politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Keiran Pedley on why Jeremy Corbyn should not automatically
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"'Desperate' commuters on Southern trains are considering a fare strike and will hold a demonstration at Victoria station tomorrow in a "show of anger".
Hundreds of people have expressed an interest in the rush hour demonstration, scheduled for 5.30pm, claiming lives are being "ruined" by the company's service."
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/southern-railway-desperate-commuters-to-hold-victoria-station-protest-a3292251.html0 -
She may well do so.SeanT said:
No. We'll enter EEA and everyone can stay where they are. Unless the mad Leadsom wins.surbiton said:
So, the 800k will go back ? How will I get my Polish bread ?SeanT said:
From my reading of European websites, the Poles are amongst the most sympathetic to Brexit.HaroldO said:
I am spending Xmas in Poland, fully expect to be cross questioned by everyone I meet as to why we voted Brexit.SeanT said:
Yes indeed. I have several dinners and lunches with some Swiss dudes and dudettes, quite high up in the tourism industry.HYUFD said:
Mind you you are at least going to a non-EU nation and one of our future likely partners in EFTA, would be interesting to see if, as a Brit, you get a warm welcome, I hope so!SeanT said:You bastard LEAVE voters. Just booked a hire car for my trip to Switzerland tomorrow
Jeepers. The £.
Pffffff!!
Will be fascinating to get their take on Brexit. In my experience, so far, Europeans are deeply intrigued by what we've done - in good and bad ways.
I may just stay drunk the entire time.0 -
On topic.
"A workaround to the current flawed system should be that any leader that has lost a no confidence motion in parliament should be expected to seek the required number of nominations to stand again."
Yes but under the current system, Corbyn doesn't have to, nor is he going to, stand down.
Flawed or not, the system supports Corbyn being on ballot regardless. Wishes and desired workarounds won't change that.
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Chuka Umunna would lead to utter wipeout for Labour outside of London. Even more than anyone else, he really is the Remain Campaign personified.HYUFD said:
Chuka Umunna, Dan Jarvis to name but a few, however what Labour needs now is not an election winner but someone to steady the ship, a Michael Howard to Corbyn's IDSDanny565 said:
Stalking horse for who? Which specific candidate would perform better in a general election than Corbyn would?Monty said:
Eagle is obviously a stalking horse. Surely, you can see that?surbiton said:
And, the person who will beat the Tories is a wet lettuce ? You must be joking !Monty said:
Because they are entirely different electorates. The sea of hard-left entryists and £3 Tory idiots (step forward several PB posters) will re-elect Corbyn as they have no interest in Labour winning elections. The country wants a reasonable alternative to Conservatives. Labour's problem in a nutshell.Danny565 said:Regardless of what technicalities can be found for Corbyn to be kept off the ballot, the bottom line is:
If Angela Eagle (or any other "moderate") thinks she can't even beat CORBYN in an election, how the hell is she going to have a chance against a far more formidable opponent in the Tories at the next General Election??
"Corbyn is not doing well" is not the same thing as "there is someone else available who would do better than Corbyn".
I still know absolutely nothing about Dan Jarvis, which in some ways is quite telling in itself (a truly talented politician would surely have done SOMETHING interesting after 5 years in parliament??).0 -
Probably about 50% of the PLP, to be honest. But Dan Jarvis, Chuka, Yvette Cooper, Stella Creasy to name a few.Danny565 said:
Stalking horse for who? Which specific candidate would perform better in a general election than Corbyn would?Monty said:
Eagle is obviously a stalking horse. Surely, you can see that?surbiton said:
And, the person who will beat the Tories is a wet lettuce ? You must be joking !Monty said:
Because they are entirely different electorates. The sea of hard-left entryists and £3 Tory idiots (step forward several PB posters) will re-elect Corbyn as they have no interest in Labour winning elections. The country wants a reasonable alternative to Conservatives. Labour's problem in a nutshell.Danny565 said:Regardless of what technicalities can be found for Corbyn to be kept off the ballot, the bottom line is:
If Angela Eagle (or any other "moderate") thinks she can't even beat CORBYN in an election, how the hell is she going to have a chance against a far more formidable opponent in the Tories at the next General Election??
"Corbyn is not doing well" is not the same thing as "there is someone else available who would do better than Corbyn".
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Oh yes but I don't believe a word that comes out of her mouth.HYUFD said:
Leadsom has said quite clearly she wants no freedom of movement which means no single market, May has said she wants freedom of movement, just more controlled freedom of movementfelix said:
Agreed - I actually expect we will either way to be honest - unless Leadsom is determined to trash the UK economy completely.HYUFD said:
If May gets in we will join EFTA and the EFTA Norwegians were the most pro UK in the pollingfelix said:
Did you see the latest polling among EU countries? Or don't you want to look when it doesn't fit your silly narrative.SeanT said:
I have me doots.surbiton said:
As they will be soon.HYUFD said:
Given England has fought more wars against France than any other nation on earth, closely followed by Scotland, that is not that surprising, especially considering from the Jacobite rebellion back the Scots and French were often on the same sidemalcolmg said:
Our old friends the French for meTheScreamingEagles said:I trust all true English people are cheering for our oldest ally, Portugal, against the French.
The way the EU is responding to Brexit - more integration, hegemonic Franco-German alliance, forced euro membership - makes rejoining the EU look increasingly unpalatable by the day.
Will Scotland really divorce from England to become a tiny colony of Brussels? Really??
Hm. Or will they look at that famous arc of prosperity, including Iceland and Norway, and note that it is in EFTA, not the EU? Just like England?0 -
Call it defeatism if you want, but I think it's realism. Corbyn IS shite, but, after hearing from people just how AWFULLY the Remain campaign was perceived, I do genuinely believe he would do better in a general election than any of these "moderates" who, like Remain, would just be career politicians speaking in jargon, pushing forward the same old tired "steady as she goes" message.alex. said:
Anyone who does not limit the extent of options to their Shadow ministerial team to around 50 MPs would do better. Trying to argue that it doesn't matter if Corbyn is shite, everyone else would be shiter is just defeatism. Would you use the same argument if he emerged from the next election with 130 MPs?Danny565 said:
Stalking horse for who? Which specific candidate would perform better in a general election than Corbyn would?Monty said:
Eagle is obviously a stalking horse. Surely, you can see that?surbiton said:
And, the person who will beat the Tories is a wet lettuce ? You must be joking !Monty said:
Because they are entirely different electorates. The sea of hard-left entryists and £3 Tory idiots (step forward several PB posters) will re-elect Corbyn as they have no interest in Labour winning elections. The country wants a reasonable alternative to Conservatives. Labour's problem in a nutshell.Danny565 said:Regardless of what technicalities can be found for Corbyn to be kept off the ballot, the bottom line is:
If Angela Eagle (or any other "moderate") thinks she can't even beat CORBYN in an election, how the hell is she going to have a chance against a far more formidable opponent in the Tories at the next General Election??
"Corbyn is not doing well" is not the same thing as "there is someone else available who would do better than Corbyn".0 -
Danny is clear that Corbyn is the best person to lead Labour. That's a perfectly reasonable position. What it says, of course, is that Danny also believes Labour is no longer a serious party of potential government. He's absolutely right.Monty said:
Probably about 50% of the PLP, to be honest. But Dan Jarvis, Chuka, Yvette Cooper, Stella Creasy to name a few.Danny565 said:
Stalking horse for who? Which specific candidate would perform better in a general election than Corbyn would?Monty said:
Eagle is obviously a stalking horse. Surely, you can see that?surbiton said:
And, the person who will beat the Tories is a wet lettuce ? You must be joking !Monty said:
Because they are entirely different electorates. The sea of hard-left entryists and £3 Tory idiots (step forward several PB posters) will re-elect Corbyn as they have no interest in Labour winning elections. The country wants a reasonable alternative to Conservatives. Labour's problem in a nutshell.Danny565 said:Regardless of what technicalities can be found for Corbyn to be kept off the ballot, the bottom line is:
If Angela Eagle (or any other "moderate") thinks she can't even beat CORBYN in an election, how the hell is she going to have a chance against a far more formidable opponent in the Tories at the next General Election??
"Corbyn is not doing well" is not the same thing as "there is someone else available who would do better than Corbyn".
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Oh rubbish, he could potentially win whole swathes of middle England suburbia and the working class Labour heartlands which voted Leave are never going to vote Tory ever, even if some of them vote UKIP under FPTP Labour would still hold the seats. Jarvis has not been given a chance by CorbynDanny565 said:
Chuka Umunna would lead to utter wipeout for Labour outside of London. Even more than anyone else, he really is the Remain Campaign personified.HYUFD said:
Chuka Umunna, Dan Jarvis to name but a few, however what Labour needs now is not an election winner but someone to steady the ship, a Michael Howard to Corbyn's IDSDanny565 said:
Stalking horse for who? Which specific candidate would perform better in a general election than Corbyn would?Monty said:
Eagle is obviously a stalking horse. Surely, you can see that?surbiton said:
And, the person who will beat the Tories is a wet lettuce ? You must be joking !Monty said:
Because they are entirely different electorates. The sea of hard-left entryists and £3 Tory idiots (step forward several PB posters) will re-elect Corbyn as they have no interest in Labour winning elections. The country wants a reasonable alternative to Conservatives. Labour's problem in a nutshell.Danny565 said:Regardless of what technicalities can be found for Corbyn to be kept off the ballot, the bottom line is:
If Angela Eagle (or any other "moderate") thinks she can't even beat CORBYN in an election, how the hell is she going to have a chance against a far more formidable opponent in the Tories at the next General Election??
"Corbyn is not doing well" is not the same thing as "there is someone else available who would do better than Corbyn".
I still know absolutely nothing about Dan Jarvis, which in some ways is quite telling in itself (a truly talented politician would surely have done SOMETHING interesting after 5 years in parliament??).
I suggest you watch a clip of Sky news today, it interviewed working class Labour voters in the north, not one had a positive word to say about Corbyn, the general tone was not up to the job, even if he had a few good ideas he was unable to communicate them, incompetent and the sooner he is replaced the better.0 -
I got as far as 'two speed Europe' and went back to watching the footy.
https://twitter.com/Schuldensuehner/status/7522268427703664650 -
We need controls on immigration even if it means a classic British fudge, as long as low skilled migration is controlled most of the country will be happy.kle4 said:
She may well do so.SeanT said:
No. We'll enter EEA and everyone can stay where they are. Unless the mad Leadsom wins.surbiton said:
So, the 800k will go back ? How will I get my Polish bread ?SeanT said:
From my reading of European websites, the Poles are amongst the most sympathetic to Brexit.HaroldO said:
I am spending Xmas in Poland, fully expect to be cross questioned by everyone I meet as to why we voted Brexit.SeanT said:
Yes indeed. I have several dinners and lunches with some Swiss dudes and dudettes, quite high up in the tourism industry.HYUFD said:
Mind you you are at least going to a non-EU nation and one of our future likely partners in EFTA, would be interesting to see if, as a Brit, you get a warm welcome, I hope so!SeanT said:You bastard LEAVE voters. Just booked a hire car for my trip to Switzerland tomorrow
Jeepers. The £.
Pffffff!!
Will be fascinating to get their take on Brexit. In my experience, so far, Europeans are deeply intrigued by what we've done - in good and bad ways.
I may just stay drunk the entire time.0 -
I suspect you are underestimating the strength of the Labour brand as evidenced by the results achieved by Corbyn. I'm dubious that a GE would replicate the referendum result in terms of the issue affecting votes to the degree you fear. Mind you I'm not Labour.Danny565 said:
Chuka Umunna would lead to utter wipeout for Labour outside of London. Even more than anyone else, he really is the Remain Campaign personified.HYUFD said:
Chuka Umunna, Dan Jarvis to name but a few, however what Labour needs now is not an election winner but someone to steady the ship, a Michael Howard to Corbyn's IDSDanny565 said:
Stalking horse for who? Which specific candidate would perform better in a general election than Corbyn would?Monty said:
Eagle is obviously a stalking horse. Surely, you can see that?surbiton said:
And, the person who will beat the Tories is a wet lettuce ? You must be joking !Monty said:
Because they are entirely different electorates. The sea of hard-left entryists and £3 Tory idiots (step forward several PB posters) will re-elect Corbyn as they have no interest in Labour winning elections. The country wants a reasonable alternative to Conservatives. Labour's problem in a nutshell.Danny565 said:Regardless of what technicalities can be found for Corbyn to be kept off the ballot, the bottom line is:
If Angela Eagle (or any other "moderate") thinks she can't even beat CORBYN in an election, how the hell is she going to have a chance against a far more formidable opponent in the Tories at the next General Election??
"Corbyn is not doing well" is not the same thing as "there is someone else available who would do better than Corbyn".
I still know absolutely nothing about Dan Jarvis, which in some ways is quite telling in itself (a truly talented politician would surely have done SOMETHING interesting after 5 years in parliament??).0 -
Portugal are about 7 on Betfair. Value?
https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/#/football/market/1.1255116600 -
The middle England suburbia and working-class Labour heartlands which just overwhelmingly voted Leave, are not going to vote for Chuka, the Remain campaign personified.HYUFD said:
Oh rubbish, he would potentially win whole swathes of middle England suburbia and the working class Labour heartlands which voted Leave are never to vote Tory ever even if some of them vote UKIP under FPTP Labour would still hold the seats. Jarvis has not been given a chance by CorbynDanny565 said:
Chuka Umunna would lead to utter wipeout for Labour outside of London. Even more than anyone else, he really is the Remain Campaign personified.HYUFD said:
Chuka Umunna, Dan Jarvis to name but a few, however what Labour needs now is not an election winner but someone to steady the ship, a Michael Howard to Corbyn's IDSDanny565 said:
Stalking horse for who? Which specific candidate would perform better in a general election than Corbyn would?Monty said:
Eagle is obviously a stalking horse. Surely, you can see that?surbiton said:
And, the person who will beat the Tories is a wet lettuce ? You must be joking !Monty said:
Because they are entirely different electorates. The sea of hard-left entryists and £3 Tory idiots (step forward several PB posters) will re-elect Corbyn as they have no interest in Labour winning elections. The country wants a reasonable alternative to Conservatives. Labour's problem in a nutshell.Danny565 said:Regardless of what technicalities can be found for Corbyn to be kept off the ballot, the bottom line is:
If Angela Eagle (or any other "moderate") thinks she can't even beat CORBYN in an election, how the hell is she going to have a chance against a far more formidable opponent in the Tories at the next General Election??
"Corbyn is not doing well" is not the same thing as "there is someone else available who would do better than Corbyn".
I still know absolutely nothing about Dan Jarvis, which in some ways is quite telling in itself (a truly talented politician would surely have done SOMETHING interesting after 5 years in parliament??).
I suggest you watch a clip of Sky news today, it interviewed working class Labour voters in the north, not one had a positive word to say about Corbyn, the general tone was not up to the job, even if he had a few good ideas he was unable to communicate them, incompetent and the sooner he is replaced the better.
And I have no doubt that the working-class Labour voters didn't have a positive word to say about Corbyn, but that does not prove they would have anything more positive to say about any of the alternative candidates.0 -
There has always been a strain of left wing politics that believes that the British people will come running if we only offer a true ideologically pure left alternative. And if they don't it doesn't matter as at least we are pure.Danny565 said:
If the existing membership have turned against Corbyn, then why do the "moderates" apparently not think they could beat him if he was on the ballot?Wulfrun_Phil said:
"The PLP trying to rig leadership elections and to split the party for their own egos". Your perspective, not mine. I think that Neil Kinnock had a better take on it, as has Keiran Pedley above.Danny565 said:
Corbyn voters are by no means limited to just the "post GE intake". And Labour members who are Corbyn-sceptic, but who will nonetheless be outraged at the PLP trying to rig leadership elections and to split the party for their own egos, will go even deeper into the long-term membership base.Wulfrun_Phil said:
The ground troops won't by and large be affected, since very few of the post GE intake care for proper campaigning with the public at large as opposed to resolutionary socialism and groupthink on social media. Nor will it be the end of the world even if the income from memberships is halved and thus falls back to the levels that allowed the party to sustain the 2015 general election campaign. As for the income from the £3 "supporters"......Danny565 said:kle4 said:I suppose the thinking behind keeping Corbyn off the ballot is it might cause an exodus of lefty members (presuming usual challenges)?
Many of the existing membership who voted for Corbyn have turned against him. But, more importantly, look at the polls and you'll see that there are all too few "Corbyn voters" amongst the wider public. Most electors think Corbyn should go and are yearning for an effective parliamentary opposition with a new leader.
And there aren't that many Corbyn voters among the wider public, but in my view there would be even fewer Eagle voters in the public (or voters for any of the Labour "moderates"). To prove that, we just have to look at Corbyn's May local elections result (a win over the Tories, albeit an unspectacular win) as opposed to the Remain Campaign (a DEFEAT despite far more institutional advantages).
Corbyn has harnessed that howl of rage and attracted the usual suspects from the SWP and Greens who don't want to win elections.
Those of us who do see the value in actually getting elected and having the opportunity to implement policies need to get the party back.
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The problem seems to be that the unions have found a very clever way to destroy the company without technically breaking the law on unauthorised strike action (i.e. coordinated sick days).AndyJS said:"'Desperate' commuters on Southern trains are considering a fare strike and will hold a demonstration at Victoria station tomorrow in a "show of anger".
Hundreds of people have expressed an interest in the rush hour demonstration, scheduled for 5.30pm, claiming lives are being "ruined" by the company's service."
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/southern-railway-desperate-commuters-to-hold-victoria-station-protest-a3292251.html
There's actually not much that Southern can do to improve things - if they surrender they may as well hand over the keys to the company; if they fight on their customers continue to get angry. I'd hope they are training a bunch of new drivers, but they are in a tough spot.0 -
He didnt vote for Corbyn. I think you will find.SouthamObserver said:
Danny is clear that Corbyn is the best person to lead Labour. That's a perfectly reasonable position. What it says, of course, is that Danny also believes Labour is no longer a serious party of potential government. He's absolutely right.Monty said:
Probably about 50% of the PLP, to be honest. But Dan Jarvis, Chuka, Yvette Cooper, Stella Creasy to name a few.Danny565 said:
Stalking horse for who? Which specific candidate would perform better in a general election than Corbyn would?Monty said:
Eagle is obviously a stalking horse. Surely, you can see that?surbiton said:
And, the person who will beat the Tories is a wet lettuce ? You must be joking !Monty said:
Because they are entirely different electorates. The sea of hard-left entryists and £3 Tory idiots (step forward several PB posters) will re-elect Corbyn as they have no interest in Labour winning elections. The country wants a reasonable alternative to Conservatives. Labour's problem in a nutshell.Danny565 said:Regardless of what technicalities can be found for Corbyn to be kept off the ballot, the bottom line is:
If Angela Eagle (or any other "moderate") thinks she can't even beat CORBYN in an election, how the hell is she going to have a chance against a far more formidable opponent in the Tories at the next General Election??
"Corbyn is not doing well" is not the same thing as "there is someone else available who would do better than Corbyn".0 -
The idea that Jeremy Corbyn is not a career politician who does not speak in jargon is an intriguing one. How old is he, how long has he been an MP and what did he do before that?Danny565 said:
Call it defeatism if you want, but I think it's realism. Corbyn IS shite, but, after hearing from people just how AWFULLY the Remain campaign was perceived, I do genuinely believe he would do better in a general election than any of these "moderates" who, like Remain, would just be career politicians speaking in jargon, pushing forward the same old tired "steady as she goes" message.alex. said:
Anyone who does not limit the extent of options to their Shadow ministerial team to around 50 MPs would do better. Trying to argue that it doesn't matter if Corbyn is shite, everyone else would be shiter is just defeatism. Would you use the same argument if he emerged from the next election with 130 MPs?Danny565 said:
Stalking horse for who? Which specific candidate would perform better in a general election than Corbyn would?Monty said:
Eagle is obviously a stalking horse. Surely, you can see that?surbiton said:
And, the person who will beat the Tories is a wet lettuce ? You must be joking !Monty said:
Because they are entirely different electorates. The sea of hard-left entryists and £3 Tory idiots (step forward several PB posters) will re-elect Corbyn as they have no interest in Labour winning elections. The country wants a reasonable alternative to Conservatives. Labour's problem in a nutshell.Danny565 said:Regardless of what technicalities can be found for Corbyn to be kept off the ballot, the bottom line is:
If Angela Eagle (or any other "moderate") thinks she can't even beat CORBYN in an election, how the hell is she going to have a chance against a far more formidable opponent in the Tories at the next General Election??
"Corbyn is not doing well" is not the same thing as "there is someone else available who would do better than Corbyn".
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May's local elections, where Labour got just 31% of the vote and lost seats, was one of the worst council election results of any opposition leader ever. Worse than Hague, worse than Foot, worse than Ed Miliband, worse even than IDS. May I also remind you Corbyn was part of the Remain campaign, though he was such an inept part you might not have noticedDanny565 said:
If the existing membership have turned against Corbyn, then why do the "moderates" apparently not think they could beat him if he was on the ballot?Wulfrun_Phil said:
"The PLP trying to rig leadership elections and to split the party for their own egos". Your perspective, not mine. I think that Neil Kinnock had a better take on it, as has Keiran Pedley above.Danny565 said:
Corbyn voters are by no means limited to just the "post GE intake". And Labour members who are Corbyn-sceptic, but who will nonetheless be outraged at the PLP trying to rig leadership elections and to split the party for their own egos, will go even deeper into the long-term membership base.Wulfrun_Phil said:
The ground troops won't by and large be affected, since very few of the post GE intake care for proper campaigning with the public at large as opposed to resolutionary socialism and groupthink on social media. Nor will it be the end of the world even if the income from memberships is halved and thus falls back to the levels that allowed the party to sustain the 2015 general election campaign. As for the income from the £3 "supporters"......Danny565 said:
So they WANT to lose more than half the membership??kle4 said:I suppose the thinking behind keeping Corbyn off the ballot is it might cause an exodus of lefty members (presuming the non far lefties who also voted for him are more prepared to stick around), rather than force the MPs to potentially have to leave if they challenge him and fail (given their actions have gone far beyond usual challenges)?
Where exactly do they think their ground troops and money is going to come from?
Many of the existing membership who voted for Corbyn have turned against him. But, more importantly, look at the polls and you'll see that there are all too few "Corbyn voters" amongst the wider public. Most electors think Corbyn should go and are yearning for an effective parliamentary opposition with a new leader.
And there aren't that many Corbyn voters among the wider public, but in my view there would be even fewer Eagle voters in the public (or voters for any of the Labour "moderates"). To prove that, we just have to look at Corbyn's May local elections result (a win over the Tories, albeit an unspectacular win) as opposed to the Remain Campaign (a DEFEAT despite far more institutional advantages).0 -
Looks like he will this time, though.bigjohnowls said:
He didnt vote for Corbyn. I think you will find.SouthamObserver said:
Danny is clear that Corbyn is the best person to lead Labour. That's a perfectly reasonable position. What it says, of course, is that Danny also believes Labour is no longer a serious party of potential government. He's absolutely right.Monty said:
Probably about 50% of the PLP, to be honest. But Dan Jarvis, Chuka, Yvette Cooper, Stella Creasy to name a few.Danny565 said:
Stalking horse for who? Which specific candidate would perform better in a general election than Corbyn would?Monty said:
Eagle is obviously a stalking horse. Surely, you can see that?surbiton said:
And, the person who will beat the Tories is a wet lettuce ? You must be joking !Monty said:
Because they are entirely different electorates. The sea of hard-left entryists and £3 Tory idiots (step forward several PB posters) will re-elect Corbyn as they have no interest in Labour winning elections. The country wants a reasonable alternative to Conservatives. Labour's problem in a nutshell.Danny565 said:Regardless of what technicalities can be found for Corbyn to be kept off the ballot, the bottom line is:
If Angela Eagle (or any other "moderate") thinks she can't even beat CORBYN in an election, how the hell is she going to have a chance against a far more formidable opponent in the Tories at the next General Election??
"Corbyn is not doing well" is not the same thing as "there is someone else available who would do better than Corbyn".
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What do we want - Southern TrainsAndyJS said:"'Desperate' commuters on Southern trains are considering a fare strike and will hold a demonstration at Victoria station tomorrow in a "show of anger".
Hundreds of people have expressed an interest in the rush hour demonstration, scheduled for 5.30pm, claiming lives are being "ruined" by the company's service."
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/southern-railway-desperate-commuters-to-hold-victoria-station-protest-a3292251.html
When do we want it - 18.00, calling at Clapham Jct, East Croydon, Redhill and Gatwick Airport0 -
As a long time poster on here says: Do your own research.
So I did and from a helicopter down point of view I'm not sure the procedure is certain that Corbyn needs the nominations.
Perhaps the PLP need to just work a policy of grinding the guy down over a bit longer time span. They have time yet and a challenge now is not just seen as an end in itself but an act in a long long wearing down process.
Corbyn is vulnerable to it.0 -
Nationalisation of Southern Trains is the answer. Corbyn is the man.JohnO said:
What do we want - Southern TrainsAndyJS said:"'Desperate' commuters on Southern trains are considering a fare strike and will hold a demonstration at Victoria station tomorrow in a "show of anger".
Hundreds of people have expressed an interest in the rush hour demonstration, scheduled for 5.30pm, claiming lives are being "ruined" by the company's service."
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/southern-railway-desperate-commuters-to-hold-victoria-station-protest-a3292251.html
When do we want it - 18.00, calling at Clapham Jct, East Croydon, Redhill and Gatwick Airport0 -
I was joking but apparently the moth now does have a twitter account.paulyork64 said:
Moth tweets: i knew i'd done my job.paulyork64 said:
Poisonous moth sacked for ineffective bite.paulyork64 said:Poisonous moth ends ronaldos match
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SO - I think if you listen carefully to Danny he's hardly a dyed in the wool Corbyn obsessive. If somebody else within the party comes up with a credible and inspiring agenda then perhaps people will listen. But that didn't happen last year and perhaps because of the need to appear loyal to Corbyn in public, we've not heard much since.0
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Chuka was almost entirely invisible during the referendum campaign. Just like Corbyn. The personification of Remain is David Cameron. Theresa May was on the Remain side too.Danny565 said:
The middle England suburbia and working-class Labour heartlands which just overwhelmingly voted Leave, are not going to vote for Chuka, the Remain campaign personified.HYUFD said:
Oh rubbish, he would potentially win wholet been given a chance by CorbynDanny565 said:
Chuka Umunna would lead to utter wipeout for Labour outside of London. Even more than anyone else, he really is the Remain Campaign personified.HYUFD said:
Chuka Umunna, Dan Jarvis to name but a few, however what Labour needs now is not an election winner but someone to steady the ship, a Michael Howard to Corbyn's IDSDanny565 said:
Stalking horse for who? Which specific candidate would perform better in a general election than Corbyn would?Monty said:
Eagle is obviously a stalking horse. Surely, you can see that?surbiton said:
And, the person who will beat the Tories is a wet lettuce ? You must be joking !Monty said:
Because they are entirely different electorates. The sea of hard-left entryists and £3 Tory idiots (step forward several PB posters) will re-elect Corbyn as they have no interest in Labour winning elections. The country wants a reasonable alternative to Conservatives. Labour's problem in a nutshell.Danny565 said:Regardless of what technicalities can be found for Corbyn to be kept off the ballot, the bottom line is:
If Angela Eagle (or any other "moderate") thinks she can't even beat CORBYN in an election, how the hell is she going to have a chance against a far more formidable opponent in the Tories at the next General Election??
"Corbyn is not doing well" is not the same thing as "there is someone else available who would do better than Corbyn".
I still know absolutely nothing about Dan Jarvis, which in some ways is quite telling in itself (a truly talented politician would surely have done SOMETHING interesting after 5 years in parliament??).
I suggest you watch a clip of Sky news today, it interviewed working class Labour voters in the north, not one had a positive word to say about Corbyn, the general tone was not up to the job, even if he had a few good ideas he was unable to communicate them, incompetent and the sooner he is replaced the better.
And I have no doubt that the working-class Labour voters didn't have a positive word to say about Corbyn, but that does not prove they would have anything more positive to say about any of the alternative candidates.
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Saw more of Chuka than any other possible leader...SouthamObserver said:
Chuka was almost entirely invisible during the referendum campaign. Just like Corbyn. The personification of Remain is David Cameron. Theresa May was on the Remain side too.Danny565 said:
The middle England suburbia and working-class Labour heartlands which just overwhelmingly voted Leave, are not going to vote for Chuka, the Remain campaign personified.HYUFD said:
Oh rubbish, he would potentially win wholet been given a chance by CorbynDanny565 said:
Chuka Umunna would lead to utter wipeout for Labour outside of London. Even more than anyone else, he really is the Remain Campaign personified.HYUFD said:
Chuka Umunna, Dan Jarvis to name but a few, however what Labour needs now is not an election winner but someone to steady the ship, a Michael Howard to Corbyn's IDSDanny565 said:
Stalking horse for who? Which specific candidate would perform better in a general election than Corbyn would?Monty said:
Eagle is obviously a stalking horse. Surely, you can see that?surbiton said:
And, the person who will beat the Tories is a wet lettuce ? You must be joking !Monty said:
Because they are entirely different electorates. The sea of hard-left entryists and £3 Tory idiots (step forward several PB posters) will re-elect Corbyn as they have no interest in Labour winning elections. The country wants a reasonable alternative to Conservatives. Labour's problem in a nutshell.Danny565 said:Regardless of what technicalities can be found for Corbyn to be kept off the ballot, the bottom line is:
"Corbyn is not doing well" is not the same thing as "there is someone else available who would do better than Corbyn".
I still know absolutely nothing about Dan Jarvis, which in some ways is quite telling in itself (a truly talented politician would surely have done SOMETHING interesting after 5 years in parliament??).
I suggest you watch a clip of Sky news today, it interviewed working class Labour voters in the north, not one had a positive word to say about Corbyn, the general tone was not up to the job, even if he had a few good ideas he was unable to communicate them, incompetent and the sooner he is replaced the better.
And I have no doubt that the working-class Labour voters didn't have a positive word to say about Corbyn, but that does not prove they would have anything more positive to say about any of the alternative candidates.0 -
There has always been a strain of left wing politics that believes that the British people will come running if we only offer a true ideologically pure left alternative. And if they don't it doesn't matter as at least we are pure.
Corbyn has harnessed that howl of rage and attracted the usual suspects from the SWP and Greens who don't want to win elections.
Those of us who do see the value in actually getting elected and having the opportunity to implement policies need to get the party back.
I just despair at the mindset of those who do not wish to win elections. How the hell do you expect to change anything substantial - 38 degrees petitions?
I asked the household undergraduate/Corbynite how he genuinely thought it would go when he's door knocking in the Leave heartlands in Yorkshire, with Jez as leader. Even he had to admit they were utterly ruined, only a very decent local MP was preventing the seat going UKIP.0 -
He is very clear that Corbyn is the best person to lead Labour. I respect his viewpoint, though I think it is completely wrong.FrankBooth said:SO - I think if you listen carefully to Danny he's hardly a dyed in the wool Corbyn obsessive. If somebody else within the party comes up with a credible and inspiring agenda then perhaps people will listen. But that didn't happen last year and perhaps because of the need to appear loyal to Corbyn in public, we've not heard much since.
0 -
Why not? May of course also backed Remain and there are plenty of suburban seats like Reading and Enfield Southgate which voted Remain and have Tory MPs and also plenty like Crawley, Worcester etc which only voted Leave by about the national average.Danny565 said:
The middle England suburbia and working-class Labour heartlands which just overwhelmingly voted Leave, are not going to v.HYUFD said:
Oh rubbish, he would potentially win whole swathes of middle England suburbia and the working class Labour heartlands which voted Leave are never to vote Tory ever even if some of them vote UKIP under FPTP Labour would still hold the seats. Jarvis has not been given a chance by CorbynDanny565 said:
Chuka Umunn.HYUFD said:
Chuka Umunna, Dan Jarvis to name but a few, however what Labour needs now is not an election winner but someone to steady the ship, a Michael Howard to Corbyn's IDSDanny565 said:
Stalking horse for w".Monty said:
Eagle is obviously a stalking horse. Surely, you can see that?surbiton said:
And, the person who will beat the Tories is a wet lettuce ? You must be joking !Monty said:
Because they are entirely different electorates. The sea of hard-left entryists and £3 Tory idiots (step forward several PB posters) will re-elect Corbyn as they have no interest in Labour winning elections. The country wants a reasonable alternative to Conservatives. Labour's problem in a nutshell.Danny565 said:Regardless of what technicalities can be found for Corbyn to be kept off the ballot, the bottom line is:
If Angela Eagle (or any other "moderate") thinks she can't even beat CORBYN in an election, how the hell is she going to have a chance against a far more formidable opponent in the Tories at the next General Election??
I suggest you watch a clip of Sky news today, it interviewed working class Labour voters in the north, not one had a positive word to say about Corbyn, the general tone was not up to the job, even if he had a few good ideas he was unable to communicate them, incompetent and the sooner he is replaced the better.
I expect the working-class Labour voters might at least respect someone who wears a suit and tie or dresses smartly and does not look like Worzel Gummidge and thinks the answers to the country's problems are not all found under Karl Marx!0 -
Can't do it without power and Corbyn has other priorities.surbiton said:
Nationalisation of Southern Trains is the answer. Corbyn is the man.JohnO said:
What do we want - Southern TrainsAndyJS said:"'Desperate' commuters on Southern trains are considering a fare strike and will hold a demonstration at Victoria station tomorrow in a "show of anger".
Hundreds of people have expressed an interest in the rush hour demonstration, scheduled for 5.30pm, claiming lives are being "ruined" by the company's service."
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/southern-railway-desperate-commuters-to-hold-victoria-station-protest-a3292251.html
When do we want it - 18.00, calling at Clapham Jct, East Croydon, Redhill and Gatwick Airport
0 -
Nationalisation and then rolling over to the unions?surbiton said:
Nationalisation of Southern Trains is the answer. Corbyn is the man.JohnO said:
What do we want - Southern TrainsAndyJS said:"'Desperate' commuters on Southern trains are considering a fare strike and will hold a demonstration at Victoria station tomorrow in a "show of anger".
Hundreds of people have expressed an interest in the rush hour demonstration, scheduled for 5.30pm, claiming lives are being "ruined" by the company's service."
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/southern-railway-desperate-commuters-to-hold-victoria-station-protest-a3292251.html
When do we want it - 18.00, calling at Clapham Jct, East Croydon, Redhill and Gatwick Airport0 -
The English Locals saw LAB gain seats compared to EICIPMs high point of 2012.HYUFD said:
May's local elections, where Labour got just 31% of the vote and lost seats, was one of the worst council election results of any opposition leader ever. Worse than Hague, worse than Foot, worse than Ed Miliband, worse even than IDS. May I also remind you Corbyn was part of the Remain campaign, though he was such an inept part you might not have noticedDanny565 said:
If the existing membership have turned against Corbyn, then why do the "moderates" apparently not think they could beat him if he was on the ballot?Wulfrun_Phil said:
"The PLP trying to rig leadership elections and to split the party for their own egos". Your perspective, not mine. I think that Neil Kinnock had a better take on it, as has Keiran Pedley above.Danny565 said:
Corbyn voters are by no means limited to just the "post GE intake". And Labour members who are Corbyn-sceptic, but who will nonetheless be outraged at the PLP trying to rig leadership elections and to split the party for their own egos, will go even deeper into the long-term membership base.Wulfrun_Phil said:
The ground troops won't by and large be affected, since very few of the post GE intake care for proper campaigning with the public at large as opposed to resolutionary socialism and groupthink on social media. Nor will it be the end of the world even if the income from memberships is halved and thus falls back to the levels that allowed the party to sustain the 2015 general election campaign. As for the income from the £3 "supporters"......Danny565 said:
So they WANT to lose more than half the membership??kle4 said:I suppose the thinking behind keeping Corbyn off the ballot is it might cause an exodus of lefty members (presuming the non far lefties who also voted for him are more prepared to stick around), rather than force the MPs to potentially have to leave if they challenge him and fail (given their actions have gone far beyond usual challenges)?
Where exactly do they think their ground troops and money is going to come from?
Agreed that wasnt the media narrative who slavishly repeated the Tory line you just quoted.
However reality is not the PLPs strong suit as i note they now use the Tory narrative from the night
Why should we expect anything better0 -
Chuka is urban metrosexual Labour - that is why he will not play well in the Northern seats. He just doesn't have the reach. Plus his flipflopping last year just makes him look weak.SouthamObserver said:
Chuka was almost entirely invisible during the referendum campaign. Just like Corbyn. The personification of Remain is David Cameron. Theresa May was on the Remain side too.Danny565 said:
The middle England suburbia and working-class Labour heartlands which just overwhelmingly voted Leave, are not going to vote for Chuka, the Remain campaign personified.HYUFD said:
Oh rubbish, he would potentially win wholet been given a chance by CorbynDanny565 said:
Chuka Umunna would lead to utter wipeout for Labour outside of London. Even more than anyone else, he really is the Remain Campaign personified.HYUFD said:
Chuka Umunna, Dan Jarvis to name but a few, however what Labour needs now is not an election winner but someone to steady the ship, a Michael Howard to Corbyn's IDSDanny565 said:
Stalking horse for who? Which specific candidate would perform better in a general election than Corbyn would?Monty said:
Eagle is obviously a stalking horse. Surely, you can see that?surbiton said:
And, the person who will beat the Tories is a wet lettuce ? You must be joking !Monty said:
utshell.Danny565 said:Regardless of what technicalities can be found for Corbyn to be kept off the ballot, the bottom line is:
If Angela Eagle (or any other "moderate") thinks she can't even beat CORBYN in an election, how the hell is she going to have a chance against a far more formidable opponent in the Tories at the next General Election??
"Corbyn is not doing well" is not the same thing as "there is someone else available who would do better than Corbyn".
I still know absolutely nothing about Dan Jarvis, which in some ways is quite telling in itself (a truly talented politician would surely have done SOMETHING interesting after 5 years in parliament??).
as unable to communicate them, incompetent and the sooner he is replaced the better.
And I have no doubt that the working-class Labour voters didn't have a positive word to say about Corbyn, but that does not prove they would have anything more positive to say about any of the alternative candidates.
Most of us know what he wants to keep hidden. He needs to get over and start rebuilding some honesty points.0 -
It was interesting to read the arguments on LabourLeave.
It just shows how strange and diverse motivations were during EUref that people like me, Charles, Sean and Plato were on the same side as the leader of ASLEF.0 -
Portugal on penalties is my hunch.AndyJS said:Portugal are about 7 on Betfair. Value?
https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/#/football/market/1.1255116600 -
Time for someone to open a book on how long before Sean gets himself banned again....0
-
Labour lost 18 seats and their 31% voteshare was risiblebigjohnowls said:
The English Locals saw LAB gain seats compared to EICIPMs high point of 2012.HYUFD said:
May's local elections, where Labour got just 31% of the vote and lost seats, was one of the worst council election results of any opposition leader ever. Worse than Hague, worse than Foot, worse than Ed Miliband, worse even than IDS. May I also remind you Corbyn was part of the Remain campaign, though he was such an inept part you might not have noticedDanny565 said:
If the existing membership have turned against Corbyn, then why do the "moderates" apparently not think they could beat him if he was on the ballot?Wulfrun_Phil said:
"The PLP trying to rig leadership elections and to split the party for their own egos". Your perspective, not mine. I think that Neil Kinnock had a better take on it, as has Keiran Pedley above.Danny565 said:
Corbyn voters are by no means limited to just the "post GE intake". And Labour members who are Corbyn-sceptic, but who will nonetheless be outraged at the PLP trying to rig leadership elections and to split the party for their own egos, will go even deeper into the long-term membership base.Wulfrun_Phil said:
The ground troops won't by and large be affected, since very few of the post GE intake care for proper campaigning with the public at large as opposed to resolutionary socialism and groupthink on social media. Nor will it be the end of the world even if the income from memberships is halved and thus falls back to the levels that allowed the party to sustain the 2015 general election campaign. As for the income from the £3 "supporters"......Danny565 said:
So they WANT to lose more than half the membership??kle4 said:I suppose the thinking behind keeping Corbyn off the ballot is it might cause an exodus of lefty members (presuming the non far lefties who also voted for him are more prepared to stick around), rather than force the MPs to potentially have to leave if they challenge him and fail (given their actions have gone far beyond usual challenges)?
Where exactly do they think their ground troops and money is going to come from?
Agreed that wasnt the media narrative who slavishly repeated the Tory line you just quoted.
However reality is not the PLPs strong suit as i note they now use the Tory narrative from the night
Why should we expect anything better0 -
Just had a thought; if Nick Palmer really believes that Blair "made an honest mistake" over Iraq , then he can't be a pure Corbynite so surely he must be purged if Jez wins?0
-
Has anyone asked the question about who would contend to lead a breakaway Labour/SDP party?0
-
Yep, it's utterly insane. We urgently need a viable left of centre party with relevant policies for the 21st century. It looks like the Conservatives are veering to the right again. The country needs a viable opposition. If Labour cannot reform itself and become that party then a new one is needed.AramintaMoonbeamQC said:
There has always been a strain of left wing politics that believes that the British people will come running if we only offer a true ideologically pure left alternative. And if they don't it doesn't matter as at least we are pure.
Corbyn has harnessed that howl of rage and attracted the usual suspects from the SWP and Greens who don't want to win elections.
Those of us who do see the value in actually getting elected and having the opportunity to implement policies need to get the party back.
I just despair at the mindset of those who do not wish to win elections. How the hell do you expect to change anything substantial - 38 degrees petitions?
I asked the household undergraduate/Corbynite how he genuinely thought it would go when he's door knocking in the Leave heartlands in Yorkshire, with Jez as leader. Even he had to admit they were utterly ruined, only a very decent local MP was preventing the seat going UKIP.
Oh, and we urgently need electoral reform regardless.
0 -
I think it was a Silver Y moth. They left the lights on all last night, and turned the stadium into the world's largest moth trap....paulyork64 said:
I was joking but apparently the moth now does have a twitter account.paulyork64 said:
Moth tweets: i knew i'd done my job.paulyork64 said:
Poisonous moth sacked for ineffective bite.paulyork64 said:Poisonous moth ends ronaldos match
0 -
Works for David Beckham, who I think is often considered one of Britain's best dressed menfoxinsoxuk said:
TSE in the fashion police? The world has gone truly mad.TheScreamingEagles said:
I though Corbyn unusually well turned out this morning. At least his clothes fitted for once!
http://milton-green.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/David-Beckham-In-Ralph-Lauren-Wimbledon-Championships.jpg0 -
Surely that would have to go to arbitration?SquareRoot said:Has anyone asked the question about who would contend to lead a breakaway Labour/SDP party?
Any update from Charlie Falconer?0 -
Lets hope so.SeanT said:
Yes. She might. If she markets that anti-sharia, anti-PC manifesto - a kind of UKIP-lite - she will appeal to many Tory members. I felt a visceral, atavistic twinge myself.kle4 said:
She may well do so.SeanT said:
No. We'll enter EEA and everyone can stay where they are. Unless the mad Leadsom wins.surbiton said:
So, the 800k will go back ? How will I get my Polish bread ?SeanT said:
From my reading of European websites, the Poles are amongst the most sympathetic to Brexit.HaroldO said:
I am spending Xmas in Poland, fully expect to be cross questioned by everyone I meet as to why we voted Brexit.SeanT said:
Yes indeed. I have several dinners and lunches with some Swiss dudes and dudettes, quite high up in the tourism industry.HYUFD said:
Mind you you are at least going to a non-EU nation and one of our future likely partners in EFTA, would be interesting to see if, as a Brit, you get a warm welcome, I hope so!SeanT said:You bastard LEAVE voters. Just booked a hire car for my trip to Switzerland tomorrow
Jeepers. The £.
Pffffff!!
Will be fascinating to get their take on Brexit. In my experience, so far, Europeans are deeply intrigued by what we've done - in good and bad ways.
I may just stay drunk the entire time.
HOWEVER it should be remembered most active Tory members are, by definition, bourgeois property owners. They REALLY won't like the economic threat of Hard Brexit.
May will win, I think, because of this economic fearfulness. I'd be fairly amazed if Tories go for a second revolution, after the turmoil of Brexit.
Hard Brexit might end up with no Brexit and lefty told you so-ing until the cows come home.0 -
I wonder what Marine Le Pen makes of this. 7 out of 11 French players on the pitch are black.0
-
HY - genuinely interrstdd, what are your political views at the moment? Don't I recall you being, at some point, a Tory activist?HYUFD said:
Labour lost 18 seats and their 31% voteshare was risiblebigjohnowls said:
The English Locals saw LAB gain seats compared to EICIPMs high point of 2012.HYUFD said:
May's local elections, where Labour got just 31% of the vote and lost seats, was one of the worst council election results of any opposition leader ever. Worse than Hague, worse than Foot, worse than Ed Miliband, worse even than IDS. May I also remind you Corbyn was part of the Remain campaign, though he was such an inept part you might not have noticedDanny565 said:
If the existing membership have turned against Corbyn, then why do the "moderates" apparently not think they could beat him if he was on the ballot?Wulfrun_Phil said:
"The PLP trying to rig leadership elections and to split the party for their own egos". Your perspective, not mine. I think that Neil Kinnock had a better take on it, as has Keiran Pedley above.Danny565 said:
Corbyn voters are by no means limited to just the "post GE intake". And Labour members who are Corbyn-sceptic, but who will nonetheless be outraged at the PLP trying to rig leadership elections and to split the party for their own egos, will go even deeper into the long-term membership base.Wulfrun_Phil said:
The ground troops won't by and large be affected, since very few of the post GE intake care for proper campaigning with the public at large as opposed to resolutionary socialism and groupthink on social media. Nor will it be the end of the world even if the income from memberships is halved and thus falls back to the levels that allowed the party to sustain the 2015 general election campaign. As for the income from the £3 "supporters"......Danny565 said:
So they WANT to lose more than half the membership??kle4 said:I suppose the thinking behind keeping Corbyn off the ballot is it might cause an exodus of lefty members (presuming the non far lefties who also voted for him are more prepared to stick around), rather than force the MPs to potentially have to leave if they challenge him and fail (given their actions have gone far beyond usual challenges)?
Where exactly do they think their ground troops and money is going to come from?
Agreed that wasnt the media narrative who slavishly repeated the Tory line you just quoted.
However reality is not the PLPs strong suit as i note they now use the Tory narrative from the night
Why should we expect anything better0 -
Not what I said. I think there's quite a chance that Corbyn could be reelected by a widened Labour membership now wholly and utterly out of touch with British political opinion. The extent to which the party has opened itself up to entryism from the far left and anyone with its worst interests at heart ensures that. That's why the only check left in the system that gives the parliamentary party some say is now so important, and rightly so for the reasons Kieran Pedley outlines above.Danny565 said:
If the existing membership have turned against Corbyn, then why do the "moderates" apparently not think they could beat him if he was on the ballot?Wulfrun_Phil said:
"The PLP trying to rig leadership elections and to split the party for their own egos". Your perspective, not mine. I think that Neil Kinnock had a better take on it, as has Keiran Pedley above.
Many of the existing membership who voted for Corbyn have turned against him. But, more importantly, look at the polls and you'll see that there are all too few "Corbyn voters" amongst the wider public. Most electors think Corbyn should go and are yearning for an effective parliamentary opposition with a new leader.
And there aren't that many Corbyn voters among the wider public, but in my view there would be even fewer Eagle voters in the public (or voters for any of the Labour "moderates"). To prove that, we just have to look at Corbyn's May local elections result (a win over the Tories, albeit an unspectacular win) as opposed to the Remain Campaign (a DEFEAT despite far more institutional advantages).
You make risible claims that the outcome of the referendum can be taken as a poll on the political support for an alternative leader to Corbyn, whoever that might be, and you're just using them to try and avoid addressing my point about Corbyn's manifest unpopularity with the wider public. Nor were the 2015 May elections the win for Labour that you claim when you focus on the national vote share, which given polling since may well turn out to be the least bad of the low points under Corbyn.0 -
LabourLeave had the best campaign. If only Corbyn had fronted it - he could have owned the result, and told a vast swathe of the unconnected and disaffected that he represented their worries....John_M said:It was interesting to read the arguments on LabourLeave.
It just shows how strange and diverse motivations were during EUref that people like me, Charles, Sean and Plato were on the same side as the leader of ASLEF.0 -
You mean the Union which blackmails commuters ?John_M said:It was interesting to read the arguments on LabourLeave.
It just shows how strange and diverse motivations were during EUref that people like me, Charles, Sean and Plato were on the same side as the leader of ASLEF.0 -
Nationalisation is banned under EU law. It won't be post Brexit.Mortimer said:
Nationalisation and then rolling over to the unions?surbiton said:
Nationalisation of Southern Trains is the answer. Corbyn is the man.JohnO said:
What do we want - Southern TrainsAndyJS said:"'Desperate' commuters on Southern trains are considering a fare strike and will hold a demonstration at Victoria station tomorrow in a "show of anger".
Hundreds of people have expressed an interest in the rush hour demonstration, scheduled for 5.30pm, claiming lives are being "ruined" by the company's service."
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/southern-railway-desperate-commuters-to-hold-victoria-station-protest-a3292251.html
When do we want it - 18.00, calling at Clapham Jct, East Croydon, Redhill and Gatwick Airport0 -
A cat gives its opinion on the Brexit strategy: I think you should demand to leave multiple times and then when the door is opened, just sit there and stare at it. That's exactly what I would do.0
-
The East Coast line was nationalised. I don't think DB is privately owned.DaveDave said:
Nationalisation is banned under EU law. It won't be post Brexit.Mortimer said:
Nationalisation and then rolling over to the unions?surbiton said:
Nationalisation of Southern Trains is the answer. Corbyn is the man.JohnO said:
What do we want - Southern TrainsAndyJS said:"'Desperate' commuters on Southern trains are considering a fare strike and will hold a demonstration at Victoria station tomorrow in a "show of anger".
Hundreds of people have expressed an interest in the rush hour demonstration, scheduled for 5.30pm, claiming lives are being "ruined" by the company's service."
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/southern-railway-desperate-commuters-to-hold-victoria-station-protest-a3292251.html
When do we want it - 18.00, calling at Clapham Jct, East Croydon, Redhill and Gatwick Airport0 -
Any Muslims or Jews? Aren't they the bigger priorities for the FN?surbiton said:I wonder what Marine Le Pen makes of this. 7 out of 11 French players on the pitch are black.
0 -
Thought the Southern dispute was RMT? In any event, a non sequitur. I'm hardly a union fellow traveller. ASLEF want to renationalise the railways. EU means they can't.surbiton said:
You mean the Union which blackmails commuters ?John_M said:It was interesting to read the arguments on LabourLeave.
It just shows how strange and diverse motivations were during EUref that people like me, Charles, Sean and Plato were on the same side as the leader of ASLEF.0 -
Back to what though? Sloganising, pledges and edstones?Monty said:
There has always been a strain of left wing politics that believes that the British people will come running if we only offer a true ideologically pure left alternative. And if they don't it doesn't matter as at least we are pure.
Corbyn has harnessed that howl of rage and attracted the usual suspects from the SWP and Greens who don't want to win elections.
Those of us who do see the value in actually getting elected and having the opportunity to implement policies need to get the party back.
Because it was bloody clear from listening to Cooper, Burnham and Kendall last summer that none of them had any idea what Labour was supposed to be about. Which was why Corbyn won.0 -
Sissoko , Sagna are definitely Muslims. But Benzema was not picked. Cantona thought it was political.FrankBooth said:
Any Muslims or Jews? Aren't they the bigger priorities for the FN?surbiton said:I wonder what Marine Le Pen makes of this. 7 out of 11 French players on the pitch are black.
0 -
The Company should try a company doctor I once knew socially who was sent in to tackle sickness levels in a male dominated factory and instituted a new policy of a mandatory full assessment by the Doc everytime a worker returned to work. This doctor had a few unsavoury tactics one of which included a rectal exam where the worker did not see the doc putting a glove on and then swiftly turning the worker around and asking them to open their mouth and say ahh with ungloved fingers. The workers did not know that the glove was ever there. The problem was cured.Charles said:
The problem seems to be that the unions have found a very clever way to destroy the company without technically breaking the law on unauthorised strike action (i.e. coordinated sick days).AndyJS said:"'Desperate' commuters on Southern trains are considering a fare strike and will hold a demonstration at Victoria station tomorrow in a "show of anger".
Hundreds of people have expressed an interest in the rush hour demonstration, scheduled for 5.30pm, claiming lives are being "ruined" by the company's service."
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/southern-railway-desperate-commuters-to-hold-victoria-station-protest-a3292251.html
There's actually not much that Southern can do to improve things - if they surrender they may as well hand over the keys to the company; if they fight on their customers continue to get angry. I'd hope they are training a bunch of new drivers, but they are in a tough spot.
0 -
In all this talk about Labour losing their northern WWC seats to UKIP if they go with a Chuka type candidate, there are two things to consider:
1) Did Northern Labour Voters actually break for Leave in massive numbers, or was it actually the case that former Non-Voters plus UKIP swung Sunderland etc?
2) How sure can we be that those same people will turnout at a GE and vote UKIP?
I think in reality Labour's northern seats are safer than we assume. I would hazard a guess that they are already close to core vote in those seats, it's just that the opposition is split between UKIP and and Non-Voters so Labour win regardless.
Labour needs to take seats off of Tories. A seat won from a Tory is +2 for Labour (+1 Labour, -1 Tory), a seat won from a lib dem or SNP is only +1 for Labour (+1 Labour, 0 Tory).
They need old Blair-now Cameron seats. Corbyn can't do that, a Chuka type could, in 2020 the tories will be the 10 year incumbent government, presiding most likely over a brexit recession, with a PM far less charismatic than DC was. 2020 is there for the taking.0 -
I don't really get the desire for railway nationalisation. The railways are so much better than when I was younger. More timely, better furnished, lots of cheap advance tickets available. More competition, not less, is surely the answer...DaveDave said:
Nationalisation is banned under EU law. It won't be post Brexit.Mortimer said:
Nationalisation and then rolling over to the unions?surbiton said:
Nationalisation of Southern Trains is the answer. Corbyn is the man.JohnO said:
What do we want - Southern TrainsAndyJS said:"'Desperate' commuters on Southern trains are considering a fare strike and will hold a demonstration at Victoria station tomorrow in a "show of anger".
Hundreds of people have expressed an interest in the rush hour demonstration, scheduled for 5.30pm, claiming lives are being "ruined" by the company's service."
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/southern-railway-desperate-commuters-to-hold-victoria-station-protest-a3292251.html
When do we want it - 18.00, calling at Clapham Jct, East Croydon, Redhill and Gatwick Airport
Edit: that said, my experiences of Southern are less positive. Too big a network?0 -
There has always been a strain of left wing politics that believes that the British people will come running if we only offer a true ideologically pure left alternative. And if they don't it doesn't matter as at least we are pure.AramintaMoonbeamQC said:
Corbyn has harnessed that howl of rage and attracted the usual suspects from the SWP and Greens who don't want to win elections.
Those of us who do see the value in actually getting elected and having the opportunity to implement policies need to get the party back.
I just despair at the mindset of those who do not wish to win elections. How the hell do you expect to change anything substantial - 38 degrees petitions?
I asked the household undergraduate/Corbynite how he genuinely thought it would go when he's door knocking in the Leave heartlands in Yorkshire, with Jez as leader. Even he had to admit they were utterly ruined, only a very decent local MP was preventing the seat going UKIP.
The hard left disdains Parliamentary democracy. It is bourgeois. They hate the fact that Labour has always embraced it. The hard left believes that true socialism can only be achieved from the streets, when the proletariat rises up to take control. Thus, for Corbyn and his cult winning general elections is not a priority. In fact, in many ways harsh Tory rule is the preferred option as, so the thinking goes, this will speed the day the workers revolt. It's all very 1960s and 1970s. And, of course, it is complete nonsense. But it's what Corbyn and his chums genuinely believe.
0 -
Kendall started promisingly but then seemed to disappear in a fog of... vapid bilge after the campaign got going.Monksfield said:
Back to what though? Sloganising, pledges and edstones?Monty said:
There has always been a strain of left wing politics that believes that the British people will come running if we only offer a true ideologically pure left alternative. And if they don't it doesn't matter as at least we are pure.
Corbyn has harnessed that howl of rage and attracted the usual suspects from the SWP and Greens who don't want to win elections.
Those of us who do see the value in actually getting elected and having the opportunity to implement policies need to get the party back.
Because it was bloody clear from listening to Cooper, Burnham and Kendall last summer that none of them had any idea what Labour was supposed to be about. Which was why Corbyn won.0 -
There was no tribal Labour vote in the referendum. There would be in a General Election.0
-
Not disagreeing with that. But the answer to Labour's problem is not Corbyn. He is a distraction that is preventing the party from redefining itself for 21st century.Monksfield said:
Back to what though? Sloganising, pledges and edstones?Monty said:
There has always been a strain of left wing politics that believes that the British people will come running if we only offer a true ideologically pure left alternative. And if they don't it doesn't matter as at least we are pure.
Corbyn has harnessed that howl of rage and attracted the usual suspects from the SWP and Greens who don't want to win elections.
Those of us who do see the value in actually getting elected and having the opportunity to implement policies need to get the party back.
Because it was bloody clear from listening to Cooper, Burnham and Kendall last summer that none of them had any idea what Labour was supposed to be about. Which was why Corbyn won.
0 -
Ngolo Kante is muslim too.surbiton said:
Sissoko , Sagna are definitely Muslims. But Benzema was not picked. Cantona thought it was political.FrankBooth said:
Any Muslims or Jews? Aren't they the bigger priorities for the FN?surbiton said:I wonder what Marine Le Pen makes of this. 7 out of 11 French players on the pitch are black.
0 -
Sunderland was 55% Labour 45% Others. I believe 80% of Others voted Leave.Paristonda said:In all this talk about Labour losing their northern WWC seats to UKIP if they go with a Chuka type candidate, there are two things to consider:
1) Did Northern Labour Voters actually break for Leave in massive numbers, or was it actually the case that former Non-Voters plus UKIP swung Sunderland etc?
2) How sure can we be that those same people will turnout at a GE and vote UKIP?
I think in reality Labour's northern seats are safer than we assume. I would hazard a guess that they are already close to core vote in those seats, it's just that the opposition is split between UKIP and and Non-Voters so Labour win regardless.
Labour needs to take seats off of Tories. A seat won from a Tory is +2 for Labour (+1 Labour, -1 Tory), a seat won from a lib dem or SNP is only +1 for Labour (+1 Labour, 0 Tory).
They need old Blair-now Cameron seats. Corbyn can't do that, a Chuka type could, in 2020 the tories will be the 10 year incumbent government, presiding most likely over a brexit recession, with a PM far less charismatic than DC was. 2020 is there for the taking.
80% x 45% + 45% x 55% = 60%. So, about 45% of Labour voters in Sunderland voted Leave. Because there was a higher turnout that share is even less.0 -
I just despair at the mindset of those who do not wish to win elections. How the hell do you expect to change anything substantial - 38 degrees petitions?SouthamObserver said:
There has always been a strain of left wing politics that believes that the British people will come running if we only offer a true ideologically pure left alternative. And if they don't it doesn't matter as at least we are pure.AramintaMoonbeamQC said:
Corbyn has harnessed that howl of rage and attracted the usual suspects from the SWP and Greens who don't want to win elections.
Those of us who do see the value in actually getting elected and having the opportunity to implement policies need to get the party back.
I asked the household undergraduate/Corbynite how he genuinely thought it would go when he's door knocking in the Leave heartlands in Yorkshire, with Jez as leader. Even he had to admit they were utterly ruined, only a very decent local MP was preventing the seat going UKIP.
The hard left disdains Parliamentary democracy. It is bourgeois. They hate the fact that Labour has always embraced it. The hard left believes that true socialism can only be achieved from the streets, when the proletariat rises up to take control. Thus, for Corbyn and his cult winning general elections is not a priority. In fact, in many ways harsh Tory rule is the preferred option as, so the thinking goes, this will speed the day the workers revolt. It's all very 1960s and 1970s. And, of course, it is complete nonsense. But it's what Corbyn and his chums genuinely believe.
This type of madness just brings it home to me that, if it were not for the Scottish constitutional question, I'd be in the Lib Dems. The extreme wings of Blue and Red are MENTAL.0 -
I don't think that's right, actually. Labour need to get 326 seats to get a majority (301 if the seat reduction goes through). The breakdown of the opposition parties doesn't matter.Paristonda said:Labour needs to take seats off of Tories. A seat won from a Tory is +2 for Labour (+1 Labour, -1 Tory), a seat won from a lib dem or SNP is only +1 for Labour (+1 Labour, 0 Tory).
Unless they're going for the idea of "everyone who isn't a Tory is anti-Tory", which didn't work out in 2010 and backfired on Labour when various people tried to put it forward in 2015.0 -
England are having a good final. The ref has the calls right.SeanT said:How bad is this match?
How bad is this tournament?
BREXIT.
Portugal are tough to play against. They have played this way throughout.0 -
Good luck with that with railwaymen. I doubt the doctor would last the morning before being admitted to casualty with compound jaw fractures and a badly broken noseTCPoliticalBetting said:
The Company should try a company doctor I once knew socially who was sent in to tackle sickness levels in a male dominated factory and instituted a new policy of a mandatory full assessment by the Doc everytime a worker returned to work. This doctor had a few unsavoury tactics one of which included a rectal exam where the worker did not see the doc putting a glove on and then swiftly turning the worker around and asking them to open their mouth and say ahh with ungloved fingers. The workers did not know that the glove was ever there. The problem was cured.Charles said:
The problem seems to be that the unions have found a very clever way to destroy the company without technically breaking the law on unauthorised strike action (i.e. coordinated sick days).AndyJS said:"'Desperate' commuters on Southern trains are considering a fare strike and will hold a demonstration at Victoria station tomorrow in a "show of anger".
Hundreds of people have expressed an interest in the rush hour demonstration, scheduled for 5.30pm, claiming lives are being "ruined" by the company's service."
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/southern-railway-desperate-commuters-to-hold-victoria-station-protest-a3292251.html
There's actually not much that Southern can do to improve things - if they surrender they may as well hand over the keys to the company; if they fight on their customers continue to get angry. I'd hope they are training a bunch of new drivers, but they are in a tough spot.0 -
Labour's biggest problem is it needs seats in Scotland again.ThreeQuidder said:
I don't think that's right, actually. Labour need to get 326 seats to get a majority (301 if the seat reduction goes through). The breakdown of the opposition parties doesn't matter.Paristonda said:Labour needs to take seats off of Tories. A seat won from a Tory is +2 for Labour (+1 Labour, -1 Tory), a seat won from a lib dem or SNP is only +1 for Labour (+1 Labour, 0 Tory).
Unless they're going for the idea of "everyone who isn't a Tory is anti-Tory", which didn't work out in 2010 and backfired on Labour when various people tried to put it forward in 2015.
Or Scottish independence.0 -
Can I ask you where you live? Trust me, as someone who lives up North, Labour is a goner around here. The only reason they win is inertia and the lack of another party to vote for...Paristonda said:In all this talk about Labour losing their northern WWC seats to UKIP if they go with a Chuka type candidate, there are two things to consider:
1) Did Northern Labour Voters actually break for Leave in massive numbers, or was it actually the case that former Non-Voters plus UKIP swung Sunderland etc?
2) How sure can we be that those same people will turnout at a GE and vote UKIP?
I think in reality Labour's northern seats are safer than we assume. I would hazard a guess that they are already close to core vote in those seats, it's just that the opposition is split between UKIP and and Non-Voters so Labour win regardless.
Labour needs to take seats off of Tories. A seat won from a Tory is +2 for Labour (+1 Labour, -1 Tory), a seat won from a lib dem or SNP is only +1 for Labour (+1 Labour, 0 Tory).
They need old Blair-now Cameron seats. Corbyn can't do that, a Chuka type could, in 2020 the tories will be the 10 year incumbent government, presiding most likely over a brexit recession, with a PM far less charismatic than DC was. 2020 is there for the taking.
UKIP are perfectly positioned to be that other party....0 -
If BR had had the £5 billion a year subsidy that this lot get rather than the less than one billion a year they got things would have been somewhat different.Mortimer said:
I don't really get the desire for railway nationalisation. The railways are so much better than when I was younger. More timely, better furnished, lots of cheap advance tickets available. More competition, not less, is surely the answer...DaveDave said:
Nationalisation is banned under EU law. It won't be post Brexit.Mortimer said:
Nationalisation and then rolling over to the unions?surbiton said:
Nationalisation of Southern Trains is the answer. Corbyn is the man.JohnO said:
What do we want - Southern TrainsAndyJS said:"'Desperate' commuters on Southern trains are considering a fare strike and will hold a demonstration at Victoria station tomorrow in a "show of anger".
Hundreds of people have expressed an interest in the rush hour demonstration, scheduled for 5.30pm, claiming lives are being "ruined" by the company's service."
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/southern-railway-desperate-commuters-to-hold-victoria-station-protest-a3292251.html
When do we want it - 18.00, calling at Clapham Jct, East Croydon, Redhill and Gatwick Airport
Edit: that said, my experiences of Southern are less positive. Too big a network?0 -
One of my most deeply held beliefs is that the British people have not really changed nearly as much as the liberal metro commentariat would have us believe. The Tory party in the country is especially untouched by the vagaries of modernisation.
We Conservatives are being offered a choice between someone who likes us, our values and believes we can win with them and someone who seems to think our Blairite opponents still hold all the trump cards and that our best chance lies in aping them.0 -
-
SeanT said:
How bad is this match?
How bad is this tournament?
BREXIT.
It's like every team in Europe is now managed by Louis van Gaal. Just shite to watch.
Thank God for Iceland.0 -
From an electoral arithmetic POV, the maintenance of the Union is very attractive for the Tories - a Union in which Labour increasingly only have a hope in urban English and Welsh seats....MarqueeMark said:
Labour's biggest problem is it needs seats in Scotland again.ThreeQuidder said:
I don't think that's right, actually. Labour need to get 326 seats to get a majority (301 if the seat reduction goes through). The breakdown of the opposition parties doesn't matter.Paristonda said:Labour needs to take seats off of Tories. A seat won from a Tory is +2 for Labour (+1 Labour, -1 Tory), a seat won from a lib dem or SNP is only +1 for Labour (+1 Labour, 0 Tory).
Unless they're going for the idea of "everyone who isn't a Tory is anti-Tory", which didn't work out in 2010 and backfired on Labour when various people tried to put it forward in 2015.
Or Scottish independence.0 -
Great, please go with the right wing lunatic. I'd like Labour to have a chance again.Concanvasser said:One of my most deeply held beliefs is that the British people have not really changed nearly as much as the liberal metro commentariat would have us believe. The Tory party in the country is especially untouched by the vagaries of modernisation.
We Conservatives are being offered a choice between someone who likes us, our values and believes we can win with them and someone who seems to think our Blairite opponents still hold all the trump cards and that our best chance lies in aping them.0 -
Just poor for anyone who, you know, enjoys actual football.JonnyJimmy said:0 -
Sure, sure - but it didn't; and wasn't the main reason for privatisation the recognition that investment was required but not forthcoming with BR a state vehicle?Paul_Bedfordshire said:
If BR had had the £5 billion a year subsidy that this lot get rather than the less than one billion a year they got things would have been somewhat different.Mortimer said:
I don't really get the desire for railway nationalisation. The railways are so much better than when I was younger. More timely, better furnished, lots of cheap advance tickets available. More competition, not less, is surely the answer...DaveDave said:
Nationalisation is banned under EU law. It won't be post Brexit.Mortimer said:
Nationalisation and then rolling over to the unions?surbiton said:
Nationalisation of Southern Trains is the answer. Corbyn is the man.JohnO said:
What do we want - Southern TrainsAndyJS said:"'Desperate' commuters on Southern trains are considering a fare strike and will hold a demonstration at Victoria station tomorrow in a "show of anger".
Hundreds of people have expressed an interest in the rush hour demonstration, scheduled for 5.30pm, claiming lives are being "ruined" by the company's service."
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/southern-railway-desperate-commuters-to-hold-victoria-station-protest-a3292251.html
When do we want it - 18.00, calling at Clapham Jct, East Croydon, Redhill and Gatwick Airport
Edit: that said, my experiences of Southern are less positive. Too big a network?
0 -
Why do u think others was 80% Leave the Tories do best in the ahem "poshest" parts of Sunderland where most of the 38% Remain vote should have come from.surbiton said:
Sunderland was 55% Labour 45% Others. I believe 80% of Others voted Leave.Paristonda said:In all this talk about Labour losing their northern WWC seats to UKIP if they go with a Chuka type candidate, there are two things to consider:
1) Did Northern Labour Voters actually break for Leave in massive numbers, or was it actually the case that former Non-Voters plus UKIP swung Sunderland etc?
2) How sure can we be that those same people will turnout at a GE and vote UKIP?
I think in reality Labour's northern seats are safer than we assume. I would hazard a guess that they are already close to core vote in those seats, it's just that the opposition is split between UKIP and and Non-Voters so Labour win regardless.
Labour needs to take seats off of Tories. A seat won from a Tory is +2 for Labour (+1 Labour, -1 Tory), a seat won from a lib dem or SNP is only +1 for Labour (+1 Labour, 0 Tory).
They need old Blair-now Cameron seats. Corbyn can't do that, a Chuka type could, in 2020 the tories will be the 10 year incumbent government, presiding most likely over a brexit recession, with a PM far less charismatic than DC was. 2020 is there for the taking.
80% x 45% + 45% x 55% = 60%. So, about 45% of Labour voters in Sunderland voted Leave. Because there was a higher turnout that share is even less.
If Labour split 40% Leave then outside London, Brighton, Manchester city, Bristol, Cardiff and Liverpool which are safe for Labour as ukip do badly here then the Labour vote was majority just about Leave.0 -
There seem to be several here taking that view. Alas you are the only one honest about it (although unlike them I dont think you are being serious)Monty said:
Great, please go with the right wing lunatic. I'd like Labour to have a chance again.Concanvasser said:One of my most deeply held beliefs is that the British people have not really changed nearly as much as the liberal metro commentariat would have us believe. The Tory party in the country is especially untouched by the vagaries of modernisation.
We Conservatives are being offered a choice between someone who likes us, our values and believes we can win with them and someone who seems to think our Blairite opponents still hold all the trump cards and that our best chance lies in aping them.0 -
There's been a few good games. Wales v Belgium. Croatia were good fun too. But generally poor for some reason. Not sure why.SeanT said:0 -
Many of us hark back to a golden age (for ourselves). Mine is the late eighties/early nineties.Mortimer said:
I don't really get the desire for railway nationalisation. The railways are so much better than when I was younger. More timely, better furnished, lots of cheap advance tickets available. More competition, not less, is surely the answer...DaveDave said:
Nationalisation is banned under EU law. It won't be post Brexit.Mortimer said:
Nationalisation and then rolling over to the unions?surbiton said:
Nationalisation of Southern Trains is the answer. Corbyn is the man.JohnO said:
What do we want - Southern TrainsAndyJS said:"'Desperate' commuters on Southern trains are considering a fare strike and will hold a demonstration at Victoria station tomorrow in a "show of anger".
Hundreds of people have expressed an interest in the rush hour demonstration, scheduled for 5.30pm, claiming lives are being "ruined" by the company's service."
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/southern-railway-desperate-commuters-to-hold-victoria-station-protest-a3292251.html
When do we want it - 18.00, calling at Clapham Jct, East Croydon, Redhill and Gatwick Airport
Edit: that said, my experiences of Southern are less positive. Too big a network?
For others (like some union leaders) its the 60s and 70s when you had a triumvirate of the miners, railwaymen and steel workers who had real power. We often forget how pervasive state control was back then.0 -
Not in your lifetime Malcolm. Or mine.malcolmg said:
I expect we will join the EUSeanT said:
So Scotland will leave the UK, but not join the EU?malcolmg said:
It will be the formerSeanT said:
I have me doots.surbiton said:
As they will be soon.HYUFD said:
Given England has fought more wars against France than any other nation on earth, closely followed by Scotland, that is not that surprising, especially considering from the Jacobite rebellion back the Scots and French were often on the same sidemalcolmg said:
Our old friends the French for meTheScreamingEagles said:I trust all true English people are cheering for our oldest ally, Portugal, against the French.
The way the EU is responding to Brexit - more integration, hegemonic Franco-German alliance, forced euro membership - makes rejoining the EU look increasingly unpalatable by the day.
Will Scotland really divorce from England to become a tiny colony of Brussels? Really??
Hm. Or will they look at that famous arc of prosperity, including Iceland and Norway, and note that it is in EFTA, not the EU? Just like England?0 -
Such is the state of Labour outside of metropolitan areas, Leadsom would probably win enough seats to keep Labour out of power...Monty said:
Great, please go with the right wing lunatic. I'd like Labour to have a chance again.Concanvasser said:One of my most deeply held beliefs is that the British people have not really changed nearly as much as the liberal metro commentariat would have us believe. The Tory party in the country is especially untouched by the vagaries of modernisation.
We Conservatives are being offered a choice between someone who likes us, our values and believes we can win with them and someone who seems to think our Blairite opponents still hold all the trump cards and that our best chance lies in aping them.0 -
And the only real hope for Scottish Labour is to reinvent themselves as a left of centre party in a post Indy Scotland, as they've bottled the constitutional Q AGAIN. The Tories have established themselves to the right of the SNP, as the defenders of the UJ.Mortimer said:
From an electoral arithmetic POV, the maintenance of the Union is very attractive for the Tories - a Union in which Labour increasingly only have a hope in urban English and Welsh seats....MarqueeMark said:
Labour's biggest problem is it needs seats in Scotland again.ThreeQuidder said:
I don't think that's right, actually. Labour need to get 326 seats to get a majority (301 if the seat reduction goes through). The breakdown of the opposition parties doesn't matter.Paristonda said:Labour needs to take seats off of Tories. A seat won from a Tory is +2 for Labour (+1 Labour, -1 Tory), a seat won from a lib dem or SNP is only +1 for Labour (+1 Labour, 0 Tory).
Unless they're going for the idea of "everyone who isn't a Tory is anti-Tory", which didn't work out in 2010 and backfired on Labour when various people tried to put it forward in 2015.
Or Scottish independence.
Labour still can't grasp this, however, and still think the electorate will come around, clinging to the hope that each defeat is 'peak SNP'.
The Tories are playing them like a banjo on each side of the border.0 -
If Corbyn goes, that complacency goes too.Mortimer said:
Such is the state of Labour outside of metropolitan areas, Leadsom would probably win enough seats to keep Labour out of power...Monty said:
Great, please go with the right wing lunatic. I'd like Labour to have a chance again.Concanvasser said:One of my most deeply held beliefs is that the British people have not really changed nearly as much as the liberal metro commentariat would have us believe. The Tory party in the country is especially untouched by the vagaries of modernisation.
We Conservatives are being offered a choice between someone who likes us, our values and believes we can win with them and someone who seems to think our Blairite opponents still hold all the trump cards and that our best chance lies in aping them.0 -
You think Scotland will never leave then?Luckyguy1983 said:
Not in your lifetime Malcolm. Or mine.malcolmg said:
I expect we will join the EUSeanT said:
So Scotland will leave the UK, but not join the EU?malcolmg said:
It will be the formerSeanT said:
I have me doots.surbiton said:
As they will be soon.HYUFD said:
Given England has fought more wars against France than any other nation on earth, closely followed by Scotland, that is not that surprising, especially considering from the Jacobite rebellion back the Scots and French were often on the same sidemalcolmg said:
Our old friends the French for meTheScreamingEagles said:I trust all true English people are cheering for our oldest ally, Portugal, against the French.
The way the EU is responding to Brexit - more integration, hegemonic Franco-German alliance, forced euro membership - makes rejoining the EU look increasingly unpalatable by the day.
Will Scotland really divorce from England to become a tiny colony of Brussels? Really??
Hm. Or will they look at that famous arc of prosperity, including Iceland and Norway, and note that it is in EFTA, not the EU? Just like England?0 -
Ukip was 25% in Sunderland, so 80% of others doesn't seem unlikely.nunu said:
Why do u think others was 80% Leave the Tories do best in the ahem "poshest" parts of Sunderland where most of the 38% Remain vote should have come from.surbiton said:
Sunderland was 55% Labour 45% Others. I believe 80% of Others voted Leave.Paristonda said:In all this talk about Labour losing their northern WWC seats to UKIP if they go with a Chuka type candidate, there are two things to consider:
1) Did Northern Labour Voters actually break for Leave in massive numbers, or was it actually the case that former Non-Voters plus UKIP swung Sunderland etc?
2) How sure can we be that those same people will turnout at a GE and vote UKIP?
I think in reality Labour's northern seats are safer than we assume. I would hazard a guess that they are already close to core vote in those seats, it's just that the opposition is split between UKIP and and Non-Voters so Labour win regardless.
Labour needs to take seats off of Tories. A seat won from a Tory is +2 for Labour (+1 Labour, -1 Tory), a seat won from a lib dem or SNP is only +1 for Labour (+1 Labour, 0 Tory).
They need old Blair-now Cameron seats. Corbyn can't do that, a Chuka type could, in 2020 the tories will be the 10 year incumbent government, presiding most likely over a brexit recession, with a PM far less charismatic than DC was. 2020 is there for the taking.
80% x 45% + 45% x 55% = 60%. So, about 45% of Labour voters in Sunderland voted Leave. Because there was a higher turnout that share is even less.
If Labour split 40% Leave then outside London, Brighton, Manchester city, Bristol, Cardiff and Liverpool which are safe for Labour as ukip do badly here then the Labour vote was majority just about Leave.0 -
The source of the money is the same - you and I the taxpayer.Mortimer said:
Sure, sure - but it didn't; and wasn't the main reason for privatisation the recognition that investment was required but not forthcoming with BR a state vehicle?Paul_Bedfordshire said:
If BR had had the £5 billion a year subsidy that this lot get rather than the less than one billion a year they got things would have been somewhat different.Mortimer said:
I don't really get the desire for railway nationalisation. The railways are so much better than when I was younger. More timely, better furnished, lots of cheap advance tickets available. More competition, not less, is surely the answer...DaveDave said:
Nationalisation is banned under EU law. It won't be post Brexit.Mortimer said:
Nationalisation and then rolling over to the unions?surbiton said:
Nationalisation of Southern Trains is the answer. Corbyn is the man.JohnO said:
What do we want - Southern TrainsAndyJS said:"'Desperate' commuters on Southern trains are considering a fare strike and will hold a demonstration at Victoria station tomorrow in a "show of anger".
Hundreds of people have expressed an interest in the rush hour demonstration, scheduled for 5.30pm, claiming lives are being "ruined" by the company's service."
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/southern-railway-desperate-commuters-to-hold-victoria-station-protest-a3292251.html
When do we want it - 18.00, calling at Clapham Jct, East Croydon, Redhill and Gatwick Airport
Edit: that said, my experiences of Southern are less positive. Too big a network?
No, privatisation was so they could do to the railways what they did to the coal mines. However the TOCs were good at selling the product, passenger numbers went up and the government and the road lobby to their utter horror realised that the rail lobby which had vanished in 1948 upon nationalisation - giving the road lobby free rein - had been reborn and was back with a venegence.0 -
Quality defending is part of actual football, and it helps win tournamentsMonty said:
Just poor for anyone who, you know, enjoys actual football.JonnyJimmy said:0 -
Whisper it, but if we can pull off a soft leave that also dramatically reduces the impact on those most left behind by globalisation, there are up to 20% of the English and a good number of the Scottish electorate up for grabs...AramintaMoonbeamQC said:
And the only real hope for Scottish Labour is to reinvent themselves as a left of centre party in a post Indy Scotland, as they've bottled the constitutional Q AGAIN. The Tories have established themselves to the right of the SNP, as the defenders of the UJ.Mortimer said:
From an electoral arithmetic POV, the maintenance of the Union is very attractive for the Tories - a Union in which Labour increasingly only have a hope in urban English and Welsh seats....MarqueeMark said:
Labour's biggest problem is it needs seats in Scotland again.ThreeQuidder said:
I don't think that's right, actually. Labour need to get 326 seats to get a majority (301 if the seat reduction goes through). The breakdown of the opposition parties doesn't matter.Paristonda said:Labour needs to take seats off of Tories. A seat won from a Tory is +2 for Labour (+1 Labour, -1 Tory), a seat won from a lib dem or SNP is only +1 for Labour (+1 Labour, 0 Tory).
Unless they're going for the idea of "everyone who isn't a Tory is anti-Tory", which didn't work out in 2010 and backfired on Labour when various people tried to put it forward in 2015.
Or Scottish independence.
Labour still can't grasp this, however, and still think the electorate will come around, clinging to the hope that each defeat is 'peak SNP'.
The Tories are playing them like a banjo on each side of the border.0 -
As a neutral, minnows Iceland humbling England must have been a delight to watch. As Englander supporters, we were even robbed of that moment of delight.Monty said:
There's been a few good games. Wales v Belgium. Croatia were good fun too. But generally poor for some reason. Not sure why.SeanT said:0 -
The Tory party in the country may be largely unchanged. There you have your partial explanation for why membership numbers are a fraction of what they were in its heyday.Concanvasser said:One of my most deeply held beliefs is that the British people have not really changed nearly as much as the liberal metro commentariat would have us believe. The Tory party in the country is especially untouched by the vagaries of modernisation.
We Conservatives are being offered a choice between someone who likes us, our values and believes we can win with them and someone who seems to think our Blairite opponents still hold all the trump cards and that our best chance lies in aping them.
But May, a Blairite clone? Based on what? The "nasty party" speech? That's just ridiculous.0 -
Ah, the glory that is the white working class.Paul_Bedfordshire said:
Good luck with that with railwaymen. I doubt the doctor would last the morning before being admitted to casualty with compound jaw fractures and a badly broken noseTCPoliticalBetting said:
The Company should try a company doctor I once knew socially who was sent in to tackle sickness levels in a male dominated factory and instituted a new policy of a mandatory full assessment by the Doc everytime a worker returned to work. This doctor had a few unsavoury tactics one of which included a rectal exam where the worker did not see the doc putting a glove on and then swiftly turning the worker around and asking them to open their mouth and say ahh with ungloved fingers. The workers did not know that the glove was ever there. The problem was cured.Charles said:
The problem seems to be that the unions have found a very clever way to destroy the company without technically breaking the law on unauthorised strike action (i.e. coordinated sick days).AndyJS said:"'Desperate' commuters on Southern trains are considering a fare strike and will hold a demonstration at Victoria station tomorrow in a "show of anger".
Hundreds of people have expressed an interest in the rush hour demonstration, scheduled for 5.30pm, claiming lives are being "ruined" by the company's service."
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/southern-railway-desperate-commuters-to-hold-victoria-station-protest-a3292251.html
There's actually not much that Southern can do to improve things - if they surrender they may as well hand over the keys to the company; if they fight on their customers continue to get angry. I'd hope they are training a bunch of new drivers, but they are in a tough spot.0 -
I suggest you read about Major's motivation for rail privatisation - I can't remember what is was (was it the cost of gilts?) exactly but there were serious reasons why railway infrastructure couldn't get the investment it needed as a state vehicle.Paul_Bedfordshire said:
The source of the money is the same - you and I the taxpayer.Mortimer said:
Sure, sure - but it didn't; and wasn't the main reason for privatisation the recognition that investment was required but not forthcoming with BR a state vehicle?Paul_Bedfordshire said:
If BR had had the £5 billion a year subsidy that this lot get rather than the less than one billion a year they got things would have been somewhat different.Mortimer said:
I don't really get the desire for railway nationalisation. The railways are so much better than when I was younger. More timely, better furnished, lots of cheap advance tickets available. More competition, not less, is surely the answer...DaveDave said:
Nationalisation is banned under EU law. It won't be post Brexit.Mortimer said:
Nationalisation and then rolling over to the unions?surbiton said:
Nationalisation of Southern Trains is the answer. Corbyn is the man.JohnO said:
What do we want - Southern TrainsAndyJS said:"'Desperate' commuters on Southern trains are considering a fare strike and will hold a demonstration at Victoria station tomorrow in a "show of anger".
Hundreds of people have expressed an interest in the rush hour demonstration, scheduled for 5.30pm, claiming lives are being "ruined" by the company's service."
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/southern-railway-desperate-commuters-to-hold-victoria-station-protest-a3292251.html
When do we want it - 18.00, calling at Clapham Jct, East Croydon, Redhill and Gatwick Airport
Edit: that said, my experiences of Southern are less positive. Too big a network?
No, privatisation was so they could do to the railways what they did to the coal mines. However the TOCs were good at selling the product, passenger numbers went up and the government and the road lobby to their utter horror realised that the rail lobby which had vanished in 1948 upon nationalisation - giving the road lobby free rein - had been reborn and was back with a venegence.
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Yes, although we were so poor I actually found it funny. England have underperformed and disappointed us for so long it's become the norm.MarqueeMark said:
As a neutral, minnows Iceland humbling England must have been a delight to watch. As Englander supporters, we were even robbed of that moment of delight.Monty said:
There's been a few good games. Wales v Belgium. Croatia were good fun too. But generally poor for some reason. Not sure why.SeanT said:
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