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Sarah Hewson @skynewssarah 1m1 minute ago
Chilcot: military action in Iraq might have been necessary at some point but in March 2003 there was no imminent threat.0 -
If you are bored of what Chilcott is saying now I don't think there is any format which is going to hold your attention.Sandpit said:david_herdson said:
If he were to read the entire report for 8 hours a day, 7 days a week, at 120 wpm, he finish around August 22.PlatoSaid said:Do we have any idea how long Chilcot is speaking for? I fear an Oscar Pistorius summing up...
Is there not a 100,000 word executive summary we can read somewhere, that might take only a few days?0 -
In some ways i would like the selection to end with her getting 200+ MPs and the 2nd candidate saying "I have insufficient MP support". An honourable position to take which most members would understand in the light of Corbyn. Mrs May can then get on and show us if she really is as good as all the "great and the good" say she is...... May be she really was being held back by Cameron and Osborne's deficiencies as I have suspected in the area of border resources? We will soon see.malcolmg said:
In her only senior job at HO , in six years she has done or achieved ZERO. A faceless administrator , how low has the UK sunk that the sum talent is this.SimonStClare said:
Exactly, those that actually have a say in the leadership contest, be they MPs or Members will be following the stories avidly. – It may change some voting intention, but not many IMO, they’ve already decided.Cyclefree said:
It's not the public who matter at this point but Tory MPs and I expect they are well aware or will be made so.Philip_Thompson said:
I'm not seeing anything about Leadsom's CV on the BBC News page, even on the BBC New Politics page it doesn't feature. It's wall to wall Chilcott.Pauly said:The fieldwork was pre-CVgate too. Just crown May now, as much as the members should have a say it's a foregone conclusion and we need certainty & to get out asap.
So will it have that big an impact?
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yes 250K minimum dead and ME in total turmoil all on the whim of Bush and Blair just so US could get hold of the oil, great job right enough. Our lapdog status is special.Philip_Thompson said:
No. It was the right thing to do, Saddam was an evil vile dictator who deserved to be removed. It was also the right thing to do to honour our alliance with our most valued partners.rogerh said:Just a reminder of how the parties voted on the motion to go to war against Iraq.
% in favour of going to war. Con 98%,Lab,75%,LD 0%.
if the 146 votes from the Tories had gone against war the total figures would have been for war 266 against 295.
not only were the Tories the strongest supporters of war but their leader IDS wanted us to go to war even if there was no support from the UN.
need I say more
Shame Blair's case wasn't either of these issues and what unravelled was his lies as well as the disastrous lack of operational planning for the post-war period neither of which the Opposition is responsible for.0 -
Well quite.not_on_fire said:
"I backed Brexit based on the supposed evidence. I've regretted it ever since - it effed up the UK, effed up Europe and destroyed trust in the Conservative party over the economy."PlatoSaid said:
I backed Iraq War v1 based on the supposed evidence. I've regretted it ever since - it effed up Iraq, effed up the West and destroyed trust in HMG over military action.TwistedFireStopper said:
I can understand that, but there are plenty of vile dictators that we do feck all about.Philip_Thompson said:
No. It was the right thing to do, Saddam was an evil vile dictator who deserved to be removed. It was also the right thing to do to honour our alliance with our most valued partners.rogerh said:Just a reminder of how the parties voted on the motion to go to war against Iraq.
% in favour of going to war. Con 98%,Lab,75%,LD 0%.
if the 146 votes from the Tories had gone against war the total figures would have been for war 266 against 295.
not only were the Tories the strongest supporters of war but their leader IDS wanted us to go to war even if there was no support from the UN.
need I say more
Shame Blair's case wasn't either of these issues and what unravelled was his lies as well as the disastrous lack of operational planning for the post-war period neither of which the Opposition is responsible for.
What a colossal mistake - based on a lie.
And that "evidence" being, of course, the exact opposite of what every reputable, sensible, qualified group or individual had advised.0 -
They have to pretend their is actually some talent among the donkeys standing for PM.Indigo said:Why are remainers trying to sell May so hard on these forums anyway, there is probably about 10 posters that actually get a vote, and they are probably all Tory activists anyway.
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I'm in favour of a GE when appointing a new PM - however, given the turbulence post-Brexit, I must put aside my high ideals.HurstLlama said:
Beats me, old chap, especially since many of those now pushing MAY would without the referendum have been slagging her off as an authoritarian unfit for office.Indigo said:Why are remainers trying to sell May so hard on these forums anyway, there is probably about 10 posters that actually get a vote, and they are probably all Tory activists anyway.
On a broader note, our next prime minister will be elected by the votes of about 150,000 people. The vast majority of the electorate will have no say at all but will have to abide by the result. I really don't think that in the 21st century that is good enough.
I would like the system changed. Ideally I would like to see a directly elected PM who could then appoint to his/her cabinet any one he/she wants, whether an MP or not and the whole pack of them would then be held to account by Parliament. At the very least a PM taking over mid-term should be required to call a GE.
I'd be happy with one brought in earlier than 2020 if we've concluded the EU negotiations.0 -
Enough of bland Tory leader elections. We're witnessing true political theatre. It's going to be crazy. Stop The War will probably march on Blair's residence!0
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If this is a Whitewash....I'd like to see what Chilcott would do if he tried to be critical.
If I was Tony Blair, I might look for a one way ticket to Argentina.
Chilcott has just destroyed him. He had Blair in his sights all the way through.0 -
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I agree. If Saddam was an evil vile dictator, it should have been perfectly possible to have constructed a much better basis for the war. Also 90% of the failings identified by Chilcot appear to be unrelated, i.e. that having made the decision o go to war we failed to do X Y or Z.Philip_Thompson said:
No. It was the right thing to do, Saddam was an evil vile dictator who deserved to be removed. It was also the right thing to do to honour our alliance with our most valued partners.
Shame Blair's case wasn't either of these issues and what unravelled was his lies as well as the disastrous lack of operational planning for the post-war period neither of which the Opposition is responsible for.0 -
Norman Smith, BBC: "absolutely excoriating"0
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Exaggerating and falsely claiming credit are stocks in trade for politicians. Lying is a No No.Charles said:
How aboutTOPPING said:
I think trying to explain to the public the nuances of the difference between Senior Investment Officer and Chief Investment Officer might take long enough a) for them to lose interest, it is an investment officer, after all, right?*; and b) for her to have won the ballot.Cyclefree said:
What she did and what she said about it matter for two reasons:-RobC said:I'm actually much less interested in the precise nature of what Andrea Leadsom did in her past career than in how well she performed those roles whatever they were. Her performances on Newsnight etc and in the first EU debate were fairly creditable even though I strongly disagreed with her but to be frank I'd just be happy if she keeps the dangerous Gove off the Tory members ballot paper for the reasons Ken Clarke perfectly enunciated yesterday.
I have however discovered my sister in law went to the same grammar school and was in the same year as Leadsom. Unfortunately I can't add to the sum of public knowledge as she can only remember her as being a quiet girl.
1. She is claiming - or allowing her supporters to claim - that her vast City experience ("managing funds and large teams") is one reason why despite her very limited political experience she is fit to be PM at this critical time. So the nature of what she did matters to see if it really does give her the sort of experience that would be worth considering. And bear in mind that successful business people don't necessarily make successful politicians (cf: Archie Norman).
2. If what she said about herself is untrue / exxaggerated / a lie (take your pick depending on how charitable you feel) then that raises serious questions about her probity and judgment, both key qualities I would have thought for a potential PM.
Being able to string a few coherent sentences together in a debate or TV interview is a pretty low bar frankly.
I am with @Stark_Dawning on this. She is the anti-candidate. Anti-candidates are doing quite well atm.
*And yes I do know the difference and the egregious nature of her miswriting. But then we are a rarefied bunch on PB.
"She's got a track record all right... a track record of lying, exaggerating her experience and claiming credit for other people's achievements"
[although you could say that about most politicians!)0 -
No wonder Cameron and Osborne tried to shelve this report until after the referendum...0
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Frankly a neutral outcome of six years at the Home Office is a good result. Most of her predecessors met disaster pretty quickly.TCPoliticalBetting said:
In some ways i would like the selection to end with her getting 200+ MPs and the 2nd candidate saying "I have insufficient MP support". An honourable position to take which most members would understand in the light of Corbyn. Mrs May can then get on and show us if she really is as good as all the "great and the good" say she is...... May be she really was being held back by Cameron and Osborne's deficiencies as I have suspected in the area of border resources? We will soon see.malcolmg said:
In her only senior job at HO , in six years she has done or achieved ZERO. A faceless administrator , how low has the UK sunk that the sum talent is this.SimonStClare said:
Exactly, those that actually have a say in the leadership contest, be they MPs or Members will be following the stories avidly. – It may change some voting intention, but not many IMO, they’ve already decided.Cyclefree said:
It's not the public who matter at this point but Tory MPs and I expect they are well aware or will be made so.Philip_Thompson said:
I'm not seeing anything about Leadsom's CV on the BBC News page, even on the BBC New Politics page it doesn't feature. It's wall to wall Chilcott.Pauly said:The fieldwork was pre-CVgate too. Just crown May now, as much as the members should have a say it's a foregone conclusion and we need certainty & to get out asap.
So will it have that big an impact?0 -
I was on my way to the Hong Kong Derby as the news came out. Together with a friend who had been hired by Barings the previous week..Cyclefree said:
Those doing the actual work were those on the ground in Singapore who were being asked by their various banks to look at the books to see if Barings could be rescued. One of those - a former colleague of mine - did just that and reported back that they were such a mess that no-one could have a clue what they were taking on. Far too great a risk. And that became evident pretty quickly hence the BoE's actions.IanB2 said:
I suspect those meetings were the BofE telling and the banks listening. Whoever the bank sent along was just there to take notes and report back.David_Evershed said:
The Guardian doesn't have the best contacts in Banking.Chris said:
Perhaps some scepticism is called for regarding the Barclays section of her CV as well as the other sections:David_Evershed said:Leadsom seems to have been head of the the team dealing with Barclays financial service customers in the 1990's. As a standalone business it would make it into the FTSE 250.
"The Guardian contacted several senior City sources who worked at BZW and Barclays at the same time as Leadsom, but could find none who could recall her spell at the bank, which concluded 19 years ago."
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/04/andrea-leadsoms-the-city-high-profile-roles-under-radar-barclays-brexit-negotiations
Leadsom says when Barings collapsed because of the Nick Leeson fraud, it was one of her customers and consequently she attended emergency meeting(s) with Eddie George, Governor of the BofE. Surely not a claim to make if not true.0 -
Blimey, I agree with Tyson!tyson said:If this is a Whitewash....I'd like to see what Chilcott would do if he tried to be critical.
If I was Tony Blair, I might look for a one way ticket to Argentina.
Chilcott has just destroyed him. He had Blair in his sights all the way through.0 -
This is to Blair what the Hillsborough inquest was to the South Yorkshire Police.0
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Tony committed to war 8 months beforehand - and retrospectively built a case for it.
Fcuk me.0 -
The fact is if you are a Tory member whose only citerion is a Leaver PM whether Gove or Leadsom is on the ballot paper matters not a jot. Those who think May will cruise to an easier win over Gove than Leadsom are badly underestimating Gove. The evidence so far is that Leadsom will unravel while Gove will recover especially if it is continually put out there Boris was completely unsuitable PM material (reinforced by recent comments from Portillo, Ken Clarke and others).0
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In years to come we will wonder at the amount of things that have happened in the last fortnight. Is this the most eventful period in British politics ever?0
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Revenge of the mandarins.0
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Re CV padding.
When I was at Goldman in the late 1990s, we were very surprised one day to find that one of the other juniors (a so-called Financial Analyst) was not at her desk. She was bright, hard working, and had gone from temporary secretary to full-time secretary, to financial analyst, and I have no doubt would have gone on to be a senior analyst.
She was fired because on her CV, she'd claimed a 2:1, when she actually had a 2:2.
They had an absolute zero tolerance policy towards lies on the CV.0 -
This is explosive. Blair is finished.0
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Perhaps Jeremy Corbyn will go quietly after all, once he's led Labour's response to the Chilcot report. Like General Wolfe, he can then die in peace.0
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I suspect that history will utterly crucify the 1997-2010 government. The 'centrists'.
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This woman, Emma Sky, who ran Kirkuk, almost by mistake. That for me is the amazing bit.
No plans whatsoever.
Well of course we all know that but to hear it (again) so damningly.0 -
Really?FrankBooth said:Revenge of the mandarins.
Sam Coates Times Verified account @SamCoatesTimes
Chilcot - So damning it's hard to know where to start, but shows UK government is capable of epic joined up failure just when needed most0 -
Erm..Richard_Nabavi said:Against this, the naysayers blame her for not reducing net immigration. But no-one ever says what she is supposed to have done or not done in this respect.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/6961675/David-Cameron-net-immigration-will-be-capped-at-tens-of-thousands.html
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Worth the wait from Chilcot. Underneath the courteous diplomatic language, it screams that Blair was extraordinarily reckless in going to war.
This country has a record it can be immensely proud of in responding to war being declared against it. But after Blair, we now have a wretched reputation for declaring war, and our conduct of such war and the following peace.0 -
There are 27 member states plus the European Parliament, and potentially the EEA countries as well. It doesn't matter when you have the negotiation, *somebody* is going to be having elections. Britain's just lucky the Lisbon Treaty got passed. Without QMV it would be near-on impossible.JonathanD said:
Badly, I'd guess. Easy points to be scored by threatening to veto negotiations. Better to delay notification of Article 50 for as long as possible.anotherDave said:
The Economist makes the point that Germany, France, Holland and possibly Italy are going to be having domestic elections in 2017. Be interesting to see how that affects the UK-EU negotiation.John_M said:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/05/my-economic-plan-for-britain-after-brexit/
Javid has a plan. Good man. Any plan is better than no plan. Off to hobble around with the dogs. Play nicely
.
http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21701695-despite-claims-some-lawyers-act-parliament-not-needed-invoke-article-50-who0 -
The thread I'm writing for the weekend contains this lineAlastairMeeks said:In years to come we will wonder at the amount of things that have happened in the last fortnight. Is this the most eventful period in British politics ever?
'Such are the extraordinary political times we are living in, The Four Horseman of The Apocalypse could turn up outside The Palace of Westminster, and it would struggle to make page 10 of most newspapers'0 -
I doubt it, but Angela Eagle's attempts to dethrone him are probably finished. No Labour MP who voted for the Iraq War is ever going to get near to the leadership.AlastairMeeks said:Perhaps Jeremy Corbyn will go quietly after all, once he's led Labour's response to the Chilcot report. Like General Wolfe, he can then die in peace.
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Just to repeat what I noted yesterday re the Tory Leadership vote - if your membership has lapsed within the last three months - you are still eligible to vote under the 'grace period' if you renew now.
Contact your local CCP for help.0 -
There's no way any current Blairite MP, who voted for the war can beat Corbyn now, surely? If Corbyn plays his cards right (a long shot, I know) he could cement himself in place for years.0
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Wow! Reading Chilcot's statement, this really isn't the expected whitewash. Not at all.rottenborough said:0 -
The 2010 - 15 Gov't will be very well regarded compared to before and aft.0
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Yes, to help keep some trust in the establishment and Blair/Mandy/Campbell/Labour in particular.GIN1138 said:No wonder Cameron and Osborne tried to shelve this report until after the referendum...
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Christ on a bike. A near perfect Home Secretary.Richard_Nabavi said:Regarding Theresa May's record, this is what I posted a couple of days ago:
Her record at the Home Office is superb by any standard. Firstly, and most importantly, she has quietly and effectively handled the day-by-day terrorist threat. Secondly she has dealt very effectively with long-running sores such as Abu Qatada and the Calais camp - building up very good relations with her French counterpart and patiently working with them despite the fact that it was a sensitive issue in France. Thirdly crime has fallen, and she's managed the relationship with the police deftly at a time when spending cuts make that hard. And fourthly, she has simply avoid pratfalls in this most pratfall-ridden post.
Against this, the naysayers blame her for not reducing net immigration. But no-one ever says what she is supposed to have done or not done in this respect.0 -
Messi sentenced to 21 months for tax fraud0
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A blind man would have known the dossier was fake as were the assertions. No excuses they all have blood on their hands.TOPPING said:
Yes, you need.rogerh said:Just a reminder of how the parties voted on the motion to go to war against Iraq.
% in favour of going to war. Con 98%,Lab,75%,LD 0%.
if the 146 votes from the Tories had gone against war the total figures would have been for war 266 against 295.
not only were the Tories the strongest supporters of war but their leader IDS wanted us to go to war even if there was no support from the UN.
need I say more
Cons may or may not have been warmongers, but when the government tells the House that the UK is in mortal danger and that your enemy has WMD, your only option is to vote for war.
With no access to the intelligence, consider for a moment (if you are the type so to do) what the response would have been if, having been so warned, the Cons voted against war.
Was it true? Well there's a question..0 -
Peter Oborne in his book appears to claim - from a programme I watched - that Bliar is not a war criminal but is guilty of criminal negligence. As I'm not a lawyer, does that mean that he can be tried for manslaughter but not for war crimes?GIN1138 said:
Indeed. They can't pass judgement on legality but based on what they are saying it can only be a matter of time before someone tries to bring a case, IMO.rottenborough said:
I think Chilcot's means that the process for deciding whether legal or not was unsatisfactory. He specifically said the inquiry did not make a decision on legal or not, only a court at international level could actually decide.GIN1138 said:Key Chilcot finding:
"Decision on legal basis for war unsatisfactory"
Can only be a matter of time before someone tries to get Blair indited to The Hague?
Either carries a prison sentence that would keep him inside well into his retirement years.0 -
Lying about qualifications is utterly insane. I guess that the requirement to be a Financial Analyst was a 2.1 and therefore this was very clear cut - job requirements are X you don't have those requirements.rcs1000 said:Re CV padding.
When I was at Goldman in the late 1990s, we were very surprised one day to find that one of the other juniors (a so-called Financial Analyst) was not at her desk. She was bright, hard working, and had gone from temporary secretary to full-time secretary, to financial analyst, and I have no doubt would have gone on to be a senior analyst.
She was fired because on her CV, she'd claimed a 2:1, when she actually had a 2:2.
They had an absolute zero tolerance policy towards lies on the CV.0 -
what, actually in prison?!DaemonBarber said:Messi sentenced to 21 months for tax fraud
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Here's a handy summary.
https://twitter.com/BBCBreaking/status/750641724754657281
If any question why we died
Tell them, because our fathers lied.0 -
Had to switch from the BBC News channel. Can't stand the protestor constantly shouting in a very piercing voice in the background.0
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And yet, Blair's leading us to war on a false prospects has already been a critical element in the public failing to believe the word of the Establishment, that saw its pinnacle in Brexit. Delaying this report may have only reduced the vote to Leave.GIN1138 said:No wonder Cameron and Osborne tried to shelve this report until after the referendum...
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The coppers would probably just shrug, and say " Alright lads? Just get in the queue behind Godzilla and that huge alien mothership, would you? Mind that huge asteroid about to come in."TheScreamingEagles said:
The thread I'm writing for the weekend contains this lineAlastairMeeks said:In years to come we will wonder at the amount of things that have happened in the last fortnight. Is this the most eventful period in British politics ever?
'Such are the extraordinary political times we are living in, The Four Horseman of The Apocalypse could turn up outside The Palace of Westminster, and it would struggle to make page 10 of most newspapers'0 -
I don't agree- the MP's were fundamentally misled by Blair, as much as the Tories who voted pro. Blair didn't even consult his cabinet so how can we blame the MP's. Vote war MP's would be wise to put the boot in on Blair and ask for a legal view on a prosecution. He deserves it.SouthamObserver said:
I doubt it, but Angela Eagle's attempts to dethrone him are probably finished. No Labour MP who voted for the Iraq War is ever going to get near to the leadership.AlastairMeeks said:Perhaps Jeremy Corbyn will go quietly after all, once he's led Labour's response to the Chilcot report. Like General Wolfe, he can then die in peace.
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Has Chilcott not just killed Andrea? This must be the worst day ever for claiming that the harmless fib is a legitimate concept in politics.0
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And now everything ends up as a HoC debate, rather than intelligence. What a mess.MarqueeMark said:Worth the wait from Chilcot. Underneath the courteous diplomatic language, it screams that Blair was extraordinarily reckless in going to war.
This country has a record it can be immensely proud of in responding to war being declared against it. But after Blair, we now have a wretched reputation for declaring war, and our conduct of such war and the following peace.
TBH, I want us to just butt out of all conflicts now, unless it directly effects our territories. Far too many well intentioned mistakes, poor planning and even poorer troop support.0 -
BBC Breaking News @BBCBreaking
Argentina and Barcelona footballer Lionel Messi sentenced to 21 months in prison for tax fraud, Spanish media say http://bbc.in/29lj1LX0 -
I agree with Southam. It'll be completely unfair, but that's life.tyson said:
I don't agree- the MP's were fundamentally misled by Blair, as much as the Tories who voted pro. Blair didn't even consult his cabinet so how can we blame the MP's. Vote war MP's would be wise to put the boot in on Blair and ask for a legal view on a prosecution. He deserves it.SouthamObserver said:
I doubt it, but Angela Eagle's attempts to dethrone him are probably finished. No Labour MP who voted for the Iraq War is ever going to get near to the leadership.AlastairMeeks said:Perhaps Jeremy Corbyn will go quietly after all, once he's led Labour's response to the Chilcot report. Like General Wolfe, he can then die in peace.
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It's been obvious for a couple of years that this report was going to be extraordinarily serious...Sandpit said:
Wow! Reading Chilcot's statement, this really isn't the expected whitewash. Not at all.rottenborough said:0 -
Just heard it on 5 live as an aside... but yes, actual jail timeTheWhiteRabbit said:
what, actually in prison?!DaemonBarber said:Messi sentenced to 21 months for tax fraud
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Bloody hell....that prison football team is going to be good.DaemonBarber said:
Just heard it on 5 live as an aside... but yes, actual jail timeTheWhiteRabbit said:
what, actually in prison?!DaemonBarber said:Messi sentenced to 21 months for tax fraud
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Imagine the prison footie team? It'd be like Escape to Victory!DaemonBarber said:
Just heard it on 5 live as an aside... but yes, actual jail timeTheWhiteRabbit said:
what, actually in prison?!DaemonBarber said:Messi sentenced to 21 months for tax fraud
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Very good point.SouthamObserver said:
I doubt it, but Angela Eagle's attempts to dethrone him are probably finished. No Labour MP who voted for the Iraq War is ever going to get near to the leadership.AlastairMeeks said:Perhaps Jeremy Corbyn will go quietly after all, once he's led Labour's response to the Chilcot report. Like General Wolfe, he can then die in peace.
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Ed Miliband didn't vote for the Iraq war, just saying.AlastairMeeks said:
Very good point.SouthamObserver said:
I doubt it, but Angela Eagle's attempts to dethrone him are probably finished. No Labour MP who voted for the Iraq War is ever going to get near to the leadership.AlastairMeeks said:Perhaps Jeremy Corbyn will go quietly after all, once he's led Labour's response to the Chilcot report. Like General Wolfe, he can then die in peace.
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Eagle's is done. How many current Labour MPs didn't vote in favour? A pretty small pool to fish in now.TwistedFireStopper said:There's no way any current Blairite MP, who voted for the war can beat Corbyn now, surely? If Corbyn plays his cards right (a long shot, I know) he could cement himself in place for years.
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If Corbyn went with his instincts and campaigned for Leave he could have said I was right on Iraq and right on the E.U.0
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Not like you to be so naive, Malcolm. Put yourself in the position of the Opposition.malcolmg said:
A blind man would have known the dossier was fake as were the assertions. No excuses they all have blood on their hands.TOPPING said:
Yes, you need.rogerh said:Just a reminder of how the parties voted on the motion to go to war against Iraq.
% in favour of going to war. Con 98%,Lab,75%,LD 0%.
if the 146 votes from the Tories had gone against war the total figures would have been for war 266 against 295.
not only were the Tories the strongest supporters of war but their leader IDS wanted us to go to war even if there was no support from the UN.
need I say more
Cons may or may not have been warmongers, but when the government tells the House that the UK is in mortal danger and that your enemy has WMD, your only option is to vote for war.
With no access to the intelligence, consider for a moment (if you are the type so to do) what the response would have been if, having been so warned, the Cons voted against war.
Was it true? Well there's a question..0 -
Good grief. This report is dynamite. And the Messi story is barely believable. They'll be telling us that Charlie Falconer has resigned next!0
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I'm disappointed by it - but politically I think we reached the point where people would not accept more austerity anyway, so the target was never going to be reached. Brexit has just made it easier for the government to claim it wasn't their fault they failed on the target.Jobabob said:
Yes. How many years of this did we have to endure on here? Presumably the brexiteers who once preached fiscal conservatism will immediately condemn it?SouthamObserver said:Turns out there is a magic money tree. Whoever would have thought it? This would be a gift to a credible, left of centre opposition.
https://twitter.com/pickardje/status/750576025625567232
It's been a couple of weeks - if we flourish, support for leaving may well rise in other places. If the chaos persists and worsens, then the current spike in support will be sustained.OllyT said:NickPalmer said:Danes go eeek! - support for EU membership in Denmark has jumped 10 points to 69%. Also rises in Sweden and Finland as people survey the British chaos.
Weren't they all supposed to be following us and rushing to the exit? Another Leave myth goes up in smoke.0 -
A lot of turnover since 2003. I'd suggest less than a quarter of the PLP of 2003 is still in he house.PlatoSaid said:
Eagle's is done. How many current Labour MPs didn't vote in favour? A pretty small pool to fish in now.TwistedFireStopper said:There's no way any current Blairite MP, who voted for the war can beat Corbyn now, surely? If Corbyn plays his cards right (a long shot, I know) he could cement himself in place for years.
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Same here there may have only been 200 of them but it was intolerable on the ears.Gravitation said:Had to switch from the BBC News channel. Can't stand the protestor constantly shouting in a very piercing voice in the background.
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The families press conference is so sad to watch, their body language and demeanour speaks volumes.
All their worst fears depressingly confirmed in black and white.0 -
Because we accept the will of the people?Brom said:
you've nailed it. She's somewhat draconian and because there is little doubt in my mind she will execute Brexit it beats me why certain remainers are so keen on her.TCPoliticalBetting said:
her three greatest achievements in 6 years at the Home Office?SandyRentool said:Can any Mayites offer up her three greatest achievements in 6 years at the Home Office?
Record net migration doesn't count!
1. Survived.
2. Upset the police.
3. Upset the Lib Dems
4. Upset civil libertarians
5. Extradited one man to Jordan
6. Blocked extradition of one man to USA.
And want a PM for the UK and a Leader for the Conservative Party, not a PM for BREXIT?0 -
Falconer currently on Daily Politics. The usual "lessons must be learned" line.Jobabob said:Good grief. This report is dynamite. And the Messi story is barely believable. They'll be telling us that Charlie Falconer has resigned next!
I'm expecting him to resign live on air.0 -
Yes. Fibber Leadsom is history. Oh, except that Ken Clarke's just told everyone that Gove is a warmonger. TM is PM.Ishmael_X said:Has Chilcott not just killed Andrea? This must be the worst day ever for claiming that the harmless fib is a legitimate concept in politics.
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Well, I read the Chilcot statement. In one sense it is of course dynamite, but, actually, is there anything we didn't know already? The only thing which mildly surprised me is that he seems to put a bit more emphasis on failures of the intelligence services (as opposed to the use to which Blair and Campbell put the intelligence reports) than I had expected.0
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Wonder how Gordon Brown feels at the moment? We wouldn't have had Chilcot without him.0
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I wouldn't at this stage - it's during the campaigning of the final two, if May is less than impressive and Leadsome shows more of the presentation skills I did not see at Wembly but people tell me were there for the other debate, then her anti-candidate and true leaver status could see her sweep up support.MaxPB said:
Again, we're not talking about the public, we're talking about 150,000 political types.TOPPING said:
I think trying to explain to the public the nuances of the difference between Senior Investment Officer and Chief Investment Officer might take long enough a) for them to lose interest, it is an investment officer, after all, right?*; and b) for her to have won the ballot.Cyclefree said:
What she did and what she said about it matter for two reasons:-RobC said:I'm actually much less interested in the precise nature of what Andrea Leadsom did in her past career than in how well she performed those roles whatever they were. Her performances on Newsnight etc and in the first EU debate were fairly creditable even though I strongly disagreed with her but to be frank I'd just be happy if she keeps the dangerous Gove off the Tory members ballot paper for the reasons Ken Clarke perfectly enunciated yesterday.
I have however discovered my sister in law went to the same grammar school and was in the same year as Leadsom. Unfortunately I can't add to the sum of public knowledge as she can only remember her as being a quiet girl.
1. She is claiming - or allowing her supporters to claim - that her vast City experience ("managing funds and large teams") is one reason why despite her very limited political experience she is fit to be PM at this critical time. So the nature of what she did matters to see if it really does give her the sort of experience that would be worth considering. And bear in mind that successful business people don't necessarily make successful politicians (cf: Archie Norman).
2. If what she said about herself is untrue / exxaggerated / a lie (take your pick depending on how charitable you feel) then that raises serious questions about her probity and judgment, both key qualities I would have thought for a potential PM.
Being able to string a few coherent sentences together in a debate or TV interview is a pretty low bar frankly.
I am with @Stark_Dawning on this. She is the anti-candidate. Anti-candidates are doing quite well atm.
*And yes I do know the difference and the egregious nature of her miswriting. But then we are a rarefied bunch on PB.
I'm going to put my straw poll out again on Friday to see if there has been any movement towards Leadsom. I don't expect anything.
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They are not supposed to be sheep, did they not think to ask why he was keeping it all to himself.tyson said:
I don't agree- the MP's were fundamentally misled by Blair, as much as the Tories who voted pro. Blair didn't even consult his cabinet so how can we blame the MP's. Vote war MP's would be wise to put the boot in on Blair and ask for a legal view on a prosecution. He deserves it.SouthamObserver said:
I doubt it, but Angela Eagle's attempts to dethrone him are probably finished. No Labour MP who voted for the Iraq War is ever going to get near to the leadership.AlastairMeeks said:Perhaps Jeremy Corbyn will go quietly after all, once he's led Labour's response to the Chilcot report. Like General Wolfe, he can then die in peace.
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Nah, The Mean Machine - with Burt ReynoldsTwistedFireStopper said:
Imagine the prison footie team? It'd be like Escape to Victory!DaemonBarber said:
Just heard it on 5 live as an aside... but yes, actual jail timeTheWhiteRabbit said:
what, actually in prison?!DaemonBarber said:Messi senOr tenced to 21 months for tax fraud
I love that movie.0 -
TMIGIPM?DecrepitJohnL said:
Yes. Fibber Leadsom is history. Oh, except that Ken Clarke's just told everyone that Gove is a warmonger. TM is PM.Ishmael_X said:Has Chilcott not just killed Andrea? This must be the worst day ever for claiming that the harmless fib is a legitimate concept in politics.
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Have to say, reading the headlines from Chilcot is both satisfying and disappointing. It is most satisfying that it is not a whitewash and that the 'sexing up' of the intelligence to make the case for war stronger is rightly condemned in the clearest and most outright manner, as is the failure to ensure that there was an effective plan for the peace after the war.
However, it is disappointing that Chilcot did not resist the benefit of 20-20 hindsight to second guess other policy issues, particularly whether peaceful disarmament options were exhausted (from the frontline I can tell you that they did indeed seem pretty exhausted) and that 'containment' could be continued for some time longer (it was already well and truly falling apart with the Russians and French sending large trade delegations to Baghdad and wanting to find ways to get their debt paid, while the oil for food programme was being used to refill Saddam's government and personal coffers).
And don't get me started on the idea that 'containment' is even a policy - it is not. It is a holding pattern until you come up with a policy, and it comes with the massive civilian price of sanctions.0 -
Its no whitewash.Richard_Nabavi said:Well, I read the Chilcot statement. In one sense it is of course dynamite, but, actually, is there anything we didn't know already? The only thing which mildly surprised me is that he seems to put a bit more emphasis on failures of the intelligence services (as opposed to the use to which Blair and Campbell put the intelligence reports) than I had expected.
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Tony Blair is getting crucified by the families. There will be a clamour for some sort of retribution against him.0
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MTimT, given your background, I will be fascinated to hear your take on Chilcot once the detail in two and a half million words has been burrowed into somewhat.MTimT said:Have to say, reading the headlines from Chilcot is both satisfying and disappointing. It is most satisfying that it is not a whitewash and that the 'sexing up' of the intelligence to make the case for war stronger is rightly condemned in the clearest and most outright manner, as is the failure to ensure that there was an effective plan for the peace after the war.
However, it is disappointing that Chilcot did not resist the benefit of 20-20 hindsight to second guess other policy issues, particularly whether peaceful disarmament options were exhausted (from the frontline I can tell you that they did indeed seem pretty exhausted) and that 'containment' could be continued for some time longer (it was already well and truly falling apart with the Russians and French sending large trade delegations to Baghdad and wanting to find ways to get their debt paid, while the oil for food programme was being used to refill Saddam's government and personal coffers).
And don't get me started on the idea that 'containment' is even a policy - it is not. It is a holding pattern until you come up with a policy, and it comes with the massive civilian price of sanctions.0 -
Nor, would we have had the war itself, if he had resigned over the issue. It was difficult for him I think. He viewed it as not really the Chancellor's role to block Iraq, but maybe he should.FrankBooth said:Wonder how Gordon Brown feels at the moment? We wouldn't have had Chilcot without him.
Anyway, let's not forget Robin Cook, RIP. He resigned.0 -
I noticed that and, like you, was surprised.Richard_Nabavi said:Well, I read the Chilcot statement. In one sense it is of course dynamite, but, actually, is there anything we didn't know already? The only thing which mildly surprised me is that he seems to put a bit more emphasis on failures of the intelligence services (as opposed to the use to which Blair and Campbell put the intelligence reports) than I had expected.
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True.nunu said:
Its no whitewash.Richard_Nabavi said:Well, I read the Chilcot statement. In one sense it is of course dynamite, but, actually, is there anything we didn't know already? The only thing which mildly surprised me is that he seems to put a bit more emphasis on failures of the intelligence services (as opposed to the use to which Blair and Campbell put the intelligence reports) than I had expected.
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Topping , they were just scared to go against so took the easy option , it was painfully obvious that Blair and his sidekicks were lying toerags. For sure we have the most pathetic, cretinous, greedy , useless donkeys leading our country.TOPPING said:
Not like you to be so naive, Malcolm. Put yourself in the position of the Opposition.malcolmg said:
A blind man would have known the dossier was fake as were the assertions. No excuses they all have blood on their hands.TOPPING said:
Yes, you need.rogerh said:Just a reminder of how the parties voted on the motion to go to war against Iraq.
% in favour of going to war. Con 98%,Lab,75%,LD 0%.
if the 146 votes from the Tories had gone against war the total figures would have been for war 266 against 295.
not only were the Tories the strongest supporters of war but their leader IDS wanted us to go to war even if there was no support from the UN.
need I say more
Cons may or may not have been warmongers, but when the government tells the House that the UK is in mortal danger and that your enemy has WMD, your only option is to vote for war.
With no access to the intelligence, consider for a moment (if you are the type so to do) what the response would have been if, having been so warned, the Cons voted against war.
Was it true? Well there's a question..0 -
Ha!MarqueeMark said:
Falconer currently on Daily Politics. The usual "lessons must be learned" line.Jobabob said:Good grief. This report is dynamite. And the Messi story is barely believable. They'll be telling us that Charlie Falconer has resigned next!
I'm expecting him to resign live on air.
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"Near perfect", Richard?Richard_Nabavi said:Regarding Theresa May's record, this is what I posted a couple of days ago:
Her record at the Home Office is superb by any standard. Firstly, and most importantly, she has quietly and effectively handled the day-by-day terrorist threat. Secondly she has dealt very effectively with long-running sores such as Abu Qatada and the Calais camp - building up very good relations with her French counterpart and patiently working with them despite the fact that it was a sensitive issue in France. Thirdly crime has fallen, and she's managed the relationship with the police deftly at a time when spending cuts make that hard. And fourthly, she has simply avoid pratfalls in this most pratfall-ridden post.
Against this, the naysayers blame her for not reducing net immigration. But no-one ever says what she is supposed to have done or not done in this respect.0 -
That might have worked as an argument if so many Labour MPs had not voted against the war - including Corbyn.tyson said:
I don't agree- the MP's were fundamentally misled by Blair, as much as the Tories who voted pro. Blair didn't even consult his cabinet so how can we blame the MP's. Vote war MP's would be wise to put the boot in on Blair and ask for a legal view on a prosecution. He deserves it.SouthamObserver said:
I doubt it, but Angela Eagle's attempts to dethrone him are probably finished. No Labour MP who voted for the Iraq War is ever going to get near to the leadership.AlastairMeeks said:Perhaps Jeremy Corbyn will go quietly after all, once he's led Labour's response to the Chilcot report. Like General Wolfe, he can then die in peace.
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And Ken Clarke said May is a "difficult woman".DecrepitJohnL said:
Yes. Fibber Leadsom is history. Oh, except that Ken Clarke's just told everyone that Gove is a warmonger. TM is PM.Ishmael_X said:Has Chilcott not just killed Andrea? This must be the worst day ever for claiming that the harmless fib is a legitimate concept in politics.
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I'd love to read a thread article by you on this - your direct experience is invaluable insight.MTimT said:Have to say, reading the headlines from Chilcot is both satisfying and disappointing. It is most satisfying that it is not a whitewash and that the 'sexing up' of the intelligence to make the case for war stronger is rightly condemned in the clearest and most outright manner, as is the failure to ensure that there was an effective plan for the peace after the war.
However, it is disappointing that Chilcot did not resist the benefit of 20-20 hindsight to second guess other policy issues, particularly whether peaceful disarmament options were exhausted (from the frontline I can tell you that they did indeed seem pretty exhausted) and that 'containment' could be continued for some time longer (it was already well and truly falling apart with the Russians and French sending large trade delegations to Baghdad and wanting to find ways to get their debt paid, while the oil for food programme was being used to refill Saddam's government and personal coffers).
And don't get me started on the idea that 'containment' is even a policy - it is not. It is a holding pattern until you come up with a policy, and it comes with the massive civilian price of sanctions.0 -
He also said “I get on all right with her and she is good"David_Evershed said:
And Ken Clarke said May is a "difficult woman".DecrepitJohnL said:
Yes. Fibber Leadsom is history. Oh, except that Ken Clarke's just told everyone that Gove is a warmonger. TM is PM.Ishmael_X said:Has Chilcott not just killed Andrea? This must be the worst day ever for claiming that the harmless fib is a legitimate concept in politics.
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Sky ticker " Blair says he'll take full responsibility for any mistakes without exception or excuse"TwistedFireStopper said:Tony Blair is getting crucified by the families. There will be a clamour for some sort of retribution against him.
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Not the way it works in Span. He won't go to prison.tyson said:
Bloody hell....that prison football team is going to be good.DaemonBarber said:
Just heard it on 5 live as an aside... but yes, actual jail timeTheWhiteRabbit said:
what, actually in prison?!DaemonBarber said:Messi sentenced to 21 months for tax fraud
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"Near perfect", Richard?
Or we could listen to David Mellor, who says May avoided headlines by ducking every major issue out there.
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Corbyn trying to crack jokes at PMQs0
