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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,587
    edited July 2016
    MaxPB said:

    On any Labour split. What happens if Democratic Labour have more seats than Labour once the split is done? Does the leader of that party sit as the official LOTO? Does Bercow rule on it?

    I take it your use of the word 'democratic' is in the "(pick a country in former east Europe)...Democratic Republic" sense?
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,587
    John_M said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Will Labour get on with the bloody vote already ?

    By all accounts, proceedings at the NEC are glacially slow – Crick reported earlier that 35 minutes into Labour NEC & members still hdn't been given party's legal advice on whether Corbyn can stand without nominations – Sparrow’s live up-dates appear comatose…!
    Can you blame them? They're sitting on a bomb debating whether to cut the red wire or the green one. Whichever they choose, the bomb goes off.
    LMAO! ++
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    TOPPING said:

    JohnO said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Danny565 said:

    MaxPB said:
    Tim Fallon's attempts to get some attention are so cute.
    Fallon ???
    It's an old PB joke - Someone misspells Tim Farron's name as "Tim Fallon" and then another person replies 'Who'
    Don't you mean Michael Farron?
    So who exactly has resigned?
    Charley Falconer.
    Where does this joke come from? Sorry. I'm new here.
  • Options
    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388
    edited July 2016

    TOPPING said:

    JohnO said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Danny565 said:

    MaxPB said:
    Tim Fallon's attempts to get some attention are so cute.
    Fallon ???
    It's an old PB joke - Someone misspells Tim Farron's name as "Tim Fallon" and then another person replies 'Who'
    Don't you mean Michael Farron?
    So who exactly has resigned?
    Charley Falconer.
    Where does this joke come from? Sorry. I'm new here.
    Any time anything happens, Charlie Faulkner resigns.

    His resignation was (accidentally) re-reported, plus so few people have heard of him every time anyone says he has resigned something thinks it's for real (well, it is, in the sense he is long gone).
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,031
    Mr. Observer, Labour had a majority about four or five times larger with a lower share of the vote in 2005.

    Nobody complained about it then (Lib Dems excepted, but they've always been mad for PR).
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    John_M said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Will Labour get on with the bloody vote already ?

    By all accounts, proceedings at the NEC are glacially slow – Crick reported earlier that 35 minutes into Labour NEC & members still hdn't been given party's legal advice on whether Corbyn can stand without nominations – Sparrow’s live up-dates appear comatose…!
    Can you blame them? They're sitting on a bomb debating whether to cut the red wire or the green one. Whichever they choose, the bomb goes off.
    Not really - but if it need be done, the best it be done quick.
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    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,215
    edited July 2016

    JohnO said:

    MaxPB said:

    Just wait until Theresa May makes Michael Fallon the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

    He's eminently qualified for the role.

    What price did you get on that?
    Still available at 33/1
    What are the odds on Grayling as Brexit Minister?
    Don't think there's a market up for that.

    Only next Chancellor, Home Secretary, and Foreign Secretary markets, courtesy of Shadsy
    OK, thanks and have sent you an e-mail about yesterday's speculation.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,987
    eek said:

    That's a very good piece, Cyclefree (and congrats for your son too). There are several separate thoughts there, all worth discussing. The immediately relevant one is the one I've been banging on about for weeks:

    ---------
    Until the necessary hard thinking is done about what Labour, about what any left of centre party is for, there is little point in Labour thrashing around to find the latest vaguely presentable MP to act as an alternative to Corbyn. Corbyn has an idea about what Labour should be and think. Any alternative needs to have an idea about what Labour should be and think, something more than “not Corbyn”.
    ---------
    Exactly.

    On globalisation, as soon as it started to happen, I thought "this is going to change our world and all our assumptions of permanently rising prosperity for all in the West" and so it's proved. The first party to identify some real responses to that will be in power for a long time, deserrvedly.

    In my opinion, it can only be addressed at a larger scale than single states. Perhaps we should join the EU...

    Not Corbyn = Labour being a party that wants to govern. There is no point in having great ideas if you are not in a position to put them into place. In a parliamentary democracy that means winning elections. There is no Labour politician who could deliver Labour a victory at the next GE, but there are plenty who could ensure that Labour remains a party serious about contesting and winning general elections. Corbyn is not one of them because he does not believe in Parliament as a vehicle for change. That is his problem. Not his policies.

    Not Corbyn is not an end point, its just a starting point which hopefully stops the poison spreading to the rest of the party....

    After that Labour needs to work out both who its targeting and how to target them. For the last 30 years Labour has usually perceived itself as "Not the Tory" party. That worked in a 2 party country where your core audience hated the Tories more than anything else... It doesn't work now and it didn't work in Scotland as soon as a second party that didn't begin with C appeared....

    Yes, I completely agree. Labour is in the position it is in today because it has been lazy, complacent, incompetent and intellectually vacuous. The only good argument I can think of for it not splitting is the electoral system. But even that is not a great. If Corbyn is re-elected, the members will have decided that Labour is no longer a party focused on securing power through Parliament. That has to be a red line for anyone serious on the centre left.
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388
    Laura Kuenssberg sets out the expected Cabinet changes:

    "There is a consensus that Philip Hammond, the foreign secretary, will become the chancellor, doing what might be one of the most powerful job swaps in the land with George Osborne.

    After too long in the Treasury bunker, most people expect him to be moved out. Chris Grayling is likely to head up the negotiations over us leaving the EU, in charge at whatever ministry is created to mastermind that process.

    As a prominent Eurosceptic who didn't get down in the gutter in the campaign, he is likely to rise, having run Theresa May's short campaign too.

    James Brokenshire, Theresa May's long-serving Home Office minister, is likely to be put in charge at that department - not a bad reward for years of having to defend the government's struggling immigration policy at the despatch box.

    Stephen Crabb is likely to be left where he is, John Whittingdale might be moved out of the culture brief, potentially to be replaced with Damian Green, a Europhile who was also part of May's campaign team.

    Priti Patel and Justine Greening are likely to be moved up, Nicky Morgan to be moved out, Amber Rudd and Sajid Javid both thought to be likely to stay where they are."

    To what extent, and in what respects, she is wrong will be a useful measurement of sentiment.
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Just like Andrea Leadsom did...

    Get over it, you won.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,987

    Mr. Observer, Labour had a majority about four or five times larger with a lower share of the vote in 2005.

    Nobody complained about it then (Lib Dems excepted, but they've always been mad for PR).

    I did. I thought it was outrageous. Defenders of FPTP are very free to defend it, but please no crocodile tears about the importance of listening to the voices of ordinary voters in forgotten, left behind parts of the country.

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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Scott_P said:

    Dadge said:

    the government needs to nail its colours to the mast.

    Just like Andrea Leadsom did...
    Anyone running a book as to whether Scott can get through 24hrs without posting the word "B****teer" ?

    On a knife edge..
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,726
    JohnO said:

    JohnO said:

    MaxPB said:

    Just wait until Theresa May makes Michael Fallon the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

    He's eminently qualified for the role.

    What price did you get on that?
    Still available at 33/1
    What are the odds on Grayling as Brexit Minister?
    Don't think there's a market up for that.

    Only next Chancellor, Home Secretary, and Foreign Secretary markets, courtesy of Shadsy
    OK, thanks and have sent you an e-mail about yesterday's speculation.
    Ta.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,679

    The first test for May will be the Osborne test. Quite how far away from the epicentre of British political life that particular ball of incompetent malevolence gets booted will be extremely telling.

    Impress me Theresa!

    Expect a new role in Export and Trade Missions
    I do hope you're right, though I can't see him persuading me to buy many Landrovers.
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    AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869
    Excellent thread header, @Cyclefree. Many thanks.

    Good afternoon, everybody.
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,125
    TOPPING said:

    JohnO said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Danny565 said:

    MaxPB said:
    Tim Fallon's attempts to get some attention are so cute.
    Fallon ???
    It's an old PB joke - Someone misspells Tim Farron's name as "Tim Fallon" and then another person replies 'Who'
    Don't you mean Michael Farron?
    So who exactly has resigned?
    Charlie Fallconer - leader of the LDs :)
  • Options
    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,739
    TGOHF said:

    Scott_P said:

    Dadge said:

    the government needs to nail its colours to the mast.

    Just like Andrea Leadsom did...
    Anyone running a book as to whether Scott can get through 24hrs without posting the word "B****teer" ?

    On a knife edge..
    oh, is it a swearword now ;-)
  • Options
    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,215

    Laura Kuenssberg sets out the expected Cabinet changes:

    "There is a consensus that Philip Hammond, the foreign secretary, will become the chancellor, doing what might be one of the most powerful job swaps in the land with George Osborne.

    After too long in the Treasury bunker, most people expect him to be moved out. Chris Grayling is likely to head up the negotiations over us leaving the EU, in charge at whatever ministry is created to mastermind that process.

    As a prominent Eurosceptic who didn't get down in the gutter in the campaign, he is likely to rise, having run Theresa May's short campaign too.

    James Brokenshire, Theresa May's long-serving Home Office minister, is likely to be put in charge at that department - not a bad reward for years of having to defend the government's struggling immigration policy at the despatch box.

    Stephen Crabb is likely to be left where he is, John Whittingdale might be moved out of the culture brief, potentially to be replaced with Damian Green, a Europhile who was also part of May's campaign team.

    Priti Patel and Justine Greening are likely to be moved up, Nicky Morgan to be moved out, Amber Rudd and Sajid Javid both thought to be likely to stay where they are."

    To what extent, and in what respects, she is wrong will be a useful measurement of sentiment.

    That would be a most acceptable line-up.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,031
    Mr. Observer, Morris Dancers don't cry. We're far too manly for that sort of thing.
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388
    "The North East's UKIP MEP Jonathan Arnott has announced his candidacy for the leadership of the party."

    Not sure you can get odds anywhere?
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    PeterMannionPeterMannion Posts: 712
    "Nicky Morgan to be moved out"

    Good move, if true...
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    TGOHF said:

    Scott_P said:

    Dadge said:

    the government needs to nail its colours to the mast.

    Just like Andrea Leadsom did...
    Anyone running a book as to whether Scott can get through 24hrs without posting the word "B****teer" ?

    On a knife edge..
    oh, is it a swearword now ;-)
    File under "Verboten" :D
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    LadyBucketLadyBucket Posts: 590
    Ruth Davidson needs to take a leaf out of Theresa May's book and act with a little more dignity. All these remarks will come back to haunt her, should she ever become PM.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,987

    felix said:


    Precisely this. Anyone talking about listening to ordinary people in left-behind towns who then continues to advocate FPTP is a hypocrite. It's really as simple as that. And, yes, I include all Labour supporters, MPs and ex-ministers in that.

    And yet the same feelings exist in almost every country in the developed world regardless of the electoral system. It has to be deeper than that.
    Giveplaces.

    Do I think that an alternative to FPTP could improve voter engagement? Yes. Do I think it will cure the problem of the divide between our political class and a huge chunk of the electorate? Nope.

    But opposition.

    That's a good point and is one of the many reasons I dislike FPTP. But I don't think it addresses Felix's excellent point. Changes to the voting system can produce structural changes in British politics, sure. But I don't think those changes will succeed in significantly narrowing The Gap, or quieting The Howling Across The Gap. Each in their own way, this Howling is basically what Trump and the Euroref and Le Pen and 5 Star and the AFD and Podemos and a myriad others across the western world have been about. I'd probably even include the Cleggasm in that, and the toxic fallout when the electorate twigged "wait, he's just one of Them too" rather reinforces that for me.

    Like Nick Palmer, I think it's likely the deeper issue ultimately arises from the economic and cultural forces of globalisation, though unlike Nick I don't think the EU provides much by way of an answer.

    Yep I agree - changing the voting system is a start, nothing more.

    It's worth remembering that there is more wealth in the world than there has ever been before. The richest individuals and corporations hoard money offshore that they can never hope to spend. There are solutions to the issues that Cyclefree so powerfully identifies and some of them involve countries working together. That may not be via the EU, but it will need close cooperation.

    If, that is, we really do want to solve these issues. It's also worth remembering that a lot of Leave votes came from pensioners who have been very well looked after over recent years, from wealthy libertarians and other prosperous folk. Most people are doing OK in the UK. Do they actually want to give stuff up so that others who are not dong so well might do better?

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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''That would be a most acceptable line-up.''

    A fresh start. Not.
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    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    TGOHF said:

    Scott_P said:

    Dadge said:

    the government needs to nail its colours to the mast.

    Just like Andrea Leadsom did...
    Anyone running a book as to whether Scott can get through 24hrs without posting the word "B****teer" ?

    On a knife edge..
    oh, is it a swearword now ;-)
    We're all Keynsian Brexiteers now, comrade. Chairman May has said so.
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,623
    TGOHF said:

    Scott_P said:

    Dadge said:

    the government needs to nail its colours to the mast.

    Just like Andrea Leadsom did...
    Anyone running a book as to whether Scott can get through 24hrs without posting the word "B****teer" ?

    On a knife edge..
    Brexiteers, stand by...

    3...

    2...

    1...

    NEGOTIATE!
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    nunununu Posts: 6,024

    Mr. Nunu, whilst I do think the projections of doom point generally is valid, it's worth pointing out that, now, the much diminished oil price is a matter of fact, not a prophecy.

    Good point. Plus the pound did plunge, a much bigger U.K can deal with that. But a newly independent Scotland would be unlikely to shrug off a big fall in their new currency.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,587
    Crick says Lab NEC heading for an evening finish
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,679
    taffys said:

    ''That would be a most acceptable line-up.''

    A fresh start. Not.

    When even the cheerleaders can't muster up a superlative, we know things are looking bleak.

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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,726
    JohnO said:

    Laura Kuenssberg sets out the expected Cabinet changes:

    "There is a consensus that Philip Hammond, the foreign secretary, will become the chancellor, doing what might be one of the most powerful job swaps in the land with George Osborne.

    After too long in the Treasury bunker, most people expect him to be moved out. Chris Grayling is likely to head up the negotiations over us leaving the EU, in charge at whatever ministry is created to mastermind that process.

    As a prominent Eurosceptic who didn't get down in the gutter in the campaign, he is likely to rise, having run Theresa May's short campaign too.

    James Brokenshire, Theresa May's long-serving Home Office minister, is likely to be put in charge at that department - not a bad reward for years of having to defend the government's struggling immigration policy at the despatch box.

    Stephen Crabb is likely to be left where he is, John Whittingdale might be moved out of the culture brief, potentially to be replaced with Damian Green, a Europhile who was also part of May's campaign team.

    Priti Patel and Justine Greening are likely to be moved up, Nicky Morgan to be moved out, Amber Rudd and Sajid Javid both thought to be likely to stay where they are."

    To what extent, and in what respects, she is wrong will be a useful measurement of sentiment.

    That would be a most acceptable line-up.
    Agreed. Though there maybe a few seething if James Brokenshire becomes Home Secretary so rapidly.

    Up there with Lady Thatcher promoting David Waddington as Home Secretary from Chief Whip
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    felix said:

    And yet the same feelings exist in almost every country in the developed world regardless of the electoral system. It has to be deeper than that.

    Precisely. Blaming the problem on FPTP is complete tosh. Anyone who thinks the electoral system is the problem really, really ought to study Irish politics for a bit.

    In any case, people are looking at this the wrong way round. The issue isn't that governments don't understand the problems or inequality and the effect of globalisation, it's that there aren't any easy solutions. What makes it worse is that the things which would help in the medium to long term are often politically difficult or impossible in the short term.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,987
    JohnO said:

    Laura Kuenssberg sets out the expected Cabinet changes:

    "There is a consensus that Philip Hammond, the foreign secretary, will become the chancellor, doing what might be one of the most powerful job swaps in the land with George Osborne.

    After too long in the Treasury bunker, most people expect him to be moved out. Chris Grayling is likely to head up the negotiations over us leaving the EU, in charge at whatever ministry is created to mastermind that process.

    As a prominent Eurosceptic who didn't get down in the gutter in the campaign, he is likely to rise, having run Theresa May's short campaign too.

    James Brokenshire, Theresa May's long-serving Home Office minister, is likely to be put in charge at that department - not a bad reward for years of having to defend the government's struggling immigration policy at the despatch box.

    Stephen Crabb is likely to be left where he is, John Whittingdale might be moved out of the culture brief, potentially to be replaced with Damian Green, a Europhile who was also part of May's campaign team.

    Priti Patel and Justine Greening are likely to be moved up, Nicky Morgan to be moved out, Amber Rudd and Sajid Javid both thought to be likely to stay where they are."

    To what extent, and in what respects, she is wrong will be a useful measurement of sentiment.

    That would be a most acceptable line-up.

    Damian Green would be a highly significant appointment. He is very pro-BBC.

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    LadyBucketLadyBucket Posts: 590
    I hope Theresa May has a bloody clear out of No 10 and the Treasury. I suspect she will, as they have briefed against her for years, especially George's gang.

    I would love to see George Osborne on the backbenches, he deserves to be taught a lesson.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @LOS_Fisher: Confirmed: secret ballot at Labour's NEC on whether Corbyn should be on ballot paper. This is going to come down to a knife edge vote.
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited July 2016
    G-live: Veteran MP Dennis Skinner, as he entered the the building, compared Labour MPs seeking to depose Corbyn to the “UDM” - the breakaway miners’ union which was set up to rival the National Union of Mineworkers.

    The meeting is taking place on the 8th floor of the office building known as Southside which is half a mile from the Houses of Parliament. The building has been nicknamed “the Darkside” by Corbynistas who believe that it is occupied and controlled by friends of the Parliamentary party.

    Blimey, it’s as though ‘the thick of it’ never left our screens.
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    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    felix said:


    Precisely this. Anyone talking about listening to ordinary people in left-behind towns who then continues to advocate FPTP is a hypocrite. It's really as simple as that. And, yes, I include all Labour supporters, MPs and ex-ministers in that.

    And yet the same feelings exist in almost every country in the developed world regardless of the electoral system. It has to be deeper than that.
    Giveplaces.

    Do I think that an alternative to FPTP could improve voter engagement? Yes. Do I think it will cure the problem of the divide between our political class and a huge chunk of the electorate? Nope.

    But opposition.

    That's a good point and is one of the many reasons I dislike FPTP. But I don't think it addresses Felix's excellent point. Changes to the voting system can produce structural changes in British politics, sure. But I don't think those changes will succeed in significantly narrowing The Gap, or quieting The Howling Across The Gap. Each in their own way, this Howling is basically what Trump and the Euroref and Le Pen and 5 Star and the AFD and Podemos and a myriad others across the western world have been about. I'd probably even include the Cleggasm in that, and the toxic fallout when the electorate twigged "wait, he's just one of Them too" rather reinforces that for me.

    Like Nick Palmer, I think it's likely the deeper issue ultimately arises from the economic and cultural forces of globalisation, though unlike Nick I don't think the EU provides much by way of an answer.

    Yep I agree - changing the voting system is a start, nothing more.

    It's worth remembering that there is more wealth in the world than there has ever been before. The richest individuals and corporations hoard money offshore that they can never hope to spend. There are solutions to the issues that Cyclefree so powerfully identifies and some of them involve countries working together. That may not be via the EU, but it will need close cooperation.

    If, that is, we really do want to solve these issues. It's also worth remembering that a lot of Leave votes came from pensioners who have been very well looked after over recent years, from wealthy libertarians and other prosperous folk. Most people are doing OK in the UK. Do they actually want to give stuff up so that others who are not dong so well might do better?

    I can only speak for myself, but yes. My cohort are the very trailing edge of the boomers. We have had every advantage in life. Time to pay some of it back.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    I hope Theresa May has a bloody clear out of No 10 and the Treasury. I suspect she will, as they have briefed against her for years, especially George's gang.

    I would love to see George Osborne on the backbenches, he deserves to be taught a lesson.

    Not sure Hammond is the answer.
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    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,215
    taffys said:

    ''That would be a most acceptable line-up.''

    A fresh start. Not.

    My dear fellow resident, I fear our political paths have diverged markedly: I blame the Thames Ditton and Weston Green plague for your alarming descent into the farther fringes.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,872

    TGOHF said:

    Scott_P said:

    Dadge said:

    the government needs to nail its colours to the mast.

    Just like Andrea Leadsom did...
    Anyone running a book as to whether Scott can get through 24hrs without posting the word "B****teer" ?

    On a knife edge..
    oh, is it a swearword now ;-)
    Funny....it used to be a badge of honour.......but then they all ran away.....

    All gone, all gone, all gone. All those Tory Brexiteers, gone, gone, gone. A merry, plucky, shameless band, who scaled the heights of the greasy pole, surveyed the view, blanched and threw themselves off. First Boris Johnson, wobbling with vertigo, then shoved from the platform by Michael Gove. Then Mr Gove himself, somehow unable to balance on his own. And now, finally, Andrea Leadsom; a woman who had simply never before climbed so high, didn’t have the coat for it and couldn’t stand the weather

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/andrea-leadsoms-demise-signals-the-end-of-the-nasty-party-h3k3nbwsz?shareToken=f07be91cd860fc1b5e8cd829bf19c2ac
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    LennonLennon Posts: 1,739
    IanB2 said:

    Crick says Lab NEC heading for an evening finish

    Does he say which evening?
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Agreed. Though there maybe a few seething if James Brokenshire becomes Home Secretary so rapidly.

    Up there with Lady Thatcher promoting David Waddington as Home Secretary from Chief Whip

    He was the one sent out to defend the position that May would stand up for expats.

    Did sterling work
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    numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 5,547
    Scott_P said:

    @LOS_Fisher: Confirmed: secret ballot at Labour's NEC on whether Corbyn should be on ballot paper. This is going to come down to a knife edge vote.

    Popcorn at the ready
  • Options
    DanSmithDanSmith Posts: 1,215
    Lucy FisherVerified account
    @LOS_Fisher
    Confirmed: secret ballot at Labour's NEC on whether Corbyn should be on ballot paper. This is going to come down to a knife edge vote.
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    LadyBucketLadyBucket Posts: 590

    Lowlander said:

    Blimey, hadn't seen Ruth's postscript to that Johnson gag:
    https://twitter.com/stvharry/status/752870455866949632

    Ruth has always been pretty colourful with her language, I guess this is just the first time it's getting reported down south.

    She is the Roy Chubby Brown of Scottish politics.
    Sounds like a woman starting to believe her own hype.
    Couldn't agree more, hence my comments above. We don't need a Scottish Angela Eagle.

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    felixfelix Posts: 15,125
    edited July 2016

    Cyclefree said:

    felix said:

    DavidL said:

    Alasdair said:

    Another great piece from Cyclefree.

    I wll probably be abused for asking this, but the political conversation need to involve everyone; not just the voters in marginal seats.

    Do we need a form of PR so that the opinions of the inhabitants of the rotten boroughs count? I rather think we do.

    Yes to AV!!

    Actually I agree with you but cant see how it ever comes about
    The 1.5m who voted in the referendum because they realised their vote counted for once are an unanswerable argument for voting reform. If politics is to be for all the people all the people need to have a meaningful say.

    Precisely this. Anyone talking about listening to ordinary people in left-behind towns who then continues to advocate FPTP is a hypocrite. It's really as simple as that. And, yes, I include all Labour supporters, MPs and ex-ministers in that.

    And yet the same feelings exist in almost every country in the developed world regardless of the electoral system. It has to be deeper than that.
    Give me multi-member STV any day - but your observation is accurate and astute. People seeking peculiarly British causes for a phenomenon that spreads far beyond these shores seem to me to be looking in the wrong places.

    Do I think that an alternative to FPTP could improve voter engagement? Yes. Do I think it will cure the problem of the divide between our political class and a huge chunk of the electorate? Nope.
    I don't think that the voting system is the sole cause of the issues. I was just saying that the referendum and how it brought people out to vote had made me look again at the whole issue of PR.

    What is happening in Britain is happening elsewhere. The economic/political system we have had for the last 30 years or so has worked for some but not worked for many and the many are now making their feelings known.

    You get to govern with 37% of the vote in the UK. That is not a system that is working for the many.

    Would it be so different with PR - a coalition of 5% here 20% there, etc. Spain is heading to it's 3rd GE as I write and Italy???? I also have concerns when the 'dispossessed' suddenly all become 'victims' of the rapacious and greedy rich folk down south. I'm from the w/c NE of England. My entire extended family over at least 4 generations through good and bad times have always had jobs, paid taxes and sacrificed for their children. Others we knew opted for the dole, fags and beer. Sometimes it's just the choices people make.
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    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,739
    IanB2 said:

    John_M said:

    Pauly said:

    IanB2 said:
    I can't believe how shamelessly they disassociate with their fixed term legislation, quite cynical.
    As I understand it, the FTPA was essentially a practical measure to preserve the coalition. It was meant to stop the Tories getting frisky and cutting the Lib Dems loose mid-term.

    Post-coalition, I struggle to see its utility, particularly given that a simple majority on a NCM is enough for an election.
    Exactly. Yes, there are arguments about certainty and stability, and not having the third/fourth year of a government destabilised by all the "will he, won't he" speculation we used to endure. But the bottom line is that you cannot be junior partner in a coalition if your senior partner's PM has sole discretion to dissolve the arrangement and go for an election as soon as s/he thinks the planets are best aligned.

    The coalition endured for its full term and history will probably put it right up there amongst the best governments of recent history. The FTPA was a key part in making it happen. But its relevance to the current government with a new PM and narrow majority is clearly questionable.
    Is it better to know when the election will be or to have the timing in the gift of one person?
    That person, the PM, can play silly buggers like Callaghan did or to use it for political advantage as most of the others did.
    On balance I think that it is better to have the FTPA because it does provide more stability and certainty and because coalitions are possible in the future. If parliament as a whole wishes to override it there are mechanisms for that to occur.
  • Options
    madasafishmadasafish Posts: 659
    taffys said:

    ''What is happening in Britain is happening elsewhere. The economic/political system we have had for the last 30 years or so has worked for some but not worked for many and the many are now making their feelings known. ''

    I get the feeling we are closer to the start of this than the end.

    Just wait till automation destroys many more semi clerical jobs. It is coming..

    As for globalisation , it cannot be stopped. Nor can automation..

    Of course, if you want to work in a car industry making cars manually at 1960s wage levels, you can... because that is the alternative. But no-one will buy your cars because cars built by robots are better,- consistent quality etc.

    China has undermined cheap manufacturing in the West. Its sellers are now undermining UK shops and wholesellers. Why spend £50 for a product in the UK when you can buy direct from the maker for 25% of the price.?

    We are fast approaching a time when those without key skills will be unemployable unless they are prepared to work in agriculture or the care industries.. These are labour intensive..

    The UK welfare system will not survive not will the NHS..

  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,872

    JohnO said:

    Laura Kuenssberg sets out the expected Cabinet changes:

    "There is a consensus that Philip Hammond, the foreign secretary, will become the chancellor, doing what might be one of the most powerful job swaps in the land with George Osborne.

    After too long in the Treasury bunker, most people expect him to be moved out. Chris Grayling is likely to head up the negotiations over us leaving the EU, in charge at whatever ministry is created to mastermind that process.

    As a prominent Eurosceptic who didn't get down in the gutter in the campaign, he is likely to rise, having run Theresa May's short campaign too.

    James Brokenshire, Theresa May's long-serving Home Office minister, is likely to be put in charge at that department - not a bad reward for years of having to defend the government's struggling immigration policy at the despatch box.

    Stephen Crabb is likely to be left where he is, John Whittingdale might be moved out of the culture brief, potentially to be replaced with Damian Green, a Europhile who was also part of May's campaign team.

    Priti Patel and Justine Greening are likely to be moved up, Nicky Morgan to be moved out, Amber Rudd and Sajid Javid both thought to be likely to stay where they are."

    To what extent, and in what respects, she is wrong will be a useful measurement of sentiment.

    That would be a most acceptable line-up.

    Damian Green would be a highly significant appointment. He is very pro-BBC.

    And a friend of Theresa & Philip from University days.....overlooked by Cameron.....
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,726
    Labour official has emerged from party HQ at 105 Victoria St to tell reporters NEC on Corbyn leadership challenge likely to last beyond 6pm.
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,125

    Mr. Observer, Labour had a majority about four or five times larger with a lower share of the vote in 2005.

    Nobody complained about it then (Lib Dems excepted, but they've always been mad for PR).

    Quite - and look what a shambles they made of it.
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024

    Laura Kuenssberg sets out the expected Cabinet changes:

    "There is a consensus that Philip Hammond, the foreign secretary, will become the chancellor, doing what might be one of the most powerful job swaps in the land with George Osborne.

    After too long in the Treasury bunker, most people expect him to be moved out. Chris Grayling is likely to head up the negotiations over us leaving the EU, in charge at whatever ministry is created to mastermind that process.

    As a prominent Eurosceptic who didn't get down in the gutter in the campaign, he is likely to rise, having run Theresa May's short campaign too.

    James Brokenshire, Theresa May's long-serving Home Office minister, is likely to be put in charge at that department - not a bad reward for years of having to defend the government's struggling immigration policy at the despatch box.

    Stephen Crabb is likely to be left where he is, John Whittingdale might be moved out of the culture brief, potentially to be replaced with Damian Green, a Europhile who was also part of May's campaign team.

    Priti Patel and Justine Greening are likely to be moved up, Nicky Morgan to be moved out, Amber Rudd and Sajid Javid both thought to be likely to stay where they are."

    To what extent, and in what respects, she is wrong will be a useful measurement of sentiment.

    I would expect most of thast to be right. Greening to be given a promotion though I think.
  • Options
    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,739
    felix said:

    Cyclefree said:

    felix said:

    DavidL said:

    Alasdair said:

    Another great piece from Cyclefree.

    Do we need a form of PR so that the opinions of the inhabitants of the rotten boroughs count? I rather think we do.

    Yes to AV!!

    Actually I agree with you but cant see how it ever comes about
    The 1.5m who voted in the referendum because they realised their vote counted for once are an unanswerable argument for voting reform. If politics is to be for all the people all the people need to have a meaningful say.

    Precisely this. Anyone talking about listening to ordinary people in left-behind towns who then continues to advocate FPTP is a hypocrite. It's really as simple as that. And, yes, I include all Labour supporters, MPs and ex-ministers in that.

    And yet the same feelings exist in almost every country in the developed world regardless of the electoral system. It has to be deeper than that.
    Give me multi-member STV any day - but your observation is accurate and astute. People seeking peculiarly British causes for a phenomenon that spreads far beyond these shores seem to me to be looking in the wrong places.

    Do I think that an alternative to FPTP could improve voter engagement? Yes. Do I think it will cure the problem of the divide between our political class and a huge chunk of the electorate? Nope.
    I don't think that the voting system is the sole cause of the issues. I was just saying that the referendum and how it brought people out to vote had made me look again at the whole issue of PR.

    What is happening in Britain is happening elsewhere. The economic/political system we have had for the last 30 years or so has worked for some but not worked for many and the many are now making their feelings known.

    You get to govern with 37% of the vote in the UK. That is not a system that is working for the many.

    Would it be so different with PR - a coalition of 5% here 20% there, etc. Spain is heading to it's 3rd GE as I write and Italy???? I also have concerns when the 'dispossessed' suddenly all become 'victims' of the rapacious and greedy rich folk down south. I'm from the w/c NE of England. My entire extended family over at least 4 generations through good and bad times have always had jobs, paid taxes and sacrificed for their children. Others we knew opted for the dole, fags and beer. Sometimes it's just the choices people make.
    The main argument for PR is that everyone's vote will count.
  • Options
    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Danny565 said:

    Rou ReynoldsVerified account ‏@RouReynolds 4h4 hours ago
    I’m no blinkered Corbynite but how on earth can anyone believe Angela Eagle offers the charisma & leadership panache that Corbyn lacks?!

    I suspect Eagle's sole purpose was to get an NEC meeting convened, which could rule on whether Corbyn can be airbrushed out of the leadership...

    If they vote Yes, and that sticks, the real contenders will emerge, and Eagle will wing it back to Wallasey.

    If No, the split is on, and a leadership election serves no purpose.
  • Options
    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,215
    edited July 2016

    JohnO said:

    Laura Kuenssberg sets out the expected Cabinet changes:

    "There is a consensus that Philip Hammond, the foreign secretary, will become the chancellor, doing what might be one of the most powerful job swaps in the land with George Osborne.

    After too long in the Treasury bunker, most people expect him to be moved out. Chris Grayling is likely to head up the negotiations over us leaving the EU, in charge at whatever ministry is created to mastermind that process.

    As a prominent Eurosceptic who didn't get down in the gutter in the campaign, he is likely to rise, having run Theresa May's short campaign too.

    James Brokenshire, Theresa May's long-serving Home Office minister, is likely to be put in charge at that department - not a bad reward for years of having to defend the government's struggling immigration policy at the despatch box.

    Stephen Crabb is likely to be left where he is, John Whittingdale might be moved out of the culture brief, potentially to be replaced with Damian Green, a Europhile who was also part of May's campaign team.

    Priti Patel and Justine Greening are likely to be moved up, Nicky Morgan to be moved out, Amber Rudd and Sajid Javid both thought to be likely to stay where they are."

    To what extent, and in what respects, she is wrong will be a useful measurement of sentiment.

    That would be a most acceptable line-up.

    Damian Green would be a highly significant appointment. He is very pro-BBC.

    And a friend of Theresa & Philip from University days.....overlooked by Cameron.....
    Hardly....he was a Home Office Minister of State (under May) for several years.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,852
    edited July 2016
    Interesting article, The greatest tragedy of Brexit is the death of David Cameron's modernisation agenda, by Rupert Myers in the Telegraph on exactly Cycle Free's theme. This was the "Life Chances" project to:

    “use the opportunity of a strengthening economy to deliver security for working people.” Cameron clearly saw the need to tackle entrenched poverty through social action, and was planning to spend his final years in office helping the least well off through intervention and through trying to make opportunities more equal.

    Rupert Myers thinks this has been knocked for six by Brexit:

    Cameron himself won’t get the chance to implement this. Nobody will even remember that he attempted it, overshadowed as his legacy will be so completely by the referendum ... Brexit means years of government manpower diverted. The best and the brightest won’t be focusing on helping the poorest in our society, but to clambering around for trade deals. In the long run, Britain may be better off from Brexit, but there is a real risk that it will come at the expense of opportunities for the very poorest in society.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,552

    TGOHF said:

    Scott_P said:

    Dadge said:

    the government needs to nail its colours to the mast.

    Just like Andrea Leadsom did...
    Anyone running a book as to whether Scott can get through 24hrs without posting the word "B****teer" ?

    On a knife edge..
    oh, is it a swearword now ;-)
    Funny....it used to be a badge of honour.......but then they all ran away.....

    All gone, all gone, all gone. All those Tory Brexiteers, gone, gone, gone. A merry, plucky, shameless band, who scaled the heights of the greasy pole, surveyed the view, blanched and threw themselves off. First Boris Johnson, wobbling with vertigo, then shoved from the platform by Michael Gove. Then Mr Gove himself, somehow unable to balance on his own. And now, finally, Andrea Leadsom; a woman who had simply never before climbed so high, didn’t have the coat for it and couldn’t stand the weather

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/andrea-leadsoms-demise-signals-the-end-of-the-nasty-party-h3k3nbwsz?shareToken=f07be91cd860fc1b5e8cd829bf19c2ac
    Reminds me of this..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUHk2RSMCS8
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,138
    IanB2 said:

    John_M said:

    Pauly said:

    IanB2 said:
    I can't believe how shamelessly they disassociate with their fixed term legislation, quite cynical.
    As I understand it, the FTPA was essentially a practical measure to preserve the coalition. It was meant to stop the Tories getting frisky and cutting the Lib Dems loose mid-term.

    Post-coalition, I struggle to see its utility, particularly given that a simple majority on a NCM is enough for an election.
    Exactly. Yes, there are arguments about certainty and stability, and not having the third/fourth year of a government destabilised by all the "will he, won't he" speculation we used to endure. But the bottom line is that you cannot be junior partner in a coalition if your senior partner's PM has sole discretion to dissolve the arrangement and go for an election as soon as s/he thinks the planets are best aligned.

    The coalition endured for its full term and history will probably put it right up there amongst the best governments of recent history. The FTPA was a key part in making it happen. But its relevance to the current government with a new PM and narrow majority is clearly questionable.
    There is an argument that we have elected a set of MP’s and it’s down to them to sort out a government. One can speculate what might have happened if Harold Wilson had not been able to call second elections in 1966 and 1974.
  • Options
    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    The UK welfare system will not survive not will the NHS..

    Trouble is Mr Fish, we've heard the same arguments about technology destroying jobs since at least the 1970s.

    And yet there are more working in the UK now than ever.

    Are these robots self mending, self maintaining, self selling, self delivering?
  • Options
    ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    Lowlander said:

    Blimey, hadn't seen Ruth's postscript to that Johnson gag:
    https://twitter.com/stvharry/status/752870455866949632

    Ruth has always been pretty colourful with her language, I guess this is just the first time it's getting reported down south.

    She is the Roy Chubby Brown of Scottish politics.
    Sounds like a woman starting to believe her own hype.
    Couldn't agree more, hence my comments above. We don't need a Scottish Angela Eagle.

    do we need an English one?
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,125
    Lennon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Crick says Lab NEC heading for an evening finish

    Does he say which evening?
    It's all getting a bit Mornington crescent with Charlie Falconer waiting for a train to stop.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,987
    felix said:

    Cyclefree said:

    felix said:

    DavidL said:

    Alasdair said:

    Another great piece from Cyclefree.

    I wll probably be abused for asking this, but the political conversation need to involve everyone; not just the voters in marginal seats.

    Do we need a form of PR so that the opinions of the inhabitants of the rotten boroughs count? I rather think we do.

    Yes to AV!!

    Actually I agree with you but cant see how it ever comes about
    The 1.5m who voted in the referendum because they realised their vote counted for once are an unanswerable argument for voting reform. If politics is to be for all the people all the people need to have a meaningful say.

    Precisely this. Anyone talking about listening to ordinary people in left-behind towns who then continues to advocate FPTP is a hypocrite. It's really as simple as that. And, yes, I include all Labour supporters, MPs and ex-ministers in that.

    And yet the same feelings exist in almost every country in the developed world regardless of the electoral system. It has to be deeper than that.
    Give places.

    Do I electorate? Nope.
    I don't think that the voting system is the sole cause of the issues. I was just saying that the referendum and how it brought people out to vote had made me look again at the whole issue of PR.

    What is happening in Britain is happening elsewhere. The economic/political system we have had for the last 30 years or so has worked for some but not worked for many and the many are now making their feelings known.

    You get to govern with 37% of the vote in the UK. That is not a system that is working for the many.

    Would it be so different with PR - a coalition of 5% here 20% there, etc. Spain is heading to it's 3rd GE as I write and Italy???? I also have concerns when the 'dispossessed' suddenly all become 'victims' of the rapacious and greedy rich folk down south. I'm from the w/c NE of England. My entire extended family over at least 4 generations through good and bad times have always had jobs, paid taxes and sacrificed for their children. Others we knew opted for the dole, fags and beer. Sometimes it's just the choices people make.

    It can be different with PR. Even in Spain two new parties have emerged, gained significant support and won seats in Parliament within five years of being formed.

  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,125

    taffys said:

    ''What is happening in Britain is happening elsewhere. The economic/political system we have had for the last 30 years or so has worked for some but not worked for many and the many are now making their feelings known. ''

    I get the feeling we are closer to the start of this than the end.

    Just wait till automation destroys many more semi clerical jobs. It is coming..

    As for globalisation , it cannot be stopped. Nor can automation..

    Of course, if you want to work in a car industry making cars manually at 1960s wage levels, you can... because that is the alternative. But no-one will buy your cars because cars built by robots are better,- consistent quality etc.

    China has undermined cheap manufacturing in the West. Its sellers are now undermining UK shops and wholesellers. Why spend £50 for a product in the UK when you can buy direct from the maker for 25% of the price.?

    We are fast approaching a time when those without key skills will be unemployable unless they are prepared to work in agriculture or the care industries.. These are labour intensive..

    The UK welfare system will not survive not will the NHS..

    That's pretty much right.
  • Options
    JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    Lennon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Crick says Lab NEC heading for an evening finish

    Does he say which evening?
    Some enchanted evening
  • Options
    ChaosOdinChaosOdin Posts: 67
    edited July 2016
    nunu said:

    Laura Kuenssberg sets out the expected Cabinet changes:

    "There is a consensus that Philip Hammond, the foreign secretary, will become the chancellor, doing what might be one of the most powerful job swaps in the land with George Osborne.

    After too long in the Treasury bunker, most people expect him to be moved out. Chris Grayling is likely to head up the negotiations over us leaving the EU, in charge at whatever ministry is created to mastermind that process.

    As a prominent Eurosceptic who didn't get down in the gutter in the campaign, he is likely to rise, having run Theresa May's short campaign too.

    James Brokenshire, Theresa May's long-serving Home Office minister, is likely to be put in charge at that department - not a bad reward for years of having to defend the government's struggling immigration policy at the despatch box.

    Stephen Crabb is likely to be left where he is, John Whittingdale might be moved out of the culture brief, potentially to be replaced with Damian Green, a Europhile who was also part of May's campaign team.

    Priti Patel and Justine Greening are likely to be moved up, Nicky Morgan to be moved out, Amber Rudd and Sajid Javid both thought to be likely to stay where they are."

    To what extent, and in what respects, she is wrong will be a useful measurement of sentiment.

    I would expect most of thast to be right. Greening to be given a promotion though I think.
    I hope they really do get rid of Morgan, she is well meaning but not up to scratch.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,031
    Is there a market on whether the NEC decision will come before or after the next Conservative leadership contest is concluded?
  • Options
    JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807

    Labour official has emerged from party HQ at 105 Victoria St to tell reporters NEC on Corbyn leadership challenge likely to last beyond 6pm.

    It's a secret ballot. Get your white and black smoke at the ready. Which union baron is going to knife him in the privacy of the booth???????
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 25,100
    edited July 2016

    taffys said:

    ''What is happening in Britain is happening elsewhere. The economic/political system we have had for the last 30 years or so has worked for some but not worked for many and the many are now making their feelings known. ''

    I get the feeling we are closer to the start of this than the end.

    Just wait till automation destroys many more semi clerical jobs. It is coming..

    As for globalisation , it cannot be stopped. Nor can automation..

    Of course, if you want to work in a car industry making cars manually at 1960s wage levels, you can... because that is the alternative. But no-one will buy your cars because cars built by robots are better,- consistent quality etc.

    China has undermined cheap manufacturing in the West. Its sellers are now undermining UK shops and wholesellers. Why spend £50 for a product in the UK when you can buy direct from the maker for 25% of the price.?

    We are fast approaching a time when those without key skills will be unemployable unless they are prepared to work in agriculture or the care industries.. These are labour intensive..

    The UK welfare system will not survive not will the NHS..

    If you look at Chinese electronic brands its remarkable how cheap they are compared to Western (including Korean and Japanese) brands...

    One reason Oneplus is so focussed on selling to the West is that it allows them to charge 50% more than they could sell the phones for in China itself....

    And if you are interested in this stuff The Inevitable by Kevin Kelly will show exactly what will happen over the next 30 years - as its already in motion....

    The other book I was reading at the same time back in early June was The Mandibles: A Family, 2029-2047 by Lionel Shriver. It starts with the USA economy collapsing. It finishes with China exporting its OAPs to be cared for in the cheapest labour market in the world (the USA)..
  • Options
    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    edited July 2016
    FF43 said:

    Interesting article, The greatest tragedy of Brexit is the death of David Cameron's modernisation agenda, by Rupert Myers in the Telegraph on exactly Cycle Free's theme. This was the "Life Chances" project to:

    “use the opportunity of a strengthening economy to deliver security for working people.” Cameron clearly saw the need to tackle entrenched poverty through social action, and was planning to spend his final years in office helping the least well off through intervention and through trying to make opportunities more equal.
    Rupert Myers thinks this has been knocked for six by Brexit:
    Cameron himself won’t get the chance to implement this. Nobody will even remember that he attempted it, overshadowed as his legacy will be so completely by the referendum ... Brexit means years of government manpower diverted. The best and the brightest won’t be focusing on helping the poorest in our society, but to clambering around for trade deals. In the long run, Britain may be better off from Brexit, but there is a real risk that it will come at the expense of opportunities for the very poorest in society.
    I think that overblown. Early indications are of a relatively modest department for Brexit.

    The idea that our best and brightest _have_ been focusing on helping the poorest in our society, only to be diverted from their noble task by the pesky EUref is risible.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,138
    felix said:

    Mr. Observer, Labour had a majority about four or five times larger with a lower share of the vote in 2005.

    Nobody complained about it then (Lib Dems excepted, but they've always been mad for PR).

    Quite - and look what a shambles they made of it.
    When did they get PR anywhere near the statute book? Or even seriously debated?
  • Options
    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Jobabob said:

    Lennon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Crick says Lab NEC heading for an evening finish

    Does he say which evening?
    Some enchanted evening
    :lol:
  • Options
    JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807

    Is there a market on whether the NEC decision will come before or after the next Conservative leadership contest is concluded?

    Take the even money on offer that it will be after the GE in 2020.
  • Options
    frpenkridgefrpenkridge Posts: 670
    Ruth is behaving like someone who is demob happy after being offered a better job.
  • Options
    JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    News just in from Victoria Street........



















    Charlie Falconer has resigned.
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,125

    felix said:

    Cyclefree said:

    felix said:

    DavidL said:

    Alasdair said:

    Another great piece from Cyclefree.


    Yes to AV!!

    Actually I agree with you but cant see how it ever comes about
    The 1.5m who voted in the referendum because they realised their vote counted for once are an unanswerable argument for voting reform. If politics is to be for all the people all the people need to have a meaningful say.

    Precisely this. Anyone talking about listening to ordinary people in left-behind towns who then continues to advocate FPTP is a hypocrite. It's really as simple as that. And, yes, I include all Labour supporters, MPs and ex-ministers in that.

    And yet the same feelings exist in almost every country in the developed world regardless of the electoral system. It has to be deeper than that.
    Give places.

    Do I electorate? Nope.
    I don't think that the voting system is the sole cause of the issues. I was just saying that the referendum and how it brought people out to vote had made me look again at the whole issue of PR.

    What is happening in Britain is happening elsewhere. The economic/political system we have had for the last 30 years or so has worked for some but not worked for many and the many are now making their feelings known.

    You get to govern with 37% of the vote in the UK. That is not a system that is working for the many.

    Would it be so different with PR - a coalition of 5% here 20% there, etc. Spain is heading to it's 3rd GE as I write and Italy???? I also have concerns when the 'dispossessed' suddenly all become 'victims' of the rapacious and greedy rich folk down south. I'm from the w/c NE of England. My entire extended family over at least 4 generations through good and bad times have always had jobs, paid taxes and sacrificed for their children. Others we knew opted for the dole, fags and beer. Sometimes it's just the choices people make.

    It can be different with PR. Even in Spain two new parties have emerged, gained significant support and won seats in Parliament within five years of being formed.

    And that is why there has been no government 2 GE's on with a third on the way. I'm unclear as to quite which group of the dispossessed are gaining from this. Also worth noting that both of those parties lost seats and votes last time.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 25,100
    Jobabob said:

    Labour official has emerged from party HQ at 105 Victoria St to tell reporters NEC on Corbyn leadership challenge likely to last beyond 6pm.

    It's a secret ballot. Get your white and black smoke at the ready. Which union baron is going to knife him in the privacy of the booth???????
    Is it? The first thing that has to be agreed is the method of voting... And there is no way on earth Corbyn is going to allow a secret vote...
  • Options
    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    I think we should have another Tory leadership election to while away the time as the NEC struggles manfully to understand its own rules.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    John_M said:

    I think we should have another Tory leadership election to while away the time as the NEC struggles manfully to understand its own rules.

    :lol:
  • Options
    ToryJimToryJim Posts: 3,488

    Is there a market on whether the NEC decision will come before or after the next Conservative leadership contest is concluded?

    Miaow Mr Dancer. Perhaps there ought to be a market on whether the Conservatives get their third woman leader before Labour gets round to their first!
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited July 2016
    Having thought about it, I suspect that Theresa May's first cabinet is going to be a much more radical reshuffle than most journalists are expecting. Although she's a 'safe pair of hands', that doesn't at all mean that she's timid, as various vested interests, and LibDem junior ministers in the last parliament, have found to their cost. Moreover she'll want to impose her own authority decisively on the government and party. Expect to be surprised (except probably on the choice of Chancellor).
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,029
    Woke yesterday to find May had won. Woke up today to find Corbyn still leader (well, since we are waiting in the NEC's verdict). What more could a PB Tory wish for? :D
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    John_M said:

    I think we should have another Tory leadership election to while away the time as the NEC struggles manfully to understand its own rules.

    LOL!
  • Options
    ToryJimToryJim Posts: 3,488

    Having thought about it, I suspect that Theresa May's first cabinet is going to be a much more radical reshuffle than most journalists are expecting. Although she's a 'safe pair of hands', that doesn't at all mean that she's timid, as various vested interests, and LibDem junior ministers in the last parliament, have found to their cost. Moreover she'll want to impose her own authority decisively on the government and party. Expect to be surprised (except probably on the choice of Chancellor).

    Tend to agree
  • Options
    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,159
    eek said:

    The first thing that has to be agreed is the method of voting... And there is no way on earth Corbyn is going to allow a secret vote...

    It's not up to him.
  • Options
    ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    Jobabob said:

    Labour official has emerged from party HQ at 105 Victoria St to tell reporters NEC on Corbyn leadership challenge likely to last beyond 6pm.

    It's a secret ballot. Get your white and black smoke at the ready. Which union baron is going to knife him in the privacy of the booth???????
    They'll have to remind Lammy what the black and white smoke means.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/the-pope/9926894/Labour-MP-embarrassed-after-claiming-that-white-or-black-smoke-tweet-about-the-Pope-is-about-race.html
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,950

    Laura Kuenssberg sets out the expected Cabinet changes:

    "There is a consensus that Philip Hammond, the foreign secretary, will become the chancellor, doing what might be one of the most powerful job swaps in the land with George Osborne.

    After too long in the Treasury bunker, most people expect him to be moved out. Chris Grayling is likely to head up the negotiations over us leaving the EU, in charge at whatever ministry is created to mastermind that process.

    As a prominent Eurosceptic who didn't get down in the gutter in the campaign, he is likely to rise, having run Theresa May's short campaign too.

    James Brokenshire, Theresa May's long-serving Home Office minister, is likely to be put in charge at that department - not a bad reward for years of having to defend the government's struggling immigration policy at the despatch box.

    Stephen Crabb is likely to be left where he is, John Whittingdale might be moved out of the culture brief, potentially to be replaced with Damian Green, a Europhile who was also part of May's campaign team.

    Priti Patel and Justine Greening are likely to be moved up, Nicky Morgan to be moved out, Amber Rudd and Sajid Javid both thought to be likely to stay where they are."

    To what extent, and in what respects, she is wrong will be a useful measurement of sentiment.

    As Theresa supposedly doesn't spend her time "gossiping" with journalists or scheming with acolytes, how on earth would anybody other than her, know what the Cabinet will be like?

    What I would say though is that having Remainers as PM, CoE and Foreign Secretary should be a non-starter. A prominent LEAVER should fill at least one of these roles.

    And Mr (Punishment Budget) Osborne shouldn't anywhere near the government.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,036

    eek said:

    The first thing that has to be agreed is the method of voting... And there is no way on earth Corbyn is going to allow a secret vote...

    It's not up to him.
    Just who is it up to ?
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,623

    Lowlander said:

    Blimey, hadn't seen Ruth's postscript to that Johnson gag:
    https://twitter.com/stvharry/status/752870455866949632

    Ruth has always been pretty colourful with her language, I guess this is just the first time it's getting reported down south.

    She is the Roy Chubby Brown of Scottish politics.
    Sounds like a woman starting to believe her own hype.
    Couldn't agree more, hence my comments above. We don't need a Scottish Angela Eagle.

    "Angela Eagle" is an Old English phrase meaning "extremely lightweight" :lol:
  • Options
    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,739
    GIN1138 said:

    Laura Kuenssberg sets out the expected Cabinet changes:

    "There is a consensus that Philip Hammond, the foreign secretary, will become the chancellor, doing what might be one of the most powerful job swaps in the land with George Osborne.

    After too long in the Treasury bunker, most people expect him to be moved out. Chris Grayling is likely to head up the negotiations over us leaving the EU, in charge at whatever ministry is created to mastermind that process.

    As a prominent Eurosceptic who didn't get down in the gutter in the campaign, he is likely to rise, having run Theresa May's short campaign too.

    James Brokenshire, Theresa May's long-serving Home Office minister, is likely to be put in charge at that department - not a bad reward for years of having to defend the government's struggling immigration policy at the despatch box.

    Stephen Crabb is likely to be left where he is, John Whittingdale might be moved out of the culture brief, potentially to be replaced with Damian Green, a Europhile who was also part of May's campaign team.

    Priti Patel and Justine Greening are likely to be moved up, Nicky Morgan to be moved out, Amber Rudd and Sajid Javid both thought to be likely to stay where they are."

    To what extent, and in what respects, she is wrong will be a useful measurement of sentiment.

    As Theresa supposedly doesn't spend her time "gossiping" with journalists or scheming with acolytes, how on earth would anybody other than her, know what the Cabinet will be like?

    What I would say though is that having Remainers as PM, CoE and Foreign Secretary should be a non-starter. A prominent LEAVER should fill at least one of these roles.

    And Mr (Punishment Budget) Osborne shouldn't anywhere near the government.
    Prominent Leaver, would that be Gove, Boris or Leadsom?
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,258
    felix said:

    Would it be so different with PR - a coalition of 5% here 20% there, etc. Spain is heading to it's 3rd GE as I write and Italy???? I also have concerns when the 'dispossessed' suddenly all become 'victims' of the rapacious and greedy rich folk down south. I'm from the w/c NE of England. My entire extended family over at least 4 generations through good and bad times have always had jobs, paid taxes and sacrificed for their children. Others we knew opted for the dole, fags and beer. Sometimes it's just the choices people make.

    You think Spain's going to have another election? My sources are pretty confident that there'll be a deal in the next week or so.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 25,100
    edited July 2016

    eek said:

    The first thing that has to be agreed is the method of voting... And there is no way on earth Corbyn is going to allow a secret vote...

    It's not up to him.
    It is... A show of hands as to the method of voting will have to tally with the result of the vote as its just a proxy for the final vote...

    If as everyone expects public vote = Corbyn on ballot, secret ballot = Corbyn out

    then it follows that if you are voting for Corbyn in public you need to go for a public vote...
  • Options
    DanSmithDanSmith Posts: 1,215
    eek said:

    Jobabob said:

    Labour official has emerged from party HQ at 105 Victoria St to tell reporters NEC on Corbyn leadership challenge likely to last beyond 6pm.

    It's a secret ballot. Get your white and black smoke at the ready. Which union baron is going to knife him in the privacy of the booth???????
    Is it? The first thing that has to be agreed is the method of voting... And there is no way on earth Corbyn is going to allow a secret vote...
    Might be the first unwelcome shock for Corbyn today.
  • Options
    ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    GIN1138 said:

    Laura Kuenssberg sets out the expected Cabinet changes:

    "There is a consensus that Philip Hammond, the foreign secretary, will become the chancellor, doing what might be one of the most powerful job swaps in the land with George Osborne.

    After too long in the Treasury bunker, most people expect him to be moved out. Chris Grayling is likely to head up the negotiations over us leaving the EU, in charge at whatever ministry is created to mastermind that process.

    As a prominent Eurosceptic who didn't get down in the gutter in the campaign, he is likely to rise, having run Theresa May's short campaign too.

    James Brokenshire, Theresa May's long-serving Home Office minister, is likely to be put in charge at that department - not a bad reward for years of having to defend the government's struggling immigration policy at the despatch box.

    Stephen Crabb is likely to be left where he is, John Whittingdale might be moved out of the culture brief, potentially to be replaced with Damian Green, a Europhile who was also part of May's campaign team.

    Priti Patel and Justine Greening are likely to be moved up, Nicky Morgan to be moved out, Amber Rudd and Sajid Javid both thought to be likely to stay where they are."

    To what extent, and in what respects, she is wrong will be a useful measurement of sentiment.

    As Theresa supposedly doesn't spend her time "gossiping" with journalists or scheming with acolytes, how on earth would anybody other than her, know what the Cabinet will be like?

    What I would say though is that having Remainers as PM, CoE and Foreign Secretary should be a non-starter. A prominent LEAVER should fill at least one of these roles.

    And Mr (Punishment Budget) Osborne shouldn't anywhere near the government.
    If she keeps Osborne in any capacity, she's a bottler.
  • Options
    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    The consensus is that the cabinet and government that May will form will essentially be a continuation - wth a few minor changes - of the Cameron government. If that is the so, she will be doomed to fail at the very start.

    The thing above all others that must be tackled is BREXIT: Cameron knew that he couldn't manage this feat, and neither will an unreformed Cameronian cabinet be able to..
  • Options
    ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    Lowlander said:

    Blimey, hadn't seen Ruth's postscript to that Johnson gag:
    https://twitter.com/stvharry/status/752870455866949632

    Ruth has always been pretty colourful with her language, I guess this is just the first time it's getting reported down south.

    She is the Roy Chubby Brown of Scottish politics.
    Sounds like a woman starting to believe her own hype.
    Couldn't agree more, hence my comments above. We don't need a Scottish Angela Eagle.

    "Angela Eagle" is an Old English phrase meaning "extremely lightweight" :lol:
    I did like the Corbynista jibe "the lesser of two Eagles"
  • Options
    DanSmithDanSmith Posts: 1,215
    eek said:

    eek said:

    The first thing that has to be agreed is the method of voting... And there is no way on earth Corbyn is going to allow a secret vote...

    It's not up to him.
    It is... A show of hands as to the method of voting will have to tally with the result of the vote as its just a proxy for the final vote...

    If as everyone expects public vote = Corbyn on ballot, secret ballot = Corbyn out

    then it follows that if you are voting for Corbyn in public you need to go for a public vote...
    Michael Crick ‏@MichaelLCrick 45s45 seconds ago
    Labour NEC vote 17-15 to hold secret votes on proceedings today

    Corbyn's in trouble.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited July 2016

    If she keeps Osborne in any capacity, she's a bottler.

    Or, to be more precise, if she keeps Osborne, that shows she has courage, given the hostility to him amongst some.

    I don't know if she will or not, but she won't be intimidated either way.
  • Options
    DanSmithDanSmith Posts: 1,215
    Michael Crick ‏@MichaelLCrick 21s22 seconds ago
    Jeremy Corbyn is about to be excluded from Labour NEC meeting. Secret ballots thought to favour critics.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,029
    MikeK said:

    The consensus is that the cabinet and government that May will form will essentially be a continuation - wth a few minor changes - of the Cameron government. If that is the so, she will be doomed to fail at the very start.

    The thing above all others that must be tackled is BREXIT: Cameron knew that he couldn't manage this feat, and neither will an unreformed Cameronian cabinet be able to..

    If Kuenssberg's predictions are accurate, it isn't a few minor changes...
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,950
    edited July 2016

    GIN1138 said:

    Laura Kuenssberg sets out the expected Cabinet changes:

    "There is a consensus that Philip Hammond, the foreign secretary, will become the chancellor, doing what might be one of the most powerful job swaps in the land with George Osborne.

    After too long in the Treasury bunker, most people expect him to be moved out. Chris Grayling is likely to head up the negotiations over us leaving the EU, in charge at whatever ministry is created to mastermind that process.

    As a prominent Eurosceptic who didn't get down in the gutter in the campaign, he is likely to rise, having run Theresa May's short campaign too.

    James Brokenshire, Theresa May's long-serving Home Office minister, is likely to be put in charge at that department - not a bad reward for years of having to defend the government's struggling immigration policy at the despatch box.

    Stephen Crabb is likely to be left where he is, John Whittingdale might be moved out of the culture brief, potentially to be replaced with Damian Green, a Europhile who was also part of May's campaign team.

    Priti Patel and Justine Greening are likely to be moved up, Nicky Morgan to be moved out, Amber Rudd and Sajid Javid both thought to be likely to stay where they are."

    To what extent, and in what respects, she is wrong will be a useful measurement of sentiment.

    As Theresa supposedly doesn't spend her time "gossiping" with journalists or scheming with acolytes, how on earth would anybody other than her, know what the Cabinet will be like?

    What I would say though is that having Remainers as PM, CoE and Foreign Secretary should be a non-starter. A prominent LEAVER should fill at least one of these roles.

    And Mr (Punishment Budget) Osborne shouldn't anywhere near the government.
    If she keeps Osborne in any capacity, she's a bottler.
    I guess she could move him to the Downing Street domestic services departments toilet division? ;)
This discussion has been closed.