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  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    Danny565 said:



    As far as he is concerned, he has the overwhelming support of the membership - and thus the damage to unity comes from 172 traitors in the PLP

    I'll say it again, even if he isn't on the ballot paper, 300,000+ members will write CORBYN on the ballot - and vote for it. Whoever is declared the "winner" will have no authority - except over the MPs. Who will all be deselected. Pretty much the entire Labour Party in Westminster will be different after the next election - except those who were prepared to nominate Jeremy.
    It's possible. But honestly I really don't think it's going to happen. I honestly don't think the vast majority of the 300,000 really will care that much. They'll move on.
    Move on to a breakaway party.
    Why the need to form an existing one? They have plenty of choice:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Left

    Electoral groups[edit]
    Alliance for Green Socialism
    Class War
    Communist League
    Communist Party of Britain
    Respect Party
    Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition
    Socialist Equality Party
    Socialist Labour Party
    Socialist Party of Great Britain
    Workers' Revolutionary Party
    Groups working within TUSC[edit]
    Further information: Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition
    Socialist Party (England and Wales)
    Socialist Workers Party
    Non-electoral groups[edit]
    Anti-revisionists[edit]
    Further information: Anti-revisionism
    Communist Party of Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
    Communist Party of Great Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
    New Communist Party of Britain
    Revolutionary Communist Group
    Revolutionary Communist Party of Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
    Spartacist League
    Others[edit]
    Anarchist Federation
    Communist Party of Great Britain (Provisional Central Committee)
    Communist Workers Organisation
    International Socialist League
    Independent Working Class Association
    World Revolution
    Solidarity Federation
    Workers' Fight
    Groups working within Labour Party[edit]
    Further information: Left Unity (UK)
    Alliance for Workers Liberty
    Left Unity
    Socialist Resistance
    Entryist groups within Labour Party[edit]
    Further information: Entryism
    Socialist Action
    Socialist Appeal
    Workers Power
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Jobabob said:

    SeanT said:

    Jezza is an unmitigated disaster for the Labour Party but I cannot read those rules in any way other than that he doesn't need to obtain signatures. This will get nasty.

    Agreed. Don't get the assumption that the courts will concur with the NEC

    Any common sense reading of the rules finds in Jezbollah's favour. But IANAL and maybe there is some precedent which assists Labour.

    The Kinnock Precedent and the Collins Review.
    Big wirdz that have no application to the question...
  • shiney2shiney2 Posts: 672
    Pulpstar said:

    IanB2 said:

    Danny565 said:

    AndyJS said:

    What a laugh Corbyn is. You cannot make this up.

    If he's denied a place on the ballot, will he and 15 other Labour MPs resign their seats in the Commons? They can't just take this lying down, surely.
    That will be a small price to pay in comparison to what could happen if Corbyn wins the leadership again.
    Yeah, along with most of the Labour membership, and atleast half of Labour's current vote. That's what the PLP are prepared to let happen if it means they get one of "their own" installed.

    You seriously think that half of Labour's current vote would walk away if Corbyn were not leader?

    What sane person with an ounce of foresight or understanding would want to become Labour leader right now in such circumstances?
    I've levelled up to zero on Angela Eagle.

    This is a complete hospital pass. Who else will want it ?
    Be a step up, from where he presently is, for T.Blair.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    DavidL said:

    I tend to agree with those who think the rules do not require the person being challenged, that is the incumbent, to be nominated but ffs, how can you possibly lead the party in Parliament when 3/4 have already passed a no confidence motion in you and 50 are not prepared to back you? This is through the looking glass, it really is.

    Having briefly gone undercover to mingle with Momentum's pixie people, I think the idea is that Labour need to replace the MPs, in order to better reflect the views of the members.
  • JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    The NEC will still back Corbyn I think. I would still be surprised if they pull it off. We shall see.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,662
    Mr. S, but if Corbyn isn't on the ballot it does appear the NEC will be voting to ignore or to rewrite the rules.

    That's not great (even if it's felt to be a necessary step to get a functioning Opposition).
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @DannyShawBBC: This is significant: @JBrokenshire says it would be "virtually impossible" to remove EU citizens who've been in the UK for at least 5 years
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091

    Danny565 said:

    With respect, have you actually spoken to (m)any Leave Labour voters?

    Immigration was one of the big factors (although on that score, Corbyn and the PLP "moderates" are exactly the same, since the PLP still want to stay in the EU and keep freedom of movement anyway). But other big factors were how much people hated the "career/Establishment politicians" who were leading the Remain campaign, how people were sick of the economy screwing over the little guy, and just generally a scream for ANY change from the terrible status quo. If Labour goes back to a career politician, not promising any real changes from the status quo and sucking up to big businesses, with their main campaigning issues being total fringe issues like feminism, it follows to expect it to fare similarly to the Remain campaign which also based its platform on that.

    But the PLP "moderates" probably know all that secretly, and they're not even bothering to CLAIM they would be more electable than Corbyn anymore - all they want is to preserve their own ideology even if that comes at the cost of a Remain-style electoral meltdown.

    Yes, I have. Most of my family votes Labour. I know Labour, Conservative, and even UKIP leavers. All of whom voted leave because of immigration. All of whom saw the economic problems affecting them, and potentially their children as connected to immigration. Did they dislike career politicians? Yes. But that's voters from all politcal parties, tbqh. Not just Labour. This isn't about going back to a career politician leading Labour. This isn't about installing a Blairite as the new Labour leader. This is about getting someone in - regardless of whether they are from the soft left of the party, or the right - who actually cares about winning elections. Who sees Labour as a political party, and not some meaningless social movement. Who takes into account the views of the membership, but does not hold the entire party hostage to each and everyone of their views. PLP moderates want to preserve the Labour party, as do the rest of the PLP. What they do not want is Leftist militants taking over the party, because once that happens there is no going back anymore.
    I might've agreed the PLP had good intentions a while ago (after all, I voted for one of the PLP's own in a leadership election just a year ago), but I'm not that naive anymore.

    If the PLP were really concerned about getting Labour elected, they would not be calling for Labour to base their strategy on the main planks of the Remain Campaign, they would not be pushing forward a complete charisma vacuum like Angela Eagle who will NEVER be seen as a potential PM by the public, and they would not be trying to actively split the party as much as they are now. They are only concerned with their own ideological purity, as much as the hard left is.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    Danny565 said:



    As far as he is concerned, he has the overwhelming support of the membership - and thus the damage to unity comes from 172 traitors in the PLP

    I'll say it again, even if he isn't on the ballot paper, 300,000+ members will write CORBYN on the ballot - and vote for it. Whoever is declared the "winner" will have no authority - except over the MPs. Who will all be deselected. Pretty much the entire Labour Party in Westminster will be different after the next election - except those who were prepared to nominate Jeremy.
    It's possible. But honestly I really don't think it's going to happen. I honestly don't think the vast majority of the 300,000 really will care that much. They'll move on.
    Move on to a breakaway party.
    Why the need to form an existing one? They have plenty of choice:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Left

    Electoral groups[edit]
    Alliance for Green Socialism
    Class War
    Communist League
    Communist Party of Britain
    Respect Party
    Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition
    Socialist Equality Party
    Socialist Labour Party
    Socialist Party of Great Britain
    Workers' Revolutionary Party
    Groups working within TUSC[edit]
    Further information: Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition
    Socialist Party (England and Wales)
    Socialist Workers Party
    Non-electoral groups[edit]
    Anti-revisionists[edit]
    Further information: Anti-revisionism
    Communist Party of Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
    Communist Party of Great Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
    New Communist Party of Britain
    Revolutionary Communist Group
    Revolutionary Communist Party of Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
    Spartacist League
    Others[edit]
    Anarchist Federation
    Communist Party of Great Britain (Provisional Central Committee)
    Communist Workers Organisation
    International Socialist League
    Independent Working Class Association
    World Revolution
    Solidarity Federation
    Workers' Fight
    Groups working within Labour Party[edit]
    Further information: Left Unity (UK)
    Alliance for Workers Liberty
    Left Unity
    Socialist Resistance
    Entryist groups within Labour Party[edit]
    Further information: Entryism
    Socialist Action
    Socialist Appeal
    Workers Power
    With the exception of 'Spartacist League', these are all terrible, terrible band names.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    PlatoSaid said:

    Martyn Rowe
    This must be the 1st time in history a political party is fixing it so the members can't vote for the person they want to win #LabourNEC

    Wasn't it Ed who came up with the £3 membership scheme. Amazing if he ends up being blamed for destroying the labour party
    I think Harriet was also very much involved in that plan
    Wasn't it Baldrick?
  • peter_from_putneypeter_from_putney Posts: 6,956
    edited July 2016
    It would seem that Dave & Sam are doing it on the cheap by using SimplyRemovals.co.uk :

    http://tinyurl.com/jquhcrg

    What happened to trusty old John Lewis?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,732
    Scott_P said:

    @DannyShawBBC: This is significant: @JBrokenshire says it would be "virtually impossible" to remove EU citizens who've been in the UK for at least 5 years

    Yes, not sure there are plans to!
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    RobD said:

    surbiton said:

    murali_s said:

    Jezza is an unmitigated disaster for the Labour Party but I cannot read those rules in any way other than that he doesn't need to obtain signatures. This will get nasty.

    The courts will back the NEC. The storm will die down in a few months...
    The courts will say it is the internal matter of the Labour Party. Therefore, whatever, NEC says , goes.
    Which implies the Courts can't make judgement on any contract law, since it is an internal matter to the contracting parties.
    No, it means the courts can't make judgements on contract law when the contract defines who the separate arbitration panel is for resolving disputes.

    Most contractees would not be stupid enough to choose a nakedly political outfit as the impartial arbitrators, but this is the Labour Party we are talking about.
    They can and do.
  • Does this mean the NEC could interpret any article in the Labour rules as it wants to, as long as there is a challenge? Could it interpret 46 nominations as meaning 92 nominations, as long as the majority voted that way?
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,239

    RodCrosby said:

    https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/752898327516151808
    Calls of nature getting urgent?
    To consult with their spiritual advisors?

    maybe to get some black balls & a couple of jars for a secret vote?
    Don't let David Lammy read that.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,302

    Danny565 said:



    As if the EU encapsulates Labour moderates' whole view. Where on earth is the basis for this exactly? As I said before the very reason why Labour voters voted for Brexit is because of concerns regarding freedom of movement. The man you claim is close to Labour voters' political perspective is incredibly pro-freedom of movement and has far more left-wing views, than even the socially liberal PLP that you claim is miles away from the average Labour voter. As for Labour voters, back in April 2015 polls showed Ed Miliband scoring as a 81% of Labour voters 'approving' of him. Does it mean 81% of Labour voters would walk away from the party if Labour had deposed of Ed Miliband? No, it doesn't in my opinion. https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/vojtflusz6/YG-Archive-Pol-Sunday-Times-results-180415.pdf#page=3


    With respect, have you actually spoken to (m)any Leave Labour voters?

    Immigration was one of the big factors (although on that score, Corbyn and the PLP "moderates" are exactly the same, since the PLP still want to stay in the EU and keep freedom of movement anyway). But other big factors were how much people hated the "career/Establishment politicians" who were leading the Remain campaign, how people were sick of the economy screwing over the little guy, and just generally a scream for ANY change from the terrible status quo. If Labour goes back to a career politician, not promising any real changes from the status quo and sucking up to big businesses, with their main campaigning issues being total fringe issues like feminism, it follows to expect it to fare similarly to the Remain campaign which also based its platform on that.

    But the PLP "moderates" probably know all that secretly, and they're not even bothering to CLAIM they would be more electable than Corbyn anymore - all they want is to preserve their own ideology even if that comes at the cost of a Remain-style electoral meltdown.

    No, what they want is for Labour to continue being a party whose primary focus is on winning power through parliamentary elections. There is nothing else that unites the broad band of Labour MPs who are from all parts of the party, except the hard left (and maybe Andy Burnham)

    They are the establishment. They represent themselves.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    SeanT said:

    IF Labour succeed in ousting Jez, what chance half their members depart, along with half the unions...

    Leaving the party bankrupt?

    A lot more than half the members, and atleast half of their current voters, IMO.

    And yet we're supposed to believe the PLP are concerned about "electability rather than ideology", when they're happy to have a party without its members/voters/funding, led by Angela Eagle.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,654
    One problem with a radical shakeup of the cabinet that seems to be getting overlooked is Mays very small majority. She really can't afford to have a disgruntled dozen sitting on the back benches, not if she is wanting to pass any legislation anyway.

    And that dozen were being organised by Osborne....
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,769
    edited July 2016
    Jobabob said:

    The NEC will still back Corbyn I think. I would still be surprised if they pull it off. We shall see.

    A slim hope, but some hope.

    The truth is @Jobabob I really don't like losing bets and I have 150 on Corbyn to see out the year :o

    I've reshaped the Lab leadership book to be acceptable whatever the outcome anyhow. Except Mr D Miliband. He best not swan over...
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,662
    Politics in the last few weeks has been like watching 10 box sets of 20 episode-long series in a fortnight.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,207
    SeanT said:

    Jezza is an unmitigated disaster for the Labour Party but I cannot read those rules in any way other than that he doesn't need to obtain signatures. This will get nasty.

    Agreed. Don't get the assumption that the courts will concur with the NEC

    Any common sense reading of the rules finds in Jezbollah's favour. But IANAL and maybe there is some precedent which assists Labour.

    I am a lawyer (well, was - but lawyer is a tag that follows you to the grave, like murderer...) but I also cannot read those rules in any way other than that he doesn't need to obtain signatures.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    DavidL said:

    I tend to agree with those who think the rules do not require the person being challenged, that is the incumbent, to be nominated but ffs, how can you possibly lead the party in Parliament when 3/4 have already passed a no confidence motion in you and 50 are not prepared to back you? This is through the looking glass, it really is.

    Yup we are on the cusp of the Judean People's Front and the Popular Front of Judea. Soon someone will pick up a sandal and another a gourd to venerate. Pythonesque doesn't come close.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,518
    Pulpstar said:

    Jobabob said:

    The NEC will still back Corbyn I think. I would still be surprised if they pull it off. We shall see.

    A slim hope, but some hope.

    The truth is @Jobabob I really don't like losing bets and I have 150 on Corbyn to see out the year :o
    I get the feeling you've played all of the leader markets very poorly.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    GIN1138 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Cameron is going to fall 91 days short of John Major's length of time in Downing Street.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Prime_Ministers_of_the_United_Kingdom_by_tenure

    Wonder where The Blessed Theresa will finish up on that list? ;)
    If the next two elections are 2020 and 2025 I can't envisage Theresa May fighting more than one election. Maybe that's a statement of the obvious.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Heather Stewart
    Am told the NEC's decision to hold secret ballot was swung by two female members particularly distressed about threat of intimidation.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,662
    Mr. Pulpstar, that's tasty. Have you hedged?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,725

    Danny565 said:



    As if the EU encapsulates Labour moderates' whole view. Where on earth is the basis for this exactly? As I said before the very reason why Labour voters voted for Brexit is because of concerns regarding freedom of movement. The man you claim is close to Labour voters' political perspective is incredibly pro-freedom of movement and has far more left-wing views, than even the socially liberal PLP that you claim is miles away from the average Labour voter. As for Labour voters, back in April 2015 polls showed Ed Miliband scoring as a 81% of Labour voters 'approving' of him. Does it mean 81% of Labour voters would walk away from the party if Labour had deposed of Ed Miliband? No, it doesn't in my opinion. https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/vojtflusz6/YG-Archive-Pol-Sunday-Times-results-180415.pdf#page=3


    With respect, have you actually spoken to (m)any Leave Labour voters?

    Immigration was one of the big factors (although on that score, Corbyn and the PLP "moderates" are exactly the same, since the PLP still want to stay in the EU and keep freedom of movement anyway). But other big factors were how much people hated the "career/Establishment politicians" who were leading the Remain campaign, how people were sick of the economy screwing over the little guy, and just generally a scream for ANY change from the terrible status quo. If Labour goes back to a career politician, not promising any real changes from the status quo and sucking up to big businesses, with their main campaigning issues being total fringe issues like feminism, it follows to expect it to fare similarly to the Remain campaign which also based its platform on that.

    But the PLP "moderates" probably know all that secretly, and they're not even bothering to CLAIM they would be more electable than Corbyn anymore - all they want is to preserve their own ideology even if that comes at the cost of a Remain-style electoral meltdown.

    No, what they want is for Labour to continue being a party whose primary focus is on winning power through parliamentary elections. There is nothing else that unites the broad band of Labour MPs who are from all parts of the party, except the hard left (and maybe Andy Burnham)

    They are the establishment. They represent themselves.
    +1. Apart from the brand name and the slowly fading voting habits of a slowly ageing generation, they have nothing to offer except ambition on a stick.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,732

    Politics in the last few weeks has been like watching 10 box sets of 20 episode-long series in a fortnight.

    A snap GE would be the proverbial cherry on top!
  • Danny565 said:

    SeanT said:

    IF Labour succeed in ousting Jez, what chance half their members depart, along with half the unions...

    Leaving the party bankrupt?

    A lot more than half the members, and atleast half of their current voters, IMO.

    And yet we're supposed to believe the PLP are concerned about "electability rather than ideology", when they're happy to have a party without its members/voters/funding, led by Angela Eagle.
    The members might leave, but that is what the PLP wants! The voters don't care enough...
  • shiney2shiney2 Posts: 672
    If the nec doesn't come to any decision, is Comrade Jez on the ballot by default (assuming he wants it)? Is there a quorum for a legit nec decision?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,662
    Incidentally, the secret ballot can swing both ways.

    Imagine you're on the NEC. If Corbyn wins, no reprisals. If he loses, people will wonder who voted this way or that. Which situation would make you feel more comfortable, in terms of personal safety?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,347
    edited July 2016
    Well this UK reboot of House of Cards has been pretty exciting hasn't it. That Kevin Spacey Yanky knock off is looking a rubbish in comparison...
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,631
    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:

    @DannyShawBBC: This is significant: @JBrokenshire says it would be "virtually impossible" to remove EU citizens who've been in the UK for at least 5 years

    Yes, not sure there are plans to!
    He said that in the HOC last week
  • jonny83jonny83 Posts: 1,270
    SeanT said:

    IF Labour succeed in ousting Jez, what chance half their members depart, along with half the unions...

    Leaving the party bankrupt?

    I don't think the unions will desert them, for sure they will grumble for a bit and not be happy but they will stick by the party. Membership losses will be big but if they are losing those Momentum scum it's a price worth paying in the short-term, there is always a chance some of the moderates will stay and some might even rejoin the party.

    If Labour can get a credible leader on a center ground platform they could get investment from business or wealthy donors again especially if the economy really tanks and the conservative government struggles.

    Getting rid of Jez and the aftermath shortly after is going to painful I would imagine for Labour but it's short-term pain for long-term gain.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,582

    Danny565 said:



    As if the EU encapsulates Labour moderates' whole view. Where on earth is the basis for this exactly? As I said before the very reason why Labour voters voted for Brexit is because of concerns regarding freedom of movement. The man you claim is close to Labour voters' political perspective is incredibly pro-freedom of movement and has far more left-wing views, than even the socially liberal PLP that you claim is miles away from the average Labour voter. As for Labour voters, back in April 2015 polls showed Ed Miliband scoring as a 81% of Labour voters 'approving' of him. Does it mean 81% of Labour voters would walk away from the party if Labour had deposed of Ed Miliband? No, it doesn't in my opinion. https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/vojtflusz6/YG-Archive-Pol-Sunday-Times-results-180415.pdf#page=3


    With respect, have you actually spoken to (m)any Leave Labour voters?

    Immigration was one of the big factors (although on that score, Corbyn and the PLP "moderates" are exactly the same, since the PLP still want to stay in the EU and keep freedom of movement anyway). But other big factors were how much people hated the "career/Establishment politicians" who were leading the Remain campaign, how people were sick of the economy screwing over the little guy, and just generally a scream for ANY change from the terrible status quo. If Labour goes back to a career politician, not promising any real changes from the status quo and sucking up to big businesses, with their main campaigning issues being total fringe issues like feminism, it follows to expect it to fare similarly to the Remain campaign which also based its platform on that.

    But the PLP "moderates" probably know all that secretly, and they're not even bothering to CLAIM they would be more electable than Corbyn anymore - all they want is to preserve their own ideology even if that comes at the cost of a Remain-style electoral meltdown.

    No, what they want is for Labour to continue being a party whose primary focus is on winning power through parliamentary elections. There is nothing else that unites the broad band of Labour MPs who are from all parts of the party, except the hard left (and maybe Andy Burnham)

    They are the establishment. They represent themselves.

    Yeah, whatever :-)

  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,157
    DavidL said:

    One problem with a radical shakeup of the cabinet that seems to be getting overlooked is Mays very small majority. She really can't afford to have a disgruntled dozen sitting on the back benches, not if she is wanting to pass any legislation anyway.

    And that dozen were being organised by Osborne....

    Very unlikely that constructing her govt as she sees fit will of itself provoke discontent. Only people to get snarky will be those who lack self-awareness and hold a higher opinion of themselves than is justified by objective assessment!
  • Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307

    Incidentally, the secret ballot can swing both ways.

    Imagine you're on the NEC. If Corbyn wins, no reprisals. If he loses, people will wonder who voted this way or that. Which situation would make you feel more comfortable, in terms of personal safety?

    There will always be reprisals.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,582
    Danny565 said:

    SeanT said:

    IF Labour succeed in ousting Jez, what chance half their members depart, along with half the unions...

    Leaving the party bankrupt?

    A lot more than half the members, and atleast half of their current voters, IMO.

    And yet we're supposed to believe the PLP are concerned about "electability rather than ideology", when they're happy to have a party without its members/voters/funding, led by Angela Eagle.

    No, they are concerned about Labour being a party that seeks power through Parliamentary elections.

  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    Danny565 said:

    I might've agreed the PLP had good intentions a while ago (after all, I voted for one of the PLP's own in a leadership election just a year ago), but I'm not that naive anymore.

    If the PLP were really concerned about getting Labour elected, they would not be calling for Labour to base their strategy on the main planks of the Remain Campaign, they would not be pushing forward a complete charisma vacuum like Angela Eagle who will NEVER be seen as a potential PM by the public, and they would not be trying to actively split the party as much as they are now. They are only concerned with their own ideological purity, as much as the hard left is.

    It's not about being naive, it's the truth. Angela Eagle is being put forward at this stage not because she'll win a GE but because at least under her the Labour party will SURVIVE. The Labour party as we know it will still be one committed to gaining power through parliamentary democracy. That will NOT be the case if Corbyn's leadership continues. As I stressed before in previous posts, this is no longer about even winning the next GE anymore. This is about the SURVIVAL of a political party. Cameroonian Tories also supported the Remain campaign: that does not mean they do not care about the Tories' electability. Indeed for a long period, it looked as though Remain would win. The PLP are not trying to split the party - they are trying to avoid splitting Labour by getting rid of Corbyn. If Corbyn stays on that is what will cause a split.

    This is not about 'ideological purity'. If that was the case, a cross section of PLP with various different views that depart from the so-called 'centre-ground' would not want Corbyn gone.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,207

    Danny565 said:



    As far as he is concerned, he has the overwhelming support of the membership - and thus the damage to unity comes from 172 traitors in the PLP

    I'll say it again, even if he isn't on the ballot paper, 300,000+ members will write CORBYN on the ballot - and vote for it. Whoever is declared the "winner" will have no authority - except over the MPs. Who will all be deselected. Pretty much the entire Labour Party in Westminster will be different after the next election - except those who were prepared to nominate Jeremy.
    It's possible. But honestly I really don't think it's going to happen. I honestly don't think the vast majority of the 300,000 really will care that much. They'll move on.
    Move on to a breakaway party.
    Why the need to form an existing one? They have plenty of choice:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Left

    Electoral groups[edit]
    Alliance for Green Socialism
    Class War
    Communist League
    Communist Party of Britain
    Respect Party
    Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition
    Socialist Equality Party
    Socialist Labour Party
    Socialist Party of Great Britain
    Workers' Revolutionary Party
    Groups working within TUSC[edit]
    Further information: Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition
    Socialist Party (England and Wales)
    Socialist Workers Party
    Non-electoral groups[edit]
    Anti-revisionists[edit]
    Further information: Anti-revisionism
    Communist Party of Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
    Communist Party of Great Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
    New Communist Party of Britain
    Revolutionary Communist Group
    Revolutionary Communist Party of Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
    Spartacist League
    Others[edit]
    Anarchist Federation
    Communist Party of Great Britain (Provisional Central Committee)
    Communist Workers Organisation
    International Socialist League
    Independent Working Class Association
    World Revolution
    Solidarity Federation
    Workers' Fight
    Groups working within Labour Party[edit]
    Further information: Left Unity (UK)
    Alliance for Workers Liberty
    Left Unity
    Socialist Resistance
    Entryist groups within Labour Party[edit]
    Further information: Entryism
    Socialist Action
    Socialist Appeal
    Workers Power
    The Anarchist Federation sounds a bit, well...too organised for anarchists?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,654
    Indigo said:

    RobD said:

    surbiton said:

    murali_s said:

    Jezza is an unmitigated disaster for the Labour Party but I cannot read those rules in any way other than that he doesn't need to obtain signatures. This will get nasty.

    The courts will back the NEC. The storm will die down in a few months...
    The courts will say it is the internal matter of the Labour Party. Therefore, whatever, NEC says , goes.
    Which implies the Courts can't make judgement on any contract law, since it is an internal matter to the contracting parties.
    No, it means the courts can't make judgements on contract law when the contract defines who the separate arbitration panel is for resolving disputes.

    Most contractees would not be stupid enough to choose a nakedly political outfit as the impartial arbitrators, but this is the Labour Party we are talking about.
    They can and do.
    I am embarrassed to say I have done a few judicial reviews of disciplinary proceedings in golf clubs and the courts had no problem with it. There is Scottish precedent for the Labour Party being taken to court over its internal disciplinary procedures and the application of natural justice. The courts will have no problem in getting involved in this. Corbyn has clear title and interest.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,302

    Danny565 said:



    As if the EU encapsulates Labour moderates' whole view. Where on earth is the basis for this exactly? As I said before the very reason why Labour voters voted for Brexit is because of concerns regarding freedom of movement. The man you claim is close to Labour voters' political perspective is incredibly pro-freedom of movement and has far more left-wing views, than even the socially liberal PLP that you claim is miles away from the average Labour voter. As for Labour voters, back in April 2015 polls showed Ed Miliband scoring as a 81% of Labour voters 'approving' of him. Does it mean 81% of Labour voters would walk away from the party if Labour had deposed of Ed Miliband? No, it doesn't in my opinion. https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/vojtflusz6/YG-Archive-Pol-Sunday-Times-results-180415.pdf#page=3


    With respect, have you actually spoken to (m)any Leave Labour voters?

    Immigration was one of the big factors (although on that score, Corbyn and the PLP "moderates" are exactly the same, since the PLP still want to stay in the EU and keep freedom of movement anyway). But other big factors were how much people hated the "career/Establishment politicians" who were leading the Remain campaign, how people were sick of the economy screwing over the little guy, and just generally a scream for ANY change from the terrible status quo. If Labour goes back to a career politician, not promising any real changes from the status quo and sucking up to big businesses, with their main campaigning issues being total fringe issues like feminism, it follows to expect it to fare similarly to the Remain campaign which also based its platform on that.

    But the PLP "moderates" probably know all that secretly, and they're not even bothering to CLAIM they would be more electable than Corbyn anymore - all they want is to preserve their own ideology even if that comes at the cost of a Remain-style electoral meltdown.

    No, what they want is for Labour to continue being a party whose primary focus is on winning power through parliamentary elections. There is nothing else that unites the broad band of Labour MPs who are from all parts of the party, except the hard left (and maybe Andy Burnham)

    They are the establishment. They represent themselves.

    Yeah, whatever :-)

    LOL

    arise Sir Southam ;-)
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,725
    Jobabob said:

    The NEC will still back Corbyn I think. I would still be surprised if they pull it off. We shall see.

    If NEC members vote to keep their votes secret and then the same member(s) vote to keep Corbyn in the ballot, things have taken yet another bizarre and unexpected twist..
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,239

    Incidentally, the secret ballot can swing both ways.

    Imagine you're on the NEC. If Corbyn wins, no reprisals. If he loses, people will wonder who voted this way or that. Which situation would make you feel more comfortable, in terms of personal safety?

    If NEC splits 17-15 against Corbyn on the ballot, I guess assumptions will be made.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    Politics in the last few weeks has been like watching 10 box sets of 20 episode-long series in a fortnight.

    :smiley:
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    jonny83 said:

    SeanT said:

    IF Labour succeed in ousting Jez, what chance half their members depart, along with half the unions...

    Leaving the party bankrupt?

    I don't think the unions will desert them, for sure they will grumble for a bit and not be happy but they will stick by the party. Membership losses will be big but if they are losing those Momentum scum it's a price worth paying in the short-term, there is always a chance some of the moderates will stay and some might even rejoin the party.

    If Labour can get a credible leader on a center ground platform they could get investment from business or wealthy donors again especially if the economy really tanks and the conservative government struggles.

    Getting rid of Jez and the aftermath shortly after is going to painful I would imagine for Labour but it's short-term pain for long-term gain.
    Even at Blair's pomp, Labour didn't get THAT much funding from big businesses.

    Without the unions and the activists in the constituencies, there would never have been a Labour government, no matter how "centrist" the leadership was.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,582
    Danny565 said:

    Danny565 said:

    With respect, have you actually spoken to (m)any Leave Labour voters?

    Immigration was one of the big factors (although on that score, Corbyn and the PLP "moderates" are exactly the same, since the PLP still want to stay in the EU and keep freedom of movement anyway). But other big factors were how much people hated the "career/Establishment politicians" who were leading the Remain campaign, how people were sick of the economy screwing over the little guy, and just generally a scream for ANY change from the terrible status quo. If Labour goes back to a career politician, not promising any real changes from the status quo and sucking up to big businesses, with their main campaigning issues being total fringe issues like feminism, it follows to expect it to fare similarly to the Remain campaign which also based its platform on that.

    But the PLP "moderates" probably know all that secretly, and they're not even bothering to CLAIM they would be more electable than Corbyn anymore - all they want is to preserve their own ideology even if that comes at the cost of a Remain-style electoral meltdown.

    Yes, I have. militants taking over the party, because once that happens there is no going back anymore.
    I might've agreed the PLP had good intentions a while ago (after all, I voted for one of the PLP's own in a leadership election just a year ago), but I'm not that naive anymore.

    If the PLP were really concerned about getting Labour elected, they would not be calling for Labour to base their strategy on the main planks of the Remain Campaign, they would not be pushing forward a complete charisma vacuum like Angela Eagle who will NEVER be seen as a potential PM by the public, and they would not be trying to actively split the party as much as they are now. They are only concerned with their own ideological purity, as much as the hard left is.

    Nope - they are concerned with Labour continuing to be a party that seeks power through Parliament. There is nothing else that unites them. But that is a pretty fundamental point.

  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,518

    Danny565 said:



    As far as he is concerned, he has the overwhelming support of the membership - and thus the damage to unity comes from 172 traitors in the PLP

    I'll say it again, even if he isn't on the ballot paper, 300,000+ members will write CORBYN on the ballot - and vote for it. Whoever is declared the "winner" will have no authority - except over the MPs. Who will all be deselected. Pretty much the entire Labour Party in Westminster will be different after the next election - except those who were prepared to nominate Jeremy.
    It's possible. But honestly I really don't think it's going to happen. I honestly don't think the vast majority of the 300,000 really will care that much. They'll move on.
    Move on to a breakaway party.
    Why the need to form an existing one? They have plenty of choice:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Left

    Electoral groups[edit]
    Alliance for Green Socialism
    Class War
    Communist League
    Communist Party of Britain
    Respect Party
    Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition
    Socialist Equality Party
    Socialist Labour Party
    Socialist Party of Great Britain
    Workers' Revolutionary Party
    Groups working within TUSC[edit]
    Further information: Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition
    Socialist Party (England and Wales)
    Socialist Workers Party
    Non-electoral groups[edit]
    Anti-revisionists[edit]
    Further information: Anti-revisionism
    Communist Party of Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
    Communist Party of Great Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
    New Communist Party of Britain
    Revolutionary Communist Group
    Revolutionary Communist Party of Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
    Spartacist League
    Others[edit]
    Anarchist Federation
    Communist Party of Great Britain (Provisional Central Committee)
    Communist Workers Organisation
    International Socialist League
    Independent Working Class Association
    World Revolution
    Solidarity Federation
    Workers' Fight
    Groups working within Labour Party[edit]
    Further information: Left Unity (UK)
    Alliance for Workers Liberty
    Left Unity
    Socialist Resistance
    Entryist groups within Labour Party[edit]
    Further information: Entryism
    Socialist Action
    Socialist Appeal
    Workers Power
    The Anarchist Federation sounds a bit, well...too organised for anarchists?
    Quite a lot of those groups strike me as oxymorons.
  • ChaosOdinChaosOdin Posts: 67
    MaxPB said:

    Danny565 said:



    As far as he is concerned, he has the overwhelming support of the membership - and thus the damage to unity comes from 172 traitors in the PLP

    I'll say it again, even if he isn't on the ballot paper, 300,000+ members will write CORBYN on the ballot - and vote for it. Whoever is declared the "winner" will have no authority - except over the MPs. Who will all be deselected. Pretty much the entire Labour Party in Westminster will be different after the next election - except those who were prepared to nominate Jeremy.
    It's possible. But honestly I really don't think it's going to happen. I honestly don't think the vast majority of the 300,000 really will care that much. They'll move on.
    Move on to a breakaway party.
    Why the need to form an existing one? They have plenty of choice:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Left

    Electoral groups[edit]
    Alliance for Green Socialism
    Class War
    Communist League
    Communist Party of Britain
    Respect Party
    Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition
    Socialist Equality Party
    Socialist Labour Party
    Socialist Party of Great Britain
    Workers' Revolutionary Party
    Groups working within TUSC[edit]
    Further information: Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition
    Socialist Party (England and Wales)
    Socialist Workers Party
    Non-electoral groups[edit]
    Anti-revisionists[edit]
    Further information: Anti-revisionism
    Communist Party of Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
    Communist Party of Great Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
    New Communist Party of Britain
    Revolutionary Communist Group
    Revolutionary Communist Party of Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
    Spartacist League
    Others[edit]
    Anarchist Federation
    Communist Party of Great Britain (Provisional Central Committee)
    Communist Workers Organisation
    International Socialist League
    Independent Working Class Association
    World Revolution
    Solidarity Federation
    Workers' Fight
    Groups working within Labour Party[edit]
    Further information: Left Unity (UK)
    Alliance for Workers Liberty
    Left Unity
    Socialist Resistance
    Entryist groups within Labour Party[edit]
    Further information: Entryism
    Socialist Action
    Socialist Appeal
    Workers Power
    The Anarchist Federation sounds a bit, well...too organised for anarchists?
    Quite a lot of those groups strike me as oxymorons.
    The Socialist Workers Party largely consists of people who have never had a proper job for a start..
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,769
    MaxPB said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Jobabob said:

    The NEC will still back Corbyn I think. I would still be surprised if they pull it off. We shall see.

    A slim hope, but some hope.

    The truth is @Jobabob I really don't like losing bets and I have 150 on Corbyn to see out the year :o
    I get the feeling you've played all of the leader markets very poorly.
    I value my Lab leadership book @ ~ £280 right now,

    18 Nandy
    2.7 Watson
    -7.1 D Miliband
    1.8 Benn
    10 McDonnell
    1.5 Jarvis
    5.7 Smith
    0.2 Eagle
    2 Other
    10.5 Lewis
    3.7 Ed Miliband
    0.1 Chuka
    0.1 Burnham

    How is yours going ?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,347
    edited July 2016
    MaxPB said:

    Danny565 said:



    As far as he is concerned, he has the overwhelming support of the membership - and thus the damage to unity comes from 172 traitors in the PLP

    I'll say it again, even if he isn't on the ballot paper, 300,000+ members will write CORBYN on the ballot - and vote for it. Whoever is declared the "winner" will have no authority - except over the MPs. Who will all be deselected. Pretty much the entire Labour Party in Westminster will be different after the next election - except those who were prepared to nominate Jeremy.
    It's possible. But honestly I really don't think it's going to happen. I honestly don't think the vast majority of the 300,000 really will care that much. They'll move on.
    Move on to a breakaway party.
    Why the need to form an existing one? They have plenty of choice:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Left

    Electoral groups[edit]
    Alliance for Green Socialism
    Class War
    Communist League
    Communist Party of Britain
    Respect Party
    Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition
    Socialist Equality Party
    Socialist Labour Party
    Socialist Party of Great Britain
    Workers' Revolutionary Party
    Groups working within TUSC[edit]
    Further information: Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition
    Socialist Party (England and Wales)
    Socialist Workers Party
    Non-electoral groups[edit]
    Anti-revisionists[edit]
    Further information: Anti-revisionism
    Communist Party of Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
    Communist Party of Great Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
    New Communist Party of Britain
    Revolutionary Communist Group
    Revolutionary Communist Party of Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
    Spartacist League
    Others[edit]
    Anarchist Federation
    Communist Party of Great Britain (Provisional Central Committee)
    Communist Workers Organisation
    International Socialist League
    Independent Working Class Association
    World Revolution
    Solidarity Federation
    Workers' Fight
    Groups working within Labour Party[edit]
    Further information: Left Unity (UK)
    Alliance for Workers Liberty
    Left Unity
    Socialist Resistance
    Entryist groups within Labour Party[edit]
    Further information: Entryism
    Socialist Action
    Socialist Appeal
    Workers Power
    The Anarchist Federation sounds a bit, well...too organised for anarchists?
    Quite a lot of those groups strike me as oxymorons.
    What do we want...Anarchy...when do we want it...well we will have to have a meeting about that, then take a democratic vote on the various options proposed....next Wednesday sound good about 8.30pm?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,207
    PlatoSaid said:

    Heather Stewart
    Am told the NEC's decision to hold secret ballot was swung by two female members particularly distressed about threat of intimidation.

    Jo Cox put Jeremy on the ballot - and now her ghost takes him off it...?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,518
    SeanT said:

    Danny565 said:

    SeanT said:

    IF Labour succeed in ousting Jez, what chance half their members depart, along with half the unions...

    Leaving the party bankrupt?

    A lot more than half the members, and atleast half of their current voters, IMO.

    And yet we're supposed to believe the PLP are concerned about "electability rather than ideology", when they're happy to have a party without its members/voters/funding, led by Angela Eagle.
    The members might leave, but that is what the PLP wants! The voters don't care enough...

    Danny565 said:

    SeanT said:

    IF Labour succeed in ousting Jez, what chance half their members depart, along with half the unions...

    Leaving the party bankrupt?

    A lot more than half the members, and atleast half of their current voters, IMO.

    And yet we're supposed to believe the PLP are concerned about "electability rather than ideology", when they're happy to have a party without its members/voters/funding, led by Angela Eagle.
    The members might leave, but that is what the PLP wants! The voters don't care enough...
    Yep. A chunk of angry members will quit, but voters will just be pleased they got rid of the old fool - if they care at all.
    The problem is with the unions. What happens to Labour if they withhold funding.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,582
    IanB2 said:

    Jobabob said:

    The NEC will still back Corbyn I think. I would still be surprised if they pull it off. We shall see.

    If NEC members vote to keep their votes secret and then the same member(s) vote to keep Corbyn in the ballot, things have taken yet another bizarre and unexpected twist..

    That is what will happen, you can pretty much count on it. Labour is Labour, after all, and is programmed to take the wrong decision at just about every turn.

  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited July 2016

    Danny565 said:

    I might've agreed the PLP had good intentions a while ago (after all, I voted for one of the PLP's own in a leadership election just a year ago), but I'm not that naive anymore.

    If the PLP were really concerned about getting Labour elected, they would not be calling for Labour to base their strategy on the main planks of the Remain Campaign, they would not be pushing forward a complete charisma vacuum like Angela Eagle who will NEVER be seen as a potential PM by the public, and they would not be trying to actively split the party as much as they are now. They are only concerned with their own ideological purity, as much as the hard left is.

    It's not about being naive, it's the truth. Angela Eagle is being put forward at this stage not because she'll win a GE but because at least under her the Labour party will SURVIVE. The Labour party as we know it will still be one committed to gaining power through parliamentary democracy. That will NOT be the case if Corbyn's leadership continues. As I stressed before in previous posts, this is no longer about even winning the next GE anymore. This is about the SURVIVAL of a political party. Cameroonian Tories also supported the Remain campaign: that does not mean they do not care about the Tories' electability. Indeed for a long period, it looked as though Remain would win. The PLP are not trying to split the party - they are trying to avoid splitting Labour by getting rid of Corbyn. If Corbyn stays on that is what will cause a split.

    This is not about 'ideological purity'. If that was the case, a cross section of PLP with various different views that depart from the so-called 'centre-ground' would not want Corbyn gone.
    Why on earth would the party have a better chance of surviving with Angela Eagle than it would with Corbyn?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,654
    ToryJim said:

    DavidL said:

    One problem with a radical shakeup of the cabinet that seems to be getting overlooked is Mays very small majority. She really can't afford to have a disgruntled dozen sitting on the back benches, not if she is wanting to pass any legislation anyway.

    And that dozen were being organised by Osborne....

    Very unlikely that constructing her govt as she sees fit will of itself provoke discontent. Only people to get snarky will be those who lack self-awareness and hold a higher opinion of themselves than is justified by objective assessment!
    Even I am not forecasting that the whole parliamentary party will be after her. But her majority is small and it will constrain her.
  • BigIanBigIan Posts: 198

    Danny565 said:



    As far as he is concerned, he has the overwhelming support of the membership - and thus the damage to unity comes from 172 traitors in the PLP

    I'll say it again, even if he isn't on the ballot paper, 300,000+ members will write CORBYN on the ballot - and vote for it. Whoever is declared the "winner" will have no authority - except over the MPs. Who will all be deselected. Pretty much the entire Labour Party in Westminster will be different after the next election - except those who were prepared to nominate Jeremy.
    It's possible. But honestly I really don't think it's going to happen. I honestly don't think the vast majority of the 300,000 really will care that much. They'll move on.
    Move on to a breakaway party.
    Why the need to form an existing one? They have plenty of choice:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Left

    Electoral groups[edit]
    Alliance for Green Socialism
    Class War
    Communist League
    Communist Party of Britain
    Respect Party
    Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition
    Socialist Equality Party
    Socialist Labour Party
    Socialist Party of Great Britain
    Workers' Revolutionary Party
    Groups working within TUSC[edit]
    Further information: Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition
    Socialist Party (England and Wales)
    Socialist Workers Party
    Non-electoral groups[edit]
    Anti-revisionists[edit]
    Further information: Anti-revisionism
    Communist Party of Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
    Communist Party of Great Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
    New Communist Party of Britain
    Revolutionary Communist Group
    Revolutionary Communist Party of Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
    Spartacist League
    Others[edit]
    Anarchist Federation
    Communist Party of Great Britain (Provisional Central Committee)
    Communist Workers Organisation
    International Socialist League
    Independent Working Class Association
    World Revolution
    Solidarity Federation
    Workers' Fight
    Groups working within Labour Party[edit]
    Further information: Left Unity (UK)
    Alliance for Workers Liberty
    Left Unity
    Socialist Resistance
    Entryist groups within Labour Party[edit]
    Further information: Entryism
    Socialist Action
    Socialist Appeal
    Workers Power
    The Anarchist Federation sounds a bit, well...too organised for anarchists?
    "Anarchy Must Be Organised":
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b072zn42
  • At least twenty dead in this italian train crash I see. Apparently both units were four carriage. The front two of one and the front carriage of the other have been obliterated.

    I fear that, unless the trains were very lightly loaded there may be worse news to follow.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,725
    edited July 2016
    PlatoSaid said:

    Politics in the last few weeks has been like watching 10 box sets of 20 episode-long series in a fortnight.

    :smiley:
    A few weeks ago I bought a box set of "1992" - subtitled "power and corruption go hand in hand" - which is, I am assured, a gripping Italian drama series about the turbulent politics of that year. "Fiction is never going to beat Italian history for sheer entertainment value", it says on the box. However British reality has, and I have not yet been able to tear myself away from events long enough to pop in the first DVD...
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,531
    RobD said:

    Did Maggie need nominations after Sir Anthony Meyer (1989) and Michael Heseltine (1990) challenged her?

    Different party, different rules.
    I was just asking!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,732

    RobD said:

    Did Maggie need nominations after Sir Anthony Meyer (1989) and Michael Heseltine (1990) challenged her?

    Different party, different rules.
    I was just asking!
    Tut! :D
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,160
    Pro_Rata said:

    Incidentally, the secret ballot can swing both ways.

    Imagine you're on the NEC. If Corbyn wins, no reprisals. If he loses, people will wonder who voted this way or that. Which situation would make you feel more comfortable, in terms of personal safety?

    If NEC splits 17-15 against Corbyn on the ballot, I guess assumptions will be made.
    Probably not helped by this:

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1niEjEpfyU8ksQ0ETYMZY6cocJjS0icd3h-e39WUSQ8Q/htmlview?usp=sharing&pref=2&pli=1&sle=true
  • Paul_BedfordshirePaul_Bedfordshire Posts: 3,632
    edited July 2016

    Danny565 said:



    As far as he is concerned, he has the overwhelming support of the membership - and thus the damage to unity comes from 172 traitors in the PLP

    I'll say it again, even if he isn't on the ballot paper, 300,000+ members will write CORBYN on the ballot - and vote for it. Whoever is declared the "winner" will have no authority - except over the MPs. Who will all be deselected. Pretty much the entire Labour Party in Westminster will be different after the next election - except those who were prepared to nominate Jeremy.
    It's possible. But honestly I really don't think it's going to happen. I honestly don't think the vast majority of the 300,000 really will care that much. They'll move on.
    Move on to a breakaway party.
    Why the need to form an existing one? They have plenty of choice:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Left

    Electoral groups[edit]
    Alliance for Green Socialism
    Class War
    Communist League
    Communist Party of Britain
    Respect Party
    Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition
    Socialist Equality Party
    Socialist Labour Party
    Socialist Party of Great Britain
    Workers' Revolutionary Party
    Groups working within TUSC[edit]
    Further information: Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition
    Socialist Party (England and Wales)
    Socialist Workers Party
    Non-electoral groups[edit]
    Anti-revisionists[edit]
    Further information: Anti-revisionism
    Communist Party of Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
    Communist Party of Great Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
    New Communist Party of Britain
    Revolutionary Communist Group
    Revolutionary Communist Party of Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
    Spartacist League
    Others[edit]
    Anarchist Federation
    Communist Party of Great Britain (Provisional Central Committee)
    Communist Workers Organisation
    International Socialist League
    Independent Working Class Association
    World Revolution
    Solidarity Federation
    Workers' Fight
    Groups working within Labour Party[edit]
    Further information: Left Unity (UK)
    Alliance for Workers Liberty
    Left Unity
    Socialist Resistance
    Entryist groups within Labour Party[edit]
    Further information: Entryism
    Socialist Action
    Socialist Appeal
    Workers Power
    The Anarchist Federation sounds a bit, well...too organised for anarchists?
    I think you missed a few.

    International league of Trottosocialists.
    Peoples front of Judea
    Popular front of Judea
    Judean Liberation Front
    Judean Peoples Front (Splitters)
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,582

    Incidentally, the secret ballot can swing both ways.

    Imagine you're on the NEC. If Corbyn wins, no reprisals. If he loses, people will wonder who voted this way or that. Which situation would make you feel more comfortable, in terms of personal safety?

    My thinking exactly.

  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,732

    Pro_Rata said:

    Incidentally, the secret ballot can swing both ways.

    Imagine you're on the NEC. If Corbyn wins, no reprisals. If he loses, people will wonder who voted this way or that. Which situation would make you feel more comfortable, in terms of personal safety?

    If NEC splits 17-15 against Corbyn on the ballot, I guess assumptions will be made.
    Probably not helped by this:

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1niEjEpfyU8ksQ0ETYMZY6cocJjS0icd3h-e39WUSQ8Q/htmlview?usp=sharing&pref=2&pli=1&sle=true
    Nice, a scablist...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,725

    At least twenty dead in this italian train crash I see. Apparently both units were four carriage. The front two of one and the front carriage of the other have been obliterated.

    I fear that, unless the trains were very lightly loaded there may be worse news to follow.

    It is a single track back country branch line, so hopefully the trains were not heavily loaded.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,732
    Still think Corbyn should simply dissolve the council permanently.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    Danny565 said:

    Danny565 said:

    I might've agreed the PLP had good intentions a while ago (after all, I voted for one of the PLP's own in a leadership election just a year ago), but I'm not that naive anymore.

    If the PLP were really concerned about getting Labour elected, they would not be calling for Labour to base their strategy on the main planks of the Remain Campaign, they would not be pushing forward a complete charisma vacuum like Angela Eagle who will NEVER be seen as a potential PM by the public, and they would not be trying to actively split the party as much as they are now. They are only concerned with their own ideological purity, as much as the hard left is.

    It's not about being naive, it's the truth. Angela Eagle is being put forward at this stage not because she'll win a GE but because at least under her the Labour party will SURVIVE. The Labour party as we know it will still be one committed to gaining power through parliamentary democracy. That will NOT be the case if Corbyn's leadership continues. As I stressed before in previous posts, this is no longer about even winning the next GE anymore. This is about the SURVIVAL of a political party. Cameroonian Tories also supported the Remain campaign: that does not mean they do not care about the Tories' electability. Indeed for a long period, it looked as though Remain would win. The PLP are not trying to split the party - they are trying to avoid splitting Labour by getting rid of Corbyn. If Corbyn stays on that is what will cause a split.

    This is not about 'ideological purity'. If that was the case, a cross section of PLP with various different views that depart from the so-called 'centre-ground' would not want Corbyn gone.
    Why on earth would the party do better under Angela Eagle than it would under Corbyn?
    Well, as I stated in my previous post Labour will still be a party which believes in parliamentary democracy. They won't be taken over by militant Leftists. Labour will still at some stage be able to win GEs again. If Corbyn stays, Labour will be taken over by the militant Left and will totally dead as a political force for decades, perhaps forever.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,725
    edited July 2016

    Incidentally, the secret ballot can swing both ways.

    Imagine you're on the NEC. If Corbyn wins, no reprisals. If he loses, people will wonder who voted this way or that. Which situation would make you feel more comfortable, in terms of personal safety?

    My thinking exactly.

    True, but these are people who have fought their way up close to the top of the Labour party (aka machine politics central) that we are talking about, not members of the village parish council.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,518
    edited July 2016
    Pulpstar said:

    MaxPB said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Jobabob said:

    The NEC will still back Corbyn I think. I would still be surprised if they pull it off. We shall see.

    A slim hope, but some hope.

    The truth is @Jobabob I really don't like losing bets and I have 150 on Corbyn to see out the year :o
    I get the feeling you've played all of the leader markets very poorly.
    I value my Lab leadership book @ ~ £280 right now,

    18 Nandy
    2.7 Watson
    -7.1 D Miliband
    1.8 Benn
    10 McDonnell
    1.5 Jarvis
    5.7 Smith
    0.2 Eagle
    2 Other
    10.5 Lewis
    3.7 Ed Miliband
    0.1 Chuka
    0.1 Burnham

    How is yours going ?
    I've not played the Labour leadership market. I should do well tomorrow on the PM market (~£200), got paid a decent sum on Tory leader already (~£600). If Corbyn goes then I'll play the next Labour leadership market as they won't have to deal with crazy rules and entryists. If there is a 2016 election then I'll get a very nice payday as I got on the 16/1.
  • Bob__SykesBob__Sykes Posts: 1,178
    PlatoSaid said:

    Politics in the last few weeks has been like watching 10 box sets of 20 episode-long series in a fortnight.

    :smiley:
    I've had such a busy first half of 2016 that my Cowley & Kavanagh General Election of 2015 book has sat on my bookshelf largely untouched since I ordered it in January, and I'm not sure I'm going to bother reading it now - so much has changed, it seems hardly worth bothering...!
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,179

    Politics in the last few weeks has been like watching 10 box sets of 20 episode-long series in a fortnight.

    I've been on the west coast of the US since the Brexit vote and have got used to waking up each day to a huge quantity of big political news to catch up with. Today's NEC shenanigans seem like an uneventful day in comparison with the last couple of weeks.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,732

    Politics in the last few weeks has been like watching 10 box sets of 20 episode-long series in a fortnight.

    I've been on the west coast of the US since the Brexit vote and have got used to waking up each day to a huge quantity of big political news to catch up with. Today's NEC shenanigans seem like an uneventful day in comparison with the last couple of weeks.
    Join the club. Yesterday was a total shocker!
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,514
    DavidL said:

    I tend to agree with those who think the rules do not require the person being challenged, that is the incumbent, to be nominated but ffs, how can you possibly lead the party in Parliament when 3/4 have already passed a no confidence motion in you and 50 are not prepared to back you? This is through the looking glass, it really is.

    You have to change the MPs to represent the members views. It will take a while but it's the only way.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,160

    Politics in the last few weeks has been like watching 10 box sets of 20 episode-long series in a fortnight.

    I've been on the west coast of the US since the Brexit vote and have got used to waking up each day to a huge quantity of big political news to catch up with. Today's NEC shenanigans seem like an uneventful day in comparison with the last couple of weeks.
    It is only early evening here, plenty more from NEC to come.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,769
    MaxPB said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MaxPB said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Jobabob said:

    The NEC will still back Corbyn I think. I would still be surprised if they pull it off. We shall see.

    A slim hope, but some hope.

    The truth is @Jobabob I really don't like losing bets and I have 150 on Corbyn to see out the year :o
    I get the feeling you've played all of the leader markets very poorly.
    I value my Lab leadership book @ ~ £280 right now,

    18 Nandy
    2.7 Watson
    -7.1 D Miliband
    1.8 Benn
    10 McDonnell
    1.5 Jarvis
    5.7 Smith
    0.2 Eagle
    2 Other
    10.5 Lewis
    3.7 Ed Miliband
    0.1 Chuka
    0.1 Burnham

    How is yours going ?
    I've not played the Labour leadership market. I should do well tomorrow on the PM market (~£200), got paid a decent sum on Tory leader already. If Corbyn goes then I'll play the next Labour leadership market as they won't have to deal with crazy rules and entryists.
    I think my net profit was about a hundred 50 quid on the Tories after all said and done (And next PM). As you say, poorly played - nowhere near my Trump book - can't win them all though.
  • VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,535
    Scott_P said:

    @DannyShawBBC: This is significant: @JBrokenshire says it would be "virtually impossible" to remove EU citizens who've been in the UK for at least 5 years

    I thought that anyone who has been legally resident in the UK for 5 years has the right to apply for a right to remain (and six years for citizenship).

    So if Brexit is effective from 31 December 2018 say, anyone arriving in the UK from before 2014 would be able to remain?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,188
    So, suppose the NEC says Corbyn can't stand without nomination, which he won't get. Someone else gets elected. Corbyn takes the NEC to court but presumably that will drag on for months. Replacement well bedded in. Court eventually says rules are clear: no nominations are needed, therefore election invalid.

    What happens then?
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091

    Danny565 said:

    Danny565 said:

    I might've agreed the PLP had good intentions a while ago (after all, I voted for one of the PLP's own in a leadership election just a year ago), but I'm not that naive anymore.

    If the PLP were really concerned about getting Labour elected, they would not be calling for Labour to base their strategy on the main planks of the Remain Campaign, they would not be pushing forward a complete charisma vacuum like Angela Eagle who will NEVER be seen as a potential PM by the public, and they would not be trying to actively split the party as much as they are now. They are only concerned with their own ideological purity, as much as the hard left is.

    It's not about being naive, it's the truth. Angela Eagle is being put forward at this stage not because she'll win a GE but because at least under her the Labour party will SURVIVE. The Labour party as we know it will still be one committed to gaining power through parliamentary democracy. That will NOT be the case if Corbyn's leadership continues. As I stressed before in previous posts, this is no longer about even winning the next GE anymore. This is about the SURVIVAL of a political party. Cameroonian Tories also supported the Remain campaign: that does not mean they do not care about the Tories' electability. Indeed for a long period, it looked as though Remain would win. The PLP are not trying to split the party - they are trying to avoid splitting Labour by getting rid of Corbyn. If Corbyn stays on that is what will cause a split.

    This is not about 'ideological purity'. If that was the case, a cross section of PLP with various different views that depart from the so-called 'centre-ground' would not want Corbyn gone.
    Why on earth would the party do better under Angela Eagle than it would under Corbyn?
    Well, as I stated in my previous post Labour will still be a party which believes in parliamentary democracy. They won't be taken over by militant Leftists. Labour will still at some stage be able to win GEs again. If Corbyn stays, Labour will be taken over by the militant Left and will totally dead as a political force for decades, perhaps forever.
    These are just assertions, without any reasoning to support them. WHY would Eagle mean Labour would at some stage be able to win GEs again? WHY would she win more seats in an election than Corbyn? She has less charisma than Corbyn, seems less of a plausible PM, is more of a hated "career politician" - once again, the Remain campaign being rejected in the Labour heartlands shows how successful she would be.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,662
    edited July 2016
    Mr. Rata, Corbyn was in the room, so he'll have an idea how people voted.

    Mr. Observer, and it won't be just self-interest. I imagine many NEC members are friends, and may worry voting to keep Corbyn off the ballot may lead to their friends getting into uncomfortable situations.

    Could go either way. But the rules, if adhered to, do seem pretty clear that Corbyn should be on the ballot.

    Edited extra bit: Mr. Glenn, give it time. This is very significant stuff.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    ToryJim said:

    DavidL said:

    One problem with a radical shakeup of the cabinet that seems to be getting overlooked is Mays very small majority. She really can't afford to have a disgruntled dozen sitting on the back benches, not if she is wanting to pass any legislation anyway.

    And that dozen were being organised by Osborne....

    Very unlikely that constructing her govt as she sees fit will of itself provoke discontent. Only people to get snarky will be those who lack self-awareness and hold a higher opinion of themselves than is justified by objective assessment!
    The Conservatives will see the abyss that is the current Labour party. It is literally too dangerous to play political silly buggers. Labour must not be allowed power until it has sorted itself out and returned from Planet Ideologue.
  • Pulpstar said:

    MaxPB said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Jobabob said:

    The NEC will still back Corbyn I think. I would still be surprised if they pull it off. We shall see.

    A slim hope, but some hope.

    The truth is @Jobabob I really don't like losing bets and I have 150 on Corbyn to see out the year :o
    I get the feeling you've played all of the leader markets very poorly.
    I value my Lab leadership book @ ~ £280 right now,

    18 Nandy
    2.7 Watson
    -7.1 D Miliband
    1.8 Benn
    10 McDonnell
    1.5 Jarvis
    5.7 Smith
    0.2 Eagle
    2 Other
    10.5 Lewis
    3.7 Ed Miliband
    0.1 Chuka
    0.1 Burnham

    How is yours going ?
    I value mine about minus £160 so far, seem to have been on the wrong end of a few ramps.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,442
    Pulpstar said:

    MaxPB said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MaxPB said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Jobabob said:

    The NEC will still back Corbyn I think. I would still be surprised if they pull it off. We shall see.

    A slim hope, but some hope.

    The truth is @Jobabob I really don't like losing bets and I have 150 on Corbyn to see out the year :o
    I get the feeling you've played all of the leader markets very poorly.
    I value my Lab leadership book @ ~ £280 right now,

    18 Nandy
    2.7 Watson
    -7.1 D Miliband
    1.8 Benn
    10 McDonnell
    1.5 Jarvis
    5.7 Smith
    0.2 Eagle
    2 Other
    10.5 Lewis
    3.7 Ed Miliband
    0.1 Chuka
    0.1 Burnham

    How is yours going ?
    I've not played the Labour leadership market. I should do well tomorrow on the PM market (~£200), got paid a decent sum on Tory leader already. If Corbyn goes then I'll play the next Labour leadership market as they won't have to deal with crazy rules and entryists.
    I think my net profit was about a hundred 50 quid on the Tories after all said and done (And next PM). As you say, poorly played - nowhere near my Trump book - can't win them all though.
    Pulps don't get worried if you make "only" £150... but do get worried if you're quick to label it so.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    PlatoSaid said:

    Politics in the last few weeks has been like watching 10 box sets of 20 episode-long series in a fortnight.

    :smiley:
    I've had such a busy first half of 2016 that my Cowley & Kavanagh General Election of 2015 book has sat on my bookshelf largely untouched since I ordered it in January, and I'm not sure I'm going to bother reading it now - so much has changed, it seems hardly worth bothering...!
    I'd a stack of Private Eyes still in the plastic wrap.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,725
    edited July 2016
    Danny565 said:

    Danny565 said:

    Danny565 said:

    I might've agreed the PLP had good intentions a while ago (after all, I voted for one of the PLP's own in a leadership election just a year ago), but I'm not that naive anymore.

    If the PLP were really concerned about getting Labour elected, they would not be calling for Labour to base their strategy on the main planks of the Remain Campaign, they would not be pushing forward a complete charisma vacuum like Angela Eagle who will NEVER be seen as a potential PM by the public, and they would not be trying to actively split the party as much as they are now. They are only concerned with their own ideological purity, as much as the hard left is.

    It's not about being naive, it's the truth. Angela Eagle is being put forward at this stage not because she'll win a GE but because at least under her the Labour party will SURVIVE. The Labour party as we know it will still be one committed to gaining power through parliamentary democracy. That will NOT be the case if Corbyn's leadership continues. As I stressed before in previous posts, this is no longer about even winning the next GE anymore. This is about the SURVIVAL of a political party. Cameroonian Tories also supported the Remain campaign: that does not mean they do not care about the Tories' electability. Indeed for a long period, it looked as though Remain would win. The PLP are not trying to split the party - they are trying to avoid splitting Labour by getting rid of Corbyn. If Corbyn stays on that is what will cause a split.

    This is not about 'ideological purity'. If that was the case, a cross section of PLP with various different views that depart from the so-called 'centre-ground' would not want Corbyn gone.
    Why on earth would the party do better under Angela Eagle than it would under Corbyn?
    Well, as I stated in my previous post Labour will still be a party which believes in parliamentary democracy. They won't be taken over by militant Leftists. Labour will still at some stage be able to win GEs again. If Corbyn stays, Labour will be taken over by the militant Left and will totally dead as a political force for decades, perhaps forever.
    These are just assertions, without any reasoning to support them. WHY would Eagle mean Labour would at some stage be able to win GEs again? WHY would she win more seats in an election than Corbyn? She has less charisma than Corbyn, seems less of a plausible PM, is more of a hated "career politician" - once again, the Remain campaign being rejected in the Labour heartlands shows how successful she would be.
    +1. "Labour will still at some stage be able to win GEs again" Why?? Maybe so, maybe not. I am sure a Liberal in the 1920s would have thought the same.
  • madasafishmadasafish Posts: 659
    Danny565 said:

    Danny565 said:

    Danny565 said:

    I might've agreed the PLP had good intentions a while ago (after all, I voted for one of the PLP's own in a leadership election just a year ago), but I'm not that naive anymore.

    If the PLP were really concerned about getting Labour elected, they would not be calling for Labour to base their strategy on the main planks of the Remain Campaign, they would not be pushing forward a complete charisma vacuum like Angela Eagle who will NEVER be seen as a potential PM by the public, and they would not be trying to actively split the party as much as they are now. They are only concerned with their own ideological purity, as much as the hard left is.

    It's not about being naive, it's the truth. Angela Eagle is being put forward at this stage not because she'll win a GE but because at least under her the Labour party will SURVIVE. The Labour party as we know it will still be one committed to gaining power through parliamentary democracy. That will NOT be the case if Corbyn's leadership continues. As I stressed before in previous posts, this is no longer about even winning the next GE anymore. This is about the SURVIVAL of a political party. Cameroonian Tories also supported the Remain campaign: that does not mean they do not care about the Tories' electability. Indeed for a long period, it looked as though Remain would win. The PLP are not trying to split the party - they are trying to avoid splitting Labour by getting rid of Corbyn. If Corbyn stays on that is what will cause a split.

    This is not about 'ideological purity'. If that was the case, a cross section of PLP with various different views that depart from the so-called 'centre-ground' would not want Corbyn gone.
    Why on earth would the party do better under Angela Eagle than it would under Corbyn?
    Well, as I stated in my previous post Labour will still be a party which believes in parliamentary democracy. They won't be taken over by militant Leftists. Labour will still at some stage be able to win GEs again. If Corbyn stays, Labour will be taken over by the militant Left and will totally dead as a political force for decades, perhaps forever.
    These are just assertions, without any reasoning to support them. WHY would Eagle mean Labour would at some stage be able to win GEs again? WHY would she win more seats in an election than Corbyn? She has less charisma than Corbyn, seems less of a plausible PM, is more of a hated "career politician" - once again, the Remain campaign being rejected in the Labour heartlands shows how successful she would be.
    Man criticises another's assertions and then makes his own...
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039

    Seems the threats of physical intimidation have made some NEC members demand a secret ballot.

    A nice own goal from Momentum's hard core thugs.

    Theresa May's first PMQs:

    "You know what some people call you – the Nasty Party."

    Would be fitting.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,732

    Seems the threats of physical intimidation have made some NEC members demand a secret ballot.

    A nice own goal from Momentum's hard core thugs.

    Theresa May's first PMQs:

    "You know what some people call you – the Nasty Party."

    Would be fitting.
    "We were the Nasty Party once" :D
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,518
    edited July 2016
    Pulpstar said:

    MaxPB said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MaxPB said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Jobabob said:

    The NEC will still back Corbyn I think. I would still be surprised if they pull it off. We shall see.

    A slim hope, but some hope.

    The truth is @Jobabob I really don't like losing bets and I have 150 on Corbyn to see out the year :o
    I get the feeling you've played all of the leader markets very poorly.
    I value my Lab leadership book @ ~ £280 right now,

    18 Nandy
    2.7 Watson
    -7.1 D Miliband
    1.8 Benn
    10 McDonnell
    1.5 Jarvis
    5.7 Smith
    0.2 Eagle
    2 Other
    10.5 Lewis
    3.7 Ed Miliband
    0.1 Chuka
    0.1 Burnham

    How is yours going ?
    I've not played the Labour leadership market. I should do well tomorrow on the PM market (~£200), got paid a decent sum on Tory leader already. If Corbyn goes then I'll play the next Labour leadership market as they won't have to deal with crazy rules and entryists.
    I think my net profit was about a hundred 50 quid on the Tories after all said and done (And next PM). As you say, poorly played - nowhere near my Trump book - can't win them all though.
    Just checked and I got ~£600 yesterday as I laid Osborne in the leader market more than I did in the PM market, for some reason he was shorter in the leadership market for longer.

    If Trump wins I'll collect a fair amount, my spreadsheet says I'm green on Hillary as well but in the tens rather than hundreds. Come on Trump!
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,531
    RobD said:

    Still think Corbyn should simply dissolve the council permanently.

    Corbyn should crush the rebellion with one swift stroke :lol:
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,654
    FF43 said:

    So, suppose the NEC says Corbyn can't stand without nomination, which he won't get. Someone else gets elected. Corbyn takes the NEC to court but presumably that will drag on for months. Replacement well bedded in. Court eventually says rules are clear: no nominations are needed, therefore election invalid.

    What happens then?

    They would probably seek an injunction against the running of the leadership election before the question was determined. That hearing would be the key. If he didn't get his interim order it is unlikely the case would proceed. If he does get it some sort of compromise is likely because the timescale would be impossible for the party to cope with.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,769

    Pulpstar said:

    MaxPB said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Jobabob said:

    The NEC will still back Corbyn I think. I would still be surprised if they pull it off. We shall see.

    A slim hope, but some hope.

    The truth is @Jobabob I really don't like losing bets and I have 150 on Corbyn to see out the year :o
    I get the feeling you've played all of the leader markets very poorly.
    I value my Lab leadership book @ ~ £280 right now,

    18 Nandy
    2.7 Watson
    -7.1 D Miliband
    1.8 Benn
    10 McDonnell
    1.5 Jarvis
    5.7 Smith
    0.2 Eagle
    2 Other
    10.5 Lewis
    3.7 Ed Miliband
    0.1 Chuka
    0.1 Burnham

    How is yours going ?
    I value mine about minus £160 so far, seem to have been on the wrong end of a few ramps.
    Yeah but you've bringing home pretty much the value of my house on Trump !
  • madasafishmadasafish Posts: 659
    Barnesian said:

    DavidL said:

    I tend to agree with those who think the rules do not require the person being challenged, that is the incumbent, to be nominated but ffs, how can you possibly lead the party in Parliament when 3/4 have already passed a no confidence motion in you and 50 are not prepared to back you? This is through the looking glass, it really is.

    You have to change the MPs to represent the members views. It will take a while but it's the only way.
    Yes: sod what the voters want: democracy requires the voters are represented by people selected by the leader.

    Sounds like criticism of Blair: with the names changed.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737

    RobD said:

    surbiton said:

    murali_s said:

    Jezza is an unmitigated disaster for the Labour Party but I cannot read those rules in any way other than that he doesn't need to obtain signatures. This will get nasty.

    The courts will back the NEC. The storm will die down in a few months...
    The courts will say it is the internal matter of the Labour Party. Therefore, whatever, NEC says , goes.
    Which implies the Courts can't make judgement on any contract law, since it is an internal matter to the contracting parties.
    No, it means the courts can't make judgements on contract law when the contract defines who the separate arbitration panel is for resolving disputes.

    Most contractees would not be stupid enough to choose a nakedly political outfit as the impartial arbitrators, but this is the Labour Party we are talking about.
    I think the rule is the internal procedures must be exhausted before running to court. The body must be given an opportunity to correct its own errors.

    The NEC has been sued several times in the past.
  • IanB2 said:

    At least twenty dead in this italian train crash I see. Apparently both units were four carriage. The front two of one and the front carriage of the other have been obliterated.

    I fear that, unless the trains were very lightly loaded there may be worse news to follow.

    It is a single track back country branch line, so hopefully the trains were not heavily loaded.
    Its more equivalent to the Sheffield - Manchester route - not full blown intercity but busy interurban, it is electrified and is so busy that it will be double tracked in a few years (doubling of part of the route is already underway with the contract to double the crash stretch not far from letting. It at least happened at 11.30 not in the middle of Rush Hour

    The current death rate is five persons per destroyed carriage which is very low. I fear that in the three most damaged carriages there will be little left to identify until the forensic teams get to work. Moorgate and the first coach of the Networker train at Ladbroke grove are the only accidents I can remember in recent (last 40 or so years) history that have resulted in anywhere near that level of destruction of carriages. Three carriages are basically matchwood and one is destroyed on one side.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Proposals for the new constituency boundaries will be published on 13th September:

    http://boundarycommissionforengland.independent.gov.uk/guide-to-the-2018-review-published/
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,531
    RobD said:

    Seems the threats of physical intimidation have made some NEC members demand a secret ballot.

    A nice own goal from Momentum's hard core thugs.

    Theresa May's first PMQs:

    "You know what some people call you – the Nasty Party."

    Would be fitting.
    "We were the Nasty Party once" :D
    "Weak, weak.... a week is a long time in politics!" :lol:
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,769
    MaxPB said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MaxPB said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MaxPB said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Jobabob said:

    The NEC will still back Corbyn I think. I would still be surprised if they pull it off. We shall see.

    A slim hope, but some hope.

    The truth is @Jobabob I really don't like losing bets and I have 150 on Corbyn to see out the year :o
    I get the feeling you've played all of the leader markets very poorly.
    I value my Lab leadership book @ ~ £280 right now,

    18 Nandy
    2.7 Watson
    -7.1 D Miliband
    1.8 Benn
    10 McDonnell
    1.5 Jarvis
    5.7 Smith
    0.2 Eagle
    2 Other
    10.5 Lewis
    3.7 Ed Miliband
    0.1 Chuka
    0.1 Burnham

    How is yours going ?
    I've not played the Labour leadership market. I should do well tomorrow on the PM market (~£200), got paid a decent sum on Tory leader already. If Corbyn goes then I'll play the next Labour leadership market as they won't have to deal with crazy rules and entryists.
    I think my net profit was about a hundred 50 quid on the Tories after all said and done (And next PM). As you say, poorly played - nowhere near my Trump book - can't win them all though.
    Just checked and I got ~£600 yesterday as I laid Osborne in the leader market more than I did in the PM market, for some reason he was shorter in the leadership market for longer.

    If Trump wins I'll collect a fair amount, my spreadsheet says I'm green on Hillary as well but in the tens rather than hundreds. Come on Trump!
    I'm in the same position too :)
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,625
    17-15 to hold secret ballot

    Looks like plotters win round 1 to me now
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,442
    I think Mike Pence is too short @ evens in the VP nomination market. Yes, he is one of the firm contenders but this is Trump, who has previously demonstrated his mastery of the media.

    However as a betting opportunity it is safer to conclude that if Pence is not unveiled as VP in the next week, it won't be him. The stars align for Pence this week, based on Trump's visit and his own gubernatorial contest in the 'fall'.
This discussion has been closed.