politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Betting on will Donald Trump accept the election result

Nigelb said:

IanB2 said:

Paul_Bedfordshire said:

Alanbrooke said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Nigelb said:

Not the least reason for continued bickering about what happens next is that much the same appears to being conducted, sometimes quite publicly, within the cabinet.
When there's no settled policy, it seems rather otiose to argue that those who voted remain ought just to shut up.

Cabinet members ticking each other off publically, and being slapped down by the PM does indeed give the impression that there is no plan.

I have not seen any evidence that there is a plan, or that May is capable of forming one. In the absence of a plan the outcome defaults to Hard Brexit. Get used to it.

Probably best.

Why stay in an organisation that cant deliver a trade deal with the US or Canada or anywhere else for that matter.

Even the germans are now coming to realise the Brits had a point.

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/ttip-und-freihandel/kommentar-zu-ceta-blamierte-europaeer-14492117.html

the Walloonies are holding them by the balls and brand EUrope is being trashed by its failure to deliver deals.

Im beginning to recognise that there is no alternative to hard brexit. Its going to be more difficult, especially in the short term but, so be it. What we are regaining is far more precious than gold sovereigns - and if we really take a hit then the welfare state will go which in the long term is the best thing we can do for the underclass who will have to stop being like sheep and learn to think for themselves again.

Pain for other people?

I think Mr Bedfordshire is of the 'who; whom' school of politics.

No, when I get fed up with people endlessly banging on about something after the decision has been made I resort to the Jeremy Beadle school of politics and say provocative things to make them jump on the saddle of their high horse so fast that they fall off the other side.

After all you are all looking for confirmation that we brexiters are all baby eating redwoodites, salivating over the prospect of a return of Workhouses?

Paul_Bedfordshire said:

Alanbrooke said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Nigelb said:

Not the least reason for continued bickering about what happens next is that much the same appears to being conducted, sometimes quite publicly, within the cabinet.
When there's no settled policy, it seems rather otiose to argue that those who voted remain ought just to shut up.

Cabinet members ticking each other off publically, and being slapped down by the PM does indeed give the impression that there is no plan.

I have not seen any evidence that there is a plan, or that May is capable of forming one. In the absence of a plan the outcome defaults to Hard Brexit. Get used to it.

Probably best.

Why stay in an organisation that cant deliver a trade deal with the US or Canada or anywhere else for that matter.

Even the germans are now coming to realise the Brits had a point.

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/ttip-und-freihandel/kommentar-zu-ceta-blamierte-europaeer-14492117.html

the Walloonies are holding them by the balls and brand EUrope is being trashed by its failure to deliver deals.

Im beginning to recognise that there is no alternative to hard brexit. Its going to be more difficult, especially in the short term but, so be it. What we are regaining is far more precious than gold sovereigns - and if we really take a hit then the welfare state will go which in the long term is the best thing we can do for the underclass who will have to stop being like sheep and learn to think for themselves again.

The supposition apparently being that the welfare state is something for (1) other people and (2) the idle and able-bodied.

Still, perhaps the idle will kill and eat the old, the sick and the disabled, and the problem will take care of itself.

Charles said:

Gardenwalker said:

Roger said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Seema Malhotra's take on the post-referendum intolerance:

http://ebx.sh/2et6cjh

Interesting article. I heard of my first bit of post vote racism yesterday. An Italian friend who owns a wine bar was speaking to a representative from a brewery ordering beer. He had to answer several standard questions. His English is reasonable but not perfect and one of the questions he couldn't understand so asked for clarification.

This didn't help much and he heard the lady from the brewery presumably believing her hand was covering the phone saying to a colleague 'When are these foreigners going to be sent home?". When they resumed my friend reminded her that he might be a foreigner but he was also a customer! Flustered she said she wasn't talking about him.........

He said he's never encountered anything like that before and he's been in the UK for 4 years.

Undeniable that Brexit has given many the license to express the worst kinds of opinions.

And let us not forget Jo Cox was murdered by a Brexiting madman.

It is very poor show for Brexiters to deny this (though they are not of course responsible for it).

That's a very poor show by you.

All we know is that Jo Cox was murdered by a madman. We know nothing about his reasons.

I might be wrong, but didn't he give some indication during his first court appearance?

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. B2, do you want milk in your coffee?

Yuk

It was stated as a fact on previous thread last night by a poster that

"The non-productive won it for Leave."

Is there any proof that's the case and if so, should the UK respect the rights of theses people that have

1) Unfortunately become unemployed despite previously working and paying taxes
2) Reached pensionable age having worked hard and paid substantial taxes in their lifetime
3). Sick and in need through bad luck and circumstances having previously contributed to the country.

Alternatively, as this left wing poster suggests should the UK simply remove these voters rights and remove from the register when they find themselves in such circumstances as they seem to make the wrong decisions. ( Aka - or rather decisions that specific poster did not agree with)

Discuss.

Indigo said:

Gardenwalker said:

Indigo said:

Gardenwalker said:

Roger said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Seema Malhotra's take on the post-referendum intolerance:

http://ebx.sh/2et6cjh

Interesting article. I heard of my first bit of post vote racism yesterday. An Italian friend who owns a wine bar was speaking to a representative from a brewery ordering beer. He had to answer several standard questions. His English is reasonable but not perfect and one of the questions he couldn't understand so asked for clarification.

This didn't help much and he heard the lady from the brewery presumably believing her hand was covering the phone saying to a colleague 'When are these foreigners going to be sent home?". When they resumed my friend reminded her that he might be a foreigner but he was also a customer! Flustered she said she wasn't talking about him.........

He said he's never encountered anything like that before and he's been in the UK for 4 years.

Undeniable that Brexit has given many the license to express the worst kinds of opinions.

And let us not forget Jo Cox was murdered by a Brexiting madman.

It is very poor show for Brexiters to deny this (though they are not of course responsible for it).

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/brexiter-brutally-beaten-remain-voter-9047676

As I said, it's a poor show from you.

I denied nothing. Remainers it turns out are just as nasty. What you are doing is calling the kettle black.

The mature response from Brexiters is to be against this kind of bigotry, not to deny it.

You seek to deny by citing one example of anti-Brexit hatred as if "both sides are the same".
Similar to Trumps attempted character assassinations of Hillary.

But one rather bizarre case is not equivalent to the low-level antipathy if not racism experienced by many immigrants and ethnic minorities today.

Hopefully it will simmer down in due course, but one of things that makes me proudest of this country is its relative level of tolerance. I don't want to be like France (cannot disagree with Alanbrooke above). Brexit has moved the dial - even slightly - toward intolerance.

MP_SE said:

Casino_Royale said:

Indigo said:

Gardenwalker said:

Indigo said:

Gardenwalker said:

Roger said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Seema Malhotra's take on the post-referendum intolerance:

http://ebx.sh/2et6cjh

Interesting article. I heard of my first bit of post vote racism yesterday. An Italian friend who owns a wine bar was speaking to a representative from a brewery ordering beer. He had to answer several standard questions. His English is reasonable but not perfect and one of the questions he couldn't understand so asked for clarification.

This didn't help much and he heard the lady from the brewery presumably believing her hand was covering the phone saying to a colleague 'When are these foreigners going to be sent home?". When they resumed my friend reminded her that he might be a foreigner but he was also a customer! Flustered she said she wasn't talking about him.........

He said he's never encountered anything like that before and he's been in the UK for 4 years.

Undeniable that Brexit has given many the license to express the worst kinds of opinions.

And let us not forget Jo Cox was murdered by a Brexiting madman.

It is very poor show for Brexiters to deny this (though they are not of course responsible for it).

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/brexiter-brutally-beaten-remain-voter-9047676

As I said, it's a poor show from you.

I denied nothing. Remainers it turns out are just as nasty. What you are doing is calling the kettle black.

It always seems to be Remainers who encounter the darkest and most lurid examples of racial abuse in our post Brexit world.

I work with many Europeans in my office, and my wife is Bulgarian and has an eclectic mix of international friends, none of whom have encountered or complained of any.

One English person sent her a private email mourning and lambasting the result in Roger-like terms. She had to respond politely pointing out she voted Leave, and why.

I have noticed that.

A great many of my friends are of various ethnicities and not a single one has mentioned post-Brexit racism.

So we have one group who you think are over-egging the pudding (and you seem to indicate are lying), because your experience does not match it.

Might it be your friends know your inclination towards leave, and don't mention it?

In addition, you have to be careful about your data set. In my case, most of my friends are middle class, and are probably less likely to suffer racism than (say) working class people in poorer neighbourhoods.

Amongst my group, the biggest problem with Brexit so far has not been racism, but business uncertainty.

Moses_ said:

It was stated as a fact on previous thread last night by a poster that

"The non-productive won it for Leave."

Is there any proof that's the case and if so, should the UK respect the rights of theses people that have

1) Unfortunately become unemployed despite previously working and paying taxes
2) Reached pensionable age having worked hard and paid substantial taxes in their lifetime
3). Sick and in need through bad luck and circumstances having previously contributed to the country.

Alternatively, as this left wing poster suggests should the UK simply remove these voters rights and remove from the register when they find themselves in such circumstances as they seem to make the wrong decisions. ( Aka - or rather decisions that specific poster did not agree with)

Discuss.

Lol. Young people are the exception that proves the rule.

I was doing a question time session for local sixth formers (years 12/13 in newspeak) this week and one of the questions, paraphrasing only slightly, was along the lines of "since it is our future and old people are going to die soon anyway, shouldn't they not have been allowed to vote".

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Jonathan, part of the blame rests with Cameron who did sod all preparatory work and prevented the Civil Service from doing anything.

I'll accept that argument against Cameron when someone shows me leave's consolidated plan for what would happen afterwards.

Oh ...

Gardenwalker said:

Indigo said:

Gardenwalker said:

Indigo said:

Gardenwalker said:

Roger said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Seema Malhotra's take on the post-referendum intolerance:

http://ebx.sh/2et6cjh

Interesting article. I heard of my first bit of post vote racism yesterday. An Italian friend who owns a wine bar was speaking to a representative from a brewery ordering beer. He had to answer several standard questions. His English is reasonable but not perfect and one of the questions he couldn't understand so asked for clarification.

This didn't help much and he heard the lady from the brewery presumably believing her hand was covering the phone saying to a colleague 'When are these foreigners going to be sent home?". When they resumed my friend reminded her that he might be a foreigner but he was also a customer! Flustered she said she wasn't talking about him.........

He said he's never encountered anything like that before and he's been in the UK for 4 years.

Undeniable that Brexit has given many the license to express the worst kinds of opinions.

And let us not forget Jo Cox was murdered by a Brexiting madman.

It is very poor show for Brexiters to deny this (though they are not of course responsible for it).

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/brexiter-brutally-beaten-remain-voter-9047676

As I said, it's a poor show from you.

I denied nothing. Remainers it turns out are just as nasty. What you are doing is calling the kettle black.

The mature response from Brexiters is to be against this kind of bigotry, not to deny it.

You seek to deny by citing one example of anti-Brexit hatred as if "both sides are the same".
Similar to Trumps attempted character assassinations of Hillary.

But one rather bizarre case is not equivalent to the low-level antipathy if not racism experienced by many immigrants and ethnic minorities today.

Hopefully it will simmer down in due course, but one of things that makes me proudest of this country is its relative level of tolerance. I don't want to be like France (cannot disagree with Alanbrooke above). Brexit has moved the dial - even slightly - toward intolerance.

I'm not convinced. Whether or not a crime gets treated as a Hate Crime (an absurd term in itself) is very subjective.

I don't doubt that racial animosity exists in the UK. I don't believe that Brexit has intensified it.

Ishmael_X said:

Gardenwalker said:

Roger said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Seema Malhotra's take on the post-referendum intolerance:

http://ebx.sh/2et6cjh

Interesting article. I heard of my first bit of post vote racism yesterday. An Italian friend who owns a wine bar was speaking to a representative from a brewery ordering beer. He had to answer several standard questions. His English is reasonable but not perfect and one of the questions he couldn't understand so asked for clarification.

This didn't help much and he heard the lady from the brewery presumably believing her hand was covering the phone saying to a colleague 'When are these foreigners going to be sent home?". When they resumed my friend reminded her that he might be a foreigner but he was also a customer! Flustered she said she wasn't talking about him.........

He said he's never encountered anything like that before and he's been in the UK for 4 years.

Undeniable that Brexit has given many the license to express the worst kinds of opinions.

And let us not forget Jo Cox was murdered by a Brexiting madman.

It is very poor show for Brexiters to deny this (though they are not of course responsible for it).

Not undeniable at all. "Licence" is a lazy metaphor, given that the laws against "hate speech" are more severe than at any previous time in history. It is pretty much to get an accurate metric of how this stuff varies over time and how much is differential reporting. And the bloke who murdered Jo Cox was pretty clearly that kind of bloke before the idea of a referendum ever crossed Cameron's mind.

There are always nutjobs. But as political discourse changes so does perception of what is acceptable behaviour.

Those who might have kept quiet before feel freer to express themselves. Those who expressed themselves before may find it a smaller step to commit violence.

See also how genocides start. Though I hesitate to Godwin so early in the morning.

We Tories ought to get this instinctively. It is custom, society and order that prevent our worst instincts emerging. Even if we believe humans are naturally altruistic, as I do, our dark urges are undeniable.

Ishmael_X said:

Gardenwalker said:

Indigo said:

Gardenwalker said:

Indigo said:

Gardenwalker said:

Roger said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Seema Malhotra's take on the post-referendum intolerance:

http://ebx.sh/2et6cjh

Interesting article. I heard of my first bit of post vote racism yesterday. An Italian friend who owns a wine bar was speaking to a representative from a brewery ordering beer. He had to answer several standard questions. His English is reasonable but not perfect and one of the questions he couldn't understand so asked for clarification.

This didn't help much and he heard the lady from the brewery presumably believing her hand was covering the phone saying to a colleague 'When are these foreigners going to be sent home?". When they resumed my friend reminded her that he might be a foreigner but he was also a customer! Flustered she said she wasn't talking about him.........

He said he's never encountered anything like that before and he's been in the UK for 4 years.

Undeniable that Brexit has given many the license to express the worst kinds of opinions.

And let us not forget Jo Cox was murdered by a Brexiting madman.

It is very poor show for Brexiters to deny this (though they are not of course responsible for it).

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/brexiter-brutally-beaten-remain-voter-9047676

As I said, it's a poor show from you.

I denied nothing. Remainers it turns out are just as nasty. What you are doing is calling the kettle black.

The mature response from Brexiters is to be against this kind of bigotry, not to deny it.

That "challenge to virtue signal" gambit is really dull. I think you can take it as read that anyone posting here (and not recently having had their posting rights revoked) thinks that "this kind of bigotry" is so disgusting that express condemnation is unnecessary.
And anyone who is vile now was vile before 23 June this year. I am prepared to believe that there has been some level of blip in overt racism since 23 June, though the evidence isn't overwhelming, but we get the same thing after an English football defeat and we don't stop playing football.

Agreed. Also those anti-semite REMAINer representatives in the Labour party and the Lib Dem party were there before 23rd June spouting their venom and carry on doing it.

Jonathan said:

Charles said:

Gardenwalker said:

Roger said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Seema Malhotra's take on the post-referendum intolerance:

http://ebx.sh/2et6cjh

Interesting article. I heard of my first bit of post vote racism yesterday. An Italian friend who owns a wine bar was speaking to a representative from a brewery ordering beer. He had to answer several standard questions. His English is reasonable but not perfect and one of the questions he couldn't understand so asked for clarification.

This didn't help much and he heard the lady from the brewery presumably believing her hand was covering the phone saying to a colleague 'When are these foreigners going to be sent home?". When they resumed my friend reminded her that he might be a foreigner but he was also a customer! Flustered she said she wasn't talking about him.........

He said he's never encountered anything like that before and he's been in the UK for 4 years.

Undeniable that Brexit has given many the license to express the worst kinds of opinions.

And let us not forget Jo Cox was murdered by a Brexiting madman.

It is very poor show for Brexiters to deny this (though they are not of course responsible for it).

That's a very poor show by you.

All we know is that Jo Cox was murdered by a madman. We know nothing about his reasons.

Er, I think it's pretty clear he wasn't a liberal lefty looking to extend human rights to quinoa.

Nutters often grab on to the issue du hour. We can't conclude on his real beliefs or motives (if any sane).

JosiasJessop said:

I'll accept that argument against Cameron when someone shows me leave's consolidated plan for what would happen afterwards.

Oh ...

As ever with the Brexiteer's, it was/is someone else's fault/problem

IanB2 said:

Charles said:

IanB2 said:

Charles said:

williamglenn said:

Charles said:

williamglenn said:

Charles said:

foxinsoxuk said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Seema Malhotra's take on the post-referendum intolerance:

http://ebx.sh/2et6cjh

She is right on this:

"In my 20 years of political activism, I cannot remember a time when we had such an unshared sense of who we are as a nation."

No: for the last 20 years the people who disagreed with her we're ignored. That's not the same as not existing

And inasmuch as they were conscious that they were living in a country in which their views were ignored, we did have a 'shared sense of who we are as a nation', no?

The challenge is that now they think they are living in a country where they have the whip hand, although they don't. This cognitive dissonance was wound up by the likes of Gove and Johnson, and it will violently uncoil in their faces in due course.

Nah - I think they didn't really give a monkey for what those prays in London (and i include myself as one) got up to.

The liberal metropolitan mindset took that for a shared sense of nation. They smiled, and passed and paid - but ultimately forgot that the secret people might one day wake.

Your vision of a country split between the metropolis and the rural poor is equally skewed. You ignore the majority who are in neither category - a blind spot that is just as big as the mindset you believe has been overturned.

I'm not splitting between the metropolis and the rural poor. Splitting between London and the rest. (And, obviously, not 100% of people in each area buy into the respective mindset)

The divisions never really healed from the 1640s; it was always only a matter of time before they broke out again.

Before that really. There were definitelyissues with Flemmish immigrants "stealing our jobs" in the Tudor years

Questions with only two answers lead to bitterness and hatred, clearly. Suddenly it becomes obvious that the Liberals have for decades been the thin line between us and civil war.

Not true. The One Nation approach is the way forward. Leaders with the ability to understand and govern in the interests of both London and the country/small towns

And good morning - quite a tight test finish this morning....

Paul_Bedfordshire said:

Nigelb said:

IanB2 said:

Paul_Bedfordshire said:

Alanbrooke said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Nigelb said:

Not the least reason for continued bickering about what happens next is that much the same appears to being conducted, sometimes quite publicly, within the cabinet.
When there's no settled policy, it seems rather otiose to argue that those who voted remain ought just to shut up.

Cabinet members ticking each other off publically, and being slapped down by the PM does indeed give the impression that there is no plan.

I have not seen any evidence that there is a plan, or that May is capable of forming one. In the absence of a plan the outcome defaults to Hard Brexit. Get used to it.

Probably best.

Why stay in an organisation that cant deliver a trade deal with the US or Canada or anywhere else for that matter.

Even the germans are now coming to realise the Brits had a point.

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/ttip-und-freihandel/kommentar-zu-ceta-blamierte-europaeer-14492117.html

the Walloonies are holding them by the balls and brand EUrope is being trashed by its failure to deliver deals.

Im beginning to recognise that there is no alternative to hard brexit. Its going to be more difficult, especially in the short term but, so be it. What we are regaining is far more precious than gold sovereigns - and if we really take a hit then the welfare state will go which in the long term is the best thing we can do for the underclass who will have to stop being like sheep and learn to think for themselves again.

Pain for other people?

I think Mr Bedfordshire is of the 'who; whom' school of politics.

I get fed up with people endlessly banging on about something after the decision has been made

Agree. Nothing irritated me more when, in 1997, the Conservatives insisted on remaining the opposition, indeed didn't disband themselves, and then tried to win another election.

''Yes - that unmentionable religion of peace whose bearded children we are bringing in.''

I am amazed that there is so little coverage of the case in Paklistan where they are about to execute a christian woman for drinking from the same crockery as muslims.

Why do we even have diplomatic relations with such a country? Why do we accept a single immigrant from that country? why do we even allow them an embassy? why don;t we have economic sanctions against them? Why do we have sporting contests with them?

Mr. Topping, an election and a decision are different things. Likewise, in 1997 the Conservatives didn't try to remain the Government.

Charles said:

JosiasJessop said:

Charles said:

Gardenwalker said:

Roger said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Seema Malhotra's take on the post-referendum intolerance:

http://ebx.sh/2et6cjh

Interesting article. I heard of my first bit of post vote racism yesterday. An Italian friend who owns a wine bar was speaking to a representative from a brewery ordering beer. He had to answer several standard questions. His English is reasonable but not perfect and one of the questions he couldn't understand so asked for clarification.

This didn't help much and he heard the lady from the brewery presumably believing her hand was covering the phone saying to a colleague 'When are these foreigners going to be sent home?". When they resumed my friend reminded her that he might be a foreigner but he was also a customer! Flustered she said she wasn't talking about him.........

He said he's never encountered anything like that before and he's been in the UK for 4 years.

Undeniable that Brexit has given many the license to express the worst kinds of opinions.

And let us not forget Jo Cox was murdered by a Brexiting madman.

It is very poor show for Brexiters to deny this (though they are not of course responsible for it).

That's a very poor show by you.

All we know is that Jo Cox was murdered by a madman. We know nothing about his reasons.

I might be wrong, but didn't he give some indication during his first court appearance?

I think he shouted something that could be construed as such (don't recall if Brexit related or just generic far right nonsense). But if he's a butter - as most seem to agree - then we can't definitively conclude that was the real driving factor

These things do not occur in a vacuum. It's perverse to suggest that the mood music of the debate - prevailingly anti-immigrant - would have had no influence.

This is the problem with people who suggest that Brexit has caused no increase in hate crime by arguing against every incident.

''Sophistry.''

Again there are double standards from the left here. Jo Cox's murderer was responding to the Brexit Zeitgeist. But muslim nut jobs stabbing people in broad daylight are 'acting alone, nothing to do with islam'.

TCPoliticalBetting said:

JosiasJessop said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Jonathan, part of the blame rests with Cameron who did sod all preparatory work and prevented the Civil Service from doing anything.

I'll accept that argument against Cameron when someone shows me leave's consolidated plan for what would happen afterwards.
Oh ...

Were the LEAVE campaigners in charge of any civil servants with the right to direct them to do such work?

JJ You really keep on trying to fight against Brexit, get over it, move on please.

LOL.

If you read my posts (I accept it sadly seems a hard task for some leavers) then you will see I have accepted Brexit. In fact, I've given some good (*) arguments for a quick Brexit, even if that means hard Brexit. I do not favour another referendum, and have never argued for one.

I'm not quite sure how that makes you think I'm fighting against Brexit.

But that doesn't mean that I can't point out when I think people are wrong. Even when they're leavers.

(*) At least I think so.

Charles said:

IanB2 said:

Charles said:

IanB2 said:

Charles said:

williamglenn said:

Charles said:

williamglenn said:

Charles said:

foxinsoxuk said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Seema Malhotra's take on the post-referendum intolerance:

http://ebx.sh/2et6cjh

She is right on this:

"In my 20 years of political activism, I cannot remember a time when we had such an unshared sense of who we are as a nation."

No: for the last 20 years the people who disagreed with her we're ignored. That's not the same as not existing

And inasmuch as they were conscious that they were living in a country in which their views were ignored, we did have a 'shared sense of who we are as a nation', no?

The challenge is that now they think they are living in a country where they have the whip hand, although they don't. This cognitive dissonance was wound up by the likes of Gove and Johnson, and it will violently uncoil in their faces in due course.

Nah - I think they didn't really give a monkey for what those prays in London (and i include myself as one) got up to.

The liberal metropolitan mindset took that for a shared sense of nation. They smiled, and passed and paid - but ultimately forgot that the secret people might one day wake.

Your vision of a country split between the metropolis and the rural poor is equally skewed. You ignore the majority who are in neither category - a blind spot that is just as big as the mindset you believe has been overturned.

I'm not splitting between the metropolis and the rural poor. Splitting between London and the rest. (And, obviously, not 100% of people in each area buy into the respective mindset)

The divisions never really healed from the 1640s; it was always only a matter of time before they broke out again.

Before that really. There were definitelyissues with Flemmish immigrants "stealing our jobs" in the Tudor years

Questions with only two answers lead to bitterness and hatred, clearly. Suddenly it becomes obvious that the Liberals have for decades been the thin line between us and civil war.

Not true. The One Nation approach is the way forward. Leaders with the ability to understand and govern in the interests of both London and the country/small towns

There you go again. Believe it or not there are actual cities outside London.

ThreeQuidder said:

Gardenwalker said:

Ishmael_X said:

Gardenwalker said:

Roger said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Seema Malhotra's take on the post-referendum intolerance:

http://ebx.sh/2et6cjh

Interesting article. I heard of my first bit of post vote racism yesterday. An Italian friend who owns a wine bar was speaking to a representative from a brewery ordering beer. He had to answer several standard questions. His English is reasonable but not perfect and one of the questions he couldn't understand so asked for clarification.

This didn't help much and he heard the lady from the brewery presumably believing her hand was covering the phone saying to a colleague 'When are these foreigners going to be sent home?". When they resumed my friend reminded her that he might be a foreigner but he was also a customer! Flustered she said she wasn't talking about him.........

He said he's never encountered anything like that before and he's been in the UK for 4 years.

Undeniable that Brexit has given many the license to express the worst kinds of opinions.

And let us not forget Jo Cox was murdered by a Brexiting madman.

It is very poor show for Brexiters to deny this (though they are not of course responsible for it).

Not undeniable at all. "Licence" is a lazy metaphor, given that the laws against "hate speech" are more severe than at any previous time in history. It is pretty much to get an accurate metric of how this stuff varies over time and how much is differential reporting. And the bloke who murdered Jo Cox was pretty clearly that kind of bloke before the idea of a referendum ever crossed Cameron's mind.

There are always nutjobs. But as political discourse changes so does perception of what is acceptable behaviour.

Those who might have kept quiet before feel freer to express themselves. Those who expressed themselves before may find it a smaller step to commit violence.

See also how genocides start. Though I hesitate to Godwin so early in the morning.

We Tories ought to get this instinctively. It is custom, society and order that prevent our worst instincts emerging. Even if we believe humans are naturally altruistic, as I do, our dark urges are undeniable.

The fact that some nutjobs will use a policy as an excuse to show that they are nutjobs isn't a sufficient reason to not carry out that policy.

Never suggested it was.
I merely bemoan the accompanying mood music.

Ultimately the vote was won on a platform of anti-immigration. That's fine. It's time we tackled it democratically. But let us not forget or dismiss the risk of political contagion.

ThreeQuidder said:

JosiasJessop said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Jonathan, part of the blame rests with Cameron who did sod all preparatory work and prevented the Civil Service from doing anything.

I'll accept that argument against Cameron when someone shows me leave's consolidated plan for what would happen afterwards.

Oh ...

Leave wasn't and isn't the government and so was in no position to make and enforce such a plan.

You make three statements:
1) Leave wasn't and isn't the government
True.

2) so was in no position to make such a plan.
False.

3) so was in no position to enforce such a plan.
True.

We all know why they didn't make such a plan: they needed to form a broad church in order to win, and any such plan would have upset too many Brexiters and pushed moderates towards Remain.

Their lack of putting forward a coherent position means that we're in more trouble now than would have been the case otherwise: the government would have had a firmer view of the people's will.

I find their willingness to blame Cameron for this one of the sadly funny aspects of Brexit.

England cricketers sweating....

Luckily Spurs aren't playing today.

PClipp said:

Charles said:

IanB2 said:

Questions with only two answers lead to bitterness and hatred, clearly. Suddenly it becomes obvious that the Liberals have for decades been the thin line between us and civil war.

Not true. The One Nation approach is the way forward. Leaders with the ability to understand and govern in the interests of both London and the country/small towns

"One Nation" is a nice little phrase, Mr Charles. I does not have much to do with the Tory Party, who are anything but that.

LOL. Says the man whose Parliamentary party is as diverse as that of UKIP. With its one MP.

Fine if your One Nation consists of white, middle-aged men.

EU stuff from pro- EU journalists:-
Who is the Hack* writing “there’s so much poison pumped into the British psyche about the EU that it’s worth stopping for a moment to realize how incredible this is.” They referred to the “angry flecks of euro-scepticism”, described euro-sceptics as “foaming”, wrote in an especially disgusting phrase about “all this euro-sceptic pus”, while accusing the Tories of “Hunbashing, frog-thrashing xenophobia”.

David Aaronovitch, (a winner of the Orwell Prize for political journalism just like "Hack") asserts that “the anti-Europeans want to hum ‘Land of Hope and Glory’ as they nuke the British economy.”

*Hack = infamous scoundrel Johann Hari writing about the Euro.
Quotes are drawn from the Independent, of 19 March 2007, 4 June 2005, 15 April 2005, 21 April 2004 and 9 May 2003

Wrong on the Euro and wrong about Brexit.

I saw a tweet last night that Mark Reckless was the man to lead UKIP and should stand as he is untainted by much of the in-fighting.

I think that would be most entertaining.

On topic: Don't forget this bet loses if Trump wins too, so you're looking at longer odds of 11-4 for just a Hillary win part.

''Now that really is sophistry. If that were true, why has May recommitted to a drastic reduction in numbers and slapped down Hammond for suggesting students might not be counted in overall numbers?''

Well do leavers have to agree with everything Mrs May says?

Tell you what, you go on campaigning for the inalienable right of Europe's people traffickers, gang masters, violent criminals, health tourists, benefit skimmers, begging gangs etc. to keep coming here.

The resulting vaporisation at the ballot box might teach you something eventually.

Ishmael_X said:

we get the same thing after an English football defeat and we don't stop playing football.

Well, you say that...

*prepares for barrage of 'Scotland are even more shite'.*

@taffys

'I am amazed that there is so little coverage of the case in Paklistan where they are about to execute a christian woman for drinking from the same crockery as muslims.'

Hadn't heard that one, but apparently their parliament may finally be going to outlaw honor killings,but I wouldn't bet on it .

Strange the outrage from the left over Saudi Arabia but hardly a mention of the ongoing human rights abuses in another medieval country.

peter_from_putney said:

rottenborough said:

Morning all,

Dear or dear. Daily Mail illustrates a column that talks about Rolls-Royce in Derby and the aerospace industry with a photo of a rolls royce car.

That's what happens as a result of newspapers largely dispensing with their sub-editors!

Sadly true. And it will only get worse.

Gardenwalker said:

Ultimately the vote was won on a platform of anti-immigration.

No, it really wasn't. Those whose primary concern was immigration would have voted Leave regardless, because it was the ONLY route to exercise ANY control over immigration. Labour, Coalition and Conservative Govts. have been shown to be deaf to this concern for twenty years.

The vote was won on the back of people like me, for whom immigration was not the issue. My concern - and I would argue, more than 2% of the ultimate electorate - was that the EU was not consistent with my understanding of a working democratic voice for the UK. Now, if the EU had acknowledged that concern - or if Cameron had fought that corner in the "Renegotiation" - then my vote to Remain (and many like me) was still up for grabs. But instead, Remain went about insulting our intelligence and calling us names whilst they were at it.

Remain ran a shite campaign that pushed millions away. That they refuse to own their failure is very telling about them.

williamglenn said:

Charles said:

Not true. The One Nation approach is the way forward. Leaders with the ability to understand and govern in the interests of both London and the country/small towns

There you go again. Believe it or not there are actual cities outside London.

Yes, but none of them are as global - they tend to look to their hinterlands as markets. London sucks from their hinterland to act as an entrepot. The mindset of a Newcastle, for instance, is much closer to say Durham than London is to Winchester

ThreeQuidder said:

JosiasJessop said:

ThreeQuidder said:

JosiasJessop said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Jonathan, part of the blame rests with Cameron who did sod all preparatory work and prevented the Civil Service from doing anything.

I'll accept that argument against Cameron when someone shows me leave's consolidated plan for what would happen afterwards.

Oh ...

Leave wasn't and isn't the government and so was in no position to make and enforce such a plan.

You make three statements:
1) Leave wasn't and isn't the government
True.

2) so was in no position to make such a plan.
False.

3) so was in no position to enforce such a plan.
True.

We all know why they didn't make such a plan: they needed to form a broad church in order to win, and any such plan would have upset too many Brexiters and pushed moderates towards Remain.

Their lack of putting forward a coherent position means that we're in more trouble now than would have been the case otherwise: the government would have had a firmer view of the people's will.

I find their willingness to blame Cameron for this one of the sadly funny aspects of Brexit.

No, the second statement is true as well: they did not have access to the civil service to make a plan (unlike oppositions before a general election).

The most that they could have done would have been to sketch an outline of a plan, but without the backing of civil service input this would have been unhelpful as the public could have believed that it was a manifesto for immediate implementation rather than just a general outline.

Oh come on. In which case they should have shut up and not campaigned. *They* were responsible for making a case for leave. But instead of a coherent plan, they produced a mess that would appeal to as broad a base as possible. The problem now is that we now have f'all idea how to reconcile that mess with reality.

ThreeQuidder said:

TOPPING said:

ThreeQuidder said:

TOPPING said:

ThreeQuidder said:

TOPPING said:

Paul_Bedfordshire said:

Nigelb said:

IanB2 said:

Paul_Bedfordshire said:

Im beginning to recognise that there is no alternative to hard brexit. Its going to be more difficult, especially in the short term but, so be it. What we are regaining is far more precious than gold sovereigns - and if we really take a hit then the welfare state will go which in the long term is the best thing we can do for the underclass who will have to stop being like sheep and learn to think for themselves again.

Pain for other people?

I think Mr Bedfordshire is of the 'who; whom' school of politics.

I get fed up with people endlessly banging on about something after the decision has been made

Agree. Nothing irritated me more when, in 1997, the Conservatives insisted on remaining the opposition, indeed didn't disband themselves, and then tried to win another election.

That's an argument to be allowed to campaign to rejoin, which is fine, not to be allowed to frustrate the British people's democratic decision.

I'm pretty sure I've explained this to you more than once before: which bit are you finding so difficult to understand?

You have no idea what the British people's democratic decision is.

We are leaving the EU. I'm sure I've explained that to you more than once before.

The British people's democratic decision is to Leave the EU, as I've said repeatedly. (You have never needed to "explain" this to me as I have stated it explicitly.) Therefore arguing for a particular kind of Leave is not undemocratic. Nor is arguing to Rejoin after we Leave. These are analagous to a defeated government going into opposition and campaigning in the next election.

What is undemocratic is arguing that we should not Leave the EU or that our Leaving should be delayed indefinitely. That would be analagous to a defeated government trying to cling to power anyway.

Again, which part of this don't you follow?

No one or very few people (none on here) are arguing not to leave.

The statement that nobody on here is arguing that we should not Leave is untrue.

No one is arguing that we should ignore the referendum.

rottenborough said:

Morning all,

Dear or dear. Daily Mail illustrates a column that talks about Rolls-Royce in Derby and the aerospace industry with a photo of a rolls royce car.

Pretty much the symbol of the Brexit economic case. Perfect that this should be in the Mail.

''Sorry to see you reduced to such an absurd argument. ''

Yeah right an absurd argument to which you have no answer. As ever remainers cannot and will not deal with the 'quality of immigrant' argument in any shape or form whatsoever, because it is completely unanswerable.

So if you are the learning impaired guy who got his face smashed in by a violent eastern European thug, tough.

Charles said:

williamglenn said:

Charles said:

Not true. The One Nation approach is the way forward. Leaders with the ability to understand and govern in the interests of both London and the country/small towns

There you go again. Believe it or not there are actual cities outside London.

Yes, but none of them are as global - they tend to look to their hinterlands as markets. London sucks from their hinterland to act as an entrepot. The mindset of a Newcastle, for instance, is much closer to say Durham than London is to Winchester

Certainly not true of university towns, which receive a large slug of their income from overseas.

JosiasJessop said:

ThreeQuidder said:

JosiasJessop said:

ThreeQuidder said:

JosiasJessop said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Jonathan, part of the blame rests with Cameron who did sod all preparatory work and prevented the Civil Service from doing anything.

I'll accept that argument against Cameron when someone shows me leave's consolidated plan for what would happen afterwards.

Oh ...

Leave wasn't and isn't the government and so was in no position to make and enforce such a plan.

You make three statements:
1) Leave wasn't and isn't the government
True.

2) so was in no position to make such a plan.
False.

3) so was in no position to enforce such a plan.
True.

We all know why they didn't make such a plan: they needed to form a broad church in order to win, and any such plan would have upset too many Brexiters and pushed moderates towards Remain.

Their lack of putting forward a coherent position means that we're in more trouble now than would have been the case otherwise: the government would have had a firmer view of the people's will.

I find their willingness to blame Cameron for this one of the sadly funny aspects of Brexit.

No, the second statement is true as well: they did not have access to the civil service to make a plan (unlike oppositions before a general election).

The most that they could have done would have been to sketch an outline of a plan, but without the backing of civil service input this would have been unhelpful as the public could have believed that it was a manifesto for immediate implementation rather than just a general outline.

Oh come on. In which case they should have shut up and not campaigned. *They* were responsible for making a case for leave. But instead of a coherent plan, they produced a mess that would appeal to as broad a base as possible. The problem now is that we now have f'all idea how to reconcile that mess with reality.

OH look over there, pre-23rd June we have a Govt plan for what would happen if we remained and no Govt plan for LEAVE*. Person at top of Govt = Cameron. Person in charge of planning for such things = Osborne.

*Except that they did say that if we voted to LEAVE then Govt/BoE would: increase interest rates and hold an emergency budget. Niether of which the Govt/BoE did.

Alanbrooke said:

Casino_Royale said:

Alanbrooke said:

Brexit good news !

Bob Geldof says he might go back to Dublin post Brexit.

Superb.

at this rate Bono might pay more tax.

Bono is driving round Beaulieu in a black Rolls Royce..

Alanbrooke said:

Brexit good news !

Bob Geldof says he might go back to Dublin post Brexit.

Who's going to be the new conscience of the nation then?

Morrissey?

rottenborough said:

Morning all,

Dear or dear. Daily Mail illustrates a column that talks about Rolls-Royce in Derby and the aerospace industry with a photo of a rolls royce car.

Par for the course for most papers these days. All the sub editors and picture editors that check these things are long gone, in favour of single journalists self-publishing like the paper is one big blog.

taffys said:

''Sorry to see you reduced to such an absurd argument. ''

Yeah right an absurd argument to which you have no answer. As ever remainers cannot and will not deal with the 'quality of immigrant' argument in any shape or form whatsoever, because it is completely unanswerable.

So if you are the learning impaired guy who got his face smashed in by a violent eastern European thug, tough.

But you're just talking to yourself.

My case is that the referendum was won on an anti-immigration platform. Not solely. There was a bedrock of pro-sovreignty and, if you like, "control of immigration" argument. But clearly it was a fear of the very large volumes of immigration that turned it into a win.

Just ask Aaron Banks.

But instead of accepting, or even arguing against it, you start gibbering about thugs beating up mentally disabled people.

You're a perfect example of the intolerance I was mentioning unthread. You pretend it's about "better quality" immigration but when asked to justify yourself you resort to xenophobic tropes.