politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » If Corbyn wants to win the confidence of Labour MPs he need
Comments
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Perhaps if the West and the UK had kept its feckin nose out of the Arab Spring nonsense rather than taking sides Syria might still be a Nice Place.FF43 said:
They need to sort it out themselves. That is not callous indifference. Only they can solve their own problems. What international third parties CAN do is to support those that are trying to make a positive difference. That places like Syria don't have to be like this. The key here, I think, is Egypt. It's the largest and most influential Arab state. We should be on the side of those that push for democracy, liberalism and prosperity rather than thinking we are more comfortable with a strongman like Sissi. If Egypt is a good example of a country that works, I am sure others will follow. The West's unconditional support for Israel is a problem, although I accept it is a complicated problem. And then there is our indifference to Russia, who for the record are indiscriminately killing far more Syrian civilians as agents of that government than ISIS does on the streets of Europe.TOPPING said:
@Cyclefree
Whatever the worries about Brexit, the economy etc, we are really very fortunate.
Unless you are in Syria.
It really is intolerable that such a situation should be allowed to persist; perhaps another legacy of Iraq. Which power is going to commit hundreds of thousands of troops to make and then maintain peace anywhere these days?
Incidentally, I knew Syria somewhat and have good friends who live there. Despite the hideous government, it used to be a NICE place.
As for Egypt, when they were given a choice the Egyptians elected the Muslim Brotherhood. Whose first action was to start demolishing democracy. In fact regardless of the actions of the "strong men", Egypt has been moving away from liberalism for long time; Christians, secular people who once could flourish there are now openly persecuted and not by the government.
I don't think you ideas hold.0 -
Syria under Assad was a "Nice Place" was it? Interesting theory ...HurstLlama said:
Perhaps if the West and the UK had kept its feckin nose out of the Arab Spring nonsense rather than taking sides Syria might still be a Nice Place.FF43 said:
They need to sort it out themselves. That is not callous indifference. Only they can solve their own problems. What international third parties CAN do is to support those that are trying to make a positive difference. That places like Syria don't have to be like this. The key here, I think, is Egypt. It's the largest and most influential Arab state. We should be on the side of those that push for democracy, liberalism and prosperity rather than thinking we are more comfortable with a strongman like Sissi. If Egypt is a good example of a country that works, I am sure others will follow. The West's unconditional support for Israel is a problem, although I accept it is a complicated problem. And then there is our indifference to Russia, who for the record are indiscriminately killing far more Syrian civilians as agents of that government than ISIS does on the streets of Europe.TOPPING said:
@Cyclefree
Whatever the worries about Brexit, the economy etc, we are really very fortunate.
Unless you are in Syria.
It really is intolerable that such a situation should be allowed to persist; perhaps another legacy of Iraq. Which power is going to commit hundreds of thousands of troops to make and then maintain peace anywhere these days?
Incidentally, I knew Syria somewhat and have good friends who live there. Despite the hideous government, it used to be a NICE place.
As for Egypt, when they were given a choice the Egyptians elected the Muslim Brotherhood. Whose first action was to start demolishing democracy. In fact regardless of the actions of the "strong men", Egypt has been moving away from liberalism for long time; Christians, secular people who once could flourish there are now openly persecuted and not by the government.
I don't think you ideas hold.0 -
I suspect that today's PMQ session marks the beginning of the end of May's honeymoon - though it may take longer to feed into the polls.Corbyn's style would flop in an election campaign but to be honest I am not sure that May would do much better . She appeared a fair bit more vulnerable today. There is something missing.0
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For @John_M (who mentioned the Mark Forsyth book) - http://www.newyorker.com/humor/daily-shouts/write-sentence0
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I think it’s far too early to tell how good or bad the PM is. – I’ll give it a year, then judge.DanSmith said:May's not really all that as a politician is she? Very lucky to be up against a lightweight like Corbyn.
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Cornyn was awful as usual.
Who would trust such a man to be PM0 -
Angus Robertson asking a question about "respecting referendums"
Lol.0 -
Paul Mason tweets: Corbyn hammers May at PMQs over her opposition to making rented homes "fit for habitation". PLP silent. Mandatory reselection surely on way
Thought crime. Failure to appreciate the leader. Open & shut Case. Sentence first, Verdict Later!0 -
Looks like Owen Smith has been using Survation for his comfort testing.0
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What's noticeable is the difference in style between Mrs May and Mr Cameron. The former PM was much more polished and quick at thinking on his feet, but then he did do PMQs 30 times a year for over a decade.glw said:
She survived a long time at the Home Office, that alone suggests she is more capable than many seem to think.DanSmith said:May's not really all that as a politician is she? Very lucky to be up against a lightweight like Corbyn.
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I think the idea that the Arab world would embrace democracy and liberalism were it not for Israel/outside interference/IS/wicked Arab governments/etc is for the birds.HurstLlama said:
Perhaps if the West and the UK had kept its feckin nose out of the Arab Spring nonsense rather than taking sides Syria might still be a Nice Place.FF43 said:
They need to sort it out themselves. That is not callous indifference. Only they can solve their own problems. What international third parties CAN do is to support those that are trying to make a positive difference. That places like Syria don't have to be like this. The key here, I think, is Egypt. It's the largest and most influential Arab state. We should be on the side of those that push for democracy, liberalism and prosperity rather than thinking we are more comfortable with a strongman like Sissi. If Egypt is a good example of a country that works, I am sure others will follow. The West's unconditional support for Israel is a problem, although I accept it is a complicated problem. And then there is our indifference to Russia, who for the record are indiscriminately killing far more Syrian civilians as agents of that government than ISIS does on the streets of Europe.TOPPING said:
@Cyclefree
Whatever the worries about Brexit, the economy etc, we are really very fortunate.
Unless you are in Syria.
It really is intolerable that such a situation should be allowed to persist; perhaps another legacy of Iraq. Which power is going to commit hundreds of thousands of troops to make and then maintain peace anywhere these days?
Incidentally, I knew Syria somewhat and have good friends who live there. Despite the hideous government, it used to be a NICE place.
As for Egypt, when they were given a choice the Egyptians elected the Muslim Brotherhood. Whose first action was to start demolishing democracy. In fact regardless of the actions of the "strong men", Egypt has been moving away from liberalism for long time; Christians, secular people who once could flourish there are now openly persecuted and not by the government.
I don't think you ideas hold.
It took centuries for democracy and liberalism to develop in the West and its culture is very different to that in most of the Arab world. Democracy needs more than the mechanics to flourish. We may have to accept that there are peoples who do not want the political structures and political culture that we have.0 -
Sack the Smith campaign staffer who.shared the photo on Twitter - This is basic stuff #IdiotPlatoSaid said:0 -
May needs to stop trying to joke at PMQs. It just looks over-rehearsed and she can't deliver the punchlines effectively.0
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The Assad dictatorship was and is horrible, But as long as you stayed clear of his police Syria was generally a socially liberal, easy going country, albeit grossly inefficient thanks to the bureaucracy. Specifically it was the best country in that part of the world to be a Christian, and better than Turkey or Israel for examplePhilip_Thompson said:
Syria under Assad was a "Nice Place" was it? Interesting theory ...HurstLlama said:
Perhaps if the West and the UK had kept its feckin nose out of the Arab Spring nonsense rather than taking sides Syria might still be a Nice Place.FF43 said:
They need to sort it out themselves. That is not callous indifference. Only they can solve their own problems. What international third parties CAN do is to support those that are trying to make a positive difference. That places like Syria don't have to be like this. The key here, I think, is Egypt. It's the largest and most influential Arab state. We should be on the side of those that push for democracy, liberalism and prosperity rather than thinking we are more comfortable with a strongman like Sissi. If Egypt is a good example of a country that works, I am sure others will follow. The West's unconditional support for Israel is a problem, although I accept it is a complicated problem. And then there is our indifference to Russia, who for the record are indiscriminately killing far more Syrian civilians as agents of that government than ISIS does on the streets of Europe.TOPPING said:
@Cyclefree
Whatever the worries about Brexit, the economy etc, we are really very fortunate.
Unless you are in Syria.
It really is intolerable that such a situation should be allowed to persist; perhaps another legacy of Iraq. Which power is going to commit hundreds of thousands of troops to make and then maintain peace anywhere these days?
Incidentally, I knew Syria somewhat and have good friends who live there. Despite the hideous government, it used to be a NICE place.
As for Egypt, when they were given a choice the Egyptians elected the Muslim Brotherhood. Whose first action was to start demolishing democracy. In fact regardless of the actions of the "strong men", Egypt has been moving away from liberalism for long time; Christians, secular people who once could flourish there are now openly persecuted and not by the government.
I don't think you ideas hold.0 -
''I suspect that today's PMQ session marks the beginning of the end of May's honeymoon - though it may take longer to feed into the polls.''
Quite. It'll be a while before UKIP starts to pick up again...0 -
Cameron probably wouldn't have lasted six years in a difficult ministerial role. I personally don't much like May's point of view, but I think she is competent and will likely improve her performances at PMQs and in public. Labour supporters thinking they now have an easier opponent are likely to be disappointed.Sandpit said:
What's noticeable is the difference in style between Mrs May and Mr Cameron. The former PM was much more polished and quick at thinking on his feet, but then he did do PMQs 30 times a year for over a decade.glw said:
She survived a long time at the Home Office, that alone suggests she is more capable than many seem to think.DanSmith said:May's not really all that as a politician is she? Very lucky to be up against a lightweight like Corbyn.
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May's USP is that she is a female Gordon Brown.not_on_fire said:May needs to stop trying to joke at PMQs. It just looks over-rehearsed and she can't deliver the punchlines effectively.
Once she starts getting mocked however it will be all over for her.
It's probably a sign of Cameron's talent that he reduced the Labour and Liberal Democrats to a state where May can easily beat both of the oppositions.0 -
She's lucky in that she'll have time to grow into the PM role. As for HS, my impression is one of risk-aversion and perhaps hiding, Brown-like. That's harder to do as PM.glw said:
She survived a long time at the Home Office, that alone suggests she is more capable than many seem to think.DanSmith said:May's not really all that as a politician is she? Very lucky to be up against a lightweight like Corbyn.
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I wonder how long it will take for Trump supporters to appear on the news burning newspapers?0
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She's just keeping the seat warm for Priti Patel...DanSmith said:May's not really all that as a politician is she? Very lucky to be up against a lightweight like Corbyn.
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Nicer than it is now, for sure. In fact to the ordinary person, Syria had a relatively high amount of personal liberty and minorities had a solid amount of state protextion, especially in the context of the Middle East.Philip_Thompson said:
Syria under Assad was a "Nice Place" was it? Interesting theory ...HurstLlama said:
Perhaps if the West and the UK had kept its feckin nose out of the Arab Spring nonsense rather than taking sides Syria might still be a Nice Place.FF43 said:
They need to sort it out themselves. That is not callous indifference. Only they can solve their own problems. What international third parties CAN do is to support those that are trying to make a positive difference. That places like Syria don't have to be like this. The key here, I think, is Egypt. It's the largest and most influential Arab state. We should be on the side of those that push for democracy, liberalism and prosperity rather than thinking we are more comfortable with a strongman like Sissi. If Egypt is a good example of a country that works, I am sure others will follow. The West's unconditional support for Israel is a problem, although I accept it is a complicated problem. And then there is our indifference to Russia, who for the record are indiscriminately killing far more Syrian civilians as agents of that government than ISIS does on the streets of Europe.TOPPING said:
@Cyclefree
Whatever the worries about Brexit, the economy etc, we are really very fortunate.
Unless you are in Syria.
It really is intolerable that such a situation should be allowed to persist; perhaps another legacy of Iraq. Which power is going to commit hundreds of thousands of troops to make and then maintain peace anywhere these days?
Incidentally, I knew Syria somewhat and have good friends who live there. Despite the hideous government, it used to be a NICE place.
As for Egypt, when they were given a choice the Egyptians elected the Muslim Brotherhood. Whose first action was to start demolishing democracy. In fact regardless of the actions of the "strong men", Egypt has been moving away from liberalism for long time; Christians, secular people who once could flourish there are now openly persecuted and not by the government.
I don't think you ideas hold.0 -
... if ever.taffys said:''I suspect that today's PMQ session marks the beginning of the end of May's honeymoon - though it may take longer to feed into the polls.''
Quite. It'll be a while before UKIP starts to pick up again...0 -
It's a wall. Mexico, of course! They like paying for others to build walls.nunu said:
Who's gonna pay for it?SandyRentool said:BBC:
"Construction of a UK-funded wall near Calais' so-called Jungle migrant camp will begin very soon, a minister says.
Dubbed the "Great Wall of Calais" by some media, the 4m (13ft) wall will run for 1km (0.6 miles) along both sides of the main road to Calais port."
Why the F are we paying for it?
Crowd: The frogs! Crowd goes wild.0 -
Self awareness not a Nat strong suit.......see current arguments about 'damage to trade and jobs by leaving the (European) Union'.......when the UK accounts for four times Scotland's trade the EU does.....TGOHF said:Angus Robertson asking a question about "respecting referendums"
Lol.
Agree May's second outing not as good as her first, but lets not forget she got off an overnight 12 hour flight at 6am yesterday morning.....
She also needs to trim her jokes - and leave the 'zinger' until Corbyn's final question......
I think she's doing better on her G20 response.....0 -
Her jokes are over rehearsed, she needs to drop them, but would still massacre Corbyn.justin124 said:I suspect that today's PMQ session marks the beginning of the end of May's honeymoon - though it may take longer to feed into the polls.Corbyn's style would flop in an election campaign but to be honest I am not sure that May would do much better . She appeared a fair bit more vulnerable today. There is something missing.
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If only Andrea Leadsom was there eh?DanSmith said:May's not really all that as a politician is she? Very lucky to be up against a lightweight like Corbyn.
As Helmut Kohl observed 'I have profited mightily by being underestimated by others....'0 -
Thought May had the wrong teeth in today. Cameron had same problem on occasion.
Definitely fewer scripted jokes - not her forte0 -
I don't disagree with you on the means to end the war, but it's the Tony Blair Iraq War argument that "Doing nothing is not an option". If we can't sort the problem through military intervention we shouldn't do it. But there are things that we can do but are not doing to foster a benign environment that go beyond an absence of war, should the parties exhaust themselves and start looking for ways out. And there is no reason to give Russia carte blanche to make things drastically worse just to feed their zero sum diplomatic game.TOPPING said:
Civil wars end in one of two ways - one side wins, or there is a negotiated settlement. It has been argued that it is best for one side to win then they will have an overwhelming military mandate and peace will reign.
However, as we are aware, there are external actors in play in Syria preventing a decisive outcome. While this continues, there is no way that they can "sort it out themselves".
As for the other points you make, post-Soviet era Egypt has always tried to be pragmatic, especially towards and with Israel, whose latter relationship with the West I can't think is a particularly large motivating factor for IS.0 -
FF43, who says he knew it and has friends there thinks it was. I recall lots of travel information and documentaries (including, I think, from our own SeanT) none of which said any different.Philip_Thompson said:
Syria under Assad was a "Nice Place" was it? Interesting theory ...
It seems likely to me that as long as you were not interested in politics you could get on and live a nice life in a nice place, raise your kids and generally get on with doing your own thing and a achieve a reasonable level of prosperity. A bit like under the old regime in Portugal, of which I and my family had extensive experience.
Now Syria has turned into a shit holewith hundreds of thousands of deaths, millions of refugees and whole cities destroyed. I wonder if the people who were so adamant the Assad had to go (including our own SoS for the FCO at the time, that pillock Hague) Could have been shown the consequences of their actions just how many of them would have chosen a different path.0 -
Such high ambitions.TheScreamingEagles said:
Yup we are.Sandpit said:Ooh, Manchester are bidding for the 2025 World Expo?
But I see May didn't refute the claim the Labour MP was making on being not as committed to the northern powerhouse, what does she think is the alternative?0 -
It's worth remembering that normal, sane people take absolutely no notice of PMQs.
As an abnormal, not-sane person, I have to say after the glories of the Blair-Hague and Cameron-Blair days, this is like growing up on a diet of Joe Frazier vs Muhammed Ali and suddenly being forced to watch Mick McManus vs Jackie Pallo.0 -
I wasn't over-impressed with May's first outing at PMQs and she's not improved much. She's hesitant, stumbles over her words and her jokes fall flat. She may improve with practice.
But Jezza's an idiot, relies on a script and may never improve.0 -
The last one (not implemented) was a total dog's breakfast. It lumped bits of two separate towns in with each other to make up the numbers. As you suggest, a child with a wax crayon and a basic command of simple geography could do better within the space of a school day.Lucian_Fletcher said:Boundary Commission reports are fascinating. Especially when you realise you could do a better job in about five bloody minutes.
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Things will become easier for Mother Theresa when she actually has a "position" to defend Re. Brexit.
Clearly for the rest of this year, while everyone is just standing around and trying to work out what the hell is going on, things are going to be difficult.0 -
I half thought about a trip to Damascus before the shit hit the fan. It has the world's biggest restaurant! - Assad is undeniably a brutal dictator, but if you were Allawite, Christian or Atheist (And kept your head down politically) life was alright in Syria pre-war.MaxPB said:
Nicer than it is now, for sure. In fact to the ordinary person, Syria had a relatively high amount of personal liberty and minorities had a solid amount of state protextion, especially in the context of the Middle East.Philip_Thompson said:
Syria under Assad was a "Nice Place" was it? Interesting theory ...HurstLlama said:
Perhaps if the West and the UK had kept its feckin nose out of the Arab Spring nonsense rather than taking sides Syria might still be a Nice Place.FF43 said:
They need to sort it out themselves. That is not callous indifference. Only they can solve their own problems. What international third parties CAN do is to support those that are trying to make a positive difference. That places like Syria don't have to be like this. The key here, I think, is Egypt. It's the largest and most influential Arab state. We should be on the side of those that push for democracy, liberalism and prosperity rather than thinking we are more comfortable with a strongman like Sissi. If Egypt is a good example of a country that works, I am sure others will follow. The West's unconditional support for Israel is a problem, although I accept it is a complicated problem. And then there is our indifference to Russia, who for the record are indiscriminately killing far more Syrian civilians as agents of that government than ISIS does on the streets of Europe.TOPPING said:
@Cyclefree
Whatever the worries about Brexit, the economy etc, we are really very fortunate.
Unless you are in Syria.
It really is intolerable that such a situation should be allowed to persist; perhaps another legacy of Iraq. Which power is going to commit hundreds of thousands of troops to make and then maintain peace anywhere these days?
Incidentally, I knew Syria somewhat and have good friends who live there. Despite the hideous government, it used to be a NICE place.
As for Egypt, when they were given a choice the Egyptians elected the Muslim Brotherhood. Whose first action was to start demolishing democracy. In fact regardless of the actions of the "strong men", Egypt has been moving away from liberalism for long time; Christians, secular people who once could flourish there are now openly persecuted and not by the government.
I don't think you ideas hold.0 -
Who was the really boring goodie in the blue trunks that often appeared with McManus? St John something? He was beyond dull.John_M said:It's worth remembering that normal, sane people take absolutely no notice of PMQs.
As an abnormal, not-sane person, I have to say after the glories of the Blair-Hague and Cameron-Blair days, this is like growing up on a diet of Joe Frazier vs Muhammed Ali and suddenly being forced to watch Mick McManus vs Jackie Pallo.0 -
You think it's improved in recent years do you?Philip_Thompson said:
Syria under Assad was a "Nice Place" was it? Interesting theory ...HurstLlama said:
Perhaps if the West and the UK had kept its feckin nose out of the Arab Spring nonsense rather than taking sides Syria might still be a Nice Place.FF43 said:
They need to sort it out themselves. That is not callous indifference. Only they can solve their own problems. What international third parties CAN do is to support those that are trying to make a positive difference. That places like Syria don't have to be like this. The key here, I think, is Egypt. It's the largest and most influential Arab state. We should be on the side of those that push for democracy, liberalism and prosperity rather than thinking we are more comfortable with a strongman like Sissi. If Egypt is a good example of a country that works, I am sure others will follow. The West's unconditional support for Israel is a problem, although I accept it is a complicated problem. And then there is our indifference to Russia, who for the record are indiscriminately killing far more Syrian civilians as agents of that government than ISIS does on the streets of Europe.TOPPING said:
@Cyclefree
Whatever the worries about Brexit, the economy etc, we are really very fortunate.
Unless you are in Syria.
It really is intolerable that such a situation should be allowed to persist; perhaps another legacy of Iraq. Which power is going to commit hundreds of thousands of troops to make and then maintain peace anywhere these days?
Incidentally, I knew Syria somewhat and have good friends who live there. Despite the hideous government, it used to be a NICE place.
As for Egypt, when they were given a choice the Egyptians elected the Muslim Brotherhood. Whose first action was to start demolishing democracy. In fact regardless of the actions of the "strong men", Egypt has been moving away from liberalism for long time; Christians, secular people who once could flourish there are now openly persecuted and not by the government.
I don't think you ideas hold.0 -
Indeed. But the fact the West did eventually become democratic, liberal and prosperous is what provides the hope for the Arab world. There is no intrinsic reason why Arab countries shouldn't find their own path, which will be a different path from ours. In fact I know an number of Arabs who are totally up for it. It is worth supporting them in way that we are not doing at present.Cyclefree said:
I think the idea that the Arab world would embrace democracy and liberalism were it not for Israel/outside interference/IS/wicked Arab governments/etc is for the birds.
It took centuries for democracy and liberalism to develop in the West and its culture is very different to that in most of the Arab world. Democracy needs more than the mechanics to flourish. We may have to accept that there are peoples who do not want the political structures and political culture that we have.
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Wouldn't it be funny if they had managed to do away with Islington North?Jobabob said:
The last one (not implemented) was a total dog's breakfast. It lumped bits of two separate towns in with each other to make up the numbers. As you suggest, a child with a wax crayon and a basic command of simple geography could do better within the space of a school day.Lucian_Fletcher said:Boundary Commission reports are fascinating. Especially when you realise you could do a better job in about five bloody minutes.
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F1: Bernie to stay on for three more years. Not sure if that's good or bad tbh, he's the one who pushed through derestricting engine development for 2017 onwards but he is also the architect of the Sky deal which takes F1 off FTA TV.0
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SandyRentool said:
Wouldn't it be funny if they had managed to do away with Islington North?Jobabob said:
The last one (not implemented) was a total dog's breakfast. It lumped bits of two separate towns in with each other to make up the numbers. As you suggest, a child with a wax crayon and a basic command of simple geography could do better within the space of a school day.Lucian_Fletcher said:Boundary Commission reports are fascinating. Especially when you realise you could do a better job in about five bloody minutes.
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They knew full well. They had Iraq to go on. Then Libya. They were obeying Uncle Sam. Just as Tony Blair did before them.HurstLlama said:
FF43, who says he knew it and has friends there thinks it was. I recall lots of travel information and documentaries (including, I think, from our own SeanT) none of which said any different.Philip_Thompson said:
Syria under Assad was a "Nice Place" was it? Interesting theory ...
It seems likely to me that as long as you were not interested in politics you could get on and live a nice life in a nice place, raise your kids and generally get on with doing your own thing and a achieve a reasonable level of prosperity. A bit like under the old regime in Portugal, of which I and my family had extensive experience.
Now Syria has turned into a shit holewith hundreds of thousands of deaths, millions of refugees and whole cities destroyed. I wonder if the people who were so adamant the Assad had to go (including our own SoS for the FCO at the time, that pillock Hague) Could have been shown the consequences of their actions just how many of them would have chosen a different path.0 -
Tiny straws going cheap....perfect for clutching....justin124 said:I suspect that today's PMQ session marks the beginning of the end of May's honeymoon - though it may take longer to feed into the polls.Corbyn's style would flop in an election campaign but to be honest I am not sure that May would do much better . She appeared a fair bit more vulnerable today. There is something missing.
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Raf Sanchez
Hillary's press corps has taken to rolling fruit at her to try to ask questions: https://t.co/wTda2mexau0 -
I'm afraid I can't recall. I used to be consigned to my Nan's to keep her company during the Saturday afternoon wrestling, and the occasional mid-week Beetle Drive. Truly my early teens were full on rock'n'roll.PlatoSaid said:
Who was the really boring goodie in the blue trunks that often appeared with McManus? St John something? He was beyond dull.John_M said:It's worth remembering that normal, sane people take absolutely no notice of PMQs.
As an abnormal, not-sane person, I have to say after the glories of the Blair-Hague and Cameron-Blair days, this is like growing up on a diet of Joe Frazier vs Muhammed Ali and suddenly being forced to watch Mick McManus vs Jackie Pallo.0 -
Complete joke. Even 100MB by 2020 will be not be quick by standards of some developed countries.Sandpit said:How is 10MB in any way "high speed" broadband? Should be aiming for 100MB.
UK needs to get arse in gear. It one thing not being able to get 10MB+ in the far north of the Isle of Skye, but in too many areas in the UK a few miles from town centres and you can't get 50-100MB. For good of business and commerce, that has to be achieved asap.
However, I hear Germany is worse than us when it comes to widespread internet speed / connectivity.0 -
AFAIK the majority of Assad's army consists of Sunni Muslims. I'd be interested to see if their freedom of worship was compromised - I've not heard that it was. It seems to me that like the Wahhabist strain of Sunni Islam elsewhere, certain groups are not content if not imposing their version of Islam on others. That's what the rebels wanted to do, and many here supported them, whilst deploring the behaviour of similar groups in Europe. That's not morally defensible.Pulpstar said:
I half thought about a trip to Damascus before the shit hit the fan. It has the world's biggest restaurant! - Assad is undeniably a brutal dictator, but if you were Allawite, Christian or Atheist (And kept your head down politically) life was alright in Syria pre-war.0 -
Bernie will try and cling on until his dying day one way or another. The Putin of F1.MaxPB said:F1: Bernie to stay on for three more years. Not sure if that's good or bad tbh, he's the one who pushed through derestricting engine development for 2017 onwards but he is also the architect of the Sky deal which takes F1 off FTA TV.
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So she could literally slip up on a banana skin.PlatoSaid said:Raf Sanchez
Hillary's press corps has taken to rolling fruit at her to try to ask questions: https://t.co/wTda2mexau
(I know, bananas don't roll very well!)0 -
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I am not so sure. Corbyn does at least come across as genuine at a certain level - devoid of spin etc. May came across today as rather false and contrived. I just do not see her inspiring people somehow.nunu said:
Her jokes are over rehearsed, she needs to drop them, but would still massacre Corbyn.justin124 said:I suspect that today's PMQ session marks the beginning of the end of May's honeymoon - though it may take longer to feed into the polls.Corbyn's style would flop in an election campaign but to be honest I am not sure that May would do much better . She appeared a fair bit more vulnerable today. There is something missing.
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Hardly "nice", but probably tolerable for a lot more of its inhabitants than it is now.MaxPB said:
Nicer than it is now, for sure. In fact to the ordinary person, Syria had a relatively high amount of personal liberty and minorities had a solid amount of state protextion, especially in the context of the Middle East.Philip_Thompson said:
Syria under Assad was a "Nice Place" was it? Interesting theory ...HurstLlama said:
Perhaps if the West and the UK had kept its feckin nose out of the Arab Spring nonsense rather than taking sides Syria might still be a Nice Place.FF43 said:TOPPING said:
@Cyclefree
Whatever the worries about Brexit, the economy etc, we are really very fortunate.
Unless you are in Syria.
It really is intolerable that such a situation should be allowed to persist; perhaps another legacy of Iraq. Which power is going to commit hundreds of thousands of troops to make and then maintain peace anywhere these days?
Incidentally, I knew Syria somewhat and have good friends who live there. Despite the hideous government, it used to be a NICE place.
As for Egypt, when they were given a choice the Egyptians elected the Muslim Brotherhood. Whose first action was to start demolishing democracy. In fact regardless of the actions of the "strong men", Egypt has been moving away from liberalism for long time; Christians, secular people who once could flourish there are now openly persecuted and not by the government.
I don't think you ideas hold.0 -
Brexit bananas do, it was the eu which said they had to curve.SandyRentool said:
So she could literally slip up on a banana skin.PlatoSaid said:Raf Sanchez
Hillary's press corps has taken to rolling fruit at her to try to ask questions: https://t.co/wTda2mexau
(I know, bananas don't roll very well!)0 -
This is the first response.Theuniondivvie said:
19m
Vana @onomaru1
@thehill Texas people mostly endorses Trump, is a red state & a lot are gun owner. Remember that0 -
I haven't seen PMQs, so cannot say if Corbyn did well or not, but Mason is a nutcase, so I'm inclined to think the opposite whatever he says. I know he now feels he is free of the shackles which kept him from telling the truth as a journalist, and it is probably much more emotionally satisfying, but I do wonder how worthwhile it is to kiss the arse of political parties and leaders so slavishly that every utterance (even if he has a point) is comical.CarlottaVance said:Paul Mason tweets: Corbyn hammers May at PMQs over her opposition to making rented homes "fit for habitation". PLP silent. Mandatory reselection surely on way
Thought crime. Failure to appreciate the leader. Open & shut Case. Sentence first, Verdict Later!0 -
You mean you were going to go to Damascus and changed your mind?Pulpstar said:
I half thought about a trip to Damascus before the shit hit the fan. It has the world's biggest restaurant! - Assad is undeniably a brutal dictator, but if you were Allawite, Christian or Atheist (And kept your head down politically) life was alright in Syria pre-war.MaxPB said:
Nicer than it is now, for sure. In fact to the ordinary person, Syria had a relatively high amount of personal liberty and minorities had a solid amount of state protextion, especially in the context of the Middle East.Philip_Thompson said:
Syria under Assad was a "Nice Place" was it? Interesting theory ...HurstLlama said:
Perhaps if the West and the UK had kept its feckin nose out of the Arab Spring nonsense rather than taking sides Syria might still be a Nice Place.FF43 said:
They need to sort it out themselves. That is not callous indifference. Only they can solve their own problems. What international third parties CAN do is to support those that are trying to make a positive difference. That places like Syria don't have to be like this. The key here, I think, is Egypt. It's the largest and most influential Arab state. We should be on the side of those that push for democracy, liberalism and prosperity rather than thinking we are more comfortable with a strongman like Sissi. If Egypt is a good example of a country that works, I am sure others will follow. The West's unconditional support for Israel is a problem, although I accept it is a complicated problem. And then there is our indifference to Russia, who for the record are indiscriminately killing far more Syrian civilians as agents of that government than ISIS does on the streets of Europe.TOPPING said:
@Cyclefree
Whatever the worries about Brexit, the economy etc, we are really very fortunate.
Unless you are in Syria.
It really is intolerable that such a situation should be allowed to persist; perhaps another legacy of Iraq. Which power is going to commit hundreds of thousands of troops to make and then maintain peace anywhere these days?
Incidentally, I knew Syria somewhat and have good friends who live there. Despite the hideous government, it used to be a NICE place.
As for Egypt, when they were given a choice the Egyptians elected the Muslim Brotherhood. Whose first action was to start demolishing democracy. In fact regardless of the actions of the "strong men", Egypt has been moving away from liberalism for long time; Christians, secular people who once could flourish there are now openly persecuted and not by the government.
I don't think you ideas hold.0 -
Yes, probably not what we would consider "nice" in absolute terms but in relative terms a huge upgrade from today.Sean_F said:
Hardly "nice", but probably tolerable for a lot more of its inhabitants than it is now.MaxPB said:
Nicer than it is now, for sure. In fact to the ordinary person, Syria had a relatively high amount of personal liberty and minorities had a solid amount of state protextion, especially in the context of the Middle East.Philip_Thompson said:
Syria under Assad was a "Nice Place" was it? Interesting theory ...HurstLlama said:
Perhaps if the West and the UK had kept its feckin nose out of the Arab Spring nonsense rather than taking sides Syria might still be a Nice Place.FF43 said:TOPPING said:
@Cyclefree
Whatever the worries about Brexit, the economy etc, we are really very fortunate.
Unless you are in Syria.
It really is intolerable that such a situation should be allowed to persist; perhaps another legacy of Iraq. Which power is going to commit hundreds of thousands of troops to make and then maintain peace anywhere these days?
Incidentally, I knew Syria somewhat and have good friends who live there. Despite the hideous government, it used to be a NICE place.
As for Egypt, when they were given a choice the Egyptians elected the Muslim Brotherhood. Whose first action was to start demolishing democracy. In fact regardless of the actions of the "strong men", Egypt has been moving away from liberalism for long time; Christians, secular people who once could flourish there are now openly persecuted and not by the government.
I don't think you ideas hold.
If the west had left well alone and let Assad squash the "rebels" early on and not fill their heads with nonsense about a military victory and instead brokered a negotiated settlement early on we would not be in this situation.
The problem is Obama, he seems to be happy with regime change from secular dictators but unhappy with calling Islamist terrorists by their name. He has overseen the biggest foreign policy failures of the US since Vietnam.0 -
You're hardly inclined to vote Tory at the best of times are you?justin124 said:
I am not so sure. Corbyn does at least come across as genuine at a certain level - devoid of spin etc. May came across today as rather false and contrived. I just do not see her inspiring people somehow.nunu said:
Her jokes are over rehearsed, she needs to drop them, but would still massacre Corbyn.justin124 said:I suspect that today's PMQ session marks the beginning of the end of May's honeymoon - though it may take longer to feed into the polls.Corbyn's style would flop in an election campaign but to be honest I am not sure that May would do much better . She appeared a fair bit more vulnerable today. There is something missing.
She seemed to be to be genuine, though restraining herself at times with the attacks on Corbyn.0 -
By certain level, you mean a far-left terrorists appeasing 70s throwback. Yeah he's genuinely one of those.justin124 said:I am not so sure. Corbyn does at least come across as genuine at a certain level - devoid of spin etc. May came across today as rather false and contrived. I just do not see her inspiring people somehow.
0 -
No one thinks mere PMQs will impact public perception. It adds to the cumulative weight of factors which do influence public perception.John_M said:It's worth remembering that normal, sane people take absolutely no notice of PMQs.
As an abnormal, not-sane person, I have to say after the glories of the Blair-Hague and Cameron-Blair days, this is like growing up on a diet of Joe Frazier vs Muhammed Ali and suddenly being forced to watch Mick McManus vs Jackie Pallo.0 -
Yes, but as with Putin, I'm not sure whether he is good or bad for Russia.FrancisUrquhart said:
Bernie will try and cling on until his dying day one way or another. The Putin of F1.MaxPB said:F1: Bernie to stay on for three more years. Not sure if that's good or bad tbh, he's the one who pushed through derestricting engine development for 2017 onwards but he is also the architect of the Sky deal which takes F1 off FTA TV.
0 -
Besides I think it's a bit unfair to blame Bernie for F1 being on Sky. Every sport is ultimately going to either Sky or BT unless it is ringfenced by the government as having to be on FTA. It doesn't matter who is in charge, it would make no sense for any sport not to award the contract to Sky given the money they have at their disposal.FrancisUrquhart said:
Bernie will try and cling on until his dying day one way or another. The Putin of F1.MaxPB said:F1: Bernie to stay on for three more years. Not sure if that's good or bad tbh, he's the one who pushed through derestricting engine development for 2017 onwards but he is also the architect of the Sky deal which takes F1 off FTA TV.
0 -
It was interesting to research the bendy banana directives. They did exist (across 27 fruit & veg iirc) but were superseded and essentially repealed in the early teens, as part of a food waste reduction drive.Ishmael_X said:
Brexit bananas do, it was the eu which said they had to curve.SandyRentool said:
So she could literally slip up on a banana skin.PlatoSaid said:Raf Sanchez
Hillary's press corps has taken to rolling fruit at her to try to ask questions: https://t.co/wTda2mexau
(I know, bananas don't roll very well!)0 -
On housing I'm more with Corbyn than May, must say.kle4 said:
I haven't seen PMQs, so cannot say if Corbyn did well or not, but Mason is a nutcase, so I'm inclined to think the opposite whatever he says. I know he now feels he is free of the shackles which kept him from telling the truth as a journalist, and it is probably much more emotionally satisfying, but I do wonder how worthwhile it is to kiss the arse of political parties and leaders so slavishly that every utterance (even if he has a point) is comical.CarlottaVance said:Paul Mason tweets: Corbyn hammers May at PMQs over her opposition to making rented homes "fit for habitation". PLP silent. Mandatory reselection surely on way
Thought crime. Failure to appreciate the leader. Open & shut Case. Sentence first, Verdict Later!0 -
It's not her strong point. It's interesting though, because Corbyn definitely is not devoid of spin, (particularly lately but he was never devoid of it), but you're right people think he is devoid of it. It's another of those oddities, like Labour getting away with privatising bits of the NHS and the Tories getting away with cutting defence.justin124 said:
I am not so sure. Corbyn does at least come across as genuine at a certain level - devoid of spin etc. May came across today as rather false and contrived. I just do not see her inspiring people somehow.nunu said:
Her jokes are over rehearsed, she needs to drop them, but would still massacre Corbyn.justin124 said:I suspect that today's PMQ session marks the beginning of the end of May's honeymoon - though it may take longer to feed into the polls.Corbyn's style would flop in an election campaign but to be honest I am not sure that May would do much better . She appeared a fair bit more vulnerable today. There is something missing.
0 -
Carolus_Rex said:
You mean you were going to go to Damascus and changed your mind?Pulpstar said:
I half thought about a trip to Damascus before the shit hit the fan. It has the world's biggest restaurant! - Assad is undeniably a brutal dictator, but if you were Allawite, Christian or Atheist (And kept your head down politically) life was alright in Syria pre-war.MaxPB said:
Nicer than it is now, for sure. In fact to the ordinary person, Syria had a relatively high amount of personal liberty and minorities had a solid amount of state protextion, especially in the context of the Middle East.Philip_Thompson said:
Syria under Assad was a "Nice Place" was it? Interesting theory ...HurstLlama said:
Perhaps if the West and the UK had kept its feckin nose out of the Arab Spring nonsense rather than taking sides Syria might still be a Nice Place.FF43 said:
They need to sort it out themselves. That is not callous indifference. Only they can solve their own problems. What international third parties CAN do is to support those that are trying to make a positive difference. That places like Syria don't have to be like this. The key here, I think, is Egypt. It's the largest and most influential Arab state. We should be on the side of those that push for democracy, liberalism and prosperity rather than thinking we are more comfortable with a strongman like Sissi. If Egypt is a good example of a country that works, I am sure others will follow. The West's unconditional support for Israel is a problem, although I accept it is a complicated problem. And then there is our indifference to Russia, who for the record are indiscriminately killing far more Syrian civilians as agents of that government than ISIS does on the streets of Europe.TOPPING said:
@Cyclefree
Whatever the worries about Brexit, the economy etc, we are really very fortunate.
Unless you are in Syria.
It really is intolerable that such a situation should be allowed to persist; perhaps another legacy of Iraq. Which power is going to commit hundreds of thousands of troops to make and then maintain peace anywhere these days?
Incidentally, I knew Syria somewhat and have good friends who live there. Despite the hideous government, it used to be a NICE place.
As for Egypt, when they were given a choice the Egyptians elected the Muslim Brotherhood. Whose first action was to start demolishing democracy. In fact regardless of the actions of the "strong men", Egypt has been moving away from liberalism for long time; Christians, secular people who once could flourish there are now openly persecuted and not by the government.
I don't think you ideas hold. 0 -
Quite a bit nicer than other places at the time. Not nice now.Sean_F said:
Hardly "nice", but probably tolerable for a lot more of its inhabitants than it is now.MaxPB said:
Nicer than it is now, for sure. In fact to the ordinary person, Syria had a relatively high amount of personal liberty and minorities had a solid amount of state protextion, especially in the context of the Middle East.Philip_Thompson said:
Syria under Assad was a "Nice Place" was it? Interesting theory ...HurstLlama said:
Perhaps if the West and the UK had kept its feckin nose out of the Arab Spring nonsense rather than taking sides Syria might still be a Nice Place.FF43 said:TOPPING said:
@Cyclefree
Whatever the worries about Brexit, the economy etc, we are really very fortunate.
Unless you are in Syria.
It really is intolerable that such a situation should be allowed to persist; perhaps another legacy of Iraq. Which power is going to commit hundreds of thousands of troops to make and then maintain peace anywhere these days?
Incidentally, I knew Syria somewhat and have good friends who live there. Despite the hideous government, it used to be a NICE place.
As for Egypt, when they were given a choice the Egyptians elected the Muslim Brotherhood. Whose first action was to start demolishing democracy. In fact regardless of the actions of the "strong men", Egypt has been moving away from liberalism for long time; Christians, secular people who once could flourish there are now openly persecuted and not by the government.
I don't think you ideas hold.
The point is that an Arab country can be a socially liberal and inclusive place. How can it be delivered by a liberal democracy rather than a brutal dictatorship?0 -
Texas will vote Republican, but Hillary can improve her chances if she can force Trump onto the defense there and divert his resources away from the blue swing states.nunu said:
This is the first response.Theuniondivvie said:
19m
Vana @onomaru1
@thehill Texas people mostly endorses Trump, is a red state & a lot are gun owner. Remember that0 -
No. Our refusal to intervene following the rejection of the use of force in Parliament led by Ed Miliband has certainly not helped matters at all.Luckyguy1983 said:
You think it's improved in recent years do you?Philip_Thompson said:
Syria under Assad was a "Nice Place" was it? Interesting theory ...HurstLlama said:
Perhaps if the West and the UK had kept its feckin nose out of the Arab Spring nonsense rather than taking sides Syria might still be a Nice Place.FF43 said:
They need to sort it out themselves. That is not callous indifference. Only they can solve their own problems. What international third parties CAN do is to support those that are trying to make a positive difference. That places like Syria don't have to be like this. The key here, I think, is Egypt. It's the largest and most influential Arab state. We should be on the side of those that push for democracy, liberalism and prosperity rather than thinking we are more comfortable with a strongman like Sissi. If Egypt is a good example of a country that works, I am sure others will follow. The West's unconditional support for Israel is a problem, although I accept it is a complicated problem. And then there is our indifference to Russia, who for the record are indiscriminately killing far more Syrian civilians as agents of that government than ISIS does on the streets of Europe.TOPPING said:
@Cyclefree
Whatever the worries about Brexit, the economy etc, we are really very fortunate.
Unless you are in Syria.
It really is intolerable that such a situation should be allowed to persist; perhaps another legacy of Iraq. Which power is going to commit hundreds of thousands of troops to make and then maintain peace anywhere these days?
Incidentally, I knew Syria somewhat and have good friends who live there. Despite the hideous government, it used to be a NICE place.
As for Egypt, when they were given a choice the Egyptians elected the Muslim Brotherhood. Whose first action was to start demolishing democracy. In fact regardless of the actions of the "strong men", Egypt has been moving away from liberalism for long time; Christians, secular people who once could flourish there are now openly persecuted and not by the government.
I don't think you ideas hold.
For everyone who keeps saying intervention doesn't work, well as we saw in Srebenica so we have seen in Syria, non-intervention doesn't work either.0 -
An effective Opposition to mean she has to give a shit?justin124 said:I suspect that today's PMQ session marks the beginning of the end of May's honeymoon - though it may take longer to feed into the polls.Corbyn's style would flop in an election campaign but to be honest I am not sure that May would do much better . She appeared a fair bit more vulnerable today. There is something missing.
0 -
It depends how short or long term their vision is. Cricket more or less solely on Sky runs a real risk of ultimately killing it in E&W. Revenue in the short term though. Domestic rugby is not helping itself equally. It won't matter to soccer but for minority (but substantial) sports it's a poisoned chalice.Philip_Thompson said:
Besides I think it's a bit unfair to blame Bernie for F1 being on Sky. Every sport is ultimately going to either Sky or BT unless it is ringfenced by the government as having to be on FTA. It doesn't matter who is in charge, it would make no sense for any sport not to award the contract to Sky given the money they have at their disposal.FrancisUrquhart said:
Bernie will try and cling on until his dying day one way or another. The Putin of F1.MaxPB said:F1: Bernie to stay on for three more years. Not sure if that's good or bad tbh, he's the one who pushed through derestricting engine development for 2017 onwards but he is also the architect of the Sky deal which takes F1 off FTA TV.
0 -
F1 on Sky is entirely down to the BBC. The BBC wanted to cut costs approached Sky and they went together to Bernie with a deal....Philip_Thompson said:
Besides I think it's a bit unfair to blame Bernie for F1 being on Sky. Every sport is ultimately going to either Sky or BT unless it is ringfenced by the government as having to be on FTA. It doesn't matter who is in charge, it would make no sense for any sport not to award the contract to Sky given the money they have at their disposal.FrancisUrquhart said:
Bernie will try and cling on until his dying day one way or another. The Putin of F1.MaxPB said:F1: Bernie to stay on for three more years. Not sure if that's good or bad tbh, he's the one who pushed through derestricting engine development for 2017 onwards but he is also the architect of the Sky deal which takes F1 off FTA TV.
0 -
Bernie *created* F1 in its modern, successful form. He was present at the first F1 championship race (actually racing in another formula at the meet), and to a large extent was responsible for its turn to professionalisation from the late 70s onwards, defeating the likes of Balestre.FrancisUrquhart said:
Bernie will try and cling on until his dying day one way or another. The Putin of F1.MaxPB said:F1: Bernie to stay on for three more years. Not sure if that's good or bad tbh, he's the one who pushed through derestricting engine development for 2017 onwards but he is also the architect of the Sky deal which takes F1 off FTA TV.
He also brought Prof Watkins into the sport, and enhanced the safety requirements in the sport by granting Watkins a large amount of much-needed power over race weekends.
The TV rights are also interesting: before the late 1970s not all races were televised, even in their own countries. He realised where the sport's money would come from and worked to get that money.
Ecclestone is F1. He's a despot, but he's a despot over something that's largely his own creation.
F1 has problems at the moment, but I fear for it when he's gone.0 -
I'm honestly unsure if an Islamic country will ever deliver a stable, secularised democracy. Turkey was the main example and look at how it has changed towards a more Islamic style of government, moving away from secularism. The question is, IMO, does the west prefer stable secular dictatorships or unstable Islamic democracies. The ideal solution of stable secular democracy doesn't exist, and I don't think Islamic culture would ever allow it to exist.FF43 said:
Quite a bit nicer than other places at the time. Not nice now.Sean_F said:
Hardly "nice", but probably tolerable for a lot more of its inhabitants than it is now.MaxPB said:
Nicer than it is now, for sure. In fact to the ordinary person, Syria had a relatively high amount of personal liberty and minorities had a solid amount of state protextion, especially in the context of the Middle East.Philip_Thompson said:
Syria under Assad was a "Nice Place" was it? Interesting theory ...HurstLlama said:
Perhaps if the West and the UK had kept its feckin nose out of the Arab Spring nonsense rather than taking sides Syria might still be a Nice Place.FF43 said:TOPPING said:
@Cyclefree
Whatever the worries about Brexit, the economy etc, we are really very fortunate.
Unless you are in Syria.
It really is intolerable that such a situation should be allowed to persist; perhaps another legacy of Iraq. Which power is going to commit hundreds of thousands of troops to make and then maintain peace anywhere these days?
Incidentally, I knew Syria somewhat and have good friends who live there. Despite the hideous government, it used to be a NICE place.
As for Egypt, when they were given a choice the Egyptians elected the Muslim Brotherhood. Whose first action was to start demolishing democracy. In fact regardless of the actions of the "strong men", Egypt has been moving away from liberalism for long time; Christians, secular people who once could flourish there are now openly persecuted and not by the government.
I don't think you ideas hold.
The point is that an Arab country can be a socially liberal and inclusive place. How can it be delivered by a liberal democracy rather than a brutal dictatorship?0 -
Syria was a pretty nice (by most definitions) place to be even when Assad senior was reducing Hama to the ground in 1982 (I know, I was there) - provided you were not the attention of the security forces. The trouble is, if you look the other way when the bad stuff only happens to other people, eventually it happens to you too.FF43 said:
Quite a bit nicer than other places at the time. Not nice now.Sean_F said:
Hardly "nice", but probably tolerable for a lot more of its inhabitants than it is now.MaxPB said:
Nicer than it is now, for sure. In fact to the ordinary person, Syria had a relatively high amount of personal liberty and minorities had a solid amount of state protextion, especially in the context of the Middle East.Philip_Thompson said:
Syria under Assad was a "Nice Place" was it? Interesting theory ...HurstLlama said:
Perhaps if the West and the UK had kept its feckin nose out of the Arab Spring nonsense rather than taking sides Syria might still be a Nice Place.FF43 said:TOPPING said:
@Cyclefree
Whatever the worries about Brexit, the economy etc, we are really very fortunate.
Unless you are in Syria.
It really is intolerable that such a situation should be allowed to persist; perhaps another legacy of Iraq. Which power is going to commit hundreds of thousands of troops to make and then maintain peace anywhere these days?
Incidentally, I knew Syria somewhat and have good friends who live there. Despite the hideous government, it used to be a NICE place.
As for Egypt, when they were given a choice the Egyptians elected the Muslim Brotherhood. Whose first action was to start demolishing democracy. In fact regardless of the actions of the "strong men", Egypt has been moving away from liberalism for long time; Christians, secular people who once could flourish there are now openly persecuted and not by the government.
I don't think you ideas hold.
The point is that an Arab country can be a socially liberal and inclusive place. How can it be delivered by a liberal democracy rather than a brutal dictatorship?0 -
MaxPB said:
I'm honestly unsure if an Islamic country will ever deliver a stable, secularised democracy. Turkey was the main example and look at how it has changed towards a more Islamic style of government, moving away from secularism. The question is, IMO, does the west prefer stable secular dictatorships or unstable Islamic democracies. The ideal solution of stable secular democracy doesn't exist, and I don't think Islamic culture would ever allow it to exist.FF43 said:
Quite a bit nicer than other places at the time. Not nice now.Sean_F said:
Hardly "nice", but probably tolerable for a lot more of its inhabitants than it is now.MaxPB said:
Nicer than it is now, for sure. In fact to the ordinary person, Syria had a relatively high amount of personal liberty and minorities had a solid amount of state protextion, especially in the context of the Middle East.Philip_Thompson said:
Syria under Assad was a "Nice Place" was it? Interesting theory ...HurstLlama said:
Perhaps if the West and the UK had kept its feckin nose out of the Arab Spring nonsense rather than taking sides Syria might still be a Nice Place.FF43 said:TOPPING said:
@Cyclefree
Whatever the worries about Brexit, the economy etc, we are really very fortunate.
Unless you are in Syria.
It really is intolerable that such a situation should be allowed to persist; perhaps another legacy of Iraq. Which power is going to commit hundreds of thousands of troops to make and then maintain peace anywhere these days?
Incidentally, I knew Syria somewhat and have good friends who live there. Despite the hideous government, it used to be a NICE place.
As for Egypt, when they were given a choice the Egyptians elected the Muslim Brotherhood. Whose first action was to start demolishing democracy. In fact regardless of the actions of the "strong men", Egypt has been moving away from liberalism for long time; Christians, secular people who once could flourish there are now openly persecuted and not by the government.
I don't think you ideas hold.
The point is that an Arab country can be a socially liberal and inclusive place. How can it be delivered by a liberal democracy rather than a brutal dictatorship?
I agree. I cannot see how an Islamic country (with effectively a top-down rule-based structure) can be compatible with democracy where beliefs change over time from the people up. It would be like asking how a communist country can have democracy: it's incompatible.
0 -
Betting post
Owen Smith is now at something approaching a fair price for the contest: 19.5/20.0 on Betfair.
https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/#/politics/market/1.125575779
I've put £15 on at that price to square off 'all green' on the Labour leadership market, where the only way I can now lose out is if Owen Smith loses the contest and becomes next labour leader (Something I envisage will be coverable at much longer odds post contest).0 -
We had already intervened before the vote over bombing. We had been encouraging and supporting the "Rebels" for quite some time. So we had already stuck our oar in and made sure that the problem was worse than, perhaps, it needed to have been.Philip_Thompson said:
No. Our refusal to intervene following the rejection of the use of force in Parliament led by Ed Miliband has certainly not helped matters at all.Luckyguy1983 said:
You think it's improved in recent years do you?Philip_Thompson said:
Syria under Assad was a "Nice Place" was it? Interesting theory ...HurstLlama said:
Perhaps if the West and the UK had kept its feckin nose out of the Arab Spring nonsense rather than taking sides Syria might still be a Nice Place.FF43 said:
They need to sort it out themselves. That is not callous indifference. Only they can solve their own problems. What international third parties CAN do is to support those that are trying to make a positive difference. That places like Syria don't have to be like this. The key here, I think, is Egypt. It's the largest and most influential Arab state. We should be on the side of those that push for democracy, liberalism and prosperity rather than thinking we are more comfortable with a strongman like Sissi. If Egypt is a good example of a country that works, I am sure others will follow. The West's unconditional support for Israel is a problem, although I accept it is a complicated problem. And then there is our indifference to Russia, who for the record are indiscriminately killing far more Syrian civilians as agents of that government than ISIS does on the streets of Europe.TOPPING said:
@Cyclefree
Whatever the worries about Brexit, the economy etc, we are really very fortunate.
Unless you are in Syria.
It really is intolerable that such a situation should be allowed to persist; perhaps another legacy of Iraq. Which power is going to commit hundreds of thousands of troops to make and then maintain peace anywhere these days?
Incidentally, I knew Syria somewhat and have good friends who live there. Despite the hideous government, it used to be a NICE place.
As for Egypt, when they were given a choice the Egyptians elected the Muslim Brotherhood. Whose first action was to start demolishing democracy. In fact regardless of the actions of the "strong men", Egypt has been moving away from liberalism for long time; Christians, secular people who once could flourish there are now openly persecuted and not by the government.
I don't think you ideas hold.
For everyone who keeps saying intervention doesn't work, well as we saw in Srebenica so we have seen in Syria, non-intervention doesn't work either.0 -
I thought Mrs May was weak today at PMQs ..... far too pre-occupied in trying to score cheap political points against Corbyn, using pre-prepared cheap jibes. Nothing approaching Cameron's natural charm and ease of manner ..... I suppose that's what an Eton education does for you.
Marks out of 10? - I'd say 5/10 apiece or thereabouts.0 -
I would never vote Tory but have only voted Labour at one of the last five general elections. I will not vote Labour in 2020 if Corbyn is still leader.Philip_Thompson said:
You're hardly inclined to vote Tory at the best of times are you?justin124 said:
I am not so sure. Corbyn does at least come across as genuine at a certain level - devoid of spin etc. May came across today as rather false and contrived. I just do not see her inspiring people somehow.nunu said:
Her jokes are over rehearsed, she needs to drop them, but would still massacre Corbyn.justin124 said:I suspect that today's PMQ session marks the beginning of the end of May's honeymoon - though it may take longer to feed into the polls.Corbyn's style would flop in an election campaign but to be honest I am not sure that May would do much better . She appeared a fair bit more vulnerable today. There is something missing.
She seemed to be to be genuine, though restraining herself at times with the attacks on Corbyn.0 -
I've just watched PMQs. May was no where near as bad as some are suggesting. She looks nervous and speaks too quickly and has no comic timing. All easierly fixed. The real issue is why the conservative benches were relatively subdued and she looks every so slightly overwhelmed ? I think I know the fairly obvious answer but we'll see.
As for Corbyn. Housing is a passion of mine and arguably the country's biggest problem. But there is a time and a place. Corbyn would have tackled Chamberlain about Zero Hours Contracts during the Norway debate.0 -
Intervention can work but it's very expensive and typically requires troops not only to intervene, but to stabilise and garrison the country afterwards. Counter insurgency can take decades and often comes down to which side is willing to accept casualties for longest.Philip_Thompson said:
No. Our refusal to intervene following the rejection of the use of force in Parliament led by Ed Miliband has certainly not helped matters at all.Luckyguy1983 said:
You think it's improved in recent years do you?Philip_Thompson said:
Syria under Assad was a "Nice Place" was it? Interesting theory ...HurstLlama said:
Perhaps if the West and the UK had kept its feckin nose out of the Arab Spring nonsense rather than taking sides Syria might still be a Nice Place.FF43 said:
They need to sort it out themselves. That is not callous indifference. Only they can solve their own problems. What international third parties CAN do is to support those that are trying to make a positive difference. That places like Syria don't have to be like this.TOPPING said:
@Cyclefree
Whatever the worries about Brexit, the economy etc, we are really very fortunate.
Unless you are in Syria.
It really is intolerable that such a situation should be allowed to persist; perhaps another legacy of Iraq. Which power is going to commit hundreds of thousands of troops to make and then maintain peace anywhere these days?
Incidentally, I knew Syria somewhat and have good friends who live there. Despite the hideous government, it used to be a NICE place.
As for Egypt, when they were given a choice the Egyptians elected the Muslim Brotherhood. Whose first action was to start demolishing democracy. In fact regardless of the actions of the "strong men", Egypt has been moving away from liberalism for long time; Christians, secular people who once could flourish there are now openly persecuted and not by the government.
I don't think you ideas hold.
For everyone who keeps saying intervention doesn't work, well as we saw in Srebenica so we have seen in Syria, non-intervention doesn't work either.
Intervention in MENA is different to Europe or sub-Saharan Africa for the simple reason that much of the populace sees the West as a socio-cultural/religious threat, is only interested in energy resources and they are prepared (and armed) to take many more casualties for a long time.0 -
Finally confirmed
AP
US paid $1.7B arbitration settlement payment to Iran entirely in cash on day of American prisoners' release. https://t.co/RIJBNu2jYH0 -
And the 2018 is probably as much down to Sky as anyone else. By the looks of what was being offered anyone would have been mad not to accept the amount being offeredeek said:
F1 on Sky is entirely down to the BBC. The BBC wanted to cut costs approached Sky and they went together to Bernie with a deal....Philip_Thompson said:
Besides I think it's a bit unfair to blame Bernie for F1 being on Sky. Every sport is ultimately going to either Sky or BT unless it is ringfenced by the government as having to be on FTA. It doesn't matter who is in charge, it would make no sense for any sport not to award the contract to Sky given the money they have at their disposal.FrancisUrquhart said:
Bernie will try and cling on until his dying day one way or another. The Putin of F1.MaxPB said:F1: Bernie to stay on for three more years. Not sure if that's good or bad tbh, he's the one who pushed through derestricting engine development for 2017 onwards but he is also the architect of the Sky deal which takes F1 off FTA TV.
See https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2016/03/analysis-the-numbers-show-why-formula-1-took-the-exclusive-sky-deal/0 -
We sold them a dream that didn't exist. We told them they could have a liberal, democratic nation when what awaited them was an Islamofascist "democracy" of Iranian inspiration.HurstLlama said:We had already intervened before the vote over bombing. We had been encouraging and supporting the "Rebels" for quite some time. So we had already stuck our oar in and made sure that the problem was worse than, perhaps, it needed to have been.
We played Michael Eddington to their Maquis, to put it into Star Trek terms.0 -
NEW THREAD
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Yes, trying to lay sub-10 on Next Labour Leader and cover at 20ish on the contest looks fairly sensible. Smith's campaign and strategy don't seem to have gone down too well with many of the "moderates".Pulpstar said:Betting post
Owen Smith is now at something approaching a fair price for the contest: 19.5/20.0 on Betfair.
https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/#/politics/market/1.125575779
I've put £15 on at that price to square off 'all green' on the Labour leadership market, where the only way I can now lose out is if Owen Smith loses the contest and becomes next labour leader (Something I envisage will be coverable at much longer odds post contest).0 -
'Stable' dictatorships, secular or otherwise, only exist because they commit acts that subjugate anyone who dares to challenge them, especially internally.MaxPB said:
I'm honestly unsure if an Islamic country will ever deliver a stable, secularised democracy. Turkey was the main example and look at how it has changed towards a more Islamic style of government, moving away from secularism. The question is, IMO, does the west prefer stable secular dictatorships or unstable Islamic democracies. The ideal solution of stable secular democracy doesn't exist, and I don't think Islamic culture would ever allow it to exist.FF43 said:
Quite a bit nicer than other places at the time. Not nice now.Sean_F said:
Hardly "nice", but probably tolerable for a lot more of its inhabitants than it is now.MaxPB said:
Nicer than it is now, for sure. In fact to the ordinary person, Syria had a relatively high amount of personal liberty and minorities had a solid amount of state protextion, especially in the context of the Middle East.Philip_Thompson said:
Syria under Assad was a "Nice Place" was it? Interesting theory ...HurstLlama said:
Perhaps if the West and the UK had kept its feckin nose out of the Arab Spring nonsense rather than taking sides Syria might still be a Nice Place.FF43 said:TOPPING said:
@Cyclefree
Whatever the worries about Brexit, the economy etc, we are really very fortunate.
Unless you are in Syria.
It really is intolerable that such a situation should be allowed to persist; perhaps another legacy of Iraq. Which power is going to commit hundreds of thousands of troops to make and then maintain peace anywhere these days?
Incidentally, I knew Syria somewhat and have good friends who live there. Despite the hideous government, it used to be a NICE place.
As for Egypt, when they were given a choice the Egyptians elected the Muslim Brotherhood. Whose first action was to start demolishing democracy. In fact regardless of the actions of the "strong men", Egypt has been moving away from liberalism for long time; Christians, secular people who once could flourish there are now openly persecuted and not by the government.
I don't think you ideas hold.
The point is that an Arab country can be a socially liberal and inclusive place. How can it be delivered by a liberal democracy rather than a brutal dictatorship?0 -
I need to move on, but just to pick up your point. Being a Muslim is the key point of identity for most adherents. Any party they support will recognise that. However that's not any different from Ireland, say, in the old days where the Catholic Church had a huge influence on government but Ireland was still a democracy. It depends on how you define secular government - a government that acts separately from religious authority but could be influenced by it or a government that is completely neutral on religious affairs.MaxPB said:
I'm honestly unsure if an Islamic country will ever deliver a stable, secularised democracy. Turkey was the main example and look at how it has changed towards a more Islamic style of government, moving away from secularism. The question is, IMO, does the west prefer stable secular dictatorships or unstable Islamic democracies. The ideal solution of stable secular democracy doesn't exist, and I don't think Islamic culture would ever allow it to exist.
Any real Arab democracy will be in the space occupied by the Muslim Brotherhood, if not that organisation itself. Their big mistake in Egypt was not to make the transition from an insurgency to a political party. It will be mildly Islamist, if you will. In media terms Al Jazeera reflects what most middle class Arabs think. Maybe in the West we are uncomfortable with this and it isn't the politics I would vote for. But it's respectable and it's what most people want0 -
Indonesia (world's most populous Muslim nation) hasn't done so badly over the last two decades - after Suharto fell there have been 5 different Presidents - term limits, so after the current President steps down (hopefully after a second term) literally no one knows who the next President will be, unlike many of its immediate neighbours.....MaxPB said:
I'm honestly unsure if an Islamic country will ever deliver a stable, secularised democracy. Turkey was the main example and look at how it has changed towards a more Islamic style of government, moving away from secularism. The question is, IMO, does the west prefer stable secular dictatorships or unstable Islamic democracies. The ideal solution of stable secular democracy doesn't exist, and I don't think Islamic culture would ever allow it to exist.FF43 said:
Quite a bit nicer than other places at the time. Not nice now.Sean_F said:
Hardly "nice", but probably tolerable for a lot more of its inhabitants than it is now.MaxPB said:
Nicer than it is now, for sure. In fact to the ordinary person, Syria had a relatively high amount of personal liberty and minorities had a solid amount of state protextion, especially in the context of the Middle East.Philip_Thompson said:
Syria under Assad was a "Nice Place" was it? Interesting theory ...HurstLlama said:
Perhaps if the West and the UK had kept its feckin nose out of the Arab Spring nonsense rather than taking sides Syria might still be a Nice Place.FF43 said:TOPPING said:
@Cyclefree
Whatever the worries about Brexit, the economy etc, we are really very fortunate.
Unless you are in Syria.
It really is intolerable that such a situation should be allowed to persist; perhaps another legacy of Iraq. Which power is going to commit hundreds of thousands of troops to make and then maintain peace anywhere these days?
Incidentally, I knew Syria somewhat and have good friends who live there. Despite the hideous government, it used to be a NICE place.
As for Egypt, when they were given a choice the Egyptians elected the Muslim Brotherhood. Whose first action was to start demolishing democracy. In fact regardless of the actions of the "strong men", Egypt has been moving away from liberalism for long time; Christians, secular people who once could flourish there are now openly persecuted and not by the government.
I don't think you ideas hold.
The point is that an Arab country can be a socially liberal and inclusive place. How can it be delivered by a liberal democracy rather than a brutal dictatorship?0 -
I don't think it's an either/or question. The Islamic genie is out of the bottle; all the Saudi oil money that has been pumped into Wahabbist causes has created a monster that will not easily be tamed. A stable dictatorship is now, I suspect, only a temporary equilibrium state - it will tend to decay into a Islamic theocracy, only the timing is uncertain. All that Western support will do is delay this.MaxPB said:
I'm honestly unsure if an Islamic country will ever deliver a stable, secularised democracy. Turkey was the main example and look at how it has changed towards a more Islamic style of government, moving away from secularism. The question is, IMO, does the west prefer stable secular dictatorships or unstable Islamic democracies. The ideal solution of stable secular democracy doesn't exist, and I don't think Islamic culture would ever allow it to exist.FF43 said:
Quite a bit nicer than other places at the time. Not nice now.Sean_F said:
Hardly "nice", but probably tolerable for a lot more of its inhabitants than it is now.MaxPB said:
Nicer than it is now, for sure. In fact to the ordinary person, Syria had a relatively high amount of personal liberty and minorities had a solid amount of state protextion, especially in the context of the Middle East.Philip_Thompson said:
Syria under Assad was a "Nice Place" was it? Interesting theory ...HurstLlama said:
Perhaps if the West and the UK had kept its feckin nose out of the Arab Spring nonsense rather than taking sides Syria might still be a Nice Place.FF43 said:TOPPING said:
@Cyclefree
Whatever the worries about Brexit, the economy etc, we are really very fortunate.
Unless you are in Syria.
It really is intolerable that such a situation should be allowed to persist; perhaps another legacy of Iraq. Which power is going to commit hundreds of thousands of troops to make and then maintain peace anywhere these days?
Incidentally, I knew Syria somewhat and have good friends who live there. Despite the hideous government, it used to be a NICE place.
I don't think you ideas hold.
The point is that an Arab country can be a socially liberal and inclusive place. How can it be delivered by a liberal democracy rather than a brutal dictatorship?
Unless we can come up with a solution to the broader problem that is Islamic fundamentalism, of course.0 -
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Which one is Don?PlatoSaid said:0 -
'Today he could put the government on the rack on any number of issues, the junior doctors’ strike or the NHS funding problems'
On both these issues, the main Opposition simple don't have a leg to stand on..
The Government got a clear mandate to implement a seven day NHS service at the last GE, the Government unlike BMA were elected to oversee the NHS. The BMA represents just one group of NHS staff members, doctors. Jeremy Hunt as Health Minister is tasked with a duty of care to all patients and staff in the NHS. On the second issue of funding, it is a pretty tough gig trying to criticise a Government that not only ring fenced NHS funding, but then increased despite the austere economic situation the UK faced over the last six years.0
