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@tnewtondunn: Now @JamesMcGrory savaged for spinning Leavers. Replies: "I challenge anyone to represent them accurately, such a range of opinions" #bbcsp

TCPoliticalBetting said:

williamglenn said:

kle4 said:

TCPoliticalBetting said:

Barnesian said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Barnesian, I understand it, but it doesn't fit with how things work. We'll only have a deal once Article 50 is triggered and negotiations complete. After that, we leave on deal terms or on WTO terms, and any rejection of the deal would be binding only on the UK, not the EU. Not only that, such an approach (supposing we could revoke Article 50 and stay) would encourage the EU to give us actively hostile terms to harm us as much as possible and make it easier for the second referendum to be a victory for them...

..and for the 16.1 million of us who want to remain in the EU.
But I do take your point.

You lost. This is time to accept the result and move on. The longer you are stuck whinging about it the more unhealthy it is for you. They left you, get over it.

I don't know, Leavers never got over it and never stopped whinging and in the end the time came and they just convinced us.

And remember the most potent argument they used, regardless of its veracity: they lied to us!
Winning the referendum was the worst thing that could ever have happened to the eurosceptics. It's only a question of time now before their whole case against the EU becomes forever discredited in the minds of the public.

straws clutching at.

I'm sure some American loyalists were saying the same thing in the 1780s and likewise Jacobites in the 1690s.

The problem the EUNationalists have is that after having left the EU there will not be the option to re-join on the old terms. Re-joining will require Euro membership and a complete acceptance of EverCloserUnion.

Now EverCloserUnion is what the EUNationalists want but its very much a minority view.

Charles said:

Blue_rog said:

Serious question

If the remainers do hold a majority position in the Commons, could they collude and add an amendment to any substantive legislation that would overturn the result of the referendum if passed?

They can't "overturn" the result of the referendum because it is only advisory, but they can frustrate it.

e.g. an amendment that Article 50 can only be served following a unanimous vote of the house of commons.

Technical note on this. The Speaker of the Commons will decide whether an amendment is valid or not (yes, it's suddenly Be Nice to Bercow Month). The basic criteria are that it is not a wrecking amendment and that it has significant support. In my view (I can't speak for Bercow, obviously), a "unanimous vote only" amendment would be wrecking, while an amendment requiring that Britain's negotiating demands be put to the Commons in amendable form would not be a wrecking amendment.

another_richard said:

TCPoliticalBetting said:

williamglenn said:

kle4 said:

TCPoliticalBetting said:

Barnesian said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Barnesian, I understand it, but it doesn't fit with how things work. We'll only have a deal once Article 50 is triggered and negotiations complete. After that, we leave on deal terms or on WTO terms, and any rejection of the deal would be binding only on the UK, not the EU. Not only that, such an approach (supposing we could revoke Article 50 and stay) would encourage the EU to give us actively hostile terms to harm us as much as possible and make it easier for the second referendum to be a victory for them...

..and for the 16.1 million of us who want to remain in the EU.
But I do take your point.

You lost. This is time to accept the result and move on. The longer you are stuck whinging about it the more unhealthy it is for you. They left you, get over it.

I don't know, Leavers never got over it and never stopped whinging and in the end the time came and they just convinced us.

And remember the most potent argument they used, regardless of its veracity: they lied to us!
Winning the referendum was the worst thing that could ever have happened to the eurosceptics. It's only a question of time now before their whole case against the EU becomes forever discredited in the minds of the public.

straws clutching at.

I'm sure some American loyalists were saying the same thing in the 1780s and likewise Jacobites in the 1690s.
The problem the EUNationalists have is that after having left the EU there will not be the option to re-join on the old terms. Re-joining will require Euro membership and a complete acceptance of EverCloserUnion.
Now EverCloserUnion is what the EUNationalists want but its very much a minority view.

Quite true. Over looking the direction that the EU was going in such as the "EU army", "common taxation" etc were the inconvenient truths that Remainers very rarely acknowledged.

Malmesbury said:

If the EU had mandated a national referendum in each country, for each treaty change, then Brexit would not have happened.

The answer to complaints of no say is to give everyone a say. All the time. Given me Switzerland over Singapore....

If the answer is "we are afraid that we might get the wrong answer" - you have already lost.

If they did that there would never be a treaty change, regardless of its merits. Referendums have a little bit of randomness and chaos in them where people vote to show they're narked off with their national governments or whatever. You could have a proposal for motherhood and apple pie and you'd still lose it if you put it to 28 national referendums.

The national equivalent would be saying that bills could only be passed if a referendum in every county in Britain voted for them. It's just not a practical way of making decisions: You just end up stuck with the status quo, no matter how bad it is.

They could have a pan-European referendum on each new treaty and decide by a majority of EU voters, but I doubt that would satisfy the people in Britain who are complaining that they're not democratic.

Mr. G, don't worry, there's an excellent fantasy novel coming out in just a few days

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Kingdom-Asunder-Bloody-Crown-Trilogy-ebook/dp/B01N8UF799/

Blair calling Corbyn a nutter - I don't know whether to laugh or cry!

Whatever you think of Corbyn he does come across a genuine man, unlike Blair of course!

Let's call him for what he his, Blair is utter scum. And he's a war criminal to boot. How he and senior British commanders remain free over their illegal action in Iraq, God only knows! Classic example of Western double standards and hypocrisy!

NickPalmer said:

Charles said:

Blue_rog said:

Serious question

If the remainers do hold a majority position in the Commons, could they collude and add an amendment to any substantive legislation that would overturn the result of the referendum if passed?

They can't "overturn" the result of the referendum because it is only advisory, but they can frustrate it.

e.g. an amendment that Article 50 can only be served following a unanimous vote of the house of commons.

Technical note on this. The Speaker of the Commons will decide whether an amendment is valid or not (yes, it's suddenly Be Nice to Bercow Month). The basic criteria are that it is not a wrecking amendment and that it has significant support. In my view (I can't speak for Bercow, obviously), a "unanimous vote only" amendment would be wrecking, while an amendment requiring that Britain's negotiating demands be put to the Commons in amendable form would not be a wrecking amendment.

"an amendment requiring that Britain's negotiating demands be put to the Commons in amendable form"

I would consider this to be wrecking. We cannot start the negotiations until A50 is triggered (i.e. after the Commons has voted). And we wouldn't be in a good position if the Commons tied the negotiators hands before we started.

Unless the demands were so vague like "will get the best deal for Britain whilst leaving the EU", but I don't think that what's the Remainers would want.

edmundintokyo said:

Malmesbury said:

If the EU had mandated a national referendum in each country, for each treaty change, then Brexit would not have happened.

The answer to complaints of no say is to give everyone a say. All the time. Given me Switzerland over Singapore....

If the answer is "we are afraid that we might get the wrong answer" - you have already lost.

If they did that there would never be a treaty change, regardless of its merits. Referendums have a little bit of randomness and chaos in them where people vote to show they're narked off with their national governments or whatever. You could have a proposal for motherhood and apple pie and you'd still lose it if you put it to 28 national referendums.

The national equivalent would be saying that bills could only be passed if a referendum in every county in Britain voted for them. It's just not a practical way of making decisions: You just end up stuck with the status quo, no matter how bad it is.

They could have a pan-European referendum on each new treaty and decide by a majority of EU voters, but I doubt that would satisfy the people in Britain who are complaining that they're not democratic.

I think you are wrong - the familiarity of basically an annual referendum would turn it from being a political football (except in terms of the European arguments about it) quite rapidly.

In Switzerland, the frequency of referenda on various subjects means that they tend to be fought on the issues, not used as political proxies.

DecrepitJohnL said:

another_richard said:

TCPoliticalBetting said:

williamglenn said:

kle4 said:

TCPoliticalBetting said:

Barnesian said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Barnesian, I understand it, but it doesn't fit with how things work. We'll only have a deal once Article 50 is triggered and negotiations complete. After that, we leave on deal terms or on WTO terms, and any rejection of the deal would be binding only on the UK, not the EU. Not only that, such an approach (supposing we could revoke Article 50 and stay) would encourage the EU to give us actively hostile terms to harm us as much as possible and make it easier for the second referendum to be a victory for them...

..and for the 16.1 million of us who want to remain in the EU.
But I do take your point.

You lost. This is time to accept the result and move on. The longer you are stuck whinging about it the more unhealthy it is for you. They left you, get over it.

I don't know, Leavers never got over it and never stopped whinging and in the end the time came and they just convinced us.

And remember the most potent argument they used, regardless of its veracity: they lied to us!
Winning the referendum was the worst thing that could ever have happened to the eurosceptics. It's only a question of time now before their whole case against the EU becomes forever discredited in the minds of the public.

straws clutching at.

I'm sure some American loyalists were saying the same thing in the 1780s and likewise Jacobites in the 1690s.

The problem the EUNationalists have is that after having left the EU there will not be the option to re-join on the old terms. Re-joining will require Euro membership and a complete acceptance of EverCloserUnion.

Now EverCloserUnion is what the EUNationalists want but its very much a minority view.

Will English remain as an official language if we leave?

I think the Irish would hope it does.

But I think a certain loss of influence for the English language within the EU would be inevitable.

The argument for why we must press on with Brexit has a lot in common with Erdogan's argument for reinstating the death penalty. We must tear up a settled part of our constitution just because the people demand it, no matter what the cost to our domestic institutions, national unity, economic future or international standing.

Casino_Royale said:

I don't think you could put a fig leaf between the politics of Blair and Osborne. The problem is that their politics are stuck in the era of the mid-90s to the mid-00s.

They are years out of date.

They were built on the assumption that money would always be available.

That the plebs would be kept pacified by 'bread and circuses' while the 'elite' modified the world to its wishes.

Malmesbury said:

edmundintokyo said:

Malmesbury said:

If the EU had mandated a national referendum in each country, for each treaty change, then Brexit would not have happened.

The answer to complaints of no say is to give everyone a say. All the time. Given me Switzerland over Singapore....

If the answer is "we are afraid that we might get the wrong answer" - you have already lost.

If they did that there would never be a treaty change, regardless of its merits. Referendums have a little bit of randomness and chaos in them where people vote to show they're narked off with their national governments or whatever. You could have a proposal for motherhood and apple pie and you'd still lose it if you put it to 28 national referendums.

The national equivalent would be saying that bills could only be passed if a referendum in every county in Britain voted for them. It's just not a practical way of making decisions: You just end up stuck with the status quo, no matter how bad it is.

They could have a pan-European referendum on each new treaty and decide by a majority of EU voters, but I doubt that would satisfy the people in Britain who are complaining that they're not democratic.

I think you are wrong - the familiarity of basically an annual referendum would turn it from being a political football (except in terms of the European arguments about it) quite rapidly.

In Switzerland, the frequency of referenda on various subjects means that they tend to be fought on the issues, not used as political proxies.

So would you be happy making British government decisions based on the unanimous vote of all the counties?

Hmm, UKIP seems to have given up on Scotland.

Sandpit said:

DecrepitJohnL said:

another_richard said:

TCPoliticalBetting said:

williamglenn said:

kle4 said:

TCPoliticalBetting said:

Barnesian said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Barnesian, I understand it, but it doesn't fit with how things work. We'll only have a deal once Article 50 is triggered and negotiations complete. After that, we leave on deal terms or on WTO terms, and any rejection of the deal would be binding only on the UK, not the EU. Not only that, such an approach (supposing we could revoke Article 50 and stay) would encourage the EU to give us actively hostile terms to harm us as much as possible and make it easier for the second referendum to be a victory for them...

..and for the 16.1 million of us who want to remain in the EU.
But I do take your point.

You lost. This is time to accept the result and move on. The longer you are stuck whinging about it the more unhealthy it is for you. They left you, get over it.

I don't know, Leavers never got over it and never stopped whinging and in the end the time came and they just convinced us.

And remember the most potent argument they used, regardless of its veracity: they lied to us!
Winning the referendum was the worst thing that could ever have happened to the eurosceptics. It's only a question of time now before their whole case against the EU becomes forever discredited in the minds of the public.

straws clutching at.

I'm sure some American loyalists were saying the same thing in the 1780s and likewise Jacobites in the 1690s.

The problem the EUNationalists have is that after having left the EU there will not be the option to re-join on the old terms. Re-joining will require Euro membership and a complete acceptance of EverCloserUnion.

Now EverCloserUnion is what the EUNationalists want but its very much a minority view.

Will English remain as an official language if we leave?

The Irish would like to hope so.

It is one of the funnier outcomes that the EU may/will drop English as an official language.

Theuniondivvie said:

Pulpstar said:

Osborne, Blair & Jim Murphy !

Lol

Only need McTernan to ensure absolute, disastrous failure.

You forgot Nick Clegg.

.

malcolmg said:

GIN1138 said:

malcolmg said:

GIN1138 said:

Is Tony going to stand as a Labour MP? Or start his own political Party?

Hard to see how much "influence" he can have outside that unfashionable dump called Parliament that so wasted his time...

Morning GIN, all well with you

Yes Malc I'm very well thank you.

You OK?

Hale and Hearty GIN, though not much fun on here recently , just lots of bollox and brexit doom and gloom.
Meanwhile we are going to spash out £500M fitting new boiler and rewiring teh richest woman in the world's house and yet another borefest from Jakie Rowling. Still smiling despite it though.

.

Scotland is costing billions per-annum in arrogance and yet a net-contributor tax-payer is not allowed to claim business-expenses? England pays so England says: Dem iz da rools!

Italiawatch:

https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/800304678634422272

Any thoughts on a Le Pen vs Melenchon run-off?

https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/800301758564171776

TCPoliticalBetting said:

A Lib Dem view on what is ahead, from an ex SPAD.
http://nicktyrone.com/one-move-ends-eu/
" I am becoming increasingly convinced that Marine Le Pen will win the French presidential election in April of next year......
I fear for the future of the EU. As in, I really give it less than a 50% chance of surviving another decade."

If Marine le Pen does win (still a big if, despite everything else that has happened) then it probably won't survive 2017.

The more the EU is beset by problems, the more scared it gets, and the more intransigent and inflexible it becomes. Inability to agree a compromise even with somebody advancing such a modest platform as Cameron led directly to Brexit. Hard to imagine that the whole construct won't burst into flames the second Le Pen wins, should that come to pass.

The EU resembles more and more a frightened little circle of wagons. It seems to be determined to treat Russia, China, the United States and the United Kingdom as various kinds of enemies all at once. That isn't sustainable. Something has to give.

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Rook, Romescope sounds cooler

Renzivision?

david_herdson said:

Any thoughts on a Le Pen vs Melenchon run-off?

https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/800301758564171776

Crying and screaming in Brussels and Frankfurt, one would presume?

Black_Rook said:

The EU resembles more and more a frightened little circle of wagons. It seems to be determined to treat Russia, China, the United States and the United Kingdom as various kinds of enemies all at once. That isn't sustainable. Something has to give.

If France elects Le Pen I think a smaller, tighter circle of wagons of the remaining liberal states would be the right response. And they'd be right to be frightened, as should everyone else.

Off-topic:

Sad that the death-toll in the Uttar-Pradesh train-crash has hit 100. One lost life is too many.

I would like to ask a question though: India's railways are a legacy - and we may have lost the jewel but also the liability - but how does a nation like India solve this problem? We struggle with high-quality, small rail-systems within Network-Rail and would probably struggle to commit if imperiously we were responsible for India?

How should we square this circle? Shoulb India divest some legacy routes?

:RIP:

edmundintokyo said:

Black_Rook said:

The EU resembles more and more a frightened little circle of wagons. It seems to be determined to treat Russia, China, the United States and the United Kingdom as various kinds of enemies all at once. That isn't sustainable. Something has to give.

If France elects Le Pen I think a smaller, tighter circle of wagons of the remaining liberal states would be the right response. And they'd be right to be frightened, as should everyone else.

Why on earth should we be frightened? What is she going to do, invade?

PlatoSaid said:

That's a lot of people

http://www.breitbart.com/big-journalism/2016/11/19/breitbart-news-hits-300-million-pageviews-45-million-uniques-last-31-days/

"Conservative media giant Breitbart News generated 300 million pageviews and 45 million unique visitors over the last 31 days.

“Breitbart News’ highly engaged community of readers seek first-in-class conservative news,” said Breitbart CEO and President Larry Solov. “And that’s exactly what we’ve given them.”

With plans for expansion to new international markets underway, Breitbart’s strength across social media continues to swell.

According to social media analytics leader NewsWhip, Breitbart maintains the number one political Twitter and Facebook pages in the world...

Not really those numbers and commentary don't add up. If its 45 million unique visitors then they're averaging just over 6 pageviews in a month each - hardly "highly engaged".

Or its a far smaller number of highly engaged people visiting from different devices/IP addresses etc so they are engaged but there's a lot less actual visitors.

Or its a very large number of visitors who've visited once or twice only ever, probably because someone else like you shared a link on a site or medium they actually do visit.

HurstLlama said:

edmundintokyo said:

Black_Rook said:

The EU resembles more and more a frightened little circle of wagons. It seems to be determined to treat Russia, China, the United States and the United Kingdom as various kinds of enemies all at once. That isn't sustainable. Something has to give.

If France elects Le Pen I think a smaller, tighter circle of wagons of the remaining liberal states would be the right response. And they'd be right to be frightened, as should everyone else.

Why on earth should we be frightened? What is she going to do, invade?

Well, it's happened before, and unlike 1066, this time France has an aircraft carrier with actual planes on it.

HurstLlama said:

edmundintokyo said:

Black_Rook said:

The EU resembles more and more a frightened little circle of wagons. It seems to be determined to treat Russia, China, the United States and the United Kingdom as various kinds of enemies all at once. That isn't sustainable. Something has to give.

If France elects Le Pen I think a smaller, tighter circle of wagons of the remaining liberal states would be the right response. And they'd be right to be frightened, as should everyone else.

Why on earth should we be frightened? What is she going to do, invade?

Well, France has nuclear weapons so she could certainly start a nuclear war with somebody. That somebody probably wouldn't be Britain or an EU member, but it wouldn't be good.

But the wider picture is that we are / would be seeing a repeat of the 1930s: Nationalistic governments, international institutions unraveling, lack of respect for human rights. Where that ends is with authoritarians crushing domestic dissent then going to war with each other.

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. L, 1066 was the Normans. Early 13th century was the last invasion (Napoleon did invade Ireland).

Edited extra bit: by the French*, I meant.

[On second thoughts, unsure if Napoleon invaded or just funded/supplied rebels].

Think some French regulars were part of the forces that invaded Fishguard for two days in Feb 1797.

Mr. Owl, I didn't know Wales got invaded (assuming I'm remembering the right place).

david_herdson said:

Any thoughts on a Le Pen vs Melenchon run-off?

https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/800301758564171776

Well feisty.

malcolmg said:

murali_s said:

Blair calling Corbyn a nutter - I don't know whether to laugh or cry!

Whatever you think of Corbyn he does come across a genuine man, unlike Blair of course!

Let's call him for what he his, Blair is utter scum. And he's a war criminal to boot. How he and senior British commanders remain free over their illegal action in Iraq, God only knows! Classic example of Western double standards and hypocrisy!

Yesand they have the brass neck to pontificate about Putin who is like a teddy bear compared to those warmongers.

I respectfully suggest you read up on what happened in Chechnya - be careful about googling for images. The Russian forces were approaching Japanese WWII behaviour as some points...

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Owl, I didn't know Wales got invaded (assuming I'm remembering the right place).

Fishguard is in Pembrokeshire so yes Wales was invaded - Feb 22-24.1797.

Mr. Owl, ah, that'll be William Marshal's patch. Ish. Give or take 500 years.

[I have read small amounts of modern history].

Anyway, I must be off.

PlatoSaid said:

This is an excellent read, the most sensible commentary and it comes from a blinking tabloid

http://nypost.com/2016/11/20/keep-crying-wolf-about-trump-and-no-one-will-listen-to-a-real-crisis/

That is a good article, the OTT reporting is getting quite out of hand, and the point about collusion is well made. I would be interesting to know if similar things happen here.

malcolmg said:

Malmesbury said:

malcolmg said:

murali_s said:

Blair calling Corbyn a nutter - I don't know whether to laugh or cry!

Whatever you think of Corbyn he does come across a genuine man, unlike Blair of course!

Let's call him for what he his, Blair is utter scum. And he's a war criminal to boot. How he and senior British commanders remain free over their illegal action in Iraq, God only knows! Classic example of Western double standards and hypocrisy!

Yesand they have the brass neck to pontificate about Putin who is like a teddy bear compared to those warmongers.

I respectfully suggest you read up on what happened in Chechnya - be careful about googling for images. The Russian forces were approaching Japanese WWII behaviour as some points...

It does not distract from the two faced hypocrisy that emanates from the UK. Look at Yemen , our bombs are doing as good a job as any Japanese / Russian atrocity, no need to even mention Iraq and Afghanistan even.

It does make claims like "Putin who is like a teddy bear compared to those warmongers" absolute bollocks though.

A fascinating study by You Gov of political views within the political parties. See

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/11/16/trump-brexit-front-national-afd-branches-same-tree/

Uses the two axes - Authoritarian/Non authoritarian and Right/Left views to segment electors.

Shows the proportion of people who are Liberal Left, Liberal Centre Right, Authoritarian Populism Centre and Authoritarian Populism Right and how many of each are in the traditional political parties.

Note:
1. To identify the Authoritarian Populist groupings Exploratory Factor Analysis was used on a series of variables associated with the theoretical foundations of Authoritarian Populism (anti-human rights, anti-EU, anti-immigrant, pro-strong foreign policy) with an alpha scale check that gives you a reliability coefficient.

2. Inevitably, the interpretation and grouping of results of this type is as much an art as a science, so the results involve the analyst’s own judgement.

williamglenn said:

HurstLlama said:

edmundintokyo said:

Black_Rook said:

The EU resembles more and more a frightened little circle of wagons. It seems to be determined to treat Russia, China, the United States and the United Kingdom as various kinds of enemies all at once. That isn't sustainable. Something has to give.

If France elects Le Pen I think a smaller, tighter circle of wagons of the remaining liberal states would be the right response. And they'd be right to be frightened, as should everyone else.

Why on earth should we be frightened? What is she going to do, invade?

What would she do about Molenbeek in the event of a repeat of Bataclan? Invasion isn't that far fetched.

Yes, that would be the potential for real ugliness -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_massacre_of_1961.

Philip_Thompson said:

malcolmg said:

Malmesbury said:

malcolmg said:

murali_s said:

Blair calling Corbyn a nutter - I don't know whether to laugh or cry!

Whatever you think of Corbyn he does come across a genuine man, unlike Blair of course!

Let's call him for what he his, Blair is utter scum. And he's a war criminal to boot. How he and senior British commanders remain free over their illegal action in Iraq, God only knows! Classic example of Western double standards and hypocrisy!

Yesand they have the brass neck to pontificate about Putin who is like a teddy bear compared to those warmongers.

I respectfully suggest you read up on what happened in Chechnya - be careful about googling for images. The Russian forces were approaching Japanese WWII behaviour as some points...

It does not distract from the two faced hypocrisy that emanates from the UK. Look at Yemen , our bombs are doing as good a job as any Japanese / Russian atrocity, no need to even mention Iraq and Afghanistan even.

It does make claims like "Putin who is like a teddy bear compared to those warmongers" absolute bollocks though.

It does not change the truth that many of our sainted leaders are every bit as bad as Putin, though we live in a dreamland in this country with halfwits believing we are pure and on the side of right. Delusion.

edmundintokyo said:

Black_Rook said:

The EU resembles more and more a frightened little circle of wagons. It seems to be determined to treat Russia, China, the United States and the United Kingdom as various kinds of enemies all at once. That isn't sustainable. Something has to give.

If France elects Le Pen I think a smaller, tighter circle of wagons of the remaining liberal states would be the right response. And they'd be right to be frightened, as should everyone else.

What would be left? Greece is a basket case, Italy going the same way, the Visegrad bloc in open revolt against Brussels' diktat and multiculturalism. Nobody should discount the far left leading a coalition in Spain should the centre-right minority administration falter. None of the Nordic states are signed up for the Euro, other than Finland which is distant from the core, and the hard right is strong in Sweden and Denmark.

Your posited liberal bloc presently appears to consist of Germany, Austria and the Low Countries - and Austria, the Netherlands and Flanders all have thriving hard right nationalist movements. It doesn't amount to much.

This all comes, ultimately, from the fact that European integration has grown too deep, too all-pervasive, and it has become sclerotic in the process. The EU is stuck halfway between a commonwealth of sovereign states (which is where it should've stayed) and a federation (which it seems unwilling and unable to become.) That makes it both acutely vulnerable and increasingly paranoid. It views almost every outside development as a threat to its own cohesion. And the more it reacts against the rest of the world, the more vulnerable and the more paranoid it becomes.

Blue_rog said:

O/T. Anyone else getting strange format for comments?

Nope, still loads of right wing guff here.

PB readers will no doubt be delighted to know that I have just written the world's greatest AV thread (in my head and in my opinion).

Coming soon ...

If the EU and its institutions are going to survive then Juncker and Verhofstadt have to be dumped. They can be pointed at by those who detest the commission and parliament as being unreasonable and vindictive.
Safe pairs of hands need to be found.

On another note do the LD true believers on this forum really think that becoming a "one trick pony" party is going to improve their credibility?

williamglenn said:

Black_Rook said:

Hard to imagine that the whole construct won't burst into flames the second Le Pen wins, should that come to pass.

By what mechanism?

Le Pen wants France out of the EU as well as the Euro, and will be endowed with considerable executive power. I seem to recall that she would hold a referendum on Frexit. I don't honestly know if she has the power to revert to the franc on her own authority, but if France were to abandon the Euro that would smash the single currency and might well be enough to finish off the EU on its own.

Certainly, the idea of the EU without France is absurd.

nunu said:

Philip_Thompson said:

PlatoSaid said:

That's a lot of people

http://www.breitbart.com/big-journalism/2016/11/19/breitbart-news-hits-300-million-pageviews-45-million-uniques-last-31-days/

"Conservative media giant Breitbart News generated 300 million pageviews and 45 million unique visitors over the last 31 days.

“Breitbart News’ highly engaged community of readers seek first-in-class conservative news,” said Breitbart CEO and President Larry Solov. “And that’s exactly what we’ve given them.”

With plans for expansion to new international markets underway, Breitbart’s strength across social media continues to swell.

According to social media analytics leader NewsWhip, Breitbart maintains the number one political Twitter and Facebook pages in the world...

Not really those numbers and commentary don't add up. If its 45 million unique visitors then they're averaging just over 6 pageviews in a month each - hardly "highly engaged".

Or its a far smaller number of highly engaged people visiting from different devices/IP addresses etc so they are engaged but there's a lot less actual visitors.

Or its a very large number of visitors who've visited once or twice only ever, probably because someone else like you shared a link on a site or medium they actually do visit.

Using logic? Tsk. that doesn't matter in a post-truth world. Yes, Le Pen can easliy win all she has to do is make sure every word that comes out of her mouth is a lie and bingo the Presidency is hers, the voting system makes zero difference. How is a politician able to argue against people who are willing to sink any depths to win? They can't.

Well I'm not betting against her much. Interesting to see Fillon has come in on BF over last day or two.

malcolmg said:

Philip_Thompson said:

malcolmg said:

Malmesbury said:

malcolmg said:

murali_s said:

Blair calling Corbyn a nutter - I don't know whether to laugh or cry!

Whatever you think of Corbyn he does come across a genuine man, unlike Blair of course!

Let's call him for what he his, Blair is utter scum. And he's a war criminal to boot. How he and senior British commanders remain free over their illegal action in Iraq, God only knows! Classic example of Western double standards and hypocrisy!

Yesand they have the brass neck to pontificate about Putin who is like a teddy bear compared to those warmongers.

I respectfully suggest you read up on what happened in Chechnya - be careful about googling for images. The Russian forces were approaching Japanese WWII behaviour as some points...

It does not distract from the two faced hypocrisy that emanates from the UK. Look at Yemen , our bombs are doing as good a job as any Japanese / Russian atrocity, no need to even mention Iraq and Afghanistan even.

It does make claims like "Putin who is like a teddy bear compared to those warmongers" absolute bollocks though.

It does not change the truth that many of our sainted leaders are every bit as bad as Putin, though we live in a dreamland in this country with halfwits believing we are pure and on the side of right. Delusion.

Good afternoon Mr.G. Crikey, you are in a gloomy mood today. That we are on the side of the angels is self-evident because we are British. The Blair administration made mistakes, as have others, but that does not change the eternal verities.

Anyway just to cheer you up, the price of Grouse at my local off-licence is back up to £16

timmo said:

If the EU and its institutions are going to survive then Juncker and Verhofstadt have to be dumped. They can be pointed at by those who detest the commission and parliament as being unreasonable and vindictive.
Safe pairs of hands need to be found.

On another note do the LD true believers on this forum really think that becoming a "one trick pony" party is going to improve their credibility?

No.

The EU under the influence of France tends towards the protectionist end of the spectrum.

As free traders, Lib Dems should be active supporters of leaving the EU customs union and arranging free trade deals acroos the world, instead of supporting protectionist EU trade barriers against outsiders.

So Lib Dem support for remain is undermining their own liberal free trade philosophy and foundation. No wonder people don't know what the Lib Dems stand for any more.