politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The big trend: CON and LAB are still failing to win voters

MaxPB said:

Black_Rook said:

Is there any meaningful constituency - the arch-federalists, residing mainly within the EU institutions, notwithstanding - which views the Euro as a success?

You're talking to one, remember that when discussing things with some of our more motivated Remoaners.

williamglenn said:

MaxPB said:

williamglenn said:

There are two main Leaver shibboleths that will be seen for what they are over time: firstly that the EU is a protectionist block that held back our free trading ways, and secondly that the Euro is a disastrous failure.

The Euro is a failure and the EU is protectionist. Neither of those is controversial.

Ain't groupthink a bitch.

FF43 said:

I'm warming to the Euro, mainly because it has opened up the markets of its members, making them much more export oriented recently, compared with the UK, for example. UK growth in recent years compares with the Eurozone average. There is a wide divergence within the Eurozone. The best performing countries like Germany have grown significantly more than we have.

RobD said:

MaxPB said:

OldKingCole said:

MaxPB said:

williamglenn said:

There are two main Leaver shibboleths that will be seen for what they are over time: firstly that the EU is a protectionist block that held back our free trading ways, and secondly that the Euro is a disastrous failure.

The Euro is a failure and the EU is protectionist. Neither of those is controversial.

It’s probably too early to tell with the Euro.

Not really. It's already shown it's a failure. Greece, Italy, France and probably Germany are not suited to it. Countries with such disparate economic development and social development should not be in a currency zone together, not without being in a fiscal transfer union to give poorer areas the gains made in richer ones as we do within the UK.

From a federalists point of view surely that shortcoming is a feature not a bug, as it will lead to calls for further integration.

Indigo said:

FF43 said:

I'm warming to the Euro, mainly because it has opened up the markets of its members, making them much more export oriented recently, compared with the UK, for example. UK growth in recent years compares with the Eurozone average. There is a wide divergence within the Eurozone. The best performing countries like Germany have grown significantly more than we have.

Hardly a shocker since they are essentially doing it at the expense of the mediterranean countries (notably the Greeks). The Euro is massively undervalued for German, and overvalued for club med.

If DB blows up in an almighty mess it might slightly take the shine off.

viewcode said:

Black_Rook said:

Is there any meaningful constituency - the arch-federalists, residing mainly within the EU institutions, notwithstanding - which views the Euro as a success?

Altough I assume many people don't like it, the fact that no government that uses the Euro has even *tried* to get rid of it (don't forget Tsipras fired Varoufakis immediately when it became public he was trying to establish a shadow currency) makes me think that *they* consider it better than the alternatives.

Unstupid point: a lot of the anglophone discussion about the EU is between people who speak English. It sounds obvious, but we routinely neglect the views of the rest of the planet, who may have a different opinion. It's like the back of your head: a blind spot so big you don't notice it's there.

MaxPB said:

williamglenn said:

MaxPB said:

williamglenn said:

There are two main Leaver shibboleths that will be seen for what they are over time: firstly that the EU is a protectionist block that held back our free trading ways, and secondly that the Euro is a disastrous failure.

The Euro is a failure and the EU is protectionist. Neither of those is controversial.

Ain't groupthink a bitch.

The fact that you believe the Euro is a success shows how very blinkered your view of the EU is. Federalists like you are so very blind.

foxinsoxuk said:

IanB2 said:

prh47bridge said:

Charles said:

CarlottaVance said:

peter_from_putney said:

BTW and totally off topic, can it really be true that Big Fat Stan is set to receive around £1 million compesation from the F.A. after just two months work (if you can call overseeing one England game "work") and having supposedly resigned in disgrace .... words fail me!

I don't know what sort of contracts are drawn up these days, but in my day 'Gross Misconduct' was 'here's a bin-bag for your stuff (carefully checked) and the door is over there'.......

With gross misconduct don't you still get a payment in lieu of notice (but nothing for loss of position)?

No you don't. If you are guilty of gross misconduct you have repudiated the contract so there is no obligation on the employer to pay you. However, rather than risk the employee suing for unfair dismissal many employers will go for a settlement agreement (used to be called compromise agreement) rather than dismissing for gross misconduct. This involves paying the employee a sum of money in return for the employee agreeing to give up their right to sue the employer.

In some professions you can even lose your already earned pension entitlement, which is the severest penalty available for any worker.

I think Big Sam went "by mutual consent" rather than gross misconduct.

No one in their right mind should take the England Manager job. It is a hospital pass.

Gardenwalker said:

williamglenn said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Malmesbury said:

SirBernard said:

Sean_F said:

MikeSmithson said:

Sean_F said:

SeanT said:

MarkSenior said:

Other countries seeking trade deals with the UK post Brexit will not be doing with the best interests of the UK in their minds . They will be seeking to take advantage of a weakened isolated little island nation which has cut itself off from its near neighbours .

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/cd1c369c-84c7-11e6-8897-2359a58ac7a5.html?siteedition=uk#axzz4LpbWf5nr

Risible. They've lost it.

The UK, viewed in the round, is one of the dozen best countries to live in the world, and I see no reason for that to change.

And with BREXIT we'll become poorer so less attractive to migrants.

I'm pretty confident that ten years from now, the UK will have a higher standard of living than it does today (barring a war). The question is how much higher?

If the UK does do economically well post-Brexit, while the EU stagnates further, at what point would those who voted Remain change their minds?

What a silly question - If the UK "appears" to be doing better than the EU after Brexit this is because

1) You are not looking at the right numbers. UK has become a dog-eat-dog super-unequal hellhole.
2) The WWC (Nazi Scum that they are) have savagely destroyed Europe out of their (usual) racist, homophobic, isolationist, little englander, failed state, misogynistic, cannibalistic beliefs and behaviours.
3) UK and EU would have been even richer together.

Didn't you get the memo?

It is also very possible that the EU will do better economically. At what point would the Leavers change their minds?

There are two main Leaver shibboleths that will be seen for what they are over time: firstly that the EU is a protectionist block that held back our free trading ways, and secondly that the Euro is a disastrous failure.

Well, I think you're wrong on the Euro.

But the one you missed was the idea that we are weighed down in EU regulation. I think there's very little evidence of that, especially given our opt-outs.

Sunil_Prasannan said:

viewcode said:

Black_Rook said:

Is there any meaningful constituency - the arch-federalists, residing mainly within the EU institutions, notwithstanding - which views the Euro as a success?

Altough I assume many people don't like it, the fact that no government that uses the Euro has even *tried* to get rid of it (don't forget Tsipras fired Varoufakis immediately when it became public he was trying to establish a shadow currency) makes me think that *they* consider it better than the alternatives.

Unstupid point: a lot of the anglophone discussion about the EU is between people who speak English. It sounds obvious, but we routinely neglect the views of the rest of the planet, who may have a different opinion. It's like the back of your head: a blind spot so big you don't notice it's there.

Why is you so anti-English?

MaxPB said:

OldKingCole said:

MaxPB said:

williamglenn said:

There are two main Leaver shibboleths that will be seen for what they are over time: firstly that the EU is a protectionist block that held back our free trading ways, and secondly that the Euro is a disastrous failure.

The Euro is a failure and the EU is protectionist. Neither of those is controversial.

It’s probably too early to tell with the Euro.

Not really. It's already shown it's a failure. Greece, Italy, France and probably Germany are not suited to it. Countries with such disparate economic development and social development should not be in a currency zone together, not without being in a fiscal transfer union to give poorer areas the gains made in richer ones as we do within the UK.

PlatoSaid said:

Washington Examiner
Murder far worse for blacks under Obama https://t.co/7izDeZCnq8 https://t.co/AEepQXeqyT

RobD said:

malcolmg said:

Gardenwalker said:

williamglenn said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Malmesbury said:

SirBernard said:

Sean_F said:

MikeSmithson said:

Sean_F said:

SeanT said:

MarkSenior said:

Other countries seeking trade deals with the UK post Brexit will not be doing with the best interests of the UK in their minds . They will be seeking to take advantage of a weakened isolated little island nation which has cut itself off from its near neighbours .

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/cd1c369c-84c7-11e6-8897-2359a58ac7a5.html?siteedition=uk#axzz4LpbWf5nr

Risible. They've lost it.

.

And with BREXIT we'll become poorer so less attractive to migrants.

er?

o economically well post-Brexit, while the EU stagnates further, at what point would those who voted Remain change their minds?

What a silly question - If the UK "appears" to be doing better than the EU after Brexit this is because

1) You are not looking at the right numbers. UK has become a dog-eat-dog super-unequal hellhole.
2) The WWC (Nazi Scum that they are) have savagely destroyed Europe out of their (usual) racist, homophobic, isolationist, little englander, failed state, misogynistic, cannibalistic beliefs and behaviours.
3) UK and EU would have been even richer together.

Didn't you get the memo?

It is also very possible that the EU will do better economically. At what point would the Leavers change their minds?

There are two main Leaver shibboleths that will be seen for what they are over time: firstly that the EU is a protectionist block that held back our free trading ways, and secondly that the Euro is a disastrous failure.

Well, I think you're wrong on the Euro.

But the one you missed was the idea that we are weighed down in EU regulation. I think there's very little evidence of that, especially given our opt-outs.

I would wait till we are adfrift on our own, lots of wishful thinking re Empire days etc, UK will be continuing its decline but at a more rapid pace. We have little to sell and once the crooked bankers decamp there will be nothing.

Errr... aren't you forgetting turnips??

PlatoSaid said:

Cable news ratings

http://www.thewrap.com/fox-news-sean-hannity-tops-key-demo-cnn-september-ratings/

With “Hannity” leading the way, Fox News Channel had seven of the Top 10 programs on cable news for the month of September. “The O’Reilly Factor” follows “Hannity” and “The Kelly File,” giving Fox News’ primetime lineup a sweep of the top three.

MSNBC’s “The Rachel Maddow Show” and Fox News’ “Special Report with Bret Baier” round out the top five. CNN’s most-watched show among the key demo was “CNN Tonight with Don Lemon,” which averaged 339,000 demo viewers to finish ninth overall.

malcolmg said:

PlatoSaid said:

Washington Examiner
Murder far worse for blacks under Obama https://t.co/7izDeZCnq8 https://t.co/AEepQXeqyT

How can murder be any worse, they are dead, what variation of death is possible.

viewcode said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

viewcode said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

h ttps://twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/739207060286504960

Sunil. You know you think posting meme graphics is a charming and attractive quality? Well...

"He will make an excellent pro-EU drone" - PFC Data.

[facepalm]

Gardenwalker said:

Well, I think you're wrong on the Euro.

But the one you missed was the idea that we are weighed down in EU regulation. I think there's very little evidence of that, especially given our opt-outs.

RobD said:

PlatoSaid said:

Washington Examiner
Murder far worse for blacks under Obama https://t.co/7izDeZCnq8 https://t.co/AEepQXeqyT

What happened in 2015 to cause that quite significant rise?

foxinsoxuk said:

RobD said:

PlatoSaid said:

Washington Examiner
Murder far worse for blacks under Obama https://t.co/7izDeZCnq8 https://t.co/AEepQXeqyT

What happened in 2015 to cause that quite significant rise?

Police recruitment?

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. D, initially it'll be an e-book only [do plan for a physical copy later] so I'm afraid not.

But you can buy multiple copies to earn the favour of Moses, Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

RobD said:

malcolmg said:

RobD said:

malcolmg said:

Gardenwalker said:

williamglenn said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Malmesbury said:

SirBernard said:

Sean_F said:

MikeSmithson said:

Sean_F said:

SeanT said:

MarkSenior said:

Other countries seeking trade deals with the UK post Brexit will not be doing with the best interests of the UK in their minds . They will be seeking to take advantage of a weakened isolated little island nation which has cut itself off from its near neighbours .

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/cd1c369c-84c7-11e6-8897-2359a58ac7a5.html?siteedition=uk#axzz4LpbWf5nr

Risible. They've lost it.

.

And with BREXIT we'll become poorer so less attractive to migrants.

er?

o economically well post-Brexit, while the EU stagnates further, at what point would those who voted Remain change their minds?

What a silly question - If the UK "appears" to be doing better than the EU after Brexit this is because



Didn't you get the memo?

It is also very possible that the EU will do better economically. At what point would the Leavers change their minds?

Well, I think you're wrong on the Euro.

But the one you missed was the idea that we are weighed down in EU regulation. I think there's very little evidence of that, especially given our opt-outs.

I would wait till we are adfrift on our own, lots of wishful thinking re Empire days etc, UK will be continuing its decline but at a more rapid pace. We have little to sell and once the crooked bankers decamp there will be nothing.

Errr... aren't you forgetting turnips??

Rob,We will be keeping them for ourselves, you have had all our oil , you will not get the turnips so easily.

I swear there was a famous quote on that... "They can take our oil, but they'll never take our turnips!"...... something like that

Sunil_Prasannan said:

foxinsoxuk said:

malcolmg said:

RobD said:

malcolmg said:

Gardenwalker said:

williamglenn said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Malmesbury said:

SirBernard said:

Sean_F said:

MikeSmithson said:

Sean_F said:

SeanT said:

MarkSenior said:

Other countries seeking trade deals with the UK post Brexit will not be doing with the best interests of the UK in their minds . They will be seeking to take advantage of a weakened isolated little island nation which has cut itself off from its near neighbours .

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/cd1c369c-84c7-11e6-8897-2359a58ac7a5.html?siteedition=uk#axzz4LpbWf5nr

Risible. They've lost it.

.

And with BREXIT we'll become poorer so less attractive to migrants.

er?

o economically well post-Brexit, while the EU stagnates further, at what point would those who voted Remain change their minds?

Didn't you get the memo?

It is also very possible that the EU will do better economically. At what point would the Leavers change their minds?

Well, I think you're wrong on the Euro.

But the one you missed was the idea that we are weighed down in EU regulation. I think there's very little evidence of that, especially given our opt-outs.

I would wait till we are adfrift on our own, lots of wishful thinking re Empire days etc, UK will be continuing its decline but at a more rapid pace. We have little to sell and once the crooked bankers decamp there will be nothing.

Errr... aren't you forgetting turnips??

Rob,We will be keeping them for ourselves, you have had all our oil , you will not get the turnips so easily.

Fear not. There are more than enough turnips south of the border.

We can always import Swedes.

malcolmg said:

RobD said:

malcolmg said:

RobD said:

malcolmg said:

Gardenwalker said:

williamglenn said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Malmesbury said:

SirBernard said:

Sean_F said:

MikeSmithson said:

Sean_F said:

SeanT said:

MarkSenior said:

Other countries seeking trade deals with the UK post Brexit will not be doing with the best interests of the UK in their minds . They will be seeking to take advantage of a weakened isolated little island nation which has cut itself off from its near neighbours .

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/cd1c369c-84c7-11e6-8897-2359a58ac7a5.html?siteedition=uk#axzz4LpbWf5nr

Risible. They've lost it.

.

And with BREXIT we'll become poorer so less attractive to migrants.

er?

o economically well post-Brexit, while the EU stagnates further, at what point would those who voted Remain change their minds?

What a silly question - If the UK "appears" to be doing better than the EU after Brexit this is because



Didn't you get the memo?

It is also very possible that the EU will do better economically. At what point would the Leavers change their minds?

Well, I think you're wrong on the Euro.

But the one you missed was the idea that we are weighed down in EU regulation. I think there's very little evidence of that, especially given our opt-outs.

I would wait till we are adfrift on our own, lots of wishful thinking re Empire days etc, UK will be continuing its decline but at a more rapid pace. We have little to sell and once the crooked bankers decamp there will be nothing.

Errr... aren't you forgetting turnips??

Rob,We will be keeping them for ourselves, you have had all our oil , you will not get the turnips so easily.

I swear there was a famous quote on that... "They can take our oil, but they'll never take our turnips!"...... something like that

LOL

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. F, it's gang entry psychology.

Lots of gangs have horrific joining rituals. Leaving aside that now they'd be filmed on phones and potentially used as blackmail threats, the horrendous ordeal was designed to make membership desirable and the prospect of leaving difficult.

After all, if membership requires great pain, it must be worth having, right? And if you've gone through hell, do you want to leave and have that hell all be for nothing?

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Barnesian, having voted to leave, do you think it's legitimate for us to continue to have tariffs and other trade barriers with the rest of the world set by the EU?

Sean_F said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. F, it's gang entry psychology.

Lots of gangs have horrific joining rituals. Leaving aside that now they'd be filmed on phones and potentially used as blackmail threats, the horrendous ordeal was designed to make membership desirable and the prospect of leaving difficult.

After all, if membership requires great pain, it must be worth having, right? And if you've gone through hell, do you want to leave and have that hell all be for nothing?

Our fundamental mistake is to view the Euro in economic terms. If the purpose of economic policy is to promote stability so that living standards may rise, then the Euro must be counted a failure -for 130 m Southern Europeans, at any rate.

But if the purpose is to bind people into irreversible political union, well economic hardship just doesn't matter.

Black_Rook said:

FF43 said:

I'm warming to the Euro, mainly because it has opened up the markets of its members, making them much more export oriented recently, compared with the UK, for example. UK growth in recent years compares with the Eurozone average. There is a wide divergence within the Eurozone. The best performing countries like Germany have grown significantly more than we have.

It's hard to know where to begin when confronted with remarks like this.

Of course Germany has done better than us. Notwithstanding the fact that it was well managed and extremely good at export manufacturing long before the Euro was conceived of, it has also benefitted enormously from what amounts to a huge competitive devaluation *within* the Eurozone itself since it was formed (I've not the space to explain here, but further details are available from http://www.cer.org.uk/insights/eurozones-ruinous-embrace-competitive-devaluation ) This effectively allows Germany to export cheaply to fellow Eurozone members and to hollow out their industrial

Germany is much the largest economy in the Eurozone, and its relatively strong performance therefore makes the overall performance of the whole single currency area appear an awful lot better than it actually is. The further "opening up" of the Eurozone's economies to each other certainly hasn't benefitted all equally. Italy's GDP has barely grown at all, in real terms, since it joined the single currency in 1999, and it now has the third largest sovereign debt market in the world. Unemployment currently runs at 10% in France, 11% in Italy, 12% in Portugal, 20% in Spain and 24% in Greece. In all of these countries, youth unemployment is drastically worse, reaching 39% in Italy, 44% in Spain and 50% in Greece.

Moreover, the Euro doesn't even succeed in the way that you credit it with: data from 2013 (source: https://www.quandl.com/collections/economics/exports-as-share-of-gdp-by-country ) shows that exports as a percentage of GDP had grown by a similar, modest amount in France, Italy and the UK over the preceding decade. In fact, the increase in the UK's value for this metric was actually slightly greater than that for those states in Latin Europe who supposedly have the Euro to thank for a boom in their export trade.

There is a wide divergence in economic performance within the Eurozone primarily because of the existence of the Euro. The fundamental flaws inherent in its design make failure inevitable. Absent the huge steps towards political union and a common treasury needed to correct those flaws, it is not only morally imperative but a matter of common sense that the whole Euro project be put out of its misery.

Black_Rook said:

It's hard to know where to begin when confronted with remarks like this.

Of course Germany has done better than us. Notwithstanding the fact that it was well managed and extremely good at export manufacturing long before the Euro was conceived of, it has also benefitted enormously from what amounts to a huge competitive devaluation *within* the Eurozone itself since it was formed (I've not the space to explain here, but further details are available from http://www.cer.org.uk/insights/eurozones-ruinous-embrace-competitive-devaluation ) This effectively allows Germany to export cheaply to fellow Eurozone members and to hollow out their industrial bases accordingly - even though most of these countries are less well off than Germany is, and would be able under normal circumstances to rely on changes in the relative value of sovereign currencies to correct this problem.

Germany is much the largest economy in the Eurozone, and its relatively strong performance therefore makes the overall performance of the whole single currency area appear an awful lot better than it actually is. The further "opening up" of the Eurozone's economies to each other certainly hasn't benefitted all equally. Italy's GDP has barely grown at all, in real terms, since it joined the single currency in 1999, and it now has the third largest sovereign debt market in the world. Unemployment currently runs at 10% in France, 11% in Italy, 12% in Portugal, 20% in Spain and 24% in Greece. In all of these countries, youth unemployment is drastically worse, reaching 39% in Italy, 44% in Spain and 50% in Greece.

Moreover, the Euro doesn't even succeed in the way that you credit it with: data from 2013 (source: https://www.quandl.com/collections/economics/exports-as-share-of-gdp-by-country ) shows that exports as a percentage of GDP had grown by a similar, modest amount in France, Italy and the UK over the preceding decade. In fact, the increase in the UK's value for this metric was actually slightly greater than that for those states in Latin Europe who supposedly have the Euro to thank for a boom in their export trade.

There is a wide divergence in economic performance within the Eurozone primarily because of the existence of the Euro. The fundamental flaws inherent in its design make failure inevitable. Absent the huge steps towards political union and a common treasury needed to correct those flaws, it is not only morally imperative but a matter of common sense that the whole Euro project be put out of its misery.

Paul_Bedfordshire said:

MTimT said:

Another EU directive coming into force this year essentially bans the production of the chemical that is the basis of disinfection in hospitals and laboratories. Expect hospital-acquired (nosocomial) and laboratory-acquired infections to increase once this directive enters into force. The sad thing is that the hospital and laboratory community was not even aware, let alone involved, in the development of the regulation until it was too late to stop, as it was seen as an environmental issue. And good luck with rolling back such EU regulation once the negative impacts are felt.

These are just two I know about in my specific area of expertise

This is typical of the sort of thing that if it had to be proposed as a measure by the British Government and put through parliament wouldnt stand a chance.

However as a directive proposed by the undemocratic commission it is nodded through as secondary legislation under the EEC Act 1972 with MPs told that it would be 'an abuse of process' to oppose it.

It makes my blood boil - or at least it would have done until June 24th when I discovered a majority of my fellow British citizens felt the same way and were not prepared to put up with this state of affairs any longer. Now I juat grimace then sigh "Thank Goodness" when I read things like that.

malcolmg said:

Paul_Bedfordshire said:

MTimT said:

Another EU directive coming into force this year essentially bans the production of the chemical that is the basis of disinfection in hospitals and laboratories. Expect hospital-acquired (nosocomial) and laboratory-acquired infections to increase once this directive enters into force. The sad thing is that the hospital and laboratory community was not even aware, let alone involved, in the development of the regulation until it was too late to stop, as it was seen as an environmental issue. And good luck with rolling back such EU regulation once the negative impacts are felt.

These are just two I know about in my specific area of expertise

This is typical of the sort of thing that if it had to be proposed as a measure by the British Government and put through parliament wouldnt stand a chance.

However as a directive proposed by the undemocratic commission it is nodded through as secondary legislation under the EEC Act 1972 with MPs told that it would be 'an abuse of process' to oppose it.

It makes my blood boil - or at least it would have done until June 24th when I discovered a majority of my fellow British citizens felt the same way and were not prepared to put up with this state of affairs any longer. Now I juat grimace then sigh "Thank Goodness" when I read things like that.

How is the clock doing, still clucking

MaxPB said:

Sean_F said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. F, it's gang entry psychology.

Lots of gangs have horrific joining rituals. Leaving aside that now they'd be filmed on phones and potentially used as blackmail threats, the horrendous ordeal was designed to make membership desirable and the prospect of leaving difficult.

After all, if membership requires great pain, it must be worth having, right? And if you've gone through hell, do you want to leave and have that hell all be for nothing?

Our fundamental mistake is to view the Euro in economic terms. If the purpose of economic policy is to promote stability so that living standards may rise, then the Euro must be counted a failure -for 130 m Southern Europeans, at any rate.

But if the purpose is to bind people into irreversible political union, well economic hardship just doesn't matter.

Of course, that's why the deranged federalists view it as a success. Any suffering it causes is incidental and worth the end goal. They are despicable.

foxinsoxuk said:

Paul_Bedfordshire said:

malcolmg said:

Paul_Bedfordshire said:

MTimT said:

Another EU directive coming into force this year essentially bans the production of the chemical that is the basis of disinfection in hospitals and laboratories. Expect hospital-acquired (nosocomial) and laboratory-acquired infections to increase once this directive enters into force. The sad thing is that the hospital and laboratory community was not even aware, let alone involved, in the development of the regulation until it was too late to stop, as it was seen as an environmental issue. And good luck with rolling back such EU regulation once the negative impacts are felt.

These are just two I know about in my specific area of expertise

This is typical of the sort of thing that if it had to be proposed as a measure by the British Government and put through parliament wouldnt stand a chance.

However as a directive proposed by the undemocratic commission it is nodded through as secondary legislation under the EEC Act 1972 with MPs told that it would be 'an abuse of process' to oppose it.

It makes my blood boil - or at least it would have done until June 24th when I discovered a majority of my fellow British citizens felt the same way and were not prepared to put up with this state of affairs any longer. Now I juat grimace then sigh "Thank Goodness" when I read things like that.

How is the clock doing, still clucking

Also its wings are a bit odd, they are more like my spaniels ears than wings.

Plenty left over at the shop last night. They are not selling all that fast.

Hard to think why....

viewcode said:

Black_Rook said:

Is there any meaningful constituency - the arch-federalists, residing mainly within the EU institutions, notwithstanding - which views the Euro as a success?

Altough I assume many people don't like it, the fact that no government that uses the Euro has even *tried* to get rid of it (don't forget Tsipras fired Varoufakis immediately when it became public he was trying to establish a shadow currency) makes me think that *they* consider it better than the alternatives.

Unstupid point: a lot of the anglophone discussion about the EU is between people who speak English. It sounds obvious, but we routinely neglect the views of the rest of the planet, who may have a different opinion. It's like the back of your head: a blind spot so big you don't notice it's there.

MaxPB said:

Sean_F said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. F, it's gang entry psychology.

Lots of gangs have horrific joining rituals. Leaving aside that now they'd be filmed on phones and potentially used as blackmail threats, the horrendous ordeal was designed to make membership desirable and the prospect of leaving difficult.

After all, if membership requires great pain, it must be worth having, right? And if you've gone through hell, do you want to leave and have that hell all be for nothing?

Our fundamental mistake is to view the Euro in economic terms. If the purpose of economic policy is to promote stability so that living standards may rise, then the Euro must be counted a failure -for 130 m Southern Europeans, at any rate.

But if the purpose is to bind people into irreversible political union, well economic hardship just doesn't matter.

Of course, that's why the deranged federalists view it as a success. Any suffering it causes is incidental and worth the end goal. They are despicable.

Sean_F said:

Black_Rook said:

FF43 said:

I'm warming to the Euro, mainly because it has opened up the markets of its members, making them much more export oriented recently, compared with the UK, for example. UK growth in recent years compares with the Eurozone average. There is a wide divergence within the Eurozone. The best performing countries like Germany have grown significantly more than we have.

Moreover, the Euro doesn't even succeed in the way that you credit it with: data from 2013 (source: https://www.quandl.com/collections/economics/exports-as-share-of-gdp-by-country ) shows that exports as a percentage of GDP had grown by a similar, modest amount in France, Italy and the UK over the preceding decade. In fact, the increase in the UK's value for this metric was actually slightly greater than that for those states in Latin Europe who supposedly have the Euro to thank for a boom in their export trade.

There is a wide divergence in economic performance within the Eurozone primarily because of the existence of the Euro. The fundamental flaws inherent in its design make failure inevitable. Absent the huge steps towards political union and a common treasury needed to correct those flaws, it is not only morally imperative but a matter of common sense that the whole Euro project be put out of its misery.

For Euro apologists, high unemployment is a feature, not a bug. The unemployed should simply emigrate to other EU States.

Black_Rook said:

MaxPB said:

Sean_F said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. F, it's gang entry psychology.

snipped

snipped.

Of course, that's why the deranged federalists view it as a success. Any suffering it causes is incidental and worth the end goal. They are despicable.

Except that the federalists are wrong to view it as a success. They wanted to force political union through the doctrine of beneficial crisis. It hasn't worked. Political union has not been forthcoming, the various power blocs within the EU have fallen to bickering amongst themselves over debt pooling and bailouts, the migrant crisis and open borders, and policy towards Russia, and now the second largest member state has voted to abandon the project altogether.

I agree that the aim of driving the peoples of Europe towards a federation that few of them wanted - over the prone corpses of their nation states and their democratic will - is abhorrent. But if those doing the driving think that the plan is coming together then they're liable to be disabused of the notion. The Euro cannot be made to work without political union, but the member state governments - even those still consisting of politicians who persist in thinking that this is a desirable objective - seem to lack the ability to get there. Absent political union, surely all they can do is keep on managing the crisis until the Euro eventually collapses?

FrancisUrquhart said:

Remember when the Times used to be the newspaper of record....

Fantastic anecdote in Rachel Sylvester and Alice Thomson’s The Times puff piece for Theresa May this morning. Only snag, it didn’t happen, the PM has not been to the White House yet…

http://order-order.com/2016/10/01/may-not-true/

Sandpit said:

Sean_F said:

Black_Rook said:

FF43 said:

I'm warming to the Euro, mainly because it has opened up the markets of its members, making them much more export oriented recently, compared with the UK, for example. UK growth in recent years compares with the Eurozone average. There is a wide divergence within the Eurozone. The best performing countries like Germany have grown significantly more than we have.

Moreover, the Euro doesn't even succeed in the way that you credit it with: data from 2013 (source: https://www.quandl.com/collections/economics/exports-as-share-of-gdp-by-country ) shows that exports as a percentage of GDP had grown by a similar, modest amount in France, Italy and the UK over the preceding decade. In fact, the increase in the UK's value for this metric was actually slightly greater than that for those states in Latin Europe who supposedly have the Euro to thank for a boom in their export trade.

There is a wide divergence in economic performance within the Eurozone primarily because of the existence of the Euro. The fundamental flaws inherent in its design make failure inevitable. Absent the huge steps towards political union and a common treasury needed to correct those flaws, it is not only morally imperative but a matter of common sense that the whole Euro project be put out of its misery.

For Euro apologists, high unemployment is a feature, not a bug. The unemployed should simply emigrate to other EU States.

Except that a number of unemployed have others to support, and don't have the language skills to move to another State as they could in the US.

Tens of millions of Spanish, Italian, Greek and Portuguese young unemployed don't think the Euro is working well for them, nor a 'Price Worth Paying' for some vague half-finished idea of a European superstate.

FF43 said:

MaxPB said:

Don't bother, there's no convincing these deranged EUphiles. The EU is good and everyone who opposes it is wrong, regardless of the evidence.

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NE.EXP.GNFS.ZS?locations=XC-GB

We see a big boost in our exports from when we joined the EU, plateauing afterwards. The Eurozone saw a bigger boost in their exports from the start of the EMU in 1990.

IanB2 said:

The issue is that a common currency needs common banking and fiscal arrangements to go with it, so that money can be redistributed towards less wealthy areas to offset the tendency for economic activity to centralise. This is what happens within every country, including the UK, and externally directed financial support has been tremendously successful in Europe twice before - the Marshall Plan after the Second World War, and the support directed to former communist Eastern Europe after the wall fell in 1989. And of course the integration of former East Germany into the FDR. The mistake with the Euro was to do the currency bit first, hoping that the rest would follow. If it had all come together, history may well have judged it as a third success in levelling up prosperity across the continent. Doing half the job and hoping the rest will happen later has, so far, turned out to be a serious mistake.

Sandpit said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Remember when the Times used to be the newspaper of record....

Fantastic anecdote in Rachel Sylvester and Alice Thomson’s The Times puff piece for Theresa May this morning. Only snag, it didn’t happen, the PM has not been to the White House yet…

http://order-order.com/2016/10/01/may-not-true/

Oh dear oh dear. Did they not think someone might check such minor details such as the PM visiting the White House? The decline of quality journalism continues unabated.

FF43 said:

FF43 said:

MaxPB said:

Don't bother, there's no convincing these deranged EUphiles. The EU is good and everyone who opposes it is wrong, regardless of the evidence.

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NE.EXP.GNFS.ZS?locations=XC-GB

We see a big boost in our exports from when we joined the EU, plateauing afterwards. The Eurozone saw a bigger boost in their exports from the start of the EMU in 1990.

As I seemed to have been marked down as a deranged Euro Federalist, I should note I have somewhat changed my mind about the Euro,from the facts. The chart I referenced above was interesting and unexpected to me. If you are not open to facts and debate, what's the point? It doesn't mean the Euro doesn't have downsides.

FrancisUrquhart said:

Sandpit said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Remember when the Times used to be the newspaper of record....

Fantastic anecdote in Rachel Sylvester and Alice Thomson’s The Times puff piece for Theresa May this morning. Only snag, it didn’t happen, the PM has not been to the White House yet…

http://order-order.com/2016/10/01/may-not-true/

Oh dear oh dear. Did they not think someone might check such minor details such as the PM visiting the White House? The decline of quality journalism continues unabated.

The thing is it isn't even something that is debatable. When we get tales of what was said at a private meeting or dinner its he said she said, but giving a story of a meeting that is easy to check if it took place...Its Johann Hari stuff....

MaxPB said:

FF43 said:

FF43 said:

MaxPB said:

Don't bother, there's no convincing these deranged EUphiles. The EU is good and everyone who opposes it is wrong, regardless of the evidence.

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?end=2015&locations=XC-GB&start=1990

We see a big boost in our exports from when we joined the EU, plateauing afterwards. The Eurozone saw a bigger boost in their exports from the start of the EMU in 1990.

As I seemed to have been marked down as a deranged Euro Federalist, I should note I have somewhat changed my mind about the Euro,from the facts. The chart I referenced above was interesting and unexpected to me. If you are not open to facts and debate, what's the point? It doesn't mean the Euro doesn't have downsides.

And all of that additional export capacity has resulted in precisely zero additional growth, in fact it has dragged on their economies and made them more susceptible to strengthening of the currency, locking the whole bloc into a cycle of low interest rates and low yield growth. Something they have had since 2010 and will not break out of.

MTimT said:

Gardenwalker said:

Well, I think you're wrong on the Euro.

But the one you missed was the idea that we are weighed down in EU regulation. I think there's very little evidence of that, especially given our opt-outs.

The EU directive on GMOs is essentially preventing any commercialization of synthetic biology. Synthetic biology - the biological revolution - is supposed to be the next great economic revolution, akin to the electronic and then IT revolutions. The EU, despite a very strong research position, is simply not placed to exploit its technology.

Another EU directive coming into force this year essentially bans the production of the chemical that is the basis of disinfection in hospitals and laboratories. Expect hospital-acquired (nosocomial) and laboratory-acquired infections to increase once this directive enters into force. The sad thing is that the hospital and laboratory community was not even aware, let alone involved, in the development of the regulation until it was too late to stop, as it was seen as an environmental issue. And good luck with rolling back such EU regulation once the negative impacts are felt.

These are just two I know about in my specific area of expertise