politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The LAB selectorate polls don’t always get it right – remem

DavidL said:

Tim_B said:

DavidL said:

weejonnie said:

Alistair said:

weejonnie said:

Weird - we have two National Polls on 538

Poll 1 : Trump +7 (LV)
Poll 2: Clinton +9 (AV)

Is this a record divergence?

(And a Pennsylvania - Trump +1)

I'm totally not seeing any of these polls on 538, could you link?

You have to refresh the 'updates page http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/updates/ the top 3 are Monday 10.30 EDT (3.30pm)

The Pennsylvania one is interesting because it is by a Democratic leaning pollster who has Hillary ahead by 9 nationally. If Penn does become competitive, and there is no sign of that till now, the FOP that @JackW has been going on about is distinctly possible.

Hillary has had Obama campaigning for her in PA last week.That's a sign that PA is competitive.

But look at the polling to date: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/pa/pennsylvania_trump_vs_clinton_vs_johnson_vs_stein-5964.html

This is either a very big move or a rogue poll.

I see what the polls say, but you campaign where you need to, where it'll make a difference, not where you're safely ahead.

Tim_B said:

DavidL said:

Tim_B said:

DavidL said:

weejonnie said:

Alistair said:

weejonnie said:

Weird - we have two National Polls on 538

Poll 1 : Trump +7 (LV)
Poll 2: Clinton +9 (AV)

Is this a record divergence?

(And a Pennsylvania - Trump +1)

I'm totally not seeing any of these polls on 538, could you link?

You have to refresh the 'updates page http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/updates/ the top 3 are Monday 10.30 EDT (3.30pm)

The Pennsylvania one is interesting because it is by a Democratic leaning pollster who has Hillary ahead by 9 nationally. If Penn does become competitive, and there is no sign of that till now, the FOP that @JackW has been going on about is distinctly possible.

Hillary has had Obama campaigning for her in PA last week.That's a sign that PA is competitive.

But look at the polling to date: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/pa/pennsylvania_trump_vs_clinton_vs_johnson_vs_stein-5964.html

This is either a very big move or a rogue poll.

I see what the polls say, but you campaign where you need to, where it'll make a difference, not where you're safely ahead.

It looks as if PA is safely HRC - so Trump's reduced to the Colorado/ Michigan/ Wisconsin / New Hampshire route (Nevada has gone pink). But the thing is - he needs the others (North Carolina/ Florida/ Ohio/ Iowa), none of which are gimmees.

Fox are saying that the guy was found just walking down a residential street waving his gun before a shoot out and arrest.

weejonnie said:

Tim_B said:

DavidL said:

Tim_B said:

DavidL said:

weejonnie said:

Alistair said:

weejonnie said:

Weird - we have two National Polls on 538

Poll 1 : Trump +7 (LV)
Poll 2: Clinton +9 (AV)

Is this a record divergence?

(And a Pennsylvania - Trump +1)

I'm totally not seeing any of these polls on 538, could you link?

You have to refresh the 'updates page http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/updates/ the top 3 are Monday 10.30 EDT (3.30pm)

The Pennsylvania one is interesting because it is by a Democratic leaning pollster who has Hillary ahead by 9 nationally. If Penn does become competitive, and there is no sign of that till now, the FOP that @JackW has been going on about is distinctly possible.

Hillary has had Obama campaigning for her in PA last week.That's a sign that PA is competitive.

But look at the polling to date: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/pa/pennsylvania_trump_vs_clinton_vs_johnson_vs_stein-5964.html

This is either a very big move or a rogue poll.

I see what the polls say, but you campaign where you need to, where it'll make a difference, not where you're safely ahead.

It looks as if PA is safely HRC - so Trump's reduced to the Colorado/ Michigan/ Wisconsin / New Hampshire route (Nevada has gone pink). But the thing is - he needs the others (North Carolina/ Florida/ Ohio/ Iowa), none of which are gimmees.

Pennsylvania has Philadephia, it can drag the entire state towards the democrats.

There are 3 reasons why I always believed Michigan is more soft towards a republican than Pennsylvania:

1. There is no Philadephia in Michigan
2. Michigan is worse economically.
3. Michigan has a GOP governor.

But unfortunately there has only been a single poll in Pennsylvania and Michigan lately.

williamglenn said:

weejonnie said:

Tim_B said:

DavidL said:

Tim_B said:

DavidL said:

weejonnie said:

Alistair said:

weejonnie said:

Weird - we have two National Polls on 538

Poll 1 : Trump +7 (LV)
Poll 2: Clinton +9 (AV)

Is this a record divergence?

(And a Pennsylvania - Trump +1)

I'm totally not seeing any of these polls on 538, could you link?

You have to refresh the 'updates page http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/updates/ the top 3 are Monday 10.30 EDT (3.30pm)

..snip..

Hillary has had Obama campaigning for her in PA last week.That's a sign that PA is competitive.

But look at the polling to date: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/pa/pennsylvania_trump_vs_clinton_vs_johnson_vs_stein-5964.html

This is either a very big move or a rogue poll.

I see what the polls say, but you campaign where you need to, where it'll make a difference, not where you're safely ahead.

It looks as if PA is safely HRC - so Trump's reduced to the Colorado/ Michigan/ Wisconsin / New Hampshire route (Nevada has gone pink). But the thing is - he needs the others (North Carolina/ Florida/ Ohio/ Iowa), none of which are gimmees.

If Obama is campaigning in PA then they obviously don't think it's safe.

Is there any metric other than polling that would suggest this will be Hillary's year?

Nothing that I can think of and there is an ongoing rise of nationalism which is playing to Trump - globalism is being exposed as a capitalist wet dream stamping on the faces of the workers for ever. The intentional devices attack in NYC and NJ are another fillip to Trump (as is the stabbing in that Mall when the attacker was taken out by an off-duty policeman with a gun. Clinton hasn't said she would try and revoke the 2nd Amendment but the fear for many Americans is that she would (by the SCOTUS) make it so hard to own guns that their usage would plummet.) This is just one of the things polarising the country.

Obama has just accused anyone of voting against Clinton as being Sexist - you can't make it up! All the non-verbals coming out from the parties suggest that the Democrats are slightly concerned that the trend in the opinion polls is developing not necessarily to their advantage.

In the coming debates, the onus is going to be on Clinton to raise her game and come over as a more enthusiastic and compassionate leader. At the moment she has all the voter appeal of a week old haddock.

Owen Smith says Corbyn should have been given more time before being challenged. He didn't want to challenege, but once Eagle started it he felt he had to throw his name in. Which, if it was really the case, he could have pulled out after getting the nominations of course.

Sounds more like he's basically trying to set the way to submit to the Corbynistas after defeat, give a reason for moderates to back Corbyn, play nice and hope for no deselections.

To me this says a split much less likely, and the PLP has chosen the proverbial shut up as its next steps.

FrancisUrquhart said:

rottenborough said:

MikeSmithson said:

rcs1000 said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

rcs1000 said:

Two quick discussion points:

1. Anyone buying an Android phone that's not the new OnePlus 3 is a fool*.

2. Did Diane James really say that - alongside Churchill and Thatcher - Putin was one of her heroes?

* OK, maybe foolish, rather than a fool.

What is so good about the OnePlus 3? I know little about it, other than they had some viral marketing campaign.

1. Fabulous build quality. It really feels as good as an iPhone in terms of how it's made, really premium.

2. It's got a clean Android build, with no bloat. And it has 7mb of RAM, so it absolutely flies. It's the only Android phone I know that makes my iPhone feel slow.

3. It's £320. That's half the price of an iPhone or a Samsung or an HTC.

I've had a OnePlus 3 for a month and it is as sensational as people say. It is the only smartphone to have 6GB RAM which makes it amazingly fast. Everything just works instantly.

Its Dash charging system outperforms by a big margin other fast chargers..

Its lovely to hold and the screen is a gem. Fantastic.

Does it hiss?

OGH one does when it gets close to Kippers....

Oh, that sounds a good app. Can I get one?

FrancisUrquhart said:

Suspect been shot and injured and being taken away in an ambulance. Police also been shot.

Hope his medical insurance is up to date....

Doesn't matter - if you present at ER they have to treat you regardless of insurance. One reason the ER is such an expense to hospitals.

If anyone has a green on the BF POTUS field and wants some free money....

Lay Michelle Obama @ 719/1

https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/#/politics/market/1.107373419

Scott_P said:

Tim_B said:

Doesn't matter - if you present at ER they have to treat you regardless of insurance. One reason the ER is such an expense to hospitals.

Talking of health insurance, what's is Tony Romo's premium these days...

Ouch....

Meanwhile, in Liberal Democrat Land, resistance to quietly forgetting the "Democrat" bit emerges from a surprising quarter...

The Lib Dems, who campaigned to stay in the EU, are pushing for a referendum on the terms of a final Brexit deal.

However, former Lib Dem business secretary Vince Cable said the party "must accept" the referendum result and stop focusing on a second vote...

...Lib Dem party members endorsed a proposal for a referendum on the terms of the final Brexit deal negotiated by the government, with the option of remaining in the EU.

Leader Tim Farron has made calls for another referendum a key part of the Lib Dems' pitch, and a central theme of its conference, while insisting he respects the Brexit result.

But Mr Cable, who lost his seat at the 2015 general election, has said holding a second vote "raises a lot of fundamental problems".

Mr Cable, who voted against the motion, told a fringe meeting he understood the anger at the outcome of the Brexit vote but it was wrong to think it could be reversed.

"The public have voted and I do think it's seriously disrespectful and politically utterly counterproductive to say 'sorry guys, you've got it wrong, we're going to try again'.

"I don't think we can do that. That's a personal view, and a lot of people won't share that view."

Mr Cable said he was "not criticising" Mr Farron, but rather he wanted to "see more emphasis on what it is we want from these negotiations rather than arguing about the tactics and the means".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37402949

FrancisUrquhart said:

Tim_B said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Suspect been shot and injured and being taken away in an ambulance. Police also been shot.

Hope his medical insurance is up to date....

Doesn't matter - if you present at ER they have to treat you regardless of insurance. One reason the ER is such an expense to hospitals.

I know...it was a joke.

There is actually a lot of misunderstanding this side of the Atlantic on how the US system actually works. I think a large percentage of British public think that they wouldn't see you at ER without them first swiping your credit card.

The bill afterwards can make your eyes water. One reason that medical bills are the major cause of personal bankrupcy in the USA.

Though in the USA bankrupcy doesn't carry quite the stigma as on this side of the pond.

Paristonda said:

Owen Smith says Corbyn should have been given more time before being challenged. He didn't want to challenege, but once Eagle started it he felt he had to throw his name in. Which, if it was really the case, he could have pulled out after getting the nominations of course.

Sounds more like he's basically trying to set the way to submit to the Corbynistas after defeat, give a reason for moderates to back Corbyn, play nice and hope for no deselections.

To me this says a split much less likely, and the PLP has chosen the proverbial shut up as its next steps.

The man is utterly pointless.

He has no political skills, no presentational skills, nothing to offer.

FrancisUrquhart said:

Clinton press conference going nuclear on Trump, saying that he is encouraging terrorists, that his comments are being used for recruiting terrorists online....

Campaign getting very nasty.

The moderators in the debates are going to have their hands full.

Was always going to be so. Compare the number of policies from each candidate, with the number of personal comments against their opponent.

FrancisUrquhart said:

Tim_B said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Suspect been shot and injured and being taken away in an ambulance. Police also been shot.

Hope his medical insurance is up to date....

Doesn't matter - if you present at ER they have to treat you regardless of insurance. One reason the ER is such an expense to hospitals.

I know...it was a joke.

There is actually a lot of misunderstanding this side of the Atlantic on how the US system actually works. I think a large percentage of British public think that they wouldn't see you at ER without them first swiping your credit card.

Well, I for one don't understand the US Health system. A friend of mine, a Brit, was taken ill was on holiday in Texas. She was whipped into the local A&E, diagnosed had surgery, a short recovery period (no more/less than she needed), all round spiffing treatment and was given a bill in exchange for which she gave her holiday insurance details and that was that. Except weeks after she got a letter from the hospital saying the insurance company were refusing to pay up, she filed the letter in File 13 and never heard another word from anyone.

On the other hand one of my gaming partners and a US citizen was a few months ago diagnosed with a cancer, surgery seems to have sorted it, but none of the follow up treatment/drugs that one would expect from the NHS, as when my wife had her cancer. His life savings are now gone and he is having to hand over a significant chunk of his pension every month, probably for the rest of his life, to settle the debt because of some small print clause in his health insurance.

I'll moan about the NHS with the best of them and, God knows, I have had good reason to do so, but I think I prefer it to being in the hands of the modern insurance industry. Bankers are noble citizens compared to the thieving toerags who run insurance companies.

Speedy said:

weejonnie said:

Tim_B said:

DavidL said:

Tim_B said:

DavidL said:

weejonnie said:

Alistair said:

weejonnie said:

Weird - we have two National Polls on 538

Poll 1 : Trump +7 (LV)
Poll 2: Clinton +9 (AV)

Is this a record divergence?

(And a Pennsylvania - Trump +1)

I'm totally not seeing any of these polls on 538, could you link?

You have to refresh the 'updates page http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/updates/ the top 3 are Monday 10.30 EDT (3.30pm)

The Pennsylvania one is interesting because it is by a Democratic leaning pollster who has Hillary ahead by 9 nationally. If Penn does become competitive, and there is no sign of that till now, the FOP that @JackW has been going on about is distinctly possible.

Hillary has had Obama campaigning for her in PA last week.That's a sign that PA is competitive.

But look at the polling to date: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/pa/pennsylvania_trump_vs_clinton_vs_johnson_vs_stein-5964.html

This is either a very big move or a rogue poll.

I see what the polls say, but you campaign where you need to, where it'll make a difference, not where you're safely ahead.

It looks as if PA is safely HRC - so Trump's reduced to the Colorado/ Michigan/ Wisconsin / New Hampshire route (Nevada has gone pink). But the thing is - he needs the others (North Carolina/ Florida/ Ohio/ Iowa), none of which are gimmees.

Pennsylvania has Philadephia, it can drag the entire state towards the democrats.

There are 3 reasons why I always believed Michigan is more soft towards a republican than Pennsylvania:

1. There is no Philadephia in Michigan
2. Michigan is worse economically.
3. Michigan has a GOP governor.

But unfortunately there has only been a single poll in Pennsylvania and Michigan lately.

4. Michigan, like Wisconsin, has enacted a 'Right to Work' lore, that has significantly reduced the power of the locale trade unions, and Will/May decrease the ability of the Unions to run large scale Get out The Vote' operations. How significant will the be? don't know, maybe negligible, but I suspect more than negligible.

foxinsoxuk said:

oxfordsimon said:

Paristonda said:

Owen Smith says Corbyn should have been given more time before being challenged. He didn't want to challenege, but once Eagle started it he felt he had to throw his name in. Which, if it was really the case, he could have pulled out after getting the nominations of course.

Sounds more like he's basically trying to set the way to submit to the Corbynistas after defeat, give a reason for moderates to back Corbyn, play nice and hope for no deselections.

To me this says a split much less likely, and the PLP has chosen the proverbial shut up as its next steps.

The man is utterly pointless.

He has no political skills, no presentational skills, nothing to offer.

Angela Eagle would have been better, for all her faults.

I am not sure on that. Her only appeal seemed to be that she was a woman. "Look at me, I have a pink logo" - that is not enough to get people to vote for you.

Plus the disaster of her launch press conference where no serious political journalists bothered to stay to the end says all you need to know about her prospects.

HYUFD said:

foxinsoxuk said:

oxfordsimon said:

Paristonda said:

Owen Smith says Corbyn should have been given more time before being challenged. He didn't want to challenege, but once Eagle started it he felt he had to throw his name in. Which, if it was really the case, he could have pulled out after getting the nominations of course.

Sounds more like he's basically trying to set the way to submit to the Corbynistas after defeat, give a reason for moderates to back Corbyn, play nice and hope for no deselections.

To me this says a split much less likely, and the PLP has chosen the proverbial shut up as its next steps.

The man is utterly pointless.

He has no political skills, no presentational skills, nothing to offer.

Angela Eagle would have been better, for all her faults.

Backing the Iraq War though would have killed her too

It is amazing that agreeing with official party policy can be so toxic.

williamglenn said:

weejonnie said:

Tim_B said:

DavidL said:

Tim_B said:

DavidL said:

weejonnie said:

Alistair said:

weejonnie said:

Weird - we have two National Polls on 538

Poll 1 : Trump +7 (LV)
Poll 2: Clinton +9 (AV)

Is this a record divergence?

(And a Pennsylvania - Trump +1)

I'm totally not seeing any of these polls on 538, could you link?

You have to refresh the 'updates page http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/updates/ the top 3 are Monday 10.30 EDT (3.30pm)

The Pennsylvania one is interesting because it is by a Democratic leaning pollster who has Hillary ahead by 9 nationally. If Penn does become competitive, and there is no sign of that till now, the FOP that @JackW has been going on about is distinctly possible.

Hillary has had Obama campaigning for her in PA last week.That's a sign that PA is competitive.

But look at the polling to date: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/pa/pennsylvania_trump_vs_clinton_vs_johnson_vs_stein-5964.html

This is either a very big move or a rogue poll.

I see what the polls say, but you campaign where you need to, where it'll make a difference, not where you're safely ahead.

It looks as if PA is safely HRC - so Trump's reduced to the Colorado/ Michigan/ Wisconsin / New Hampshire route (Nevada has gone pink). But the thing is - he needs the others (North Carolina/ Florida/ Ohio/ Iowa), none of which are gimmees.

If Obama is campaigning in PA then they obviously don't think it's safe.

Is there any metric other than polling that would suggest this will be Hillary's year?

Demographics; low unemployment; Obama approval rate over 50℅; 2015 the biggest increase in median wage ever; lowest ever uninsured rate... Take your pick?

FrancisUrquhart said:

oxfordsimon said:

foxinsoxuk said:

oxfordsimon said:

Paristonda said:

Owen Smith says Corbyn should have been given more time before being challenged. He didn't want to challenege, but once Eagle started it he felt he had to throw his name in. Which, if it was really the case, he could have pulled out after getting the nominations of course.

Sounds more like he's basically trying to set the way to submit to the Corbynistas after defeat, give a reason for moderates to back Corbyn, play nice and hope for no deselections.

To me this says a split much less likely, and the PLP has chosen the proverbial shut up as its next steps.

The man is utterly pointless.

He has no political skills, no presentational skills, nothing to offer.

Angela Eagle would have been better, for all her faults.

I am not sure on that. Her only appeal seemed to be that she was a woman. "Look at me, I have a pink logo" - that is not enough to get people to vote for you.

Plus the disaster of her launch press conference where no serious political journalists bothered to stay to the end says all you need to know about her prospects.

More correctly when asked by Red John on R5, because I am a working class northern gay woman...and?...I am a working class northern gay woman, so I know what it is like for real people.

Just because she had a working class background, she doesn't have the right to claim to be working class now. No Oxford PPE graduate who ends up working for the CBI can really claim to be working class.

Identity politics - that is what is really toxic

weejonnie said:

Obama has just accused anyone of voting against Clinton as being Sexist - you can't make it up! All the non-verbals coming out from the parties suggest that the Democrats are slightly concerned that the trend in the opinion polls is developing not necessarily to their advantage.

The Democrats may want to ask BSE about the effectiveness of such a style.

oxfordsimon said:

HYUFD said:

foxinsoxuk said:

oxfordsimon said:

Paristonda said:

Owen Smith says Corbyn should have been given more time before being challenged. He didn't want to challenege, but once Eagle started it he felt he had to throw his name in. Which, if it was really the case, he could have pulled out after getting the nominations of course.

Sounds more like he's basically trying to set the way to submit to the Corbynistas after defeat, give a reason for moderates to back Corbyn, play nice and hope for no deselections.

To me this says a split much less likely, and the PLP has chosen the proverbial shut up as its next steps.

The man is utterly pointless.

He has no political skills, no presentational skills, nothing to offer.

Angela Eagle would have been better, for all her faults.

Backing the Iraq War though would have killed her too

It is amazing that agreeing with official party policy can be so toxic.

It was Blairite policy though, so to most current Labour members that is basically Tory policy.

Essentially after next Saturday unless Labour MPs are willing to get behind John McDonnell as an alternative they are stuck with Corbyn until the next general election, almost certainly in 2020

IanB2 said:

rottenborough said:

oxfordsimon said:

foxinsoxuk said:

oxfordsimon said:

Paristonda said:

Owen Smith says Corbyn should have been given more time before being challenged. He didn't want to challenege, but once Eagle started it he felt he had to throw his name in. Which, if it was really the case, he could have pulled out after getting the nominations of course.

Sounds more like he's basically trying to set the way to submit to the Corbynistas after defeat, give a reason for moderates to back Corbyn, play nice and hope for no deselections.

To me this says a split much less likely, and the PLP has chosen the proverbial shut up as its next steps.

The man is utterly pointless.

He has no political skills, no presentational skills, nothing to offer.

Angela Eagle would have been better, for all her faults.

I am not sure on that. Her only appeal seemed to be that she was a woman. "Look at me, I have a pink logo" - that is not enough to get people to vote for you.

Plus the disaster of her launch press conference where no serious political journalists bothered to stay to the end says all you need to know about her prospects.

Seriously? Owen Smith now saying it was the wrong time to challenge? What a joke. Labour just get funnier by the minute.

You do wonder whether anyone had thought through the forward scenarios when they were carefully mapping out and timetabling the hourly shadow cabinet resignations, so many months ago? No-one in the Labour Party this summer has demonstrated any capability to be trusted to run anything.

Agreed. Brown, Blair, Mandelson - may have been control freaks, but you can see why.

Polish Brexit supporter admits stealing Eddie Izzard's pink beret during pro-EU rally https://t.co/uJBsoAHC6J

— Evening Standard (@standardnews) September 19, 2016

oxfordsimon said:

HYUFD said:

foxinsoxuk said:

oxfordsimon said:

Paristonda said:

Owen Smith says Corbyn should have been given more time before being challenged. He didn't want to challenege, but once Eagle started it he felt he had to throw his name in. Which, if it was really the case, he could have pulled out after getting the nominations of course.

Sounds more like he's basically trying to set the way to submit to the Corbynistas after defeat, give a reason for moderates to back Corbyn, play nice and hope for no deselections.

To me this says a split much less likely, and the PLP has chosen the proverbial shut up as its next steps.

The man is utterly pointless.

He has no political skills, no presentational skills, nothing to offer.

Angela Eagle would have been better, for all her faults.

Backing the Iraq War though would have killed her too

It is amazing that agreeing with official party policy can be so toxic.

...and most of the new members who are Corbynista would have been about 5 or 6 when the vote was taken. It's history to them surely?

IanB2 said:

rottenborough said:

oxfordsimon said:

foxinsoxuk said:

oxfordsimon said:

Paristonda said:

Owen Smith says Corbyn should have been given more time before being challenged. He didn't want to challenege, but once Eagle started it he felt he had to throw his name in. Which, if it was really the case, he could have pulled out after getting the nominations of course.

Sounds more like he's basically trying to set the way to submit to the Corbynistas after defeat, give a reason for moderates to back Corbyn, play nice and hope for no deselections.

To me this says a split much less likely, and the PLP has chosen the proverbial shut up as its next steps.

The man is utterly pointless.

He has no political skills, no presentational skills, nothing to offer.

Angela Eagle would have been better, for all her faults.

I am not sure on that. Her only appeal seemed to be that she was a woman. "Look at me, I have a pink logo" - that is not enough to get people to vote for you.

Plus the disaster of her launch press conference where no serious political journalists bothered to stay to the end says all you need to know about her prospects.

Seriously? Owen Smith now saying it was the wrong time to challenge? What a joke. Labour just get funnier by the minute.

You do wonder whether anyone had thought through the forward scenarios when they were carefully mapping out and timetabling the hourly shadow cabinet resignations, so many months ago? No-one in the Labour Party this summer has demonstrated any capability to be trusted to run anything.

I think they thought that mass resignations followed by a vote of no confidence would have resulted in the resignation of the leadership. In any other world, that is probably what would have happened. But in Corbyn-land, the real world doesn't exist - just the size of his mandate and the creeping violence of Momentum.

https://twitter.com/AndreaParma82/status/777909493770444800

oxfordsimon said:

IanB2 said:

rottenborough said:

oxfordsimon said:

foxinsoxuk said:

oxfordsimon said:

Paristonda said:

Owen Smith says Corbyn should have been given more time before being challenged. He didn't want to challenege, but once Eagle started it he felt he had to throw his name in. Which, if it was really the case, he could have pulled out after getting the nominations of course.

Sounds more like he's basically trying to set the way to submit to the Corbynistas after defeat, give a reason for moderates to back Corbyn, play nice and hope for no deselections.

To me this says a split much less likely, and the PLP has chosen the proverbial shut up as its next steps.

The man is utterly pointless.

He has no political skills, no presentational skills, nothing to offer.

Angela Eagle would have been better, for all her faults.

I am not sure on that. Her only appeal seemed to be that she was a woman. "Look at me, I have a pink logo" - that is not enough to get people to vote for you.

Plus the disaster of her launch press conference where no serious political journalists bothered to stay to the end says all you need to know about her prospects.

Seriously? Owen Smith now saying it was the wrong time to challenge? What a joke. Labour just get funnier by the minute.

You do wonder whether anyone had thought through the forward scenarios when they were carefully mapping out and timetabling the hourly shadow cabinet resignations, so many months ago? No-one in the Labour Party this summer has demonstrated any capability to be trusted to run anything.

I think they thought that mass resignations followed by a vote of no confidence would have resulted in the resignation of the leadership. In any other world, that is probably what would have happened. But in Corbyn-land, the real world doesn't exist - just the size of his mandate and the creeping violence of Momentum.

Fine, but the real world of government is more complicated still. Do we really want more policy decisions of the type where no-one has bothered to have a think about what unexpected snags might lie ahead?

oxfordsimon said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

oxfordsimon said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

oxfordsimon said:

foxinsoxuk said:

oxfordsimon said:

Paristonda said:

Owen Smith says Corbyn should have been given more time before being challenged. He didn't want to challenege, but once Eagle started it he felt he had to throw his name in. Which, if it was really the case, he could have pulled out after getting the nominations of course.

Sounds more like he's basically trying to set the way to submit to the Corbynistas after defeat, give a reason for moderates to back Corbyn, play nice and hope for no deselections.

To me this says a split much less likely, and the PLP has chosen the proverbial shut up as its next steps.

The man is utterly pointless.

He has no political skills, no presentational skills, nothing to offer.

Angela Eagle would have been better, for all her faults.

I am not sure on that. Her only appeal seemed to be that she was a woman. "Look at me, I have a pink logo" - that is not enough to get people to vote for you.

Plus the disaster of her launch press conference where no serious political journalists bothered to stay to the end says all you need to know about her prospects.

More correctly when asked by Red John on R5, because I am a working class northern gay woman...and?...I am a working class northern gay woman, so I know what it is like for real people.

Just because she had a working class background, she doesn't have the right to claim to be working class now. No Oxford PPE graduate who ends up working for the CBI can really claim to be working class.

Identity politics - that is what is really toxic

What a sexist, homophobic, elitist comment...you fascist like Germaine Greer....or something like that ;-)

Yeah. Me and Germaine - best buds!

Remember if you aren't a hard left Trot Tots supporter, we are all Tories now...

FrancisUrquhart said:

oxfordsimon said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

oxfordsimon said:

foxinsoxuk said:

oxfordsimon said:

Paristonda said:

Owen Smith says Corbyn should have been given more time before being challenged. He didn't want to challenege, but once Eagle started it he felt he had to throw his name in. Which, if it was really the case, he could have pulled out after getting the nominations of course.

Sounds more like he's basically trying to set the way to submit to the Corbynistas after defeat, give a reason for moderates to back Corbyn, play nice and hope for no deselections.

To me this says a split much less likely, and the PLP has chosen the proverbial shut up as its next steps.

The man is utterly pointless.

He has no political skills, no presentational skills, nothing to offer.

Angela Eagle would have been better, for all her faults.

I am not sure on that. Her only appeal seemed to be that she was a woman. "Look at me, I have a pink logo" - that is not enough to get people to vote for you.

Plus the disaster of her launch press conference where no serious political journalists bothered to stay to the end says all you need to know about her prospects.

More correctly when asked by Red John on R5, because I am a working class northern gay woman...and?...I am a working class northern gay woman, so I know what it is like for real people.

Just because she had a working class background, she doesn't have the right to claim to be working class now. No Oxford PPE graduate who ends up working for the CBI can really claim to be working class.

Identity politics - that is what is really toxic

What a sexist, homophobic, elitist comment...you fascist like Germaine Greer....or something like that ;-)

Sounds like a candidate for Hillary's basket of deplorables.....

The other problem Labour have with Owen Smith's run, is that it appears to confirm that there is not actually a policy split, other than Trident. He agreed with Corbyn on most things iirc.

Not that the public are giving it any notice whatsoever, but in theory the Labour policy platform is clear: well to the left of the average voter.

Sandpit said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Clinton press conference going nuclear on Trump, saying that he is encouraging terrorists, that his comments are being used for recruiting terrorists online....

Campaign getting very nasty.

The moderators in the debates are going to have their hands full.

Was always going to be so. Compare the number of policies from each candidate, with the number of personal comments against their opponent.

It's the weirdest campaign I can recall.

On one side you have someone who as a politician has no talent or skills at all, does not relate to her crowds, and is viewed as both dishonest and untrustworthy. 3/4 of the county think the country is headed in the wrong direction, and she makes no bones about the fact that she'll continue those policies. Her campaign is based almost entirely on claiming her opponent is unfit to be POTUS, to the extent that on the stump she now says she has 38 position papers on her website, and then lays right into Trump.

On the other side you have a self-made man who admires his creator, who is not a politician and doesn't want to be one. He likes to speak without a teleprompter, and gets off message and into trouble. But he is good with crowds and comes across well on TV, which he does A LOT. He'll talk with anyone on TV. Now he has an effective wrangler in Kellyanne Conway, he seems to be becoming more disciplined. He at least does discuss policies a bit, before laying into Hillary.

As I had it explained to me last week by - of all things - a Democrat:

You have 2 candidates, both of which are disliked. One represents the status quo, the other represents major change. As most people don't like the way the country's going, in the absence of any other factors, many will vote for change.

This from a Democrat high up in the Georgia party. Georgia - a state which has been solidly Republican - is now in play. I asked why he sounded less than confident about Hillary and he just smiled and shrugged resignedly. He thinks the 'basket of deplorables' speech was a major error for Hillary.

HurstLlama said:

Bankers are noble citizens compared to the thieving toerags who run insurance companies.

*ahem*

FrancisUrquhart said:

oxfordsimon said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

oxfordsimon said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

oxfordsimon said:

foxinsoxuk said:

oxfordsimon said:

Paristonda said:

Owen Smith says Corbyn should have been given more time before being challenged. He didn't want to challenege, but once Eagle started it he felt he had to throw his name in. Which, if it was really the case, he could have pulled out after getting the nominations of course.

Sounds more like he's basically trying to set the way to submit to the Corbynistas after defeat, give a reason for moderates to back Corbyn, play nice and hope for no deselections.

To me this says a split much less likely, and the PLP has chosen the proverbial shut up as its next steps.

The man is utterly pointless.

He has no political skills, no presentational skills, nothing to offer.

Angela Eagle would have been better, for all her faults.

I am not sure on that. Her only appeal seemed to be that she was a woman. "Look at me, I have a pink logo" - that is not enough to get people to vote for you.

Plus the disaster of her launch press conference where no serious political journalists bothered to stay to the end says all you need to know about her prospects.

More correctly when asked by Red John on R5, because I am a working class northern gay woman...and?...I am a working class northern gay woman, so I know what it is like for real people.

Just because she had a working class background, she doesn't have the right to claim to be working class now. No Oxford PPE graduate who ends up working for the CBI can really claim to be working class.

Identity politics - that is what is really toxic

What a sexist, homophobic, elitist comment...you fascist like Germaine Greer....or something like that ;-)

Yeah. Me and Germaine - best buds!

Remember if you aren't a hard left Trot Tots supporter, we are all Tories now...

Well I will defend Greer's right to talk freely on our university campuses, so I must be a fascist. Which is such a perverted way of viewing the world.

As I say, identity politics are toxic.

MTimT said:

HurstLlama said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Tim_B said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Suspect been shot and injured and being taken away in an ambulance. Police also been shot.

Hope his medical insurance is up to date....

Doesn't matter - if you present at ER they have to treat you regardless of insurance. One reason the ER is such an expense to hospitals.

I know...it was a joke.

There is actually a lot of misunderstanding this side of the Atlantic on how the US system actually works. I think a large percentage of British public think that they wouldn't see you at ER without them first swiping your credit card.

Well, I for one don't understand the US Health system. A friend of mine, a Brit, was taken ill was on holiday in Texas. She was whipped into the local A&E, diagnosed had surgery, a short recovery period (no more/less than she needed), all round spiffing treatment and was given a bill in exchange for which she gave her holiday insurance details and that was that. Except weeks after she got a letter from the hospital saying the insurance company were refusing to pay up, she filed the letter in File 13 and never heard another word from anyone.

On the other hand one of my gaming partners and a US citizen was a few months ago diagnosed with a cancer, surgery seems to have sorted it, but none of the follow up treatment/drugs that one would expect from the NHS, as when my wife had her cancer. His life savings are now gone and he is having to hand over a significant chunk of his pension every month, probably for the rest of his life, to settle the debt because of some small print clause in his health insurance.

I'll moan about the NHS with the best of them and, God knows, I have had good reason to do so, but I think I prefer it to being in the hands of the modern insurance industry. Bankers are noble citizens compared to the thieving toerags who run insurance companies.

My guess is that your gaming friend received his treatment 'out of network'. When you do that, your co-pay is increased (depends on the policy) and there is no absolute cap on your responsibilities.

When my wife was diagnosed with cancer, we made sure all her providers were 'in-network' so her absolute cap is $2500. Which is just as well, as the chemo drugs came to around $20,000 per session.

Hope she's doing well!

The network is one of Obamacare's problems - the Obamacare network is very small compared to 'regular' insurance. The reason is Obamacare reimbursements are very low.

rottenborough said:

Tim_B said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

oxfordsimon said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

oxfordsimon said:

foxinsoxuk said:

oxfordsimon said:

Paristonda said:

Owen Smith says Corbyn should have been given more time before being challenged. He didn't want to challenege, but once Eagle started it he felt he had to throw his name in. Which, if it was really the case, he could have pulled out after getting the nominations of course.

Sounds more like he's basically trying to set the way to submit to the Corbynistas after defeat, give a reason for moderates to back Corbyn, play nice and hope for no deselections.

To me this says a split much less likely, and the PLP has chosen the proverbial shut up as its next steps.

The man is utterly pointless.

He has no political skills, no presentational skills, nothing to offer.

Angela Eagle would have been better, for all her faults.

I am not sure on that. Her only appeal seemed to be that she was a woman. "Look at me, I have a pink logo" - that is not enough to get people to vote for you.

Plus the disaster of her launch press conference where no serious political journalists bothered to stay to the end says all you need to know about her prospects.

More correctly when asked by Red John on R5, because I am a working class northern gay woman...and?...I am a working class northern gay woman, so I know what it is like for real people.

Just because she had a working class background, she doesn't have the right to claim to be working class now. No Oxford PPE graduate who ends up working for the CBI can really claim to be working class.

Identity politics - that is what is really toxic

What a sexist, homophobic, elitist comment...you fascist like Germaine Greer....or something like that ;-)

Sounds like a candidate for Hillary's basket of deplorables.....

...a word that isn't even English btw. As in 'deplorable' is an adjective and it does not have 'basket' as its collective noun.

Though it may do by time next OED comes out of HRC wins.

What is the collective noun? "A PB Tory of deplorables"?

Tim_B said:

MTimT said:

HurstLlama said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Tim_B said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Suspect been shot and injured and being taken away in an ambulance. Police also been shot.

Hope his medical insurance is up to date....

Doesn't matter - if you present at ER they have to treat you regardless of insurance. One reason the ER is such an expense to hospitals.

I know...it was a joke.

There is actually a lot of misunderstanding this side of the Atlantic on how the US system actually works. I think a large percentage of British public think that they wouldn't see you at ER without them first swiping your credit card.

Well, I for one don't understand the US Health system. A friend of mine, a Brit, was taken ill was on holiday in Texas. She was whipped into the local A&E, diagnosed had surgery, a short recovery period (no more/less than she needed), all round spiffing treatment and was given a bill in exchange for which she gave her holiday insurance details and that was that. Except weeks after she got a letter from the hospital saying the insurance company were refusing to pay up, she filed the letter in File 13 and never heard another word from anyone.

On the other hand one of my gaming partners and a US citizen was a few months ago diagnosed with a cancer, surgery seems to have sorted it, but none of the follow up treatment/drugs that one would expect from the NHS, as when my wife had her cancer. His life savings are now gone and he is having to hand over a significant chunk of his pension every month, probably for the rest of his life, to settle the debt because of some small print clause in his health insurance.

I'll moan about the NHS with the best of them and, God knows, I have had good reason to do so, but I think I prefer it to being in the hands of the modern insurance industry. Bankers are noble citizens compared to the thieving toerags who run insurance companies.

My guess is that your gaming friend received his treatment 'out of network'. When you do that, your co-pay is increased (depends on the policy) and there is no absolute cap on your responsibilities.

When my wife was diagnosed with cancer, we made sure all her providers were 'in-network' so her absolute cap is $2500. Which is just as well, as the chemo drugs came to around $20,000 per session.

Hope she's doing well!

The network is one of Obamacare's problems - the Obamacare network is very small compared to 'regular' insurance. The reason is Obamacare reimbursements are very low.

Thanks. Chemo is done, last radiation therapy tomorrow, PET scan clear for the moment. Fingers crossed.

williamglenn said:

rottenborough said:

oxfordsimon said:

foxinsoxuk said:

oxfordsimon said:

Paristonda said:

Owen Smith says Corbyn should have been given more time before being challenged. He didn't want to challenege, but once Eagle started it he felt he had to throw his name in. Which, if it was really the case, he could have pulled out after getting the nominations of course.

Sounds more like he's basically trying to set the way to submit to the Corbynistas after defeat, give a reason for moderates to back Corbyn, play nice and hope for no deselections.

To me this says a split much less likely, and the PLP has chosen the proverbial shut up as its next steps.

The man is utterly pointless.

He has no political skills, no presentational skills, nothing to offer.

Angela Eagle would have been better, for all her faults.

I am not sure on that. Her only appeal seemed to be that she was a woman. "Look at me, I have a pink logo" - that is not enough to get people to vote for you.

Plus the disaster of her launch press conference where no serious political journalists bothered to stay to the end says all you need to know about her prospects.

Seriously? Owen Smith now saying it was the wrong time to challenge? What a joke. Labour just get funnier by the minute.

Did he explain why Eagle's candidacy meant he was forced to stand?

"I mean, if I'd done nothing we might have ended up with a woman leader! How ridiculous would that be?"

Certainly wouldn't happen down at the Rugby club would it Owen?

RobD said:

rottenborough said:

Tim_B said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

oxfordsimon said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

oxfordsimon said:

foxinsoxuk said:

oxfordsimon said:

Paristonda said:

Owen Smith says Corbyn should have been given more time before being challenged. He didn't want to challenege, but once Eagle started it he felt he had to throw his name in. Which, if it was really the case, he could have pulled out after getting the nominations of course.

Sounds more like he's basically trying to set the way to submit to the Corbynistas after defeat, give a reason for moderates to back Corbyn, play nice and hope for no deselections.

To me this says a split much less likely, and the PLP has chosen the proverbial shut up as its next steps.

The man is utterly pointless.

He has no political skills, no presentational skills, nothing to offer.

Angela Eagle would have been better, for all her faults.

I am not sure on that. Her only appeal seemed to be that she was a woman. "Look at me, I have a pink logo" - that is not enough to get people to vote for you.

Plus the disaster of her launch press conference where no serious political journalists bothered to stay to the end says all you need to know about her prospects.

More correctly when asked by Red John on R5, because I am a working class northern gay woman...and?...I am a working class northern gay woman, so I know what it is like for real people.

Just because she had a working class background, she doesn't have the right to claim to be working class now. No Oxford PPE graduate who ends up working for the CBI can really claim to be working class.

Identity politics - that is what is really toxic

What a sexist, homophobic, elitist comment...you fascist like Germaine Greer....or something like that ;-)

Sounds like a candidate for Hillary's basket of deplorables.....

...a word that isn't even English btw. As in 'deplorable' is an adjective and it does not have 'basket' as its collective noun.

Though it may do by time next OED comes out of HRC wins.

What is the collective noun? "A PB Tory of deplorables"?

That looked wrong to me, then I realised it should be the other way around. 'A deplorability of PB Tories'. Surely?

oxfordsimon said:

But in Corbyn-land, the real world doesn't exist - just the size of his mandate

these euphemisms are becoming more and more convoluted

IanB2 said:

RobD said:

rottenborough said:

Tim_B said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

oxfordsimon said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

oxfordsimon said:

foxinsoxuk said:

oxfordsimon said:

Paristonda said:

Owen Smith says Corbyn should have been given more time before being challenged. He didn't want to challenege, but once Eagle started it he felt he had to throw his name in. Which, if it was really the case, he could have pulled out after getting the nominations of course.

Sounds more like he's basically trying to set the way to submit to the Corbynistas after defeat, give a reason for moderates to back Corbyn, play nice and hope for no deselections.

To me this says a split much less likely, and the PLP has chosen the proverbial shut up as its next steps.

The man is utterly pointless.

He has no political skills, no presentational skills, nothing to offer.

Angela Eagle would have been better, for all her faults.

I am not sure on that. Her only appeal seemed to be that she was a woman. "Look at me, I have a pink logo" - that is not enough to get people to vote for you.

Plus the disaster of her launch press conference where no serious political journalists bothered to stay to the end says all you need to know about her prospects.

More correctly when asked by Red John on R5, because I am a working class northern gay woman...and?...I am a working class northern gay woman, so I know what it is like for real people.

Just because she had a working class background, she doesn't have the right to claim to be working class now. No Oxford PPE graduate who ends up working for the CBI can really claim to be working class.

Identity politics - that is what is really toxic

What a sexist, homophobic, elitist comment...you fascist like Germaine Greer....or something like that ;-)

Sounds like a candidate for Hillary's basket of deplorables.....

...a word that isn't even English btw. As in 'deplorable' is an adjective and it does not have 'basket' as its collective noun.

Though it may do by time next OED comes out of HRC wins.

What is the collective noun? "A PB Tory of deplorables"?

That looked wrong to me, then I realised it should be the other way around. 'A deplorability of PB Tories'. Surely?

Quite right!

MTimT said:

HurstLlama said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Tim_B said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Suspect been shot and injured and being taken away in an ambulance. Police also been shot.

Hope his medical insurance is up to date....

Doesn't matter - if you present at ER they have to treat you regardless of insurance. One reason the ER is such an expense to hospitals.

I know...it was a joke.

There is actually a lot of misunderstanding this side of the Atlantic on how the US system actually works. I think a large percentage of British public think that they wouldn't see you at ER without them first swiping your credit card.

Well, I for one don't understand the US Health system. A friend of mine, a Brit, was taken ill was on holiday in Texas. She was whipped into the local A&E, diagnosed had surgery, a short recovery period (no more/less than she needed), all round spiffing treatment and was given a bill in exchange for which she gave her holiday insurance details and that was that. Except weeks after she got a letter from the hospital saying the insurance company were refusing to pay up, she filed the letter in File 13 and never heard another word from anyone.

On the other hand one of my gaming partners and a US citizen was a few months ago diagnosed with a cancer, surgery seems to have sorted it, but none of the follow up treatment/drugs that one would expect from the NHS, as when my wife had her cancer. His life savings are now gone and he is having to hand over a significant chunk of his pension every month, probably for the rest of his life, to settle the debt because of some small print clause in his health insurance.

I'll moan about the NHS with the best of them and, God knows, I have had good reason to do so, but I think I prefer it to being in the hands of the modern insurance industry. Bankers are noble citizens compared to the thieving toerags who run insurance companies.

My guess is that your gaming friend received his treatment 'out of network'. When you do that, your co-pay is increased (depends on the policy) and there is no absolute cap on your responsibilities.

When my wife was diagnosed with cancer, we made sure all her providers were 'in-network' so her absolute cap is $2500. Which is just as well, as the chemo drugs came to around $20,000 per session.

Thanks for that Mr. T.. I have absolutely no idea what "in-network" means. However, if it is the difference between, to use your example, a maximum bill of $2,500 and an unlimited bill then I think something is very wrong.

Charles said:

HurstLlama said:

Bankers are noble citizens compared to the thieving toerags who run insurance companies.

*ahem*

Sorry, Mr. Charles. I didn't know you or your family were in the insurance business.

RobD said:

IanB2 said:

RobD said:

rottenborough said:

Tim_B said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

oxfordsimon said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

oxfordsimon said:

foxinsoxuk said:

oxfordsimon said:

Paristonda said:

Owen Smith says Corbyn should have been given more time before being challenged. He didn't want to challenege, but once Eagle started it he felt he had to throw his name in. Which, if it was really the case, he could have pulled out after getting the nominations of course.

Sounds more like he's basically trying to set the way to submit to the Corbynistas after defeat, give a reason for moderates to back Corbyn, play nice and hope for no deselections.

To me this says a split much less likely, and the PLP has chosen the proverbial shut up as its next steps.

The man is utterly pointless.

He has no political skills, no presentational skills, nothing to offer.

Angela Eagle would have been better, for all her faults.

I am not sure on that. Her only appeal seemed to be that she was a woman. "Look at me, I have a pink logo" - that is not enough to get people to vote for you.

Plus the disaster of her launch press conference where no serious political journalists bothered to stay to the end says all you need to know about her prospects.

More correctly when asked by Red John on R5, because I am a working class northern gay woman...and?...I am a working class northern gay woman, so I know what it is like for real people.

Just because she had a working class background, she doesn't have the right to claim to be working class now. No Oxford PPE graduate who ends up working for the CBI can really claim to be working class.

Identity politics - that is what is really toxic

What a sexist, homophobic, elitist comment...you fascist like Germaine Greer....or something like that ;-)

Sounds like a candidate for Hillary's basket of deplorables.....

...a word that isn't even English btw. As in 'deplorable' is an adjective and it does not have 'basket' as its collective noun.

Though it may do by time next OED comes out of HRC wins.

What is the collective noun? "A PB Tory of deplorables"?

That looked wrong to me, then I realised it should be the other way around. 'A deplorability of PB Tories'. Surely?

Quite right!

a cesspit of deplorables sounds right to me.

Animal_pb said:

MTimT said:

HurstLlama said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Tim_B said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Suspect been shot and injured and being taken away in an ambulance. Police also been shot.

Hope his medical insurance is up to date....

Doesn't matter - if you present at ER they have to treat you regardless of insurance. One reason the ER is such an expense to hospitals.

I know...it was a joke.

There is actually a lot of misunderstanding this side of the Atlantic on how the US system actually works. I think a large percentage of British public think that they wouldn't see you at ER without them first swiping your credit card.

On the other hand one of my gaming partners and a US citizen was a few months ago diagnosed with a cancer, surgery seems to have sorted it, but none of the follow up treatment/drugs that one would expect from the NHS, as when my wife had her cancer. His life savings are now gone and he is having to hand over a significant chunk of his pension every month, probably for the rest of his life, to settle the debt because of some small print clause in his health insurance.

I'll moan about the NHS with the best of them and, God knows, I have had good reason to do so, but I think I prefer it to being in the hands of the modern insurance industry. Bankers are noble citizens compared to the thieving toerags who run insurance companies.

My guess is that your gaming friend received his treatment 'out of network'. When you do that, your co-pay is increased (depends on the policy) and there is no absolute cap on your responsibilities.

When my wife was diagnosed with cancer, we made sure all her providers were 'in-network' so her absolute cap is $2500. Which is just as well, as the chemo drugs came to around $20,000 per session.

The health insurance sector is a little different, though. You find a few bad apples scattered around the other insurance segments, but the health insurance industry seems to be built around denial/challenge of claims as part of its core business model. Much as I think there are things to improve about the NHS, it does seem a better option (and, if you want to be coldly rational about it, you can point at the reduced personal uncertainty re: health spending encouraging higher marginal rates of consumption in the populace, ergo militating towards higher overall economic growth rates).

I have lived here for over 35 years and no member of my family has ever had a claim denied or challenged. The whole 'denying claims as a business model' thing is nonsense. It's a competitive landscape.

FrancisUrquhart said:

MTimT said:

williamglenn said:

MTimT said:

David_Evershed said:

BannedInParis said:

UkUncut.

Well, that's spelt wrong for a start.

.....spelt wrongly......

Who is Spelt and why is (s)he wrong?

It's like quinoa.

Or more like faro? Thanks to the wife, we have all three in the cupboard (collecting dust).

Or polenta.....

Polenta is dust, or almost.

rottenborough said:

a cesspit of deplorables sounds right to me.

Or a 'cispit' (play on cisgender etc)?

HurstLlama said:

Charles said:

HurstLlama said:

Bankers are noble citizens compared to the thieving toerags who run insurance companies.

*ahem*

Sorry, Mr. Charles. I didn't know you or your family were in the insurance business.

What else would you call lending money to people who don't need it?

Gasgoigne. Presumably the case hinged on whether the comments were abusive (which is an offence) or just insulting (which isnt since 2014).

Judging by the Beaks sentencing remarks, I dont think he would have got far pleading not guilty so faced the choice of changing his plea to guilty and paying the fine (as he did) or challenging it in the higher courts with the prospect tbe CPS would appeal to the supreme court if he won in the appeal court, which would cost him a fortune.