politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Uniting the country
Comments
-
Why the need to form an existing one? They have plenty of choice:Danny565 said:
Move on to a breakaway party.rottenborough said:
It's possible. But honestly I really don't think it's going to happen. I honestly don't think the vast majority of the 300,000 really will care that much. They'll move on.MarqueeMark said:
I'll say it again, even if he isn't on the ballot paper, 300,000+ members will write CORBYN on the ballot - and vote for it. Whoever is declared the "winner" will have no authority - except over the MPs. Who will all be deselected. Pretty much the entire Labour Party in Westminster will be different after the next election - except those who were prepared to nominate Jeremy.oxfordsimon said:
As far as he is concerned, he has the overwhelming support of the membership - and thus the damage to unity comes from 172 traitors in the PLP
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Left
Electoral groups[edit]
Alliance for Green Socialism
Class War
Communist League
Communist Party of Britain
Respect Party
Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition
Socialist Equality Party
Socialist Labour Party
Socialist Party of Great Britain
Workers' Revolutionary Party
Groups working within TUSC[edit]
Further information: Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition
Socialist Party (England and Wales)
Socialist Workers Party
Non-electoral groups[edit]
Anti-revisionists[edit]
Further information: Anti-revisionism
Communist Party of Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
Communist Party of Great Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
New Communist Party of Britain
Revolutionary Communist Group
Revolutionary Communist Party of Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
Spartacist League
Others[edit]
Anarchist Federation
Communist Party of Great Britain (Provisional Central Committee)
Communist Workers Organisation
International Socialist League
Independent Working Class Association
World Revolution
Solidarity Federation
Workers' Fight
Groups working within Labour Party[edit]
Further information: Left Unity (UK)
Alliance for Workers Liberty
Left Unity
Socialist Resistance
Entryist groups within Labour Party[edit]
Further information: Entryism
Socialist Action
Socialist Appeal
Workers Power0 -
Big wirdz that have no application to the question...Jobabob said:
The Kinnock Precedent and the Collins Review.SeanT said:
Agreed. Don't get the assumption that the courts will concur with the NECnumbertwelve said:Jezza is an unmitigated disaster for the Labour Party but I cannot read those rules in any way other than that he doesn't need to obtain signatures. This will get nasty.
Any common sense reading of the rules finds in Jezbollah's favour. But IANAL and maybe there is some precedent which assists Labour.0 -
Be a step up, from where he presently is, for T.Blair.Pulpstar said:
I've levelled up to zero on Angela Eagle.IanB2 said:
What sane person with an ounce of foresight or understanding would want to become Labour leader right now in such circumstances?SouthamObserver said:
You seriously think that half of Labour's current vote would walk away if Corbyn were not leader?Danny565 said:
Yeah, along with most of the Labour membership, and atleast half of Labour's current vote. That's what the PLP are prepared to let happen if it means they get one of "their own" installed.The_Apocalypse said:
That will be a small price to pay in comparison to what could happen if Corbyn wins the leadership again.AndyJS said:
If he's denied a place on the ballot, will he and 15 other Labour MPs resign their seats in the Commons? They can't just take this lying down, surely.The_Apocalypse said:What a laugh Corbyn is. You cannot make this up.
This is a complete hospital pass. Who else will want it ?0 -
Having briefly gone undercover to mingle with Momentum's pixie people, I think the idea is that Labour need to replace the MPs, in order to better reflect the views of the members.DavidL said:I tend to agree with those who think the rules do not require the person being challenged, that is the incumbent, to be nominated but ffs, how can you possibly lead the party in Parliament when 3/4 have already passed a no confidence motion in you and 50 are not prepared to back you? This is through the looking glass, it really is.
0 -
The NEC will still back Corbyn I think. I would still be surprised if they pull it off. We shall see.0
-
Mr. S, but if Corbyn isn't on the ballot it does appear the NEC will be voting to ignore or to rewrite the rules.
That's not great (even if it's felt to be a necessary step to get a functioning Opposition).0 -
@DannyShawBBC: This is significant: @JBrokenshire says it would be "virtually impossible" to remove EU citizens who've been in the UK for at least 5 years0
-
I might've agreed the PLP had good intentions a while ago (after all, I voted for one of the PLP's own in a leadership election just a year ago), but I'm not that naive anymore.The_Apocalypse said:
Yes, I have. Most of my family votes Labour. I know Labour, Conservative, and even UKIP leavers. All of whom voted leave because of immigration. All of whom saw the economic problems affecting them, and potentially their children as connected to immigration. Did they dislike career politicians? Yes. But that's voters from all politcal parties, tbqh. Not just Labour. This isn't about going back to a career politician leading Labour. This isn't about installing a Blairite as the new Labour leader. This is about getting someone in - regardless of whether they are from the soft left of the party, or the right - who actually cares about winning elections. Who sees Labour as a political party, and not some meaningless social movement. Who takes into account the views of the membership, but does not hold the entire party hostage to each and everyone of their views. PLP moderates want to preserve the Labour party, as do the rest of the PLP. What they do not want is Leftist militants taking over the party, because once that happens there is no going back anymore.Danny565 said:With respect, have you actually spoken to (m)any Leave Labour voters?
Immigration was one of the big factors (although on that score, Corbyn and the PLP "moderates" are exactly the same, since the PLP still want to stay in the EU and keep freedom of movement anyway). But other big factors were how much people hated the "career/Establishment politicians" who were leading the Remain campaign, how people were sick of the economy screwing over the little guy, and just generally a scream for ANY change from the terrible status quo. If Labour goes back to a career politician, not promising any real changes from the status quo and sucking up to big businesses, with their main campaigning issues being total fringe issues like feminism, it follows to expect it to fare similarly to the Remain campaign which also based its platform on that.
But the PLP "moderates" probably know all that secretly, and they're not even bothering to CLAIM they would be more electable than Corbyn anymore - all they want is to preserve their own ideology even if that comes at the cost of a Remain-style electoral meltdown.
If the PLP were really concerned about getting Labour elected, they would not be calling for Labour to base their strategy on the main planks of the Remain Campaign, they would not be pushing forward a complete charisma vacuum like Angela Eagle who will NEVER be seen as a potential PM by the public, and they would not be trying to actively split the party as much as they are now. They are only concerned with their own ideological purity, as much as the hard left is.0 -
With the exception of 'Spartacist League', these are all terrible, terrible band names.Wulfrun_Phil said:
Why the need to form an existing one? They have plenty of choice:Danny565 said:
Move on to a breakaway party.rottenborough said:
It's possible. But honestly I really don't think it's going to happen. I honestly don't think the vast majority of the 300,000 really will care that much. They'll move on.MarqueeMark said:
I'll say it again, even if he isn't on the ballot paper, 300,000+ members will write CORBYN on the ballot - and vote for it. Whoever is declared the "winner" will have no authority - except over the MPs. Who will all be deselected. Pretty much the entire Labour Party in Westminster will be different after the next election - except those who were prepared to nominate Jeremy.oxfordsimon said:
As far as he is concerned, he has the overwhelming support of the membership - and thus the damage to unity comes from 172 traitors in the PLP
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Left
Electoral groups[edit]
Alliance for Green Socialism
Class War
Communist League
Communist Party of Britain
Respect Party
Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition
Socialist Equality Party
Socialist Labour Party
Socialist Party of Great Britain
Workers' Revolutionary Party
Groups working within TUSC[edit]
Further information: Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition
Socialist Party (England and Wales)
Socialist Workers Party
Non-electoral groups[edit]
Anti-revisionists[edit]
Further information: Anti-revisionism
Communist Party of Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
Communist Party of Great Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
New Communist Party of Britain
Revolutionary Communist Group
Revolutionary Communist Party of Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
Spartacist League
Others[edit]
Anarchist Federation
Communist Party of Great Britain (Provisional Central Committee)
Communist Workers Organisation
International Socialist League
Independent Working Class Association
World Revolution
Solidarity Federation
Workers' Fight
Groups working within Labour Party[edit]
Further information: Left Unity (UK)
Alliance for Workers Liberty
Left Unity
Socialist Resistance
Entryist groups within Labour Party[edit]
Further information: Entryism
Socialist Action
Socialist Appeal
Workers Power0 -
Wasn't it Baldrick?oxfordsimon said:
I think Harriet was also very much involved in that planBig_G_NorthWales said:
Wasn't it Ed who came up with the £3 membership scheme. Amazing if he ends up being blamed for destroying the labour partyPlatoSaid said:Martyn Rowe
This must be the 1st time in history a political party is fixing it so the members can't vote for the person they want to win #LabourNEC0 -
Yes, not sure there are plans to!Scott_P said:@DannyShawBBC: This is significant: @JBrokenshire says it would be "virtually impossible" to remove EU citizens who've been in the UK for at least 5 years
0 -
It would seem that Dave & Sam are doing it on the cheap by using SimplyRemovals.co.uk :
http://tinyurl.com/jquhcrg
What happened to trusty old John Lewis?
0 -
They can and do.EdgwareJoel said:
No, it means the courts can't make judgements on contract law when the contract defines who the separate arbitration panel is for resolving disputes.RobD said:
Which implies the Courts can't make judgement on any contract law, since it is an internal matter to the contracting parties.surbiton said:
The courts will say it is the internal matter of the Labour Party. Therefore, whatever, NEC says , goes.murali_s said:
The courts will back the NEC. The storm will die down in a few months...numbertwelve said:Jezza is an unmitigated disaster for the Labour Party but I cannot read those rules in any way other than that he doesn't need to obtain signatures. This will get nasty.
Most contractees would not be stupid enough to choose a nakedly political outfit as the impartial arbitrators, but this is the Labour Party we are talking about.0 -
Does this mean the NEC could interpret any article in the Labour rules as it wants to, as long as there is a challenge? Could it interpret 46 nominations as meaning 92 nominations, as long as the majority voted that way?0
-
Don't let David Lammy read that.megalomaniacs4u said:
maybe to get some black balls & a couple of jars for a secret vote?RodCrosby said:https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/752898327516151808
Calls of nature getting urgent?
To consult with their spiritual advisors?0 -
They are the establishment. They represent themselves.SouthamObserver said:
No, what they want is for Labour to continue being a party whose primary focus is on winning power through parliamentary elections. There is nothing else that unites the broad band of Labour MPs who are from all parts of the party, except the hard left (and maybe Andy Burnham)Danny565 said:
With respect, have you actually spoken to (m)any Leave Labour voters?The_Apocalypse said:
As if the EU encapsulates Labour moderates' whole view. Where on earth is the basis for this exactly? As I said before the very reason why Labour voters voted for Brexit is because of concerns regarding freedom of movement. The man you claim is close to Labour voters' political perspective is incredibly pro-freedom of movement and has far more left-wing views, than even the socially liberal PLP that you claim is miles away from the average Labour voter. As for Labour voters, back in April 2015 polls showed Ed Miliband scoring as a 81% of Labour voters 'approving' of him. Does it mean 81% of Labour voters would walk away from the party if Labour had deposed of Ed Miliband? No, it doesn't in my opinion. https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/vojtflusz6/YG-Archive-Pol-Sunday-Times-results-180415.pdf#page=3
Immigration was one of the big factors (although on that score, Corbyn and the PLP "moderates" are exactly the same, since the PLP still want to stay in the EU and keep freedom of movement anyway). But other big factors were how much people hated the "career/Establishment politicians" who were leading the Remain campaign, how people were sick of the economy screwing over the little guy, and just generally a scream for ANY change from the terrible status quo. If Labour goes back to a career politician, not promising any real changes from the status quo and sucking up to big businesses, with their main campaigning issues being total fringe issues like feminism, it follows to expect it to fare similarly to the Remain campaign which also based its platform on that.
But the PLP "moderates" probably know all that secretly, and they're not even bothering to CLAIM they would be more electable than Corbyn anymore - all they want is to preserve their own ideology even if that comes at the cost of a Remain-style electoral meltdown.0 -
A lot more than half the members, and atleast half of their current voters, IMO.SeanT said:IF Labour succeed in ousting Jez, what chance half their members depart, along with half the unions...
Leaving the party bankrupt?
And yet we're supposed to believe the PLP are concerned about "electability rather than ideology", when they're happy to have a party without its members/voters/funding, led by Angela Eagle.0 -
One problem with a radical shakeup of the cabinet that seems to be getting overlooked is Mays very small majority. She really can't afford to have a disgruntled dozen sitting on the back benches, not if she is wanting to pass any legislation anyway.
And that dozen were being organised by Osborne....0 -
A slim hope, but some hope.Jobabob said:The NEC will still back Corbyn I think. I would still be surprised if they pull it off. We shall see.
The truth is @Jobabob I really don't like losing bets and I have 150 on Corbyn to see out the year
I've reshaped the Lab leadership book to be acceptable whatever the outcome anyhow. Except Mr D Miliband. He best not swan over...0 -
Politics in the last few weeks has been like watching 10 box sets of 20 episode-long series in a fortnight.0
-
I am a lawyer (well, was - but lawyer is a tag that follows you to the grave, like murderer...) but I also cannot read those rules in any way other than that he doesn't need to obtain signatures.SeanT said:
Agreed. Don't get the assumption that the courts will concur with the NECnumbertwelve said:Jezza is an unmitigated disaster for the Labour Party but I cannot read those rules in any way other than that he doesn't need to obtain signatures. This will get nasty.
Any common sense reading of the rules finds in Jezbollah's favour. But IANAL and maybe there is some precedent which assists Labour.0 -
Yup we are on the cusp of the Judean People's Front and the Popular Front of Judea. Soon someone will pick up a sandal and another a gourd to venerate. Pythonesque doesn't come close.DavidL said:I tend to agree with those who think the rules do not require the person being challenged, that is the incumbent, to be nominated but ffs, how can you possibly lead the party in Parliament when 3/4 have already passed a no confidence motion in you and 50 are not prepared to back you? This is through the looking glass, it really is.
0 -
I get the feeling you've played all of the leader markets very poorly.Pulpstar said:0 -
If the next two elections are 2020 and 2025 I can't envisage Theresa May fighting more than one election. Maybe that's a statement of the obvious.GIN1138 said:
Wonder where The Blessed Theresa will finish up on that list?AndyJS said:Cameron is going to fall 91 days short of John Major's length of time in Downing Street.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Prime_Ministers_of_the_United_Kingdom_by_tenure
0 -
Heather Stewart
Am told the NEC's decision to hold secret ballot was swung by two female members particularly distressed about threat of intimidation.0 -
Mr. Pulpstar, that's tasty. Have you hedged?0
-
+1. Apart from the brand name and the slowly fading voting habits of a slowly ageing generation, they have nothing to offer except ambition on a stick.Alanbrooke said:
They are the establishment. They represent themselves.SouthamObserver said:
No, what they want is for Labour to continue being a party whose primary focus is on winning power through parliamentary elections. There is nothing else that unites the broad band of Labour MPs who are from all parts of the party, except the hard left (and maybe Andy Burnham)Danny565 said:
With respect, have you actually spoken to (m)any Leave Labour voters?The_Apocalypse said:
As if the EU encapsulates Labour moderates' whole view. Where on earth is the basis for this exactly? As I said before the very reason why Labour voters voted for Brexit is because of concerns regarding freedom of movement. The man you claim is close to Labour voters' political perspective is incredibly pro-freedom of movement and has far more left-wing views, than even the socially liberal PLP that you claim is miles away from the average Labour voter. As for Labour voters, back in April 2015 polls showed Ed Miliband scoring as a 81% of Labour voters 'approving' of him. Does it mean 81% of Labour voters would walk away from the party if Labour had deposed of Ed Miliband? No, it doesn't in my opinion. https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/vojtflusz6/YG-Archive-Pol-Sunday-Times-results-180415.pdf#page=3
Immigration was one of the big factors (although on that score, Corbyn and the PLP "moderates" are exactly the same, since the PLP still want to stay in the EU and keep freedom of movement anyway). But other big factors were how much people hated the "career/Establishment politicians" who were leading the Remain campaign, how people were sick of the economy screwing over the little guy, and just generally a scream for ANY change from the terrible status quo. If Labour goes back to a career politician, not promising any real changes from the status quo and sucking up to big businesses, with their main campaigning issues being total fringe issues like feminism, it follows to expect it to fare similarly to the Remain campaign which also based its platform on that.
But the PLP "moderates" probably know all that secretly, and they're not even bothering to CLAIM they would be more electable than Corbyn anymore - all they want is to preserve their own ideology even if that comes at the cost of a Remain-style electoral meltdown.0 -
A snap GE would be the proverbial cherry on top!Morris_Dancer said:Politics in the last few weeks has been like watching 10 box sets of 20 episode-long series in a fortnight.
0 -
The members might leave, but that is what the PLP wants! The voters don't care enough...Danny565 said:
A lot more than half the members, and atleast half of their current voters, IMO.SeanT said:IF Labour succeed in ousting Jez, what chance half their members depart, along with half the unions...
Leaving the party bankrupt?
And yet we're supposed to believe the PLP are concerned about "electability rather than ideology", when they're happy to have a party without its members/voters/funding, led by Angela Eagle.0 -
If the nec doesn't come to any decision, is Comrade Jez on the ballot by default (assuming he wants it)? Is there a quorum for a legit nec decision?0
-
Incidentally, the secret ballot can swing both ways.
Imagine you're on the NEC. If Corbyn wins, no reprisals. If he loses, people will wonder who voted this way or that. Which situation would make you feel more comfortable, in terms of personal safety?0 -
Well this UK reboot of House of Cards has been pretty exciting hasn't it. That Kevin Spacey Yanky knock off is looking a rubbish in comparison...0
-
He said that in the HOC last weekRobD said:
Yes, not sure there are plans to!Scott_P said:@DannyShawBBC: This is significant: @JBrokenshire says it would be "virtually impossible" to remove EU citizens who've been in the UK for at least 5 years
0 -
Yeah, whatever :-)Alanbrooke said:
They are the establishment. They represent themselves.SouthamObserver said:
No, what they want is for Labour to continue being a party whose primary focus is on winning power through parliamentary elections. There is nothing else that unites the broad band of Labour MPs who are from all parts of the party, except the hard left (and maybe Andy Burnham)Danny565 said:
With respect, have you actually spoken to (m)any Leave Labour voters?The_Apocalypse said:
As if the EU encapsulates Labour moderates' whole view. Where on earth is the basis for this exactly? As I said before the very reason why Labour voters voted for Brexit is because of concerns regarding freedom of movement. The man you claim is close to Labour voters' political perspective is incredibly pro-freedom of movement and has far more left-wing views, than even the socially liberal PLP that you claim is miles away from the average Labour voter. As for Labour voters, back in April 2015 polls showed Ed Miliband scoring as a 81% of Labour voters 'approving' of him. Does it mean 81% of Labour voters would walk away from the party if Labour had deposed of Ed Miliband? No, it doesn't in my opinion. https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/vojtflusz6/YG-Archive-Pol-Sunday-Times-results-180415.pdf#page=3
Immigration was one of the big factors (although on that score, Corbyn and the PLP "moderates" are exactly the same, since the PLP still want to stay in the EU and keep freedom of movement anyway). But other big factors were how much people hated the "career/Establishment politicians" who were leading the Remain campaign, how people were sick of the economy screwing over the little guy, and just generally a scream for ANY change from the terrible status quo. If Labour goes back to a career politician, not promising any real changes from the status quo and sucking up to big businesses, with their main campaigning issues being total fringe issues like feminism, it follows to expect it to fare similarly to the Remain campaign which also based its platform on that.
But the PLP "moderates" probably know all that secretly, and they're not even bothering to CLAIM they would be more electable than Corbyn anymore - all they want is to preserve their own ideology even if that comes at the cost of a Remain-style electoral meltdown.
0 -
I don't think the unions will desert them, for sure they will grumble for a bit and not be happy but they will stick by the party. Membership losses will be big but if they are losing those Momentum scum it's a price worth paying in the short-term, there is always a chance some of the moderates will stay and some might even rejoin the party.SeanT said:IF Labour succeed in ousting Jez, what chance half their members depart, along with half the unions...
Leaving the party bankrupt?
If Labour can get a credible leader on a center ground platform they could get investment from business or wealthy donors again especially if the economy really tanks and the conservative government struggles.
Getting rid of Jez and the aftermath shortly after is going to painful I would imagine for Labour but it's short-term pain for long-term gain.0 -
Very unlikely that constructing her govt as she sees fit will of itself provoke discontent. Only people to get snarky will be those who lack self-awareness and hold a higher opinion of themselves than is justified by objective assessment!DavidL said:One problem with a radical shakeup of the cabinet that seems to be getting overlooked is Mays very small majority. She really can't afford to have a disgruntled dozen sitting on the back benches, not if she is wanting to pass any legislation anyway.
And that dozen were being organised by Osborne....0 -
There will always be reprisals.Morris_Dancer said:Incidentally, the secret ballot can swing both ways.
Imagine you're on the NEC. If Corbyn wins, no reprisals. If he loses, people will wonder who voted this way or that. Which situation would make you feel more comfortable, in terms of personal safety?
0 -
No, they are concerned about Labour being a party that seeks power through Parliamentary elections.Danny565 said:
A lot more than half the members, and atleast half of their current voters, IMO.SeanT said:IF Labour succeed in ousting Jez, what chance half their members depart, along with half the unions...
Leaving the party bankrupt?
And yet we're supposed to believe the PLP are concerned about "electability rather than ideology", when they're happy to have a party without its members/voters/funding, led by Angela Eagle.
0 -
It's not about being naive, it's the truth. Angela Eagle is being put forward at this stage not because she'll win a GE but because at least under her the Labour party will SURVIVE. The Labour party as we know it will still be one committed to gaining power through parliamentary democracy. That will NOT be the case if Corbyn's leadership continues. As I stressed before in previous posts, this is no longer about even winning the next GE anymore. This is about the SURVIVAL of a political party. Cameroonian Tories also supported the Remain campaign: that does not mean they do not care about the Tories' electability. Indeed for a long period, it looked as though Remain would win. The PLP are not trying to split the party - they are trying to avoid splitting Labour by getting rid of Corbyn. If Corbyn stays on that is what will cause a split.Danny565 said:I might've agreed the PLP had good intentions a while ago (after all, I voted for one of the PLP's own in a leadership election just a year ago), but I'm not that naive anymore.
If the PLP were really concerned about getting Labour elected, they would not be calling for Labour to base their strategy on the main planks of the Remain Campaign, they would not be pushing forward a complete charisma vacuum like Angela Eagle who will NEVER be seen as a potential PM by the public, and they would not be trying to actively split the party as much as they are now. They are only concerned with their own ideological purity, as much as the hard left is.
This is not about 'ideological purity'. If that was the case, a cross section of PLP with various different views that depart from the so-called 'centre-ground' would not want Corbyn gone.0 -
The Anarchist Federation sounds a bit, well...too organised for anarchists?Wulfrun_Phil said:
Why the need to form an existing one? They have plenty of choice:Danny565 said:
Move on to a breakaway party.rottenborough said:
It's possible. But honestly I really don't think it's going to happen. I honestly don't think the vast majority of the 300,000 really will care that much. They'll move on.MarqueeMark said:
I'll say it again, even if he isn't on the ballot paper, 300,000+ members will write CORBYN on the ballot - and vote for it. Whoever is declared the "winner" will have no authority - except over the MPs. Who will all be deselected. Pretty much the entire Labour Party in Westminster will be different after the next election - except those who were prepared to nominate Jeremy.oxfordsimon said:
As far as he is concerned, he has the overwhelming support of the membership - and thus the damage to unity comes from 172 traitors in the PLP
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Left
Electoral groups[edit]
Alliance for Green Socialism
Class War
Communist League
Communist Party of Britain
Respect Party
Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition
Socialist Equality Party
Socialist Labour Party
Socialist Party of Great Britain
Workers' Revolutionary Party
Groups working within TUSC[edit]
Further information: Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition
Socialist Party (England and Wales)
Socialist Workers Party
Non-electoral groups[edit]
Anti-revisionists[edit]
Further information: Anti-revisionism
Communist Party of Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
Communist Party of Great Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
New Communist Party of Britain
Revolutionary Communist Group
Revolutionary Communist Party of Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
Spartacist League
Others[edit]
Anarchist Federation
Communist Party of Great Britain (Provisional Central Committee)
Communist Workers Organisation
International Socialist League
Independent Working Class Association
World Revolution
Solidarity Federation
Workers' Fight
Groups working within Labour Party[edit]
Further information: Left Unity (UK)
Alliance for Workers Liberty
Left Unity
Socialist Resistance
Entryist groups within Labour Party[edit]
Further information: Entryism
Socialist Action
Socialist Appeal
Workers Power0 -
I am embarrassed to say I have done a few judicial reviews of disciplinary proceedings in golf clubs and the courts had no problem with it. There is Scottish precedent for the Labour Party being taken to court over its internal disciplinary procedures and the application of natural justice. The courts will have no problem in getting involved in this. Corbyn has clear title and interest.Indigo said:
They can and do.EdgwareJoel said:
No, it means the courts can't make judgements on contract law when the contract defines who the separate arbitration panel is for resolving disputes.RobD said:
Which implies the Courts can't make judgement on any contract law, since it is an internal matter to the contracting parties.surbiton said:
The courts will say it is the internal matter of the Labour Party. Therefore, whatever, NEC says , goes.murali_s said:
The courts will back the NEC. The storm will die down in a few months...numbertwelve said:Jezza is an unmitigated disaster for the Labour Party but I cannot read those rules in any way other than that he doesn't need to obtain signatures. This will get nasty.
Most contractees would not be stupid enough to choose a nakedly political outfit as the impartial arbitrators, but this is the Labour Party we are talking about.0 -
LOLSouthamObserver said:
Yeah, whatever :-)Alanbrooke said:
They are the establishment. They represent themselves.SouthamObserver said:
No, what they want is for Labour to continue being a party whose primary focus is on winning power through parliamentary elections. There is nothing else that unites the broad band of Labour MPs who are from all parts of the party, except the hard left (and maybe Andy Burnham)Danny565 said:
With respect, have you actually spoken to (m)any Leave Labour voters?The_Apocalypse said:
As if the EU encapsulates Labour moderates' whole view. Where on earth is the basis for this exactly? As I said before the very reason why Labour voters voted for Brexit is because of concerns regarding freedom of movement. The man you claim is close to Labour voters' political perspective is incredibly pro-freedom of movement and has far more left-wing views, than even the socially liberal PLP that you claim is miles away from the average Labour voter. As for Labour voters, back in April 2015 polls showed Ed Miliband scoring as a 81% of Labour voters 'approving' of him. Does it mean 81% of Labour voters would walk away from the party if Labour had deposed of Ed Miliband? No, it doesn't in my opinion. https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/vojtflusz6/YG-Archive-Pol-Sunday-Times-results-180415.pdf#page=3
Immigration was one of the big factors (although on that score, Corbyn and the PLP "moderates" are exactly the same, since the PLP still want to stay in the EU and keep freedom of movement anyway). But other big factors were how much people hated the "career/Establishment politicians" who were leading the Remain campaign, how people were sick of the economy screwing over the little guy, and just generally a scream for ANY change from the terrible status quo. If Labour goes back to a career politician, not promising any real changes from the status quo and sucking up to big businesses, with their main campaigning issues being total fringe issues like feminism, it follows to expect it to fare similarly to the Remain campaign which also based its platform on that.
But the PLP "moderates" probably know all that secretly, and they're not even bothering to CLAIM they would be more electable than Corbyn anymore - all they want is to preserve their own ideology even if that comes at the cost of a Remain-style electoral meltdown.
arise Sir Southam ;-)0 -
If NEC members vote to keep their votes secret and then the same member(s) vote to keep Corbyn in the ballot, things have taken yet another bizarre and unexpected twist..Jobabob said:The NEC will still back Corbyn I think. I would still be surprised if they pull it off. We shall see.
0 -
If NEC splits 17-15 against Corbyn on the ballot, I guess assumptions will be made.Morris_Dancer said:Incidentally, the secret ballot can swing both ways.
Imagine you're on the NEC. If Corbyn wins, no reprisals. If he loses, people will wonder who voted this way or that. Which situation would make you feel more comfortable, in terms of personal safety?0 -
Morris_Dancer said:
Politics in the last few weeks has been like watching 10 box sets of 20 episode-long series in a fortnight.
0 -
Even at Blair's pomp, Labour didn't get THAT much funding from big businesses.jonny83 said:
I don't think the unions will desert them, for sure they will grumble for a bit and not be happy but they will stick by the party. Membership losses will be big but if they are losing those Momentum scum it's a price worth paying in the short-term, there is always a chance some of the moderates will stay and some might even rejoin the party.SeanT said:IF Labour succeed in ousting Jez, what chance half their members depart, along with half the unions...
Leaving the party bankrupt?
If Labour can get a credible leader on a center ground platform they could get investment from business or wealthy donors again especially if the economy really tanks and the conservative government struggles.
Getting rid of Jez and the aftermath shortly after is going to painful I would imagine for Labour but it's short-term pain for long-term gain.
Without the unions and the activists in the constituencies, there would never have been a Labour government, no matter how "centrist" the leadership was.0 -
Nope - they are concerned with Labour continuing to be a party that seeks power through Parliament. There is nothing else that unites them. But that is a pretty fundamental point.Danny565 said:
I might've agreed the PLP had good intentions a while ago (after all, I voted for one of the PLP's own in a leadership election just a year ago), but I'm not that naive anymore.The_Apocalypse said:
Yes, I have. militants taking over the party, because once that happens there is no going back anymore.Danny565 said:With respect, have you actually spoken to (m)any Leave Labour voters?
Immigration was one of the big factors (although on that score, Corbyn and the PLP "moderates" are exactly the same, since the PLP still want to stay in the EU and keep freedom of movement anyway). But other big factors were how much people hated the "career/Establishment politicians" who were leading the Remain campaign, how people were sick of the economy screwing over the little guy, and just generally a scream for ANY change from the terrible status quo. If Labour goes back to a career politician, not promising any real changes from the status quo and sucking up to big businesses, with their main campaigning issues being total fringe issues like feminism, it follows to expect it to fare similarly to the Remain campaign which also based its platform on that.
But the PLP "moderates" probably know all that secretly, and they're not even bothering to CLAIM they would be more electable than Corbyn anymore - all they want is to preserve their own ideology even if that comes at the cost of a Remain-style electoral meltdown.
If the PLP were really concerned about getting Labour elected, they would not be calling for Labour to base their strategy on the main planks of the Remain Campaign, they would not be pushing forward a complete charisma vacuum like Angela Eagle who will NEVER be seen as a potential PM by the public, and they would not be trying to actively split the party as much as they are now. They are only concerned with their own ideological purity, as much as the hard left is.
0 -
Quite a lot of those groups strike me as oxymorons.MarqueeMark said:
The Anarchist Federation sounds a bit, well...too organised for anarchists?Wulfrun_Phil said:
Why the need to form an existing one? They have plenty of choice:Danny565 said:
Move on to a breakaway party.rottenborough said:
It's possible. But honestly I really don't think it's going to happen. I honestly don't think the vast majority of the 300,000 really will care that much. They'll move on.MarqueeMark said:
I'll say it again, even if he isn't on the ballot paper, 300,000+ members will write CORBYN on the ballot - and vote for it. Whoever is declared the "winner" will have no authority - except over the MPs. Who will all be deselected. Pretty much the entire Labour Party in Westminster will be different after the next election - except those who were prepared to nominate Jeremy.oxfordsimon said:
As far as he is concerned, he has the overwhelming support of the membership - and thus the damage to unity comes from 172 traitors in the PLP
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Left
Electoral groups[edit]
Alliance for Green Socialism
Class War
Communist League
Communist Party of Britain
Respect Party
Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition
Socialist Equality Party
Socialist Labour Party
Socialist Party of Great Britain
Workers' Revolutionary Party
Groups working within TUSC[edit]
Further information: Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition
Socialist Party (England and Wales)
Socialist Workers Party
Non-electoral groups[edit]
Anti-revisionists[edit]
Further information: Anti-revisionism
Communist Party of Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
Communist Party of Great Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
New Communist Party of Britain
Revolutionary Communist Group
Revolutionary Communist Party of Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
Spartacist League
Others[edit]
Anarchist Federation
Communist Party of Great Britain (Provisional Central Committee)
Communist Workers Organisation
International Socialist League
Independent Working Class Association
World Revolution
Solidarity Federation
Workers' Fight
Groups working within Labour Party[edit]
Further information: Left Unity (UK)
Alliance for Workers Liberty
Left Unity
Socialist Resistance
Entryist groups within Labour Party[edit]
Further information: Entryism
Socialist Action
Socialist Appeal
Workers Power0 -
The Socialist Workers Party largely consists of people who have never had a proper job for a start..MaxPB said:
Quite a lot of those groups strike me as oxymorons.MarqueeMark said:
The Anarchist Federation sounds a bit, well...too organised for anarchists?Wulfrun_Phil said:
Why the need to form an existing one? They have plenty of choice:Danny565 said:
Move on to a breakaway party.rottenborough said:
It's possible. But honestly I really don't think it's going to happen. I honestly don't think the vast majority of the 300,000 really will care that much. They'll move on.MarqueeMark said:
I'll say it again, even if he isn't on the ballot paper, 300,000+ members will write CORBYN on the ballot - and vote for it. Whoever is declared the "winner" will have no authority - except over the MPs. Who will all be deselected. Pretty much the entire Labour Party in Westminster will be different after the next election - except those who were prepared to nominate Jeremy.oxfordsimon said:
As far as he is concerned, he has the overwhelming support of the membership - and thus the damage to unity comes from 172 traitors in the PLP
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Left
Electoral groups[edit]
Alliance for Green Socialism
Class War
Communist League
Communist Party of Britain
Respect Party
Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition
Socialist Equality Party
Socialist Labour Party
Socialist Party of Great Britain
Workers' Revolutionary Party
Groups working within TUSC[edit]
Further information: Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition
Socialist Party (England and Wales)
Socialist Workers Party
Non-electoral groups[edit]
Anti-revisionists[edit]
Further information: Anti-revisionism
Communist Party of Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
Communist Party of Great Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
New Communist Party of Britain
Revolutionary Communist Group
Revolutionary Communist Party of Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
Spartacist League
Others[edit]
Anarchist Federation
Communist Party of Great Britain (Provisional Central Committee)
Communist Workers Organisation
International Socialist League
Independent Working Class Association
World Revolution
Solidarity Federation
Workers' Fight
Groups working within Labour Party[edit]
Further information: Left Unity (UK)
Alliance for Workers Liberty
Left Unity
Socialist Resistance
Entryist groups within Labour Party[edit]
Further information: Entryism
Socialist Action
Socialist Appeal
Workers Power0 -
I value my Lab leadership book @ ~ £280 right now,MaxPB said:
I get the feeling you've played all of the leader markets very poorly.Pulpstar said:
18 Nandy
2.7 Watson
-7.1 D Miliband
1.8 Benn
10 McDonnell
1.5 Jarvis
5.7 Smith
0.2 Eagle
2 Other
10.5 Lewis
3.7 Ed Miliband
0.1 Chuka
0.1 Burnham
How is yours going ?0 -
What do we want...Anarchy...when do we want it...well we will have to have a meeting about that, then take a democratic vote on the various options proposed....next Wednesday sound good about 8.30pm?MaxPB said:
Quite a lot of those groups strike me as oxymorons.MarqueeMark said:
The Anarchist Federation sounds a bit, well...too organised for anarchists?Wulfrun_Phil said:
Why the need to form an existing one? They have plenty of choice:Danny565 said:
Move on to a breakaway party.rottenborough said:
It's possible. But honestly I really don't think it's going to happen. I honestly don't think the vast majority of the 300,000 really will care that much. They'll move on.MarqueeMark said:
I'll say it again, even if he isn't on the ballot paper, 300,000+ members will write CORBYN on the ballot - and vote for it. Whoever is declared the "winner" will have no authority - except over the MPs. Who will all be deselected. Pretty much the entire Labour Party in Westminster will be different after the next election - except those who were prepared to nominate Jeremy.oxfordsimon said:
As far as he is concerned, he has the overwhelming support of the membership - and thus the damage to unity comes from 172 traitors in the PLP
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Left
Electoral groups[edit]
Alliance for Green Socialism
Class War
Communist League
Communist Party of Britain
Respect Party
Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition
Socialist Equality Party
Socialist Labour Party
Socialist Party of Great Britain
Workers' Revolutionary Party
Groups working within TUSC[edit]
Further information: Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition
Socialist Party (England and Wales)
Socialist Workers Party
Non-electoral groups[edit]
Anti-revisionists[edit]
Further information: Anti-revisionism
Communist Party of Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
Communist Party of Great Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
New Communist Party of Britain
Revolutionary Communist Group
Revolutionary Communist Party of Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
Spartacist League
Others[edit]
Anarchist Federation
Communist Party of Great Britain (Provisional Central Committee)
Communist Workers Organisation
International Socialist League
Independent Working Class Association
World Revolution
Solidarity Federation
Workers' Fight
Groups working within Labour Party[edit]
Further information: Left Unity (UK)
Alliance for Workers Liberty
Left Unity
Socialist Resistance
Entryist groups within Labour Party[edit]
Further information: Entryism
Socialist Action
Socialist Appeal
Workers Power0 -
Jo Cox put Jeremy on the ballot - and now her ghost takes him off it...?PlatoSaid said:Heather Stewart
Am told the NEC's decision to hold secret ballot was swung by two female members particularly distressed about threat of intimidation.0 -
The problem is with the unions. What happens to Labour if they withhold funding.SeanT said:EdgwareJoel said:
The members might leave, but that is what the PLP wants! The voters don't care enough...Danny565 said:
A lot more than half the members, and atleast half of their current voters, IMO.SeanT said:IF Labour succeed in ousting Jez, what chance half their members depart, along with half the unions...
Leaving the party bankrupt?
And yet we're supposed to believe the PLP are concerned about "electability rather than ideology", when they're happy to have a party without its members/voters/funding, led by Angela Eagle.
Yep. A chunk of angry members will quit, but voters will just be pleased they got rid of the old fool - if they care at all.EdgwareJoel said:
The members might leave, but that is what the PLP wants! The voters don't care enough...Danny565 said:
A lot more than half the members, and atleast half of their current voters, IMO.SeanT said:IF Labour succeed in ousting Jez, what chance half their members depart, along with half the unions...
Leaving the party bankrupt?
And yet we're supposed to believe the PLP are concerned about "electability rather than ideology", when they're happy to have a party without its members/voters/funding, led by Angela Eagle.0 -
That is what will happen, you can pretty much count on it. Labour is Labour, after all, and is programmed to take the wrong decision at just about every turn.IanB2 said:
If NEC members vote to keep their votes secret and then the same member(s) vote to keep Corbyn in the ballot, things have taken yet another bizarre and unexpected twist..Jobabob said:The NEC will still back Corbyn I think. I would still be surprised if they pull it off. We shall see.
0 -
Why on earth would the party have a better chance of surviving with Angela Eagle than it would with Corbyn?The_Apocalypse said:
It's not about being naive, it's the truth. Angela Eagle is being put forward at this stage not because she'll win a GE but because at least under her the Labour party will SURVIVE. The Labour party as we know it will still be one committed to gaining power through parliamentary democracy. That will NOT be the case if Corbyn's leadership continues. As I stressed before in previous posts, this is no longer about even winning the next GE anymore. This is about the SURVIVAL of a political party. Cameroonian Tories also supported the Remain campaign: that does not mean they do not care about the Tories' electability. Indeed for a long period, it looked as though Remain would win. The PLP are not trying to split the party - they are trying to avoid splitting Labour by getting rid of Corbyn. If Corbyn stays on that is what will cause a split.Danny565 said:I might've agreed the PLP had good intentions a while ago (after all, I voted for one of the PLP's own in a leadership election just a year ago), but I'm not that naive anymore.
If the PLP were really concerned about getting Labour elected, they would not be calling for Labour to base their strategy on the main planks of the Remain Campaign, they would not be pushing forward a complete charisma vacuum like Angela Eagle who will NEVER be seen as a potential PM by the public, and they would not be trying to actively split the party as much as they are now. They are only concerned with their own ideological purity, as much as the hard left is.
This is not about 'ideological purity'. If that was the case, a cross section of PLP with various different views that depart from the so-called 'centre-ground' would not want Corbyn gone.0 -
Even I am not forecasting that the whole parliamentary party will be after her. But her majority is small and it will constrain her.ToryJim said:
Very unlikely that constructing her govt as she sees fit will of itself provoke discontent. Only people to get snarky will be those who lack self-awareness and hold a higher opinion of themselves than is justified by objective assessment!DavidL said:One problem with a radical shakeup of the cabinet that seems to be getting overlooked is Mays very small majority. She really can't afford to have a disgruntled dozen sitting on the back benches, not if she is wanting to pass any legislation anyway.
And that dozen were being organised by Osborne....0 -
"Anarchy Must Be Organised":MarqueeMark said:
The Anarchist Federation sounds a bit, well...too organised for anarchists?Wulfrun_Phil said:
Why the need to form an existing one? They have plenty of choice:Danny565 said:
Move on to a breakaway party.rottenborough said:
It's possible. But honestly I really don't think it's going to happen. I honestly don't think the vast majority of the 300,000 really will care that much. They'll move on.MarqueeMark said:
I'll say it again, even if he isn't on the ballot paper, 300,000+ members will write CORBYN on the ballot - and vote for it. Whoever is declared the "winner" will have no authority - except over the MPs. Who will all be deselected. Pretty much the entire Labour Party in Westminster will be different after the next election - except those who were prepared to nominate Jeremy.oxfordsimon said:
As far as he is concerned, he has the overwhelming support of the membership - and thus the damage to unity comes from 172 traitors in the PLP
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Left
Electoral groups[edit]
Alliance for Green Socialism
Class War
Communist League
Communist Party of Britain
Respect Party
Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition
Socialist Equality Party
Socialist Labour Party
Socialist Party of Great Britain
Workers' Revolutionary Party
Groups working within TUSC[edit]
Further information: Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition
Socialist Party (England and Wales)
Socialist Workers Party
Non-electoral groups[edit]
Anti-revisionists[edit]
Further information: Anti-revisionism
Communist Party of Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
Communist Party of Great Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
New Communist Party of Britain
Revolutionary Communist Group
Revolutionary Communist Party of Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
Spartacist League
Others[edit]
Anarchist Federation
Communist Party of Great Britain (Provisional Central Committee)
Communist Workers Organisation
International Socialist League
Independent Working Class Association
World Revolution
Solidarity Federation
Workers' Fight
Groups working within Labour Party[edit]
Further information: Left Unity (UK)
Alliance for Workers Liberty
Left Unity
Socialist Resistance
Entryist groups within Labour Party[edit]
Further information: Entryism
Socialist Action
Socialist Appeal
Workers Power
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b072zn420 -
At least twenty dead in this italian train crash I see. Apparently both units were four carriage. The front two of one and the front carriage of the other have been obliterated.
I fear that, unless the trains were very lightly loaded there may be worse news to follow.
0 -
A few weeks ago I bought a box set of "1992" - subtitled "power and corruption go hand in hand" - which is, I am assured, a gripping Italian drama series about the turbulent politics of that year. "Fiction is never going to beat Italian history for sheer entertainment value", it says on the box. However British reality has, and I have not yet been able to tear myself away from events long enough to pop in the first DVD...PlatoSaid said:Morris_Dancer said:Politics in the last few weeks has been like watching 10 box sets of 20 episode-long series in a fortnight.
0 -
I was just asking!RobD said:
Different party, different rules.Sunil_Prasannan said:Did Maggie need nominations after Sir Anthony Meyer (1989) and Michael Heseltine (1990) challenged her?
0 -
Tut!Sunil_Prasannan said:
I was just asking!RobD said:
Different party, different rules.Sunil_Prasannan said:Did Maggie need nominations after Sir Anthony Meyer (1989) and Michael Heseltine (1990) challenged her?
0 -
Probably not helped by this:Pro_Rata said:
If NEC splits 17-15 against Corbyn on the ballot, I guess assumptions will be made.Morris_Dancer said:Incidentally, the secret ballot can swing both ways.
Imagine you're on the NEC. If Corbyn wins, no reprisals. If he loses, people will wonder who voted this way or that. Which situation would make you feel more comfortable, in terms of personal safety?
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1niEjEpfyU8ksQ0ETYMZY6cocJjS0icd3h-e39WUSQ8Q/htmlview?usp=sharing&pref=2&pli=1&sle=true0 -
I think you missed a few.MarqueeMark said:
The Anarchist Federation sounds a bit, well...too organised for anarchists?Wulfrun_Phil said:
Why the need to form an existing one? They have plenty of choice:Danny565 said:
Move on to a breakaway party.rottenborough said:
It's possible. But honestly I really don't think it's going to happen. I honestly don't think the vast majority of the 300,000 really will care that much. They'll move on.MarqueeMark said:
I'll say it again, even if he isn't on the ballot paper, 300,000+ members will write CORBYN on the ballot - and vote for it. Whoever is declared the "winner" will have no authority - except over the MPs. Who will all be deselected. Pretty much the entire Labour Party in Westminster will be different after the next election - except those who were prepared to nominate Jeremy.oxfordsimon said:
As far as he is concerned, he has the overwhelming support of the membership - and thus the damage to unity comes from 172 traitors in the PLP
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Left
Electoral groups[edit]
Alliance for Green Socialism
Class War
Communist League
Communist Party of Britain
Respect Party
Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition
Socialist Equality Party
Socialist Labour Party
Socialist Party of Great Britain
Workers' Revolutionary Party
Groups working within TUSC[edit]
Further information: Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition
Socialist Party (England and Wales)
Socialist Workers Party
Non-electoral groups[edit]
Anti-revisionists[edit]
Further information: Anti-revisionism
Communist Party of Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
Communist Party of Great Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
New Communist Party of Britain
Revolutionary Communist Group
Revolutionary Communist Party of Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
Spartacist League
Others[edit]
Anarchist Federation
Communist Party of Great Britain (Provisional Central Committee)
Communist Workers Organisation
International Socialist League
Independent Working Class Association
World Revolution
Solidarity Federation
Workers' Fight
Groups working within Labour Party[edit]
Further information: Left Unity (UK)
Alliance for Workers Liberty
Left Unity
Socialist Resistance
Entryist groups within Labour Party[edit]
Further information: Entryism
Socialist Action
Socialist Appeal
Workers Power
International league of Trottosocialists.
Peoples front of Judea
Popular front of Judea
Judean Liberation Front
Judean Peoples Front (Splitters)0 -
My thinking exactly.Morris_Dancer said:Incidentally, the secret ballot can swing both ways.
Imagine you're on the NEC. If Corbyn wins, no reprisals. If he loses, people will wonder who voted this way or that. Which situation would make you feel more comfortable, in terms of personal safety?
0 -
Nice, a scablist...rottenborough said:
Probably not helped by this:Pro_Rata said:
If NEC splits 17-15 against Corbyn on the ballot, I guess assumptions will be made.Morris_Dancer said:Incidentally, the secret ballot can swing both ways.
Imagine you're on the NEC. If Corbyn wins, no reprisals. If he loses, people will wonder who voted this way or that. Which situation would make you feel more comfortable, in terms of personal safety?
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1niEjEpfyU8ksQ0ETYMZY6cocJjS0icd3h-e39WUSQ8Q/htmlview?usp=sharing&pref=2&pli=1&sle=true0 -
It is a single track back country branch line, so hopefully the trains were not heavily loaded.Paul_Bedfordshire said:At least twenty dead in this italian train crash I see. Apparently both units were four carriage. The front two of one and the front carriage of the other have been obliterated.
I fear that, unless the trains were very lightly loaded there may be worse news to follow.0 -
Still think Corbyn should simply dissolve the council permanently.0
-
Well, as I stated in my previous post Labour will still be a party which believes in parliamentary democracy. They won't be taken over by militant Leftists. Labour will still at some stage be able to win GEs again. If Corbyn stays, Labour will be taken over by the militant Left and will totally dead as a political force for decades, perhaps forever.Danny565 said:
Why on earth would the party do better under Angela Eagle than it would under Corbyn?The_Apocalypse said:
It's not about being naive, it's the truth. Angela Eagle is being put forward at this stage not because she'll win a GE but because at least under her the Labour party will SURVIVE. The Labour party as we know it will still be one committed to gaining power through parliamentary democracy. That will NOT be the case if Corbyn's leadership continues. As I stressed before in previous posts, this is no longer about even winning the next GE anymore. This is about the SURVIVAL of a political party. Cameroonian Tories also supported the Remain campaign: that does not mean they do not care about the Tories' electability. Indeed for a long period, it looked as though Remain would win. The PLP are not trying to split the party - they are trying to avoid splitting Labour by getting rid of Corbyn. If Corbyn stays on that is what will cause a split.Danny565 said:I might've agreed the PLP had good intentions a while ago (after all, I voted for one of the PLP's own in a leadership election just a year ago), but I'm not that naive anymore.
If the PLP were really concerned about getting Labour elected, they would not be calling for Labour to base their strategy on the main planks of the Remain Campaign, they would not be pushing forward a complete charisma vacuum like Angela Eagle who will NEVER be seen as a potential PM by the public, and they would not be trying to actively split the party as much as they are now. They are only concerned with their own ideological purity, as much as the hard left is.
This is not about 'ideological purity'. If that was the case, a cross section of PLP with various different views that depart from the so-called 'centre-ground' would not want Corbyn gone.0 -
True, but these are people who have fought their way up close to the top of the Labour party (aka machine politics central) that we are talking about, not members of the village parish council.SouthamObserver said:
My thinking exactly.Morris_Dancer said:Incidentally, the secret ballot can swing both ways.
Imagine you're on the NEC. If Corbyn wins, no reprisals. If he loses, people will wonder who voted this way or that. Which situation would make you feel more comfortable, in terms of personal safety?0 -
I've not played the Labour leadership market. I should do well tomorrow on the PM market (~£200), got paid a decent sum on Tory leader already (~£600). If Corbyn goes then I'll play the next Labour leadership market as they won't have to deal with crazy rules and entryists. If there is a 2016 election then I'll get a very nice payday as I got on the 16/1.Pulpstar said:
I value my Lab leadership book @ ~ £280 right now,MaxPB said:
I get the feeling you've played all of the leader markets very poorly.Pulpstar said:
18 Nandy
2.7 Watson
-7.1 D Miliband
1.8 Benn
10 McDonnell
1.5 Jarvis
5.7 Smith
0.2 Eagle
2 Other
10.5 Lewis
3.7 Ed Miliband
0.1 Chuka
0.1 Burnham
How is yours going ?0 -
I've had such a busy first half of 2016 that my Cowley & Kavanagh General Election of 2015 book has sat on my bookshelf largely untouched since I ordered it in January, and I'm not sure I'm going to bother reading it now - so much has changed, it seems hardly worth bothering...!PlatoSaid said:Morris_Dancer said:Politics in the last few weeks has been like watching 10 box sets of 20 episode-long series in a fortnight.
0 -
I've been on the west coast of the US since the Brexit vote and have got used to waking up each day to a huge quantity of big political news to catch up with. Today's NEC shenanigans seem like an uneventful day in comparison with the last couple of weeks.Morris_Dancer said:Politics in the last few weeks has been like watching 10 box sets of 20 episode-long series in a fortnight.
0 -
Join the club. Yesterday was a total shocker!williamglenn said:
I've been on the west coast of the US since the Brexit vote and have got used to waking up each day to a huge quantity of big political news to catch up with. Today's NEC shenanigans seem like an uneventful day in comparison with the last couple of weeks.Morris_Dancer said:Politics in the last few weeks has been like watching 10 box sets of 20 episode-long series in a fortnight.
0 -
You have to change the MPs to represent the members views. It will take a while but it's the only way.DavidL said:I tend to agree with those who think the rules do not require the person being challenged, that is the incumbent, to be nominated but ffs, how can you possibly lead the party in Parliament when 3/4 have already passed a no confidence motion in you and 50 are not prepared to back you? This is through the looking glass, it really is.
0 -
It is only early evening here, plenty more from NEC to come.williamglenn said:
I've been on the west coast of the US since the Brexit vote and have got used to waking up each day to a huge quantity of big political news to catch up with. Today's NEC shenanigans seem like an uneventful day in comparison with the last couple of weeks.Morris_Dancer said:Politics in the last few weeks has been like watching 10 box sets of 20 episode-long series in a fortnight.
0 -
I think my net profit was about a hundred 50 quid on the Tories after all said and done (And next PM). As you say, poorly played - nowhere near my Trump book - can't win them all though.MaxPB said:
I've not played the Labour leadership market. I should do well tomorrow on the PM market (~£200), got paid a decent sum on Tory leader already. If Corbyn goes then I'll play the next Labour leadership market as they won't have to deal with crazy rules and entryists.Pulpstar said:
I value my Lab leadership book @ ~ £280 right now,MaxPB said:
I get the feeling you've played all of the leader markets very poorly.Pulpstar said:
18 Nandy
2.7 Watson
-7.1 D Miliband
1.8 Benn
10 McDonnell
1.5 Jarvis
5.7 Smith
0.2 Eagle
2 Other
10.5 Lewis
3.7 Ed Miliband
0.1 Chuka
0.1 Burnham
How is yours going ?0 -
I thought that anyone who has been legally resident in the UK for 5 years has the right to apply for a right to remain (and six years for citizenship).Scott_P said:@DannyShawBBC: This is significant: @JBrokenshire says it would be "virtually impossible" to remove EU citizens who've been in the UK for at least 5 years
So if Brexit is effective from 31 December 2018 say, anyone arriving in the UK from before 2014 would be able to remain?0 -
So, suppose the NEC says Corbyn can't stand without nomination, which he won't get. Someone else gets elected. Corbyn takes the NEC to court but presumably that will drag on for months. Replacement well bedded in. Court eventually says rules are clear: no nominations are needed, therefore election invalid.
What happens then?0 -
These are just assertions, without any reasoning to support them. WHY would Eagle mean Labour would at some stage be able to win GEs again? WHY would she win more seats in an election than Corbyn? She has less charisma than Corbyn, seems less of a plausible PM, is more of a hated "career politician" - once again, the Remain campaign being rejected in the Labour heartlands shows how successful she would be.The_Apocalypse said:
Well, as I stated in my previous post Labour will still be a party which believes in parliamentary democracy. They won't be taken over by militant Leftists. Labour will still at some stage be able to win GEs again. If Corbyn stays, Labour will be taken over by the militant Left and will totally dead as a political force for decades, perhaps forever.Danny565 said:
Why on earth would the party do better under Angela Eagle than it would under Corbyn?The_Apocalypse said:
It's not about being naive, it's the truth. Angela Eagle is being put forward at this stage not because she'll win a GE but because at least under her the Labour party will SURVIVE. The Labour party as we know it will still be one committed to gaining power through parliamentary democracy. That will NOT be the case if Corbyn's leadership continues. As I stressed before in previous posts, this is no longer about even winning the next GE anymore. This is about the SURVIVAL of a political party. Cameroonian Tories also supported the Remain campaign: that does not mean they do not care about the Tories' electability. Indeed for a long period, it looked as though Remain would win. The PLP are not trying to split the party - they are trying to avoid splitting Labour by getting rid of Corbyn. If Corbyn stays on that is what will cause a split.Danny565 said:I might've agreed the PLP had good intentions a while ago (after all, I voted for one of the PLP's own in a leadership election just a year ago), but I'm not that naive anymore.
If the PLP were really concerned about getting Labour elected, they would not be calling for Labour to base their strategy on the main planks of the Remain Campaign, they would not be pushing forward a complete charisma vacuum like Angela Eagle who will NEVER be seen as a potential PM by the public, and they would not be trying to actively split the party as much as they are now. They are only concerned with their own ideological purity, as much as the hard left is.
This is not about 'ideological purity'. If that was the case, a cross section of PLP with various different views that depart from the so-called 'centre-ground' would not want Corbyn gone.0 -
Mr. Rata, Corbyn was in the room, so he'll have an idea how people voted.
Mr. Observer, and it won't be just self-interest. I imagine many NEC members are friends, and may worry voting to keep Corbyn off the ballot may lead to their friends getting into uncomfortable situations.
Could go either way. But the rules, if adhered to, do seem pretty clear that Corbyn should be on the ballot.
Edited extra bit: Mr. Glenn, give it time. This is very significant stuff.0 -
The Conservatives will see the abyss that is the current Labour party. It is literally too dangerous to play political silly buggers. Labour must not be allowed power until it has sorted itself out and returned from Planet Ideologue.ToryJim said:
Very unlikely that constructing her govt as she sees fit will of itself provoke discontent. Only people to get snarky will be those who lack self-awareness and hold a higher opinion of themselves than is justified by objective assessment!DavidL said:One problem with a radical shakeup of the cabinet that seems to be getting overlooked is Mays very small majority. She really can't afford to have a disgruntled dozen sitting on the back benches, not if she is wanting to pass any legislation anyway.
And that dozen were being organised by Osborne....0 -
I value mine about minus £160 so far, seem to have been on the wrong end of a few ramps.Pulpstar said:
I value my Lab leadership book @ ~ £280 right now,MaxPB said:
I get the feeling you've played all of the leader markets very poorly.Pulpstar said:
18 Nandy
2.7 Watson
-7.1 D Miliband
1.8 Benn
10 McDonnell
1.5 Jarvis
5.7 Smith
0.2 Eagle
2 Other
10.5 Lewis
3.7 Ed Miliband
0.1 Chuka
0.1 Burnham
How is yours going ?0 -
Pulps don't get worried if you make "only" £150... but do get worried if you're quick to label it so.Pulpstar said:
I think my net profit was about a hundred 50 quid on the Tories after all said and done (And next PM). As you say, poorly played - nowhere near my Trump book - can't win them all though.MaxPB said:
I've not played the Labour leadership market. I should do well tomorrow on the PM market (~£200), got paid a decent sum on Tory leader already. If Corbyn goes then I'll play the next Labour leadership market as they won't have to deal with crazy rules and entryists.Pulpstar said:
I value my Lab leadership book @ ~ £280 right now,MaxPB said:
I get the feeling you've played all of the leader markets very poorly.Pulpstar said:
18 Nandy
2.7 Watson
-7.1 D Miliband
1.8 Benn
10 McDonnell
1.5 Jarvis
5.7 Smith
0.2 Eagle
2 Other
10.5 Lewis
3.7 Ed Miliband
0.1 Chuka
0.1 Burnham
How is yours going ?0 -
I'd a stack of Private Eyes still in the plastic wrap.Bob__Sykes said:
I've had such a busy first half of 2016 that my Cowley & Kavanagh General Election of 2015 book has sat on my bookshelf largely untouched since I ordered it in January, and I'm not sure I'm going to bother reading it now - so much has changed, it seems hardly worth bothering...!PlatoSaid said:Morris_Dancer said:Politics in the last few weeks has been like watching 10 box sets of 20 episode-long series in a fortnight.
0 -
+1. "Labour will still at some stage be able to win GEs again" Why?? Maybe so, maybe not. I am sure a Liberal in the 1920s would have thought the same.Danny565 said:
These are just assertions, without any reasoning to support them. WHY would Eagle mean Labour would at some stage be able to win GEs again? WHY would she win more seats in an election than Corbyn? She has less charisma than Corbyn, seems less of a plausible PM, is more of a hated "career politician" - once again, the Remain campaign being rejected in the Labour heartlands shows how successful she would be.The_Apocalypse said:
Well, as I stated in my previous post Labour will still be a party which believes in parliamentary democracy. They won't be taken over by militant Leftists. Labour will still at some stage be able to win GEs again. If Corbyn stays, Labour will be taken over by the militant Left and will totally dead as a political force for decades, perhaps forever.Danny565 said:
Why on earth would the party do better under Angela Eagle than it would under Corbyn?The_Apocalypse said:
It's not about being naive, it's the truth. Angela Eagle is being put forward at this stage not because she'll win a GE but because at least under her the Labour party will SURVIVE. The Labour party as we know it will still be one committed to gaining power through parliamentary democracy. That will NOT be the case if Corbyn's leadership continues. As I stressed before in previous posts, this is no longer about even winning the next GE anymore. This is about the SURVIVAL of a political party. Cameroonian Tories also supported the Remain campaign: that does not mean they do not care about the Tories' electability. Indeed for a long period, it looked as though Remain would win. The PLP are not trying to split the party - they are trying to avoid splitting Labour by getting rid of Corbyn. If Corbyn stays on that is what will cause a split.Danny565 said:I might've agreed the PLP had good intentions a while ago (after all, I voted for one of the PLP's own in a leadership election just a year ago), but I'm not that naive anymore.
If the PLP were really concerned about getting Labour elected, they would not be calling for Labour to base their strategy on the main planks of the Remain Campaign, they would not be pushing forward a complete charisma vacuum like Angela Eagle who will NEVER be seen as a potential PM by the public, and they would not be trying to actively split the party as much as they are now. They are only concerned with their own ideological purity, as much as the hard left is.
This is not about 'ideological purity'. If that was the case, a cross section of PLP with various different views that depart from the so-called 'centre-ground' would not want Corbyn gone.0 -
Man criticises another's assertions and then makes his own...Danny565 said:
These are just assertions, without any reasoning to support them. WHY would Eagle mean Labour would at some stage be able to win GEs again? WHY would she win more seats in an election than Corbyn? She has less charisma than Corbyn, seems less of a plausible PM, is more of a hated "career politician" - once again, the Remain campaign being rejected in the Labour heartlands shows how successful she would be.The_Apocalypse said:
Well, as I stated in my previous post Labour will still be a party which believes in parliamentary democracy. They won't be taken over by militant Leftists. Labour will still at some stage be able to win GEs again. If Corbyn stays, Labour will be taken over by the militant Left and will totally dead as a political force for decades, perhaps forever.Danny565 said:
Why on earth would the party do better under Angela Eagle than it would under Corbyn?The_Apocalypse said:
It's not about being naive, it's the truth. Angela Eagle is being put forward at this stage not because she'll win a GE but because at least under her the Labour party will SURVIVE. The Labour party as we know it will still be one committed to gaining power through parliamentary democracy. That will NOT be the case if Corbyn's leadership continues. As I stressed before in previous posts, this is no longer about even winning the next GE anymore. This is about the SURVIVAL of a political party. Cameroonian Tories also supported the Remain campaign: that does not mean they do not care about the Tories' electability. Indeed for a long period, it looked as though Remain would win. The PLP are not trying to split the party - they are trying to avoid splitting Labour by getting rid of Corbyn. If Corbyn stays on that is what will cause a split.Danny565 said:I might've agreed the PLP had good intentions a while ago (after all, I voted for one of the PLP's own in a leadership election just a year ago), but I'm not that naive anymore.
If the PLP were really concerned about getting Labour elected, they would not be calling for Labour to base their strategy on the main planks of the Remain Campaign, they would not be pushing forward a complete charisma vacuum like Angela Eagle who will NEVER be seen as a potential PM by the public, and they would not be trying to actively split the party as much as they are now. They are only concerned with their own ideological purity, as much as the hard left is.
This is not about 'ideological purity'. If that was the case, a cross section of PLP with various different views that depart from the so-called 'centre-ground' would not want Corbyn gone.0 -
Theresa May's first PMQs:rottenborough said:Seems the threats of physical intimidation have made some NEC members demand a secret ballot.
A nice own goal from Momentum's hard core thugs.
"You know what some people call you – the Nasty Party."
Would be fitting.0 -
"We were the Nasty Party once"Tissue_Price said:
Theresa May's first PMQs:rottenborough said:Seems the threats of physical intimidation have made some NEC members demand a secret ballot.
A nice own goal from Momentum's hard core thugs.
"You know what some people call you – the Nasty Party."
Would be fitting. 0 -
Just checked and I got ~£600 yesterday as I laid Osborne in the leader market more than I did in the PM market, for some reason he was shorter in the leadership market for longer.Pulpstar said:
I think my net profit was about a hundred 50 quid on the Tories after all said and done (And next PM). As you say, poorly played - nowhere near my Trump book - can't win them all though.MaxPB said:
I've not played the Labour leadership market. I should do well tomorrow on the PM market (~£200), got paid a decent sum on Tory leader already. If Corbyn goes then I'll play the next Labour leadership market as they won't have to deal with crazy rules and entryists.Pulpstar said:
I value my Lab leadership book @ ~ £280 right now,MaxPB said:
I get the feeling you've played all of the leader markets very poorly.Pulpstar said:
18 Nandy
2.7 Watson
-7.1 D Miliband
1.8 Benn
10 McDonnell
1.5 Jarvis
5.7 Smith
0.2 Eagle
2 Other
10.5 Lewis
3.7 Ed Miliband
0.1 Chuka
0.1 Burnham
How is yours going ?
If Trump wins I'll collect a fair amount, my spreadsheet says I'm green on Hillary as well but in the tens rather than hundreds. Come on Trump!0 -
Corbyn should crush the rebellion with one swift strokeRobD said:Still think Corbyn should simply dissolve the council permanently.
0 -
They would probably seek an injunction against the running of the leadership election before the question was determined. That hearing would be the key. If he didn't get his interim order it is unlikely the case would proceed. If he does get it some sort of compromise is likely because the timescale would be impossible for the party to cope with.FF43 said:So, suppose the NEC says Corbyn can't stand without nomination, which he won't get. Someone else gets elected. Corbyn takes the NEC to court but presumably that will drag on for months. Replacement well bedded in. Court eventually says rules are clear: no nominations are needed, therefore election invalid.
What happens then?0 -
Yeah but you've bringing home pretty much the value of my house on Trump !gettingbetter said:
I value mine about minus £160 so far, seem to have been on the wrong end of a few ramps.Pulpstar said:
I value my Lab leadership book @ ~ £280 right now,MaxPB said:
I get the feeling you've played all of the leader markets very poorly.Pulpstar said:
18 Nandy
2.7 Watson
-7.1 D Miliband
1.8 Benn
10 McDonnell
1.5 Jarvis
5.7 Smith
0.2 Eagle
2 Other
10.5 Lewis
3.7 Ed Miliband
0.1 Chuka
0.1 Burnham
How is yours going ?0 -
Yes: sod what the voters want: democracy requires the voters are represented by people selected by the leader.Barnesian said:
You have to change the MPs to represent the members views. It will take a while but it's the only way.DavidL said:I tend to agree with those who think the rules do not require the person being challenged, that is the incumbent, to be nominated but ffs, how can you possibly lead the party in Parliament when 3/4 have already passed a no confidence motion in you and 50 are not prepared to back you? This is through the looking glass, it really is.
Sounds like criticism of Blair: with the names changed.0 -
I think the rule is the internal procedures must be exhausted before running to court. The body must be given an opportunity to correct its own errors.EdgwareJoel said:
No, it means the courts can't make judgements on contract law when the contract defines who the separate arbitration panel is for resolving disputes.RobD said:
Which implies the Courts can't make judgement on any contract law, since it is an internal matter to the contracting parties.surbiton said:
The courts will say it is the internal matter of the Labour Party. Therefore, whatever, NEC says , goes.murali_s said:
The courts will back the NEC. The storm will die down in a few months...numbertwelve said:Jezza is an unmitigated disaster for the Labour Party but I cannot read those rules in any way other than that he doesn't need to obtain signatures. This will get nasty.
Most contractees would not be stupid enough to choose a nakedly political outfit as the impartial arbitrators, but this is the Labour Party we are talking about.
The NEC has been sued several times in the past.0 -
Its more equivalent to the Sheffield - Manchester route - not full blown intercity but busy interurban, it is electrified and is so busy that it will be double tracked in a few years (doubling of part of the route is already underway with the contract to double the crash stretch not far from letting. It at least happened at 11.30 not in the middle of Rush HourIanB2 said:
It is a single track back country branch line, so hopefully the trains were not heavily loaded.Paul_Bedfordshire said:At least twenty dead in this italian train crash I see. Apparently both units were four carriage. The front two of one and the front carriage of the other have been obliterated.
I fear that, unless the trains were very lightly loaded there may be worse news to follow.
The current death rate is five persons per destroyed carriage which is very low. I fear that in the three most damaged carriages there will be little left to identify until the forensic teams get to work. Moorgate and the first coach of the Networker train at Ladbroke grove are the only accidents I can remember in recent (last 40 or so years) history that have resulted in anywhere near that level of destruction of carriages. Three carriages are basically matchwood and one is destroyed on one side.0 -
Proposals for the new constituency boundaries will be published on 13th September:
http://boundarycommissionforengland.independent.gov.uk/guide-to-the-2018-review-published/0 -
"Weak, weak.... a week is a long time in politics!"RobD said:
"We were the Nasty Party once"Tissue_Price said:
Theresa May's first PMQs:rottenborough said:Seems the threats of physical intimidation have made some NEC members demand a secret ballot.
A nice own goal from Momentum's hard core thugs.
"You know what some people call you – the Nasty Party."
Would be fitting. 0 -
I'm in the same position tooMaxPB said:
Just checked and I got ~£600 yesterday as I laid Osborne in the leader market more than I did in the PM market, for some reason he was shorter in the leadership market for longer.Pulpstar said:
I think my net profit was about a hundred 50 quid on the Tories after all said and done (And next PM). As you say, poorly played - nowhere near my Trump book - can't win them all though.MaxPB said:
I've not played the Labour leadership market. I should do well tomorrow on the PM market (~£200), got paid a decent sum on Tory leader already. If Corbyn goes then I'll play the next Labour leadership market as they won't have to deal with crazy rules and entryists.Pulpstar said:
I value my Lab leadership book @ ~ £280 right now,MaxPB said:
I get the feeling you've played all of the leader markets very poorly.Pulpstar said:
18 Nandy
2.7 Watson
-7.1 D Miliband
1.8 Benn
10 McDonnell
1.5 Jarvis
5.7 Smith
0.2 Eagle
2 Other
10.5 Lewis
3.7 Ed Miliband
0.1 Chuka
0.1 Burnham
How is yours going ?
If Trump wins I'll collect a fair amount, my spreadsheet says I'm green on Hillary as well but in the tens rather than hundreds. Come on Trump!
0 -
17-15 to hold secret ballot
Looks like plotters win round 1 to me now0 -
I think Mike Pence is too short @ evens in the VP nomination market. Yes, he is one of the firm contenders but this is Trump, who has previously demonstrated his mastery of the media.
However as a betting opportunity it is safer to conclude that if Pence is not unveiled as VP in the next week, it won't be him. The stars align for Pence this week, based on Trump's visit and his own gubernatorial contest in the 'fall'.0
