Not the least reason for continued bickering about what happens next is that much the same appears to being conducted, sometimes quite publicly, within the cabinet. When there's no settled policy, it seems rather otiose to argue that those who voted remain ought just to shut up.
Cabinet members ticking each other off publically, and being slapped down by the PM does indeed give the impression that there is no plan.
I have not seen any evidence that there is a plan, or that May is capable of forming one. In the absence of a plan the outcome defaults to Hard Brexit. Get used to it.
Probably best.
Why stay in an organisation that cant deliver a trade deal with the US or Canada or anywhere else for that matter.
Even the germans are now coming to realise the Brits had a point.
the Walloonies are holding them by the balls and brand EUrope is being trashed by its failure to deliver deals.
Im beginning to recognise that there is no alternative to hard brexit. Its going to be more difficult, especially in the short term but, so be it. What we are regaining is far more precious than gold sovereigns - and if we really take a hit then the welfare state will go which in the long term is the best thing we can do for the underclass who will have to stop being like sheep and learn to think for themselves again.
Pain for other people?
I think Mr Bedfordshire is of the 'who; whom' school of politics.
No, when I get fed up with people endlessly banging on about something after the decision has been made I resort to the Jeremy Beadle school of politics and say provocative things to make them jump on the saddle of their high horse so fast that they fall off the other side.
After all you are all looking for confirmation that we brexiters are all baby eating redwoodites, salivating over the prospect of a return of Workhouses?
Not the least reason for continued bickering about what happens next is that much the same appears to being conducted, sometimes quite publicly, within the cabinet. When there's no settled policy, it seems rather otiose to argue that those who voted remain ought just to shut up.
Cabinet members ticking each other off publically, and being slapped down by the PM does indeed give the impression that there is no plan.
I have not seen any evidence that there is a plan, or that May is capable of forming one. In the absence of a plan the outcome defaults to Hard Brexit. Get used to it.
Probably best.
Why stay in an organisation that cant deliver a trade deal with the US or Canada or anywhere else for that matter.
Even the germans are now coming to realise the Brits had a point.
the Walloonies are holding them by the balls and brand EUrope is being trashed by its failure to deliver deals.
Im beginning to recognise that there is no alternative to hard brexit. Its going to be more difficult, especially in the short term but, so be it. What we are regaining is far more precious than gold sovereigns - and if we really take a hit then the welfare state will go which in the long term is the best thing we can do for the underclass who will have to stop being like sheep and learn to think for themselves again.
The supposition apparently being that the welfare state is something for (1) other people and (2) the idle and able-bodied.
Still, perhaps the idle will kill and eat the old, the sick and the disabled, and the problem will take care of itself.
Interesting article. I heard of my first bit of post vote racism yesterday. An Italian friend who owns a wine bar was speaking to a representative from a brewery ordering beer. He had to answer several standard questions. His English is reasonable but not perfect and one of the questions he couldn't understand so asked for clarification.
This didn't help much and he heard the lady from the brewery presumably believing her hand was covering the phone saying to a colleague 'When are these foreigners going to be sent home?". When they resumed my friend reminded her that he might be a foreigner but he was also a customer! Flustered she said she wasn't talking about him.........
He said he's never encountered anything like that before and he's been in the UK for 4 years.
Undeniable that Brexit has given many the license to express the worst kinds of opinions.
And let us not forget Jo Cox was murdered by a Brexiting madman.
It is very poor show for Brexiters to deny this (though they are not of course responsible for it).
I denied nothing. Remainers it turns out are just as nasty. What you are doing is calling the kettle black.
It always seems to be Remainers who encounter the darkest and most lurid examples of racial abuse in our post Brexit world.
I work with many Europeans in my office, and my wife is Bulgarian and has an eclectic mix of international friends, none of whom have encountered or complained of any.
One English person sent her a private email mourning and lambasting the result in Roger-like terms. She had to respond politely pointing out she voted Leave, and why.
I have noticed that.
A great many of my friends are of various ethnicities and not a single one has mentioned post-Brexit racism.
Interesting article. I heard of my first bit of post vote racism yesterday. An Italian friend who owns a wine bar was speaking to a representative from a brewery ordering beer. He had to answer several standard questions. His English is reasonable but not perfect and one of the questions he couldn't understand so asked for clarification.
This didn't help much and he heard the lady from the brewery presumably believing her hand was covering the phone saying to a colleague 'When are these foreigners going to be sent home?". When they resumed my friend reminded her that he might be a foreigner but he was also a customer! Flustered she said she wasn't talking about him.........
He said he's never encountered anything like that before and he's been in the UK for 4 years.
Undeniable that Brexit has given many the license to express the worst kinds of opinions.
And let us not forget Jo Cox was murdered by a Brexiting madman.
It is very poor show for Brexiters to deny this (though they are not of course responsible for it).
That's a very poor show by you.
All we know is that Jo Cox was murdered by a madman. We know nothing about his reasons.
I might be wrong, but didn't he give some indication during his first court appearance?
Not the least reason for continued bickering about what happens next is that much the same appears to being conducted, sometimes quite publicly, within the cabinet. When there's no settled policy, it seems rather otiose to argue that those who voted remain ought just to shut up.
Cabinet members ticking each other off publically, and being slapped down by the PM does indeed give the impression that there is no plan.
I have not seen any evidence that there is a plan, or that May is capable of forming one. In the absence of a plan the outcome defaults to Hard Brexit. Get used to it.
Probably best.
Why stay in an organisation that cant deliver a trade deal with the US or Canada or anywhere else for that matter.
Even the germans are now coming to realise the Brits had a point.
the Walloonies are holding them by the balls and brand EUrope is being trashed by its failure to deliver deals.
Im beginning to recognise that there is no alternative to hard brexit. Its going to be more difficult, especially in the short term but, so be it. What we are regaining is far more precious than gold sovereigns - and if we really take a hit then the welfare state will go which in the long term is the best thing we can do for the underclass who will have to stop being like sheep and learn to think for themselves again.
Pain for other people?
I think Mr Bedfordshire is of the 'who; whom' school of politics.
No, when I get fed up with people endlessly banging on about something after the decision has been made I resort to the Jeremy Beadle school of politics and say provocative things to make them jump on the saddle of their high horse so fast that they fall off the other side.
After all you are all looking for confirmation that we brexiters are all baby eating redwoodites, salivating over the prospect of a return of Workhouses?
I said this last night and stand by it.
The ongoing Brexit debate could be killed stone dead by a competent government with a plan that went some way to address the concerns of those who voted Remain.
What we have now is a vacuum and zero confidence. What the government does say spooks the markets and picks at wounds.
Interesting article. I heard of my first bit of post vote racism yesterday. An Italian friend who owns a wine bar was speaking to a representative from a brewery ordering beer. He had to answer several standard questions. His English is reasonable but not perfect and one of the questions he couldn't understand so asked for clarification.
This didn't help much and he heard the lady from the brewery presumably believing her hand was covering the phone saying to a colleague 'When are these foreigners going to be sent home?". When they resumed my friend reminded her that he might be a foreigner but he was also a customer! Flustered she said she wasn't talking about him.........
He said he's never encountered anything like that before and he's been in the UK for 4 years.
Undeniable that Brexit has given many the license to express the worst kinds of opinions.
And let us not forget Jo Cox was murdered by a Brexiting madman.
It is very poor show for Brexiters to deny this (though they are not of course responsible for it).
Not undeniable at all. "Licence" is a lazy metaphor, given that the laws against "hate speech" are more severe than at any previous time in history. It is pretty much to get an accurate metric of how this stuff varies over time and how much is differential reporting. And the bloke who murdered Jo Cox was pretty clearly that kind of bloke before the idea of a referendum ever crossed Cameron's mind.
It was stated as a fact on previous thread last night by a poster that
"The non-productive won it for Leave."
Is there any proof that's the case and if so, should the UK respect the rights of theses people that have
1) Unfortunately become unemployed despite previously working and paying taxes 2) Reached pensionable age having worked hard and paid substantial taxes in their lifetime 3). Sick and in need through bad luck and circumstances having previously contributed to the country.
Alternatively, as this left wing poster suggests should the UK simply remove these voters rights and remove from the register when they find themselves in such circumstances as they seem to make the wrong decisions. ( Aka - or rather decisions that specific poster did not agree with)
Mr. Jonathan, part of the blame rests with Cameron who did sod all preparatory work and prevented the Civil Service from doing anything.
That said, a more unified front is urgent. May does have a couple of months to get things in order, but I suspect managing the personalities matters as much (for party harmony) than settling the policies.
Interesting article. I heard of my first bit of post vote racism yesterday. An Italian friend who owns a wine bar was speaking to a representative from a brewery ordering beer. He had to answer several standard questions. His English is reasonable but not perfect and one of the questions he couldn't understand so asked for clarification.
This didn't help much and he heard the lady from the brewery presumably believing her hand was covering the phone saying to a colleague 'When are these foreigners going to be sent home?". When they resumed my friend reminded her that he might be a foreigner but he was also a customer! Flustered she said she wasn't talking about him.........
He said he's never encountered anything like that before and he's been in the UK for 4 years.
Undeniable that Brexit has given many the license to express the worst kinds of opinions.
And let us not forget Jo Cox was murdered by a Brexiting madman.
It is very poor show for Brexiters to deny this (though they are not of course responsible for it).
I denied nothing. Remainers it turns out are just as nasty. What you are doing is calling the kettle black.
The mature response from Brexiters is to be against this kind of bigotry, not to deny it.
You seek to deny by citing one example of anti-Brexit hatred as if "both sides are the same". Similar to Trumps attempted character assassinations of Hillary.
But one rather bizarre case is not equivalent to the low-level antipathy if not racism experienced by many immigrants and ethnic minorities today.
Hopefully it will simmer down in due course, but one of things that makes me proudest of this country is its relative level of tolerance. I don't want to be like France (cannot disagree with Alanbrooke above). Brexit has moved the dial - even slightly - toward intolerance.
Interesting article. I heard of my first bit of post vote racism yesterday. An Italian friend who owns a wine bar was speaking to a representative from a brewery ordering beer. He had to answer several standard questions. His English is reasonable but not perfect and one of the questions he couldn't understand so asked for clarification.
This didn't help much and he heard the lady from the brewery presumably believing her hand was covering the phone saying to a colleague 'When are these foreigners going to be sent home?". When they resumed my friend reminded her that he might be a foreigner but he was also a customer! Flustered she said she wasn't talking about him.........
He said he's never encountered anything like that before and he's been in the UK for 4 years.
Undeniable that Brexit has given many the license to express the worst kinds of opinions.
And let us not forget Jo Cox was murdered by a Brexiting madman.
It is very poor show for Brexiters to deny this (though they are not of course responsible for it).
That's a very poor show by you.
All we know is that Jo Cox was murdered by a madman. We know nothing about his reasons.
I might be wrong, but didn't he give some indication during his first court appearance?
Your not saying when Mair gave his name as 'death to traitors, freedom for Britain ' he was making a political point? Surely not!
Interesting article. I heard of my first bit of post vote racism yesterday. An Italian friend who owns a wine bar was speaking to a representative from a brewery ordering beer. He had to answer several standard questions. His English is reasonable but not perfect and one of the questions he couldn't understand so asked for clarification.
This didn't help much and he heard the lady from the brewery presumably believing her hand was covering the phone saying to a colleague 'When are these foreigners going to be sent home?". When they resumed my friend reminded her that he might be a foreigner but he was also a customer! Flustered she said she wasn't talking about him.........
He said he's never encountered anything like that before and he's been in the UK for 4 years.
Undeniable that Brexit has given many the license to express the worst kinds of opinions.
And let us not forget Jo Cox was murdered by a Brexiting madman.
It is very poor show for Brexiters to deny this (though they are not of course responsible for it).
I denied nothing. Remainers it turns out are just as nasty. What you are doing is calling the kettle black.
It always seems to be Remainers who encounter the darkest and most lurid examples of racial abuse in our post Brexit world.
I work with many Europeans in my office, and my wife is Bulgarian and has an eclectic mix of international friends, none of whom have encountered or complained of any.
One English person sent her a private email mourning and lambasting the result in Roger-like terms. She had to respond politely pointing out she voted Leave, and why.
I have noticed that.
A great many of my friends are of various ethnicities and not a single one has mentioned post-Brexit racism.
So we have one group who you think are over-egging the pudding (and you seem to indicate are lying), because your experience does not match it.
Might it be your friends know your inclination towards leave, and don't mention it?
In addition, you have to be careful about your data set. In my case, most of my friends are middle class, and are probably less likely to suffer racism than (say) working class people in poorer neighbourhoods.
Amongst my group, the biggest problem with Brexit so far has not been racism, but business uncertainty.
Interesting article. I heard of my first bit of post vote racism yesterday. An Italian friend who owns a wine bar was speaking to a representative from a brewery ordering beer. He had to answer several standard questions. His English is reasonable but not perfect and one of the questions he couldn't understand so asked for clarification.
This didn't help much and he heard the lady from the brewery presumably believing her hand was covering the phone saying to a colleague 'When are these foreigners going to be sent home?". When they resumed my friend reminded her that he might be a foreigner but he was also a customer! Flustered she said she wasn't talking about him.........
He said he's never encountered anything like that before and he's been in the UK for 4 years.
Undeniable that Brexit has given many the license to express the worst kinds of opinions.
And let us not forget Jo Cox was murdered by a Brexiting madman.
It is very poor show for Brexiters to deny this (though they are not of course responsible for it).
That's a very poor show by you.
All we know is that Jo Cox was murdered by a madman. We know nothing about his reasons.
We do in fact know a bit about him.
I don't cite him to tarnish Brexit, but to cite the hatred inflamed by Brexit.
It was stated as a fact on previous thread last night by a poster that
"The non-productive won it for Leave."
Is there any proof that's the case and if so, should the UK respect the rights of theses people that have
1) Unfortunately become unemployed despite previously working and paying taxes 2) Reached pensionable age having worked hard and paid substantial taxes in their lifetime 3). Sick and in need through bad luck and circumstances having previously contributed to the country.
Alternatively, as this left wing poster suggests should the UK simply remove these voters rights and remove from the register when they find themselves in such circumstances as they seem to make the wrong decisions. ( Aka - or rather decisions that specific poster did not agree with)
Discuss.
Lol. Young people are the exception that proves the rule.
I was doing a question time session for local sixth formers (years 12/13 in newspeak) this week and one of the questions, paraphrasing only slightly, was along the lines of "since it is our future and old people are going to die soon anyway, shouldn't they not have been allowed to vote".
Interesting article. I heard of my first bit of post vote racism yesterday. An Italian friend who owns a wine bar was speaking to a representative from a brewery ordering beer. He had to answer several standard questions. His English is reasonable but not perfect and one of the questions he couldn't understand so asked for clarification.
This didn't help much and he heard the lady from the brewery presumably believing her hand was covering the phone saying to a colleague 'When are these foreigners going to be sent home?". When they resumed my friend reminded her that he might be a foreigner but he was also a customer! Flustered she said she wasn't talking about him.........
He said he's never encountered anything like that before and he's been in the UK for 4 years.
Undeniable that Brexit has given many the license to express the worst kinds of opinions.
And let us not forget Jo Cox was murdered by a Brexiting madman.
It is very poor show for Brexiters to deny this (though they are not of course responsible for it).
That's a very poor show by you.
All we know is that Jo Cox was murdered by a madman. We know nothing about his reasons.
We do in fact know a bit about him.
I don't cite him to tarnish Brexit, but to cite the hatred inflamed by Brexit.
Actually you cite to him to play guilt by association and chose to ignore the same crime inflicted the other way.
As things stand nobody knows why Mair did what he did, that's what we have courts for.
Interesting article. I heard of my first bit of post vote racism yesterday. An Italian friend who owns a wine bar was speaking to a representative from a brewery ordering beer. He had to answer several standard questions. His English is reasonable but not perfect and one of the questions he couldn't understand so asked for clarification.
This didn't help much and he heard the lady from the brewery presumably believing her hand was covering the phone saying to a colleague 'When are these foreigners going to be sent home?". When they resumed my friend reminded her that he might be a foreigner but he was also a customer! Flustered she said she wasn't talking about him.........
He said he's never encountered anything like that before and he's been in the UK for 4 years.
Undeniable that Brexit has given many the license to express the worst kinds of opinions.
And let us not forget Jo Cox was murdered by a Brexiting madman.
It is very poor show for Brexiters to deny this (though they are not of course responsible for it).
I denied nothing. Remainers it turns out are just as nasty. What you are doing is calling the kettle black.
The mature response from Brexiters is to be against this kind of bigotry, not to deny it.
You seek to deny by citing one example of anti-Brexit hatred as if "both sides are the same". Similar to Trumps attempted character assassinations of Hillary.
But one rather bizarre case is not equivalent to the low-level antipathy if not racism experienced by many immigrants and ethnic minorities today.
Hopefully it will simmer down in due course, but one of things that makes me proudest of this country is its relative level of tolerance. I don't want to be like France (cannot disagree with Alanbrooke above). Brexit has moved the dial - even slightly - toward intolerance.
I'm not convinced. Whether or not a crime gets treated as a Hate Crime (an absurd term in itself) is very subjective.
I don't doubt that racial animosity exists in the UK. I don't believe that Brexit has intensified it.
Interesting article. I heard of my first bit of post vote racism yesterday. An Italian friend who owns a wine bar was speaking to a representative from a brewery ordering beer. He had to answer several standard questions. His English is reasonable but not perfect and one of the questions he couldn't understand so asked for clarification.
This didn't help much and he heard the lady from the brewery presumably believing her hand was covering the phone saying to a colleague 'When are these foreigners going to be sent home?". When they resumed my friend reminded her that he might be a foreigner but he was also a customer! Flustered she said she wasn't talking about him.........
He said he's never encountered anything like that before and he's been in the UK for 4 years.
Undeniable that Brexit has given many the license to express the worst kinds of opinions.
And let us not forget Jo Cox was murdered by a Brexiting madman.
It is very poor show for Brexiters to deny this (though they are not of course responsible for it).
I denied nothing. Remainers it turns out are just as nasty. What you are doing is calling the kettle black.
The mature response from Brexiters is to be against this kind of bigotry, not to deny it.
That "challenge to virtue signal" gambit is really dull. I think you can take it as read that anyone posting here (and not recently having had their posting rights revoked) thinks that "this kind of bigotry" is so disgusting that express condemnation is unnecessary.
And anyone who is vile now was vile before 23 June this year. I am prepared to believe that there has been some level of blip in overt racism since 23 June, though the evidence isn't overwhelming, but we get the same thing after an English football defeat and we don't stop playing football.
Interesting article. I heard of my first bit of post vote racism yesterday. An Italian friend who owns a wine bar was speaking to a representative from a brewery ordering beer. He had to answer several standard questions. His English is reasonable but not perfect and one of the questions he couldn't understand so asked for clarification.
This didn't help much and he heard the lady from the brewery presumably believing her hand was covering the phone saying to a colleague 'When are these foreigners going to be sent home?". When they resumed my friend reminded her that he might be a foreigner but he was also a customer! Flustered she said she wasn't talking about him.........
He said he's never encountered anything like that before and he's been in the UK for 4 years.
Undeniable that Brexit has given many the license to express the worst kinds of opinions.
And let us not forget Jo Cox was murdered by a Brexiting madman.
It is very poor show for Brexiters to deny this (though they are not of course responsible for it).
Not undeniable at all. "Licence" is a lazy metaphor, given that the laws against "hate speech" are more severe than at any previous time in history. It is pretty much to get an accurate metric of how this stuff varies over time and how much is differential reporting. And the bloke who murdered Jo Cox was pretty clearly that kind of bloke before the idea of a referendum ever crossed Cameron's mind.
There are always nutjobs. But as political discourse changes so does perception of what is acceptable behaviour.
Those who might have kept quiet before feel freer to express themselves. Those who expressed themselves before may find it a smaller step to commit violence.
See also how genocides start. Though I hesitate to Godwin so early in the morning.
We Tories ought to get this instinctively. It is custom, society and order that prevent our worst instincts emerging. Even if we believe humans are naturally altruistic, as I do, our dark urges are undeniable.
I'm not convinced. Whether or not a crime gets treated as a Hate Crime (an absurd term in itself) is very subjective.
I don't doubt that racial animosity exists in the UK. I don't believe that Brexit has intensified it.
Have we not seen an equal or even greater animosity emerging in France, Germany, NL, Sweden, etc? This overlaps with the refugee crisis, Cologne railway station, Paris attacks and the like. What we generally describe as racial tensions or hate crimes are for the most part religious in nature not racial. Yes - that unmentionable religion of peace whose bearded children we are bringing in.
Interesting article. I heard of my first bit of post vote racism yesterday. An Italian friend who owns a wine bar was speaking to a representative from a brewery ordering beer. He had to answer several standard questions. His English is reasonable but not perfect and one of the questions he couldn't understand so asked for clarification.
This didn't help much and he heard the lady from the brewery presumably believing her hand was covering the phone saying to a colleague 'When are these foreigners going to be sent home?". When they resumed my friend reminded her that he might be a foreigner but he was also a customer! Flustered she said she wasn't talking about him.........
He said he's never encountered anything like that before and he's been in the UK for 4 years.
Undeniable that Brexit has given many the license to express the worst kinds of opinions.
And let us not forget Jo Cox was murdered by a Brexiting madman.
It is very poor show for Brexiters to deny this (though they are not of course responsible for it).
I denied nothing. Remainers it turns out are just as nasty. What you are doing is calling the kettle black.
The mature response from Brexiters is to be against this kind of bigotry, not to deny it.
That "challenge to virtue signal" gambit is really dull. I think you can take it as read that anyone posting here (and not recently having had their posting rights revoked) thinks that "this kind of bigotry" is so disgusting that express condemnation is unnecessary. And anyone who is vile now was vile before 23 June this year. I am prepared to believe that there has been some level of blip in overt racism since 23 June, though the evidence isn't overwhelming, but we get the same thing after an English football defeat and we don't stop playing football.
Agreed. Also those anti-semite REMAINer representatives in the Labour party and the Lib Dem party were there before 23rd June spouting their venom and carry on doing it.
Interesting article. I heard of my first bit of post vote racism yesterday. An Italian friend who owns a wine bar was speaking to a representative from a brewery ordering beer. He had to answer several standard questions. His English is reasonable but not perfect and one of the questions he couldn't understand so asked for clarification.
This didn't help much and he heard the lady from the brewery presumably believing her hand was covering the phone saying to a colleague 'When are these foreigners going to be sent home?". When they resumed my friend reminded her that he might be a foreigner but he was also a customer! Flustered she said she wasn't talking about him.........
He said he's never encountered anything like that before and he's been in the UK for 4 years.
Undeniable that Brexit has given many the license to express the worst kinds of opinions.
And let us not forget Jo Cox was murdered by a Brexiting madman.
It is very poor show for Brexiters to deny this (though they are not of course responsible for it).
That's a very poor show by you.
All we know is that Jo Cox was murdered by a madman. We know nothing about his reasons.
Er, I think it's pretty clear he wasn't a liberal lefty looking to extend human rights to quinoa.
Nutters often grab on to the issue du hour. We can't conclude on his real beliefs or motives (if any sane).
I denied nothing. Remainers it turns out are just as nasty. What you are doing is calling the kettle black.
The mature response from Brexiters is to be against this kind of bigotry, not to deny it.
That "challenge to virtue signal" gambit is really dull. I think you can take it as read that anyone posting here (and not recently having had their posting rights revoked) thinks that "this kind of bigotry" is so disgusting that express condemnation is unnecessary.
And anyone who is vile now was vile before 23 June this year. I am prepared to believe that there has been some level of blip in overt racism since 23 June, though the evidence isn't overwhelming, but we get the same thing after an English football defeat and we don't stop playing football.
Perhaps the Mair thing is clouding the argument.
What I see a lot on here is people dismissing reports of increased intolerance - like the relatively trivial one Roger related - as:
Fictitious / statistically dubious "Not my experience" Other countries are still worse
Now undoubtedly the Guardian and others will leap on any story that they can use to paint Brexit as intolerance writ large. It's natural to bridle at that and to try to refute the overall case
The sheer weight of anecdote about how immigrants are feeling post vote is difficult to dismiss. And I don't think it speaks well of Brexiters to dismiss it.
Edit: as I think Patrick notes above, the exact same phenomenon is seen in the modern Labour party under Corbyn with regards to anti-semitism. I believe the new terms is "hand waving"
'MEP Mario Borghezio set the ball rolling in May by claiming that [black minister] Kyenge would impose "tribal conditions" on Italy and help form a "bongo-bongo" administration. Africans, he added for good measure, had "not produced great genes".'
'According to the Corriere della Sera, which reported the event, [former minister] added: "I love animals – bears and wolves, as is known – but when I see the pictures of Kyenge I cannot but think of the features of an orangutan, even if I'm not saying she is one."'
Let us pray that Itexit never happens. Italy might develop a serious racism problem if it did.
That's one of the unfortunate features of Brexit trashing brand UK. The Italians have always been known to have problems with racism but the UK- despite UKIP Farage The Sun football hooligans and umpteen other examples-have always been seen as a nation of tolerance
"In my 20 years of political activism, I cannot remember a time when we had such an unshared sense of who we are as a nation."
No: for the last 20 years the people who disagreed with her we're ignored. That's not the same as not existing
And inasmuch as they were conscious that they were living in a country in which their views were ignored, we did have a 'shared sense of who we are as a nation', no?
The challenge is that now they think they are living in a country where they have the whip hand, although they don't. This cognitive dissonance was wound up by the likes of Gove and Johnson, and it will violently uncoil in their faces in due course.
Nah - I think they didn't really give a monkey for what those prays in London (and i include myself as one) got up to.
The liberal metropolitan mindset took that for a shared sense of nation. They smiled, and passed and paid - but ultimately forgot that the secret people might one day wake.
Your vision of a country split between the metropolis and the rural poor is equally skewed. You ignore the majority who are in neither category - a blind spot that is just as big as the mindset you believe has been overturned.
I'm not splitting between the metropolis and the rural poor. Splitting between London and the rest. (And, obviously, not 100% of people in each area buy into the respective mindset)
The divisions never really healed from the 1640s; it was always only a matter of time before they broke out again.
Before that really. There were definitelyissues with Flemmish immigrants "stealing our jobs" in the Tudor years
Questions with only two answers lead to bitterness and hatred, clearly. Suddenly it becomes obvious that the Liberals have for decades been the thin line between us and civil war.
Not true. The One Nation approach is the way forward. Leaders with the ability to understand and govern in the interests of both London and the country/small towns
Interesting article. I heard of my first bit of post vote racism yesterday. An Italian friend who owns a wine bar was speaking to a representative from a brewery ordering beer. He had to answer several standard questions. His English is reasonable but not perfect and one of the questions he couldn't understand so asked for clarification.
This didn't help much and he heard the lady from the brewery presumably believing her hand was covering the phone saying to a colleague 'When are these foreigners going to be sent home?". When they resumed my friend reminded her that he might be a foreigner but he was also a customer! Flustered she said she wasn't talking about him.........
He said he's never encountered anything like that before and he's been in the UK for 4 years.
Undeniable that Brexit has given many the license to express the worst kinds of opinions.
And let us not forget Jo Cox was murdered by a Brexiting madman.
It is very poor show for Brexiters to deny this (though they are not of course responsible for it).
That's a very poor show by you.
All we know is that Jo Cox was murdered by a madman. We know nothing about his reasons.
I might be wrong, but didn't he give some indication during his first court appearance?
I think he shouted something that could be construed as such (don't recall if Brexit related or just generic far right nonsense). But if he's a butter - as most seem to agree - then we can't definitively conclude that was the real driving factor
Not the least reason for continued bickering about what happens next is that much the same appears to being conducted, sometimes quite publicly, within the cabinet. When there's no settled policy, it seems rather otiose to argue that those who voted remain ought just to shut up.
Cabinet members ticking each other off publically, and being slapped down by the PM does indeed give the impression that there is no plan.
I have not seen any evidence that there is a plan, or that May is capable of forming one. In the absence of a plan the outcome defaults to Hard Brexit. Get used to it.
Probably best.
Why stay in an organisation that cant deliver a trade deal with the US or Canada or anywhere else for that matter.
Even the germans are now coming to realise the Brits had a point.
the Walloonies are holding them by the balls and brand EUrope is being trashed by its failure to deliver deals.
Im beginning to recognise that there is no alternative to hard brexit. Its going to be more difficult, especially in the short term but, so be it. What we are regaining is far more precious than gold sovereigns - and if we really take a hit then the welfare state will go which in the long term is the best thing we can do for the underclass who will have to stop being like sheep and learn to think for themselves again.
Pain for other people?
I think Mr Bedfordshire is of the 'who; whom' school of politics.
I get fed up with people endlessly banging on about something after the decision has been made
Agree. Nothing irritated me more when, in 1997, the Conservatives insisted on remaining the opposition, indeed didn't disband themselves, and then tried to win another election.
Interesting article. I heard of my first bit of post vote racism yesterday. An Italian friend who owns a wine bar was speaking to a representative from a brewery ordering beer. He had to answer several standard questions. His English is reasonable but not perfect and one of the questions he couldn't understand so asked for clarification.
This didn't help much and he heard the lady from the brewery presumably believing her hand was covering the phone saying to a colleague 'When are these foreigners going to be sent home?". When they resumed my friend reminded her that he might be a foreigner but he was also a customer! Flustered she said she wasn't talking about him.........
He said he's never encountered anything like that before and he's been in the UK for 4 years.
Undeniable that Brexit has given many the license to express the worst kinds of opinions.
And let us not forget Jo Cox was murdered by a Brexiting madman.
It is very poor show for Brexiters to deny this (though they are not of course responsible for it).
That's a very poor show by you.
All we know is that Jo Cox was murdered by a madman. We know nothing about his reasons.
Er, I think it's pretty clear he wasn't a liberal lefty looking to extend human rights to quinoa.
Nutters often grab on to the issue du hour. We can't conclude on his real beliefs or motives (if any sane).
''Yes - that unmentionable religion of peace whose bearded children we are bringing in.''
I am amazed that there is so little coverage of the case in Paklistan where they are about to execute a christian woman for drinking from the same crockery as muslims.
Why do we even have diplomatic relations with such a country? Why do we accept a single immigrant from that country? why do we even allow them an embassy? why don;t we have economic sanctions against them? Why do we have sporting contests with them?
I'll accept that argument against Cameron when someone shows me leave's consolidated plan for what would happen afterwards.
Oh ...
As ever with the Brexiteer's, it was/is someone else's fault/problem
Because the inhabitants of Remainia are really accepting of the notion that they've alienated the majority of Britain from, to borrow a phrase, their unpopular little European hobby horse.
Interesting article. I heard of my first bit of post vote racism yesterday. An Italian friend who owns a wine bar was speaking to a representative from a brewery ordering beer. He had to answer several standard questions. His English is reasonable but not perfect and one of the questions he couldn't understand so asked for clarification.
This didn't help much and he heard the lady from the brewery presumably believing her hand was covering the phone saying to a colleague 'When are these foreigners going to be sent home?". When they resumed my friend reminded her that he might be a foreigner but he was also a customer! Flustered she said she wasn't talking about him.........
He said he's never encountered anything like that before and he's been in the UK for 4 years.
Undeniable that Brexit has given many the license to express the worst kinds of opinions.
And let us not forget Jo Cox was murdered by a Brexiting madman.
It is very poor show for Brexiters to deny this (though they are not of course responsible for it).
Not undeniable at all. "Licence" is a lazy metaphor, given that the laws against "hate speech" are more severe than at any previous time in history. It is pretty much to get an accurate metric of how this stuff varies over time and how much is differential reporting. And the bloke who murdered Jo Cox was pretty clearly that kind of bloke before the idea of a referendum ever crossed Cameron's mind.
There are always nutjobs. But as political discourse changes so does perception of what is acceptable behaviour.
Those who might have kept quiet before feel freer to express themselves. Those who expressed themselves before may find it a smaller step to commit violence.
See also how genocides start. Though I hesitate to Godwin so early in the morning.
We Tories ought to get this instinctively. It is custom, society and order that prevent our worst instincts emerging. Even if we believe humans are naturally altruistic, as I do, our dark urges are undeniable.
The fact that some nutjobs will use a policy as an excuse to show that they are nutjobs isn't a sufficient reason to not carry out that policy.
Interesting article. I heard of my first bit of post vote racism yesterday. An Italian friend who owns a wine bar was speaking to a representative from a brewery ordering beer. He had to answer several standard questions. His English is reasonable but not perfect and one of the questions he couldn't understand so asked for clarification.
This didn't help much and he heard the lady from the brewery presumably believing her hand was covering the phone saying to a colleague 'When are these foreigners going to be sent home?". When they resumed my friend reminded her that he might be a foreigner but he was also a customer! Flustered she said she wasn't talking about him.........
He said he's never encountered anything like that before and he's been in the UK for 4 years.
Undeniable that Brexit has given many the license to express the worst kinds of opinions.
And let us not forget Jo Cox was murdered by a Brexiting madman.
It is very poor show for Brexiters to deny this (though they are not of course responsible for it).
That's a very poor show by you.
All we know is that Jo Cox was murdered by a madman. We know nothing about his reasons.
Er, I think it's pretty clear he wasn't a liberal lefty looking to extend human rights to quinoa.
Nutters often grab on to the issue du hour. We can't conclude on his real beliefs or motives (if any sane).
Plus there is the tendency to make it a binary issue. Either a nutter, or ideologically motivated (cf Islamic terrorism).
Interesting article. I heard of my first bit of post vote racism yesterday. An Italian friend who owns a wine bar was speaking to a representative from a brewery ordering beer. He had to answer several standard questions. His English is reasonable but not perfect and one of the questions he couldn't understand so asked for clarification.
This didn't help much and he heard the lady from the brewery presumably believing her hand was covering the phone saying to a colleague 'When are these foreigners going to be sent home?". When they resumed my friend reminded her that he might be a foreigner but he was also a customer! Flustered she said she wasn't talking about him.........
He said he's never encountered anything like that before and he's been in the UK for 4 years.
Undeniable that Brexit has given many the license to express the worst kinds of opinions.
And let us not forget Jo Cox was murdered by a Brexiting madman.
It is very poor show for Brexiters to deny this (though they are not of course responsible for it).
That's a very poor show by you.
All we know is that Jo Cox was murdered by a madman. We know nothing about his reasons.
I might be wrong, but didn't he give some indication during his first court appearance?
I think he shouted something that could be construed as such (don't recall if Brexit related or just generic far right nonsense). But if he's a butter - as most seem to agree - then we can't definitively conclude that was the real driving factor
These things do not occur in a vacuum. It's perverse to suggest that the mood music of the debate - prevailingly anti-immigrant - would have had no influence.
This is the problem with people who suggest that Brexit has caused no increase in hate crime by arguing against every incident.
Questions with only two answers lead to bitterness and hatred, clearly. Suddenly it becomes obvious that the Liberals have for decades been the thin line between us and civil war.
Not true. The One Nation approach is the way forward. Leaders with the ability to understand and govern in the interests of both London and the country/small towns
"One Nation" is a nice little phrase, Mr Charles. I does not have much to do with the Tory Party, who are anything but that.
I don`t think the divide is between London and the country though. It is between the disgustingly wealthy and privileged and rest of us.
Again there are double standards from the left here. Jo Cox's murderer was responding to the Brexit Zeitgeist. But muslim nut jobs stabbing people in broad daylight are 'acting alone, nothing to do with islam'.
Not the least reason for continued bickering about what happens next is that much the same appears to being conducted, sometimes quite publicly, within the cabinet. When there's no settled policy, it seems rather otiose to argue that those who voted remain ought just to shut up.
Cabinet members ticking each other off publically, and being slapped down by the PM does indeed give the impression that there is no plan.
I have not seen any evidence that there is a plan, or that May is capable of forming one. In the absence of a plan the outcome defaults to Hard Brexit. Get used to it.
Probably best.
Why stay in an organisation that cant deliver a trade deal with the US or Canada or anywhere else for that matter.
Even the germans are now coming to realise the Brits had a point.
the Walloonies are holding them by the balls and brand EUrope is being trashed by its failure to deliver deals.
Im beginning to recognise that there is no alternative to hard brexit. Its going to be more difficult, especially in the short term but, so be it. What we are regaining is far more precious than gold sovereigns - and if we really take a hit then the welfare state will go which in the long term is the best thing we can do for the underclass who will have to stop being like sheep and learn to think for themselves again.
Pain for other people?
I think Mr Bedfordshire is of the 'who; whom' school of politics.
I get fed up with people endlessly banging on about something after the decision has been made
Agree. Nothing irritated me more when, in 1997, the Conservatives insisted on remaining the opposition, indeed didn't disband themselves, and then tried to win another election.
That's an argument to be allowed to campaign to rejoin, which is fine, not to be allowed to frustrate the British people's democratic decision.
I'm pretty sure I've explained this to you more than once before: which bit are you finding so difficult to understand?
Mr. Jonathan, part of the blame rests with Cameron who did sod all preparatory work and prevented the Civil Service from doing anything.
I'll accept that argument against Cameron when someone shows me leave's consolidated plan for what would happen afterwards. Oh ...
Were the LEAVE campaigners in charge of any civil servants with the right to direct them to do such work?
JJ You really keep on trying to fight against Brexit, get over it, move on please.
LOL.
If you read my posts (I accept it sadly seems a hard task for some leavers) then you will see I have accepted Brexit. In fact, I've given some good (*) arguments for a quick Brexit, even if that means hard Brexit. I do not favour another referendum, and have never argued for one.
I'm not quite sure how that makes you think I'm fighting against Brexit.
But that doesn't mean that I can't point out when I think people are wrong. Even when they're leavers.
"In my 20 years of political activism, I cannot remember a time when we had such an unshared sense of who we are as a nation."
No: for the last 20 years the people who disagreed with her we're ignored. That's not the same as not existing
And inasmuch as they were conscious that they were living in a country in which their views were ignored, we did have a 'shared sense of who we are as a nation', no?
The challenge is that now they think they are living in a country where they have the whip hand, although they don't. This cognitive dissonance was wound up by the likes of Gove and Johnson, and it will violently uncoil in their faces in due course.
Nah - I think they didn't really give a monkey for what those prays in London (and i include myself as one) got up to.
The liberal metropolitan mindset took that for a shared sense of nation. They smiled, and passed and paid - but ultimately forgot that the secret people might one day wake.
Your vision of a country split between the metropolis and the rural poor is equally skewed. You ignore the majority who are in neither category - a blind spot that is just as big as the mindset you believe has been overturned.
I'm not splitting between the metropolis and the rural poor. Splitting between London and the rest. (And, obviously, not 100% of people in each area buy into the respective mindset)
The divisions never really healed from the 1640s; it was always only a matter of time before they broke out again.
Before that really. There were definitelyissues with Flemmish immigrants "stealing our jobs" in the Tudor years
Questions with only two answers lead to bitterness and hatred, clearly. Suddenly it becomes obvious that the Liberals have for decades been the thin line between us and civil war.
Not true. The One Nation approach is the way forward. Leaders with the ability to understand and govern in the interests of both London and the country/small towns
There you go again. Believe it or not there are actual cities outside London.
''These things do not occur in a vacuum. It's perverse to suggest that the mood music of the debate - prevailingly anti-immigrant - would have had no influence.''
There seems to be a default assumption amongst remainers that anybody that wants to control immigration is a de facto racist. That is quite absurd.
Interesting article. I heard of my first bit of post vote racism yesterday. An Italian friend who owns a wine bar was speaking to a representative from a brewery ordering beer. He had to answer several standard questions. His English is reasonable but not perfect and one of the questions he couldn't understand so asked for clarification.
This didn't help much and he heard the lady from the brewery presumably believing her hand was covering the phone saying to a colleague 'When are these foreigners going to be sent home?". When they resumed my friend reminded her that he might be a foreigner but he was also a customer! Flustered she said she wasn't talking about him.........
He said he's never encountered anything like that before and he's been in the UK for 4 years.
Undeniable that Brexit has given many the license to express the worst kinds of opinions.
And let us not forget Jo Cox was murdered by a Brexiting madman.
It is very poor show for Brexiters to deny this (though they are not of course responsible for it).
Not undeniable at all. "Licence" is a lazy metaphor, given that the laws against "hate speech" are more severe than at any previous time in history. It is pretty much to get an accurate metric of how this stuff varies over time and how much is differential reporting. And the bloke who murdered Jo Cox was pretty clearly that kind of bloke before the idea of a referendum ever crossed Cameron's mind.
There are always nutjobs. But as political discourse changes so does perception of what is acceptable behaviour.
Those who might have kept quiet before feel freer to express themselves. Those who expressed themselves before may find it a smaller step to commit violence.
See also how genocides start. Though I hesitate to Godwin so early in the morning.
We Tories ought to get this instinctively. It is custom, society and order that prevent our worst instincts emerging. Even if we believe humans are naturally altruistic, as I do, our dark urges are undeniable.
The fact that some nutjobs will use a policy as an excuse to show that they are nutjobs isn't a sufficient reason to not carry out that policy.
Never suggested it was. I merely bemoan the accompanying mood music.
Ultimately the vote was won on a platform of anti-immigration. That's fine. It's time we tackled it democratically. But let us not forget or dismiss the risk of political contagion.
Not the least reason for continued bickering about what happens next is that much the same appears to being conducted, sometimes quite publicly, within the cabinet. When there's no settled policy, it seems rather otiose to argue that those who voted remain ought just to shut up.
Cabinet members ticking each other off publically, and being slapped down by the PM does indeed give the impression that there is no plan.
I have not seen any evidence that there is a plan, or that May is capable of forming one. In the absence of a plan the outcome defaults to Hard Brexit. Get used to it.
Probably best.
Why stay in an organisation that cant deliver a trade deal with the US or Canada or anywhere else for that matter.
Even the germans are now coming to realise the Brits had a point.
the Walloonies are holding them by the balls and brand EUrope is being trashed by its failure to deliver deals.
Im beginning to recognise that there is no alternative to hard brexit. Its going to be more difficult, especially in the short term but, so be it. What we are regaining is far more precious than gold sovereigns - and if we really take a hit then the welfare state will go which in the long term is the best thing we can do for the underclass who will have to stop being like sheep and learn to think for themselves again.
Pain for other people?
I think Mr Bedfordshire is of the 'who; whom' school of politics.
I get fed up with people endlessly banging on about something after the decision has been made
Agree. Nothing irritated me more when, in 1997, the Conservatives insisted on remaining the opposition, indeed didn't disband themselves, and then tried to win another election.
That's an argument to be allowed to campaign to rejoin, which is fine, not to be allowed to frustrate the British people's democratic decision.
I'm pretty sure I've explained this to you more than once before: which bit are you finding so difficult to understand?
You have no idea what the British people's democratic decision is.
We are leaving the EU. I'm sure I've explained that to you more than once before.
Mr. Jonathan, part of the blame rests with Cameron who did sod all preparatory work and prevented the Civil Service from doing anything.
I'll accept that argument against Cameron when someone shows me leave's consolidated plan for what would happen afterwards.
Oh ...
Leave wasn't and isn't the government and so was in no position to make and enforce such a plan.
You make three statements: 1) Leave wasn't and isn't the government True.
2) so was in no position to make such a plan. False.
3) so was in no position to enforce such a plan. True.
We all know why they didn't make such a plan: they needed to form a broad church in order to win, and any such plan would have upset too many Brexiters and pushed moderates towards Remain.
Their lack of putting forward a coherent position means that we're in more trouble now than would have been the case otherwise: the government would have had a firmer view of the people's will.
I find their willingness to blame Cameron for this one of the sadly funny aspects of Brexit.
''These things do not occur in a vacuum. It's perverse to suggest that the mood music of the debate - prevailingly anti-immigrant - would have had no influence.''
There seems to be a default assumption amongst remainers that anybody that wants to control immigration is a de facto racist. That is quite absurd.
Since that was my quote, I suggest you read my posts below to see my view. It is not the one you suggest.
''Ultimately the vote was won on a platform of anti-immigration. ''
That really is not true. It was won on a platform of controlling immigration. We will still get plenty of immigration hopefully. It will just be of a better and more consistent quality.
Questions with only two answers lead to bitterness and hatred, clearly. Suddenly it becomes obvious that the Liberals have for decades been the thin line between us and civil war.
Not true. The One Nation approach is the way forward. Leaders with the ability to understand and govern in the interests of both London and the country/small towns
"One Nation" is a nice little phrase, Mr Charles. I does not have much to do with the Tory Party, who are anything but that.
LOL. Says the man whose Parliamentary party is as diverse as that of UKIP. With its one MP.
Fine if your One Nation consists of white, middle-aged men.
''Ultimately the vote was won on a platform of anti-immigration. ''
That really is not true. It was won on a platform of controlling immigration. We will still get plenty of immigration hopefully. It will just be of a better and more consistent quality.
Now that really is sophistry. If that were true, why has May recommitted to a drastic reduction in numbers and slapped down Hammond for suggesting students might not be counted in overall numbers?
EU stuff from pro- EU journalists:- Who is the Hack* writing “there’s so much poison pumped into the British psyche about the EU that it’s worth stopping for a moment to realize how incredible this is.” They referred to the “angry flecks of euro-scepticism”, described euro-sceptics as “foaming”, wrote in an especially disgusting phrase about “all this euro-sceptic pus”, while accusing the Tories of “Hunbashing, frog-thrashing xenophobia”.
David Aaronovitch, (a winner of the Orwell Prize for political journalism just like "Hack") asserts that “the anti-Europeans want to hum ‘Land of Hope and Glory’ as they nuke the British economy.”
*Hack = infamous scoundrel Johann Hari writing about the Euro. Quotes are drawn from the Independent, of 19 March 2007, 4 June 2005, 15 April 2005, 21 April 2004 and 9 May 2003
the Walloonies are holding them by the balls and brand EUrope is being trashed by its failure to deliver deals.
Im beginning to recognise that there is no alternative to hard brexit. Its going to be more difficult, especially in the short term but, so be it. What we are regaining is far more precious than gold sovereigns - and if we really take a hit then the welfare state will go which in the long term is the best thing we can do for the underclass who will have to stop being like sheep and learn to think for themselves again.
Pain for other people?
I think Mr Bedfordshire is of the 'who; whom' school of politics.
I get fed up with people endlessly banging on about something after the decision has been made
Agree. Nothing irritated me more when, in 1997, the Conservatives insisted on remaining the opposition, indeed didn't disband themselves, and then tried to win another election.
That's an argument to be allowed to campaign to rejoin, which is fine, not to be allowed to frustrate the British people's democratic decision.
I'm pretty sure I've explained this to you more than once before: which bit are you finding so difficult to understand?
You have no idea what the British people's democratic decision is.
We are leaving the EU. I'm sure I've explained that to you more than once before.
The British people's democratic decision is to Leave the EU, as I've said repeatedly. (You have never needed to "explain" this to me as I have stated it explicitly.) Therefore arguing for a particular kind of Leave is not undemocratic. Nor is arguing to Rejoin after we Leave. These are analagous to a defeated government going into opposition and campaigning in the next election.
What is undemocratic is arguing that we should not Leave the EU or that our Leaving should be delayed indefinitely. That would be analagous to a defeated government trying to cling to power anyway.
the Walloonies are holding them by the balls and brand EUrope is being trashed by its failure to deliver deals.
Im beginning to recognise that there is no alternative to hard brexit. Its going to be more difficult, especially in the short term but, so be it. What we are regaining is far more precious than gold sovereigns - and if we really take a hit then the welfare state will go which in the long term is the best thing we can do for the underclass who will have to stop being like sheep and learn to think for themselves again.
Pain for other people?
I think Mr Bedfordshire is of the 'who; whom' school of politics.
I get fed up with people endlessly banging on about something after the decision has been made
Agree. Nothing irritated me more when, in 1997, the Conservatives insisted on remaining the opposition, indeed didn't disband themselves, and then tried to win another election.
That's an argument to be allowed to campaign to rejoin, which is fine, not to be allowed to frustrate the British people's democratic decision.
I'm pretty sure I've explained this to you more than once before: which bit are you finding so difficult to understand?
You have no idea what the British people's democratic decision is.
We are leaving the EU. I'm sure I've explained that to you more than once before.
The British people's democratic decision is to Leave the EU, as I've said repeatedly. (You have never needed to "explain" this to me as I have stated it explicitly.) Therefore arguing for a particular kind of Leave is not undemocratic. Nor is arguing to Rejoin after we Leave. These are analagous to a defeated government going into opposition and campaigning in the next election.
What is undemocratic is arguing that we should not Leave the EU or that our Leaving should be delayed indefinitely. That would be analagous to a defeated government trying to cling to power anyway.
Again, which part of this don't you follow?
No one or very few people (none on here) are arguing not to leave.
Mr. Jonathan, part of the blame rests with Cameron who did sod all preparatory work and prevented the Civil Service from doing anything.
I'll accept that argument against Cameron when someone shows me leave's consolidated plan for what would happen afterwards.
Oh ...
Leave wasn't and isn't the government and so was in no position to make and enforce such a plan.
You make three statements: 1) Leave wasn't and isn't the government True.
2) so was in no position to make such a plan. False.
3) so was in no position to enforce such a plan. True.
We all know why they didn't make such a plan: they needed to form a broad church in order to win, and any such plan would have upset too many Brexiters and pushed moderates towards Remain.
Their lack of putting forward a coherent position means that we're in more trouble now than would have been the case otherwise: the government would have had a firmer view of the people's will.
I find their willingness to blame Cameron for this one of the sadly funny aspects of Brexit.
No, the second statement is true as well: they did not have access to the civil service to make a plan (unlike oppositions before a general election).
The most that they could have done would have been to sketch an outline of a plan, but without the backing of civil service input this would have been unhelpful as the public could have believed that it was a manifesto for immediate implementation rather than just a general outline.
Interesting article. I heard of my first bit of post vote racism yesterday. An Italian friend who owns a wine bar was speaking to a representative from a brewery ordering beer. He had to answer several standard questions. His English is reasonable but not perfect and one of the questions he couldn't understand so asked for clarification.
This didn't help much and he heard the lady from the brewery presumably believing her hand was covering the phone saying to a colleague 'When are these foreigners going to be sent home?". When they resumed my friend reminded her that he might be a foreigner but he was also a customer! Flustered she said she wasn't talking about him.........
He said he's never encountered anything like that before and he's been in the UK for 4 years.
Undeniable that Brexit has given many the license to express the worst kinds of opinions.
And let us not forget Jo Cox was murdered by a Brexiting madman.
It is very poor show for Brexiters to deny this (though they are not of course responsible for it).
That's a very poor show by you.
All we know is that Jo Cox was murdered by a madman. We know nothing about his reasons.
Er, I think it's pretty clear he wasn't a liberal lefty looking to extend human rights to quinoa.
Nutters often grab on to the issue du hour. We can't conclude on his real beliefs or motives (if any sane).
''Now that really is sophistry. If that were true, why has May recommitted to a drastic reduction in numbers and slapped down Hammond for suggesting students might not be counted in overall numbers?''
Well do leavers have to agree with everything Mrs May says?
Tell you what, you go on campaigning for the inalienable right of Europe's people traffickers, gang masters, violent criminals, health tourists, benefit skimmers, begging gangs etc. to keep coming here.
The resulting vaporisation at the ballot box might teach you something eventually.
Im beginning to recognise that there is no alternative to hard brexit. Its going to be more difficult, especially in the short term but, so be it. What we are regaining is far more precious than gold sovereigns - and if we really take a hit then the welfare state will go which in the long term is the best thing we can do for the underclass who will have to stop being like sheep and learn to think for themselves again.
Pain for other people?
I think Mr Bedfordshire is of the 'who; whom' school of politics.
I get fed up with people endlessly banging on about something after the decision has been made
Agree. Nothing irritated me more when, in 1997, the Conservatives insisted on remaining the opposition, indeed didn't disband themselves, and then tried to win another election.
That's an argument to be allowed to campaign to rejoin, which is fine, not to be allowed to frustrate the British people's democratic decision.
I'm pretty sure I've explained this to you more than once before: which bit are you finding so difficult to understand?
You have no idea what the British people's democratic decision is.
We are leaving the EU. I'm sure I've explained that to you more than once before.
The British people's democratic decision is to Leave the EU, as I've said repeatedly. (You have never needed to "explain" this to me as I have stated it explicitly.) Therefore arguing for a particular kind of Leave is not undemocratic. Nor is arguing to Rejoin after we Leave. These are analagous to a defeated government going into opposition and campaigning in the next election.
What is undemocratic is arguing that we should not Leave the EU or that our Leaving should be delayed indefinitely. That would be analagous to a defeated government trying to cling to power anyway.
Again, which part of this don't you follow?
No one or very few people (none on here) are arguing not to leave.
The statement that nobody on here is arguing that we should not Leave is untrue.
'I am amazed that there is so little coverage of the case in Paklistan where they are about to execute a christian woman for drinking from the same crockery as muslims.'
Hadn't heard that one, but apparently their parliament may finally be going to outlaw honor killings,but I wouldn't bet on it .
Strange the outrage from the left over Saudi Arabia but hardly a mention of the ongoing human rights abuses in another medieval country.
Questions with only two answers lead to bitterness and hatred, clearly. Suddenly it becomes obvious that the Liberals have for decades been the thin line between us and civil war.
Not true. The One Nation approach is the way forward. Leaders with the ability to understand and govern in the interests of both London and the country/small towns
"One Nation" is a nice little phrase, Mr Charles. I does not have much to do with the Tory Party, who are anything but that.
I don`t think the divide is between London and the country though. It is between the disgustingly wealthy and privileged and rest of us.
The May government doesn't feel particularly one Nation, but it's an ideal not a statement of fact
Re: your second paragraph it's a simplification For instance I spent last weekend with some people in the West Country who are extremely wealthy but have a great sense of duty and obligation to the other residents of their patch. The London wealthy tend to be more internationally minded and less aware of their local communities (my family is probably the closest that London has to squires and even we are relatively less significant than we were in past generations).
Ultimately the vote was won on a platform of anti-immigration.
No, it really wasn't. Those whose primary concern was immigration would have voted Leave regardless, because it was the ONLY route to exercise ANY control over immigration. Labour, Coalition and Conservative Govts. have been shown to be deaf to this concern for twenty years.
The vote was won on the back of people like me, for whom immigration was not the issue. My concern - and I would argue, more than 2% of the ultimate electorate - was that the EU was not consistent with my understanding of a working democratic voice for the UK. Now, if the EU had acknowledged that concern - or if Cameron had fought that corner in the "Renegotiation" - then my vote to Remain (and many like me) was still up for grabs. But instead, Remain went about insulting our intelligence and calling us names whilst they were at it.
Remain ran a shite campaign that pushed millions away. That they refuse to own their failure is very telling about them.
Not true. The One Nation approach is the way forward. Leaders with the ability to understand and govern in the interests of both London and the country/small towns
There you go again. Believe it or not there are actual cities outside London.
Yes, but none of them are as global - they tend to look to their hinterlands as markets. London sucks from their hinterland to act as an entrepot. The mindset of a Newcastle, for instance, is much closer to say Durham than London is to Winchester
''Now that really is sophistry. If that were true, why has May recommitted to a drastic reduction in numbers and slapped down Hammond for suggesting students might not be counted in overall numbers?''
Well do leavers have to agree with everything Mrs May says?
Tell you what, you go on campaigning for the inalienable right of Europe's people traffickers, gang masters, violent criminals, health tourists, benefit skimmers, begging gangs etc. to keep coming here.
The resulting vaporisation at the ballot box might teach you something eventually.
Sorry to see you reduced to such an absurd argument.
Must be difficult to realise your noble cause was voted through only by relying on a much broader bloc. Do not then affect surprise when Mrs May interprets the results in the most logical way!
Mr. Jonathan, part of the blame rests with Cameron who did sod all preparatory work and prevented the Civil Service from doing anything.
I'll accept that argument against Cameron when someone shows me leave's consolidated plan for what would happen afterwards.
Oh ...
Leave wasn't and isn't the government and so was in no position to make and enforce such a plan.
You make three statements: 1) Leave wasn't and isn't the government True.
2) so was in no position to make such a plan. False.
3) so was in no position to enforce such a plan. True.
We all know why they didn't make such a plan: they needed to form a broad church in order to win, and any such plan would have upset too many Brexiters and pushed moderates towards Remain.
Their lack of putting forward a coherent position means that we're in more trouble now than would have been the case otherwise: the government would have had a firmer view of the people's will.
I find their willingness to blame Cameron for this one of the sadly funny aspects of Brexit.
No, the second statement is true as well: they did not have access to the civil service to make a plan (unlike oppositions before a general election).
The most that they could have done would have been to sketch an outline of a plan, but without the backing of civil service input this would have been unhelpful as the public could have believed that it was a manifesto for immediate implementation rather than just a general outline.
Oh come on. In which case they should have shut up and not campaigned. *They* were responsible for making a case for leave. But instead of a coherent plan, they produced a mess that would appeal to as broad a base as possible. The problem now is that we now have f'all idea how to reconcile that mess with reality.
Im beginning to recognise that there is no alternative to hard brexit. Its going to be more difficult, especially in the short term but, so be it. What we are regaining is far more precious than gold sovereigns - and if we really take a hit then the welfare state will go which in the long term is the best thing we can do for the underclass who will have to stop being like sheep and learn to think for themselves again.
Pain for other people?
I think Mr Bedfordshire is of the 'who; whom' school of politics.
I get fed up with people endlessly banging on about something after the decision has been made
Agree. Nothing irritated me more when, in 1997, the Conservatives insisted on remaining the opposition, indeed didn't disband themselves, and then tried to win another election.
That's an argument to be allowed to campaign to rejoin, which is fine, not to be allowed to frustrate the British people's democratic decision.
I'm pretty sure I've explained this to you more than once before: which bit are you finding so difficult to understand?
You have no idea what the British people's democratic decision is.
We are leaving the EU. I'm sure I've explained that to you more than once before.
The British people's democratic decision is to Leave the EU, as I've said repeatedly. (You have never needed to "explain" this to me as I have stated it explicitly.) Therefore arguing for a particular kind of Leave is not undemocratic. Nor is arguing to Rejoin after we Leave. These are analagous to a defeated government going into opposition and campaigning in the next election.
What is undemocratic is arguing that we should not Leave the EU or that our Leaving should be delayed indefinitely. That would be analagous to a defeated government trying to cling to power anyway.
Again, which part of this don't you follow?
No one or very few people (none on here) are arguing not to leave.
The statement that nobody on here is arguing that we should not Leave is untrue.
No one is arguing that we should ignore the referendum.
Mr. Jonathan, part of the blame rests with Cameron who did sod all preparatory work and prevented the Civil Service from doing anything.
I'll accept that argument against Cameron when someone shows me leave's consolidated plan for what would happen afterwards. Oh ...
Were the LEAVE campaigners in charge of any civil servants with the right to direct them to do such work?
JJ You really keep on trying to fight against Brexit, get over it, move on please.
LOL. If you read my posts (I accept it sadly seems a hard task for some leavers) then you will see I have accepted Brexit. In fact, I've given some good (*) arguments for a quick Brexit, even if that means hard Brexit. I do not favour another referendum, and have never argued for one. I'm not quite sure how that makes you think I'm fighting against Brexit. But that doesn't mean that I can't point out when I think people are wrong. Even when they're leavers. (*) At least I think so.
I have not read every one of your posts. So I clearly have missed the ones where you talk about Brexit with coming across as a moaning REMAIN person. I am tempted to ask if they represent 1%, 10% or >50% of your posts? But that would be ungentlemanly.
Interesting article. I heard of my first bit of post vote racism yesterday. An Italian friend who owns a wine bar was speaking to a representative from a brewery ordering beer. He had to answer several standard questions. His English is reasonable but not perfect and one of the questions he couldn't understand so asked for clarification.
This didn't help much and he heard the lady from the brewery presumably believing her hand was covering the phone saying to a colleague 'When are these foreigners going to be sent home?". When they resumed my friend reminded her that he might be a foreigner but he was also a customer! Flustered she said she wasn't talking about him.........
He said he's never encountered anything like that before and he's been in the UK for 4 years.
Undeniable that Brexit has given many the license to express the worst kinds of opinions.
And let us not forget Jo Cox was murdered by a Brexiting madman.
It is very poor show for Brexiters to deny this (though they are not of course responsible for it).
That's a very poor show by you.
All we know is that Jo Cox was murdered by a madman. We know nothing about his reasons.
Er, I think it's pretty clear he wasn't a liberal lefty looking to extend human rights to quinoa.
Nutters often grab on to the issue du hour. We can't conclude on his real beliefs or motives (if any sane).
Sophistry.
Correlation vs causation.
I suggest we wait for the trial before speculating. But even if someone is mad, it doesn't mean they can't be evil.
''Sorry to see you reduced to such an absurd argument. ''
Yeah right an absurd argument to which you have no answer. As ever remainers cannot and will not deal with the 'quality of immigrant' argument in any shape or form whatsoever, because it is completely unanswerable.
So if you are the learning impaired guy who got his face smashed in by a violent eastern European thug, tough.
Golly, it appears that mental illness IS a valid defence for disassociating a widely held cutural/political view from the acts of an individual. There was me almost convinced that it was one of the most piss-poor, cowardly, dishonest forms of exculpation going.
Not true. The One Nation approach is the way forward. Leaders with the ability to understand and govern in the interests of both London and the country/small towns
There you go again. Believe it or not there are actual cities outside London.
Yes, but none of them are as global - they tend to look to their hinterlands as markets. London sucks from their hinterland to act as an entrepot. The mindset of a Newcastle, for instance, is much closer to say Durham than London is to Winchester
Certainly not true of university towns, which receive a large slug of their income from overseas.
Mr. Jonathan, part of the blame rests with Cameron who did sod all preparatory work and prevented the Civil Service from doing anything.
I'll accept that argument against Cameron when someone shows me leave's consolidated plan for what would happen afterwards.
Oh ...
Leave wasn't and isn't the government and so was in no position to make and enforce such a plan.
You make three statements: 1) Leave wasn't and isn't the government True.
2) so was in no position to make such a plan. False.
3) so was in no position to enforce such a plan. True.
We all know why they didn't make such a plan: they needed to form a broad church in order to win, and any such plan would have upset too many Brexiters and pushed moderates towards Remain.
Their lack of putting forward a coherent position means that we're in more trouble now than would have been the case otherwise: the government would have had a firmer view of the people's will.
I find their willingness to blame Cameron for this one of the sadly funny aspects of Brexit.
No, the second statement is true as well: they did not have access to the civil service to make a plan (unlike oppositions before a general election).
The most that they could have done would have been to sketch an outline of a plan, but without the backing of civil service input this would have been unhelpful as the public could have believed that it was a manifesto for immediate implementation rather than just a general outline.
Oh come on. In which case they should have shut up and not campaigned. *They* were responsible for making a case for leave. But instead of a coherent plan, they produced a mess that would appeal to as broad a base as possible. The problem now is that we now have f'all idea how to reconcile that mess with reality.
OH look over there, pre-23rd June we have a Govt plan for what would happen if we remained and no Govt plan for LEAVE*. Person at top of Govt = Cameron. Person in charge of planning for such things = Osborne.
*Except that they did say that if we voted to LEAVE then Govt/BoE would: increase interest rates and hold an emergency budget. Niether of which the Govt/BoE did.
Interesting article. I heard of my first bit of post vote racism yesterday. An Italian friend who owns a wine bar was speaking to a representative from a brewery ordering beer. He had to answer several standard questions. His English is reasonable but not perfect and one of the questions he couldn't understand so asked for clarification.
This didn't help much and he heard the lady from the brewery presumably believing her hand was covering the phone saying to a colleague 'When are these foreigners going to be sent home?". When they resumed my friend reminded her that he might be a foreigner but he was also a customer! Flustered she said she wasn't talking about him.........
He said he's never encountered anything like that before and he's been in the UK for 4 years.
Undeniable that Brexit has given many the license to express the worst kinds of opinions.
And let us not forget Jo Cox was murdered by a Brexiting madman.
It is very poor show for Brexiters to deny this (though they are not of course responsible for it).
That's a very poor show by you.
All we know is that Jo Cox was murdered by a madman. We know nothing about his reasons.
Er, I think it's pretty clear he wasn't a liberal lefty looking to extend human rights to quinoa.
Nutters often grab on to the issue du hour. We can't conclude on his real beliefs or motives (if any sane).
Sophistry.
Correlation vs causation.
I suggest we wait for the trial before speculating. But even if someone is mad, it doesn't mean they can't be evil.
I agree. All I am arguing is we don't *know* the cause for his actions. That's for the court to determine.
Ultimately the vote was won on a platform of anti-immigration.
No, it really wasn't. Those whose primary concern was immigration would have voted Leave regardless, because it was the ONLY route to exercise ANY control over immigration. Labour, Coalition and Conservative Govts. have been shown to be deaf to this concern for twenty years.
The vote was won on the back of people like me, for whom immigration was not the issue. My concern - and I would argue, more than 2% of the ultimate electorate - was that the EU was not consistent with my understanding of a working democratic voice for the UK. Now, if the EU had acknowledged that concern - or if Cameron had fought that corner in the "Renegotiation" - then my vote to Remain (and many like me) was still up for grabs. But instead, Remain went about insulting our intelligence and calling us names whilst they were at it.
Remain ran a shite campaign that pushed millions away. That they refuse to own their failure is very telling about them.
Dear or dear. Daily Mail illustrates a column that talks about Rolls-Royce in Derby and the aerospace industry with a photo of a rolls royce car.
Par for the course for most papers these days. All the sub editors and picture editors that check these things are long gone, in favour of single journalists self-publishing like the paper is one big blog.
''Sorry to see you reduced to such an absurd argument. ''
Yeah right an absurd argument to which you have no answer. As ever remainers cannot and will not deal with the 'quality of immigrant' argument in any shape or form whatsoever, because it is completely unanswerable.
So if you are the learning impaired guy who got his face smashed in by a violent eastern European thug, tough.
But you're just talking to yourself.
My case is that the referendum was won on an anti-immigration platform. Not solely. There was a bedrock of pro-sovreignty and, if you like, "control of immigration" argument. But clearly it was a fear of the very large volumes of immigration that turned it into a win.
Just ask Aaron Banks.
But instead of accepting, or even arguing against it, you start gibbering about thugs beating up mentally disabled people.
You're a perfect example of the intolerance I was mentioning unthread. You pretend it's about "better quality" immigration but when asked to justify yourself you resort to xenophobic tropes.
Questions with only two answers lead to bitterness and hatred, clearly. Suddenly it becomes obvious that the Liberals have for decades been the thin line between us and civil war.
Not true. The One Nation approach is the way forward. Leaders with the ability to understand and govern in the interests of both London and the country/small towns
"One Nation" is a nice little phrase, Mr Charles. I does not have much to do with the Tory Party, who are anything but that.
I don`t think the divide is between London and the country though. It is between the disgustingly wealthy and privileged and rest of us.
The May government doesn't feel particularly one Nation, but it's an ideal not a statement of fact
Re: your second paragraph it's a simplification For instance I spent last weekend with some people in the West Country who are extremely wealthy but have a great sense of duty and obligation to the other residents of their patch. The London wealthy tend to be more internationally minded and less aware of their local communities (my family is probably the closest that London has to squires and even we are relatively less significant than we were in past generations).
I think that's more the difference between old money and new money. The old money has much more social responsibility and a wish to look after those around them.
Comments
After all you are all looking for confirmation that we brexiters are all baby eating redwoodites, salivating over the prospect of a return of Workhouses?
Still, perhaps the idle will kill and eat the old, the sick and the disabled, and the problem will take care of itself.
A great many of my friends are of various ethnicities and not a single one has mentioned post-Brexit racism.
The ongoing Brexit debate could be killed stone dead by a competent government with a plan that went some way to address the concerns of those who voted Remain.
What we have now is a vacuum and zero confidence. What the government does say spooks the markets and picks at wounds.
They need to get a grip.
"The non-productive won it for Leave."
Is there any proof that's the case and if so, should the UK respect the rights of theses people that have
1) Unfortunately become unemployed despite previously working and paying taxes
2) Reached pensionable age having worked hard and paid substantial taxes in their lifetime
3). Sick and in need through bad luck and circumstances having previously contributed to the country.
Alternatively, as this left wing poster suggests should the UK simply remove these voters rights and remove from the register when they find themselves in such circumstances as they seem to make the wrong decisions. ( Aka - or rather decisions that specific poster did not agree with)
Discuss.
That said, a more unified front is urgent. May does have a couple of months to get things in order, but I suspect managing the personalities matters as much (for party harmony) than settling the policies.
You seek to deny by citing one example of anti-Brexit hatred as if "both sides are the same".
Similar to Trumps attempted character assassinations of Hillary.
But one rather bizarre case is not equivalent to the low-level antipathy if not racism experienced by many immigrants and ethnic minorities today.
Hopefully it will simmer down in due course, but one of things that makes me proudest of this country is its relative level of tolerance. I don't want to be like France (cannot disagree with Alanbrooke above). Brexit has moved the dial - even slightly - toward intolerance.
Might it be your friends know your inclination towards leave, and don't mention it?
In addition, you have to be careful about your data set. In my case, most of my friends are middle class, and are probably less likely to suffer racism than (say) working class people in poorer neighbourhoods.
Amongst my group, the biggest problem with Brexit so far has not been racism, but business uncertainty.
I don't cite him to tarnish Brexit, but to cite the hatred inflamed by Brexit.
I was doing a question time session for local sixth formers (years 12/13 in newspeak) this week and one of the questions, paraphrasing only slightly, was along the lines of "since it is our future and old people are going to die soon anyway, shouldn't they not have been allowed to vote".
Oh ...
As things stand nobody knows why Mair did what he did, that's what we have courts for.
I don't doubt that racial animosity exists in the UK. I don't believe that Brexit has intensified it.
And anyone who is vile now was vile before 23 June this year. I am prepared to believe that there has been some level of blip in overt racism since 23 June, though the evidence isn't overwhelming, but we get the same thing after an English football defeat and we don't stop playing football.
JJ You really keep on trying to fight against Brexit, get over it, move on please.
Those who might have kept quiet before feel freer to express themselves. Those who expressed themselves before may find it a smaller step to commit violence.
See also how genocides start. Though I hesitate to Godwin so early in the morning.
We Tories ought to get this instinctively. It is custom, society and order that prevent our worst instincts emerging. Even if we believe humans are naturally altruistic, as I do, our dark urges are undeniable.
What I see a lot on here is people dismissing reports of increased intolerance - like the relatively trivial one Roger related - as:
Fictitious / statistically dubious
"Not my experience"
Other countries are still worse
Now undoubtedly the Guardian and others will leap on any story that they can use to paint Brexit as intolerance writ large. It's natural to bridle at that and to try to refute the overall case
The sheer weight of anecdote about how immigrants are feeling post vote is difficult to dismiss. And I don't think it speaks well of Brexiters to dismiss it.
Edit: as I think Patrick notes above, the exact same phenomenon is seen in the modern Labour party under Corbyn with regards to anti-semitism. I believe the new terms is "hand waving"
What a load of rot.
Remember Tunnocks - their sales went up with the Union flag....
I am amazed that there is so little coverage of the case in Paklistan where they are about to execute a christian woman for drinking from the same crockery as muslims.
Why do we even have diplomatic relations with such a country? Why do we accept a single immigrant from that country? why do we even allow them an embassy? why don;t we have economic sanctions against them? Why do we have sporting contests with them?
Of course many if not most are both.
This is the problem with people who suggest that Brexit has caused no increase in hate crime by arguing against every incident.
I don`t think the divide is between London and the country though. It is between the disgustingly wealthy and privileged and rest of us.
Again there are double standards from the left here. Jo Cox's murderer was responding to the Brexit Zeitgeist. But muslim nut jobs stabbing people in broad daylight are 'acting alone, nothing to do with islam'.
I'm pretty sure I've explained this to you more than once before: which bit are you finding so difficult to understand?
If you read my posts (I accept it sadly seems a hard task for some leavers) then you will see I have accepted Brexit. In fact, I've given some good (*) arguments for a quick Brexit, even if that means hard Brexit. I do not favour another referendum, and have never argued for one.
I'm not quite sure how that makes you think I'm fighting against Brexit.
But that doesn't mean that I can't point out when I think people are wrong. Even when they're leavers.
(*) At least I think so.
There seems to be a default assumption amongst remainers that anybody that wants to control immigration is a de facto racist. That is quite absurd.
I merely bemoan the accompanying mood music.
Ultimately the vote was won on a platform of anti-immigration. That's fine. It's time we tackled it democratically. But let us not forget or dismiss the risk of political contagion.
We are leaving the EU. I'm sure I've explained that to you more than once before.
1) Leave wasn't and isn't the government
True.
2) so was in no position to make such a plan.
False.
3) so was in no position to enforce such a plan.
True.
We all know why they didn't make such a plan: they needed to form a broad church in order to win, and any such plan would have upset too many Brexiters and pushed moderates towards Remain.
Their lack of putting forward a coherent position means that we're in more trouble now than would have been the case otherwise: the government would have had a firmer view of the people's will.
I find their willingness to blame Cameron for this one of the sadly funny aspects of Brexit.
Luckily Spurs aren't playing today.
That really is not true. It was won on a platform of controlling immigration. We will still get plenty of immigration hopefully. It will just be of a better and more consistent quality.
Fine if your One Nation consists of white, middle-aged men.
Who is the Hack* writing “there’s so much poison pumped into the British psyche about the EU that it’s worth stopping for a moment to realize how incredible this is.” They referred to the “angry flecks of euro-scepticism”, described euro-sceptics as “foaming”, wrote in an especially disgusting phrase about “all this euro-sceptic pus”, while accusing the Tories of “Hunbashing, frog-thrashing xenophobia”.
David Aaronovitch, (a winner of the Orwell Prize for political journalism just like "Hack") asserts that “the anti-Europeans want to hum ‘Land of Hope and Glory’ as they nuke the British economy.”
*Hack = infamous scoundrel Johann Hari writing about the Euro.
Quotes are drawn from the Independent, of 19 March 2007, 4 June 2005, 15 April 2005, 21 April 2004 and 9 May 2003
Wrong on the Euro and wrong about Brexit.
What is undemocratic is arguing that we should not Leave the EU or that our Leaving should be delayed indefinitely. That would be analagous to a defeated government trying to cling to power anyway.
Again, which part of this don't you follow?
I think that would be most entertaining.
You owe me a brewery for the Verstappen tip
Far more likely that these incidents would have happened whatever the result, and the calling of a referendum was the trigger.
Your withering comment mode needs a bit of work.
The most that they could have done would have been to sketch an outline of a plan, but without the backing of civil service input this would have been unhelpful as the public could have believed that it was a manifesto for immediate implementation rather than just a general outline.
Dear or dear. Daily Mail illustrates a column that talks about Rolls-Royce in Derby and the aerospace industry with a photo of a rolls royce car.
Well do leavers have to agree with everything Mrs May says?
Tell you what, you go on campaigning for the inalienable right of Europe's people traffickers, gang masters, violent criminals, health tourists, benefit skimmers, begging gangs etc. to keep coming here.
The resulting vaporisation at the ballot box might teach you something eventually.
*prepares for barrage of 'Scotland are even more shite'.*
'I am amazed that there is so little coverage of the case in Paklistan where they are about to execute a christian woman for drinking from the same crockery as muslims.'
Hadn't heard that one, but apparently their parliament may finally be going to outlaw honor killings,but I wouldn't bet on it .
Strange the outrage from the left over Saudi Arabia but hardly a mention of the ongoing human rights abuses in another medieval country.
Re: your second paragraph it's a simplification
For instance I spent last weekend with some people in the West Country who are extremely wealthy but have a great sense of duty and obligation to the other residents of their patch. The London wealthy tend to be more internationally minded and less aware of their local communities (my family is probably the closest that London has to squires and even we are relatively less significant than we were in past generations).
The vote was won on the back of people like me, for whom immigration was not the issue. My concern - and I would argue, more than 2% of the ultimate electorate - was that the EU was not consistent with my understanding of a working democratic voice for the UK. Now, if the EU had acknowledged that concern - or if Cameron had fought that corner in the "Renegotiation" - then my vote to Remain (and many like me) was still up for grabs. But instead, Remain went about insulting our intelligence and calling us names whilst they were at it.
Remain ran a shite campaign that pushed millions away. That they refuse to own their failure is very telling about them.
Must be difficult to realise your noble cause was voted through only by relying on a much broader bloc. Do not then affect surprise when Mrs May interprets the results in the most logical way!
Come to Abu Dhabi for the last race and I'll cover your drinks for the day, as a thinks for your tips all year!
Yeah right an absurd argument to which you have no answer. As ever remainers cannot and will not deal with the 'quality of immigrant' argument in any shape or form whatsoever, because it is completely unanswerable.
So if you are the learning impaired guy who got his face smashed in by a violent eastern European thug, tough.
.
*Except that they did say that if we voted to LEAVE then Govt/BoE would: increase interest rates and hold an emergency budget. Niether of which the Govt/BoE did.
Morrissey?
My case is that the referendum was won on an anti-immigration platform. Not solely. There was a bedrock of pro-sovreignty and, if you like, "control of immigration" argument. But clearly it was a fear of the very large volumes of immigration that turned it into a win.
Just ask Aaron Banks.
But instead of accepting, or even arguing against it, you start gibbering about thugs beating up mentally disabled people.
You're a perfect example of the intolerance I was mentioning unthread. You pretend it's about "better quality" immigration but when asked to justify yourself you resort to xenophobic tropes.