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But the reason for that is because national governments wanted to retain a role, rather than allowing the EU parliament to have additional powers. It is the ugliness of the compromise between a commission appointed by elected national governments and the European parliament that leads to the democratic deficit. You could get rid of the deficit by allowing the EU parliament more powers, but once you do that, you inevitably set the EU on a near irreversible path towards statehood. Let us not forget that the US Congress original power, set up in the constitution, was simply to regulate interstate commerce.Cyclefree said:
If only European states were trying to create a Europe which really learnt and understood the lessons of the Founding Fathers of the USA.
Alas, instead of getting a government by "We the people", we have been getting one by unelected top down bureaucrats with little time for the people or, frankly, democracy.0 -
It's also not quite true regarding how the rest of the world sees the EU. It's generally understood that there is a process of European integration in a way that is quite different from a regional trade agreement. If nothing else, having a single currency gives the game away.rcs1000 said:
That's not quite true regarding NAFTA. An ISDS tribunal struck down the Quebec provincial ban on GM seeds, for example.MaxPB said:
But that's how the rest of the world sees the EU, as a trading bloc like NAFTA or alliance like ASEAN. They look from the outside in and wonder why we left, the US would never sign up to a political union where the SCOTUS was no longer the ultimate judicial arbiter, and yet they expect it of us. As for Germany or Italy, I'm not asking for them to want anything different, just that we want no part of it. Thankfully, I'm in the majority.williamglenn said:
Ask Californians if they would join the United States of Trump come December and the answer may well be no...MaxPB said:
To countries outside of the EU I would ask them whether they would join a political union whereby a foreign court and an unelected executive holds ultimate control, above national institutions. NAFTA, Mercosur and ASEAN are nothing like the EU. Even the TPP is just trade alignment which the EU goes well beyond. I think you'll find there won't be many takers.Richard_Nabavi said:
Funnily enough, throwing away economic advantage for political reasons is exactly what the EU27 countries think the UK is doing. For that matter, that's also what much of the rest of the world thinks. Who knows which side is daft?TCPoliticalBetting said:Very true. They are daft enough to create a major problem for their exporters to the UK.
It's all well and good for them to judge, but until they are familiar with the ill and frankly corrosive effect the EU has on our national outlook and politics, they should keep their own council.
It's a category error to compare the EU with things like NAFTA, Mercosur and ASEAN. You can't understand the EU without interpreting it as analogous to the nationalist movements that united Germany and Italy in centuries past, except on a continental scale (like China for that matter).0 -
Quite the opposite - almost every office is appointed by the Mayor.MaxPB said:
Don't they have elected commissioners in NYC for basically everything? Your friend was probably in housing.NickPalmer said:
I used to know a fairly senior architect in New York, who refused promition above a certain level because it would make his position vulnerable if the regime changed. That can't make sense - who needs politicsed architects?MTimT said:
When political appointees filter down so far in the system, and sheriffs, judges and prosecutors are elected, it makes little sense to require your civil servants to be apolitical.0 -
Yet they voted no ..... so obviously didn't want to when it came down to reality.foxinsoxuk said:
Thats right. Like the Scots....Cyclefree said:Richard_Nabavi said:
Funnily enough, throwing away economic advantage for political reasons is exactly what the EU27 countries think the UK is doing. For that matter, that's also what much of the rest of the world thinks. Who knows which side is daft?TCPoliticalBetting said:Very true. They are daft enough to create a major problem for their exporters to the UK.
You mean political reasons such as wanting to govern yourself? That daft democracy idea?
I blame Braveheart.0 -
Which is of course why the UK voted to get out. We may eventually rejoin EFTA which is more akin to NAFTA and ASEAN and Mercosur than the EU is. Juncker and the EU elites certainly do believe they are creating a new superpower, however the EU population are not as enthusiastic especially in regards to the migration and austerity it brings. The biggest test for the EU may not actually be Brexit or the French or German or Dutch elections next year but the Italian elections in 2018 where the anti Euro 5* presently lead in the second round. If they try to take Italy out of the Eurozone that is when the whole thing could come crashing down!williamglenn said:
It's also not quite true regarding how the rest of the world sees the EU. It's generally understood that there is a process of European integration in a way that is quite different from a regional trade agreement. If nothing else, having a single currency gives the game away.rcs1000 said:
That's not quite true regarding NAFTA. An ISDS tribunal struck down the Quebec provincial ban on GM seeds, for example.MaxPB said:
But that's how the rest of the world sees the EU, a.williamglenn said:
Ask Californians if they would join the United States of Trump come December and the answer may well be no...MaxPB said:
To countries outside of the EU I would ask them whether they would join a political union whereby a foreign court and an unelected executive holds ultimate control, above national institutions. NAFTA, Mercosur and ASEAN are nothing like the EU. Even the TPP is just trade alignment which the EU goes well beyond. I think you'll find there won't be many takers.Richard_Nabavi said:
Funnily enough, throwing away economic advantage for political reasons is exactly what the EU27 countries think the UK is doing. For that matter, that's also what much of the rest of the world thinks. Who knows which side is daft?TCPoliticalBetting said:Very true. They are daft enough to create a major problem for their exporters to the UK.
It's all well and good for them to judge, but until they are familiar with the ill and frankly corrosive effect the EU has on our national outlook and politics, they should keep their own council.
It's a category error to compare the EU with things like NAFTA, Mercosur and ASEAN. You can't understand the EU without interpreting it as analogous to the nationalist movements that united Germany and Italy in centuries past, except on a continental scale (like China for that matter).0 -
Ireland of course now has a higher gdp per capita than the UKCyclefree said:
And as I'm sure you recall I was in favour of Scots independence, if that's what they wanted, for precisely those reasons. Sometimes people value independence and self-government more than being richer but with less or no control. The view that Ireland took in the early part of the last century.foxinsoxuk said:
Thats right. Like the Scots....Cyclefree said:Richard_Nabavi said:
Funnily enough, throwing away economic advantage for political reasons is exactly what the EU27 countries think the UK is doing. For that matter, that's also what much of the rest of the world thinks. Who knows which side is daft?TCPoliticalBetting said:Very true. They are daft enough to create a major problem for their exporters to the UK.
You mean political reasons such as wanting to govern yourself? That daft democracy idea?0 -
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It's one of the free ones - if you spend over £5.logical_song said:
Nah, it's a myth. In truth, you'll be more likely to find PB Tories in Waitrose than in any other food store. They appear to sell around five times as many copies of the Daily Mail there than of any other newspaper.
Yes, I get the Guardian that way - have wondered how much the paper gets from it. Roughly equal stacks with the Mail in my Islington branch. Some Times as well, not much else.
In Sainsbury in Beeston (the Guardianista part of my old patch, soon to migrate to Nottingham South), I'm told that the Morning Star outsells the Daily Express! Two worlds, eh?0 -
Is your Islington branch the Angel or the Holloway one?NickPalmer said:
Yes, I get the Guardian that way - have wondered how much the paper gets from it. Roughly equal stacks with the Mail in my Islington branch. Some Times as well, not much else.
In Sainsbury in Beeston (the Guardianista part of my old patch, soon to migrate to Nottingham South), I'm told that the Morning Star outsells the Daily Express! Two worlds, eh?
I was in the former at lunch, picking up a few odds and ends.0 -
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Anyone want a good laugh ? Have a look at the Google polling on 538.0
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Indeed - but even if Trump takes both, North Carolina, Nevada and Arizona he still comes up short.HYUFD said:
RCP now has Trump leading on average in both Florida and Ohio, no Republican since Nixon in 1960 has won those two states and lost the presidency
Virginia makes things awfully difficult for him.
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https://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/apr/19/game-of-thrones-jonathan-pryce-jeremy-corbyn-high-sparrow-season-six
I've just coming to the end of the 6th series but the comparison is really quite frightening. Sorry to fellow peers if I'm late on this one........0 -
One of Michigan, Pennsylvania or Wisconsin would also do it as would Colorado even if he lost Virginia. Whatever happens we are now heading for the second closest presidential election since World War 2 as of today's RCP state polling averageAndrew said:
Indeed - but even if Trump takes both, North Carolina, Nevada and Arizona he still comes up short.HYUFD said:
RCP now has Trump leading on average in both Florida and Ohio, no Republican since Nixon in 1960 has won those two states and lost the presidency
Virginia makes things awfully difficult for him.0 -
538 has Trump winning Ohio and Florida - and losing.HYUFD said:
RCP now has Trump leading on average in both Florida and Ohio, no Republican since Nixon in 1960 has won those two states and lost the presidencyAndrew said:
There was a Florida Clinton+5 on Tuesday, but these have pretty tiny sample sizes, margins of error well over 4%.HYUFD said:
Florida will now edge to Trump in the RCP average giving Clinton a 275 to 263 lead overall0 -
538 is currently predicting Trump to win 28 states, with gains in Florida, Ohio, Iowa and Nevada:
http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/?ex_cid=rrpromo0 -
Yes but he only needs 1 more state beyond those he presently has to win. If higher than expected white working class turnout in any of Michigan, Pennsylvania or Wisconsin allows him to win one of those states then he becomes the 45th President of the USA, even if he loses Virginia and Colorado to Hillarylogical_song said:
538 has Trump winning Ohio and Florida - and losing.HYUFD said:
RCP now has Trump leading on average in both Florida and Ohio, no Republican since Nixon in 1960 has won those two states and lost the presidencyAndrew said:
There was a Florida Clinton+5 on Tuesday, but these have pretty tiny sample sizes, margins of error well over 4%.HYUFD said:
Florida will now edge to Trump in the RCP average giving Clinton a 275 to 263 lead overall0 -
I don't think Trump expects to win Virginia, Colorado or New Hampshire. If he does, he'll already have won the election elsewhere.HYUFD said:
Yes but he only needs 1 more state beyond those he presently has to win. If higher than expected white working class turnout in any of Michigan, Pennsylvania or Wisconsin allows him to win one of those states then he becomes the 45th President of the USA, even if he loses Virginia and Colorado to Hillarylogical_song said:
538 has Trump winning Ohio and Florida - and losing.HYUFD said:
RCP now has Trump leading on average in both Florida and Ohio, no Republican since Nixon in 1960 has won those two states and lost the presidencyAndrew said:
There was a Florida Clinton+5 on Tuesday, but these have pretty tiny sample sizes, margins of error well over 4%.HYUFD said:
Florida will now edge to Trump in the RCP average giving Clinton a 275 to 263 lead overall0 -
Although both the common European institutions and the US federal government began life with comparatively limited objectives, I'm not sure that making the direct comparison between their subsequent accrual of power in the way that you appear to do is justified.rcs1000 said:But the reason for that is because national governments wanted to retain a role, rather than allowing the EU parliament to have additional powers. It is the ugliness of the compromise between a commission appointed by elected national governments and the European parliament that leads to the democratic deficit. You could get rid of the deficit by allowing the EU parliament more powers, but once you do that, you inevitably set the EU on a near irreversible path towards statehood. Let us not forget that the US Congress original power, set up in the constitution, was simply to regulate interstate commerce.
The US was established and explicitly recognised as a federation from its inception, and the rights and limitations of both the federal and state governments codified at the outset. The fact that the federal government was initially minimal and only grew later is not, primarily, the product of centralizing mission creep, but of the changing nature of government itself. The US was founded in the late eighteenth century, when it made perfect sense for the central government to concern itself with defence, diplomacy, the currency, the postal service and very little else (and in comparison to today the states didn't have that much to do, either.)
The common European institutions, on the other hand, were set up explicitly as a means for sovereign and separate national governments, which were understood to be such, to achieve closer co-operation in areas of common interest, and not as an act of nation-building. Some may argue (and I would concur with them) that the underlying aim of the founders of the European Communities was to drain the life out of elected nation state governments and transfer them upwards to a technocratic, rather than democratic, policy elite. Whatever, the salient point is that the EU has attempted progressively to convert itself into a federal union, despite the fact that its nations are still nominally sovereign, and most of its people do not desire a United States of Europe (even if many of their politicians believe it to be a splendid notion.)
The US worked because the states agreed at the outset to pool sovereignty as a single federation. The EU isn't working because it tried to force a federalism that was against the popular will upon national electorates by mission creep. The ugly compromise structures of the governance of the EU, and especially of the Eurozone, are the product of this fundamental difference: of consent versus coercion, and of a uniting national spirit versus a mere community of neighbours which, by trying to agree too much amongst itself, merely creates more and more disputes.0 -
Holloway. I live above the little Sainsbury on Holloway Road, though I'm moving back to Nottingham next month.Gardenwalker said:
Is your Islington branch the Angel or the Holloway one?NickPalmer said:
Yes, I get the Guardian that way - have wondered how much the paper gets from it. Roughly equal stacks with the Mail in my Islington branch. Some Times as well, not much else.
In Sainsbury in Beeston (the Guardianista part of my old patch, soon to migrate to Nottingham South), I'm told that the Morning Star outsells the Daily Express! Two worlds, eh?
I was in the former at lunch, picking up a few odds and ends.0 -
Having another go at Broxtowe?NickPalmer said:
Holloway. I live above the little Sainsbury on Holloway Road, though I'm moving back to Nottingham next month.Gardenwalker said:
Is your Islington branch the Angel or the Holloway one?NickPalmer said:
Yes, I get the Guardian that way - have wondered how much the paper gets from it. Roughly equal stacks with the Mail in my Islington branch. Some Times as well, not much else.
In Sainsbury in Beeston (the Guardianista part of my old patch, soon to migrate to Nottingham South), I'm told that the Morning Star outsells the Daily Express! Two worlds, eh?
I was in the former at lunch, picking up a few odds and ends.0 -
I see May has slapped down Johnson's latest Brexit musings.
So Fox, Davis and Johnson all "corrected" by Downing Street.
Is this at all normal? Or are May and the Brexiteers playing a kind of good cop / bad cop routine?0 -
Except May herself has said Article 50 would be declared early 2017, which then means a 2019 exit.Gardenwalker said:I see May has slapped down Johnson's latest Brexit musings.
So Fox, Davis and Johnson all "corrected" by Downing Street.
Is this at all normal? Or are May and the Brexiteers playing a kind of good cop / bad cop routine?0 -
Yes, I get the Guardian that way - have wondered how much the paper gets from it. Roughly equal stacks with the Mail in my Islington branch. Some Times as well, not much else.NickPalmer said:
It's one of the free ones - if you spend over £5.logical_song said:
Nah, it's a myth. In truth, you'll be more likely to find PB Tories in Waitrose than in any other food store. They appear to sell around five times as many copies of the Daily Mail there than of any other newspaper.
In Sainsbury in Beeston (the Guardianista part of my old patch, soon to migrate to Nottingham South), I'm told that the Morning Star outsells the Daily Express! Two worlds, eh?
REPLY
That's true. This Conservative minded voter takes the only paper worth reading.. The Times... when I bother to buy one(or get one free
..) There are loads of Daily Rants being read in the café at my local Waitrose and you can see and pick out the types..
Daily Mail, best used recycled as bog paper.0 -
Indeed, Virginia has the DC suburbs, Colorado lots of graduates and Hispanics and New Hampshire is in New England which make them more favourable to Hillary and the Democrats. Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin all comprise part of the Rustbelt and like Ohio and Indiana, where Trump now leads, are full of white working class voters angry at globalisation, automation, the outsourcing of their jobs and free trade agreements like NAFTA as well as rising immigration. It is one of those states he is looking at to take him over the topAndyJS said:
I don't think Trump expects to win Virginia, Colorado or New Hampshire. If he does, he'll already have won the election elsewhere.HYUFD said:
Yes but he only needs 1 more state beyond those he presently has to win. If higher than expected white working class turnout in any of Michigan, Pennsylvania or Wisconsin allows him to win one of those states then he becomes the 45th President of the USA, even if he loses Virginia and Colorado to Hillarylogical_song said:
538 has Trump winning Ohio and Florida - and losing.HYUFD said:
RCP now has Trump leading on average in both Florida and Ohio, no Republican since Nixon in 1960 has won those two states and lost the presidencyAndrew said:
There was a Florida Clinton+5 on Tuesday, but these have pretty tiny sample sizes, margins of error well over 4%.HYUFD said:
Florida will now edge to Trump in the RCP average giving Clinton a 275 to 263 lead overall0 -
Italexit possible sooner if Renzi loses his constitutional ballot. Regardless, there is a school of thought that it is inevitable at some point. Italy's debt to GDP ratio is out of control, and in the long run the country is both too big to bully and too big to bail. But we shall see. The political willpower behind the EU project is enormous, and is still (just about) keeping it on the road, despite the UK leaving - bearing in mind that we haven't really been a part of core Europe since John Major's time.HYUFD said:Which is of course why the UK voted to get out. We may eventually rejoin EFTA which is more akin to NAFTA and ASEAN and Mercosur than the EU is. Juncker and the EU elites certainly do believe they are creating a new superpower, however the EU population are not as enthusiastic especially in regards to the migration and austerity it brings. The biggest test for the EU may not actually be Brexit or the French or German or Dutch elections next year but the Italian elections in 2018 where the anti Euro 5* presently lead in the second round. If they try to take Italy out of the Eurozone that is when the whole thing could come crashing down!
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Far from the full English Brexit promised by La Leadsom, we're getting a dog's Brexit.Gardenwalker said:I see May has slapped down Johnson's latest Brexit musings.
So Fox, Davis and Johnson all "corrected" by Downing Street.
Is this at all normal? Or are May and the Brexiteers playing a kind of good cop / bad cop routine?0 -
Very good.williamglenn said:
Far from the full English Brexit promised by La Leadsom, we're getting a dog's Brexit.Gardenwalker said:I see May has slapped down Johnson's latest Brexit musings.
So Fox, Davis and Johnson all "corrected" by Downing Street.
Is this at all normal? Or are May and the Brexiteers playing a kind of good cop / bad cop routine?0 -
"Chuka Umunna: We Should Be Prepared To Sacrifice Single Market Membership To Axe Freedom Of Movement"
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/chuka-umunna-single-market-free-movement-brexit_uk_57e3e201e4b0db20a6e8b0570 -
REPLYSquareRoot said:
Yes, I get the Guardian that way - have wondered how much the paper gets from it. Roughly equal stacks with the Mail in my Islington branch. Some Times as well, not much else.NickPalmer said:
It's one of the free ones - if you spend over £5.logical_song said:
Nah, it's a myth. In truth, you'll be more likely to find PB Tories in Waitrose than in any other food store. They appear to sell around five times as many copies of the Daily Mail there than of any other newspaper.
In Sainsbury in Beeston (the Guardianista part of my old patch, soon to migrate to Nottingham South), I'm told that the Morning Star outsells the Daily Express! Two worlds, eh?
That's true. This Conservative minded voter takes the only paper worth reading.. The Times... when I bother to buy one(or get one free ..) There are loads of Daily Rants being read in the café at my local Waitrose and you can see and pick out the types..
Daily Mail, best used recycled as bog paper.
Have been thinking for a while now about getting a Times subscription, especially as the Telegraph has gone down the crapper.0 -
Eminently sensible I would have thought if Labour wants to keep its white working class Leave voters who have not already defected to UKIP. In any case he clearly wants the UK to stay in the single market, just not if it means no control over free movement at all “If continuation of the free movement we have is the price of Single Market membership then clearly we couldn’t remain in the Single Market, but we are not at that point yet.”AndyJS said:"Chuka Umunna: We Should Be Prepared To Sacrifice Single Market Membership To Axe Freedom Of Movement"
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/chuka-umunna-single-market-free-movement-brexit_uk_57e3e201e4b0db20a6e8b057
This just confirms even more in my mind he is the best bet for Labour to return to power in 2025 after a heavy Corbyn/McDonnell defeat, if the Labour membership is willing to return to sanity!0 -
FPT - Mike Smithson suggests Lib Dems are under most pressure to perform in Witney, but I'm not so sure. They have been polling 8% nationally for years, so if they do badly again it will be no worse than expected. Labour, on the other hand, bagged nearly 20% of the vote last year. It will be interesting to see if they shed votes, and if they do where these votes end up.
Labour hasn't very much further to fall in the South outside of London, but a significant drop in support - particularly given that they are the main opposition fighting a government mid-term, and ought therefore to be gaining votes - might help to indicate how vulnerable the remaining Lab-Con marginals already are...0 -
I think HMG is hoping this sacred cow is slaughtered similarly quickly in continental Europe through the 2017 elections; hopefully, prior to invoking Article 50.AndyJS said:"Chuka Umunna: We Should Be Prepared To Sacrifice Single Market Membership To Axe Freedom Of Movement"
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/chuka-umunna-single-market-free-movement-brexit_uk_57e3e201e4b0db20a6e8b0570 -
I think Labour will do relatively badly at the Witney by-election, because I think Witney is the sort of constituency where Ed Miliband will have gone down quite well with centre-left voters, whereas Jeremy Corbyn probably won't. I'd be surprised if they don't slip to at least third place.Black_Rook said:FPT - Mike Smithson suggests Lib Dems are under most pressure to perform in Witney, but I'm not so sure. They have been polling 8% nationally for years, so if they do badly again it will be no worse than expected. Labour, on the other hand, bagged nearly 20% of the vote last year. It will be interesting to see if they shed votes, and if they do where these votes end up.
Labour hasn't very much further to fall in the South outside of London, but a significant drop in support - particularly given that they are the main opposition fighting a government mid-term, and ought therefore to be gaining votes - might help to indicate how vulnerable the remaining Lab-Con marginals already are...0 -
I shouldn't ask, but I can't help myself: did you vote Leave in the end?Cyclefree said:
And as I'm sure you recall I was in favour of Scots independence, if that's what they wanted, for precisely those reasons. Sometimes people value independence and self-government more than being richer but with less or no control. The view that Ireland took in the early part of the last century.foxinsoxuk said:
Thats right. Like the Scots....Cyclefree said:Richard_Nabavi said:
Funnily enough, throwing away economic advantage for political reasons is exactly what the EU27 countries think the UK is doing. For that matter, that's also what much of the rest of the world thinks. Who knows which side is daft?TCPoliticalBetting said:Very true. They are daft enough to create a major problem for their exporters to the UK.
You mean political reasons such as wanting to govern yourself? That daft democracy idea?
You strike me as someone who really wanted to vote Leave, but actually very reluctantly voted Remain on the day, but are quite glad the nation voted Leave now, even if a little concerned about it.0 -
"Yahoo confirms that 'state-sponsored actor' stole account information of at least 500m users"
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3802237/Yahoo-provide-details-massive-data-breach-Recode.html0 -
Isnt that old news. I thought that was why BT dumped them?AndyJS said:"Yahoo confirms that 'state-sponsored actor' stole account information of at least 500m users"
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3802237/Yahoo-provide-details-massive-data-breach-Recode.html0 -
Trump tells people leading the war on coal that he will end the war on coal.
https://twitter.com/MajorCBS/status/778989252134768640?ref_src=twsrc^tfw0 -
anyway the polling indicates the Dems that are switching to Trump are the over 65's who always vote.HYUFD said:
Almost as crazy as Leave targeting Labour voters from the lowest turnout group!Alistair said:
Dem voters are lazy and only turnout for Presidential elections. The last non-pres election they turned out for was 2006.MTimT said:
It's all the government employees in NoVa and the military's nervousness about Trump in both NoVa and Tidewater.Pulpstar said:
VA is one Trump won't win, is trending solidly Democrat perhaps more so than any other state.PlatoSaid said:Sahil Kapur
Virginia poll — Roanoke
Clinton 44% (-4 since mid-Aug)
Trump 37% (+5)
Johnson 8% (-)
Stein 1% (-2)
2-WAY
Clinton 51% (-4)
Trump 40% (+4)
Key trend: Clinton's PA-CO-VA firewall remains even as she slips elsewhere. If that holds, Trump needs a state like WI or NH to hit 270.
While I agree that Va is trending Dem, don't forget they almost lost the gubernatorial vote in 2013 in a squeaker, with a no-name GOPer ahead against a national name Dem (McAuliffe) until the very last of the NoVa districts came in. Final result Dem 47.75%. GOP 45.23%, Libertarian 6.52%. With a good GOP candidate that pulls in the libertarian vote, this state is still winnable for the GOP, if an uphill battle.
Which makes Trump's rustbelt strategy of targetting Dem voters from the lowest turnout group so risky.0 -
VA won't be the key state, CO, MI, WI, PA and probably NH all more GOP than VA on the night no matter the result I reckon.Andrew said:
Indeed - but even if Trump takes both, North Carolina, Nevada and Arizona he still comes up short.HYUFD said:
RCP now has Trump leading on average in both Florida and Ohio, no Republican since Nixon in 1960 has won those two states and lost the presidency
Virginia makes things awfully difficult for him.0 -
Brexit: a very British coup on BBC2 now0
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Ta!Casino_Royale said:Brexit: a very British coup on BBC2 now
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The least worst centre left response to Brexit I seen yet. It's still utterly awful but counts as progress on a few fronts. http://labourlist.org/2016/09/steve-reed-the-people-chose-brexit-so-we-must-show-them-labours-vision-of-taking-back-control-in-british-politics/0
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Farage and Fox looking quite chummy.Casino_Royale said:Brexit: a very British coup on BBC2 now
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Thanks, just tuned inCasino_Royale said:Brexit: a very British coup on BBC2 now
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I see a load of Hollywood actors have done a Democrat vid.
Another shade of Brexit...0 -
More middle aged white working class non college graduates living in the rustbeltnunu said:
anyway the polling indicates the Dems that are switching to Trump are the over 65's who always vote.HYUFD said:
Almost as crazy as Leave targeting Labour voters from the lowest turnout group!Alistair said:
Dem voters are lazy and only turnout for Presidential elections. The last non-pres election they turned out for was 2006.MTimT said:
It's all the government employees in NoVa and the military's nervousness about Trump in both NoVa and Tidewater.Pulpstar said:
VA is one Trump won't win, is trending solidly Democrat perhaps more so than any other state.PlatoSaid said:Sahil Kapur
Virginia poll — Roanoke
Clinton 44% (-4 since mid-Aug)
Trump 37% (+5)
Johnson 8% (-)
Stein 1% (-2)
2-WAY
Clinton 51% (-4)
Trump 40% (+4)
Key trend: Clinton's PA-CO-VA firewall remains even as she slips elsewhere. If that holds, Trump needs a state like WI or NH to hit 270.
While I agree that Va is trending Dem, don't forget they almost lost the gubernatorial vote in 2013 in a squeaker, with a no-name GOPer ahead against a national name Dem (McAuliffe) until the very last of the NoVa districts came in. Final result Dem 47.75%. GOP 45.23%, Libertarian 6.52%. With a good GOP candidate that pulls in the libertarian vote, this state is still winnable for the GOP, if an uphill battle.
Which makes Trump's rustbelt strategy of targetting Dem voters from the lowest turnout group so risky.0 -
Jesus. Don't they ever learn?Pulpstar said:I see a load of Hollywood actors have done a Democrat vid.
Another shade of Brexit...0 -
There were some people in Hollywood who backed Brexit (Joan Collins, Ringo Starr and Sharon Osborne to name but three) and some like Clint Eastwood, Scott Baio and Kelsey Grammar are backing Trump, although they are of course very much a minorityPulpstar said:I see a load of Hollywood actors have done a Democrat vid.
Another shade of Brexit...0 -
Agree with the exception of MI.Pulpstar said:
VA won't be the key state, CO, MI, WI, PA and probably NH all more GOP than VA on the night no matter the result I reckon.Andrew said:
Indeed - but even if Trump takes both, North Carolina, Nevada and Arizona he still comes up short.HYUFD said:
RCP now has Trump leading on average in both Florida and Ohio, no Republican since Nixon in 1960 has won those two states and lost the presidency
Virginia makes things awfully difficult for him.0 -
The move by a series of ambitious Blairite and modernisers curled with today's Sennedd vote suggests Labour is converging on May's ' immigration control first ' negotiating strategy.This is doubtless after a Summer talking to constituents in big Leave areas and realising voters won't budge now there world view has been validated in a national referendum. So the tiny chance of us remaining a member of the Single Market vanishes entirely. To the best of my knowledge no advanced, consumerist democracy has ever deliberately chosen to be slightly but permanently poorer before to further a noneconomic goal. The nearest but inexact comparison would be the catastrophic occupations of Afghanistan and Iraq. Neither is a happy precident. This is going to be interesting as they say.0
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What are people who are culturally literate, creative, intelligent, vibrant, open minded to do? Just not say anything.Casino_Royale said:
Jesus. Don't they ever learn?Pulpstar said:I see a load of Hollywood actors have done a Democrat vid.
Another shade of Brexit...
Or should they all sink to the murky, populist, nihilistic, lowest common denominator, ill educated, nasty crowd and cheer on lying morons.. and join the likes of.Brexit, Trump, Le Pen, Climate change conspiracists and their horrible, horrible ilk.......0 -
Landmark WTO ruling. EU told to get fucked, mega win for the US.0
-
0
-
Thank you for reinforcing my point.tyson said:
What are people who are culturally literate, creative, intelligent, vibrant, open minded to do? Just not say anything.Casino_Royale said:
Jesus. Don't they ever learn?Pulpstar said:I see a load of Hollywood actors have done a Democrat vid.
Another shade of Brexit...
Or should they all sink to the murky, populist, nihilistic, lowest common denominator, ill educated, nasty crowd and cheer on lying morons.. and join the likes of.Brexit, Trump, Le Pen, Climate change conspiracists and their horrible, horrible ilk.......0 -
What about Greece and Syriza? The US may choose to do so in just a few weeks time if Trump wins and takes the US out of NAFTA and the WTO as he may well do. Who knows what will happen if Wilders, or Le Pen or Beppe Grillo win in the next few years too.YellowSubmarine said:The move by a series of ambitious Blairite and modernisers curled with today's Sennedd vote suggests Labour is converging on May's ' immigration control first ' negotiating strategy.This is doubtless after a Summer talking to constituents in big Leave areas and realising voters won't budge now there world view has been validated in a national referendum. So the tiny chance of us remaining a member of the Single Market vanishes entirely. To the best of my knowledge no advanced, consumerist democracy has ever deliberately chosen to be slightly but permanently poorer before to further a noneconomic goal. The nearest but inexact comparison would be the catastrophic occupations of Afghanistan and Iraq. Neither is a happy precident. This is going to be interesting as they say.
In any case the polling is quite clear, UK voters prioritise controlling migration over the Single Market and that applies to Tory, Labour, UKIP and even SNP voters. Only LD and Green voters back the single market over immigration controls. Voters want a free trade deal of some sort but migration controls too
https://twitter.com/LordAshcroft/status/772705722073280512
0 -
Yes but the new news is that the breach is worse than first thought because Yahoo stored security questions and answers unencrypted. Just think about that for a minute, The hacker could phone your bank, credit card people or anyone else and (probably) get through the security questions -- because different companies tend to use variations on the same themes. It used to be your mother's maiden name, now it is more likely to be things like your first car or favourite sports team (which in America is basically asking which state you live in).Paul_Bedfordshire said:
Isnt that old news. I thought that was why BT dumped them?AndyJS said:"Yahoo confirms that 'state-sponsored actor' stole account information of at least 500m users"
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3802237/Yahoo-provide-details-massive-data-breach-Recode.html0 -
Or they could avoid doing self-delaying videos or giving speeches to the U.N. to demonstrate how worthy they are and go and engage with the concerns of normal peopletyson said:
What are people who are culturally literate, creative, intelligent, vibrant, open minded to do? Just not say anything.Casino_Royale said:
Jesus. Don't they ever learn?Pulpstar said:I see a load of Hollywood actors have done a Democrat vid.
Another shade of Brexit...
Or should they all sink to the murky, populist, nihilistic, lowest common denominator, ill educated, nasty crowd and cheer on lying morons.. and join the likes of.Brexit, Trump, Le Pen, Climate change conspiracists and their horrible, horrible ilk.......0 -
"ilk" doesn't mean what you think it means. A mistake frequently made by the illiterate and ill-educated.tyson said:
What are people who are culturally literate, creative, intelligent, vibrant, open minded to do? Just not say anything.Casino_Royale said:
Jesus. Don't they ever learn?Pulpstar said:I see a load of Hollywood actors have done a Democrat vid.
Another shade of Brexit...
Or should they all sink to the murky, populist, nihilistic, lowest common denominator, ill educated, nasty crowd and cheer on lying morons.. and join the likes of.Brexit, Trump, Le Pen, Climate change conspiracists and their horrible, horrible ilk.......
0 -
Yes they should. It's much more fun.tyson said:
What are people who are culturally literate, creative, intelligent, vibrant, open minded to do? Just not say anything.Casino_Royale said:
Jesus. Don't they ever learn?Pulpstar said:I see a load of Hollywood actors have done a Democrat vid.
Another shade of Brexit...
Or should they all sink to the murky, populist, nihilistic, lowest common denominator, ill educated, nasty crowd and cheer on lying morons.. and join the likes of.Brexit, Trump, Le Pen, Climate change conspiracists and their horrible, horrible ilk.......0 -
Can't believe you used an emoticon in reply to tyson, you monster.Ishmael_X said:
"ilk" doesn't mean what you think it means. A mistake frequently made by the illiterate and ill-educated.tyson said:
What are people who are culturally literate, creative, intelligent, vibrant, open minded to do? Just not say anything.Casino_Royale said:
Jesus. Don't they ever learn?Pulpstar said:I see a load of Hollywood actors have done a Democrat vid.
Another shade of Brexit...
Or should they all sink to the murky, populist, nihilistic, lowest common denominator, ill educated, nasty crowd and cheer on lying morons.. and join the likes of.Brexit, Trump, Le Pen, Climate change conspiracists and their horrible, horrible ilk.......0 -
The nearest but inexact comparison for a coercive union between disparate states under a technocratic ruling elite is the Soviet Union. That didn't end well either.YellowSubmarine said:The move by a series of ambitious Blairite and modernisers curled with today's Sennedd vote suggests Labour is converging on May's ' immigration control first ' negotiating strategy.This is doubtless after a Summer talking to constituents in big Leave areas and realising voters won't budge now there world view has been validated in a national referendum. So the tiny chance of us remaining a member of the Single Market vanishes entirely. To the best of my knowledge no advanced, consumerist democracy has ever deliberately chosen to be slightly but permanently poorer before to further a noneconomic goal. The nearest but inexact comparison would be the catastrophic occupations of Afghanistan and Iraq. Neither is a happy precident. This is going to be interesting as they say.
Brexit has at least the potential to deliver greater prosperity in the longer term. It's all a question of timescales.0 -
RobD said:
Thanks. Seems like they're both at it, though.
0 -
RobD said:
Can't believe you used an emoticon in reply to tyson, you monster.Ishmael_X said:
"ilk" doesn't mean what you think it means. A mistake frequently made by the illiterate and ill-educated.tyson said:
What are people who are culturally literate, creative, intelligent, vibrant, open minded to do? Just not say anything.Casino_Royale said:
Jesus. Don't they ever learn?Pulpstar said:I see a load of Hollywood actors have done a Democrat vid.
Another shade of Brexit...
Or should they all sink to the murky, populist, nihilistic, lowest common denominator, ill educated, nasty crowd and cheer on lying morons.. and join the likes of.Brexit, Trump, Le Pen, Climate change conspiracists and their horrible, horrible ilk....... 0 -
They are replicating.....Ishmael_X said:RobD said:
Can't believe you used an emoticon in reply to tyson, you monster.Ishmael_X said:
"ilk" doesn't mean what you think it means. A mistake frequently made by the illiterate and ill-educated.tyson said:
What are people who are culturally literate, creative, intelligent, vibrant, open minded to do? Just not say anything.Casino_Royale said:
Jesus. Don't they ever learn?Pulpstar said:I see a load of Hollywood actors have done a Democrat vid.
Another shade of Brexit...
Or should they all sink to the murky, populist, nihilistic, lowest common denominator, ill educated, nasty crowd and cheer on lying morons.. and join the likes of.Brexit, Trump, Le Pen, Climate change conspiracists and their horrible, horrible ilk.......0 -
We have to behave more like Brexiters. Fight fire with fire. And we need new alliances. They'll be plenty of people who voted Leave who'll be horrified when the mob comes for them. Which it will in due course.tyson said:
What are people who are culturally literate, creative, intelligent, vibrant, open minded to do? Just not say anything.Casino_Royale said:
Jesus. Don't they ever learn?Pulpstar said:I see a load of Hollywood actors have done a Democrat vid.
Another shade of Brexit...
Or should they all sink to the murky, populist, nihilistic, lowest common denominator, ill educated, nasty crowd and cheer on lying morons.. and join the likes of.Brexit, Trump, Le Pen, Climate change conspiracists and their horrible, horrible ilk.......0 -
Ivanka's not horribleIshmael_X said:
"ilk" doesn't mean what you think it means. A mistake frequently made by the illiterate and ill-educated.tyson said:
What are people who are culturally literate, creative, intelligent, vibrant, open minded to do? Just not say anything.Casino_Royale said:
Jesus. Don't they ever learn?Pulpstar said:I see a load of Hollywood actors have done a Democrat vid.
Another shade of Brexit...
Or should they all sink to the murky, populist, nihilistic, lowest common denominator, ill educated, nasty crowd and cheer on lying morons.. and join the likes of.Brexit, Trump, Le Pen, Climate change conspiracists and their horrible, horrible ilk.......
0 -
@faisalislam: Congratulations to barrister @robertcourts the new Conservative PPC for Witney - decent chance of becoming an MP0
-
Perhaps the tedious twat means oik?Ishmael_X said:
"ilk" doesn't mean what you think it means. A mistake frequently made by the illiterate and ill-educated.tyson said:
What are people who are culturally literate, creative, intelligent, vibrant, open minded to do? Just not say anything.Casino_Royale said:
Jesus. Don't they ever learn?Pulpstar said:I see a load of Hollywood actors have done a Democrat vid.
Another shade of Brexit...
Or should they all sink to the murky, populist, nihilistic, lowest common denominator, ill educated, nasty crowd and cheer on lying morons.. and join the likes of.Brexit, Trump, Le Pen, Climate change conspiracists and their horrible, horrible ilk....... 0 -
BBC2 doc is all about Farage, and massively BBC. All about comic dumb amateur Leavers on the street against depressed sober Remainers in the capital.
The bias is oozing out of it.0 -
Don't forget about Chuck Norris and Steven Seagal backing Trump.HYUFD said:
There were some people in Hollywood who backed Brexit (Joan Collins, Ringo Starr and Sharon Osborne to name but three) and some like Clint Eastwood, Scott Baio and Kelsey Grammar are backing Trump, although they are of course very much a minorityPulpstar said:I see a load of Hollywood actors have done a Democrat vid.
Another shade of Brexit...0 -
An ilk is a sick moose, right?Ishmael_X said:
"ilk" doesn't mean what you think it means. A mistake frequently made by the illiterate and ill-educated.tyson said:
What are people who are culturally literate, creative, intelligent, vibrant, open minded to do? Just not say anything.Casino_Royale said:
Jesus. Don't they ever learn?Pulpstar said:I see a load of Hollywood actors have done a Democrat vid.
Another shade of Brexit...
Or should they all sink to the murky, populist, nihilistic, lowest common denominator, ill educated, nasty crowd and cheer on lying morons.. and join the likes of.Brexit, Trump, Le Pen, Climate change conspiracists and their horrible, horrible ilk.......0 -
Only decent? Has Islam lost his marbles?Scott_P said:@faisalislam: Congratulations to barrister @robertcourts the new Conservative PPC for Witney - decent chance of becoming an MP
0 -
Greece and Syriza backed down. The other examples are valid but haven't happened yet. But you are completely correct to suggest we may be seeing a west wide trend of turning on the architecture that's made us all rich and free.HYUFD said:
What about Greece and Syriza? The US may choose to do so in just a few weeks time if Trump wins and takes the US out of NAFTA and the WTO as he may well do. Who knows what will happen if Wilders, or Le Pen or Beppe Grillo win in the next few years too.YellowSubmarine said:The move by a series of ambitious Blairite and modernisers curled with today's Sennedd vote suggests Labour is converging on May's ' immigration control first ' negotiating strategy.This is doubtless after a Summer talking to constituents in big Leave areas and realising voters won't budge now there world view has been validated in a national referendum. So the tiny chance of us remaining a member of the Single Market vanishes entirely. To the best of my knowledge no advanced, consumerist democracy has ever deliberately chosen to be slightly but permanently poorer before to further a noneconomic goal. The nearest but inexact comparison would be the catastrophic occupations of Afghanistan and Iraq. Neither is a happy precident. This is going to be interesting as they say.
In any case the polling is quite clear, UK voters prioritise controlling migration over the Single Market and that applies to Tory, Labour, UKIP and even SNP voters. Only LD and Green voters back the single market over immigration controls. Voters want a free trade deal of some sort but migration controls too
https://twitter.com/LordAshcroft/status/7727057220732805120 -
There are a number of assumptions built into your post which may or may not be vindicated in due course.YellowSubmarine said:The move by a series of ambitious Blairite and modernisers curled with today's Sennedd vote suggests Labour is converging on May's ' immigration control first ' negotiating strategy.This is doubtless after a Summer talking to constituents in big Leave areas and realising voters won't budge now there world view has been validated in a national referendum. So the tiny chance of us remaining a member of the Single Market vanishes entirely. To the best of my knowledge no advanced, consumerist democracy has ever deliberately chosen to be slightly but permanently poorer before to further a noneconomic goal. The nearest but inexact comparison would be the catastrophic occupations of Afghanistan and Iraq. Neither is a happy precident. This is going to be interesting as they say.
Membership of the single market requires membership of the customs union of the EU which in turn presumes a waiver of our right to negotiate trade deals with the rest of the world independently.
It may be that that is a good trade off for the U.K. but it is by no means assured. It depends upon a trade off between EU trade and world trade. EU trade is the smaller proportion of our trade already and the trends are not in its favour.
If the price of membership of the single market is open boundaries it is not a price the majority are willing to pay. Turning down membership of the single market does not mean turning down free trade with it although I accept it will be less free involving customs costs such as proof of origin of UK goods. If that is the price of control of free movement then we simply have to hope that the opportunities of negotiating our own trade will set off any marginal loss arising from marginal cost in our trade with the EU.0 -
They'll be making that documentary for decades. On the 30th anniversary they'll be comparing the living standards and visuals of Leaverstan and A8 countries.Casino_Royale said:BBC2 doc is all about Farage, and massively BBC. All about comic dumb amateur Leavers on the street against depressed sober Remainers in the capital.
The bias is oozing out of it.0 -
@TelePolitics: Millionaire Ukip donor Paul Sykes announces plans to defect to Tories following Brexit telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/2…0
-
Will Straw is such an annoying prat. Quite telling that he has been excluded from the BSE rebrand.Casino_Royale said:BBC2 doc is all about Farage, and massively BBC. All about comic dumb amateur Leavers on the street against depressed sober Remainers in the capital.
The bias is oozing out of it.0 -
They were still voted in in the first place. Of course Switzerland and Norway voted against ever joining the EU at all. However as you say the next few years will be a rollercoaster rideYellowSubmarine said:
Greece and Syriza backed down. The other examples are valid but haven't happened yet. But you are completely correct to suggest we may be seeing a west wide trend of turning on the architecture that's made us all rich and free.HYUFD said:
What about Greece and Syriza? The US may choose to do so in just a few weeks time if Trump wins and takes the US out of NAFTA and the WTO as he may well do. Who knows what will happen if Wilders, or Le Pen or Beppe Grillo win in the next few years too.YellowSubmarine said:The move by a series of ambitious Blairite and modernisers curled with today's Sennedd vote suggests Labour is converging on May's ' immigration control first ' negotiating strategy.This is doubtless after a Summer talking to constituents in big Leave areas and realising voters won't budge now there world view has been validated in a national referendum. So the tiny chance of us remaining a member of the Single Market vanishes entirely. To the best of my knowledge no advanced, consumerist democracy has ever deliberately chosen to be slightly but permanently poorer before to further a noneconomic goal. The nearest but inexact comparison would be the catastrophic occupations of Afghanistan and Iraq. Neither is a happy precident. This is going to be interesting as they say.
In any case the polling is quite clear, UK voters prioritise controlling migration over the Single Market and that applies to Tory, Labour, UKIP and even SNP voters. Only LD and Green voters back the single market over immigration controls. Voters want a free trade deal of some sort but migration controls too
https://twitter.com/LordAshcroft/status/772705722073280512
Nicholas Soames shared many of your concerns about the consequences of Brexit for the country just now on the EU ref documentary. Duncan predicted a narrow Remain win as did Leave backing hedge funder Crispin Odey in his final polls0 -
The problem is Casino, as we will see with Corbyn's election...is that the numbers do not stack up. There are too many morons..as with Brexit. Because a vote is won doesn't make it right.Casino_Royale said:
Thank you for reinforcing my point.tyson said:
What are people who are culturally literate, creative, intelligent, vibrant, open minded to do? Just not say anything.Casino_Royale said:
Jesus. Don't they ever learn?Pulpstar said:I see a load of Hollywood actors have done a Democrat vid.
Another shade of Brexit...
Or should they all sink to the murky, populist, nihilistic, lowest common denominator, ill educated, nasty crowd and cheer on lying morons.. and join the likes of.Brexit, Trump, Le Pen, Climate change conspiracists and their horrible, horrible ilk.......
It's a difficult time at the minute for a passionate liberal, open minded, human rights, internationalist, collective advocate like myself..the tide is against me. But I know that ultimately the tide will come back, and the nasty, xenophobic, lowest common denominator crap that is pervading modern politics will be washed down the toilet of history where it belongs, and where it has been washed down before...
0 -
This is as old as Airbus. Even back in business school in 1990 we looked at the claims and counter-claims. US claims government direct subsidies of Airbus, EU claims US government does the same but disguises it as defence contracts.MarkHopkins said:RobD said:
Thanks. Seems like they're both at it, though.
PS In American Football there is a useful concept applicable here - off-setting penalties.0 -
Yes, action stars always lean more to the right, see Arnie tooMP_SE said:
Don't forget about Chuck Norris and Steven Seagal backing Trump.HYUFD said:
There were some people in Hollywood who backed Brexit (Joan Collins, Ringo Starr and Sharon Osborne to name but three) and some like Clint Eastwood, Scott Baio and Kelsey Grammar are backing Trump, although they are of course very much a minorityPulpstar said:I see a load of Hollywood actors have done a Democrat vid.
Another shade of Brexit...0 -
If the Government are then, I fear, they are liable to be disappointed. The rest of the EU *might* be prepared to take a few lessons from Britain on what to do about refugees, but the four freedoms for EU citizens and businesses are as totemic for the EU as the Euro project, if not more so.Casino_Royale said:
I think HMG is hoping this sacred cow is slaughtered similarly quickly in continental Europe through the 2017 elections; hopefully, prior to invoking Article 50.AndyJS said:"Chuka Umunna: We Should Be Prepared To Sacrifice Single Market Membership To Axe Freedom Of Movement"
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/chuka-umunna-single-market-free-movement-brexit_uk_57e3e201e4b0db20a6e8b057
I gain the impression that continental politicians - the great majority of whom face being totally discredited and seeing much of their life's work ruined if the EU fails - fear that any compromise on fundamental principles will lead to the whole edifice falling down. They've been trying hard enough - albeit stopping short of what's needed to apply a permanent fix - to save the rotten Euro. I certainly don't see them yielding an inch on the four freedoms.0 -
It's already at their door. Most of them seem to be acquiescing with the idea of leaving the single market, even though they always claimed that the EEC option would be an easy formality, without thinking about the political dynamics involved.YellowSubmarine said:
We have to behave more like Brexiters. Fight fire with fire. And we need new alliances. They'll be plenty of people who voted Leave who'll be horrified when the mob comes for them. Which it will in due course.tyson said:
What are people who are culturally literate, creative, intelligent, vibrant, open minded to do? Just not say anything.Casino_Royale said:
Jesus. Don't they ever learn?Pulpstar said:I see a load of Hollywood actors have done a Democrat vid.
Another shade of Brexit...
Or should they all sink to the murky, populist, nihilistic, lowest common denominator, ill educated, nasty crowd and cheer on lying morons.. and join the likes of.Brexit, Trump, Le Pen, Climate change conspiracists and their horrible, horrible ilk.......0 -
Ah, the heady days when Brexit meant..er..something different from what it means today. What will tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow bring?!
https://twitter.com/BBCJLandale/status/7790314092394250250 -
A few years from now, you'll be one of us.tyson said:
The problem is Casino, as we will see with Corbyn's election...is that the numbers do not stack up. There are too many morons..as with Brexit. Because a vote is won doesn't make it right.Casino_Royale said:
Thank you for reinforcing my point.tyson said:
What are people who are culturally literate, creative, intelligent, vibrant, open minded to do? Just not say anything.Casino_Royale said:
Jesus. Don't they ever learn?Pulpstar said:I see a load of Hollywood actors have done a Democrat vid.
Another shade of Brexit...
Or should they all sink to the murky, populist, nihilistic, lowest common denominator, ill educated, nasty crowd and cheer on lying morons.. and join the likes of.Brexit, Trump, Le Pen, Climate change conspiracists and their horrible, horrible ilk.......
It's a difficult time at the minute for a passionate liberal, open minded, human rights, internationalist, collective advocate like myself..the tide is against me. But I know that ultimately the tide will come back, and the nasty, xenophobic, lowest common denominator crap that is pervading modern politics will be washed down the toilet of history where it belongs, and where it has been washed down before...
"Two gin-scented tears flowed down the side of his nose. But, it was all right now. Everything was going to be all right. Tyson had won the victory over himself. He loved Donald Trump."0 -
I agree with your analysis. I'm extremely gloomy that a protectionist and insular event like the Leave vote will translate into a burst of freer trade with the rest of the world. I'm as certain as I can be that even if I'm wrong on point one that Leaverstan will be devastated by turbo charged globalisation after having voted against Free Range European globalisation. But you are right about my assumptions and I agree with your analysis of the trade offs at play.DavidL said:
There are a number of assumptions built into your post which may or may not be vindicated in due course.YellowSubmarine said:The move by a series of ambitious Blairite and modernisers curled with today's Sennedd vote suggests Labour is converging on May's ' immigration control first ' negotiating strategy.This is doubtless after a Summer talking to constituents in big Leave areas and realising voters won't budge now there world view has been validated in a national referendum. So the tiny chance of us remaining a member of the Single Market vanishes entirely. To the best of my knowledge no advanced, consumerist democracy has ever deliberately chosen to be slightly but permanently poorer before to further a noneconomic goal. The nearest but inexact comparison would be the catastrophic occupations of Afghanistan and Iraq. Neither is a happy precident. This is going to be interesting as they say.
Membership of the single market requires membership of the customs union of the EU which in turn presumes a waiver of our right to negotiate trade deals with the rest of the world independently.
It may be that that is a good trade off for the U.K. but it is by no means assured. It depends upon a trade off between EU trade and world trade. EU trade is the smaller proportion of our trade already and the trends are not in its favour.
If the price of membership of the single market is open boundaries it is not a price the majority are willing to pay. Turning down membership of the single market does not mean turning down free trade with it although I accept it will be less free involving customs costs such as proof of origin of UK goods. If that is the price of control of free movement then we simply have to hope that the opportunities of negotiating our own trade will set off any marginal loss arising from marginal cost in our trade with the EU.0 -
Remember before Dave, Witney had a Labour MP.RobD said:
Only decent? Has Islam lost his marbles?Scott_P said:@faisalislam: Congratulations to barrister @robertcourts the new Conservative PPC for Witney - decent chance of becoming an MP
People forget and underestimate the awesomeness of Dave.0 -
Yes, but you are also a bit of a dick yourself, aren't you?tyson said:
The problem is Casino, as we will see with Corbyn's election...is that the numbers do not stack up. There are too many morons..as with Brexit. Because a vote is won doesn't make it right.Casino_Royale said:
Thank you for reinforcing my point.tyson said:
What are people who are culturally literate, creative, intelligent, vibrant, open minded to do? Just not say anything.Casino_Royale said:
Jesus. Don't they ever learn?Pulpstar said:I see a load of Hollywood actors have done a Democrat vid.
Another shade of Brexit...
Or should they all sink to the murky, populist, nihilistic, lowest common denominator, ill educated, nasty crowd and cheer on lying morons.. and join the likes of.Brexit, Trump, Le Pen, Climate change conspiracists and their horrible, horrible ilk.......
It's a difficult time at the minute for a passionate liberal, open minded, human rights, internationalist, collective advocate like myself..the tide is against me. But I know that ultimately the tide will come back, and the nasty, xenophobic, lowest common denominator crap that is pervading modern politics will be washed down the toilet of history where it belongs, and where it has been washed down before...
I've always thought that your biggest problem is that there is a part of yourself you really don't like.0 -
I think you are bing a little naughty, TSETheScreamingEagles said:
Remember before Dave, Witney had a Labour MP.RobD said:
Only decent? Has Islam lost his marbles?Scott_P said:@faisalislam: Congratulations to barrister @robertcourts the new Conservative PPC for Witney - decent chance of becoming an MP
People forget and underestimate the awesomeness of Dave. 0 -
I hope they do.YellowSubmarine said:
They'll be making that documentary for decades. On the 30th anniversary they'll be comparing the living standards and visuals of Leaverstan and A8 countries.Casino_Royale said:BBC2 doc is all about Farage, and massively BBC. All about comic dumb amateur Leavers on the street against depressed sober Remainers in the capital.
The bias is oozing out of it.
I think we have an amazing future.0 -
You could say Witney's had a Blairite MP since 1997.TheScreamingEagles said:
Remember before Dave, Witney had a Labour MP.RobD said:
Only decent? Has Islam lost his marbles?Scott_P said:@faisalislam: Congratulations to barrister @robertcourts the new Conservative PPC for Witney - decent chance of becoming an MP
People forget and underestimate the awesomeness of Dave.0 -
Blimey, who's this bloke on the referendum documentary who made a fortune?!0
-
I assume the PB African American Rampers for Trump have been spamming posting this on PB?
Trump campaign chair in Ohio resigns over ‘no racism before Obama' remarks
Kathy Miller, chair in a crucial Ohio county, resigned after the Guardian released video of her saying, ‘It’s their own fault’ if black people haven’t succeeded
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/sep/22/trump-campaign-chair-kathy-miller-resigns-ohio-racism-obama0 -
Spot on. There are a number of inexact but really striking parallels between the Leave event and the Corbyn phenomenon. One reason I'm not arguing for a second referendum.tyson said:
The problem is Casino, as we will see with Corbyn's election...is that the numbers do not stack up. There are too many morons..as with Brexit. Because a vote is won doesn't make it right.Casino_Royale said:
Thank you for reinforcing my point.tyson said:
What are people who are culturally literate, creative, intelligent, vibrant, open minded to do? Just not say anything.Casino_Royale said:
Jesus. Don't they ever learn?Pulpstar said:I see a load of Hollywood actors have done a Democrat vid.
Another shade of Brexit...
Or should they all sink to the murky, populist, nihilistic, lowest common denominator, ill educated, nasty crowd and cheer on lying morons.. and join the likes of.Brexit, Trump, Le Pen, Climate change conspiracists and their horrible, horrible ilk.......
It's a difficult time at the minute for a passionate liberal, open minded, human rights, internationalist, collective advocate like myself..the tide is against me. But I know that ultimately the tide will come back, and the nasty, xenophobic, lowest common denominator crap that is pervading modern politics will be washed down the toilet of history where it belongs, and where it has been washed down before...0
