So having whined incessantly for 40 years, and toppled at least one Government, having won a vote on a narrow margin after the most dishonest campaign in living memory, Brexiteers will only be happy if everyone else shuts up?
I believe the appropriate phrase is, Suck it up!!
The forces that gave Brexit and Trump momentum coalesced around grievance rather than vision. There was no agenda, no genuinely thought-out project that the winners could soberly set about executing, just resentment. And the grievance narrative must be continued even in success because that is pretty much the whole energising principle.
Yes the Leavers have no vision, no fucking ideas, and nothing left in the tank. We are being led into a brave new world by a coalition of the myopic, clueless and listless.
Interesting chart of Tory constituencies by majority and Remain vote share. There are some on the left of the line (ostensibly the danger zone) where I think it's unlikely the Tories would be in trouble, but also a few below the line where they look vulnerable.
Croydon Central, Brighton Kemptown, Twickenham, and Cheltenham are vulnerable. The others aren't.
A thought for those thinking that they can avoid brexit. When people goto the ballot box and win and it still makes no difference they learn the ballot box doesnt work. When the ballot box ceases to work they fall back on other options
Do you really want to tell 17 million people the ballot box no longer works for them? While most will do little more than grumble there will be enough in there willing to go further to exert their will, even if its only 0.1 percent thats still 17000 people.
The type of people who tend to get upset are hard right UKIP and Tory members, I don't really see them turning over cars and setting them on fire in the streets. They will be annoyed but not as irate as the people with incomes in the lower 50% of the population will be when their living standards noticeably deteriorate.
Yet those same lower 50% of the population have had and will continue to have their living standards noticeably deteriorate because of uncontrolled immigration.
Or is that deemed an acceptable deterioration of living standards ?
.
Both sides lied, lied and lied again. How many Remain voters did it in fear of the End of the World, or "the end of western political civilisation" as Donald Tusk foretold? How many voted Remain because the Remain camp insisted that on Brexit we would have to leave the Single Market, something which is now, suddenly, debatable, especially for those same Remainers?
We don't know who believed what. All we know is that we voted LEAVE. So we LEAVE.
This is ridiculous. I cannot believe I am having arguments with apparently sane adults - on pb of all places - who are actively trying to ignore and subvert the democratic will of the British people, expressed in a once-in-a-lifetime referendum, which the government explicitly promised to obey, in a leaflet sent to all British homes.
This is CRAZY. Stop now.
To some people democracy is only a means to an end.
When democracy no longer leads to that end, or worse away from it, then it can be dispensed with.
The only purpose of democracy is to transfer power or radically change things without violence when there is high dissatisfaction with the status quo. But if it is abused by the majority and there is a sizable minority who remain dissatisfied, then it will not fulfil its purpose. That is the tyranny of the majority. Obviously the obverse is even more true.
We voted to radically change things, now people like you are trying to ignore it
A thought for those thinking that they can avoid brexit. When people goto the ballot box and win and it still makes no difference they learn the ballot box doesnt work. When the ballot box ceases to work they fall back on other options
Do you really want to tell 17 million people the ballot box no longer works for them? While most will do little more than grumble there will be enough in there willing to go further to exert their will, even if its only 0.1 percent thats still 17000 people.
The type of people who tend to get upset are hard right UKIP and Tory members, I don't really see them turning over cars and setting them on fire in the streets. They will be annoyed but not as irate as the people with incomes in the lower 50% of the population will be when their living standards noticeably deteriorate.
Yet those same lower 50% of the population have had and will continue to have their living standards noticeably deteriorate because of uncontrolled immigration.
Or is that deemed an acceptable deterioration of living standards ?
.
Both sides lied, lied and lied again. How many Remain voters did it in fear of the End of the World, or "the end of western political civilisation" as Donald Tusk foretold? How many voted Remain because the Remain camp insisted that on Brexit we would have to leave the Single Market, something which is now, suddenly, debatable, especially for those same Remainers?
We don't know who believed what. All we know is that we voted LEAVE. So we LEAVE.
This is ridiculous. I cannot believe I am having arguments with apparently sane adults - on pb of all places - who are actively trying to ignore and subvert the democratic will of the British people, expressed in a once-in-a-lifetime referendum, which the government explicitly promised to obey, in a leaflet sent to all British homes.
This is CRAZY. Stop now.
To some people democracy is only a means to an end.
When democracy no longer leads to that end, or worse away from it, then it can be dispensed with.
The only purpose of democracy is to transfer power or radically change things without violence when there is high dissatisfaction with the status quo. But if it is abused by the majority and there is a sizable minority who remain dissatisfied, then it will not fulfil its purpose. That is the tyranny of the majority. Obviously the obverse is even more true.
A thought for those thinking that they can avoid brexit. When people goto the ballot box and win and it still makes no difference they learn the ballot box doesnt work. When the ballot box ceases to work they fall back on other options
Do you really want to tell 17 million people the ballot box no longer works for them? While most will do little more than grumble there will be enough in there willing to go further to exert their will, even if its only 0.1 percent thats still 17000 people.
The type of people who tend to get upset are hard right UKIP and Tory members, I don't really see them turning over cars and setting them on fire in the streets. They will be annoyed but not as irate as the people with incomes in the lower 50% of the population will be when their living standards noticeably deteriorate.
Yet those same lower 50% of the population have had and will continue to have their living standards noticeably deteriorate because of uncontrolled immigration.
Or is that deemed an acceptable deterioration of living standards ?
.
Both sides lied, lied and lied again. How many Remain voters did it in fear of the End of the World, or "the end of western political civilisation" as Donald Tusk foretold? How many voted Remain because the Remain camp insisted that on Brexit we would have to leave the Single Market, something which is now, suddenly, debatable, especially for those same Remainers?
We don't know who believed what. All we know is that we voted LEAVE. So we LEAVE.
This is ridiculous. I cannot believe I am having arguments with apparently sane adults - on pb of all places - who are actively trying to ignore and subvert the democratic will of the British people, expressed in a once-in-a-lifetime referendum, which the government explicitly promised to obey, in a leaflet sent to all British homes.
This is CRAZY. Stop now.
To some people democracy is only a means to an end.
When democracy no longer leads to that end, or worse away from it, then it can be dispensed with.
The only purpose of democracy is to transfer power or radically change things without violence when there is high dissatisfaction with the status quo. But if it is abused by the majority and there is a sizable minority who remain dissatisfied, then it will not fulfil its purpose. That is the tyranny of the majority. Obviously the obverse is even more true.
Fortunately, we don't face a situation where the majority is abusing its powers.
So having whined incessantly for 40 years, and toppled at least one Government, having won a vote on a narrow margin after the most dishonest campaign in living memory, Brexiteers will only be happy if everyone else shuts up?
I believe the appropriate phrase is, Suck it up!!
The forces that gave Brexit and Trump momentum coalesced around grievance rather than vision. There was no agenda, no genuinely thought-out project that the winners could soberly set about executing, just resentment. And the grievance narrative must be continued even in success because that is pretty much the whole energising principle.
Yes the Leavers have no vision, no fucking ideas, and nothing left in the tank. We are being led into a brave new world by a coalition of the myopic, clueless and listless.
so basically no change from the days of Blair Brown and Cameron
So what will the recently arrived refugees do in Germany?
Nothing. The same as now. Remember Mrs Merkel's plea to industry and her new idea to subsidise their qualifications with interest free loans and grants? That's because none of them can find work. They don't speak German, most are unskilled which, as I said, is a closed shop and there is a general weariness of outsiders.
You don't half talk some nonsense sometimes. According to this article, for example, about 50,000 refugees started work in Germany between September 2015 and September 2016. OK, most are still unemployed, but it's simply false to say they aren't getting jobs. Some are, and many others are entering apprenticeships.
When I arrived in Germany in 1998 with no Germany qualifications (edit: and rather limited spoken German), it took me less than a month to find a job as a software developer.
Because software development is unskilled work? I'm sure I could get a job in banking tomorrow if I wanted.
That was a separate point, just to further illustrate that Germany is not the closed shop you think it is. Of course most of the 50,000 are doing less skilled work.
That's a 5% employment rate among refugees. Pretty poor.
But it's not the zero that you claimed without any basis whatsoever. It also doesn't include those who have set up their own businesses or are in apprenticeships or education. You gave the impression that they are all sitting around twiddling their thumbs. That is simply not the case.
Look at your stupid argument. 5% is a pathetic figure and you're defending it. Also, those who are in apprenticeships and other education are getting into the closed shop.
At the time of this article from July 2016, there was 131,000 unemployed refugees in Germany, corresponding to an unemployment rate of 44%. Not good, but nowhere near the 100% you seemed to be claiming.
So having whined incessantly for 40 years, and toppled at least one Government, having won a vote on a narrow margin after the most dishonest campaign in living memory, Brexiteers will only be happy if everyone else shuts up?
I believe the appropriate phrase is, Suck it up!!
The forces that gave Brexit and Trump momentum coalesced around grievance rather than vision. There was no agenda, no genuinely thought-out project that the winners could soberly set about executing, just resentment. And the grievance narrative must be continued even in success because that is pretty much the whole energising principle.
Yes the Leavers have no vision, no fucking ideas, and nothing left in the tank. We are being led into a brave new world by a coalition of the myopic, clueless and listless.
If the status quo was so great as you think, why did you lose?
A thought for those thinking that they can avoid brexit. When people goto the ballot box and win and it still makes no difference they learn the ballot box doesnt work. When the ballot box ceases to work they fall back on other options
Do you really want to tell 17 million people the ballot box no longer works for them? While most will do little more than grumble there will be enough in there willing to go further to exert their will, even if its only 0.1 percent thats still 17000 people.
The type of people who tend to get upset are hard right UKIP and Tory members, I don't really see them turning over cars and setting them on fire in the streets. They will be annoyed but not as irate as the people with incomes in the lower 50% of the population will be when their living standards noticeably deteriorate.
Yet those same lower 50% of the population have had and will continue to have their living standards noticeably deteriorate because of uncontrolled immigration.
Or is that deemed an acceptable deterioration of living standards ?
.
Both si This is CRAZY. Stop now.
To some people democracy is only a means to an end.
When democracy no longer leads to that end, or worse away from it, then it can be dispensed with.
The only purpose of democracy is to transfer power or radically change things without violence when there is high dissatisfaction with the status quo. But if it is abused by the majority and there is a sizable minority who remain dissatisfied, then it will not fulfil its purpose. That is the tyranny of the majority. Obviously the obverse is even more true.
Watch this.
This is David Cameron, the British prime minister, promising that the British people must make the final decision to leave or stay in the EU, in their referendum. He explicitly says this is a once in a generation decision, the biggest we will all make in a lifetime. He says it will be the final decision, he says there will be no second referendum. He says "if we vote to Leave we will Leave". He says "the vote will be respected, not ignored." He says all this. Explicitly.
There is no coming back from this for British democracy. If the vote is ignored I believe there will be violence, and the damage done to our political system will be tragic and irreparable.
So what will the recently arrived refugees do in Germany?
Nothing. The same as now. Remember Mrs Merkel's plea to industry and her new idea to subsidise their qualifications with interest free loans and grants? That's because none of them can find work. They don't speak German, most are unskilled which, as I said, is a closed shop and there is a general weariness of outsiders.
You don't half talk some nonsense sometimes. According to this article, for example, about 50,000 refugees started work in Germany between September 2015 and September 2016. OK, most are still unemployed, but it's simply false to say they aren't getting jobs. Some are, and many others are entering apprenticeships.
When I arrived in Germany in 1998 with no Germany qualifications (edit: and rather limited spoken German), it took me less than a month to find a job as a software developer.
Because software development is unskilled work? I'm sure I could get a job in banking tomorrow if I wanted.
That was a separate point, just to further illustrate that Germany is not the closed shop you think it is. Of course most of the 50,000 are doing less skilled work.
That's a 5% employment rate among refugees. Pretty poor.
But it's not the zero that you claimed without any basis whatsoever. It also doesn't include those who have set up their own businesses or are in apprenticeships or education. You gave the impression that they are all sitting around twiddling their thumbs. That is simply not the case.
Look at your stupid argument. 5% is a pathetic figure and you're defending it. Also, those who are in apprenticeships and other education are getting into the closed shop.
At the time of this article from July 2016, there was 131,000 unemployed refugees in Germany, corresponding to an unemployment rate of 44%. Not good, but nowhere near the 100% you seemed to be claiming.
AIUI it is both a minimum and maximum as withdrawal begins at 17h.
They still profit, just not £ for £.
All means tested systems will have some disincentives but the alternative is to move entirely to universal or contributory benefits.
Some people cannot contribute due to family/health reasons, and universal systems end up with billionaires getting free TV licences and handouts for their fuel bills.
Interesting chart of Tory constituencies by majority and Remain vote share. There are some on the left of the line (ostensibly the danger zone) where I think it's unlikely the Tories would be in trouble, but also a few below the line where they look vulnerable.
Croydon Central, Brighton Kemptown, Twickenham, and Cheltenham are vulnerable. The others aren't.
I wouldn't be so sure. Tory Remainia is angry. 2017 could be the year of the Open fightback.
So having whined incessantly for 40 years, and toppled at least one Government, having won a vote on a narrow margin after the most dishonest campaign in living memory, Brexiteers will only be happy if everyone else shuts up?
I believe the appropriate phrase is, Suck it up!!
The forces that gave Brexit and Trump momentum coalesced around grievance rather than vision. There was no agenda, no genuinely thought-out project that the winners could soberly set about executing, just resentment. And the grievance narrative must be continued even in success because that is pretty much the whole energising principle.
Yes the Leavers have no vision, no fucking ideas, and nothing left in the tank. We are being led into a brave new world by a coalition of the myopic, clueless and listless.
If the status quo was so great as you think, why did you lose?
Theresa May to dare Parliament to 'defy the will of the people' if she loses Article 50 court battle
It looks like no Brexit without constitutional reform.
One minister in Mrs May’s Government said that any attempt by peers to block Brexit it could result in an attempt to “abolish” the Lords.
“If the Lords were seen to be frustrating the will of the people to an extent, it might well be the case that they are signing their own death warrant,” the minister said.
“You could be talking about the Lords disappearing in its current form. They’ve manage to avoid abolition now for quite a long time.”
Do you agree with the then prime minister, David Cameron, that Leave means Leave, and the will of the British people must be respected, not ignored, in that once in a lifetime referendum?
Do you agree with Boris Johnson that £350m extra a week must now be spent on the NHS?
Do you agree with the then prime minister, David Cameron, that Leave means Leave, and the will of the British people must be respected, not ignored, in that once in a lifetime referendum?
it's highly amusing watching all the people who told us there could be no second referendum now saying we need one.
A thought for those thinking that they can avoid brexit. When people goto the ballot box and win and it still makes no difference they learn the ballot box doesnt work. When the ballot box ceases to work they fall back on other options
Yet those same lower 50% of the population have had and will continue to have their living standards noticeably deteriorate because of uncontrolled immigration.
Or is that deemed an acceptable deterioration of living standards ?
.
Both sides lied, lied and lied again. How many Remain voters did it in fear of the End of the World, or "the end of western political civilisation" as Donald Tusk foretold? How many voted Remain because the Remain camp insisted that on Brexit we would have to leave the Single Market, something which is now, suddenly, debatable, especially for those same Remainers?
We don't know who believed what. All we know is that we voted LEAVE. So we LEAVE.
This is ridiculous. I cannot believe I am having arguments with apparently sane adults - on pb of all places - who are actively trying to ignore and subvert the democratic will of the British people, expressed in a once-in-a-lifetime referendum, which the government explicitly promised to obey, in a leaflet sent to all British homes.
This is CRAZY. Stop now.
To some people democracy is only a means to an end.
When democracy no longer leads to that end, or worse away from it, then it can be dispensed with.
The only purpose of democracy is to transfer power or radically change things without violence when there is high dissatisfaction with the status quo. But if it is abused by the majority and there is a sizable minority who remain dissatisfied, then it will not fulfil its purpose. That is the tyranny of the majority. Obviously the obverse is even more true.
We voted to radically change things, now people like you are trying to ignore it
No - not ignore it. That may provoke violence as you have indicated. But as a sizable minority we shouldn't be ignored either and told to shut up. We have a right to try to persuade the majority to change their mind without being threatened, or to implement the change in a way that doesn't ignore our concerns. But you are right - we shouldn't simply ignore a democratic vote.
Theresa May to dare Parliament to 'defy the will of the people' if she loses Article 50 court battle
It looks like no Brexit without constitutional reform.
One minister in Mrs May’s Government said that any attempt by peers to block Brexit it could result in an attempt to “abolish” the Lords.
“If the Lords were seen to be frustrating the will of the people to an extent, it might well be the case that they are signing their own death warrant,” the minister said.
“You could be talking about the Lords disappearing in its current form. They’ve manage to avoid abolition now for quite a long time.”
Interesting chart of Tory constituencies by majority and Remain vote share. There are some on the left of the line (ostensibly the danger zone) where I think it's unlikely the Tories would be in trouble, but also a few below the line where they look vulnerable.
Croydon Central, Brighton Kemptown, Twickenham, and Cheltenham are vulnerable. The others aren't.
I wouldn't be so sure. Tory Remainia is angry. 2017 could be the year of the Open fightback.
I don't think "Tory Remainia" amounts to very much.
Do you agree with the then prime minister, David Cameron, that Leave means Leave, and the will of the British people must be respected, not ignored, in that once in a lifetime referendum?
I watched the clip you posted and it filled me with disgust. All of his rhetoric was designed purely to scare people into voting Remain so that he could consolidate his position within his own party. It's Cameron who has done immeasurable damage to our democracy, not the people who are trying to protect the country from the consequences of a disastrous result.
So having whined incessantly for 40 years, and toppled at least one Government, having won a vote on a narrow margin after the most dishonest campaign in living memory, Brexiteers will only be happy if everyone else shuts up?
I believe the appropriate phrase is, Suck it up!!
The forces that gave Brexit and Trump momentum coalesced around grievance rather than vision. There was no agenda, no genuinely thought-out project that the winners could soberly set about executing, just resentment. And the grievance narrative must be continued even in success because that is pretty much the whole energising principle.
Yes the Leavers have no vision, no fucking ideas, and nothing left in the tank. We are being led into a brave new world by a coalition of the myopic, clueless and listless.
If the status quo was so great as you think, why did you lose?
It wasn't great. It was just far better than the alternative - a march into a reactionary void led by clowns.
Do you agree with the then prime minister, David Cameron, that Leave means Leave, and the will of the British people must be respected, not ignored, in that once in a lifetime referendum?
Do you agree with Boris Johnson that £350m extra a week must now be spent on the NHS?
Do you agree with the then prime minister, David Cameron, that Leave means Leave, and the will of the British people must be respected, not ignored, in that once in a lifetime referendum?
Do you agree with Boris Johnson that £350m extra a week must now be spent on the NHS?
Nah. But he wasn't prime minister speaking directly to the British people (and I'm really not sure he ever actually said that about the NHS, anyway)
Nah. The people demand the £350M they were promised.
Do you agree with the then prime minister, David Cameron, that Leave means Leave, and the will of the British people must be respected, not ignored, in that once in a lifetime referendum?
Do you agree with Boris Johnson that £350m extra a week must now be spent on the NHS?
Nah. But he wasn't prime minister speaking directly to the British people (and I'm really not sure he ever actually said that about the NHS, anyway)
Dave isn't PM now so same difference.
Do we all have owls? No. Because the Labour Party promised it but the Labour Party are not in power.
You don't half talk some nonsense sometimes. According to this article, for example, about 50,000 refugees started work in Germany between September 2015 and September 2016. OK, most are still unemployed, but it's simply false to say they aren't getting jobs. Some are, and many others are entering apprenticeships.
When I arrived in Germany in 1998 with no Germany qualifications (edit: and rather limited spoken German), it took me less than a month to find a job as a software developer.
Because software development is unskilled work? I'm sure I could get a job in banking tomorrow if I wanted.
That was a separate point, just to further illustrate that Germany is not the closed shop you think it is. Of course most of the 50,000 are doing less skilled work.
That's a 5% employment rate among refugees. Pretty poor.
But it's not the zero that you claimed without any basis whatsoever. It also doesn't include those who have set up their own businesses or are in apprenticeships or education. You gave the impression that they are all sitting around twiddling their thumbs. That is simply not the case.
Look at your stupid argument. 5% is a pathetic figure and you're defending it. Also, those who are in apprenticeships and other education are getting into the closed shop.
At the time of this article from July 2016, there was 131,000 unemployed refugees in Germany, corresponding to an unemployment rate of 44%. Not good, but nowhere near the 100% you seemed to be claiming.
Pretty low, I would have thought, since most won't have other sources of income. I would presume that the rest are still waiting to be allowed to work, in education or training, or are working unofficially. Given that Germany has close to full employment at the moment, cash in hand jobs are probably not hard to find.
I think the Richmond by-election sets the ideal reference point for the tipping point of politics to have been reached. These things creep up on political parties and a gradual deflation of Conservative support will now take place. The truth is May and her government cannot win in the current political environment. They either do Brexit and the economic shock waves for the bottom 50% income of the population will be dramatic and lead to massive swings in the polls. Alternatively they try and fudge a deal which the Tory diehards will find unacceptable. Either way the Tories lose support.
I still think that the best result given May has no mandate is to do nothing until after the next general election. Kick it into the long grass and the nutters who want Brexit on any terms can go to hell. Brexit proponents before June mislead the population and it is for their own good it is not enacted. I know this will enrage some who hold Brexit dearly but their will be bigger riots if the economy goes down the toilet through Brexit than their will be if Brexit is aborted.
What is so wonderful about the EU that you cannot contemplate any alternative?
There is nothing wonderful about the EU. The point is the alternative does not exist! Its all pipe dreams. When I was a conservative activist I used to have discourse with individuals who talked about joining Nafta instead. The type of people I have encountered recently believed the rhetoric about £350 million for the NHS and the bogus drivel about immigration. Now Brexiteers like Johnson, Davis and Fox talk about immigration continuing, this is not what the people I have met voted for. They cannot help it but they are stupid. It is not in their interests economically for Brexit to go ahead. I respect the people who want to leave because of sovereignty but I don't think that is an acceptable trade off for the negative impact it will have on the ignorant.
The alternative is not being part of the EU. We managed well enough for several hundred years.
Eh? That's no argument. Same could be said for washing machines and antibiotics.
Ha! We may well have to do without antibiotics in the not too distant future, the way antimicrobial resistance is going.
Do you agree with the then prime minister, David Cameron, that Leave means Leave, and the will of the British people must be respected, not ignored, in that once in a lifetime referendum?
it's highly amusing watching all the people who told us there could be no second referendum now saying we need one.
Especially when its those people - Major and Blair for example - who were so against having referenda on EU treaty changes when they were in charge.
Theresa May to dare Parliament to 'defy the will of the people' if she loses Article 50 court battle
It looks like no Brexit without constitutional reform.
One minister in Mrs May’s Government said that any attempt by peers to block Brexit it could result in an attempt to “abolish” the Lords.
“If the Lords were seen to be frustrating the will of the people to an extent, it might well be the case that they are signing their own death warrant,” the minister said.
“You could be talking about the Lords disappearing in its current form. They’ve manage to avoid abolition now for quite a long time.”
Good. Simply appoint 500 new Peers, and finish them off if needs be.
Do you agree with the then prime minister, David Cameron, that Leave means Leave, and the will of the British people must be respected, not ignored, in that once in a lifetime referendum?
I watched the clip you posted and it filled me with disgust. All of his rhetoric was designed purely to scare people into voting Remain so that he could consolidate his position within his own party. It's Cameron who has done immeasurable damage to our democracy, not the people who are trying to protect the country from the consequences of a disastrous result.
Whilst I think there are some people who are out to subvert democracy, I agree with you about Cameron. If leaving is such a disastrous proposition, Cameron should never have promised a referendum in the first place.
Do you agree with the then prime minister, David Cameron, that Leave means Leave, and the will of the British people must be respected, not ignored, in that once in a lifetime referendum?
it's highly amusing watching all the people who told us there could be no second referendum now saying we need one.
People expressing their view in a democracy is often highly amusing.
I am proud I grew up in a country known as a founding mother of democracy. I wonder where we lost our way when people can use sophistry like parliament is sovereign and it was only advice. All power is lent by the people of this country to our parliament...lent not given. You ask us what we want and then say you will ignore it then we can easily revoke the power we lent you
In an open immigration system it's not easy to say. On balance probably, yes. At least for unskilled jobs. Closing up shop by requiring "qualifications" for any job is the only way to protect the domestic labour force.
An English hairdresser is no less skilled than a Swiss hairdresser but over here their wages are lower because of immigration driving them down. In Switzerland without the right hairdressing certificate finding a job is impossible so low skilled workers don't go, ensuring domestic workers are paid a decent wage.
Internally flexible, closed externally. This is also a partial explanation as to why German and Swiss workers have been less affected by globalisation as well.
I have friends who have stepped through large numbers of hoops to get Swiss ski instructor qualifications (and these are less onerous than in France), and you are surely right that we do not regulate service jobs anything like as much as some other countries.
But.
We also Fail to train up a large portion of our workforce. Almost nobody leaves the Swiss or German education systems without qualifications for a job. It's designed not to happen. And then the benefits systems are designed to further discourage people from not working.
We need to address both ends of the problem.
yup
And that requires investment, something our stack it high, sell it cheap approach to Government isn't keen on.
Interesting chart of Tory constituencies by majority and Remain vote share. There are some on the left of the line (ostensibly the danger zone) where I think it's unlikely the Tories would be in trouble, but also a few below the line where they look vulnerable.
Croydon Central, Brighton Kemptown, Twickenham, and Cheltenham are vulnerable. The others aren't.
Are you still a kipper Sean or have you teleported back to the mother ship now?
It beggars belief that any sane PB-er could watch that speech by David Cameron, and then think it is a good idea to try and ignore, scupper or subvert the referendum Leave vote.
Doing that would be the essence of anti-democracy. It would be an enormous FUCK YOU to the people. It would be extremely dangerous. It would be immoral, bizarre, and lunatic.
And the best positive vision.... Brexit means Brexit. Or faith that God will save us. Pathetic.
Do you agree with the then prime minister, David Cameron, that Leave means Leave, and the will of the British people must be respected, not ignored, in that once in a lifetime referendum?
Do you agree with Boris Johnson that £350m extra a week must now be spent on the NHS?
Nah. But he wasn't prime minister speaking directly to the British people (and I'm really not sure he ever actually said that about the NHS, anyway)
Dave isn't PM now so same difference.
Do we all have owls? No. Because the Labour Party promised it but the Labour Party are not in power.
Cameron did promise to immediately invoke A50 and also to remain as PM.
So we can all agree that he was a liar (even if there wasn't enough previous examples of his lies).
It beggars belief that any sane PB-er could watch that speech by David Cameron, and then think it is a good idea to try and ignore, scupper or subvert the referendum Leave vote.
Doing that would be the essence of anti-democracy. It would be an enormous FUCK YOU to the people. It would be extremely dangerous. It would be immoral, bizarre, and lunatic.
No. One. Is. Doing. That.
(On the list I know but somehow we must try to get through to DJW Sean.)
Do you agree with the then prime minister, David Cameron, that Leave means Leave, and the will of the British people must be respected, not ignored, in that once in a lifetime referendum?
it's highly amusing watching all the people who told us there could be no second referendum now saying we need one.
People expressing their view in a democracy is often highly amusing.
Oh yes, Brexit has given us some real keepers.
Tow hugely mendacious campaigns backed up by opponents pretending the other side were serious.
So having whined incessantly for 40 years, and toppled at least one Government, having won a vote on a narrow margin after the most dishonest campaign in living memory, Brexiteers will only be happy if everyone else shuts up?
I believe the appropriate phrase is, Suck it up!!
The forces that gave Brexit and Trump momentum coalesced around grievance rather than vision. There was no agenda, no genuinely thought-out project that the winners could soberly set about executing, just resentment. And the grievance narrative must be continued even in success because that is pretty much the whole energising principle.
Yes the Leavers have no vision, no fucking ideas, and nothing left in the tank. We are being led into a brave new world by a coalition of the myopic, clueless and listless.
If the status quo was so great as you think, why did you lose?
It wasn't great. It was just far better than the alternative - a march into a reactionary void led by clowns.
Or perhaps it was so poor that people didn't care.
The point is, if you lose, you need to consider what you did wrong, not what the voters dd wrong.
Do you agree with the then prime minister, David Cameron, that Leave means Leave, and the will of the British people must be respected, not ignored, in that once in a lifetime referendum?
Do you agree with Boris Johnson that £350m extra a week must now be spent on the NHS?
Nah. But he wasn't prime minister speaking directly to the British people (and I'm really not sure he ever actually said that about the NHS, anyway)
Dave isn't PM now so same difference.
Do we all have owls? No. Because the Labour Party promised it but the Labour Party are not in power.
Cameron did promise to immediately invoke A50 and also to remain as PM.
So we can all agree that he was a liar (even if there wasn't enough previous examples of his lies).
Nah. The situation changed it was right that he went and he would have done the country a disservice if he had triggered A50 before he left.
It beggars belief that any sane PB-er could watch that speech by David Cameron, and then think it is a good idea to try and ignore, scupper or subvert the referendum Leave vote.
Doing that would be the essence of anti-democracy. It would be an enormous FUCK YOU to the people. It would be extremely dangerous. It would be immoral, bizarre, and lunatic.
I suspect saying "an enormous FUCK YOU to the people" would be viewed as a feature not a bug by some people in government.
It is of course what the EU has done several times previously in other countries.
Do you agree with the then prime minister, David Cameron, that Leave means Leave, and the will of the British people must be respected, not ignored, in that once in a lifetime referendum?
Do you agree with Boris Johnson that £350m extra a week must now be spent on the NHS?
No but then I never did
only gullible remainers swallowed that one
Er no. A whole bunch of Red BNP nativists were promised NHS riches by so-called lefties like Sandy Rentool, who knowingly peddled those mendacious lies then bragged about it on here.
A thought for those thinking that they can avoid brexit. When people goto the ballot box and win and it still makes no difference they learn the ballot box doesnt work. When the ballot box ceases to work they fall back on other options
Do you really want to tell 17 million people the ballot box no longer works for them? While most will do little more than grumble there will be enough in there willing to go further to exert their will, even if its only 0.1 percent thats still 17000 people.
So as many as a good home turnout at Pompey?
If, in the end, the people cannot enforce their decision via democratic means, because their government ignores them or suppresses them, then they will - justifiably - turn to non-democratic methods, and that ultimately means violence.
Democracy is always tinged with the distant threat of insurrection - democracy only exists because people have, in the past, been prepared to shed blood for their freedom.
"When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. When governments fear the people, there is liberty" - Thomas Jefferson
Thomas Jefferson, slaveowner.
If the government ignores 'the people', it will get replaced at the next election. An outcome most of us might prefer to blood on the streets, but of course YMMV...
Do you agree with the then prime minister, David Cameron, that Leave means Leave, and the will of the British people must be respected, not ignored, in that once in a lifetime referendum?
Do you agree with Boris Johnson that £350m extra a week must now be spent on the NHS?
Nah. But he wasn't prime minister speaking directly to the British people (and I'm really not sure he ever actually said that about the NHS, anyway)
Dave isn't PM now so same difference.
Do we all have owls? No. Because the Labour Party promised it but the Labour Party are not in power.
Cameron did promise to immediately invoke A50 and also to remain as PM.
So we can all agree that he was a liar (even if there wasn't enough previous examples of his lies).
Nah. The situation changed it was right that he went and he would have done the country a disservice if he had triggered A50 then.
Why didn't TMay trigger as soon as she became PM?
she inherited a pile of someone elses crap and needed time to think about what to do next
Interesting chart of Tory constituencies by majority and Remain vote share. There are some on the left of the line (ostensibly the danger zone) where I think it's unlikely the Tories would be in trouble, but also a few below the line where they look vulnerable.
Croydon Central, Brighton Kemptown, Twickenham, and Cheltenham are vulnerable. The others aren't.
I wouldn't be so sure. Tory Remainia is angry. 2017 could be the year of the Open fightback.
I don't think "Tory Remainia" amounts to very much.
A thought for those thinking that they can avoid brexit. When people goto the ballot box and win and it still makes no difference they learn the ballot box doesnt work. When the ballot box ceases to work they fall back on other options
Yet those same lower 50% of the population have had and will continue to have their living standards noticeably deteriorate because of uncontrolled immigration.
Or is that deemed an acceptable deterioration of living standards ?
.
Both s.
This is CRAZY. Stop now.
To some people democracy is only a means to an end.
When democracy no longer leads to that end, or worse away from it, then it can be dispensed with.
The only purpose of democracy is to transfer power or radically change things without violence when there is high dissatisfaction with the status quo. But if it is abused by the majority and there is a sizable minority who remain dissatisfied, then it will not fulfil its purpose. That is the tyranny of the majority. Obviously the obverse is even more true.
We voted to radically change things, now people like you are trying to ignore it
No - not ignore it. That may provoke violence as you have indicated. But as a sizable minority we shouldn't be ignored either and told to shut up. We have a right to try to persuade the majority to change their mind without being threatened, or to implement the change in a way that doesn't ignore our concerns. But you are right - we shouldn't simply ignore a democratic vote.
You do have that right, but you need to go about it democratically. Which means do what the eurosceptics did: create a party, exert parliamentary pressure, win an election promising a new vote, then win that vote. And then we can re-enter the EU.
That's how the sceptics won. It took them 40 years. Good luck (and I mean that sincerely to all DEMOCRATIC Remainers).
Is it undemocratic to think that there should be a general election before we take the next step? Theresa May's lack of legitimacy must be a concern given that she is making epoch defining decisions.
Do you agree with the then prime minister, David Cameron, that Leave means Leave, and the will of the British people must be respected, not ignored, in that once in a lifetime referendum?
Do you agree with Boris Johnson that £350m extra a week must now be spent on the NHS?
Nah. But he wasn't prime minister speaking directly to the British people (and I'm really not sure he ever actually said that about the NHS, anyway)
Dave isn't PM now so same difference.
Do we all have owls? No. Because the Labour Party promised it but the Labour Party are not in power.
Cameron did promise to immediately invoke A50 and also to remain as PM.
So we can all agree that he was a liar (even if there wasn't enough previous examples of his lies).
Nah. The situation changed it was right that he went and he would have done the country a disservice if he had triggered A50 then.
Why didn't TMay trigger as soon as she became PM?
she inherited a pile of someone elses crap and needed time to think about what to do next
She inherited a government charged with leaving the EU.
Do you agree with the then prime minister, David Cameron, that Leave means Leave, and the will of the British people must be respected, not ignored, in that once in a lifetime referendum?
Do you agree with Boris Johnson that £350m extra a week must now be spent on the NHS?
Nah. But he wasn't prime minister speaking directly to the British people (and I'm really not sure he ever actually said that about the NHS, anyway)
He preferred to stand on a platform behind which the pledge was emblazoned in a 400pt font.
Do you agree with the then prime minister, David Cameron, that Leave means Leave, and the will of the British people must be respected, not ignored, in that once in a lifetime referendum?
Do you agree with Boris Johnson that £350m extra a week must now be spent on the NHS?
No but then I never did
only gullible remainers swallowed that one
Er no. A whole bunch of Red BNP nativists were promised NHS riches by so-called lefties like Sandy Rentool, who knowingly peddled those mendacious lies then bragged about it on here.
only in your head,
the only people who drone on about the 350 million are remainers
Ive not seen a leaver moan about it, but it fits your narrative to imagine what people you clearly dont understand allegedly think
Do you agree with the then prime minister, David Cameron, that Leave means Leave, and the will of the British people must be respected, not ignored, in that once in a lifetime referendum?
Do you agree with Boris Johnson that £350m extra a week must now be spent on the NHS?
Nah. But he wasn't prime minister speaking directly to the British people (and I'm really not sure he ever actually said that about the NHS, anyway)
Dave isn't PM now so same difference.
Do we all have owls? No. Because the Labour Party promised it but the Labour Party are not in power.
Cameron did promise to immediately invoke A50 and also to remain as PM.
So we can all agree that he was a liar (even if there wasn't enough previous examples of his lies).
Nah. The situation changed it was right that he went and he would have done the country a disservice if he had triggered A50 then.
Why didn't TMay trigger as soon as she became PM?
Cameron's a liar.
I don't know why you can't admit it - Cameron is a politician after all and so it is generally assumed to be the case.
But with Cameron we no longer need to assume, we know that he is a liar. Though there were plenty of other lies previously.
Was the Lib Dems winning in Richmond really indicative of the country starting to fight back against evil Brexit? Sure, it's a great win for Olney, but if a pro EU party couldn't win there, at this time, against Zac Bloody Goldsmith, when could it?
Do you agree with the then prime minister, David Cameron, that Leave means Leave, and the will of the British people must be respected, not ignored, in that once in a lifetime referendum?
Do you agree with Boris Johnson that £350m extra a week must now be spent on the NHS?
Nah. But he wasn't prime minister speaking directly to the British people (and I'm really not sure he ever actually said that about the NHS, anyway)
Dave isn't PM now so same difference.
Do we all have owls? No. Because the Labour Party promised it but the Labour Party are not in power.
Cameron did promise to immediately invoke A50 and also to remain as PM.
So we can all agree that he was a liar (even if there wasn't enough previous examples of his lies).
Nah. The situation changed it was right that he went and he would have done the country a disservice if he had triggered A50 then.
Why didn't TMay trigger as soon as she became PM?
Cameron's a liar.
I don't know why you can't admit it - Cameron is a politician after all and so it is generally assumed to be the case.
But with Cameron we no longer need to assume, we know that he is a liar. Though there were plenty of other lies previously.
Do you agree with the then prime minister, David Cameron, that Leave means Leave, and the will of the British people must be respected, not ignored, in that once in a lifetime referendum?
Do you agree with Boris Johnson that £350m extra a week must now be spent on the NHS?
Nah. But he wasn't prime minister speaking directly to the British people (and I'm really not sure he ever actually said that about the NHS, anyway)
Dave isn't PM now so same difference.
Do we all have owls? No. Because the Labour Party promised it but the Labour Party are not in power.
Cameron did promise to immediately invoke A50 and also to remain as PM.
So we can all agree that he was a liar (even if there wasn't enough previous examples of his lies).
Nah. The situation changed it was right that he went and he would have done the country a disservice if he had triggered A50 then.
Why didn't TMay trigger as soon as she became PM?
she inherited a pile of someone elses crap and needed time to think about what to do next
She inherited a government charged with leaving the EU.
from a bloke who said he would see the job through and then didnt
Do you agree with the then prime minister, David Cameron, that Leave means Leave, and the will of the British people must be respected, not ignored, in that once in a lifetime referendum?
Do you agree with Boris Johnson that £350m extra a week must now be spent on the NHS?
Nah. But he wasn't prime minister speaking directly to the British people (and I'm really not sure he ever actually said that about the NHS, anyway)
Dave isn't PM now so same difference.
Do we all have owls? No. Because the Labour Party promised it but the Labour Party are not in power.
Cameron did promise to immediately invoke A50 and also to remain as PM.
So we can all agree that he was a liar (even if there wasn't enough previous examples of his lies).
Nah. The situation changed it was right that he went and he would have done the country a disservice if he had triggered A50 then.
Why didn't TMay trigger as soon as she became PM?
she inherited a pile of someone elses crap and needed time to think about what to do next
She inherited a government charged with leaving the EU.
from a bloke who said he would see the job through and then didnt
Do you agree with the then prime minister, David Cameron, that Leave means Leave, and the will of the British people must be respected, not ignored, in that once in a lifetime referendum?
Do you agree with Boris Johnson that £350m extra a week must now be spent on the NHS?
Nah. But he wasn't prime minister speaking directly to the British people (and I'm really not sure he ever actually said that about the NHS, anyway)
He preferred to stand on a platform behind which the pledge was emblazoned in a 400pt font.
so what ? it was a mendacious campaign. Has anyone hanged Osborne yet for his outright economic lies ?
When my mum and dad left the RAF after the war, age 24, they could get a council house and start a family. My mother didn't need to work. My mother has a carer, age 25, also setting up home. Single room in a shared house - all the rooms are bedrooms - shared bathroom. Will have to work so unlikely to be able to afford kids. 70 years of progress.
Do you agree with the then prime minister, David Cameron, that Leave means Leave, and the will of the British people must be respected, not ignored, in that once in a lifetime referendum?
Do you agree with Boris Johnson that £350m extra a week must now be spent on the NHS?
Nah. But he wasn't prime minister speaking directly to the British people (and I'm really not sure he ever actually said that about the NHS, anyway)
Dave isn't PM now so same difference.
Do we all have owls? No. Because the Labour Party promised it but the Labour Party are not in power.
Cameron did promise to immediately invoke A50 and also to remain as PM.
So we can all agree that he was a liar (even if there wasn't enough previous examples of his lies).
Nah. The situation changed it was right that he went and he would have done the country a disservice if he had triggered A50 then.
Why didn't TMay trigger as soon as she became PM?
she inherited a pile of someone elses crap and needed time to think about what to do next
She inherited a government charged with leaving the EU.
from a bloke who said he would see the job through and then didnt
Irrelevant.
to you perhaps. but if you dump a problem on someone they have the right to sort it out at their own pace.
Interesting chart of Tory constituencies by majority and Remain vote share. There are some on the left of the line (ostensibly the danger zone) where I think it's unlikely the Tories would be in trouble, but also a few below the line where they look vulnerable.
Croydon Central, Brighton Kemptown, Twickenham, and Cheltenham are vulnerable. The others aren't.
I wouldn't be so sure. Tory Remainia is angry. 2017 could be the year of the Open fightback.
I don't think "Tory Remainia" amounts to very much.
We'll see.
You do sound somewhat reminiscent of the results program itself.
With Dimbleby and co endlessly talking about London and Manchester while Leave was racking up huge wins in places they had never been to.
The Conservatives might well lose some votes in Brighton and Bath on the EU but then they might gain them in Barrow and Bridgend.
When my mum and dad left the RAF after the war, age 24, they could get a council house and start a family. My mother didn't need to work. My mother has a carer, age 25, also setting up home. Single room in a shared house - all the rooms are bedrooms - shared bathroom. Will have to work so unlikely to be able to afford kids. 70 years of progress.
That's true across the developed world. In the 1960s, it was almost unheard of married women in the US, the UK, the Netherlands, Japan, Canada or Australia to work.
Now, two working parent families are the norms in all of those countries. Japan was the last, in 2009, two working parent families became more common than one working parent families for the first time.
But then again we all have iPhones, big screen TVs, take Ubers, go on foreign holidays and the like.
Was the Lib Dems winning in Richmond really indicative of the country starting to fight back against evil Brexit? Sure, it's a great win for Olney, but if a pro EU party couldn't win there, at this time, against Zac Bloody Goldsmith, when could it?
Do you agree with the then prime minister, David Cameron, that Leave means Leave, and the will of the British people must be respected, not ignored, in that once in a lifetime referendum?
Do you agree with Boris Johnson that £350m extra a week must now be spent on the NHS?
Nah. But he wasn't prime minister speaking directly to the British people (and I'm really not sure he ever actually said that about the NHS, anyway)
Dave isn't PM now so same difference.
Do we all have owls? No. Because the Labour Party promised it but the Labour Party are not in power.
Cameron did promise to immediately invoke A50 and also to remain as PM.
So we can all agree that he was a liar (even if there wasn't enough previous examples of his lies).
Nah. The situation changed it was right that he went and he would have done the country a disservice if he had triggered A50 then.
Why didn't TMay trigger as soon as she became PM?
Cameron's a liar.
I don't know why you can't admit it - Cameron is a politician after all and so it is generally assumed to be the case.
But with Cameron we no longer need to assume, we know that he is a liar. Though there were plenty of other lies previously.
Was the Lib Dems winning in Richmond really indicative of the country starting to fight back against evil Brexit? Sure, it's a great win for Olney, but if a pro EU party couldn't win there, at this time, against Zac Bloody Goldsmith, when could it?
It was indicative of Richmond upon Thames fighting back.
Was the Lib Dems winning in Richmond really indicative of the country starting to fight back against evil Brexit? Sure, it's a great win for Olney, but if a pro EU party couldn't win there, at this time, against Zac Bloody Goldsmith, when could it?
Was the Lib Dems winning in Richmond really indicative of the country starting to fight back against evil Brexit? Sure, it's a great win for Olney, but if a pro EU party couldn't win there, at this time, against Zac Bloody Goldsmith, when could it?
It was indicative of Richmond upon Thames fighting back.
I'm not sure how this will work, and I'm not sure I agree with Grayling's logic, but apparently he chose the DfT and he is genuinely interested in railways.
When my mum and dad left the RAF after the war, age 24, they could get a council house and start a family. My mother didn't need to work. My mother has a carer, age 25, also setting up home. Single room in a shared house - all the rooms are bedrooms - shared bathroom. Will have to work so unlikely to be able to afford kids. 70 years of progress.
That's true across the developed world. In the 1960s, it was almost unheard of married women in the US, the UK, the Netherlands, Japan, Canada or Australia to work.
Now, two working parent families are the norms in all of those countries. Japan was the last, in 2009, two working parent families became more common than one working parent families for the first time.
But then again we all have iPhones, big screen TVs, take Ubers, go on foreign holidays and the like.
How many of those (final paragraph) things could we still have if the population of the UK was 10 or 20 million lower ?
It just seems that an ever increasing population inevitably leads to pressure on housing, transport and the environment.
Jobabob - what was your vision of the future? Serious question.
Open to globalisation. More freedom of movement coupled with better employee protections and a push for stakeholder economies. Better targeted, modernised education fit for a digitised globalised world. Pro-market, pro-business, reduction in red tape and sales taxes. Progressive personal taxation and a drive towards a multilateral corporate taxation agreement. Secularism actively promoted. Religion consigned to the private sphere. Monarchies, God-given hierarchies, and born-in privilege questioned. Celebration of talent, the family, and hard work. Healthcare properly funded, and free at the point of need. Let private lives be private, and the preserve of consenting adults. Less government in social matters. More government in infrastructure. Nationalised railways. The enforced retirement of Jeremy Corbyn.
Do you agree with the then prime minister, David Cameron, that Leave means Leave, and the will of the British people must be respected, not ignored, in that once in a lifetime referendum?
Do you agree with Boris Johnson that £350m extra a week must now be spent on the NHS?
No but then I never did
only gullible remainers swallowed that one
Er no. A whole bunch of Red BNP nativists were promised NHS riches by so-called lefties like Sandy Rentool, who knowingly peddled those mendacious lies then bragged about it on here.
only in your head,
the only people who drone on about the 350 million are remainers
Ive not seen a leaver moan about it, but it fits your narrative to imagine what people you clearly dont understand allegedly think
The obsession with the £350m is a consequence of the economy not having collapsed as predicted.
When my mum and dad left the RAF after the war, age 24, they could get a council house and start a family. My mother didn't need to work. My mother has a carer, age 25, also setting up home. Single room in a shared house - all the rooms are bedrooms - shared bathroom. Will have to work so unlikely to be able to afford kids. 70 years of progress.
That's true across the developed world. In the 1960s, it was almost unheard of married women in the US, the UK, the Netherlands, Japan, Canada or Australia to work.
Now, two working parent families are the norms in all of those countries. Japan was the last, in 2009, two working parent families became more common than one working parent families for the first time.
But then again we all have iPhones, big screen TVs, take Ubers, go on foreign holidays and the like.
This is required viewing on this subject. Elizabeth Warren from her time at Harvard on the two-income trap. Her lecture starts after about 5 minutes.
Do you agree with the then prime minister, David Cameron, that Leave means Leave, and the will of the British people must be respected, not ignored, in that once in a lifetime referendum?
Do you agree with Boris Johnson that £350m extra a week must now be spent on the NHS?
Nah. But he wasn't prime minister speaking directly to the British people (and I'm really not sure he ever actually said that about the NHS, anyway)
Dave isn't PM now so same difference.
Do we all have owls? No. Because the Labour Party promised it but the Labour Party are not in power.
Cameron did promise to immediately invoke A50 and also to remain as PM.
So we can all agree that he was a liar (even if there wasn't enough previous examples of his lies).
Nah. The situation changed it was right that he went and he would have done the country a disservice if he had triggered A50 before he left.
Why didn't TMay trigger as soon as she became PM?
The situation had not changed at all. He had promised that whatever the result he would stay on and see it through. He lied. Just like he did numerous times before. He just proved what an arrogant scumbag he was.
You are right that May should have triggered Article 50 straight away. But I do wonder if that would not have left us in even more of a mess had the court challenge then been successful and she be told she had not had the authority to do what she had done.
I'm not sure how this will work, and I'm not sure I agree with Grayling's logic, but apparently he chose the DfT and he is genuinely interested in railways.
[excitedly] Did the final bits of Merseyrail that I needed today: Hunts Cross and Kirkby.
I'm not sure how this will work, and I'm not sure I agree with Grayling's logic, but apparently he chose the DfT and he is genuinely interested in railways.
Oh God, another car crash in the making. How does this work when different operators, freight and passenger, share the same tracks. Vertical integration will simply create another vast internal market.
AIUI it is both a minimum and maximum as withdrawal begins at 17h.
They still profit, just not £ for £.
All means tested systems will have some disincentives but the alternative is to move entirely to universal or contributory benefits.
Some people cannot contribute due to family/health reasons, and universal systems end up with billionaires getting free TV licences and handouts for their fuel bills.
The effective tax rate as working tax credits get removed is north of 50% for almost everyone, and can get get over 100% when you include housing benefit.
Do you agree with the then prime minister, David Cameron, that Leave means Leave, and the will of the British people must be respected, not ignored, in that once in a lifetime referendum?
Do you agree with Boris Johnson that £350m extra a week must now be spent on the NHS?
No but then I never did
only gullible remainers swallowed that one
Er no. A whole bunch of Red BNP nativists were promised NHS riches by so-called lefties like Sandy Rentool, who knowingly peddled those mendacious lies then bragged about it on here.
only in your head,
the only people who drone on about the 350 million are remainers
Ive not seen a leaver moan about it, but it fits your narrative to imagine what people you clearly dont understand allegedly think
I understand what Sandy Rentool thinks because he openly boasted about it on here. He thinks knowingly pushing fallacious propaganda about the health service through people's doors is something to be proud of.
Do you agree with the then prime minister, David Cameron, that Leave means Leave, and the will of the British people must be respected, not ignored, in that once in a lifetime referendum?
Do you agree with Boris Johnson that £350m extra a week must now be spent on the NHS?
No but then I never did
only gullible remainers swallowed that one
Er no. A whole bunch of Red BNP nativists were promised NHS riches by so-called lefties like Sandy Rentool, who knowingly peddled those mendacious lies then bragged about it on here.
only in your head,
the only people who drone on about the 350 million are remainers
Ive not seen a leaver moan about it, but it fits your narrative to imagine what people you clearly dont understand allegedly think
I understand what Sandy Rentool thinks because he openly boasted about it on here. He thinks knowingly pushing fallacious propaganda about the health service through people's doors is something to be proud of.
The Sunil on Sunday only ever used the NET £8.5 bn figure in its BE LEAVE campaign
Was the Lib Dems winning in Richmond really indicative of the country starting to fight back against evil Brexit? Sure, it's a great win for Olney, but if a pro EU party couldn't win there, at this time, against Zac Bloody Goldsmith, when could it?
Do you agree with the then prime minister, David Cameron, that Leave means Leave, and the will of the British people must be respected, not ignored, in that once in a lifetime referendum?
Do you agree with Boris Johnson that £350m extra a week must now be spent on the NHS?
No but then I never did
only gullible remainers swallowed that one
Er no. A whole bunch of Red BNP nativists were promised NHS riches by so-called lefties like Sandy Rentool, who knowingly peddled those mendacious lies then bragged about it on here.
only in your head,
the only people who drone on about the 350 million are remainers
Ive not seen a leaver moan about it, but it fits your narrative to imagine what people you clearly dont understand allegedly think
I understand what Sandy Rentool thinks because he openly boasted about it on here. He thinks knowingly pushing fallacious propaganda about the health service through people's doors is something to be proud of.
Was the Lib Dems winning in Richmond really indicative of the country starting to fight back against evil Brexit? Sure, it's a great win for Olney, but if a pro EU party couldn't win there, at this time, against Zac Bloody Goldsmith, when could it?
Zac Goldsmith had a majority of 23,000.
The Liberals had a national poll score of 8%.
And the constituency had voted 75% Remain. As TwistedFireStopper said, if they couldn't win there they were unlikely to win anywhere
Was the Lib Dems winning in Richmond really indicative of the country starting to fight back against evil Brexit? Sure, it's a great win for Olney, but if a pro EU party couldn't win there, at this time, against Zac Bloody Goldsmith, when could it?
Zac Goldsmith had a majority of 23,000.
The Liberals had a national poll score of 8%.
So? Let's see how the Lib Dems fare in constituencies that ain't as pro EU as Richmond. You only see what you want to see. Like everyone else on here.
Comments
https://twitter.com/JamesKanag/status/804648882282123264
Its important that everyone can win.
And equally important that everyone can lose.
It's like watching Partridge.
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/schwierige-stellensuche-131-000-arbeitslose-fluechtlinge-14343485.html
https://twitter.com/MichaelPDeacon/status/747000584226607104/photo/1
When are you marching?
All means tested systems will have some disincentives but the alternative is to move entirely to universal or contributory benefits.
Some people cannot contribute due to family/health reasons, and universal systems end up with billionaires getting free TV licences and handouts for their fuel bills.
they didnt have one
One minister in Mrs May’s Government said that any attempt by peers to block Brexit it could result in an attempt to “abolish” the Lords.
“If the Lords were seen to be frustrating the will of the people to an extent, it might well be the case that they are signing their own death warrant,” the minister said.
“You could be talking about the Lords disappearing in its current form. They’ve manage to avoid abolition now for quite a long time.”
cull the fkers
only gullible remainers swallowed that one
https://twitter.com/MichaelPDeacon/status/747000584226607104/photo/1
Do we all have owls? No. Because the Labour Party promised it but the Labour Party are not in power.
So we can all agree that he was a liar (even if there wasn't enough previous examples of his lies).
(On the list I know but somehow we must try to get through to DJW Sean.)
Tow hugely mendacious campaigns backed up by opponents pretending the other side were serious.
The point is, if you lose, you need to consider what you did wrong, not what the voters dd wrong.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/hannahjewell/blue-steel?utm_term=.xvXmqej87q#.te6g2LpPO2
But SeanT thinks this never happened, so that's OK then...
Why didn't TMay trigger as soon as she became PM?
It is of course what the EU has done several times previously in other countries.
If the government ignores 'the people', it will get replaced at the next election.
An outcome most of us might prefer to blood on the streets, but of course YMMV...
This is Christian Wolmar, who I met recently. I am hiding to the right of him.
the only people who drone on about the 350 million are remainers
Ive not seen a leaver moan about it, but it fits your narrative to imagine what people you clearly dont understand allegedly think
I don't know why you can't admit it - Cameron is a politician after all and so it is generally assumed to be the case.
But with Cameron we no longer need to assume, we know that he is a liar. Though there were plenty of other lies previously.
Me teaching Zac how to hold a pint glass. It was a long night
Brexit means Brexit or faith in God is not enough to build confidence.
says the guy from project fear
With Dimbleby and co endlessly talking about London and Manchester while Leave was racking up huge wins in places they had never been to.
The Conservatives might well lose some votes in Brighton and Bath on the EU but then they might gain them in Barrow and Bridgend.
Now, two working parent families are the norms in all of those countries. Japan was the last, in 2009, two working parent families became more common than one working parent families for the first time.
But then again we all have iPhones, big screen TVs, take Ubers, go on foreign holidays and the like.
Now if you think invoking A50 immediately would have done the country a disservice then why did Cameron say that he would do that ?
http://tinyurl.com/h2dbqgz
I'm not sure how this will work, and I'm not sure I agree with Grayling's logic, but apparently he chose the DfT and he is genuinely interested in railways.
It just seems that an ever increasing population inevitably leads to pressure on housing, transport and the environment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akVL7QY0S8A
You are right that May should have triggered Article 50 straight away. But I do wonder if that would not have left us in even more of a mess had the court challenge then been successful and she be told she had not had the authority to do what she had done.
Rod Crosby would be so proud
The Liberals had a national poll score of 8%.