside of the EU customs union.rcs1000 said:
Turkey is in a customs union with the EU, but is not in the EU customs union. This means that it keeps its tariffs synchronised with the EU, but is free to enter into FTAs with other countries. So, for example, Turkey has an FTA with Israel, which the EU does not.Richard_Tyndall said:
My understanding is that you are wrong about being able to make your own trade deals if you are inside the customs union. This is why Norway and the other EFTA countries stayed outside the customs union even though they joined the EEA.rcs1000 said:As it's Brexit day, I'd like to remind everyone that there is a difference between:
(a) being in a customs union with the EU, and having our own relationships with other countries, which is what Turkey has
and
(b) being in the EU customs unions, and therefore being a party to all the trade deals signed by the EU
I would also like to point out that we should dis-aggregate the various EU payments. Norway's annual payments to the EU are about EUR850m. Of this, the biggest component (EUR447m) is for membership of various bodies administered by the EU, but run separately: i.e., Erasmus, the European Space Agency, CERN, Gallileo, Horizon, Copernicus, and a bunch of others. We would be able to cherry pick which ones we wished to be members of post Brexit, but I very much doubt we'd like to walk away from Erasmus, for example, just because we'd left the EU.0 -
Guido really doesn't do satire very well. He should take his staff to Private Eye's offices for a few weeks. He just doesn't have the subtlety to be wittyTCPoliticalBetting said:Great stuff on Lady Nugee
"Lady Nugee knows she effortlessly radiates sneering contempt for the lower orders and thus does her damned best to hide it."
“Dear, oh dear,” she sighed self-importantly, leaning forward onto the despatch box with her mitts gleefully clasped together, “we’re not asking for details. We’re asking about a central plank of the negotiations”. Not to be confused with Guy Verhofstadt, who is the central plank in the negotiations."
http://order-order.com/2016/12/07/thornberry-named-times-worst-person-year/#more-2512420 -
Posh boy meme?Richard_Tyndall said:
Fox I would agree with. Davis is far brighter than any of the Tories you have championed for the last 15 years. He is certainly streets head of Cameron or Osborne and would have been a far better leader. Not least because he would have killed the posh boy meme stone dead.TheScreamingEagles said:
Oh behave.Brom said:
He's always been impressive, if brainwashed Cameron supporters can now see that then he must be doing alright!TheScreamingEagles said:
David Davis is turning out to be an impressive Minister.TOPPING said:This discussion about the nuances of the type of customs union is PB Leaving at its finest. Similar to everyone agreeing pre-vote that an EFTA/EEA solution was the right thing and, moreover, was nailed on.
As @Luckyguy1983 says, it's all poncing around on the head of a pin by the intelligentsia. Joe Leaver will have nothing to do with a or the Customs Union. To him, that's not leaving. He wants out and quick.
I am even beginning to have some sympathy for Davis, which is a sentence I never thought I'd write.
There's been one unifying view across all wings of the Tory party for the last 15 years or so David Davis and Liam Fox are vainglorious peacocks who aren't as talented as they think they are.
Oh you mean the posh boy who is the only Tory to have won general elections in the last 20 years.
If Davis had been leader, Brown would have called an early election in 2007 and won.0 -
That's supposition. If Davis had been leader, Shami Chakrabarti might be a Tory peer.TheScreamingEagles said:
Posh boy meme?Richard_Tyndall said:
Fox I would agree with. Davis is far brighter than any of the Tories you have championed for the last 15 years. He is certainly streets head of Cameron or Osborne and would have been a far better leader. Not least because he would have killed the posh boy meme stone dead.TheScreamingEagles said:
Oh behave.Brom said:
He's always been impressive, if brainwashed Cameron supporters can now see that then he must be doing alright!TheScreamingEagles said:
David Davis is turning out to be an impressive Minister.TOPPING said:This discussion about the nuances of the type of customs union is PB Leaving at its finest. Similar to everyone agreeing pre-vote that an EFTA/EEA solution was the right thing and, moreover, was nailed on.
As @Luckyguy1983 says, it's all poncing around on the head of a pin by the intelligentsia. Joe Leaver will have nothing to do with a or the Customs Union. To him, that's not leaving. He wants out and quick.
I am even beginning to have some sympathy for Davis, which is a sentence I never thought I'd write.
There's been one unifying view across all wings of the Tory party for the last 15 years or so David Davis and Liam Fox are vainglorious peacocks who aren't as talented as they think they are.
Oh you mean the posh boy who is the only Tory to have won general elections in the last 20 years.
If Davis had been leader, Brown would have called an early election in 2007 and won. 0 -
Probably not, but WTO membership would go some way to silencing the Tory Farageites, and they're the ones who would cause the most mayhem. Any Brexit settlement other than that and it will be calls-for-riots-on-the-street time.williamglenn said:
Is there a form of Brexit that won't lead to the Tory party exploding in civil war?Stark_Dawning said:We will have the hardest of Brexits, if only because the Tory party will explode into civil war when the government tries to do otherwise
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Theresa May really ought to bring Dominic Grieve back into Government.
He just IDS back in his box and prove IDS is a tit.0 -
Again, no he really wouldn't. In fact Davis would have won a proper majority in 2010 rather than being forced by as Cameron was by his own incompetence and deceit to settle for a coalition. Cameron really was mile out of his depth as proved top be the case in the end.TheScreamingEagles said:
Posh boy meme?Richard_Tyndall said:
Fox I would agree with. Davis is far brighter than any of the Tories you have championed for the last 15 years. He is certainly streets head of Cameron or Osborne and would have been a far better leader. Not least because he would have killed the posh boy meme stone dead.TheScreamingEagles said:
Oh behave.Brom said:
He's always been impressive, if brainwashed Cameron supporters can now see that then he must be doing alright!TheScreamingEagles said:
David Davis is turning out to be an impressive Minister.TOPPING said:This discussion about the nuances of the type of customs union is PB Leaving at its finest. Similar to everyone agreeing pre-vote that an EFTA/EEA solution was the right thing and, moreover, was nailed on.
As @Luckyguy1983 says, it's all poncing around on the head of a pin by the intelligentsia. Joe Leaver will have nothing to do with a or the Customs Union. To him, that's not leaving. He wants out and quick.
I am even beginning to have some sympathy for Davis, which is a sentence I never thought I'd write.
There's been one unifying view across all wings of the Tory party for the last 15 years or so David Davis and Liam Fox are vainglorious peacocks who aren't as talented as they think they are.
Oh you mean the posh boy who is the only Tory to have won general elections in the last 20 years.
If Davis had been leader, Brown would have called an early election in 2007 and won.0 -
The solution to our economic woes will not come from a few pence less in tariffs. It will come when we realise that we need to make things that people want to buy. In a situation where we're competing in a world market with China and India, busting a gut to get into a Free Trade Arrangement with the EU, especially one disadvantageous to this country, is the height of pointlessness.Richard_Tyndall said:
Which is why the EFTA/EEA option is far and away the best.
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Mr. Eagles, Grieve as emissary from the EU? The man's wetter than a lettuce in a monsoon.0
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It would have but it would have reinforced the nasty party one. People needed an heir to Blair and DD wasn't it.Richard_Tyndall said:
Fox I would agree with. Davis is far brighter than any of the Tories you have championed for the last 15 years. He is certainly streets head of Cameron or Osborne and would have been a far better leader. Not least because he would have killed the posh boy meme stone dead.TheScreamingEagles said:
Oh behave.Brom said:
He's always been impressive, if brainwashed Cameron supporters can now see that then he must be doing alright!TheScreamingEagles said:
David Davis is turning out to be an impressive Minister.TOPPING said:This discussion about the nuances of the type of customs union is PB Leaving at its finest. Similar to everyone agreeing pre-vote that an EFTA/EEA solution was the right thing and, moreover, was nailed on.
As @Luckyguy1983 says, it's all poncing around on the head of a pin by the intelligentsia. Joe Leaver will have nothing to do with a or the Customs Union. To him, that's not leaving. He wants out and quick.
I am even beginning to have some sympathy for Davis, which is a sentence I never thought I'd write.
There's been one unifying view across all wings of the Tory party for the last 15 years or so David Davis and Liam Fox are vainglorious peacocks who aren't as talented as they think they are.0 -
Well said. Remainers and leavers alike ascribe a lot more to what is there than was the case. Much of what the public had in mind may be inferred - it doesn't concern me as a leaver, but a deal which did not somehow allow us to restrict movement to some degree was pretty clearly a major wish for many people - but defining options as not proper Brexit is just tactical. Would that be a good enough Brexit in the eyes of most? Possibly not. But if we are not members, it meets the only definitive rather than inferred democratic expression.Andy_Cooke said:
Oh, goody, someone else confusing their opinion with the meaning of words.CarlottaVance said:Interestingly Thornberry committed Labour to staying inside the customs union—which would mean that the UK could not do any comprehensive free-trade deals post Brexit. Indeed, if Britain stays inside the customs union, it really won’t be Brexit in the proper sense of the word.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/12/pmqs-emily-thornberrys-battle-customs-union/
Would the UK remain a member of the European Union if we did this?
If "yes", it isn't Brexit.
If "no", it is Brexit.
Anything else is personal opinion and wasn't on the ballot paper.0 -
Grieve is a QC and former Attorney General of England & Wales, he just kicked IDS's arse.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Eagles, Grieve as emissary from the EU? The man's wetter than a lettuce in a monsoon.
It was the Parliamentary equivalent of the Battle of Kleidion, except Grieve didn't blind IDS after kicking his arse.0 -
Gordon Brown wasn't it either... Blair cast a long shadow, but he was irrelevant by 2010. The Tory leadership campaign between Davis and Cameron was fought in a different era.TOPPING said:
It would have but it would have reinforced the nasty party one. People needed an heir to Blair and DD wasn't it.Richard_Tyndall said:
Fox I would agree with. Davis is far brighter than any of the Tories you have championed for the last 15 years. He is certainly streets head of Cameron or Osborne and would have been a far better leader. Not least because he would have killed the posh boy meme stone dead.TheScreamingEagles said:
Oh behave.Brom said:
He's always been impressive, if brainwashed Cameron supporters can now see that then he must be doing alright!TheScreamingEagles said:
David Davis is turning out to be an impressive Minister.TOPPING said:This discussion about the nuances of the type of customs union is PB Leaving at its finest. Similar to everyone agreeing pre-vote that an EFTA/EEA solution was the right thing and, moreover, was nailed on.
As @Luckyguy1983 says, it's all poncing around on the head of a pin by the intelligentsia. Joe Leaver will have nothing to do with a or the Customs Union. To him, that's not leaving. He wants out and quick.
I am even beginning to have some sympathy for Davis, which is a sentence I never thought I'd write.
There's been one unifying view across all wings of the Tory party for the last 15 years or so David Davis and Liam Fox are vainglorious peacocks who aren't as talented as they think they are.0 -
Mr. Eagles, and yet, I don't care.
[IDS should also not return to Cabinet. He's an unstable element. Grieve's more stable, but also more supportive of the EU's interests].0 -
Staines doesn't write it*. Simon Carr, who was the sketch writer for the Independent, does...Roger said:
Guido really doesn't do satire very well. He should take his staff to Private Eye's offices for a few weeks. He just doesn't have the subtlety to be wittyTCPoliticalBetting said:Great stuff on Lady Nugee
"Lady Nugee knows she effortlessly radiates sneering contempt for the lower orders and thus does her damned best to hide it."
“Dear, oh dear,” she sighed self-importantly, leaning forward onto the despatch box with her mitts gleefully clasped together, “we’re not asking for details. We’re asking about a central plank of the negotiations”. Not to be confused with Guy Verhofstadt, who is the central plank in the negotiations."
http://order-order.com/2016/12/07/thornberry-named-times-worst-person-year/#more-251242
http://order-order.com/2013/10/09/vicious-simon-carr-joins-guido-as-sketchwriter/
Roger and WRRRRRONNNGGGGG does together as often as Trump and the same.0 -
The ineptitude of the Government's handling of Brexit to date is revealed in stark relief by the fact that Andy Burnham is free to mock it0
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Yes, the Brown machine would have utterly crushed the insipid, plodding Davis, who just came across as gauche and reactionary.TheScreamingEagles said:
Posh boy meme?Richard_Tyndall said:
Fox I would agree with. Davis is far brighter than any of the Tories you have championed for the last 15 years. He is certainly streets head of Cameron or Osborne and would have been a far better leader. Not least because he would have killed the posh boy meme stone dead.TheScreamingEagles said:
Oh behave.Brom said:
He's always been impressive, if brainwashed Cameron supporters can now see that then he must be doing alright!TheScreamingEagles said:
David Davis is turning out to be an impressive Minister.TOPPING said:This discussion about the nuances of the type of customs union is PB Leaving at its finest. Similar to everyone agreeing pre-vote that an EFTA/EEA solution was the right thing and, moreover, was nailed on.
As @Luckyguy1983 says, it's all poncing around on the head of a pin by the intelligentsia. Joe Leaver will have nothing to do with a or the Customs Union. To him, that's not leaving. He wants out and quick.
I am even beginning to have some sympathy for Davis, which is a sentence I never thought I'd write.
There's been one unifying view across all wings of the Tory party for the last 15 years or so David Davis and Liam Fox are vainglorious peacocks who aren't as talented as they think they are.
Oh you mean the posh boy who is the only Tory to have won general elections in the last 20 years.
If Davis had been leader, Brown would have called an early election in 2007 and won.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44740000/jpg/_44740953_dd_466getty.jpg0 -
Yes, I forget that we're in the post fact, post reason stage of humanity.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Eagles, and yet, I don't care.
[IDS should also not return to Cabinet. He's an unstable element. Grieve's more stable, but also more supportive of the EU's interests].0 -
Iain Duncan Smith is thick as mince though !TheScreamingEagles said:
Grieve is a QC and former Attorney General of England & Wales, he just kicked IDS's arse.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Eagles, Grieve as emissary from the EU? The man's wetter than a lettuce in a monsoon.
It was the Parliamentary equivalent of the Battle of Kleidion, except Grieve didn't blind IDS after kicking his arse.0 -
He also believes in civil liberties, i.e., contrary to the repressive legislation passed by Blair or May.Richard_Tyndall said:
Fox I would agree with. Davis is far brighter than any of the Tories you have championed for the last 15 years. He is certainly streets head of Cameron or Osborne and would have been a far better leader. Not least because he would have killed the posh boy meme stone dead.TheScreamingEagles said:
Oh behave.Brom said:
He's always been impressive, if brainwashed Cameron supporters can now see that then he must be doing alright!TheScreamingEagles said:
David Davis is turning out to be an impressive Minister.TOPPING said:This discussion about the nuances of the type of customs union is PB Leaving at its finest. Similar to everyone agreeing pre-vote that an EFTA/EEA solution was the right thing and, moreover, was nailed on.
As @Luckyguy1983 says, it's all poncing around on the head of a pin by the intelligentsia. Joe Leaver will have nothing to do with a or the Customs Union. To him, that's not leaving. He wants out and quick.
I am even beginning to have some sympathy for Davis, which is a sentence I never thought I'd write.
There's been one unifying view across all wings of the Tory party for the last 15 years or so David Davis and Liam Fox are vainglorious peacocks who aren't as talented as they think they are.
I never noticed 'leave the EEA' or 'leave the Single Market' or 'Customs Union' on the ballot paper. Given this ambiguity, and that the vote was advisory, Parliament has every right to debate Norway-type, Swiss-type, Icelandic-type - or Belarus-type - arrangements in the light of the extremely narrow 52/48% vote.0 -
Why not reopen the coal mines while we're at it. The solution to our problems lies in a move along the value added curve. That comes from better education, a more skilled workforce..nothing to do with our EU membership. Never was.Luckyguy1983 said:
The solution to our economic woes will not come from a few pence less in tariffs. It will come when we realise that we need to make things that people want to buy. In a situation where we're competing in a world market with China and India, busting a gut to get into a Free Trade Arrangement with the EU, especially one disadvantageous to this country, is the height of pointlessness.Richard_Tyndall said:
Which is why the EFTA/EEA option is far and away the best.0 -
Agreed. But I think Joe Leaver would notice it if his job disappeared. He surely relies on experts to deal with the headache inducing intricacies of trade rules. That's why a customs union should be a cost/benefit decision.TOPPING said:This discussion about the nuances of the type of customs union is PB Leaving at its finest. Similar to everyone agreeing pre-vote that an EFTA/EEA solution was the right thing and, moreover, was nailed on.
As @Luckyguy1983 says, it's all poncing around on the head of a pin by the intelligentsia. Joe Leaver will have nothing to do with a or the Customs Union. To him, that's not leaving. He wants out and quick.
I am even beginning to have some sympathy for Davis, which is a sentence I never thought I'd write.
BTW, I don't think being in a customs union with the EU is a wonderful outcome for us. It's simply better than not being in it
0 -
And yet Davis is still in Government and Cameron is no where to be seen. His very limited achievement have mostly turned to ashes. History will not look kindly on the Bullingdon boys and nor should it.Stark_Dawning said:
Yes, the Brown machine would have utterly crushed the insipid, plodding Davis, who just came across as gauche and reactionary.TheScreamingEagles said:
Posh boy meme?Richard_Tyndall said:
Fox I would agree with. Davis is far brighter than any of the Tories you have championed for the last 15 years. He is certainly streets head of Cameron or Osborne and would have been a far better leader. Not least because he would have killed the posh boy meme stone dead.TheScreamingEagles said:
Oh behave.Brom said:
He's always been impressive, if brainwashed Cameron supporters can now see that then he must be doing alright!TheScreamingEagles said:
David Davis is turning out to be an impressive Minister.TOPPING said:This discussion about the nuances of the type of customs union is PB Leaving at its finest. Similar to everyone agreeing pre-vote that an EFTA/EEA solution was the right thing and, moreover, was nailed on.
As @Luckyguy1983 says, it's all poncing around on the head of a pin by the intelligentsia. Joe Leaver will have nothing to do with a or the Customs Union. To him, that's not leaving. He wants out and quick.
I am even beginning to have some sympathy for Davis, which is a sentence I never thought I'd write.
There's been one unifying view across all wings of the Tory party for the last 15 years or so David Davis and Liam Fox are vainglorious peacocks who aren't as talented as they think they are.
Oh you mean the posh boy who is the only Tory to have won general elections in the last 20 years.
If Davis had been leader, Brown would have called an early election in 2007 and won.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44740000/jpg/_44740953_dd_466getty.jpg0 -
I thought the solution to our economic woes was to keep pumping the bellows into the housing market whilst fanning the flames of retail spending financed by ever increasing household debt ?TOPPING said:
Why not reopen the coal mines while we're at it. The solution to our problems lies in a move along the value added curve. That comes from better education, a more skilled workforce..nothing to do with our EU membership. Never was.Luckyguy1983 said:
The solution to our economic woes will not come from a few pence less in tariffs. It will come when we realise that we need to make things that people want to buy. In a situation where we're competing in a world market with China and India, busting a gut to get into a Free Trade Arrangement with the EU, especially one disadvantageous to this country, is the height of pointlessness.Richard_Tyndall said:
Which is why the EFTA/EEA option is far and away the best.0 -
Cameron was PM for 6 years. Davis none.Richard_Tyndall said:And yet Davis is still in Government and Cameron is no where to be seen. His very limited achievement have mostly turned to ashes. History will not look kindly on the Bullingdon boys and nor should it.
And history will be kinder to those who campaigned against Brexit than those who deliver it.0 -
A very good speech by Andy Burnham on immigration ,sad though he totally out of step with his front bench.0
-
How's the weather in Kirkcaldy?Pulpstar said:
I thought the solution to our economic woes was to keep pumping the bellows into the housing market whilst fanning the flames of retail spending financed by ever increasing household debt ?TOPPING said:
Why not reopen the coal mines while we're at it. The solution to our problems lies in a move along the value added curve. That comes from better education, a more skilled workforce..nothing to do with our EU membership. Never was.Luckyguy1983 said:
The solution to our economic woes will not come from a few pence less in tariffs. It will come when we realise that we need to make things that people want to buy. In a situation where we're competing in a world market with China and India, busting a gut to get into a Free Trade Arrangement with the EU, especially one disadvantageous to this country, is the height of pointlessness.Richard_Tyndall said:
Which is why the EFTA/EEA option is far and away the best.0 -
Ha yes there is of course still that.Pulpstar said:
I thought the solution to our economic woes was to keep pumping the bellows into the housing market whilst fanning the flames of retail spending financed by ever increasing household debt ?TOPPING said:
Why not reopen the coal mines while we're at it. The solution to our problems lies in a move along the value added curve. That comes from better education, a more skilled workforce..nothing to do with our EU membership. Never was.Luckyguy1983 said:
The solution to our economic woes will not come from a few pence less in tariffs. It will come when we realise that we need to make things that people want to buy. In a situation where we're competing in a world market with China and India, busting a gut to get into a Free Trade Arrangement with the EU, especially one disadvantageous to this country, is the height of pointlessness.Richard_Tyndall said:
Which is why the EFTA/EEA option is far and away the best.0 -
If we're not leaving The customs union, then setting up Liam Fox's department will have been pointless.0
-
On Topic.
First time Trump has positive favourable numbers, confirms the New York poll, and the first time he ever beats Hillary on this metric:
https://assets.bwbx.io/documents/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/rOrpGo837s3s/v0
Bloomberg, national poll.
Trump 50/43
Hillary 41/55
Other major figures.
Obama 56/42
Biden 56/34
Pence 48/36
Ryan 47/31
Among potential 2020 Democratic Nominees:
Schumer 26/24
Warren 35/27
Sanders 53/34
Among Secretary of State contenders:
Romney 42/46
Giuliani 47/34
Gingrich 42/34
Parties:
Republican 44/44
Democratic 42/49
Trump beats Obama on handling Wall Street and Jobs, Obama beats him on Foreign Policy and they are tied on the rest.0 -
People certainly did not need an heir to Blair. They were sick and tired of the whole scam - which is one reason why Cameron consistently failed to match Blair electorally.TOPPING said:
It would have but it would have reinforced the nasty party one. People needed an heir to Blair and DD wasn't it.Richard_Tyndall said:
Fox I would agree with. Davis is far brighter than any of the Tories you have championed for the last 15 years. He is certainly streets head of Cameron or Osborne and would have been a far better leader. Not least because he would have killed the posh boy meme stone dead.TheScreamingEagles said:
Oh behave.Brom said:
He's always been impressive, if brainwashed Cameron supporters can now see that then he must be doing alright!TheScreamingEagles said:
David Davis is turning out to be an impressive Minister.TOPPING said:This discussion about the nuances of the type of customs union is PB Leaving at its finest. Similar to everyone agreeing pre-vote that an EFTA/EEA solution was the right thing and, moreover, was nailed on.
As @Luckyguy1983 says, it's all poncing around on the head of a pin by the intelligentsia. Joe Leaver will have nothing to do with a or the Customs Union. To him, that's not leaving. He wants out and quick.
I am even beginning to have some sympathy for Davis, which is a sentence I never thought I'd write.
There's been one unifying view across all wings of the Tory party for the last 15 years or so David Davis and Liam Fox are vainglorious peacocks who aren't as talented as they think they are.0 -
I once flew on PIA, never again.MTimT said:In Abu Dhabi airport waiting for my connecting flight to Karachi. Glad it is Etihad not PIA ...
0 -
Now you're just trollingrcs1000 said:
I think this is the last coupe they built:Sunil_Prasannan said:
When was the last time Norway had a coup?FF43 said:
That's why Turkey has a car industry and Norway doesn't.Richard_Tyndall said:
That is the difference between 'a' customs union and 'the' customs union. As I said the EFTA countries chose to stay outside of the EU customs union.rcs1000 said:
Turkey is in a customs union with the EU, but is not in the EU customs union. This means that it keeps its tariffs synchronised with the EU, but is free to enter into FTAs with other countries. So, for example, Turkey has an FTA with Israel, which the EU does not.Richard_Tyndall said:
My understanding is that you are wrong about being able to make your own trade deals if you are inside the customs union. This is why Norway and the other EFTA countries stayed outside the customs union even though they joined the EEA.rcs1000 said:As it's Brexit day, I'd like to remind everyone that there is a difference between:
(a) being in a customs union with the EU, and having our own relationships with other countries, which is what Turkey has
and
(b) being in the EU customs unions, and therefore being a party to all the trade deals signed by the EU
I would also like to point out that we should dis-aggregate the various EU payments. Norway's annual payments to the EU are about EUR850m. Of this, the biggest component (EUR447m) is for membership of various bodies administered by the EU, but run separately: i.e., Erasmus, the European Space Agency, CERN, Gallileo, Horizon, Copernicus, and a bunch of others. We would be able to cherry pick which ones we wished to be members of post Brexit, but I very much doubt we'd like to walk away from Erasmus, for example, just because we'd left the EU.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(automobile)#/media/File:Troll_1956.JPG
0 -
Cameron's greatest achievement will be to have accidently pulled the UK out of the EU. I suppose we should thank the fool for that. Personally I am pleased about Gay Marriage as well but there is little else to praise him for.Scott_P said:
Cameron was PM for 6 years. Davis none.Richard_Tyndall said:And yet Davis is still in Government and Cameron is no where to be seen. His very limited achievement have mostly turned to ashes. History will not look kindly on the Bullingdon boys and nor should it.
And history will be kinder to those who campaigned against Brexit than those who deliver it.0 -
Parliament will be able to veto any deal the government strikes with the European Union after Brexit, David Davis said today.
The Brexit secretary told MPs, however, that ministers must have the “flexibility to adjust” their position during negotiations. He again refused to commit the government to publishing a detailed plan for Brexit in advance of triggering Article 50, but he insisted parliament would have the final say on the outcome of the talks and pledged that the government would provide “every possible information” in advance that did not tie its hands.
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/parliament-will-be-able-to-veto-brexit-deal-says-davis-lz5w6wgmt0 -
I'd suggest that he believes he is supporting British interests. That you equate this, and that belief, with supporting EU interests says far more about you than him.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Eagles, and yet, I don't care.
[IDS should also not return to Cabinet. He's an unstable element. Grieve's more stable, but also more supportive of the EU's interests].0 -
Sean and I are having a discussion on twitter over Brexit giving him the horn, his replies are awesome.
https://twitter.com/thomasknox/status/806546713062309888
https://twitter.com/thomasknox/status/8065468617588080640 -
Mr. Matt, a man cannot ride two horses.0
-
After 10 years of Blair people wanted an heir to Blair as much as they wanted an heir to Thatcher in 1990.TOPPING said:
It would have but it would have reinforced the nasty party one. People needed an heir to Blair and DD wasn't it.
People wanted change.
I would have voted Tory if DD was their leader in 2010 to get rid of New Labour, but I have never thought of voting Tory under Cameron who was continuity New Labour, so I stuck with the LD in 2010 and then moved to Labour after the coalition.0 -
Hey, it's worked up until nowPulpstar said:
I thought the solution to our economic woes was to keep pumping the bellows into the housing market whilst fanning the flames of retail spending financed by ever increasing household debt ?TOPPING said:
Why not reopen the coal mines while we're at it. The solution to our problems lies in a move along the value added curve. That comes from better education, a more skilled workforce..nothing to do with our EU membership. Never was.Luckyguy1983 said:
The solution to our economic woes will not come from a few pence less in tariffs. It will come when we realise that we need to make things that people want to buy. In a situation where we're competing in a world market with China and India, busting a gut to get into a Free Trade Arrangement with the EU, especially one disadvantageous to this country, is the height of pointlessness.Richard_Tyndall said:
Which is why the EFTA/EEA option is far and away the best. 0 -
Tata Steel has made a commitment to secure jobs and production at Port Talbot and other steelworks across the UK, unions have said.0
-
There's still the WTO schedules, which will be a HUGE negotiation. The status of the FTAs that are in place with the EU is uncertain, even under the Customs Union. At the very least they will need to be extended and ratified to include the UK. I am guessing some countries will agree readily, while others hold off. But i don't know.TheScreamingEagles said:If we're not leaving The customs union, then setting up Liam Fox's department will have been pointless.
0 -
The reason why:FrancisUrquhart said:Tata Steel has made a commitment to secure jobs and production at Port Talbot and other steelworks across the UK, unions have said.
The Steel price has gone up 77% in a year.
The price of Iron has doubled in a year.
I guess that making Steel is profitable again.0 -
It appears they have announced a minimum 5 year commitment though, with plans for 10 years of investment. Which is good news.Speedy said:
The reason why:FrancisUrquhart said:Tata Steel has made a commitment to secure jobs and production at Port Talbot and other steelworks across the UK, unions have said.
The Steel price has gone up 77% in a year.
The price of Iron has doubled in a year.
I guess that making Steel is profitable again.0 -
Scott doesn't do original thought very well, Sean. Go easy on him.SeanT said:
lolScott_P said:
Cameron was PM for 6 years. Davis none.Richard_Tyndall said:And yet Davis is still in Government and Cameron is no where to be seen. His very limited achievement have mostly turned to ashes. History will not look kindly on the Bullingdon boys and nor should it.
And history will be kinder to those who campaigned against Brexit than those who deliver it.0 -
Nobody mention Monty Hall...MaxPB said:
Scott doesn't do original thought very well, Sean. Go easy on him.SeanT said:
lolScott_P said:
Cameron was PM for 6 years. Davis none.Richard_Tyndall said:And yet Davis is still in Government and Cameron is no where to be seen. His very limited achievement have mostly turned to ashes. History will not look kindly on the Bullingdon boys and nor should it.
And history will be kinder to those who campaigned against Brexit than those who deliver it.0 -
I call this the Top Gear ( Clarkson version) effect:
https://twitter.com/mattklewis/status/806546882684194818
Doing stuff by yourself makes you brag that you did it.0 -
Despite Brexit, innit.FrancisUrquhart said:
It appears they have announced a minimum 5 year commitment though, with plans for 10 years of investment. Which is good news.Speedy said:
The reason why:FrancisUrquhart said:Tata Steel has made a commitment to secure jobs and production at Port Talbot and other steelworks across the UK, unions have said.
The Steel price has gone up 77% in a year.
The price of Iron has doubled in a year.
I guess that making Steel is profitable again.0 -
They are making £10m profit per month since we voted to leave.FrancisUrquhart said:Tata Steel has made a commitment to secure jobs and production at Port Talbot and other steelworks across the UK, unions have said.
0 -
Except sex.Speedy said:(Snip)
Doing stuff by yourself makes you brag that you did it.0 -
so like Camerons DFID thenTheScreamingEagles said:If we're not leaving The customs union, then setting up Liam Fox's department will have been pointless.
0 -
0
-
Mr. Hopkins, aren't we heading for a 42 hour day? It'll just take longer to happen.0
-
British hostage John Cantlie appears in new ISIS video talking about coalition airstrikes in Mosul
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4010040/British-hostage-John-Cantlie-appears-new-ISIS-video-talking-coalition-airstrikes-Mosul.html0 -
Err DFID was set up in 1997Alanbrooke said:
so like Camerons DFID thenTheScreamingEagles said:If we're not leaving The customs union, then setting up Liam Fox's department will have been pointless.
0 -
Won't the earth have burned up before we get that far?Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Hopkins, aren't we heading for a 42 hour day? It'll just take longer to happen.
0 -
Morris_Dancer said:
Mr. Hopkins, aren't we heading for a 42 hour day? It'll just take longer to happen.
True. Perhaps we could have the headline: Earth heading for vaporisation as Sun continues to expand.
0 -
If God did create the Sun and the Earth, He could have at least put us on an orbit that was exactly 365 days, and a spin that was exactly 24 hours!MarkHopkins said:
Darn Brexit....
Earth heading for 25-hour day as orbit slows0 -
Who knows, maybe we'll have worked out how to refuel the sun.Carolus_Rex said:
Won't the earth have burned up before we get that far?Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Hopkins, aren't we heading for a 42 hour day? It'll just take longer to happen.
0 -
I think those here who thinks that invoking tariffs on our car imports will kill the German car industry is being a bit silly.TGOHF said:
Under what circumstances would the EU invoke tariffs on our car industry that wouldn't result in the mutual destruction of a multitude of their industries ?Richard_Nabavi said:
It means that they, probably rightly, consider that the minor disadvantage of not being able to negotiate our own trade deals is outweighed by the humongous advantage of not wrecking our car industry.TGOHF said:re Labour's new customs union policy - does that mean they don't want new free trade deals with the rest of the world ?
Be realistic..
I drive a BMW. What else could I buy ? A Mercedes, an Audi...... Certainly not a Qashqai, if that is still produced here.
On the other hand, a Qashqai exported to Europe with a 10% duty added may not be such a good buy over there. There is plenty of competition.
The German car industry still exported large numbers to the UK, when our exchange rate was £1= € 1.06 and when it was € 1.42. They will survive, believe me. I am not sure about ours.0 -
I have a mental image of the last two humans on the planet still arguing about the impact of Brexit even as the seas start to boil!RobD said:
Who knows, maybe we'll have worked out how to refuel the sun.Carolus_Rex said:
Won't the earth have burned up before we get that far?Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Hopkins, aren't we heading for a 42 hour day? It'll just take longer to happen.
0 -
Exactly so. In fact, if we were adding enough value we could cope with increased tariffs and disruption to supply chains in our stride. As it is though.....TOPPING said:
Why not reopen the coal mines while we're at it. The solution to our problems lies in a move along the value added curve. That comes from better education, a more skilled workforce..nothing to do with our EU membership. Never was.Luckyguy1983 said:
The solution to our economic woes will not come from a few pence less in tariffs. It will come when we realise that we need to make things that people want to buy. In a situation where we're competing in a world market with China and India, busting a gut to get into a Free Trade Arrangement with the EU, especially one disadvantageous to this country, is the height of pointlessness.Richard_Tyndall said:
Which is why the EFTA/EEA option is far and away the best.0 -
Davis was redolent of the bad old Conservative Party thrown out 13 years prior. Dave was a fresh, pubbable face and he did well to get the result he did in 2010.Richard_Tyndall said:
People certainly did not need an heir to Blair. They were sick and tired of the whole scam - which is one reason why Cameron consistently failed to match Blair electorally.TOPPING said:
It would have but it would have reinforced the nasty party one. People needed an heir to Blair and DD wasn't it.Richard_Tyndall said:
Fox I would agree with. Davis is far brighter than any of the Tories you have championed for the last 15 years. He is certainly streets head of Cameron or Osborne and would have been a far better leader. Not least because he would have killed the posh boy meme stone dead.TheScreamingEagles said:
Oh behave.Brom said:
He's always been impressive, if brainwashed Cameron supporters can now see that then he must be doing alright!TheScreamingEagles said:
David Davis is turning out to be an impressive Minister.TOPPING said:This discussion about the nuances of the type of customs union is PB Leaving at its finest. Similar to everyone agreeing pre-vote that an EFTA/EEA solution was the right thing and, moreover, was nailed on.
As @Luckyguy1983 says, it's all poncing around on the head of a pin by the intelligentsia. Joe Leaver will have nothing to do with a or the Customs Union. To him, that's not leaving. He wants out and quick.
I am even beginning to have some sympathy for Davis, which is a sentence I never thought I'd write.
There's been one unifying view across all wings of the Tory party for the last 15 years or so David Davis and Liam Fox are vainglorious peacocks who aren't as talented as they think they are.0 -
@Richard_Tyndall
Davis has some qualities to commend him, but his idiotic support for a failed and wrong death penalty undermines all of them I am afraid.0 -
Mr. Rex, well, that's solar warming for you.
Mr. Hopkins, or "Universe heading for total heat death rendering human endeavour futile".0 -
Yes and Cameron kept it there and gave it more money to wasteTheScreamingEagles said:
Err DFID was set up in 1997Alanbrooke said:
so like Camerons DFID thenTheScreamingEagles said:If we're not leaving The customs union, then setting up Liam Fox's department will have been pointless.
I notice we now have a steel industry now that Osborne has gone, could the two be linked ?0 -
As I said, people (maybe not you) were sick to death of the Tories in 1997. They needed someone who represented a clean break with that Party. DD was not it.Speedy said:
After 10 years of Blair people wanted an heir to Blair as much as they wanted an heir to Thatcher in 1990.TOPPING said:
It would have but it would have reinforced the nasty party one. People needed an heir to Blair and DD wasn't it.
People wanted change.
I would have voted Tory if DD was their leader in 2010 to get rid of New Labour, but I have never thought of voting Tory under Cameron who was continuity New Labour, so I stuck with the LD in 2010 and then moved to Labour after the coalition.
And there was an awful lot of affection for Tone. That is not to say he didn't usher in the age of spin and PR but he was only giving people what they wanted.0 -
Who cares what they wanted in 1997. Its what they wanted 13 years later that mattered and by that time 'heir to Blair' was most certainly meant as an insult.TOPPING said:
As I said, people (maybe not you) were sick to death of the Tories in 1997. They needed someone who represented a clean break with that Party. DD was not it.Speedy said:
After 10 years of Blair people wanted an heir to Blair as much as they wanted an heir to Thatcher in 1990.TOPPING said:
It would have but it would have reinforced the nasty party one. People needed an heir to Blair and DD wasn't it.
People wanted change.
I would have voted Tory if DD was their leader in 2010 to get rid of New Labour, but I have never thought of voting Tory under Cameron who was continuity New Labour, so I stuck with the LD in 2010 and then moved to Labour after the coalition.
And there was an awful lot of affection for Tone. That is not to say he didn't usher in the age of spin and PR but he was only giving people what they wanted.0 -
That's the fear of Cantille,how much longer is he useful to them,like you say sean,poor bastard.SeanT said:
Jesus. Poor bastard.FrancisUrquhart said:British hostage John Cantlie appears in new ISIS video talking about coalition airstrikes in Mosul
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4010040/British-hostage-John-Cantlie-appears-new-ISIS-video-talking-coalition-airstrikes-Mosul.html
The physical health and demeanour of poor John Cantlie has been a good proxy for the state of ISIS since their started their rampage.
Judging by this latest vid, ISIS are close to extinction.0 -
Wrong, Sean. He would have been spanked by Gordon in the autumn of 2007, losing by 50 odd seats. Cameron is, was, and will forever be, a massively underestimated Tory leader. He shares with Sir John Major that unfortunate chalice.SeanT said:
Looking back, Davis would have made a far superior PM to Cameron. Dave was a vastly overrated mediocrity (as we now see). Davis is a bit flighty and vain, but he is also canny and plausible and has a backstory which would have given him a 50 seat majority.Jobabob said:@Richard_Tyndall
Davis has some qualities to commend him, but his idiotic support for a failed and wrong death penalty undermines all of them I am afraid.
"Let sunshine win the day"
FFS. Sod off, Cameron, you epicene poseur0 -
If your BMW is a right hand drive then it is not made in Germany. It is made in South Africa.surbiton said:
I think those here who thinks that invoking tariffs on our car imports will kill the German car industry is being a bit silly.TGOHF said:
Under what circumstances would the EU invoke tariffs on our car industry that wouldn't result in the mutual destruction of a multitude of their industries ?Richard_Nabavi said:
It means that they, probably rightly, consider that the minor disadvantage of not being able to negotiate our own trade deals is outweighed by the humongous advantage of not wrecking our car industry.TGOHF said:re Labour's new customs union policy - does that mean they don't want new free trade deals with the rest of the world ?
Be realistic..
I drive a BMW. What else could I buy ? A Mercedes, an Audi...... Certainly not a Qashqai, if that is still produced here.
On the other hand, a Qashqai exported to Europe with a 10% duty added may not be such a good buy over there. There is plenty of competition.
The German car industry still exported large numbers to the UK, when our exchange rate was £1= € 1.06 and when it was € 1.42. They will survive, believe me. I am not sure about ours.0 -
Yes it was but it worked for him because people were used to Tone as PM so the jump the Conservative Party, with a Tone-like figure at its head, was not as large as it would have been with DD in charge.Richard_Tyndall said:
Who cares what they wanted in 1997. Its what they wanted 13 years later that mattered and by that time 'heir to Blair' was most certainly meant as an insult.TOPPING said:
As I said, people (maybe not you) were sick to death of the Tories in 1997. They needed someone who represented a clean break with that Party. DD was not it.Speedy said:
After 10 years of Blair people wanted an heir to Blair as much as they wanted an heir to Thatcher in 1990.TOPPING said:
It would have but it would have reinforced the nasty party one. People needed an heir to Blair and DD wasn't it.
People wanted change.
I would have voted Tory if DD was their leader in 2010 to get rid of New Labour, but I have never thought of voting Tory under Cameron who was continuity New Labour, so I stuck with the LD in 2010 and then moved to Labour after the coalition.
And there was an awful lot of affection for Tone. That is not to say he didn't usher in the age of spin and PR but he was only giving people what they wanted.0 -
Nope, he through away a 20 point lead in just a few months through his idiocy. Against Brown for Christ's sake.TOPPING said:
Davis was redolent of the bad old Conservative Party thrown out 13 years prior. Dave was a fresh, pubbable face and he did well to get the result he did in 2010.Richard_Tyndall said:
People certainly did not need an heir to Blair. They were sick and tired of the whole scam - which is one reason why Cameron consistently failed to match Blair electorally.TOPPING said:
It would have but it would have reinforced the nasty party one. People needed an heir to Blair and DD wasn't it.Richard_Tyndall said:
Fox I would agree with. Davis is far brighter than any of the Tories you have championed for the last 15 years. He is certainly streets head of Cameron or Osborne and would have been a far better leader. Not least because he would have killed the posh boy meme stone dead.TheScreamingEagles said:
Oh behave.Brom said:
He's always been impressive, if brainwashed Cameron supporters can now see that then he must be doing alright!TheScreamingEagles said:
David Davis is turning out to be an impressive Minister.TOPPING said:This discussion about the nuances of the type of customs union is PB Leaving at its finest. Similar to everyone agreeing pre-vote that an EFTA/EEA solution was the right thing and, moreover, was nailed on.
As @Luckyguy1983 says, it's all poncing around on the head of a pin by the intelligentsia. Joe Leaver will have nothing to do with a or the Customs Union. To him, that's not leaving. He wants out and quick.
I am even beginning to have some sympathy for Davis, which is a sentence I never thought I'd write.
There's been one unifying view across all wings of the Tory party for the last 15 years or so David Davis and Liam Fox are vainglorious peacocks who aren't as talented as they think they are.0 -
Evening all.
Trump, person of the year, - not a great surprise, he took on the best the Republicans and Democrats had to offer, which wasn’t great admittedly and thrashed them at their own game.0 -
Nope. Blair was widely and rightly despised by 2010. Cameron trying to emulate him was just one of the reasons he was not trusted. Davis would have walked all over Brown.TOPPING said:
Yes it was but it worked for him because people were used to Tone as PM so the jump the Conservative Party, with a Tone-like figure at its head, was not as large as it would have been with DD in charge.Richard_Tyndall said:
Who cares what they wanted in 1997. Its what they wanted 13 years later that mattered and by that time 'heir to Blair' was most certainly meant as an insult.TOPPING said:
As I said, people (maybe not you) were sick to death of the Tories in 1997. They needed someone who represented a clean break with that Party. DD was not it.Speedy said:
After 10 years of Blair people wanted an heir to Blair as much as they wanted an heir to Thatcher in 1990.TOPPING said:
It would have but it would have reinforced the nasty party one. People needed an heir to Blair and DD wasn't it.
People wanted change.
I would have voted Tory if DD was their leader in 2010 to get rid of New Labour, but I have never thought of voting Tory under Cameron who was continuity New Labour, so I stuck with the LD in 2010 and then moved to Labour after the coalition.
And there was an awful lot of affection for Tone. That is not to say he didn't usher in the age of spin and PR but he was only giving people what they wanted.0 -
Wise not to judge past leaders quickly. People cheered when Flavius Phocas usurped the throne from miserly Maurice (whom he mutilated). But it turned out he had a penchant for torturing people, and they soon cheered when he in turn was deposed, by the rather more splendid (if, ultimately, horrendously ill-fated) Heraclius.0
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Polls, eh?Richard_Tyndall said:
Nope, he through away a 20 point lead in just a few months through his idiocy. Against Brown for Christ's sake.TOPPING said:
Davis was redolent of the bad old Conservative Party thrown out 13 years prior. Dave was a fresh, pubbable face and he did well to get the result he did in 2010.Richard_Tyndall said:
People certainly did not need an heir to Blair. They were sick and tired of the whole scam - which is one reason why Cameron consistently failed to match Blair electorally.TOPPING said:
It would have but it would have reinforced the nasty party one. People needed an heir to Blair and DD wasn't it.Richard_Tyndall said:
Fox I would agree with. Davis is far brighter than any of the Tories you have championed for the last 15 years. He is certainly streets head of Cameron or Osborne and would have been a far better leader. Not least because he would have killed the posh boy meme stone dead.TheScreamingEagles said:
Oh behave.Brom said:
He's always been impressive, if brainwashed Cameron supporters can now see that then he must be doing alright!TheScreamingEagles said:
David Davis is turning out to be an impressive Minister.TOPPING said:This discussion about the nuances of the type of customs union is PB Leaving at its finest. Similar to everyone agreeing pre-vote that an EFTA/EEA solution was the right thing and, moreover, was nailed on.
As @Luckyguy1983 says, it's all poncing around on the head of a pin by the intelligentsia. Joe Leaver will have nothing to do with a or the Customs Union. To him, that's not leaving. He wants out and quick.
I am even beginning to have some sympathy for Davis, which is a sentence I never thought I'd write.
There's been one unifying view across all wings of the Tory party for the last 15 years or so David Davis and Liam Fox are vainglorious peacocks who aren't as talented as they think they are.0 -
Their absolute value may be wrong, but the trend is probably accurate.TOPPING said:
Polls, eh?Richard_Tyndall said:
Nope, he through away a 20 point lead in just a few months through his idiocy. Against Brown for Christ's sake.TOPPING said:
Davis was redolent of the bad old Conservative Party thrown out 13 years prior. Dave was a fresh, pubbable face and he did well to get the result he did in 2010.Richard_Tyndall said:
People certainly did not need an heir to Blair. They were sick and tired of the whole scam - which is one reason why Cameron consistently failed to match Blair electorally.TOPPING said:
It would have but it would have reinforced the nasty party one. People needed an heir to Blair and DD wasn't it.Richard_Tyndall said:
Fox I would agree with. Davis is far brighter than any of the Tories you have championed for the last 15 years. He is certainly streets head of Cameron or Osborne and would have been a far better leader. Not least because he would have killed the posh boy meme stone dead.TheScreamingEagles said:
Oh behave.Brom said:
He's always been impressive, if brainwashed Cameron supporters can now see that then he must be doing alright!TheScreamingEagles said:
David Davis is turning out to be an impressive Minister.TOPPING said:This discussion about the nuances of the type of customs union is PB Leaving at its finest. Similar to everyone agreeing pre-vote that an EFTA/EEA solution was the right thing and, moreover, was nailed on.
As @Luckyguy1983 says, it's all poncing around on the head of a pin by the intelligentsia. Joe Leaver will have nothing to do with a or the Customs Union. To him, that's not leaving. He wants out and quick.
I am even beginning to have some sympathy for Davis, which is a sentence I never thought I'd write.
There's been one unifying view across all wings of the Tory party for the last 15 years or so David Davis and Liam Fox are vainglorious peacocks who aren't as talented as they think they are.0 -
The evidence is already there of falling sales projections among German companies in this country due to the fluctuation of currency.surbiton said:
I think those here who thinks that invoking tariffs on our car imports will kill the German car industry is being a bit silly.TGOHF said:
Under what circumstances would the EU invoke tariffs on our car industry that wouldn't result in the mutual destruction of a multitude of their industries ?Richard_Nabavi said:
It means that they, probably rightly, consider that the minor disadvantage of not being able to negotiate our own trade deals is outweighed by the humongous advantage of not wrecking our car industry.TGOHF said:re Labour's new customs union policy - does that mean they don't want new free trade deals with the rest of the world ?
Be realistic..
I drive a BMW. What else could I buy ? A Mercedes, an Audi...... Certainly not a Qashqai, if that is still produced here.
On the other hand, a Qashqai exported to Europe with a 10% duty added may not be such a good buy over there. There is plenty of competition.
The German car industry still exported large numbers to the UK, when our exchange rate was £1= € 1.06 and when it was € 1.42. They will survive, believe me. I am not sure about ours.
https://www.ft.com/content/a65b8912-b88f-11e6-961e-a1acd97f622d
"Matthias Wissmann, the VDA’s head, said the main factor was “general uncertainty” following the Brexit vote, as well sterling depreciation. “When cars are 10-15 per cent more expensive, that doesn’t exactly put people in the mood to buy,” he said."
Tariffs would most likely exacerbate that.
This is worth watching.
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/video/bad-brexit-germany-auto-industry-083100977.html0 -
Forget the NHS, here is the ISHS !
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-1194178/Australian-jihadi-appears-ISIS-Health-Service-video.html0
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