politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Keiran Pedley on why Jeremy Corbyn should not automatically
Comments
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Looks perfectly respectableTheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Not sure I would want my financial affairs carried out by a firm who can't even file their own accounts on time https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/068892670
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Guernsey methinks.Lowlander said:
So that's three wins for Scotland and one for Jersey in this Wimbledon alone.JackW said:Heather Watson wins the mixed doubles with partner Henri Kontinen.
Have to feel sorry for England, so many years of hurt. I think that's 39 years since an English woman and 29 years since an English man won a Wimbledon title.
And of course 80 years since an English man won the Gentleman's Singles.0 -
Not true. In all cases save for by-elections and where MPs stood down immediately before an election, selection of PPCs was down to CLPs then as now, and a full reselection would take place where sitting MPs failed to win an initial trigger ballot. Under Blair and Brown much of the membership were not hostile to the New Labour agenda, and many of those who wanted something a bit more radical had left (myself included). Nor can I recall any significant move to deselect any Labour MP under Milibands leadership, even though membership had changed by then. That was because each MP has up to now been generally well regarded by much of their local membership, with whom they interact closely.grahambc1 said:The problem is caused by years under Blair where the party at large was sidelined in the selection of PPCs so the parliamentary party became detached from the party at large. If shortlists and candidates were not imposed in such a biased way then the parliamentary party would reflect the memberships wishes better and thus Corbyn would have greater support.
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So they WANT to lose more than half the membership??kle4 said:I suppose the thinking behind keeping Corbyn off the ballot is it might cause an exodus of lefty members (presuming the non far lefties who also voted for him are more prepared to stick around), rather than force the MPs to potentially have to leave if they challenge him and fail (given their actions have gone far beyond usual challenges)?
Where exactly do they think their ground troops and money is going to come from?0 -
All the more remarkable as it would be death by being more popular than its been in years, given the surging membership - assuming that those members are not right and that the electorate at large is also going for Corbynite Labour, in which case boy will we be surprised. If they are wrong, it's incredible how divorced from the electorate the membership will be.SeanT said:SouthamObserver said:
I agree. It's hard to see the NEC keeping him off the ballot. There is too much doubt and so the safe thing to do is let Corbyn run.bigjohnowls said:On Topic
LOL
Presumably MPs have no right to stand in their deselction sorry i mean reselection meetings either.
The current NEC elections will also give Corbyn a strong majority on that body too IMO.
Basically Corbyn not on ballot is a non starter
What a spectacle. The death of one of the great British political parties now seems all-but-inevitable.0 -
McDonalds are already thereSunil_Prasannan said:
I thought you want to be/speak French, TSE.TheScreamingEagles said:I trust all true English people are cheering for our oldest ally, Portugal, against the French.
Isn't your company moving toVichyParis post-Brexit?0 -
Our old friends the French for meTheScreamingEagles said:I trust all true English people are cheering for our oldest ally, Portugal, against the French.
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Merely speculation on my part - but the membership has grown massively in recent years, possibly even doubled at least? In which case getting back to pre Corbynite levels would not be devastating in terms of money or foot soldiers, even if it would be a reduction.Danny565 said:
So they WANT to lose more than half the membership??kle4 said:I suppose the thinking behind keeping Corbyn off the ballot is it might cause an exodus of lefty members (presuming the non far lefties who also voted for him are more prepared to stick around), rather than force the MPs to potentially have to leave if they challenge him and fail (given their actions have gone far beyond usual challenges)?
Where exactly do they think their ground troops and money is going to come from?
I don't see how this stand off ends with the current membership intact and the MPs as currently constituted in place, something has to give - either the MPs leave en masse, which isn't happening, or the membership cuts and runs, or the MPs learn to grab ankle for Jeremy.0 -
She has two months to tell us, as does May.felix said:
Err - what exactly is Andrea's plan - apart from only 1 year's tax info, telling Putin what for and being a mother?Indigo said:
Not sure most of the country of what ever political persuasion would look with a great deal of charity on the Tories if having pissed around for months over the referendum, and subsequently admitting that Dave & George didn't bother with little details like a plan, that they dilly dallied around for another three months electing a new leader while the markets got irritable, only to immediately chuck that leader out and spend another three months seeing if they could get a better answer.ToryJim said:
Possible there are draft letters ready to go in on Sep 10thTheScreamingEagles said:
Yup, if a Tory leader loses a vote of no confidence they are automatically barred from standing in the subsequent leadership contest.Barnesian said:Keiran says " This is different from the Conservatives where a leader defeated by a no confidence motion must go. "
Does this mean that if Leadsom is elected by Tory members, she could be deposed by a no confidence vote of the vast majority of Tory MPs who don't want her as PM? If so, yippee.
We know how to organise coups
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Throwing off the Euro-yoke will be worth it.SeanT said:You bastard LEAVE voters. Just booked a hire car for my trip to Switzerland tomorrow
Jeepers. The £.
Pffffff!!
Anyway, it'll just be a bigger tax-deduction. So give over.0 -
That's absurd. The Labour party membership is clearly not representative of the wider population. You can come up with all kinds of sophistry to avoid facing up to that fact, but it is the bottom line. And that's why Labour is set to become increasingly irrelevant.Danny565 said:
And again, a truly talented politician can get through any electorate. Tony Blair managed to win an overwhelming endorsement from the "Marxists" at one time, too.HYUFD said:
Because the electorate will be made up of normal people not 500 000 Marxists!!Danny565 said:Regardless of what technicalities can be found for Corbyn to be kept off the ballot, the bottom line is:
If Angela Eagle (or any other "moderate") thinks she can't even beat CORBYN in an election, how the hell is she going to have a chance against a far more formidable opponent in the Tories at the next General Election??
It should be a statement of the obvious that, if you can't even inspire your own troops behind you, you've not got a hope in hell of inspiring the country. An election is an election, and a lot of the skillset required to win elections applies across the board, no matter how different the electorates are -- if Eagle apparently feels she doesn't have the skills to win this particular election on merit, then that says it all.
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Blame the Swiss for having a proper economy.SeanT said:You bastard LEAVE voters. Just booked a hire car for my trip to Switzerland tomorrow
Jeepers. The £.
Pffffff!!
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Did you see that her accountants are late filing their own accounts https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/06889267kle4 said:
She has two months to tell us, as does May.felix said:
Err - what exactly is Andrea's plan - apart from only 1 year's tax info, telling Putin what for and being a mother?Indigo said:
Not sure most of the country of what ever political persuasion would look with a great deal of charity on the Tories if having pissed around for months over the referendum, and subsequently admitting that Dave & George didn't bother with little details like a plan, that they dilly dallied around for another three months electing a new leader while the markets got irritable, only to immediately chuck that leader out and spend another three months seeing if they could get a better answer.ToryJim said:
Possible there are draft letters ready to go in on Sep 10thTheScreamingEagles said:
Yup, if a Tory leader loses a vote of no confidence they are automatically barred from standing in the subsequent leadership contest.Barnesian said:Keiran says " This is different from the Conservatives where a leader defeated by a no confidence motion must go. "
Does this mean that if Leadsom is elected by Tory members, she could be deposed by a no confidence vote of the vast majority of Tory MPs who don't want her as PM? If so, yippee.
We know how to organise coups0 -
Having a lot of members has not produced many tangible benefits. Just destructive arguments and poor performances at the polls. Labour would live with a heavily reduced number of activists. Other parties manage fine.Danny565 said:
So they WANT to lose more than half the membership??kle4 said:I suppose the thinking behind keeping Corbyn off the ballot is it might cause an exodus of lefty members (presuming the non far lefties who also voted for him are more prepared to stick around), rather than force the MPs to potentially have to leave if they challenge him and fail (given their actions have gone far beyond usual challenges)?
Where exactly do they think their ground troops and money is going to come from?
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Given England has fought more wars against France than any other nation on earth, closely followed by Scotland, that is not that surprising, especially considering from the Jacobite rebellion back the Scots and French were often on the same sidemalcolmg said:
Our old friends the French for meTheScreamingEagles said:I trust all true English people are cheering for our oldest ally, Portugal, against the French.
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The film "Kind Hearts and Coronets" about to start on UK Gold ....
And before anyone asks it's not based on my life story .... too much ..
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I'm not really interested in politician's tax affairs to be honest - Leadsom has plenty against her as it is, the persecution complex of some of her supporters for a start.TheKrakenAwakes said:
Did you see that her accountants are late filing their own accounts https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/06889267kle4 said:
She has two months to tell us, as does May.felix said:
Err - what exactly is Andrea's plan - apart from only 1 year's tax info, telling Putin what for and being a mother?Indigo said:
Not sure most of the country of what ever political persuasion would look with a great deal of charity on the Tories if having pissed around for months over the referendum, and subsequently admitting that Dave & George didn't bother with little details like a plan, that they dilly dallied around for another three months electing a new leader while the markets got irritable, only to immediately chuck that leader out and spend another three months seeing if they could get a better answer.ToryJim said:
Possible there are draft letters ready to go in on Sep 10thTheScreamingEagles said:
Yup, if a Tory leader loses a vote of no confidence they are automatically barred from standing in the subsequent leadership contest.Barnesian said:Keiran says " This is different from the Conservatives where a leader defeated by a no confidence motion must go. "
Does this mean that if Leadsom is elected by Tory members, she could be deposed by a no confidence vote of the vast majority of Tory MPs who don't want her as PM? If so, yippee.
We know how to organise coups0 -
I am staying to Elect a left wing NEC this month and a more representative PLP.Danny565 said:
So they WANT to lose more than half the membership??kle4 said:I suppose the thinking behind keeping Corbyn off the ballot is it might cause an exodus of lefty members (presuming the non far lefties who also voted for him are more prepared to stick around), rather than force the MPs to potentially have to leave if they challenge him and fail (given their actions have gone far beyond usual challenges)?
Where exactly do they think their ground troops and money is going to come from?
I will do everything in my power to get rid of my current MP. If he is still a candidate in 2020 I will be long gone and will not vote Lab.
Chesterfield only voted for Blair once 19970 -
I would think that, if Corbyn is turfed out, it would embolden the Conservative MPs to do the same well before they get into the same sort of mess.Barnesian said:Keiran says " This is different from the Conservatives where a leader defeated by a no confidence motion must go. "
Does this mean that if Leadsom is elected by Tory members, she could be deposed by a no confidence vote of the vast majority of Tory MPs who don't want her as PM? If so, yippee.0 -
Whether or not the Labour Party membership is representative of the wider population is not relevant to the argument I was making. The point is that truly talented politicians can get through completely different types of electorate.SouthamObserver said:
That's absurd. The Labour party membership is clearly not representative of the wider population. You can come up with all kinds of sophistry to avoid facing up to that fact, but it is the bottom line. And that's why Labour is set to become increasingly irrelevant.Danny565 said:
And again, a truly talented politician can get through any electorate. Tony Blair managed to win an overwhelming endorsement from the "Marxists" at one time, too.HYUFD said:
Because the electorate will be made up of normal people not 500 000 Marxists!!Danny565 said:Regardless of what technicalities can be found for Corbyn to be kept off the ballot, the bottom line is:
If Angela Eagle (or any other "moderate") thinks she can't even beat CORBYN in an election, how the hell is she going to have a chance against a far more formidable opponent in the Tories at the next General Election??
It should be a statement of the obvious that, if you can't even inspire your own troops behind you, you've not got a hope in hell of inspiring the country. An election is an election, and a lot of the skillset required to win elections applies across the board, no matter how different the electorates are -- if Eagle apparently feels she doesn't have the skills to win this particular election on merit, then that says it all.
The 1994 Labour electorate and the 2005 Tory electorate were no more representative of the public than the 2016 Labour electorate is, but Blair and Cameron still managed to get through their own electorates before winning the general public -- because they were actually talented politicians who had the basic skills to inspire all sorts of people who had drastically different political priorities. If Eagle is not able to do that, then that in itself shows she's not a potential winner of a general election.0 -
They do good wine and french fries so hard not to like themHYUFD said:
Given England has fought more wars against France than any other nation on earth, closely followed by Scotland, that is not that surprising, especially considering from the Jacobite rebellion back the Scots and French were often on the same sidemalcolmg said:
Our old friends the French for meTheScreamingEagles said:I trust all true English people are cheering for our oldest ally, Portugal, against the French.
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As they will be soon.HYUFD said:
Given England has fought more wars against France than any other nation on earth, closely followed by Scotland, that is not that surprising, especially considering from the Jacobite rebellion back the Scots and French were often on the same sidemalcolmg said:
Our old friends the French for meTheScreamingEagles said:I trust all true English people are cheering for our oldest ally, Portugal, against the French.
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The ground troops won't by and large be affected, since very few of the post GE intake care for proper campaigning with the public at large as opposed to resolutionary socialism and groupthink on social media. Nor will it be the end of the world even if the income from memberships is halved and thus falls back to the levels that allowed the party to sustain the 2015 general election campaign. As for the income from the £3 "supporters"......Danny565 said:
So they WANT to lose more than half the membership??kle4 said:I suppose the thinking behind keeping Corbyn off the ballot is it might cause an exodus of lefty members (presuming the non far lefties who also voted for him are more prepared to stick around), rather than force the MPs to potentially have to leave if they challenge him and fail (given their actions have gone far beyond usual challenges)?
Where exactly do they think their ground troops and money is going to come from?0 -
Cheers - but I see all this as an opportunity. Something will emerge from the ashes and I suspect my views are more representative than those of the hard left. This was the millionaire founder of Momentum tweeting today:SeanT said:
If Corbyn runs then I can't see any way he loses. Supposedly another 100,000 have joined Labour in recent weeks. They haven't joined Labour to vote for Angela Eagle.SouthamObserver said:
I agree. It's hard to see the NEC keeping him off the ballot. There is too much doubt and so the safe thing to do is let Corbyn run.bigjohnowls said:On Topic
LOL
Presumably MPs have no right to stand in their deselction sorry i mean reselection meetings either.
The current NEC elections will also give Corbyn a strong majority on that body too IMO.
Basically Corbyn not on ballot is a non starter
What a spectacle. The death of one of the great British political parties now seems all-but-inevitable.
As you are a very decent lefty, you have my sympathy.
https://twitter.com/jonlansman/status/7520786127660277770 -
This seems conclusive. It's from the minutes of the committee that redrafted the rules six years ago.
https://mobile.twitter.com/thomaskgardiner/status/749664420834541568
It is clear that the rules were changed to ensure only challengers required nominating.
Labour are completely stuffed.0 -
If there is a scenario of Corbyn victory and mass resignations and/or deselections, then Labour will be going into the next election claiming to be offering an alternative government with almost no political experience whatsoever. They will have few with experience of even Shadow ministerial responsibility, let alone government experience. And i'm sure everyone will have full confidence in Labour's vetting procedures in such circumstances...0
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Can you be quiet please before the PLP passes the new emergency dress code and beard rule disbarring candidates from leadership ballot.TheScreamingEagles said:
I gave Jez some fashion advice shortly before he became leader. If only he had listened to me.foxinsoxuk said:
TSE in the fashion police? The world has gone truly mad.TheScreamingEagles said:
I though Corbyn unusually well turned out this morning. At least his clothes fitted for once!
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2015/09/11/some-fashion-advice-for-jeremy-corbyn/0 -
Ronaldo coming off.
Yeah, can happily support Portugal now!0 -
Tony Blair won in an electoral college of MPs, unions and party members who were not £3 Trotskyite entryists, Corbyn won amongst an electorate entirely made up of members and £3 Trotskyite entryists.Danny565 said:
And again, a truly talented politician can get through any electorate. Tony Blair managed to win an overwhelming endorsement from the "Marxists" at one time, too.HYUFD said:
Because the electorate will be made up of normal people not 500 000 Marxists!!Danny565 said:Regardless of what technicalities can be found for Corbyn to be kept off the ballot, the bottom line is:
If Angela Eagle (or any other "moderate") thinks she can't even beat CORBYN in an election, how the hell is she going to have a chance against a far more formidable opponent in the Tories at the next General Election??
It should be a statement of the obvious that, if you can't even inspire your own troops behind you, you've not got a hope in hell of inspiring the country. An election is an election, and a lot of the skillset required to win elections applies across the board, no matter how different the electorates are -- if Eagle apparently feels she doesn't have the skills to win this particular election on merit, then that says it all.
The fact that you cannot inspire such Trotskyite entryists far from damning you might actually at least give you a hearing with the middle England voters who decide general elections. Jesus Christ would not beat Corbyn amongst Labour members at present, unless he was caught reading the Communist manifesto rather than the Bible.
IDS won 60% of Tory members in 2001 but he was proved not up to the job and Tory MPs got rid of him. Corbyn won 60% of Labour members in 2015 and has been proved not up to the job but Labour MPs may not be able to get rid of him which is Labour's fundamental problem in a nutshell!0 -
Corbyn voters are by no means limited to just the "post GE intake". And Labour members who are Corbyn-sceptic, but who will nonetheless be outraged at the PLP trying to rig leadership elections and to split the party for their own egos, will go even deeper into the long-term membership base.Wulfrun_Phil said:
The ground troops won't by and large be affected, since very few of the post GE intake care for proper campaigning with the public at large as opposed to resolutionary socialism and groupthink on social media. Nor will it be the end of the world even if the income from memberships is halved and thus falls back to the levels that allowed the party to sustain the 2015 general election campaign. As for the income from the £3 "supporters"......Danny565 said:
So they WANT to lose more than half the membership??kle4 said:I suppose the thinking behind keeping Corbyn off the ballot is it might cause an exodus of lefty members (presuming the non far lefties who also voted for him are more prepared to stick around), rather than force the MPs to potentially have to leave if they challenge him and fail (given their actions have gone far beyond usual challenges)?
Where exactly do they think their ground troops and money is going to come from?0 -
Incredible ! WE have been lied to again !felix said:
I know plenty of pensioners who voted LEAVE, who did it for entirely unselfish reasons. Like my mumrcs1000 said:FPT:
I wonder. Certainly in the UK my disposable income since I got my teacher's pension has risen continually since 2009 thanks to indexing and tax cuts. Many millions? of pensioners are the same. Yet irritatingly it is the elderly who are among the most discontented and backwards looking. In short the group which has never had it so good seem the least content. Go figure.nunu said:
It is worth noting this trend is global. The last two decades being pretty horrible for most people in terms of disposable income almost everywhere in the developed world: the USA, Sweden, Finland, France, Italy, Germany, and Japan have all had stangnant median incomes for an extended period.rcs1000 said:
Ooh. Tpick Hilary over Bernie, all the polls show he easily beats Trump.Andy_Cooke said:
And it's something that politicians could and should have done something about - and could have done so if they'd just grasped the nettle on housing:nunu said:
I think that is right, because for most swing voters there has been no recovery, and many Leave voters have nothing to lose.MontyHall said:Also on the BBC Politics show today was a section, presented by a young woman from the remain campaign, analysing where it all went wrong for them.
Apparently, believing that parroting "It's the economy stupid" would resonate was one of their major misjudgements
America wants change!
(Maybe).
The three developed countries have totally avoided this trap are: Canada, Australia, and Norway.
What did they do that was different? They were commodity exporters during a commodity bull market. No more, no less.
She won't benefit from LEAVE - or REMAIN. She's nearly 80 and her health isn't great. In all honesty she'd be amazed if she lived another five years (and so would I). But she's got all her marbles and is entirely lucid and well-informed: she reads "the papers" every day - usually the Times (she's much better informed than most people under 30, in my experience)
She voted LEAVE because she thinks the EU is fundamentally undemocratic, and was sold to us on a lie, and she wants to hand on a free, democratic country to her beloved grandchildren.
This vote needs respect. Enough of this "selfish oldies" bollocks. A vote is a vote.0 -
Poisonous moth ends ronaldos match0
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LOL!MarqueeMark said:Ronaldo coming off.
Yeah, can happily support Portugal now!0 -
I saw that earlier, surely they should want bother rather than just ideological purity? That was the whole point of the Labour party, to bring power to the working classes.SouthamObserver said:
Cheers - but I see all this as an opportunity. Something will emerge from the ashes and I suspect my views are more representative than those of the hard left. This was the millionaire founder of Momentum tweeting today:SeanT said:
If Corbyn runs then I can't see any way he loses. Supposedly another 100,000 have joined Labour in recent weeks. They haven't joined Labour to vote for Angela Eagle.SouthamObserver said:
I agree. It's hard to see the NEC keeping him off the ballot. There is too much doubt and so the safe thing to do is let Corbyn run.bigjohnowls said:On Topic
LOL
Presumably MPs have no right to stand in their deselction sorry i mean reselection meetings either.
The current NEC elections will also give Corbyn a strong majority on that body too IMO.
Basically Corbyn not on ballot is a non starter
What a spectacle. The death of one of the great British political parties now seems all-but-inevitable.
As you are a very decent lefty, you have my sympathy.
https://twitter.com/jonlansman/status/752078612766027777
It seems to me Momentum are a comfortable group of people that are not directly affected by half the issues they campaign on, as such power to make change doesn't matter to them as much as complaining about the issues in front of them. Then drinking some port.0 -
So it's really the black and white view that you object to?TheScreamingEagles said:
Yup, I'm a frequent wearer of cream suits with blue shirts.RobD said:
Would cream trousers have solved it?TheScreamingEagles said:The one thing that really annoyed me about Corbyn's appearance on The Marr Show.
Blue shirt, cream jacket, and black trousers.
FFS, smarten up you scuff, you're a candidate to be Prime Minister.0 -
Britain and France were on the same side during Crimea (1850s), WW1, and WW2 (um, Mers-el-Kebir aside!).HYUFD said:
Given England has fought more wars against France than any other nation on earth, closely followed by Scotland, that is not that surprising, especially considering from the Jacobite rebellion back the Scots and French were often on the same sidemalcolmg said:
Our old friends the French for meTheScreamingEagles said:I trust all true English people are cheering for our oldest ally, Portugal, against the French.
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Oh noes, Ronaldo back on the pitch!
Back to supporting France.....0 -
And Suez...Sunil_Prasannan said:
Britain and France were on the same side during Crimea (1850s), WW1, and WW2 (um, Mers-el-Kebir aside!).HYUFD said:
Given England has fought more wars against France than any other nation on earth, closely followed by Scotland, that is not that surprising, especially considering from the Jacobite rebellion back the Scots and French were often on the same sidemalcolmg said:
Our old friends the French for meTheScreamingEagles said:I trust all true English people are cheering for our oldest ally, Portugal, against the French.
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Poisonous moth sacked for ineffective bite.paulyork64 said:Poisonous moth ends ronaldos match
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RONALDO !!!!!!!!!!!!0
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Has McTernan ever got a result correct , he is the kiss of death for anyone he supports or syas will win.SouthamObserver said:
Cheers - but I see all this as an opportunity. Something will emerge from the ashes and I suspect my views are more representative than those of the hard left. This was the millionaire founder of Momentum tweeting today:SeanT said:
If Corbyn runs then I can't see any way he loses. Supposedly another 100,000 have joined Labour in recent weeks. They haven't joined Labour to vote for Angela Eagle.SouthamObserver said:
I agree. It's hard to see the NEC keeping him off the ballot. There is too much doubt and so the safe thing to do is let Corbyn run.bigjohnowls said:On Topic
LOL
Presumably MPs have no right to stand in their deselction sorry i mean reselection meetings either.
The current NEC elections will also give Corbyn a strong majority on that body too IMO.
Basically Corbyn not on ballot is a non starter
What a spectacle. The death of one of the great British political parties now seems all-but-inevitable.
As you are a very decent lefty, you have my sympathy.
https://twitter.com/jonlansman/status/7520786127660277770 -
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Given the numbers I doubt they are all port swilling rich folks. Usual sloppy Tory assumptions.HaroldO said:
I saw that earlier, surely they should want bother rather than just ideological purity? That was the whole point of the Labour party, to bring power to the working classes.SouthamObserver said:
Cheers - but I see all this as an opportunity. Something will emerge from the ashes and I suspect my views are more representative than those of the hard left. This was the millionaire founder of Momentum tweeting today:SeanT said:
If Corbyn runs then I can't see any way he loses. Supposedly another 100,000 have joined Labour in recent weeks. They haven't joined Labour to vote for Angela Eagle.SouthamObserver said:
I agree. It's hard to see the NEC keeping him off the ballot. There is too much doubt and so the safe thing to do is let Corbyn run.bigjohnowls said:On Topic
LOL
Presumably MPs have no right to stand in their deselction sorry i mean reselection meetings either.
The current NEC elections will also give Corbyn a strong majority on that body too IMO.
Basically Corbyn not on ballot is a non starter
What a spectacle. The death of one of the great British political parties now seems all-but-inevitable.
As you are a very decent lefty, you have my sympathy.
https://twitter.com/jonlansman/status/752078612766027777
It seems to me Momentum are a comfortable group of people that are not directly affected by half the issues they campaign on, as such power to make change doesn't matter to them as much as complaining about the issues in front of them. Then drinking some port.0 -
A thought occurs:
- Labour is in this mess in the first place because some centrist Labour MPs (including Frank Field!) nominated Corbyn in 2015, hoping to 'broaden the debate' but not remotely expecting him to win
- Had they not done this he wouldn't have been on the ballot and Burnhamweight would be Leader of the Opposition
- If it is decided that Corbyn needs 51 nominations, he'd never do it 'organically'; this would require all 40 MPs who backed him in the no confidence vote plus 11/20 Labour MEPs
- Corbyn not being on the ballot would cause an enormous backlash among Momentum types, many would leave Labour but the party and its leader would be nevertheless damaged by division, accusations of having 'cheated', and the left-wingers trying to 'get their party back', deselecting MPs and soforth
- The moderate wing of the Labour party need one of theirs to face Corbyn and win 'fair and square' to have any chance of their party being reasonably united and electable
- The only hope for moderate Labour MPs, who are in this mess because some of them nominated Corbyn in 2015, is for some of them to nominate Corbyn in 2016!0 -
Nobody's decision on whether to vote Labour is going to be affected by whether lightweight career politicians like Liz Kendall and Tristram Hunt are standing as MP candidates.alex. said:If there is a scenario of Corbyn victory and mass resignations and/or deselections, then Labour will be going into the next election claiming to be offering an alternative government with almost no political experience whatsoever. They will have few with experience of even Shadow ministerial responsibility, let alone government experience. And i'm sure everyone will have full confidence in Labour's vetting procedures in such circumstances...
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Ronaldo currently the world's most expensive traffic bollard....0
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Moth tweets: i knew i'd done my job.paulyork64 said:
Poisonous moth sacked for ineffective bite.paulyork64 said:Poisonous moth ends ronaldos match
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Because they are entirely different electorates. The sea of hard-left entryists and £3 Tory idiots (step forward several PB posters) will re-elect Corbyn as they have no interest in Labour winning elections. The country wants a reasonable alternative to Conservatives. Labour's problem in a nutshell.Danny565 said:Regardless of what technicalities can be found for Corbyn to be kept off the ballot, the bottom line is:
If Angela Eagle (or any other "moderate") thinks she can't even beat CORBYN in an election, how the hell is she going to have a chance against a far more formidable opponent in the Tories at the next General Election??0 -
Can't the Sponsors make sure Ronaldo plays ? They did in 1998 !0
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Labour had been out of power for 15 years in 1994. The Tories had just lost their third general election in 2005. Both electorates wanted above all else for their parties to be in government. None of that applies in 2016 to a large number - perhaps the majority - of Labour members. The hard left has always disliked Parliamentary democracy and has hated Labour's embrace of it. This is their chance to make Labour a street movement. They like Tory governments as in their eyes they hasten the day the proletariat will rise up and seize power in order to create a truly socialist state. See Jon Lansman - Mr Momentum - Tweeting today.Danny565 said:
Whether or not the Labour Party membership is representative of the wider population is not relevant to the argument I was making. The point is that truly talented politicians can get through completely different types of electorate.SouthamObserver said:
That's absurd. The Labour party membership is clearly not representative of the wider population. You can come up with all kinds of sophistry to avoid facing up to that fact, but it is the bottom line. And that's why Labour is set to become increasingly irrelevant.Danny565 said:
And again, a truly talented politician can get through any electorate. Tony Blair managed to win an overwhelming endorsement from the "Marxists" at one time, too.HYUFD said:
Because the electorate will be made up of normal people not 500 000 Marxists!!Danny565 said:Regardless of what technicalities can be found for Corbyn to be kept off the ballot, the bottom line is:
If Angela Eagle (or any other "moderate") thinks she can't even beat CORBYN in an election, how the hell is she going to have a chance against a far more formidable opponent in the Tories at the next General Election??
It should be a statement of the obvious that, if you can't even inspire your own troops behind you, you've not got a hope in hell of inspiring the country. An election is an election, and a lot of the skillset required to win elections applies across the board, no matter how different the electorates are -- if Eagle apparently feels she doesn't have the skills to win this particular election on merit, then that says it all.
The 1994 Labour electorate and the 2005 Tory electorate were no more representative of the public than the 2016 Labour electorate is, but Blair and Cameron still managed to get through their own electorates before winning the general public -- because they were actually talented politicians who had the basic skills to inspire all sorts of people who had drastically different political priorities. If Eagle is not able to do that, then that in itself shows she's not a potential winner of a general election.
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It will be the formerSeanT said:
I have me doots.surbiton said:
As they will be soon.HYUFD said:
Given England has fought more wars against France than any other nation on earth, closely followed by Scotland, that is not that surprising, especially considering from the Jacobite rebellion back the Scots and French were often on the same sidemalcolmg said:
Our old friends the French for meTheScreamingEagles said:I trust all true English people are cheering for our oldest ally, Portugal, against the French.
The way the EU is responding to Brexit - more integration, hegemonic Franco-German alliance, forced euro membership - makes rejoining the EU look increasingly unpalatable by the day.
Will Scotland really divorce from England to become a tiny colony of Brussels? Really??
Hm. Or will they look at that famous arc of prosperity, including Iceland and Norway, and note that it is in EFTA, not the EU? Just like England?0 -
But nobody wants experience or experts anymore, do they?alex. said:If there is a scenario of Corbyn victory and mass resignations and/or deselections, then Labour will be going into the next election claiming to be offering an alternative government with almost no political experience whatsoever. They will have few with experience of even Shadow ministerial responsibility, let alone government experience. And i'm sure everyone will have full confidence in Labour's vetting procedures in such circumstances...
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He ran round for 5 mins but then cant even walk off the pitch. Drama queen.0
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Well he has been stretchered off, if not sent offpaulyork64 said:
Portugal to win. Ronaldo to be sent off.TheScreamingEagles said:I trust all true English people are cheering for our oldest ally, Portugal, against the French.
0 -
-
I am spending Xmas in Poland, fully expect to be cross questioned by everyone I meet as to why we voted Brexit.SeanT said:
Yes indeed. I have several dinners and lunches with some Swiss dudes and dudettes, quite high up in the tourism industry.HYUFD said:
Mind you you are at least going to a non-EU nation and one of our future likely partners in EFTA, would be interesting to see if, as a Brit, you get a warm welcome, I hope so!SeanT said:You bastard LEAVE voters. Just booked a hire car for my trip to Switzerland tomorrow
Jeepers. The £.
Pffffff!!
Will be fascinating to get their take on Brexit. In my experience, so far, Europeans are deeply intrigued by what we've done - in good and bad ways.
I may just stay drunk the entire time.0 -
Carried off the pitch in the UEFA Sedan Chair....paulyork64 said:He ran round for 5 mins but then cant even walk off the pitch. Drama queen.
0 -
Danny565 said:
Whether or not the Labour Party membership is representative of the wider population is not relevant to the argument I was making. The point is that truly talented politicians can get through completely different types of electorate.SouthamObserver said:
That's absurd. The Labour party membership is clearly not representative of the wider population. You can come up with all kinds of sophistry to avoid facing up to that fact, but it is the bottom line. And that's why Labour is set to become increasingly irrelevant.Danny565 said:
And again, a truly talented politician can get through any electorate. Tony Blair managed to win an overwhelming endorsement from the "Marxists" at one time, too.HYUFD said:
Because the electorate will be made up of normal people not 500 000 Marxists!!Danny565 said:Regardless of what technicalities can be found for Corbyn to be kept off the ballot, the bottom line is:
If Angela Eagle (or any other "moderate") thinks she can't even beat CORBYN in an election, how the hell is she going to have a chance against a far more formidable opponent in the Tories at the next General Election??
It should be a statement of the obvious that, if you can't even inspire your own troops behind you, you've not got a hope in hell of inspiring the country. An election is an election, and a lot of the skillset required to win elections applies across the board, no matter how different the electorates are -- if Eagle apparently feels she doesn't have the skills to win this particular election on merit, then that says it all.
The 1994 Labour electorate and the 2005 Tory electorate were no more representative of the public than the 2016 Labour electorate is, but Blair and Cameron still managed to get through their own electorates before winning the general public -- because they were actually talented politicians who had the basic skills to inspire all sorts of people who had drastically different political priorities. If Eagle is not able to do that, then that in itself shows she's not a potential winner of a general election.
When you get over 100,000 people signing up in a week to vote specifically for a candidate, it's an impossible task. Whether the pre 2015 members still support Corbyn would be interesting to see if we do get a leadership contest. The YouGov poll of Labour members suggested a move against.0 -
But they also don't want a party to follow the main planks of the Remain Campaign, as shown by the result of the referendum -- yet, as far as I can tell, that is what the Labour "moderates" would offer.Monty said:The country wants a reasonable alternative to Conservatives. Labour's problem in a nutshell.
0 -
Yes but they were on opposite sides in the Norman conquest, the Hundred Years War, the War of Spanish Succession, the War of Austrian Succession, the Seven Years' War, the US War of Independence, the French Revolutionary Wars and the Napoleonic Wars to mention just a few, which rather outweighs the few times they have been allies in more recent yearsSunil_Prasannan said:
Britain and France were on the same side during Crimea (1850s), WW1, and WW2 (um, Mers-el-Kebir aside!).HYUFD said:
Given England has fought more wars against France than any other nation on earth, closely followed by Scotland, that is not that surprising, especially considering from the Jacobite rebellion back the Scots and French were often on the same sidemalcolmg said:
Our old friends the French for meTheScreamingEagles said:I trust all true English people are cheering for our oldest ally, Portugal, against the French.
0 -
I suspect that Corbyn would have trouble with the civil service if he ever came to power too, or at least McDonnell would. (That may be fixed very quickly mind you)alex. said:If there is a scenario of Corbyn victory and mass resignations and/or deselections, then Labour will be going into the next election claiming to be offering an alternative government with almost no political experience whatsoever. They will have few with experience of even Shadow ministerial responsibility, let alone government experience. And i'm sure everyone will have full confidence in Labour's vetting procedures in such circumstances...
His real problem is that he's a nutter. The world and his wife would object to him in a position of power.
0 -
Surely we were on the same side in the Norman Conquest?HYUFD said:
Yes but they were on opposite sides in the Norman conquest, the Hundred Years War, the War of Spanish Succession, the War of Austrian Succession, the Seven Years' War, the French Revolutionary Wars and the Napoleonic Wars to mention just a few, which rather outweighs the few times they have been allies in more recent yearsSunil_Prasannan said:
Britain and France were on the same side during Crimea (1850s), WW1, and WW2 (um, Mers-el-Kebir aside!).HYUFD said:
Given England has fought more wars against France than any other nation on earth, closely followed by Scotland, that is not that surprising, especially considering from the Jacobite rebellion back the Scots and French were often on the same sidemalcolmg said:
Our old friends the French for meTheScreamingEagles said:I trust all true English people are cheering for our oldest ally, Portugal, against the French.
0 -
SeanT said:
I see you've changed the medication to pro-Brexit again. We all know it won't last - saint SeanT even with a nice mummy just won't cut it. Clearly as a mother your mum deserves at least 2 votes.felix said:
I know plenty of pensioners who voted LEAVE, who did it for entirely unselfish reasons. Like my mumrcs1000 said:FPT:
I wonder. Certainly in the UK my disposable income since I got my teacher's pension has risen continually since 2009 thanks to indexing and tax cuts. Many millions? of pensioners are the same. Yet irritatingly it is the elderly who are among the most discontented and backwards looking. In short the group which has never had it so good seem the least content. Go figure.nunu said:
It is worth noting this trend is global. The last two decades being pretty horrible for most people in terms of disposable income almost everywhere in the developed world: the USA, Sweden, Finland, France, Italy, Germany, and Japan have all had stangnant median incomes for an extended period.rcs1000 said:
Ooh. Tpick Hilary over Bernie, all the polls show he easily beats Trump.Andy_Cooke said:
And it's something that politicians could and should have done something about - and could have done so if they'd just grasped the nettle on housing:nunu said:
I think that is right, because for most swing voters there has been no recovery, and many Leave voters have nothing to lose.MontyHall said:Also on the BBC Politics show today was a section, presented by a young woman from the remain campaign, analysing where it all went wrong for them.
Apparently, believing that parroting "It's the economy stupid" would resonate was one of their major misjudgements
America wants change!
(Maybe).
The three developed countries have totally avoided this trap are: Canada, Australia, and Norway.
What did they do that was different? They were commodity exporters during a commodity bull market. No more, no less.
She won't benefit from LEAVE - or REMAIN. She's nearly 80 and her health isn't great. In all honesty she'd be amazed if she lived another five years (and so would I). But she's got all her marbles and is entirely lucid and well-informed: she reads "the papers" every day - usually the Times (she's much better informed than most people under 30, in my experience)
She voted LEAVE because she thinks the EU is fundamentally undemocratic, and was sold to us on a lie, and she wants to hand on a free, democratic country to her beloved grandchildren.
This vote needs respect. Enough of this "selfish oldies" bollocks. A vote is a vote.0 -
The family thought so. However Ealing Studios indicated the British Board of Film Censors probably wouldn't allowing any screenings due to likely mass audience panic over seeing such comestible delights following years of rationing.ToryJim said:0 -
I expect we will join the EUSeanT said:
So Scotland will leave the UK, but not join the EU?malcolmg said:
It will be the formerSeanT said:
I have me doots.surbiton said:
As they will be soon.HYUFD said:
Given England has fought more wars against France than any other nation on earth, closely followed by Scotland, that is not that surprising, especially considering from the Jacobite rebellion back the Scots and French were often on the same sidemalcolmg said:
Our old friends the French for meTheScreamingEagles said:I trust all true English people are cheering for our oldest ally, Portugal, against the French.
The way the EU is responding to Brexit - more integration, hegemonic Franco-German alliance, forced euro membership - makes rejoining the EU look increasingly unpalatable by the day.
Will Scotland really divorce from England to become a tiny colony of Brussels? Really??
Hm. Or will they look at that famous arc of prosperity, including Iceland and Norway, and note that it is in EFTA, not the EU? Just like England?0 -
Yet to be determined what a modern Labour Party would offer post-Brexit. We should find out soon one way or another. Either Corbyn goes or Labour splits. Also hard to know what the Tories will look like.Danny565 said:
But they also don't want a party to follow the main planks of the Remain Campaign, as shown by the result of the referendum -- yet, as far as I can tell, that is what the Labour "moderates" would offer.Monty said:The country wants a reasonable alternative to Conservatives. Labour's problem in a nutshell.
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Poland is much like here in terms of the split in support, the working classes dislike the EU and are becoming a little insular (hence the current government) and the middle classes that have enjoyed the spoils of joining the EU a lot more and been affected by the negatives much less. My girlfriend is from the latter whom I fully expect to get cross examined by, the former are a lot of her mates that still live back there who will be more understanding.SeanT said:
From my reading of European websites, the Poles are amongst the most sympathetic to Brexit.HaroldO said:
I am spending Xmas in Poland, fully expect to be cross questioned by everyone I meet as to why we voted Brexit.SeanT said:
Yes indeed. I have several dinners and lunches with some Swiss dudes and dudettes, quite high up in the tourism industry.HYUFD said:
Mind you you are at least going to a non-EU nation and one of our future likely partners in EFTA, would be interesting to see if, as a Brit, you get a warm welcome, I hope so!SeanT said:You bastard LEAVE voters. Just booked a hire car for my trip to Switzerland tomorrow
Jeepers. The £.
Pffffff!!
Will be fascinating to get their take on Brexit. In my experience, so far, Europeans are deeply intrigued by what we've done - in good and bad ways.
I may just stay drunk the entire time.
Either way most of them don't speak a lot of English and I speak only a little Polish, so drink should solve the problem.
0 -
So then why don't Angela Eagle and the "moderates" think THEY can get 100,000 people signing up a week to support them in the leadership election? If they believe they can't inspire the public enough now, how would they be able to inspire the public in the next general election?Artist said:
When you get over 100,000 people signing up in a week to vote specifically for a candidate, it's an impossible task.0 -
And, the person who will beat the Tories is a wet lettuce ? You must be joking !Monty said:
Because they are entirely different electorates. The sea of hard-left entryists and £3 Tory idiots (step forward several PB posters) will re-elect Corbyn as they have no interest in Labour winning elections. The country wants a reasonable alternative to Conservatives. Labour's problem in a nutshell.Danny565 said:Regardless of what technicalities can be found for Corbyn to be kept off the ballot, the bottom line is:
If Angela Eagle (or any other "moderate") thinks she can't even beat CORBYN in an election, how the hell is she going to have a chance against a far more formidable opponent in the Tories at the next General Election??0 -
Did you see the latest polling among EU countries? Or don't you want to look when it doesn't fit your silly narrative.SeanT said:
I have me doots.surbiton said:
As they will be soon.HYUFD said:
Given England has fought more wars against France than any other nation on earth, closely followed by Scotland, that is not that surprising, especially considering from the Jacobite rebellion back the Scots and French were often on the same sidemalcolmg said:
Our old friends the French for meTheScreamingEagles said:I trust all true English people are cheering for our oldest ally, Portugal, against the French.
The way the EU is responding to Brexit - more integration, hegemonic Franco-German alliance, forced euro membership - makes rejoining the EU look increasingly unpalatable by the day.
Will Scotland really divorce from England to become a tiny colony of Brussels? Really??
Hm. Or will they look at that famous arc of prosperity, including Iceland and Norway, and note that it is in EFTA, not the EU? Just like England?0 -
What was Lansman's tweet?0
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Oh I am not anti French, some of my ancestors were Huguenotsmalcolmg said:
They do good wine and french fries so hard not to like themHYUFD said:
Given England has fought more wars against France than any other nation on earth, closely followed by Scotland, that is not that surprising, especially considering from the Jacobite rebellion back the Scots and French were often on the same sidemalcolmg said:
Our old friends the French for meTheScreamingEagles said:I trust all true English people are cheering for our oldest ally, Portugal, against the French.
0 -
Not forgetting the french interfering in the american war of independence/revolution.alex. said:
Surely we were on the same side in the Norman Conquest?HYUFD said:
Yes but they were on opposite sides in the Norman conquest, the Hundred Years War, the War of Spanish Succession, the War of Austrian Succession, the Seven Years' War, the French Revolutionary Wars and the Napoleonic Wars to mention just a few, which rather outweighs the few times they have been allies in more recent yearsSunil_Prasannan said:
Britain and France were on the same side during Crimea (1850s), WW1, and WW2 (um, Mers-el-Kebir aside!).HYUFD said:
Given England has fought more wars against France than any other nation on earth, closely followed by Scotland, that is not that surprising, especially considering from the Jacobite rebellion back the Scots and French were often on the same sidemalcolmg said:
Our old friends the French for meTheScreamingEagles said:I trust all true English people are cheering for our oldest ally, Portugal, against the French.
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So, the 800k will go back ? How will I get my Polish bread ?SeanT said:
From my reading of European websites, the Poles are amongst the most sympathetic to Brexit.HaroldO said:
I am spending Xmas in Poland, fully expect to be cross questioned by everyone I meet as to why we voted Brexit.SeanT said:
Yes indeed. I have several dinners and lunches with some Swiss dudes and dudettes, quite high up in the tourism industry.HYUFD said:
Mind you you are at least going to a non-EU nation and one of our future likely partners in EFTA, would be interesting to see if, as a Brit, you get a warm welcome, I hope so!SeanT said:You bastard LEAVE voters. Just booked a hire car for my trip to Switzerland tomorrow
Jeepers. The £.
Pffffff!!
Will be fascinating to get their take on Brexit. In my experience, so far, Europeans are deeply intrigued by what we've done - in good and bad ways.
I may just stay drunk the entire time.0 -
The Sturgeon and Hollande alliancesurbiton said:
As they will be soon.HYUFD said:
Given England has fought more wars against France than any other nation on earth, closely followed by Scotland, that is not that surprising, especially considering from the Jacobite rebellion back the Scots and French were often on the same sidemalcolmg said:
Our old friends the French for meTheScreamingEagles said:I trust all true English people are cheering for our oldest ally, Portugal, against the French.
0 -
Eagle is obviously a stalking horse. Surely, you can see that?surbiton said:
And, the person who will beat the Tories is a wet lettuce ? You must be joking !Monty said:
Because they are entirely different electorates. The sea of hard-left entryists and £3 Tory idiots (step forward several PB posters) will re-elect Corbyn as they have no interest in Labour winning elections. The country wants a reasonable alternative to Conservatives. Labour's problem in a nutshell.Danny565 said:Regardless of what technicalities can be found for Corbyn to be kept off the ballot, the bottom line is:
If Angela Eagle (or any other "moderate") thinks she can't even beat CORBYN in an election, how the hell is she going to have a chance against a far more formidable opponent in the Tories at the next General Election??
0 -
It's quite easy to make to be honest.surbiton said:
So, the 800k will go back ? How will I get my Polish bread ?SeanT said:
From my reading of European websites, the Poles are amongst the most sympathetic to Brexit.HaroldO said:
I am spending Xmas in Poland, fully expect to be cross questioned by everyone I meet as to why we voted Brexit.SeanT said:
Yes indeed. I have several dinners and lunches with some Swiss dudes and dudettes, quite high up in the tourism industry.HYUFD said:
Mind you you are at least going to a non-EU nation and one of our future likely partners in EFTA, would be interesting to see if, as a Brit, you get a warm welcome, I hope so!SeanT said:You bastard LEAVE voters. Just booked a hire car for my trip to Switzerland tomorrow
Jeepers. The £.
Pffffff!!
Will be fascinating to get their take on Brexit. In my experience, so far, Europeans are deeply intrigued by what we've done - in good and bad ways.
I may just stay drunk the entire time.0 -
Worth noting this too ...SeanT said:
Lansman since finessed his tweet, but I believe the mask slipped. The Corbynites really do think they can possibly engineer a revolution of the plebs, and if they can't, fuck it, they can be agreeably pure and righteous in perpetual opposition (and fight enjoyable internecine wars interim).SouthamObserver said:
Labour had been out of power for 15 years in 1994. The Tories had just lost their third general election in 2005. Both electorates wanted above all else for their parties to be in government. None of that applies in 2016 to a large number - perhaps the majority - of Labour members. The hard left has always disliked Parliamentary democracy and has hated Labour's embrace of it. This is their chance to make Labour a street movement. They like Tory governments as in their eyes they hasten the day the proletariat will rise up and seize power in order to create a truly socialist state. See Jon Lansman - Mr Momentum - Tweeting today.Danny565 said:
Whethenot able to do that, then that in itself shows she's not a potential winner of a general election.SouthamObserver said:
That's absurd. The Labour party membership is clearly not representative of the wider population. You can come up with all kinds of sophistry to avoid facing up to that fact, but it is the bottom line. And that's why Labour is set to become increasingly irrelevant.Danny565 said:
And again, lections applies across the board, no matter how different the electorates are -- if Eagle apparently feels she doesn't have the skills to win this particular election on merit, then that says it all.HYUFD said:
Because the electorate will be made up of normal people not 500 000 Marxists!!Danny565 said:Regardless of what technicalities can be found for Corbyn to be kept off the ballot, the bottom line is:
If Angela Eagle (or any other "moderate") thinks she can't even beat CORBYN in an election, how the hell is she going to have a chance against a far more formidable opponent in the Tories at the next General Election??
How they must envy UKIP, who really HAVE changed the political landscape in a way lefties can only dream.
https://twitter.com/benpbradshaw/status/752063854776029184
0 -
Well, all the PLP moderates (including Eagle) were just enthusiastically cheering on the Remain Campaign, and saying Labour should've been even more vocal in supporting it. Do you not think it's worrying that they completely failed to foresee how badly the Remain campaign would go over with the public? And does it not follow to assume that, if their reading of the public mood was so bad on the EU, they would have similarly terrible misreadings of the public mood on all sorts of other issues if they took control of the party?Monty said:
Yet to be determined what a modern Labour Party would offer post-Brexit. We should find out soon one way or another. Either Corbyn goes or Labour splits. Also hard to know what the Tories will look like.Danny565 said:
But they also don't want a party to follow the main planks of the Remain Campaign, as shown by the result of the referendum -- yet, as far as I can tell, that is what the Labour "moderates" would offer.Monty said:The country wants a reasonable alternative to Conservatives. Labour's problem in a nutshell.
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If May gets in we will join EFTA and the EFTA Norwegians were the most pro UK in the pollingfelix said:
Did you see the latest polling among EU countries? Or don't you want to look when it doesn't fit your silly narrative.SeanT said:
I have me doots.surbiton said:
As they will be soon.HYUFD said:
Given England has fought more wars against France than any other nation on earth, closely followed by Scotland, that is not that surprising, especially considering from the Jacobite rebellion back the Scots and French were often on the same sidemalcolmg said:
Our old friends the French for meTheScreamingEagles said:I trust all true English people are cheering for our oldest ally, Portugal, against the French.
The way the EU is responding to Brexit - more integration, hegemonic Franco-German alliance, forced euro membership - makes rejoining the EU look increasingly unpalatable by the day.
Will Scotland really divorce from England to become a tiny colony of Brussels? Really??
Hm. Or will they look at that famous arc of prosperity, including Iceland and Norway, and note that it is in EFTA, not the EU? Just like England?0 -
Reminds me, we are Europeans after all.alex. said:
Surely we were on the same side in the Norman Conquest?HYUFD said:
Yes but they were on opposite sides in the Norman conquest, the Hundred Years War, the War of Spanish Succession, the War of Austrian Succession, the Seven Years' War, the French Revolutionary Wars and the Napoleonic Wars to mention just a few, which rather outweighs the few times they have been allies in more recent yearsSunil_Prasannan said:
Britain and France were on the same side during Crimea (1850s), WW1, and WW2 (um, Mers-el-Kebir aside!).HYUFD said:
Given England has fought more wars against France than any other nation on earth, closely followed by Scotland, that is not that surprising, especially considering from the Jacobite rebellion back the Scots and French were often on the same sidemalcolmg said:
Our old friends the French for meTheScreamingEagles said:I trust all true English people are cheering for our oldest ally, Portugal, against the French.
0 -
King Harold may have begged to differalex. said:
Surely we were on the same side in the Norman Conquest?HYUFD said:
Yes but they were on opposite sides in the Norman conquest, the Hundred Years War, the War of Spanish Succession, the War of Austrian Succession, the Seven Years' War, the French Revolutionary Wars and the Napoleonic Wars to mention just a few, which rather outweighs the few times they have been allies in more recent yearsSunil_Prasannan said:
Britain and France were on the same side during Crimea (1850s), WW1, and WW2 (um, Mers-el-Kebir aside!).HYUFD said:
Given England has fought more wars against France than any other nation on earth, closely followed by Scotland, that is not that surprising, especially considering from the Jacobite rebellion back the Scots and French were often on the same sidemalcolmg said:
Our old friends the French for meTheScreamingEagles said:I trust all true English people are cheering for our oldest ally, Portugal, against the French.
0 -
Sorry ud already covered that.paulyork64 said:
Not forgetting the french interfering in the american war of independence/revolution.alex. said:
Surely we were on the same side in the Norman Conquest?HYUFD said:
Yes but they were on opposite sides in the Norman conquest, the Hundred Years War, the War of Spanish Succession, the War of Austrian Succession, the Seven Years' War, the French Revolutionary Wars and the Napoleonic Wars to mention just a few, which rather outweighs the few times they have been allies in more recent yearsSunil_Prasannan said:
Britain and France were on the same side during Crimea (1850s), WW1, and WW2 (um, Mers-el-Kebir aside!).HYUFD said:
Given England has fought more wars against France than any other nation on earth, closely followed by Scotland, that is not that surprising, especially considering from the Jacobite rebellion back the Scots and French were often on the same sidemalcolmg said:
Our old friends the French for meTheScreamingEagles said:I trust all true English people are cheering for our oldest ally, Portugal, against the French.
0 -
Agreed - I actually expect we will either way to be honest - unless Leadsom is determined to trash the UK economy completely.HYUFD said:
If May gets in we will join EFTA and the EFTA Norwegians were the most pro UK in the pollingfelix said:
Did you see the latest polling among EU countries? Or don't you want to look when it doesn't fit your silly narrative.SeanT said:
I have me doots.surbiton said:
As they will be soon.HYUFD said:
Given England has fought more wars against France than any other nation on earth, closely followed by Scotland, that is not that surprising, especially considering from the Jacobite rebellion back the Scots and French were often on the same sidemalcolmg said:
Our old friends the French for meTheScreamingEagles said:I trust all true English people are cheering for our oldest ally, Portugal, against the French.
The way the EU is responding to Brexit - more integration, hegemonic Franco-German alliance, forced euro membership - makes rejoining the EU look increasingly unpalatable by the day.
Will Scotland really divorce from England to become a tiny colony of Brussels? Really??
Hm. Or will they look at that famous arc of prosperity, including Iceland and Norway, and note that it is in EFTA, not the EU? Just like England?0 -
"The PLP trying to rig leadership elections and to split the party for their own egos". Your perspective, not mine. I think that Neil Kinnock had a better take on it, as has Keiran Pedley above.Danny565 said:
Corbyn voters are by no means limited to just the "post GE intake". And Labour members who are Corbyn-sceptic, but who will nonetheless be outraged at the PLP trying to rig leadership elections and to split the party for their own egos, will go even deeper into the long-term membership base.Wulfrun_Phil said:
The ground troops won't by and large be affected, since very few of the post GE intake care for proper campaigning with the public at large as opposed to resolutionary socialism and groupthink on social media. Nor will it be the end of the world even if the income from memberships is halved and thus falls back to the levels that allowed the party to sustain the 2015 general election campaign. As for the income from the £3 "supporters"......Danny565 said:
So they WANT to lose more than half the membership??kle4 said:I suppose the thinking behind keeping Corbyn off the ballot is it might cause an exodus of lefty members (presuming the non far lefties who also voted for him are more prepared to stick around), rather than force the MPs to potentially have to leave if they challenge him and fail (given their actions have gone far beyond usual challenges)?
Where exactly do they think their ground troops and money is going to come from?
Many of the existing membership who voted for Corbyn have turned against him. But, more importantly, look at the polls and you'll see that there are all too few "Corbyn voters" amongst the wider public. Most electors think Corbyn should go and are yearning for an effective parliamentary opposition with a new leader.0 -
Stalking horse for who? Which specific candidate would perform better in a general election than Corbyn would?Monty said:
Eagle is obviously a stalking horse. Surely, you can see that?surbiton said:
And, the person who will beat the Tories is a wet lettuce ? You must be joking !Monty said:
Because they are entirely different electorates. The sea of hard-left entryists and £3 Tory idiots (step forward several PB posters) will re-elect Corbyn as they have no interest in Labour winning elections. The country wants a reasonable alternative to Conservatives. Labour's problem in a nutshell.Danny565 said:Regardless of what technicalities can be found for Corbyn to be kept off the ballot, the bottom line is:
If Angela Eagle (or any other "moderate") thinks she can't even beat CORBYN in an election, how the hell is she going to have a chance against a far more formidable opponent in the Tories at the next General Election??
"Corbyn is not doing well" is not the same thing as "there is someone else available who would do better than Corbyn".0 -
Yes added that too nowpaulyork64 said:
Not forgetting the french interfering in the american war of independence/revolution.alex. said:
Surely we were on the same side in the Norman Conquest?HYUFD said:
Yes but they were on opposite sides in the Norman conquest, the Hundred Years War, the War of Spanish Succession, the War of Austrian Succession, the Seven Years' War, the French Revolutionary Wars and the Napoleonic Wars to mention just a few, which rather outweighs the few times they have been allies in more recent yearsSunil_Prasannan said:
Britain and France were on the same side during Crimea (1850s), WW1, and WW2 (um, Mers-el-Kebir aside!).HYUFD said:
Given England has fought more wars against France than any other nation on earth, closely followed by Scotland, that is not that surprising, especially considering from the Jacobite rebellion back the Scots and French were often on the same sidemalcolmg said:
Our old friends the French for meTheScreamingEagles said:I trust all true English people are cheering for our oldest ally, Portugal, against the French.
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Yeah, but a horse without a rider (behave). There is simply no-one at all that can take matters forward. (Well maybe the postman's time has come)Monty said:
Eagle is obviously a stalking horse. Surely, you can see that?surbiton said:
And, the person who will beat the Tories is a wet lettuce ? You must be joking !Monty said:
Because they are entirely different electorates. The sea of hard-left entryists and £3 Tory idiots (step forward several PB posters) will re-elect Corbyn as they have no interest in Labour winning elections. The country wants a reasonable alternative to Conservatives. Labour's problem in a nutshell.Danny565 said:Regardless of what technicalities can be found for Corbyn to be kept off the ballot, the bottom line is:
If Angela Eagle (or any other "moderate") thinks she can't even beat CORBYN in an election, how the hell is she going to have a chance against a far more formidable opponent in the Tories at the next General Election??
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It's possible. But I'd still rather trust an out-of-touch group of Labour moderates to get it right instead of the political death-cult that is Corbynism.Danny565 said:
Well, all the PLP moderates (including Eagle) were just enthusiastically cheering on the Remain Campaign, and saying Labour should've been even more vocal in supporting it. Do you not think it's worrying that they completely failed to foresee how badly the Remain campaign would go over with the public? And does it not follow to assume that, if their reading of the public mood was so bad on the EU, they would have similarly terrible misreadings of the public mood on all sorts of other issues if they took control of the party?Monty said:
Yet to be determined what a modern Labour Party would offer post-Brexit. We should find out soon one way or another. Either Corbyn goes or Labour splits. Also hard to know what the Tories will look like.Danny565 said:
But they also don't want a party to follow the main planks of the Remain Campaign, as shown by the result of the referendum -- yet, as far as I can tell, that is what the Labour "moderates" would offer.Monty said:The country wants a reasonable alternative to Conservatives. Labour's problem in a nutshell.
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Looks like I hit the nerve which the off the shelf medications missed. Go on have another drink dear.SeanT said:
WTF are you talking about you bitter old expat twat? I hope your teacher's pension is reduced to zero by devaluation and you have to eat Spanish weeds to fill your wizened stomach.felix said:
Did you see the latest polling among EU countries? Or don't you want to look when it doesn't fit your silly narrative.SeanT said:
I have me doots.surbiton said:
As they will be soon.HYUFD said:
Given England has fought more wars against France than any other nation on earth, closely followed by Scotland, that is not that surprising, especially considering from the Jacobite rebellion back the Scots and French were often on the same sidemalcolmg said:
Our old friends the French for meTheScreamingEagles said:I trust all true English people are cheering for our oldest ally, Portugal, against the French.
The way the EU is responding to Brexit - more integration, hegemonic Franco-German alliance, forced euro membership - makes rejoining the EU look increasingly unpalatable by the day.
Will Scotland really divorce from England to become a tiny colony of Brussels? Really??
Hm. Or will they look at that famous arc of prosperity, including Iceland and Norway, and note that it is in EFTA, not the EU? Just like England?
Fuck off. Go on, fuck off. Get off the site. Get off. Get off. You're the skin cancer on the arse of Europe. A liver spot amongst men. You're one of THEM now, and don't deserve the name BRITON.
UGH.0 -
Chuka Umunna, Dan Jarvis to name but a few, however what Labour needs now is not an election winner but someone to steady the ship, a Michael Howard to Corbyn's IDSDanny565 said:
Stalking horse for who? Which specific candidate would perform better in a general election than Corbyn would?Monty said:
Eagle is obviously a stalking horse. Surely, you can see that?surbiton said:
And, the person who will beat the Tories is a wet lettuce ? You must be joking !Monty said:
Because they are entirely different electorates. The sea of hard-left entryists and £3 Tory idiots (step forward several PB posters) will re-elect Corbyn as they have no interest in Labour winning elections. The country wants a reasonable alternative to Conservatives. Labour's problem in a nutshell.Danny565 said:Regardless of what technicalities can be found for Corbyn to be kept off the ballot, the bottom line is:
If Angela Eagle (or any other "moderate") thinks she can't even beat CORBYN in an election, how the hell is she going to have a chance against a far more formidable opponent in the Tories at the next General Election??
"Corbyn is not doing well" is not the same thing as "there is someone else available who would do better than Corbyn".0 -
As opposed to the Corbynista open door immigration, not wanting to govern, anti-Trident, pro-IRA, proHamas, anti-monarchy line they are crying out for in Nuneaton and Bury :-DDanny565 said:
Well, all the PLP moderates (including Eagle) were just enthusiastically cheering on the Remain Campaign, and saying Labour should've been even more vocal in supporting it. Do you not think it's worrying that they completely failed to foresee how badly the Remain campaign would go over with the public? And does it not follow to assume that, if their reading of the public mood was so bad on the EU, they would have similarly terrible misreadings of the public mood on all sorts of other issues if they took control of the party?Monty said:
Yet to be determined what a modern Labour Party would offer post-Brexit. We should find out soon one way or another. Either Corbyn goes or Labour splits. Also hard to know what the Tories will look like.Danny565 said:
But they also don't want a party to follow the main planks of the Remain Campaign, as shown by the result of the referendum -- yet, as far as I can tell, that is what the Labour "moderates" would offer.Monty said:The country wants a reasonable alternative to Conservatives. Labour's problem in a nutshell.
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If the existing membership have turned against Corbyn, then why do the "moderates" apparently not think they could beat him if he was on the ballot?Wulfrun_Phil said:
"The PLP trying to rig leadership elections and to split the party for their own egos". Your perspective, not mine. I think that Neil Kinnock had a better take on it, as has Keiran Pedley above.Danny565 said:
Corbyn voters are by no means limited to just the "post GE intake". And Labour members who are Corbyn-sceptic, but who will nonetheless be outraged at the PLP trying to rig leadership elections and to split the party for their own egos, will go even deeper into the long-term membership base.Wulfrun_Phil said:
The ground troops won't by and large be affected, since very few of the post GE intake care for proper campaigning with the public at large as opposed to resolutionary socialism and groupthink on social media. Nor will it be the end of the world even if the income from memberships is halved and thus falls back to the levels that allowed the party to sustain the 2015 general election campaign. As for the income from the £3 "supporters"......Danny565 said:
So they WANT to lose more than half the membership??kle4 said:I suppose the thinking behind keeping Corbyn off the ballot is it might cause an exodus of lefty members (presuming the non far lefties who also voted for him are more prepared to stick around), rather than force the MPs to potentially have to leave if they challenge him and fail (given their actions have gone far beyond usual challenges)?
Where exactly do they think their ground troops and money is going to come from?
Many of the existing membership who voted for Corbyn have turned against him. But, more importantly, look at the polls and you'll see that there are all too few "Corbyn voters" amongst the wider public. Most electors think Corbyn should go and are yearning for an effective parliamentary opposition with a new leader.
And there aren't that many Corbyn voters among the wider public, but in my view there would be even fewer Eagle voters in the public (or voters for any of the Labour "moderates"). To prove that, we just have to look at Corbyn's May local elections result (a win over the Tories, albeit an unspectacular win) as opposed to the Remain Campaign (a DEFEAT despite far more institutional advantages).0 -
Leadsom has said quite clearly she wants no freedom of movement which means no single market, May has said she wants freedom of movement, just more controlled freedom of movementfelix said:
Agreed - I actually expect we will either way to be honest - unless Leadsom is determined to trash the UK economy completely.HYUFD said:
If May gets in we will join EFTA and the EFTA Norwegians were the most pro UK in the pollingfelix said:
Did you see the latest polling among EU countries? Or don't you want to look when it doesn't fit your silly narrative.SeanT said:
I have me doots.surbiton said:
As they will be soon.HYUFD said:
Given England has fought more wars against France than any other nation on earth, closely followed by Scotland, that is not that surprising, especially considering from the Jacobite rebellion back the Scots and French were often on the same sidemalcolmg said:
Our old friends the French for meTheScreamingEagles said:I trust all true English people are cheering for our oldest ally, Portugal, against the French.
The way the EU is responding to Brexit - more integration, hegemonic Franco-German alliance, forced euro membership - makes rejoining the EU look increasingly unpalatable by the day.
Will Scotland really divorce from England to become a tiny colony of Brussels? Really??
Hm. Or will they look at that famous arc of prosperity, including Iceland and Norway, and note that it is in EFTA, not the EU? Just like England?0 -
Anyone who does not limit the extent of options to their Shadow ministerial team to around 50 MPs would do better. Trying to argue that it doesn't matter if Corbyn is shite, everyone else would be shiter is just defeatism. Would you use the same argument if he emerged from the next election with 130 MPs and tried to carry on?Danny565 said:
Stalking horse for who? Which specific candidate would perform better in a general election than Corbyn would?Monty said:
Eagle is obviously a stalking horse. Surely, you can see that?surbiton said:
And, the person who will beat the Tories is a wet lettuce ? You must be joking !Monty said:
Because they are entirely different electorates. The sea of hard-left entryists and £3 Tory idiots (step forward several PB posters) will re-elect Corbyn as they have no interest in Labour winning elections. The country wants a reasonable alternative to Conservatives. Labour's problem in a nutshell.Danny565 said:Regardless of what technicalities can be found for Corbyn to be kept off the ballot, the bottom line is:
If Angela Eagle (or any other "moderate") thinks she can't even beat CORBYN in an election, how the hell is she going to have a chance against a far more formidable opponent in the Tories at the next General Election??
"Corbyn is not doing well" is not the same thing as "there is someone else available who would do better than Corbyn".0
