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foxinsoxuk said:

foxinsoxuk said:

HurstLlama said:

The dilemma of Llama's cat (Schrodingers cat with a twist and for real):

Old cats go into very deep sleep and according to Herself it is very dangerous to wake them in case the shock gives them a heart attack from which they die. My cat is on the sofa and doesn't seem to have moved since he had his lunchtime prawns. My eyes are poor but I cannot see any sign of life, I am not sure if he is alive or has passed through the great cat flap. It is now his teatime.

Do I gently stroke his whiskers and so risk killing him or shall I let him sleep on even though he may actually be dead?

A mirror in front of his nose will mist if he is breathing. It is the best way to detect faint breathing.

Best not wake him though. If he was hungry he would let you know. Whether resting in peace or just resting peacefully no need to disturb him.

Let sleeping cats lie?

MarqueeMark said:

HurstLlama said:

The dilemma of Llama's cat (Schrodingers cat with a twist and for real):

Old cats go into very deep sleep and according to Herself it is very dangerous to wake them in case the shock gives them a heart attack from which they die. My cat is on the sofa and doesn't seem to have moved since he had his lunchtime prawns. My eyes are poor but I cannot see any sign of life, I am not sure if he is alive or has passed through the great cat flap. It is now his teatime.

Do I gently stroke his whiskers and so risk killing him or shall I let him sleep on even though he may actually be dead?

Stick a spare prawn under his nose.

But not a cucumber. No sirreeee.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsysNml153M

Look up 'superstimulus', I suspect http://www.sparringmind.com/supernormal-stimuli/

Scott_P said:

@carlgardner: Did Davis just say he intends the UK to stay in the European Arrest Warrant system?

@IanDunt: Yvette Cooper, also brilliant: Have they even looked at what home affairs issues will be? Has he decided if UK will be staying in Europol?

@JohnRentoul: Yvette Cooper gets a straight answer from David Davis: yes the Govt wants to remain part of EU home affairs cooperation.

The European Arrest Warrant is a mess. We should play no part in it.

"Last month, the award-winning chief correspondent of Sky News, Stuart Ramsay, reported on alleged gun-running in Romania. It was a shocking story and received much attention...

The country’s Directorate for Combatting Terrorism and Organised Crime asserts that Ramsay and his crew faked the whole report. But this is not the usual tale of allegation followed by denial. The Romanian authorities responded to the story with a formal request to the UK for legal assistance into a criminal investigation. The Sky journalists have been charged with spreading false information to the detriment of Romania’s national security...

I understand from highly placed sources that this is merely the first step and that the Romanians intend issuing a European Arrest Warrant for the extradition of Ramsay and his film crew. Under the terms of the agreement, there are only two grounds for denying that extradition if the paperwork is in order. A court must find that the defendant’s human rights will be breached or that the issue of the warrant is politically motivated."

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/09/the-case-that-shows-why-we-must-not-stay-in-the-european-arrest-warrant/

MaxPB said:

Anorak said:

MarqueeMark said:

Gardenwalker said:

MarqueeMark said:

Some of us on here did predict that there would be no post-Brexit house-price slump. Rather, that the fall in the pound would see foreign buyers piling in at bargain prices. And lo, it came to pass:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-uk-leaves-the-eu-37260267

Pretty shoddy reporting from BBC.
One Chinese lady in Colindale does not a "spending spree" make.

The "news" as that they reported it at all. Doesn't fit with the narrative....

Well speaking from West London (just along from Hammersmith), the market here has utterly dried up. Nothing shifting, no-one looking. Estate agents filled with houses and polyester suits, but no buyers. My neighbour went from a couple of viewings a day on her house to one a fortnight, if that.

Not good for me then, but I've been talking to agencies who seem to be quite bullish. Foxtons gave me a huge valuation.

Foxtons always give huge valuations. If something appears to be too good to be true.......

RobD said:

OldKingCole said:

RobD said:

OldKingCole said:

RobD said:

williamglenn said:

John_M said:

RobD said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

RobD said:

Jean-Claude Juncker, the head of the European Commission, has told Theresa May that she should not be holding free trade discussions with other nations while Britain is still a member of the EU.

What an idiot he is. Cameron was right to try to block his appointment.

Quite apart from anything else, it is entirely in the EU's interests for our exit to be as smooth and non-disruptive as possible. They should be encouraging us to talk as soon as possible both with the EU and with other countries. Any Article 50 turbulence is going to hit them as well as us.

Yep, it's only sensible to have these sort of arrangements in place for when we do leave the EU, since we can't negotiate a trade deal with the EU while negotiating our exit (as I understand it?)

I think this is actually an appropriate time for a Nelsonian blind eye to some of the EC's strictures. We're not going to cripple our national interest to flatter the vanity of a jumped up ex-Luxembourg town councillor.

Why not? We crippled our national interest to wound the vanity of a jumped up old Etonian PR man after all.

Crippled our national interest? Starting to sound like the discredited remain campaign now!

I cannot believe that our national interest required the creation of a prolonged period of economic uncertainlty, over and above the natural state of things.

That doesn't mean it has "crippled" it.

Well, it seems unlikely, in the medium term to help.

Yes, but I didn't say that, I was merely pointing out the hyperbole from williamglenn!

Which was uncalled for as I was merely echoing the hyperbole from John_M.

Cyclefree said:

MaxPB said:

Anorak said:

MarqueeMark said:

Gardenwalker said:

MarqueeMark said:

Some of us on here did predict that there would be no post-Brexit house-price slump. Rather, that the fall in the pound would see foreign buyers piling in at bargain prices. And lo, it came to pass:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-uk-leaves-the-eu-37260267

Pretty shoddy reporting from BBC.
One Chinese lady in Colindale does not a "spending spree" make.

The "news" as that they reported it at all. Doesn't fit with the narrative....

Well speaking from West London (just along from Hammersmith), the market here has utterly dried up. Nothing shifting, no-one looking. Estate agents filled with houses and polyester suits, but no buyers. My neighbour went from a couple of viewings a day on her house to one a fortnight, if that.

Not good for me then, but I've been talking to agencies who seem to be quite bullish. Foxtons gave me a huge valuation.

Foxtons always give huge valuations. If something appears to be too good to be true.......

Are you then locked into an exclusive contract, even if it turns out the 'valuation' was ridiculous?

RobD said:

All this talk from Farage about 'backsliding' due to May's comments on the points-based system, despite the fact she thought the points-based system would allow too many migrants into the country (given anyone who meets the criteria can enter, without limit). Bonkers!

May has also refused to rule out some UK contributions to the EU budget continuing today and has said there will be no extra £100m for the NHS. She is basically throwing the Vote Leave platform in the bin

williamglenn said:

RobD said:

OldKingCole said:

RobD said:

OldKingCole said:

RobD said:

williamglenn said:

John_M said:

RobD said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

RobD said:

Jean-Claude Juncker, the head of the European Commission, has told Theresa May that she should not be holding free trade discussions with other nations while Britain is still a member of the EU.

What an idiot he is. Cameron was right to try to block his appointment.

Quite apart from anything else, it is entirely in the EU's interests for our exit to be as smooth and non-disruptive as possible. They should be encouraging us to talk as soon as possible both with the EU and with other countries. Any Article 50 turbulence is going to hit them as well as us.

Yep, it's only sensible to have these sort of arrangements in place for when we do leave the EU, since we can't negotiate a trade deal with the EU while negotiating our exit (as I understand it?)

I think this is actually an appropriate time for a Nelsonian blind eye to some of the EC's strictures. We're not going to cripple our national interest to flatter the vanity of a jumped up ex-Luxembourg town councillor.

Why not? We crippled our national interest to wound the vanity of a jumped up old Etonian PR man after all.

Crippled our national interest? Starting to sound like the discredited remain campaign now!

I cannot believe that our national interest required the creation of a prolonged period of economic uncertainlty, over and above the natural state of things.

That doesn't mean it has "crippled" it.

Well, it seems unlikely, in the medium term to help.

Yes, but I didn't say that, I was merely pointing out the hyperbole from williamglenn!

Which was uncalled for as I was merely echoing the hyperbole from John_M.

Nothing hyperbolic in my post. I really don't care much for Mr Juncker's wounded amour propre. In my view, the only reason he's still in post is due to Mr Rajoy's travails.

I'm hoping we can pursue amicable negotiations with the Council, with the least amount of input from the Commission.

MP_SE said:

Scott_P said:

@carlgardner: Did Davis just say he intends the UK to stay in the European Arrest Warrant system?

@IanDunt: Yvette Cooper, also brilliant: Have they even looked at what home affairs issues will be? Has he decided if UK will be staying in Europol?

@JohnRentoul: Yvette Cooper gets a straight answer from David Davis: yes the Govt wants to remain part of EU home affairs cooperation.

The European Arrest Warrant is a mess. We should play no part in it.

"Last month, the award-winning chief correspondent of Sky News, Stuart Ramsay, reported on alleged gun-running in Romania. It was a shocking story and received much attention...

The country’s Directorate for Combatting Terrorism and Organised Crime asserts that Ramsay and his crew faked the whole report. But this is not the usual tale of allegation followed by denial. The Romanian authorities responded to the story with a formal request to the UK for legal assistance into a criminal investigation. The Sky journalists have been charged with spreading false information to the detriment of Romania’s national security...

I understand from highly placed sources that this is merely the first step and that the Romanians intend issuing a European Arrest Warrant for the extradition of Ramsay and his film crew. Under the terms of the agreement, there are only two grounds for denying that extradition if the paperwork is in order. A court must find that the defendant’s human rights will be breached or that the issue of the warrant is politically motivated."

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/09/the-case-that-shows-why-we-must-not-stay-in-the-european-arrest-warrant/

Politically motivated.

Though London harbors all sorts of criminals who are wanted in their EU countries and are not sent back.

Speedy said:

MP_SE said:

Scott_P said:

@carlgardner: Did Davis just say he intends the UK to stay in the European Arrest Warrant system?

@IanDunt: Yvette Cooper, also brilliant: Have they even looked at what home affairs issues will be? Has he decided if UK will be staying in Europol?

@JohnRentoul: Yvette Cooper gets a straight answer from David Davis: yes the Govt wants to remain part of EU home affairs cooperation.

The European Arrest Warrant is a mess. We should play no part in it.

"Last month, the award-winning chief correspondent of Sky News, Stuart Ramsay, reported on alleged gun-running in Romania. It was a shocking story and received much attention...

The country’s Directorate for Combatting Terrorism and Organised Crime asserts that Ramsay and his crew faked the whole report. But this is not the usual tale of allegation followed by denial. The Romanian authorities responded to the story with a formal request to the UK for legal assistance into a criminal investigation. The Sky journalists have been charged with spreading false information to the detriment of Romania’s national security...

I understand from highly placed sources that this is merely the first step and that the Romanians intend issuing a European Arrest Warrant for the extradition of Ramsay and his film crew. Under the terms of the agreement, there are only two grounds for denying that extradition if the paperwork is in order. A court must find that the defendant’s human rights will be breached or that the issue of the warrant is politically motivated."

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/09/the-case-that-shows-why-we-must-not-stay-in-the-european-arrest-warrant/

Politically motivated.

Though London harbors all sorts of criminals who are wanted in their EU countries and are not sent back.

One also does have to wonder, if we get The Donald, whether he will count the UK as one of those countries which harbours Islamic terrorists.

So can we add the EAW to ECHR?

Freedom indeed.

SimonStClare said:

Evening all – must be getting old, I have no idea what the poster in the heading means.

It shouldn't be a middle-aged lawyer pointing this out, but I believe it adapts an internet slogan first popularised by one Jamie Vardy, footballer.

No, the original slogan wasn't very witty either.

MarqueeMark said:

HurstLlama said:

The dilemma of Llama's cat (Schrodingers cat with a twist and for real):

Old cats go into very deep sleep and according to Herself it is very dangerous to wake them in case the shock gives them a heart attack from which they die. My cat is on the sofa and doesn't seem to have moved since he had his lunchtime prawns. My eyes are poor but I cannot see any sign of life, I am not sure if he is alive or has passed through the great cat flap. It is now his teatime.

Do I gently stroke his whiskers and so risk killing him or shall I let him sleep on even though he may actually be dead?

Stick a spare prawn under his nose.

But not a cucumber. No sirreeee.....

www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsysNml153M

They think cucumbers are large snakes or something.

TOPPING said:

MarkHopkins said:

Cyclefree said:

MaxPB said:

Anorak said:

MarqueeMark said:

Gardenwalker said:

MarqueeMark said:

Some of us on here did predict that there would be no post-Brexit house-price slump. Rather, that the fall in the pound would see foreign buyers piling in at bargain prices. And lo, it came to pass:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-uk-leaves-the-eu-37260267

Pretty shoddy reporting from BBC.
One Chinese lady in Colindale does not a "spending spree" make.

The "news" as that they reported it at all. Doesn't fit with the narrative....

Well speaking from West London (just along from Hammersmith), the market here has utterly dried up. Nothing shifting, no-one looking. Estate agents filled with houses and polyester suits, but no buyers. My neighbour went from a couple of viewings a day on her house to one a fortnight, if that.

Not good for me then, but I've been talking to agencies who seem to be quite bullish. Foxtons gave me a huge valuation.

Foxtons always give huge valuations. If something appears to be too good to be true.......

Are you then locked into an exclusive contract, even if it turns out the 'valuation' was ridiculous?

To date in London this has usually been a hypothetical question. Outrageous as those valuations usually are, they have mostly been achieved, if not exceeded.

Foxtons is a company you wouldn't want to buy from, but would happily commission to sell for you.

Only if they actually get offers at their valuations. And within a reasonable time frame. From buyers who actually go through with the transaction. I'm not sure - based solely on anecdotes from friends trying to sell houses - that the market is necessarily as hot as some are claiming.

HurstLlama said:

Re Thomas:

My thanks to those who offered advice. I found a mirror to hold by his nose, as per Dr Sox, and whilst I was trying to work out where in the bundle of curled fur his nose actually was and how I could get a mirror close to it I saw an ear flicker. So the old boy is still alive and just not ready for his tea yet (age and too many prawns at lunchtime I suppose).

Phew, thanks to all.

@Pulpstar Simba's 6.8kg seems an awful lot. The chap across the road has a Siamese that got into that range (mainly I think because at least two of the neighbours were also feeding his cat) and it has cost him an arm and a leg on Vet's bills.

A nation breathes easy..

very happy the old fellow still has some life in him.

Cyclefree said:

TOPPING said:

MarkHopkins said:

Cyclefree said:

MaxPB said:

Anorak said:

MarqueeMark said:

Gardenwalker said:

MarqueeMark said:

Some of us on here did predict that there would be no post-Brexit house-price slump. Rather, that the fall in the pound would see foreign buyers piling in at bargain prices. And lo, it came to pass:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-uk-leaves-the-eu-37260267

Pretty shoddy reporting from BBC.
One Chinese lady in Colindale does not a "spending spree" make.

The "news" as that they reported it at all. Doesn't fit with the narrative....

Well speaking from West London (just along from Hammersmith), the market here has utterly dried up. Nothing shifting, no-one looking. Estate agents filled with houses and polyester suits, but no buyers. My neighbour went from a couple of viewings a day on her house to one a fortnight, if that.

Not good for me then, but I've been talking to agencies who seem to be quite bullish. Foxtons gave me a huge valuation.

Foxtons always give huge valuations. If something appears to be too good to be true.......

Are you then locked into an exclusive contract, even if it turns out the 'valuation' was ridiculous?

To date in London this has usually been a hypothetical question. Outrageous as those valuations usually are, they have mostly been achieved, if not exceeded.

Foxtons is a company you wouldn't want to buy from, but would happily commission to sell for you.

Only if they actually get offers at their valuations. And within a reasonable time frame. From buyers who actually go through with the transaction. I'm not sure - based solely on anecdotes from friends trying to sell houses - that the market is necessarily as hot as some are claiming.

I'm sure it's calmed, but so far it has been a truism that no one ever lost money on the London property market.

Foxtons are pushy, brash, and effective. Or so I have found.

Today? No idea but I'd rather have them on my side if I was a seller.

RobD said:

HYUFD said:

RobD said:

All this talk from Farage about 'backsliding' due to May's comments on the points-based system, despite the fact she thought the points-based system would allow too many migrants into the country (given anyone who meets the criteria can enter, without limit). Bonkers!

May has also refused to rule out some UK contributions to the EU budget continuing today and has said there will be no extra £100m for the NHS. She is basically throwing the Vote Leave platform in the bin

Apart from the whole leaving the EU thing

Well clearly BREXIT will happen but the land of milk and honey the Leave campaign promised is now for the birds!

ToryJim said:

Evening all. I have to say the Brexit debate is intriguing. I have to say that although I was in favour of Remain and voted that way in June, now the decision has been made I'm erring on the side of a slightly harder Brexit. I certainly see no reason why we'd want to be part of anything not directly connected with trade. Also surely the key thing is access to the single market which doesn't necessarily require being within it and subject to all its nitpicking rules.

As for immigration I have never understood the obsession with points based systems as the acme of control. As far as I can see the only nations that employ them and that are indeed held as exemplars have proportionally far higher migration.

Well Australia and Canada have a points based system I think.

In America most are now fervently against it because Trump is in favour of it.

HYUFD said:

RobD said:

HYUFD said:

RobD said:

All this talk from Farage about 'backsliding' due to May's comments on the points-based system, despite the fact she thought the points-based system would allow too many migrants into the country (given anyone who meets the criteria can enter, without limit). Bonkers!

May has also refused to rule out some UK contributions to the EU budget continuing today and has said there will be no extra £100m for the NHS. She is basically throwing the Vote Leave platform in the bin

Apart from the whole leaving the EU thing

Well clearly BREXIT will happen but the land of milk and honey the Leave campaign promised is now for the birds!

It always was.

ToryJim said:

Evening all. I have to say the Brexit debate is intriguing. I have to say that although I was in favour of Remain and voted that way in June, now the decision has been made I'm erring on the side of a slightly harder Brexit. I certainly see no reason why we'd want to be part of anything not directly connected with trade. Also surely the key thing is access to the single market which doesn't necessarily require being within it and subject to all its nitpicking rules.

As for immigration I have never understood the obsession with points based systems as the acme of control. As far as I can see the only nations that employ them and that are indeed held as exemplars have proportionally far higher migration.

As made clear yesterday if Japanese factories are to stay in the UK we have to have some single market membership

ToryJim said:

Evening all. I have to say the Brexit debate is intriguing. I have to say that although I was in favour of Remain and voted that way in June, now the decision has been made I'm erring on the side of a slightly harder Brexit. I certainly see no reason why we'd want to be part of anything not directly connected with trade. Also surely the key thing is access to the single market which doesn't necessarily require being within it and subject to all its nitpicking rules.

As for immigration I have never understood the obsession with points based systems as the acme of control. As far as I can see the only nations that employ them and that are indeed held as exemplars have proportionally far higher migration.

The nitpicking rules are necessary, and are mostly requirements on vendors. Things like electrical safety, approved materials in the BoM, safe disposal. For agricultural products, things like approved pesticides/herbicides, hormones, antibiotics, GMO etc. We've seen some of the issues when vendors play silly sods e.g. VW.

If you believe the IFS, single market membership is worth about 1.8% of our GDP, or around £32bn p.a. By contrast TTIP was estimated to be worth about .35% of UK GDP by the mid '20s.

On thread, Ladbrokes are at present offering odds of 5/6 that Corbyn will get under 61.5%, (and likewise for over that figure). 61.5% is almost exactly the result of the YouGov poll.

I think it will be closer than that for reasons given on the previous thread. Don Brind goes even further. So 5/6 for under seems quite a good offer.

HYUFD said:

RobD said:

HYUFD said:

RobD said:

All this talk from Farage about 'backsliding' due to May's comments on the points-based system, despite the fact she thought the points-based system would allow too many migrants into the country (given anyone who meets the criteria can enter, without limit). Bonkers!

May has also refused to rule out some UK contributions to the EU budget continuing today and has said there will be no extra £100m for the NHS. She is basically throwing the Vote Leave platform in the bin

Apart from the whole leaving the EU thing

Well clearly BREXIT will happen but the land of milk and honey the Leave campaign promised is now for the birds!

I know they weren't in government, it would be up to the government, etc, etc, but I really do think it legitimate to ask what Brexit is going to look like without being accused of some vile anti-UK sentiment.

Many Remainers, well me for one, supposed pre-vote that post-Brexit UK would look an awful lot like pre-Brexit UK save for the fact that we would be in a less good position in various areas, almost certainly imperceptible to the human eye (diminution in GDP vs some kind of alternative; no input into some of the rules we will have to follow; extra admin burden; potential loss of FDI).

We had an almost instant u-turn on ECHR, and now it seems the EAW is going the same way (ie we are keeping it).

So we are surely allowed to ask, apart from being able to negotiate trade deals with up and coming Namibia, what it will do for us. EAW and ECHR were pretty strong "sovereignty" hot buttons and it seems we have not taken control. Is that just the start? Wait 'til single market negotiations come up.

Meanwhile the £350m, VAT on home energy, etc, etc have now become standing jokes, whereas a large number of people voted Leave for this reason.

Where exactly is the mooted benefit to our country?

TOPPING said:

Where exactly is the reclaimed sovereignty?

The discussion on what immigration system we should have is a prime example.

TOPPING said:

HYUFD said:

RobD said:

HYUFD said:

RobD said:

All this talk from Farage about 'backsliding' due to May's comments on the points-based system, despite the fact she thought the points-based system would allow too many migrants into the country (given anyone who meets the criteria can enter, without limit). Bonkers!

May has also refused to rule out some UK contributions to the EU budget continuing today and has said there will be no extra £100m for the NHS. She is basically throwing the Vote Leave platform in the bin

Apart from the whole leaving the EU thing

Well clearly BREXIT will happen but the land of milk and honey the Leave campaign promised is now for the birds!

I know they weren't in government, it would be up to the government, etc, etc, but I really do think it legitimate to ask what Brexit is going to look like without being accused of some vile anti-UK sentiment.

Many Remainers, well me for one, supposed pre-vote that post-Brexit UK would look an awful lot like pre-Brexit UK save for the fact that we would be in a less good position in various areas, almost certainly imperceptible to the human eye (diminution in GDP vs some kind of alternative; no input into some of the rules we will have to follow; extra admin burden; potential loss of FDI).

We had an almost instant u-turn on ECHR, and now it seems the EAW is going the same way (ie we are keeping it).

So we are surely allowed to ask, apart from being able to negotiate trade deals with up and coming Namibia, what it will do for us. EAW and ECHR were pretty strong "sovereignty" hot buttons and it seems we have not taken control. Is that just the start? Wait 'til single market negotiations come up.

Meanwhile the £350m, VAT on home energy, etc, etc have now become standing jokes, whereas a large number of people voted Leave for this reason.

Where exactly is the reclaimed sovereignty?

A few non-trade regulations and savings on MEPs expenses and some token migration controls most likely

RobD said:

TOPPING said:

Where exactly is the reclaimed sovereignty?

The discussion on what immigration system we should have is a prime example.

Yes I agree. I actually amended my last line: where exactly is the benefit for the UK, given that less will change than some Leavers hoped and voted for?

Does anyone know how to put a youtube link at a set time midway through the video on here?

GIN1138 said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

RobD said:

Jean-Claude Juncker, the head of the European Commission, has told Theresa May that she should not be holding free trade discussions with other nations while Britain is still a member of the EU.

What an idiot he is. Cameron was right to try to block his appointment.

Quite apart from anything else, it is entirely in the EU's interests for our exit to be as smooth and non-disruptive as possible. They should be encouraging us to talk as soon as possible both with the EU and with other countries. Any Article 50 turbulence is going to hit them as well as us.

As far as I'm aware we can sit down with whoever we like and talk about whatever we like?

One assumes that the reply given by May to Drunker was in a similar vain to that given by the respondent in the famous Arkell v Pressdram?

ToryJim said:

Mr Topping - the idea that in a complex world anyone is entirely at liberty to do exactly as they please is ludicrous. There were always going to be constraints on our freedom of action.

I agree. But that was not what was on the Leavers' big red battle tin. I agree that as @RobD has noted, the fact that we can choose what immigration system we have (although of course the single market negotiations will be acute in that respect), is an indication of our sovereignty. But what difference will it make to the country when the inevitable fudge is agreed?

Well we will have decided, of course. Just us. But as you say, the exogenous factors are such that the claim of sovereignty becomes less meaningful.

As a Labour supporter, over the past few weeks my moods have swung from despair to euphoria when various bits of info came comes out about the leadership election. Don's piece earlier gave me optimism, Joff's post, realism. Joff has called it right, there are many members like me, long-standing, keeping their heads down in the hope that the Corbyn whirlwind will blow over and perhaps after 2020 we can start regrouping.
My big hope is that the Tories,with no opposition will tear themselves apart over brexit and perhaps the next GE may not be as bad as I fear.
Thanks to both Don and Joff for most interesting pieces.

@TOPPING


'We had an almost instant u-turn on ECHR'


Has there been an announcement in the past 10 days ?


Human Rights Act will be scrapped, government confirms | The Week UK
www.theweek.co.uk/63635/human-rights-act-will-be-scrapped-government-confirms
23 Aug 2016 - Campaigners speak out after Liz Truss confirms Conservative ... British courts and the European Court of Human Rights and stop the act being ...

TOPPING said:

RobD said:

TOPPING said:

Where exactly is the reclaimed sovereignty?

The discussion on what immigration system we should have is a prime example.

Yes I agree. I actually amended my last line: where exactly is the benefit for the UK, given that less will change than some Leavers hoped and voted for?

The benefit being what Leavers proposed may not have actually been the best plan.

john_zims said:

@TOPPING


'We had an almost instant u-turn on ECHR'


Has there been an announcement in the past 10 days ?


Human Rights Act will be scrapped, government confirms | The Week UK
www.theweek.co.uk/63635/human-rights-act-will-be-scrapped-government-confirms
23 Aug 2016 - Campaigners speak out after Liz Truss confirms Conservative ... British courts and the European Court of Human Rights and stop the act being ...

It was on the WatO last week. We have decided not to withdraw from the EC(onvention on)HR. Which means that any British Bill of Rights (of the type mentioned in that article) will remain subordinate to the EC(ourt of)HR.

Edit: link - it is not the same as the Human Rights Act.

rightsinfo.org/breaking-theresa-may-will-not-try-leave-european-convention-human-rights/

Paul_Bedfordshire said:

SimonStClare said:

Paul_Bedfordshire said:

Does anyone know how to put a youtube link at a set time midway through the video on here?

Pause the video at the point you wish to start from. – Right click on the vid, ‘copy video URL at current time’ will appear, left click on it, then paste into PB comment box. {in theory )

did that but it just played from the beginning anyway

link works properly when pasted to browser direct but not here !

Paste it onto PB as a link:

[a href="URL HERE"]your text[/a]

replace [ with < and ] with >

Cyclefree said:

HurstLlama said:

Re Thomas:

My thanks to those who offered advice. I found a mirror to hold by his nose, as per Dr Sox, and whilst I was trying to work out where in the bundle of curled fur his nose actually was and how I could get a mirror close to it I saw an ear flicker. So the old boy is still alive and just not ready for his tea yet (age and too many prawns at lunchtime I suppose).

Phew, thanks to all.

@Pulpstar Simba's 6.8kg seems an awful lot. The chap across the road has a Siamese that got into that range (mainly I think because at least two of the neighbours were also feeding his cat) and it has cost him an arm and a leg on Vet's bills.

Hooray!

How old is Thomas? My last cat got to 20, which I thought was pretty impressive.

He is 19, Mrs Free. At his last check-up his very nice young German lady vet declared him in remarkable physical condition for his age. However, it is clear that he is getting on. He doesn't do much these days except eat and sleep and sometimes we catch him in an odd position as if he had started to do something (like turn around) and then forgot half way through what it was he wanted to do. However, he still enjoys his meals (he has just woken up and wandered into the kitchen demanding roast chicken, and no rubbish from Tesco either), snoozing in the garden when the sun is out and snuggling up to Herself after his evening cheese ration. So the quality of life is still there.

TOPPING said:

ToryJim said:

Mr Topping - the idea that in a complex world anyone is entirely at liberty to do exactly as they please is ludicrous. There were always going to be constraints on our freedom of action.

I agree. But that was not what was on the Leavers' big red battle tin. I agree that as @RobD has noted, the fact that we can choose what immigration system we have (although of course the single market negotiations will be acute in that respect), is an indication of our sovereignty. But what difference will it make to the country when the inevitable fudge is agreed?

Well we will have decided, of course. Just us. But as you say, the exogenous factors are such that the claim of sovereignty becomes less meaningful.

You raise a very legitimate question.

But I think you underestimate the value - to some - of decisions being made by politicians in Britain, answerable to the British electorate - rather than being made elsewhere. Self-government, even when this involves trade-offs rather than total freedom to do exactly what you want, regardless of others' wishes, is a value in itself. Rather an important one, IMO. And when it is missing all sort of other things go wrong with our political culture.

In reality, we will have to negotiate and this will necessarily involve compromises. But that is better than having decisions made for you, which you may well think against your interests, because you have in effect been outvoted by politicians who are not answerable to the British electorate.

I rather dislike this poo-poohing (and I am not addressing this to you personally) of democracy. The people may, in some eyes, be foolish but I prefer a system where foolish people have a say to one where they don't.

HurstLlama said:

Cyclefree said:

HurstLlama said:

Re Thomas:

My thanks to those who offered advice. I found a mirror to hold by his nose, as per Dr Sox, and whilst I was trying to work out where in the bundle of curled fur his nose actually was and how I could get a mirror close to it I saw an ear flicker. So the old boy is still alive and just not ready for his tea yet (age and too many prawns at lunchtime I suppose).

Phew, thanks to all.

@Pulpstar Simba's 6.8kg seems an awful lot. The chap across the road has a Siamese that got into that range (mainly I think because at least two of the neighbours were also feeding his cat) and it has cost him an arm and a leg on Vet's bills.

Hooray!

How old is Thomas? My last cat got to 20, which I thought was pretty impressive.

He is 19, Mrs Free. At his last check-up his very nice young German lady vet declared him in remarkable physical condition for his age. However, it is clear that he is getting on. He doesn't do much these days except eat and sleep and sometimes we catch him in an odd position as if he had started to do something (like turn around) and then forgot half way through what it was he wanted to do. However, he still enjoys his meals (he has just woken up and wandered into the kitchen demanding roast chicken, and no rubbish from Tesco either), snoozing in the garden when the sun is out and snuggling up to Herself after his evening cheese ration. So the quality of life is still there.

He is having a marvelous life. Long may it continue!

TOPPING said:

john_zims said:

@TOPPING


'We had an almost instant u-turn on ECHR'


Has there been an announcement in the past 10 days ?


Human Rights Act will be scrapped, government confirms | The Week UK
www.theweek.co.uk/63635/human-rights-act-will-be-scrapped-government-confirms
23 Aug 2016 - Campaigners speak out after Liz Truss confirms Conservative ... British courts and the European Court of Human Rights and stop the act being ...

It was on the WatO last week. We have decided not to withdraw from the EC(onvention on)HR. Which means that any British Bill of Rights (of the type mentioned in that article) will remain subordinate to the EC(ourt of)HR.

But we have our FREEDOM!

And the British Sausage...

https://youtu.be/OzeDZtx3wUw

weejonnie said:

In the meantime I'm kicking my heels because our software supplier's cloud storage crashed a week last Friday and they haven't been able to get it back up again.

Whoops. Hope you've got a punitive service level agreement with them.

Mr. Llama, glad to hear he's still up and about.

Mr. Eagles, well quite. Also, odd not to cite the Czech Republic and Slovakia velvet divorce, if one wants to go down that route of comparisons.

Edited extra bit: speaking of history, today I read the hound the first half of Suetonius' biography of Galba, and she seemed surprisingly interested.

TOPPING said:

Cyclefree said:

TOPPING said:

ToryJim said:

Mr Topping - the idea that in a complex world anyone is entirely at liberty to do exactly as they please is ludicrous. There were always going to be constraints on our freedom of action.

I agree. But that was not what was on the Leavers' big red battle tin. I agree that as @RobD has noted, the fact that we can choose what immigration system we have (although of course the single market negotiations will be acute in that respect), is an indication of our sovereignty. But what difference will it make to the country when the inevitable fudge is agreed?

Well we will have decided, of course. Just us. But as you say, the exogenous factors are such that the claim of sovereignty becomes less meaningful.

You raise a very legitimate question.

But I think you underestimate the value - to some - of decisions being made by politicians in Britain, answerable to the British electorate - rather than being made elsewhere. Self-government, even when this involves trade-offs rather than total freedom to do exactly what you want, regardless of others' wishes, is a value in itself. Rather an important one, IMO. And when it is missing all sort of other things go wrong with our political culture.

In reality, we will have to negotiate and this will necessarily involve compromises. But that is better than having decisions made for you, which you may well think against your interests, because you have in effect been outvoted by politicians who are not answerable to the British electorate.

I rather dislike this poo-poohing (and I am not addressing this to you personally) of democracy. The people may, in some eyes, be foolish but I prefer a system where foolish people have a say to one where they don't.

Of course, I agree with your last point. I (although I appreciate you had not said I had) do not pooh-pooh democracy. The opposite, as my comments on eg. UKIP, Tony Blair's Gulf war, and Brexit demonstrate.

And again without wishing to fight old battles, I think there is a matter of degree rather than substance between compromising to achieve benefit for the country outside the EU as we are about to do, and agreeing as a sovereign nation to compromise on various issues within the EU, as we have done these past few decades.

Indeed before Brexit we had a part in drafting the rules. Now our European neighbours will draft the rules. Our place is only to decide whether we sign up to others rules, or leave the business off.

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Llama, glad to hear he's still up and about.

Mr. Eagles, well quite. Also, odd not to cite the Czech Republic and Slovakia velvet divorce, if one wants to go down that route of comparisons.

Edited extra bit: speaking of history, today I read the hound the first half of Suetonius' biography of Galba, and she seemed surprisingly interested.

Brexiteers = The League of Empire Loyalists. That's explains why he went for the Indian comparison

TOPPING said:

Cyclefree said:

TOPPING said:

ToryJim said:

I agree. But that was not what was on the Leavers' big red battle tin. I agree that as @RobD has noted, the fact that we can choose what immigration system we have (although of course the single market negotiations will be acute in that respect), is an indication of our sovereignty. But what difference will it make to the country when the inevitable fudge is agreed?

Well we will have decided, of course. Just us. But as you say, the exogenous factors are such that the claim of sovereignty becomes less meaningful.

You raise a very legitimate question.

But I think you underestimate the value - to some - of decisions being made by politicians in Britain, answerable to the British electorate - rather than being made elsewhere. Self-government, even when this involves trade-offs rather than total freedom to do exactly what you want, regardless of others' wishes, is a value in itself. Rather an important one, IMO. And when it is missing all sort of other things go wrong with our political culture.

In reality, we will have to negotiate and this will necessarily involve compromises. But that is better than having decisions made for you, which you may well think against your interests, because you have in effect been outvoted by politicians who are not answerable to the British electorate.

I rather dislike this poo-poohing (and I am not addressing this to you personally) of democracy. The people may, in some eyes, be foolish but I prefer a system where foolish people have a say to one where they don't.

Of course, I agree with your last point. I (although I appreciate you had not said I had) do not pooh-pooh democracy. The opposite, as my comments on eg. UKIP, Tony Blair's Gulf war, and Brexit demonstrate.

And again without wishing to fight old battles, I think there is a matter of degree rather than substance between compromising to achieve benefit for the country outside the EU as we are about to do, and agreeing as a sovereign nation to compromise on various issues within the EU, as we have done these past few decades.

I think, in the end, the difference between is is that I feel the way the EU was going, the UK was not compromising within the EU but being overridden and that the reality of the power relationships were such that the problem would get worse rather than better.

A matter of degree, as you say, but sometimes these can be crucial.

The difference between those who did not much like the EU but thought on balance we should Remain and those who felt the same but thought on balance we should Leave is not as great as the division into Leavers/Remainers might suggest.

TheScreamingEagles said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Llama, glad to hear he's still up and about.

Mr. Eagles, well quite. Also, odd not to cite the Czech Republic and Slovakia velvet divorce, if one wants to go down that route of comparisons.

Edited extra bit: speaking of history, today I read the hound the first half of Suetonius' biography of Galba, and she seemed surprisingly interested.

Brexiteers = The League of Empire Loyalists. That's explains why he went for the Indian comparison

Your new avatar related to your answer to the question posed in the ill-fated 2011 referendum?

RobD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Llama, glad to hear he's still up and about.

Mr. Eagles, well quite. Also, odd not to cite the Czech Republic and Slovakia velvet divorce, if one wants to go down that route of comparisons.

Edited extra bit: speaking of history, today I read the hound the first half of Suetonius' biography of Galba, and she seemed surprisingly interested.

Brexiteers = The League of Empire Loyalists. That's explains why he went for the Indian comparison

Your new avatar related to your answer to the question posed in the ill-fated 2011 referendum?

A tribute to the 'which PM are you' quiz and my Osborne = Churchill piece last week.

HurstLlama said:

He is 19, Mrs Free. At his last check-up his very nice young German lady vet declared him in remarkable physical condition for his age. However, it is clear that he is getting on. He doesn't do much these days except eat and sleep and sometimes we catch him in an odd position as if he had started to do something (like turn around) and then forgot half way through what it was he wanted to do. However, he still enjoys his meals (he has just woken up and wandered into the kitchen demanding roast chicken, and no rubbish from Tesco either), snoozing in the garden when the sun is out and snuggling up to Herself after his evening cheese ration. So the quality of life is still there.

On the scale of 1 to 100 in the life quality of inhabitants of this planet, I think being Hurst's cat would score pretty high - possibly more than most of us. It's good to hear he's still ticking over, and of course returning the pleasure as all cats do just by existing.

foxinsoxuk said:

TOPPING said:

Cyclefree said:

TOPPING said:

ToryJim said:

You raise a very legitimate question.

But I think you underestimate the value - to some - of decisions being made by politicians in Britain, answerable to the British electorate - rather than being made elsewhere. Self-government, even when this involves trade-offs rather than total freedom to do exactly what you want, regardless of others' wishes, is a value in itself. Rather an important one, IMO. And when it is missing all sort of other things go wrong with our political culture.

In reality, we will have to negotiate and this will necessarily involve compromises. But that is better than having decisions made for you, which you may well think against your interests, because you have in effect been outvoted by politicians who are not answerable to the British electorate.

I rather dislike this poo-poohing (and I am not addressing this to you personally) of democracy. The people may, in some eyes, be foolish but I prefer a system where foolish people have a say to one where they don't.

Of course, I agree with your last point. I (although I appreciate you had not said I had) do not pooh-pooh democracy. The opposite, as my comments on eg. UKIP, Tony Blair's Gulf war, and Brexit demonstrate.

And again without wishing to fight old battles, I think there is a matter of degree rather than substance between compromising to achieve benefit for the country outside the EU as we are about to do, and agreeing as a sovereign nation to compromise on various issues within the EU, as we have done these past few decades.

Indeed before Brexit we had a part in drafting the rules. Now our European neighbours will draft the rules. Our place is only to decide whether we sign up to others rules, or leave the business off.

Or design our own rules which may be more attractive to business than EU rules. There is no need for us to be passive players.

We did in theory have a part in drafting rules. In reality, our chances of getting something we wanted or stopping something that we thought harmful to our interests were pretty small. The gap between the theory and reality was wide and getting wider. The failure of all politicians, British and European, to deal with this is one reason why Brexit happened.