Not the least reason for continued bickering about what happens next is that much the same appears to being conducted, sometimes quite publicly, within the cabinet. When there's no settled policy, it seems rather otiose to argue that those who voted remain ought just to shut up.
Cabinet members ticking each other off publically, and being slapped down by the PM does indeed give the impression that there is no plan.
I have not seen any evidence that there is a plan, or that May is capable of forming one. In the absence of a plan the outcome defaults to Hard Brexit. Get used to it.
I posted a while back that Mrs May might just be Oscar Wilde's Sphinx Without a Secret, and I'm starting to fear that's true.
Not the least reason for continued bickering about what happens next is that much the same appears to being conducted, sometimes quite publicly, within the cabinet. When there's no settled policy, it seems rather otiose to argue that those who voted remain ought just to shut up.
Cabinet members ticking each other off publically, and being slapped down by the PM does indeed give the impression that there is no plan.
I have not seen any evidence that there is a plan, or that May is capable of forming one. In the absence of a plan the outcome defaults to Hard Brexit. Get used to it.
Probably best.
Why stay in an organisation that cant deliver a trade deal with the US or Canada or anywhere else for that matter.
Even the germans are now coming to realise the Brits had a point.
Not the least reason for continued bickering about what happens next is that much the same appears to being conducted, sometimes quite publicly, within the cabinet. When there's no settled policy, it seems rather otiose to argue that those who voted remain ought just to shut up.
Cabinet members ticking each other off publically, and being slapped down by the PM does indeed give the impression that there is no plan.
I have not seen any evidence that there is a plan, or that May is capable of forming one. In the absence of a plan the outcome defaults to Hard Brexit. Get used to it.
If it has to be it has to be. Sod them and their freedom of movement danegeld
The irony is that after Hard Brexit, and the end of freedom of movement, is that immigration will still be on much the same scale as it is now. The immigrants come to do the jobs that Britons cannot or will not do. The family unifications and students will continue. Even crashing the economy will not stop it (it did not in 2009-10).
Brexit will fail on the one thing that it set out to do. Why am I so sure? Well, because May completely failed to get a grip on non-EU migration during her 6 years in charge of it.
"It used to be a reliable rule that divided parties don’t win elections. Tories can be forgiven for thinking that this stricture doesn’t apply to them anymore, especially in the absence of a credible threat from their external opponents. The Conservatives were obviously divided about Europe before the 2015 election and still managed to squeak a parliamentary majority. They fought each other viciously during the referendum and that battle goes on in a new form. Yet they still enjoy double-digit leads in opinion polls. This is encouraging some Tories to believe that there is no longer a penalty for being undisciplined. Yet there are big reasons why it does still matter that the government is advertising its divisions to the world. It is hard to come to sensible decisions when the cabinet leaks like a sieve."
Not the least reason for continued bickering about what happens next is that much the same appears to being conducted, sometimes quite publicly, within the cabinet. When there's no settled policy, it seems rather otiose to argue that those who voted remain ought just to shut up.
Cabinet members ticking each other off publically, and being slapped down by the PM does indeed give the impression that there is no plan.
I have not seen any evidence that there is a plan, or that May is capable of forming one. In the absence of a plan the outcome defaults to Hard Brexit. Get used to it.
If it has to be it has to be. Sod them and their freedom of movement danegeld
The irony is that after Hard Brexit, and the end of freedom of movement, is that immigration will still be on much the same scale as it is now. The immigrants come to do the jobs that Britons cannot or will not do. The family unifications and students will continue. Even crashing the economy will not stop it (it did not in 2009-10).
Brexit will fail on the one thing that it set out to do. Why am I so sure? Well, because May completely failed to get a grip on non-EU migration during her 6 years in charge of it.
There will be more tools available to do so after Hexit. The question is whether those tools would be used effectively.
Please get with it: the destruction of our financial services, decades of economic stagnation and decline in our international influence is but a small price to pay for Freedom! And we'll also get less immigration.
Funny how the same people that have been bashing the evil scumbag bankers since 2008, now recoil in horror at the idea of financial services moving out of the UK.
Not me, tar and feather them and send them on their way
Not the least reason for continued bickering about what happens next is that much the same appears to being conducted, sometimes quite publicly, within the cabinet. When there's no settled policy, it seems rather otiose to argue that those who voted remain ought just to shut up.
Cabinet members ticking each other off publically, and being slapped down by the PM does indeed give the impression that there is no plan.
I have not seen any evidence that there is a plan, or that May is capable of forming one. In the absence of a plan the outcome defaults to Hard Brexit. Get used to it.
If it has to be it has to be. Sod them and their freedom of movement danegeld
The irony is that after Hard Brexit, and the end of freedom of movement, is that immigration will still be on much the same scale as it is now. The immigrants come to do the jobs that Britons cannot or will not do. The family unifications and students will continue. Even crashing the economy will not stop it (it did not in 2009-10).
Brexit will fail on the one thing that it set out to do. Why am I so sure? Well, because May completely failed to get a grip on non-EU migration during her 6 years in charge of it.
Only for those for whom immigration was the be all and end of all
For those where EU immigration was an issue only in that it was a symptom of a much bigger issue (loss of sovereignty), not so much.
Also when parliament decides the numbers, parliament can be lobbied and their members replaced if they piss the public off enough over immigration. The EU nabobs couldnt be so removed by the British Public.
Please get with it: the destruction of our financial services, decades of economic stagnation and decline in our international influence is but a small price to pay for Freedom! And we'll also get less immigration.
Woe woe and thrice woe! The end of the world is nigh!
Christ what a lot of crying on this board, the decision has been taken for good or ill, move the fuck on.
I'm with you all the way. Tho one'll notice
Financial services are one thing (though I expect the moves to be piecemeal, as hiring stops here, natural wastage occurs and new jobs are in Frankfurt and Geneva), but the Brexiteers risk trashing the brand in a Trump like orgy of narcisstic pique. Our cultural brand is a large part of the value of our exports in design, fashion, music, TV etc; the damage to these could be very significant.
You make a very good point. The value of the British brand in most of the creative and cultural fields was second to none. We punched way above our weight. The damage that was done to the UK brand by the vote alone is incalculable.
From representing an outgoing creative powerhouse 'brand UK' has become a symbol of UKIP 'Little Englanders'. Why should those of us in the service sector accept the damage to our livelihoods and the country's livelihood by the votes of some very ignorant people who have no idea of the implications of what they were doing or how the country makes its money.
Bollocks
the "cool britannia" brand exists only in the heads of people on the UK left. it's their vanity invention of how they see themselves.
for the rest of the world we still we have bad teeth, wear bowler hats and live in villages with Miss Marple. it's indifferent food, cold stand offishness and the pursuit of money.
Please get with it: the destruction of our financial services, decades of economic stagnation and decline in our international influence is but a small price to pay for Freedom! And we'll also get less immigration.
Woe woe and thrice woe! The end of the world is nigh!
Christ what a lot of crying on this board, the decision has been taken for good or ill, move the fuck on.
I'm with you all the way. Tho one'll notice
Financial services are one thing (though I expect the moves to be piecemeal, as hiring stops here, natural wastage occurs and new jobs are in Frankfurt and Geneva), but the Brexiteers risk trashing the brand in a Trump like orgy of narcisstic pique. Our cultural brand is a large part of the value of our exports in design, fashion, music, TV etc; the damage to these could be very significant.
You make a very good point. The value of the British brand in most of the creative and cultural fields was second to none. We punched way above our weight. The damage that was done to the UK brand by the vote alone is incalculable.
From representing an outgoing creative powerhouse 'brand UK' has become a symbol of UKIP 'Little Englanders'. Why should those of us in the service sector accept the damage to our livelihoods and the country's livelihood by the votes of some very ignorant people who have no idea of the implications of what they were doing or how the country makes its money.
Bollocks
the "cool britannia" brand exists only in the heads of people on the UK left. it's their vanity invention of how they see themselves.
for the rest of the world we still we have bad teeth, wear bowler hats and live in villages with Miss Marple. it's indifferent food, cold stand offishness and the pursuit of money.
Not the least reason for continued bickering about what happens next is that much the same appears to being conducted, sometimes quite publicly, within the cabinet. When there's no settled policy, it seems rather otiose to argue that those who voted remain ought just to shut up.
Cabinet members ticking each other off publically, and being slapped down by the PM does indeed give the impression that there is no plan.
I have not seen any evidence that there is a plan, or that May is capable of forming one. In the absence of a plan the outcome defaults to Hard Brexit. Get used to it.
Probably best.
Why stay in an organisation that cant deliver a trade deal with the US or Canada or anywhere else for that matter.
Even the germans are now coming to realise the Brits had a point.
the Walloonies are holding them by the balls and brand EUrope is being trashed by its failure to deliver deals.
Im beginning to recognise that there is no alternative to hard brexit. Its going to be more difficult, especially in the short term but, so be it. What we are regaining is far more precious than gold sovereigns - and if we really take a hit then the welfare state will go which in the long term is the best thing we can do for the underclass who will have to stop being like sheep and learn to think for themselves again.
Not the least reason for continued bickering about what happens next is that much the same appears to being conducted, sometimes quite publicly, within the cabinet. When there's no settled policy, it seems rather otiose to argue that those who voted remain ought just to shut up.
Cabinet members ticking each other off publically, and being slapped down by the PM does indeed give the impression that there is no plan.
I have not seen any evidence that there is a plan, or that May is capable of forming one. In the absence of a plan the outcome defaults to Hard Brexit. Get used to it.
I posted a while back that Mrs May might just be Oscar Wilde's Sphinx Without a Secret, and I'm starting to fear that's true.
That reminds me of a true story when a new senior operations director arrived at the large company I used to work for. He came with a glowing reputation, and for the first few months sat inscrutably at almost every meeting he attended, whilst the grapevine hummed with tales of this silent genius who was taking his time to weigh up all the issues before revealing his master strategy. After about six months people were starting to get edgy that no strategy had appeared and, indeed, he had hardly done or said anything. He was gone within the year, the penny that he was out of his depth having finally dropped, leaving as silently as he arrived. Doubtless he got a good reference to help him on the way.
Mr. Roger, worth noting the people banging on about 'Little Englanders' are the ones who are complaining we're seen as 'Little Englanders'.
That phrase didn't do Remain much good in the campaign, and it won't do you much good now.
Mr. Sandpit, interesting suggestion. I think I checked the (four, or so) previous races. Half had safety cars, although one of those, I think, was very wet. Might be worth a look.
My initial ideas all had dire odds so I'm having to search for something. I think more coffee may be required.
Mr. Bedfordshire, I agree. I think the EU will implode sooner or later, and we're better to be outside the edifice when it collapses. That doesn't mean it'll be plain sailing.
A ship in a harbour is safe. But that is not what ships are for.
Dr. Foxinsox, if only you'd tipped it!
I wish I'd put more than a few pounds on Verstappen, but can't complain too much about a 250/1 winner in about a week.
A ship in harbour is safe.. tell that to the Tirpitz.
Please get with it: the destruction of our financial services, decades of economic stagnation and decline in our international influence is but a small price to pay for Freedom! And we'll also get less immigration.
Woe woe and thrice woe! The end of the world is nigh!
Christ what a lot of crying on this board, the decision has been taken for good or ill, move the fuck on.
I'm with you all the way. Tho one'll notice
Financial services are one thing (though I expect the moves to be piecemeal, as hiring stops here, natural wastage occurs and new jobs are in Frankfurt and Geneva), but the Brexiteers risk trashing the brand in a Trump like orgy of narcisstic pique. Our cultural brand is a large part of the value of our exports in design, fashion, music, TV etc; the damage to these could be very significant.
You make a very good point. The value of the British brand in most of the creative and cultural fields was second to none. We punched way above our weight. The damage that was done to the UK brand by the vote alone is incalculable.
From representing an outgoing creative powerhouse 'brand UK' has become a symbol of UKIP 'Little Englanders'. Why should those of us in the service sector accept the damage to our livelihoods and the country's livelihood by the votes of some very ignorant people who have no idea of the implications of what they were doing or how the country makes its money.
Bollocks
the "cool britannia" brand exists only in the heads of people on the UK left. it's their vanity invention of how they see themselves.
for the rest of the world we still we have bad teeth, wear bowler hats and live in villages with Miss Marple. it's indifferent food, cold stand offishness and the pursuit of money.
You're talking at cross purposes. While it may be true that the average citizen living in the sticks in Alabama or Novosibirsk might think that way, that is very different from our commercial brand in the minds of people who control large budgets.
Please get with it: the destruction of our financial services, decades of economic stagnation and decline in our international influence is but a small price to pay for Freedom! And we'll also get less immigration.
Woe woe and thrice woe! The end of the world is nigh!
Christ what a lot of crying on this board, the decision has been taken for good or ill, move the fuck on.
I'm with you all the way. Tho one'll notice
Financial services are one thing (though I expect the moves to be piecemeal, as hiring stops here, natural wastage occurs and new jobs are in Frankfurt and Geneva), but the Brexiteers risk trashing the brand in a Trump like orgy of narcisstic pique. Our cultural brand is a large part of the value of our exports in design, fashion, music, TV etc; the damage to these could be very significant.
You make a very good point. The value of the British brand in most of the creative and cultural fields was second to none. We punched way above our weight. The damage that was done to the UK brand by the vote alone is incalculable.
From representing an outgoing creative powerhouse 'brand UK' has become a symbol of UKIP 'Little Englanders'. Why should those of us in the service sector accept the damage to our livelihoods and the country's livelihood by the votes of some very ignorant people who have no idea of the implications of what they were doing or how the country makes its money.
Bollocks
the "cool britannia" brand exists only in the heads of people on the UK left. it's their vanity invention of how they see themselves.
for the rest of the world we still we have bad teeth, wear bowler hats and live in villages with Miss Marple. it's indifferent food, cold stand offishness and the pursuit of money.
Speak for yourself sunshine!
get out and travel more, you might get a surprise.
Please get with it: the destruction of our financial services, decades of economic stagnation and decline in our international influence is but a small price to pay for Freedom! And we'll also get less immigration.
Woe woe and thrice woe! The end of the world is nigh!
Christ what a lot of crying on this board, the decision has been taken for good or ill, move the fuck on.
On financial services: it's almost as if they're setting out to influence* the strategy and negotiations of the UK Government.
*Obviously, this is fine. But it does mean we shouldn't necessarily take the Exodus of Money as gospel truth. After all, neither New York nor Singapore are members of the EU.
language is the strategic advantage that can't be replicated. Arabs and Chinese don't want to do business in French or German. If the City moves wholesale then it will lose that business.
A deal with Dublin strikes me as the most likely outcome. It intrigues me that Ireland has not been as publicly aggressive as France and (to a lesser extent) Frankfurt in seeking to attract business from London
why upset your biggest client when taking business from him ?
I think they've done a deal where Dublin will provide a fee-for-service middle office and slice out 5-10% of revenues but most of the front office remains in London
Please get with it: the destruction of our financial services, decades of economic stagnation and decline in our international influence is but a small price to pay for Freedom! And we'll also get less immigration.
Woe woe and thrice woe! The end of the world is nigh!
Christ what a lot of crying on this board, the decision has been taken for good or ill, move the fuck on.
I'm with you all the way. Tho one'll notice
Financial services are one thing (though I expect the moves to be piecemeal, as hiring stops here, natural wastage occurs and new jobs are in Frankfurt and Geneva), but the Brexiteers risk trashing the brand in a Trump like orgy of narcisstic pique. Our cultural brand is a large part of the value of our exports in design, fashion, music, TV etc; the damage to these could be very significant.
You make a very good point. The value of the British brand in most of the creative and cultural fields was second to none. We punched way above our weight. The damage that was done to the UK brand by the vote alone is incalculable.
From representing an outgoing creative powerhouse 'brand UK' has become a symbol of UKIP 'Little Englanders'. Why should those of us in the service sector accept the damage to our livelihoods and the country's livelihood by the votes of some very ignorant people who have no idea of the implications of what they were doing or how the country makes its money.
Bollocks
the "cool britannia" brand exists only in the heads of people on the UK left. it's their vanity invention of how they see themselves.
for the rest of the world we still we have bad teeth, wear bowler hats and live in villages with Miss Marple. it's indifferent food, cold stand offishness and the pursuit of money.
You're talking at cross purposes. While it may be true that the average citizen living in the sticks in Alabama or Novosibirsk might think that way, that is very different from our commercial brand in the minds of people who control large budgets.
people who control budgets dont give a shit about happy clappy multi culti nirvana, except at the margins. Ive dealt with enough non-UK executives over the years to know how they see the english ( being Irish they open up more ) and it's not in the way you'd like it to be.
"In my 20 years of political activism, I cannot remember a time when we had such an unshared sense of who we are as a nation."
No: for the last 20 years the people who disagreed with her we're ignored. That's not the same as not existing
And inasmuch as they were conscious that they were living in a country in which their views were ignored, we did have a 'shared sense of who we are as a nation', no?
The challenge is that now they think they are living in a country where they have the whip hand, although they don't. This cognitive dissonance was wound up by the likes of Gove and Johnson, and it will violently uncoil in their faces in due course.
On topic, as a novelty, I think it's going to depend on how close the result is on election night in the US. If he loses 55-45 I think Trump will be gracious in defeat - he is capable of being gracious and sincere - as no amount of allegations of a rigged ballot will make any difference if he is 10 points or more down.
Before the EU Referendum, I said that what people said in the heat of campaigns and what they said once the votes had been cast were rarely the same - the conflict and the rancour is set aside in favour of conciliation and unity. Trump will, if he loses badly, urge that conciliation and unity from his supporters - whether they wish to provide it is another matter but that's not the basis of the bet.
If it's 2000-type close, Trump has every right to go through the full electoral process in terms of recounts and checking (as does HRC of course). He may warn against cheating or dubious tactics as he has a right to do but he won't be in effect conceding simply because he hasn't lost.
Gore accepted the result once the process of checking those hanging chads had been completed and verified but he had every right to have that process carried out and to wait for its outcome and to not concede until the process had been completed.
Strangely, some of the best speeches I've ever heard from politicians come in the wake of defeat - both John Major in 1997 and Nick Clegg in 2015 were superb as was Gordon Brown in 2010.
Please get with it: the destruction of our financial services, decades of economic stagnation and decline in our international influence is but a small price to pay for Freedom! And we'll also get less immigration.
Woe woe and thrice woe! The end of the world is nigh!
Christ what a lot of crying on this board, the decision has been taken for good or ill, move the fuck on.
I'm with you all the way. Tho one'll notice
You make a very good point. The value of the British brand in most of the creative and cultural fields was second to none. We punched way above our weight. The damage that was done to the UK brand by the vote alone is incalculable.
From representing an outgoing creative powerhouse 'brand UK' has become a symbol of UKIP 'Little Englanders'. Why should those of us in the service sector accept the damage to our livelihoods and the country's livelihood by the votes of some very ignorant people who have no idea of the implications of what they were doing or how the country makes its money.
Bollocks
the "cool britannia" brand exists only in the heads of people on the UK left. it's their vanity invention of how they see themselves.
for the rest of the world we still we have bad teeth, wear bowler hats and live in villages with Miss Marple. it's indifferent food, cold stand offishness and the pursuit of money.
You're talking at cross purposes. While it may be true that the average citizen living in the sticks in Alabama or Novosibirsk might think that way, that is very different from our commercial brand in the minds of people who control large budgets.
people who control budgets dont give a shit about happy clappy multi culti nirvana, except at the margins. Ive dealt with enough non-UK executives over the years to know how they see the english ( being Irish they open up more ) and it's not in the way you'd like it to be.
Rather reminds me of someone involved in winning contracts from the public sector preferred Labour in power a good few years back.
With the tories, lots of contract conditions to keep your price down and keep tabs on you.
Not the least reason for continued bickering about what happens next is that much the same appears to being conducted, sometimes quite publicly, within the cabinet. When there's no settled policy, it seems rather otiose to argue that those who voted remain ought just to shut up.
Cabinet members ticking each other off publically, and being slapped down by the PM does indeed give the impression that there is no plan.
I have not seen any evidence that there is a plan, or that May is capable of forming one. In the absence of a plan the outcome defaults to Hard Brexit. Get used to it.
Probably best.
Why stay in an organisation that cant deliver a trade deal with the US or Canada or anywhere else for that matter.
Even the germans are now coming to realise the Brits had a point.
the Walloonies are holding them by the balls and brand EUrope is being trashed by its failure to deliver deals.
Im beginning to recognise that there is no alternative to hard brexit. Its going to be more difficult, especially in the short term but, so be it. What we are regaining is far more precious than gold sovereigns - and if we really take a hit then the welfare state will go which in the long term is the best thing we can do for the underclass who will have to stop being like sheep and learn to think for themselves again.
Life before the welfare state? There is fortunately a programme looking at that right now:
The Victorian Slum, 1. The 1860s: www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b07zd5pm via @bbciplayer
Mr. Sandpit, interesting suggestion. I think I checked the (four, or so) previous races. Half had safety cars, although one of those, I think, was very wet. Might be worth a look.
My initial ideas all had dire odds so I'm having to search for something. I think more coffee may be required.
From a quick look at Betfair:
No safely car : 1.87 - was wet last year, more use of VSC this year for debris collection and trucks on track. Ricciardo to lead first lap, 4.3 Rosberg to lead the first lap, 4.7 (value there surely!) Verstappen, winner w/o Hamilton, 6 Button to score points, 2.7
"In my 20 years of political activism, I cannot remember a time when we had such an unshared sense of who we are as a nation."
No: for the last 20 years the people who disagreed with her we're ignored. That's not the same as not existing
Rubbish. They have dominated tabloids during the whole time. This "you couldn't talk shot immigration" thing is easily disproven by glancing at the Daily Mail archive
(CiF is imploding with the cognitive dissonance about the "racist" kippers having a brown person in charge)
Yet anyone with any knowledge of Asian communities quickly realises that racism is not confined to white people.
Being married to an asian, having adopted two asians, and living and doing business in an asian country I am more qualified than most in that regard. Most people that comment on CiF, not so much.
"In my 20 years of political activism, I cannot remember a time when we had such an unshared sense of who we are as a nation."
No: for the last 20 years the people who disagreed with her we're ignored. That's not the same as not existing
Rubbish. They have dominated tabloids during the whole time. This "you couldn't talk shot immigration" thing is easily disproven by glancing at the Daily Mail archive
You couldnt talk immigration in the places that matter. Central and Local Government, the civil service and the professions. If you didnt go with the received view you were at best an outsider with little chance of promotion and at worst removed/fired.
On topic, as a novelty, I think it's going to depend on how close the result is on election night in the US. If he loses 55-45 I think Trump will be gracious in defeat - he is capable of being gracious and sincere - as no amount of allegations of a rigged ballot will make any difference if he is 10 points or more down.
Before the EU Referendum, I said that what people said in the heat of campaigns and what they said once the votes had been cast were rarely the same - the conflict and the rancour is set aside in favour of conciliation and unity. Trump will, if he loses badly, urge that conciliation and unity from his supporters - whether they wish to provide it is another matter but that's not the basis of the bet.
If it's 2000-type close, Trump has every right to go through the full electoral process in terms of recounts and checking (as does HRC of course). He may warn against cheating or dubious tactics as he has a right to do but he won't be in effect conceding simply because he hasn't lost.
Gore accepted the result once the process of checking those hanging chads had been completed and verified but he had every right to have that process carried out and to wait for its outcome and to not concede until the process had been completed.
Strangely, some of the best speeches I've ever heard from politicians come in the wake of defeat - both John Major in 1997 and Nick Clegg in 2015 were superb as was Gordon Brown in 2010.
Agree on the last point.
The problem with Trump is that everyone said he would change after getting the nomination - because candidates always do - except that in his case he just carried on being Trump. He seems too far gone and too used to getting his own way to have his behaviour influenced by anyone else.
Not the least reason for continued bickering about what happens next is that much the same appears to being conducted, sometimes quite publicly, within the cabinet. When there's no settled policy, it seems rather otiose to argue that those who voted remain ought just to shut up.
Cabinet members ticking each other off publically, and being slapped down by the PM does indeed give the impression that there is no plan.
I have not seen any evidence that there is a plan, or that May is capable of forming one. In the absence of a plan the outcome defaults to Hard Brexit. Get used to it.
Probably best.
Why stay in an organisation that cant deliver a trade deal with the US or Canada or anywhere else for that matter.
Even the germans are now coming to realise the Brits had a point.
the Walloonies are holding them by the balls and brand EUrope is being trashed by its failure to deliver deals.
Im beginning to recognise that there is no alternative to hard brexit. Its going to be more difficult, especially in the short term but, so be it. What we are regaining is far more precious than gold sovereigns - and if we really take a hit then the welfare state will go which in the long term is the best thing we can do for the underclass who will have to stop being like sheep and learn to think for themselves again.
There will be more tools available to do so after Hexit. The question is whether those tools would be used effectively.
Isn't that the point. If a government of the future does not do what the electorate want they can be voted out. At present there are swaths of policy where the electorate has no choice but to accept what they are given, which is worked out in Brussels and may not be in the best interest of the UK.
As for HMG not having a settled plan, how reasonable is it to expect them to have one? Leaving the EU and the negotiations that will happen is immensely complex. No work was done on contingency planning for leaving because Cameron and Co would not allow it. So work only really got going once the new PM was in place. What was that, three months ago? Including July and August when a lot of the key players, here and in foreign chancelleries, will have been on leave. There are going to lots of different views in cabinet, in the CS, and lots of preparatory discussions with foreign governments. Position and option papers will need to be written, considered in cabinet and umpteen committees, arguments made. Then and only then will HMG come to a settled view.
Anyone with any experience of how government actually works will not be in the least surprised that no settled plan has been arrived at yet. In fact most would be horrified if that were the case.
Now, having joined with the Dr Sox, and some others, in restating my opinion for the umpteenth time I am going to go and do something more useful and enjoyable with my time. I really can't be bothered to spend time reading yet another thread where the same people once again express the same opinions.
"In my 20 years of political activism, I cannot remember a time when we had such an unshared sense of who we are as a nation."
Brexit did not come out of nowhere. For the past 20 years, many perhaps most, of Seema Malhotra's fellow citizens did not share her sense of who we are as a nation. However, her values were hegemonic for most of that period. Now, they aren't.
The problem with Trump is that everyone said he would change after getting the nomination - because candidates always do - except that in his case he just carried on being Trump. He seems too far gone and too used to getting his own way to have his behaviour influenced by anyone else.
This is why many businessmen make such bad politicians. They are used to being in command, having control and people hanging on their every word. In politics, you have to argue, convince and persuade and you are at best primus inter pares rather than supreme overlord.
It's my experience some company directors have problems formulating basic arguments and responding to challenges because, put simply, they aren't used to it.
You make a very good point. The value of the British brand in most of the creative and cultural fields was second to none. We punched way above our weight. The damage that was done to the UK brand by the vote alone is incalculable.
From representing an outgoing creative powerhouse 'brand UK' has become a symbol of UKIP 'Little Englanders'. Why should those of us in the service sector accept the damage to our livelihoods and the country's livelihood by the votes of some very ignorant people who have no idea of the implications of what they were doing or how the country makes its money.
Bollocks
the "cool britannia" brand exists only in the heads of people on the UK left. it's their vanity invention of how they see themselves.
for the rest of the world we still we have bad teeth, wear bowler hats and live in villages with Miss Marple. it's indifferent food, cold stand offishness and the pursuit of money.
You're talking at cross purposes. While it may be true that the average citizen living in the sticks in Alabama or Novosibirsk might think that way, that is very different from our commercial brand in the minds of people who control large budgets.
Several points coming out of this: 1) The - and I hate this word, but I can't think of any better - perceived coolness of Britain is a good thing to have for our international reputation. But this hasn't suddenly changed as a result of the referendum. We are the same mix of people we were six months ago. I suspect you get the same mix of attitudes in any major European country; although Britain is probably slightly more liberal for two reasons: larger population in big cities and less influence of the church. 2) Why should a constitutional decision affect 1)? There's nothing particularly cool, or otherwise, about the EU. It's a trading bloc, not the Beatles. Anyone who was voting on whether we want to be Russel Brand or Miss Marple was voting for the wrong reasons. (That's not to say that many weren't voting for reasons that inane.) 3) I seem to remember Britain being fairly well-thought of on this score in the 60s, when we were outside of the EEC.
Not the least reason for continued bickering about what happens next is that much the same appears to being conducted, sometimes quite publicly, within the cabinet. When there's no settled policy, it seems rather otiose to argue that those who voted remain ought just to shut up.
Cabinet members ticking each other off publically, and being slapped down by the PM does indeed give the impression that there is no plan.
I have not seen any evidence that there is a plan, or that May is capable of forming one. In the absence of a plan the outcome defaults to Hard Brexit. Get used to it.
Probably best.
Why stay in an organisation that cant deliver a trade deal with the US or Canada or anywhere else for that matter.
Even the germans are now coming to realise the Brits had a point.
the Walloonies are holding them by the balls and brand EUrope is being trashed by its failure to deliver deals.
Im beginning to recognise that there is no alternative to hard brexit. Its going to be more difficult, especially in the short term but, so be it. What we are regaining is far more precious than gold sovereigns - and if we really take a hit then the welfare state will go which in the long term is the best thing we can do for the underclass who will have to stop being like sheep and learn to think for themselves again.
Pain for other people?
I think Mr Bedfordshire is of the 'who; whom' school of politics.
"In my 20 years of political activism, I cannot remember a time when we had such an unshared sense of who we are as a nation."
No: for the last 20 years the people who disagreed with her we're ignored. That's not the same as not existing
And inasmuch as they were conscious that they were living in a country in which their views were ignored, we did have a 'shared sense of who we are as a nation', no?
The challenge is that now they think they are living in a country where they have the whip hand, although they don't. This cognitive dissonance was wound up by the likes of Gove and Johnson, and it will violently uncoil in their faces in due course.
Nah - I think they didn't really give a monkey for what those prays in London (and i include myself as one) got up to.
The liberal metropolitan mindset took that for a shared sense of nation. They smiled, and passed and paid - but ultimately forgot that the secret people might one day wake.
"In my 20 years of political activism, I cannot remember a time when we had such an unshared sense of who we are as a nation."
No: for the last 20 years the people who disagreed with her we're ignored. That's not the same as not existing
Rubbish. They have dominated tabloids during the whole time. This "you couldn't talk shot immigration" thing is easily disproven by glancing at the Daily Mail archive
Mr. Sandpit, interesting suggestions. I'd probably prefer an each way winner on Verstappen, and don't think Button will get points. The first lap leader odds look weird, though. Ricciardo's 5.5 on Ladbrokes.
Early tip: One stake split between Ricciardo to lead lap 1 (5.5 Ladbrokes) and Rosberg likewise (4.8, Betfair).
"In my 20 years of political activism, I cannot remember a time when we had such an unshared sense of who we are as a nation."
No: for the last 20 years the people who disagreed with her we're ignored. That's not the same as not existing
And inasmuch as they were conscious that they were living in a country in which their views were ignored, we did have a 'shared sense of who we are as a nation', no?
The challenge is that now they think they are living in a country where they have the whip hand, although they don't. This cognitive dissonance was wound up by the likes of Gove and Johnson, and it will violently uncoil in their faces in due course.
Nah - I think they didn't really give a monkey for what those prays in London (and i include myself as one) got up to.
The liberal metropolitan mindset took that for a shared sense of nation. They smiled, and passed and paid - but ultimately forgot that the secret people might one day wake.
Your vision of a country split between the metropolis and the rural poor is equally skewed. You ignore the majority who are in neither category - a blind spot that is just as big as the mindset you believe has been overturned.
Interesting article. I heard of my first bit of post vote racism yesterday. An Italian friend who owns a wine bar was speaking to a representative from a brewery ordering beer. He had to answer several standard questions. His English is reasonable but not perfect and one of the questions he couldn't understand so asked for clarification.
This didn't help much and he heard the lady from the brewery presumably believing her hand was covering the phone saying to a colleague 'When are these foreigners going to be sent home?". When they resumed my friend reminded her that he might be a foreigner but he was also a customer! Flustered she said she wasn't talking about him.........
He said he's never encountered anything like that before and he's been in the UK for 4 years.
Not the least reason for continued bickering about what happens next is that much the same appears to being conducted, sometimes quite publicly, within the cabinet. When there's no settled policy, it seems rather otiose to argue that those who voted remain ought just to shut up.
Cabinet members ticking each other off publically, and being slapped down by the PM does indeed give the impression that there is no plan.
I have not seen any evidence that there is a plan, or that May is capable of forming one. In the absence of a plan the outcome defaults to Hard Brexit. Get used to it.
Probably best.
Why stay in an organisation that cant deliver a trade deal with the US or Canada or anywhere else for that matter.
Even the germans are now coming to realise the Brits had a point.
the Walloonies are holding them by the balls and brand EUrope is being trashed by its failure to deliver deals.
Im beginning to recognise that there is no alternative to hard brexit. Its going to be more difficult, especially in the short term but, so be it. What we are regaining is far more precious than gold sovereigns - and if we really take a hit then the welfare state will go which in the long term is the best thing we can do for the underclass who will have to stop being like sheep and learn to think for themselves again.
Pain for other people?
I think Mr Bedfordshire is of the 'who; whom' school of politics.
Wow. This says everything about Brexitters sneering attitude towards those the people that voted for Brexit.
Interesting article. I heard of my first bit of post vote racism yesterday. An Italian friend who owns a wine bar was speaking to a representative from a brewery ordering beer. He had to answer several standard questions. His English is reasonable but not perfect and one of the questions he couldn't understand so asked for clarification.
This didn't help much and he heard the lady from the brewery presumably believing her hand was covering the phone saying to a colleague 'When are these foreigners going to be sent home?". When they resumed my friend reminded her that he might be a foreigner but he was also a customer! Flustered she said she wasn't talking about him.........
He said he's never encountered anything like that before and he's been in the UK for 4 years.
Pah
that happened just about every day when I worked in France.
Not the least reason for continued bickering about what happens next is that much the same appears to being conducted, sometimes quite publicly, within the cabinet. When there's no settled policy, it seems rather otiose to argue that those who voted remain ought just to shut up.
Cabinet members ticking each other off publically, and being slapped down by the PM does indeed give the impression that there is no plan.
I have not seen any evidence that there is a plan, or that May is capable of forming one. In the absence of a plan the outcome defaults to Hard Brexit. Get used to it.
Probably best.
Why stay in an organisation that cant deliver a trade deal with the US or Canada or anywhere else for that matter.
Even the germans are now coming to realise the Brits had a point.
the Walloonies are holding them by the balls and brand EUrope is being trashed by its failure to deliver deals.
Im beginning to recognise that there is no alternative to hard brexit. Its going to be more difficult, especially in the short term but, so be it. What we are regaining is far more precious than gold sovereigns - and if we really take a hit then the welfare state will go which in the long term is the best thing we can do for the underclass who will have to stop being like sheep and learn to think for themselves again.
Pain for other people?
I think Mr Bedfordshire is of the 'who; whom' school of politics.
I think that who/whom is a widely-shared philosophy. During the Blair/Brown years, centre-right voters were on the receiving end of several well-aimed pokes in the eye.
Not the least reason for continued bickering about what happens next is that much the same appears to being conducted, sometimes quite publicly, within the cabinet. When there's no settled policy, it seems rather otiose to argue that those who voted remain ought just to shut up.
Cabinet members ticking each other off publically, and being slapped down by the PM does indeed give the impression that there is no plan.
I have not seen any evidence that there is a plan, or that May is capable of forming one. In the absence of a plan the outcome defaults to Hard Brexit. Get used to it.
Probably best.
Why stay in an organisation that cant deliver a trade deal with the US or Canada or anywhere else for that matter.
Even the germans are now coming to realise the Brits had a point.
the Walloonies are holding them by the balls and brand EUrope is being trashed by its failure to deliver deals.
Im beginning to recognise that there is no alternative to hard brexit. Its going to be more difficult, especially in the short term but, so be it. What we are regaining is far more precious than gold sovereigns - and if we really take a hit then the welfare state will go which in the long term is the best thing we can do for the underclass who will have to stop being like sheep and learn to think for themselves again.
Pain for other people?
I think Mr Bedfordshire is of the 'who; whom' school of politics.
Wow. This says everything about Brexitters sneering attitude towards those the people that voted for Brexit.
I think Mr B's "Brexit may flush the welfare state down the toilet but, hey, it'll be good for them in the long run" is the worst of the two attitudes, to be honest.
On financial services: it's almost as if they're setting out to influence* the strategy and negotiations of the UK Government.
*Obviously, this is fine. But it does mean we shouldn't necessarily take the Exodus of Money as gospel truth. After all, neither New York nor Singapore are members of the EU.
language is the strategic advantage that can't be replicated. Arabs and Chinese don't want to do business in French or German. If the City moves wholesale then it will lose that business.
A deal with Dublin strikes me as the most likely outcome. It intrigues me that Ireland has not been as publicly aggressive as France and (to a lesser extent) Frankfurt in seeking to attract business from London
On financial services: it's almost as if they're setting out to influence* the strategy and negotiations of the UK Government.
*Obviously, this is fine. But it does mean we shouldn't necessarily take the Exodus of Money as gospel truth. After all, neither New York nor Singapore are members of the EU.
language is the strategic advantage that can't be replicated. Arabs and Chinese don't want to do business in French or German. If the City moves wholesale then it will lose that business.
A deal with Dublin strikes me as the most likely outcome. It intrigues me that Ireland has not been as publicly aggressive as France and (to a lesser extent) Frankfurt in seeking to attract business from London
why upset your biggest client when taking business from him ?
I think they've done a deal where Dublin will provide a fee-for-service middle office and slice out 5-10% of revenues but most of the front office remains in London
In my view, there will be a deal with Dublin: English-speaking, in the EU and the eurozone. In exchange, EIRE will offer cooperation on customs and border control for the UK.
I expect both will look for transport infrastructure upgrades between London and Dublin, which might also have the benefit of boosting the economy of South Wales, and I will be looking for this in future budget statements.
This didn't help much and he heard the lady from the brewery presumably believing her hand was covering the phone saying to a colleague 'When are these foreigners going to be sent home?". When they resumed my friend reminded her that he might be a foreigner but he was also a customer! Flustered she said she wasn't talking about him.........
Left liberal confuses race and nationality shocker.
Mr. Sandpit, interesting suggestions. I'd probably prefer an each way winner on Verstappen, and don't think Button will get points. The first lap leader odds look weird, though. Ricciardo's 5.5 on Ladbrokes.
Early tip: One stake split between Ricciardo to lead lap 1 (5.5 Ladbrokes) and Rosberg likewise (4.8, Betfair).
I'm going to follow the two bets on the lead lap, with a cover of Hamilton to win the race, 1.77 on Betfair. Am already on the no SC.
Button was running in the top 10 all weekend, didn't get a clean lap in qualifying due to traffic. I think he'll move up from 17th.
Not the least reason for continued bickering about what happens next is that much the same appears to being conducted, sometimes quite publicly, within the cabinet. When there's no settled policy, it seems rather otiose to argue that those who voted remain ought just to shut up.
Cabinet members ticking each other off publically, and being slapped down by the PM does indeed give the impression that there is no plan.
I have not seen any evidence that there is a plan, or that May is capable of forming one. In the absence of a plan the outcome defaults to Hard Brexit. Get used to it.
Probably best.
Why stay in an organisation that cant deliver a trade deal with the US or Canada or anywhere else for that matter.
Even the germans are now coming to realise the Brits had a point.
the Walloonies are holding them by the balls and brand EUrope is being trashed by its failure to deliver deals.
Im beginning to recognise that there is no alternative to hard brexit. Its going to be more difficult, especially in the short term but, so be it. What we are regaining is far more precious than gold sovereigns - and if we really take a hit then the welfare state will go which in the long term is the best thing we can do for the underclass who will have to stop being like sheep and learn to think for themselves again.
Pain for other people?
I think Mr Bedfordshire is of the 'who; whom' school of politics.
I think that who/whom is a widely-shared philosophy.
that happened just about every day when I worked in France.
So the UK is "only as bad as France"
Awesome...
Dont be silly, France is miles worse.
The stupidity of people claiming that culturally brand UK is damaged and then saying bankers will go to Franceas a result - a country with 30+% of the voters backing the FN, a major problem with its muslim minority and where entrenched nationalism is taught at school is just laughable.
What's her view on the intolerance of homosexuality within certain communities, or the intolerance of harassment of those going about their business of buying and selling alcohol in certain parts of east London?
As I suspected when I clicked on the link and 'Guardian' popped up, such intolerance is all the fault of the Leavers. Who are all perfectly dreadful people, of course.
The lack of self-awareness and cognitive dissonance of those in Remainia never ceases to astonish me.
On financial services: it's almost as if they're setting out to influence* the strategy and negotiations of the UK Government.
*Obviously, this is fine. But it does mean we shouldn't necessarily take the Exodus of Money as gospel truth. After all, neither New York nor Singapore are members of the EU.
language is the strategic advantage that can't be replicated. Arabs and Chinese don't want to do business in French or German. If the City moves wholesale then it will lose that business.
A deal with Dublin strikes me as the most likely outcome. It intrigues me that Ireland has not been as publicly aggressive as France and (to a lesser extent) Frankfurt in seeking to attract business from London
On financial services: it's almost as if they're setting out to influence* the strategy and negotiations of the UK Government.
*Obviously, this is fine. But it does mean we shouldn't necessarily take the Exodus of Money as gospel truth. After all, neither New York nor Singapore are members of the EU.
language is the strategic advantage that can't be replicated. Arabs and Chinese don't want to do business in French or German. If the City moves wholesale then it will lose that business.
A deal with Dublin strikes me as the most likely outcome. It intrigues me that Ireland has not been as publicly aggressive as France and (to a lesser extent) Frankfurt in seeking to attract business from London
why upset your biggest client when taking business from him ?
I think they've done a deal where Dublin will provide a fee-for-service middle office and slice out 5-10% of revenues but most of the front office remains in London
In my view, there will be a deal with Dublin: English-speaking, in the EU and the eurozone. In exchange, EIRE will offer cooperation on customs and border control for the UK.
I expect both will look for transport infrastructure upgrades between London and Dublin, which might also have the benefit of boosting the economy of South Wales, and I will be looking for this in future budget statements.
and passports.
LOTS of UK and Irish citizens can claimed each others nationality
Interesting article. I heard of my first bit of post vote racism yesterday. An Italian friend who owns a wine bar was speaking to a representative from a brewery ordering beer. He had to answer several standard questions. His English is reasonable but not perfect and one of the questions he couldn't understand so asked for clarification.
This didn't help much and he heard the lady from the brewery presumably believing her hand was covering the phone saying to a colleague 'When are these foreigners going to be sent home?". When they resumed my friend reminded her that he might be a foreigner but he was also a customer! Flustered she said she wasn't talking about him.........
He said he's never encountered anything like that before and he's been in the UK for 4 years.
Undeniable that Brexit has given many the license to express the worst kinds of opinions.
And let us not forget Jo Cox was murdered by a Brexiting madman.
It is very poor show for Brexiters to deny this (though they are not of course responsible for it).
that happened just about every day when I worked in France.
So the UK is "only as bad as France"
Awesome...
Dont be silly, France is miles worse.
The stupidity of people claiming that culturally brand UK is damaged and then saying bankers will go to Franceas a result - a country with 30+% of the voters backing the FN, a major problem with its muslim minority and where entrenched nationalism is taught at school is just laughable.
No, No, No... They will go there for the enlightened labour laws and business friendly government policies and taxation....
that happened just about every day when I worked in France.
So the UK is "only as bad as France"
Awesome...
Dont be silly, France is miles worse.
The stupidity of people claiming that culturally brand UK is damaged and then saying bankers will go to Franceas a result - a country with 30+% of the voters backing the FN, a major problem with its muslim minority and where entrenched nationalism is taught at school is just laughable.
No, No, No... They will go there for the enlightened labour laws and business friendly government policies and taxation....
On a more cheerful note, the Bangladesh test is proving unexpectedly excellent. I think they have probably lost one wicket too many, but are having a serious fling at a demanding fourth innings target. If only more pitches were like this.
Interesting article. I heard of my first bit of post vote racism yesterday. An Italian friend who owns a wine bar was speaking to a representative from a brewery ordering beer. He had to answer several standard questions. His English is reasonable but not perfect and one of the questions he couldn't understand so asked for clarification.
This didn't help much and he heard the lady from the brewery presumably believing her hand was covering the phone saying to a colleague 'When are these foreigners going to be sent home?". When they resumed my friend reminded her that he might be a foreigner but he was also a customer! Flustered she said she wasn't talking about him.........
He said he's never encountered anything like that before and he's been in the UK for 4 years.
Undeniable that Brexit has given many the license to express the worst kinds of opinions.
And let us not forget Jo Cox was murdered by a Brexiting madman.
It is very poor show for Brexiters to deny this (though they are not of course responsible for it).
"In my 20 years of political activism, I cannot remember a time when we had such an unshared sense of who we are as a nation."
Brexit did not come out of nowhere. For the past 20 years, many perhaps most, of Seema Malhotra's fellow citizens did not share her sense of who we are as a nation. However, her values were hegemonic for most of that period. Now, they aren't.
Interesting article. I heard of my first bit of post vote racism yesterday. An Italian friend who owns a wine bar was speaking to a representative from a brewery ordering beer. He had to answer several standard questions. His English is reasonable but not perfect and one of the questions he couldn't understand so asked for clarification.
This didn't help much and he heard the lady from the brewery presumably believing her hand was covering the phone saying to a colleague 'When are these foreigners going to be sent home?". When they resumed my friend reminded her that he might be a foreigner but he was also a customer! Flustered she said she wasn't talking about him.........
He said he's never encountered anything like that before and he's been in the UK for 4 years.
Undeniable that Brexit has given many the license to express the worst kinds of opinions.
And let us not forget Jo Cox was murdered by a Brexiting madman.
It is very poor show for Brexiters to deny this (though they are not of course responsible for it).
"In my 20 years of political activism, I cannot remember a time when we had such an unshared sense of who we are as a nation."
No: for the last 20 years the people who disagreed with her we're ignored. That's not the same as not existing
Rubbish. They have dominated tabloids during the whole time. This "you couldn't talk shot immigration" thing is easily disproven by glancing at the Daily Mail archive
You couldnt talk immigration in the places that matter. Central and Local Government, the civil service and the professions. If you didnt go with the received view you were at best an outsider with little chance of promotion and at worst removed/fired.
I'm pretty sure my Employers have worked out my position on the EU referendum wasn't the same as theirs.
Interesting article. I heard of my first bit of post vote racism yesterday. An Italian friend who owns a wine bar was speaking to a representative from a brewery ordering beer. He had to answer several standard questions. His English is reasonable but not perfect and one of the questions he couldn't understand so asked for clarification.
This didn't help much and he heard the lady from the brewery presumably believing her hand was covering the phone saying to a colleague 'When are these foreigners going to be sent home?". When they resumed my friend reminded her that he might be a foreigner but he was also a customer! Flustered she said she wasn't talking about him.........
He said he's never encountered anything like that before and he's been in the UK for 4 years.
Undeniable that Brexit has given many the license to express the worst kinds of opinions.
And let us not forget Jo Cox was murdered by a Brexiting madman.
It is very poor show for Brexiters to deny this (though they are not of course responsible for it).
"In my 20 years of political activism, I cannot remember a time when we had such an unshared sense of who we are as a nation."
Brexit did not come out of nowhere. For the past 20 years, many perhaps most, of Seema Malhotra's fellow citizens did not share her sense of who we are as a nation. However, her values were hegemonic for most of that period. Now, they aren't.
Precisely so.
I can appreciate how someone feels bereft when they're convinced that history is on their side, and then it turns out it isn't.
"In my 20 years of political activism, I cannot remember a time when we had such an unshared sense of who we are as a nation."
No: for the last 20 years the people who disagreed with her we're ignored. That's not the same as not existing
And inasmuch as they were conscious that they were living in a country in which their views were ignored, we did have a 'shared sense of who we are as a nation', no?
The challenge is that now they think they are living in a country where they have the whip hand, although they don't. This cognitive dissonance was wound up by the likes of Gove and Johnson, and it will violently uncoil in their faces in due course.
Nah - I think they didn't really give a monkey for what those prays in London (and i include myself as one) got up to.
The liberal metropolitan mindset took that for a shared sense of nation. They smiled, and passed and paid - but ultimately forgot that the secret people might one day wake.
Your vision of a country split between the metropolis and the rural poor is equally skewed. You ignore the majority who are in neither category - a blind spot that is just as big as the mindset you believe has been overturned.
I'm not splitting between the metropolis and the rural poor. Splitting between London and the rest. (And, obviously, not 100% of people in each area buy into the respective mindset)
On a more cheerful note, the Bangladesh test is proving unexpectedly excellent. I think they have probably lost one wicket too many, but are having a serious fling at a demanding fourth innings target. If only more pitches were like this.
I'm really glad that the test is nicely poised. I remember when I was going back and forth to Bangladesh some twenty plus years ago, it seemed we could have had anything we wanted in the negotiations if only we could have delivered the England team to play a test in Bangladesh.
Well, that - and some hefty bribes. So the deal could not be done. Bloody cricketers.....
Incidentally, No Safety Car is evens at Ladbrokes.
Not seeing much beyond the half-Sandpit split tip.
Another thought. RB are splitting their strategy with Max following the Mercs in starting on the softs and possibly trying for one stop or rather than two. Daniil, on the other hand, starts on the supetsofts and might try a gonzo 3-stop strategy. Worth a couple of quid at 11 for the win, it will either work or it won't, although they came very close to pulling off the same trick in Singapore.
"In my 20 years of political activism, I cannot remember a time when we had such an unshared sense of who we are as a nation."
No: for the last 20 years the people who disagreed with her we're ignored. That's not the same as not existing
And inasmuch as they were conscious that they were living in a country in which their views were ignored, we did have a 'shared sense of who we are as a nation', no?
The challenge is that now they think they are living in a country where they have the whip hand, although they don't. This cognitive dissonance was wound up by the likes of Gove and Johnson, and it will violently uncoil in their faces in due course.
Nah - I think they didn't really give a monkey for what those prays in London (and i include myself as one) got up to.
The liberal metropolitan mindset took that for a shared sense of nation. They smiled, and passed and paid - but ultimately forgot that the secret people might one day wake.
Your vision of a country split between the metropolis and the rural poor is equally skewed. You ignore the majority who are in neither category - a blind spot that is just as big as the mindset you believe has been overturned.
I'm not splitting between the metropolis and the rural poor. Splitting between London and the rest. (And, obviously, not 100% of people in each area buy into the respective mindset)
The divisions never really healed from the 1640s; it was always only a matter of time before they broke out again.
'MEP Mario Borghezio set the ball rolling in May by claiming that [black minister] Kyenge would impose "tribal conditions" on Italy and help form a "bongo-bongo" administration. Africans, he added for good measure, had "not produced great genes".'
'According to the Corriere della Sera, which reported the event, [former minister] added: "I love animals – bears and wolves, as is known – but when I see the pictures of Kyenge I cannot but think of the features of an orangutan, even if I'm not saying she is one."'
Let us pray that Itexit never happens. Italy might develop a serious racism problem if it did.
Not the least reason for continued bickering about what happens next is that much the same appears to being conducted, sometimes quite publicly, within the cabinet. When there's no settled policy, it seems rather otiose to argue that those who voted remain ought just to shut up.
Cabinet members ticking each other off publically, and being slapped down by the PM does indeed give the impression that there is no plan.
I have not seen any evidence that there is a plan, or that May is capable of forming one. In the absence of a plan the outcome defaults to Hard Brexit. Get used to it.
If it has to be it has to be. Sod them and their freedom of movement danegeld
As Kipling wrote:
And that is called paying the Dane-geld; But we've proved it again and again, That if once you have paid him the Dane-geld You never get rid of the Dane. Because he'll start a small business And maybe get a flat in Wood Green
Interesting article. I heard of my first bit of post vote racism yesterday. An Italian friend who owns a wine bar was speaking to a representative from a brewery ordering beer. He had to answer several standard questions. His English is reasonable but not perfect and one of the questions he couldn't understand so asked for clarification.
This didn't help much and he heard the lady from the brewery presumably believing her hand was covering the phone saying to a colleague 'When are these foreigners going to be sent home?". When they resumed my friend reminded her that he might be a foreigner but he was also a customer! Flustered she said she wasn't talking about him.........
He said he's never encountered anything like that before and he's been in the UK for 4 years.
Undeniable that Brexit has given many the license to express the worst kinds of opinions.
And let us not forget Jo Cox was murdered by a Brexiting madman.
It is very poor show for Brexiters to deny this (though they are not of course responsible for it).
I denied nothing. Remainers it turns out are just as nasty. What you are doing is calling the kettle black.
It always seems to be Remainers who encounter the darkest and most lurid examples of racial abuse in our post Brexit world.
I work with many Europeans in my office, and my wife is Bulgarian and has an eclectic mix of international friends, none of whom have encountered or complained of any.
One English person sent her a private email mourning and lambasting the result in Roger-like terms. She had to respond politely pointing out she voted Leave, and why.
Interesting article. I heard of my first bit of post vote racism yesterday. An Italian friend who owns a wine bar was speaking to a representative from a brewery ordering beer. He had to answer several standard questions. His English is reasonable but not perfect and one of the questions he couldn't understand so asked for clarification.
This didn't help much and he heard the lady from the brewery presumably believing her hand was covering the phone saying to a colleague 'When are these foreigners going to be sent home?". When they resumed my friend reminded her that he might be a foreigner but he was also a customer! Flustered she said she wasn't talking about him.........
He said he's never encountered anything like that before and he's been in the UK for 4 years.
Undeniable that Brexit has given many the license to express the worst kinds of opinions.
And let us not forget Jo Cox was murdered by a Brexiting madman.
It is very poor show for Brexiters to deny this (though they are not of course responsible for it).
That's a very poor show by you.
All we know is that Jo Cox was murdered by a madman. We know nothing about his reasons.
Interesting article. I heard of my first bit of post vote racism yesterday. An Italian friend who owns a wine bar was speaking to a representative from a brewery ordering beer. He had to answer several standard questions. His English is reasonable but not perfect and one of the questions he couldn't understand so asked for clarification.
This didn't help much and he heard the lady from the brewery presumably believing her hand was covering the phone saying to a colleague 'When are these foreigners going to be sent home?". When they resumed my friend reminded her that he might be a foreigner but he was also a customer! Flustered she said she wasn't talking about him.........
He said he's never encountered anything like that before and he's been in the UK for 4 years.
Undeniable that Brexit has given many the license to express the worst kinds of opinions.
And let us not forget Jo Cox was murdered by a Brexiting madman.
It is very poor show for Brexiters to deny this (though they are not of course responsible for it).
I denied nothing. Remainers it turns out are just as nasty. What you are doing is calling the kettle black.
Are they?
Besides, the problem is not nastiness per se; it's the inability of people to not only to see the other side, but to actively denigrate those on the other side. A side effect of this is accepting excesses of people on your own side, especially when you'd castigate them if they were on the other side.
We see this in politics all the time; from bullying in the Conservative party to Lord Rennard in the Lib Dems, through hard-leftists sending their kids to selective schools.
People are people; more connects us than divides us, whatever our class or life experiences.
Interesting article. I heard of my first bit of post vote racism yesterday. An Italian friend who owns a wine bar was speaking to a representative from a brewery ordering beer. He had to answer several standard questions. His English is reasonable but not perfect and one of the questions he couldn't understand so asked for clarification.
This didn't help much and he heard the lady from the brewery presumably believing her hand was covering the phone saying to a colleague 'When are these foreigners going to be sent home?". When they resumed my friend reminded her that he might be a foreigner but he was also a customer! Flustered she said she wasn't talking about him.........
He said he's never encountered anything like that before and he's been in the UK for 4 years.
Undeniable that Brexit has given many the license to express the worst kinds of opinions.
And let us not forget Jo Cox was murdered by a Brexiting madman.
It is very poor show for Brexiters to deny this (though they are not of course responsible for it).
That's a very poor show by you.
All we know is that Jo Cox was murdered by a madman. We know nothing about his reasons.
Er, I think it's pretty clear he wasn't a liberal lefty looking to extend human rights to quinoa.
I'm not sure it'll work here. Early undercut but that risks traffic and the Red Bull strength is twisty bits rather than the straight (making overtaking trickier).
As an aside, I did mention this (and back it) a few days ago at the moderately longer odds of 13 (each way).
Anyway, the piece is more or less done, will put it up shortly [even though it's mostly the work of Mr. Sandpit ].
"In my 20 years of political activism, I cannot remember a time when we had such an unshared sense of who we are as a nation."
No: for the last 20 years the people who disagreed with her we're ignored. That's not the same as not existing
And inasmuch as they were conscious that they were living in a country in which their views were ignored, we did have a 'shared sense of who we are as a nation', no?
The challenge is that now they think they are living in a country where they have the whip hand, although they don't. This cognitive dissonance was wound up by the likes of Gove and Johnson, and it will violently uncoil in their faces in due course.
Nah - I think they didn't really give a monkey for what those prays in London (and i include myself as one) got up to.
The liberal metropolitan mindset took that for a shared sense of nation. They smiled, and passed and paid - but ultimately forgot that the secret people might one day wake.
Your vision of a country split between the metropolis and the rural poor is equally skewed. You ignore the majority who are in neither category - a blind spot that is just as big as the mindset you believe has been overturned.
I'm not splitting between the metropolis and the rural poor. Splitting between London and the rest. (And, obviously, not 100% of people in each area buy into the respective mindset)
The divisions never really healed from the 1640s; it was always only a matter of time before they broke out again.
Before that really. There were definitelyissues with Flemmish immigrants "stealing our jobs" in the Tudor years
"In my 20 years of political activism, I cannot remember a time when we had such an unshared sense of who we are as a nation."
No: for the last 20 years the people who disagreed with her we're ignored. That's not the same as not existing
And inasmuch as they were conscious that they were living in a country in which their views were ignored, we did have a 'shared sense of who we are as a nation', no?
The challenge is that now they think they are living in a country where they have the whip hand, although they don't. This cognitive dissonance was wound up by the likes of Gove and Johnson, and it will violently uncoil in their faces in due course.
Nah - I think they didn't really give a monkey for what those prays in London (and i include myself as one) got up to.
The liberal metropolitan mindset took that for a shared sense of nation. They smiled, and passed and paid - but ultimately forgot that the secret people might one day wake.
Your vision of a country split between the metropolis and the rural poor is equally skewed. You ignore the majority who are in neither category - a blind spot that is just as big as the mindset you believe has been overturned.
I'm not splitting between the metropolis and the rural poor. Splitting between London and the rest. (And, obviously, not 100% of people in each area buy into the respective mindset)
The divisions never really healed from the 1640s; it was always only a matter of time before they broke out again.
Before that really. There were definitelyissues with Flemmish immigrants "stealing our jobs" in the Tudor years
Questions with only two answers lead to bitterness and hatred, clearly. Suddenly it becomes obvious that the Liberals have for decades been the thin line between us and civil war.
Comments
Why stay in an organisation that cant deliver a trade deal with the US or Canada or anywhere else for that matter.
Even the germans are now coming to realise the Brits had a point.
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/ttip-und-freihandel/kommentar-zu-ceta-blamierte-europaeer-14492117.html
the Walloonies are holding them by the balls and brand EUrope is being trashed by its failure to deliver deals.
Brexit will fail on the one thing that it set out to do. Why am I so sure? Well, because May completely failed to get a grip on non-EU migration during her 6 years in charge of it.
Rawnsley
Go for it!
For those where EU immigration was an issue only in that it was a symptom of a much bigger issue (loss of sovereignty), not so much.
Also when parliament decides the numbers, parliament can be lobbied and their members replaced if they piss the public off enough over immigration. The EU nabobs couldnt be so removed by the British Public.
the "cool britannia" brand exists only in the heads of people on the UK left. it's their vanity invention of how they see themselves.
for the rest of the world we still we have bad teeth, wear bowler hats and live in villages with Miss Marple. it's indifferent food, cold stand offishness and the pursuit of money.
That phrase didn't do Remain much good in the campaign, and it won't do you much good now.
Mr. Sandpit, interesting suggestion. I think I checked the (four, or so) previous races. Half had safety cars, although one of those, I think, was very wet. Might be worth a look.
My initial ideas all had dire odds so I'm having to search for something. I think more coffee may be required.
The challenge is that now they think they are living in a country where they have the whip hand, although they don't. This cognitive dissonance was wound up by the likes of Gove and Johnson, and it will violently uncoil in their faces in due course.
On topic, as a novelty, I think it's going to depend on how close the result is on election night in the US. If he loses 55-45 I think Trump will be gracious in defeat - he is capable of being gracious and sincere - as no amount of allegations of a rigged ballot will make any difference if he is 10 points or more down.
Before the EU Referendum, I said that what people said in the heat of campaigns and what they said once the votes had been cast were rarely the same - the conflict and the rancour is set aside in favour of conciliation and unity. Trump will, if he loses badly, urge that conciliation and unity from his supporters - whether they wish to provide it is another matter but that's not the basis of the bet.
If it's 2000-type close, Trump has every right to go through the full electoral process in terms of recounts and checking (as does HRC of course). He may warn against cheating or dubious tactics as he has a right to do but he won't be in effect conceding simply because he hasn't lost.
Gore accepted the result once the process of checking those hanging chads had been completed and verified but he had every right to have that process carried out and to wait for its outcome and to not concede until the process had been completed.
Strangely, some of the best speeches I've ever heard from politicians come in the wake of defeat - both John Major in 1997 and Nick Clegg in 2015 were superb as was Gordon Brown in 2010.
With the tories, lots of contract conditions to keep your price down and keep tabs on you.
With Labour - a lot of guff about Diversity.
The Victorian Slum, 1. The 1860s: www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b07zd5pm via @bbciplayer
No safely car : 1.87 - was wet last year, more use of VSC this year for debris collection and trucks on track.
Ricciardo to lead first lap, 4.3
Rosberg to lead the first lap, 4.7 (value there surely!)
Verstappen, winner w/o Hamilton, 6
Button to score points, 2.7
The problem with Trump is that everyone said he would change after getting the nomination - because candidates always do - except that in his case he just carried on being Trump. He seems too far gone and too used to getting his own way to have his behaviour influenced by anyone else.
FL - 68.4
OH - 53.7
PA - 86.5
http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/?ex_cid=rrpromo#plus
As for HMG not having a settled plan, how reasonable is it to expect them to have one? Leaving the EU and the negotiations that will happen is immensely complex. No work was done on contingency planning for leaving because Cameron and Co would not allow it. So work only really got going once the new PM was in place. What was that, three months ago? Including July and August when a lot of the key players, here and in foreign chancelleries, will have been on leave. There are going to lots of different views in cabinet, in the CS, and lots of preparatory discussions with foreign governments. Position and option papers will need to be written, considered in cabinet and umpteen committees, arguments made. Then and only then will HMG come to a settled view.
Anyone with any experience of how government actually works will not be in the least surprised that no settled plan has been arrived at yet. In fact most would be horrified if that were the case.
Now, having joined with the Dr Sox, and some others, in restating my opinion for the umpteenth time I am going to go and do something more useful and enjoyable with my time. I really can't be bothered to spend time reading yet another thread where the same people once again express the same opinions.
"La, la, la, I can't hear you..."
It's my experience some company directors have problems formulating basic arguments and responding to challenges because, put simply, they aren't used to it.
1) The - and I hate this word, but I can't think of any better - perceived coolness of Britain is a good thing to have for our international reputation. But this hasn't suddenly changed as a result of the referendum. We are the same mix of people we were six months ago. I suspect you get the same mix of attitudes in any major European country; although Britain is probably slightly more liberal for two reasons: larger population in big cities and less influence of the church.
2) Why should a constitutional decision affect 1)? There's nothing particularly cool, or otherwise, about the EU. It's a trading bloc, not the Beatles. Anyone who was voting on whether we want to be Russel Brand or Miss Marple was voting for the wrong reasons. (That's not to say that many weren't voting for reasons that inane.)
3) I seem to remember Britain being fairly well-thought of on this score in the 60s, when we were outside of the EEC.
The liberal metropolitan mindset took that for a shared sense of nation. They smiled, and passed and paid - but ultimately forgot that the secret people might one day wake.
Clinton 336 .. Trump 202
Clinton Win Probability - Random Drift 97% .. Bayesian 99%
http://election.princeton.edu/electoral-college-map/
Bob Geldof says he might go back to Dublin post Brexit.
Betting PostMr. Sandpit, interesting suggestions. I'd probably prefer an each way winner on Verstappen, and don't think Button will get points. The first lap leader odds look weird, though. Ricciardo's 5.5 on Ladbrokes.
Early tip:
One stake split between Ricciardo to lead lap 1 (5.5 Ladbrokes) and Rosberg likewise (4.8, Betfair).
This didn't help much and he heard the lady from the brewery presumably believing her hand was covering the phone saying to a colleague 'When are these foreigners going to be sent home?". When they resumed my friend reminded her that he might be a foreigner but he was also a customer! Flustered she said she wasn't talking about him.........
He said he's never encountered anything like that before and he's been in the UK for 4 years.
that happened just about every day when I worked in France.
I expect both will look for transport infrastructure upgrades between London and Dublin, which might also have the benefit of boosting the economy of South Wales, and I will be looking for this in future budget statements.
Awesome...
Button was running in the top 10 all weekend, didn't get a clean lap in qualifying due to traffic. I think he'll move up from 17th.
The stupidity of people claiming that culturally brand UK is damaged and then saying bankers will go to Franceas a result - a country with 30+% of the voters backing the FN, a major problem with its muslim minority and where entrenched nationalism is taught at school is just laughable.
The lack of self-awareness and cognitive dissonance of those in Remainia never ceases to astonish me.
LOTS of UK and Irish citizens can claimed each others nationality
Not seeing much beyond the half-Sandpit split tip.
And let us not forget Jo Cox was murdered by a Brexiting madman.
It is very poor show for Brexiters to deny this (though they are not of course responsible for it).
Clinton 303 .. Trump 179 .. Toss-Up 56
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/10/19/politics/road-to-270-electoral-college-map-5-october/index.html
Chauvin was a frenchman
I think they have probably lost one wicket too many, but are having a serious fling at a demanding fourth innings target.
If only more pitches were like this.
Brexiter brutally beaten by Remain voter in row over EU referendum dies hours later
Our relations haven't felt quite as warm since.
Well, that - and some hefty bribes. So the deal could not be done. Bloody cricketers.....
http://www.ibtimes.com/ugly-side-italian-football-blatant-widespread-racism-1935667
'MEP Mario Borghezio set the ball rolling in May by claiming that [black minister] Kyenge would impose "tribal conditions" on Italy and help form a "bongo-bongo" administration. Africans, he added for good measure, had "not produced great genes".'
and
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/14/italian-senator-roberto-calderoli-cecile-kyenge
'According to the Corriere della Sera, which reported the event, [former minister] added: "I love animals – bears and wolves, as is known – but when I see the pictures of
Kyenge I cannot but think of the features of an orangutan, even if I'm not saying she is one."'
Let us pray that Itexit never happens. Italy might develop a serious racism problem if it did.
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/10/21/politics/trump-jr-facts-of-life/index.html
I work with many Europeans in my office, and my wife is Bulgarian and has an eclectic mix of international friends, none of whom have encountered or complained of any.
One English person sent her a private email mourning and lambasting the result in Roger-like terms. She had to respond politely pointing out she voted Leave, and why.
All we know is that Jo Cox was murdered by a madman. We know nothing about his reasons.
Besides, the problem is not nastiness per se; it's the inability of people to not only to see the other side, but to actively denigrate those on the other side. A side effect of this is accepting excesses of people on your own side, especially when you'd castigate them if they were on the other side.
We see this in politics all the time; from bullying in the Conservative party to Lord Rennard in the Lib Dems, through hard-leftists sending their kids to selective schools.
People are people; more connects us than divides us, whatever our class or life experiences.
I'm not sure it'll work here. Early undercut but that risks traffic and the Red Bull strength is twisty bits rather than the straight (making overtaking trickier).
As an aside, I did mention this (and back it) a few days ago at the moderately longer odds of 13 (each way).
Anyway, the piece is more or less done, will put it up shortly [even though it's mostly the work of Mr. Sandpit
Betting PostF1: here's my sleepy pre-race ramble, which largely consists of copy+pasting Mr. Sandpit's ideas
http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2016/10/united-states-pre-race-2016.html