I see the Remainers are still on Anger and Denial.
It could be worse, lads, you could be living in an EU country and waiting for the sword of Damocles to finally descend.
Nah. We were a sovereign nation then and are a sovereign nation now. Remainers never lacked confidence in our country, or our own primacy.
All we are doing is pointing out the bleedin' obvious that 89.757% of claims made by Brexiteers were and are sheer unadulterated bullshit. And illogical sheer unadulterated bullshit at that.
and yet it was more convinving than Remain it seems.
why was that ?
Look at Kelvin's view today.
Same here. When I went into the polling booth and I saw that option "Leave the EU.." it was a hugely powerful emotional pull. Just by ticking that little box I could indeed "take control", no more more of the same, I would be voting to make a difference.
Apart from very very few Brexiteers, however, I would hazard (on no evidence whatsoever) that the vast majority stopped at that. They didn't think further than that emotional, take control, f&ck you response. They were told that the EU controlled their lives, passed laws, were responsible for the ex-mining villages in Wales, etc. And thought they would stick it to The Man.
LOL. That is a classic of rewriting history. No Richard. Just for the record. They didn't offer anything of the sort.
In what way would this fabled 'Associate Membership' differ from what we had?
You tell me. You are the one saying it was offered to us.
- Full acess to the Single Market, including services and financial passporting - No need to adopt the Euro - Not liable for Eurozone bailouts - No need to join Schengen - Reduced membership fee - Explicit opt-out from ever-closer union. - Partial opt-outs on benefits for EU citizens - Various other opt-outs on social, justice and residency directives
That's undeniably not 'Full Membership'. I think it's pretty reasonable to call it Associate Membership.
So exactly what we had before then. Not associate membership at all. NO change from the situation we have been in since 1995.
Its no wonder you guys lost if that is the best you can come up with
Eh? Yes, if you like we already had 'Associate Membership', even before if was enhanced and codified in the renegotiation. That's my entire point.
Oh, and I didn't 'lose' because I wasn't on either side. But you lot who were on the Leave side failed to persuade me, for reasons which are now unfolding in real-time before our eyes.
LOL Keep telling yourself that Richard. No one believed you before and no one does now.
We've asked about Corbyn's position being untenable. How is it that Rosie Winterton is still in place. The coup was apparently run from within the whip's office, three-quarters of the Shadow Cabinet have left, virtually the entire PLP is in revolt and about to no confidence the leader: doesn't that undermine her position at all?
She might be the one organising it. Or have I been watching too much House of Cards
I'm not entirely sure you have. Either she's the most incompetent Chief Whip in history or she knew what was going on, and if she knew what was going on the she either chose to turn a blind eye or she did try to act but utterly failed.
According to the BBC, 57 Labour MPs from the 2015 intake have signed a letter saying Jeremy Corbyn should resign. Also, Labour has agreed to no confidence tonight and secret ballot tomorrow.
There will be a leadership election. Now question is more of timetable.
Which candidates for leader will the MPs nominate, I wonder.
I've just read Boris Johnson's manifesto from yesterday. He says after Brexit there will continue to be free trade and access to the EU single market. Then he says there will be a points-based immigration policy. Well you can't have both, because the single market equals the four freedoms. You simply cannot have both unless you change the EU's policy in a way that one single country that is about to leave the EU will not possibly be able to.
The European Commission is quite willing to offer free trade and access to the EU single market, to countries outside of the EU that would still retain control over their borders. They are trying their utmost to conclude such a deal with another trading partner at the moment. It's called TTIP. What Johnson is essentially seeking is something akin to that, but without all the extra add-ons sought by the US that have been a source of controversy within TTIP. In addition there's the fact that the EU and particularly the Germans need access to the UK single market much more than we need continued access to theirs, thanks to the UK trade deficit with the EU. So such a deal is perfectly possible, and the UK has a very strong negotiating hand to secure one.
I was convinced Boris would be a shoo-in, but now I'm having serious doubts. What with the way the whole Brexit lark is going, the Tories will want to put maximum distance between them and it as soon as possible. They'll try and blame it on UKIP and Labour's ineffectiveness as much as possible. Boris and Gove can just be jettisoned as aberrations.
What happens if a Remainian wins the Tory leadership contest?
Theresa May kept her head down, notionally remain, but took no part in hyperbole.
LOL Keep telling yourself that Richard. No one believed you before and no one does now.
Ah yes, the Brexiteer mindet. How could Richard Nabavi possibly know whether Richard Nabavi campaigned in the referendum? He's an expert in Richard Nabavi's affairs, for heaven's sake, so by definition he must be wrong.
I see the Remainers are still on Anger and Denial.
It could be worse, lads, you could be living in an EU country and waiting for the sword of Damocles to finally descend.
Nah. We were a sovereign nation then and are a sovereign nation now. Remainers never lacked confidence in our country, or our own primacy.
All we are doing is pointing out the bleedin' obvious that 89.757% of claims made by Brexiteers were and are sheer unadulterated bullshit. And illogical sheer unadulterated bullshit at that.
and yet it was more convinving than Remain it seems.
why was that ?
Look at Kelvin's view today.
Same here. When I went into the polling booth and I saw that option "Leave the EU.." it was a hugely powerful emotional pull. Just by ticking that little box I could indeed "take control", no more more of the same, I would be voting to make a difference.
Apart from very very few Brexiteers, however, I would hazard (on no evidence whatsoever) that the vast majority stopped at that. They didn't think further than that emotional, take control, f&ck you response. They were told that the EU controlled their lives, passed laws, were responsible for the ex-mining villages in Wales, etc. And thought they would stick it to The Man.
I haven't spoken to any Brexiters that would change their vote. Some voted with doubt sure but do you really think people voted with the Monday after in mind? I voted against my short term financial interests but I'm incredibly confident that 5 or 10 years down the line Britain will be stronger outside the EU. I think there will be plenty of remainers today looking at david Lammy's comments wishing they were not associated with the remain side of the argument.
According to the BBC, 57 Labour MPs from the 2015 intake have signed a letter saying Jeremy Corbyn should resign. Also, Labour has agreed to no confidence tonight and secret ballot tomorrow.
There will be a leadership election. Now question is more of timetable.
Which candidates for leader will the MPs nominate, I wonder.
The only extremely slim chance we have is the government never quite getting round to invoking Article 50. That needs things to g wrong very, very quickly and enough regrexiters concluding by pretending not to notice.
Fingers crossed for economic meltdown, eh?
The question was clear, the turnout was high, the margin was decisive. I've accepted the Referendum result without equivocation.
Lammy ranting on Sky: "Referendum needs 2/3rds majority. We can't have rule by the mob! I'll never vote for Brexit in the HoC"
But if the economic meltdown continues then there will be a lot of people, an awful lot, who would quite like parliament to overrule the people.
I presume we have all seen Kelvin MacKenzie's public expression of Bremorse in the Sun?
As I said yesterday, the markets will decide this, and right now the markets are going mental. A bigger loss than Lehmans. We have destabilised not only ourselves, but other countries, some of which were perilously close to chaos already.
I also suggested that we were entering a dynamic, chaotic state yesterday - that we had set off an entirely unpredictable chain reaction. And I was pooh-poohed by some.
Maybe the fiend Osborne was right and we have put a bomb under everything. Eeeesh.
In addition there's the fact that the EU and particularly the Germans need access to the UK single market much more than we need continued access to theirs, thanks to the UK trade deficit with the EU. So such a deal is perfectly possible, and the UK has a very strong negotiating hand to secure one.
I'm sorry, but exports to the UK are 3% of EU GDP against close to 10% for UK exports to the EU.
It would be just as disastrous for us to lose access to the EU as vice-versa.
I do have some suggestions on minimising the damage whilst fully respecting the letter and spirit of the referendum decision. I might submit a guest article on the subject.
Lammy ranting on Sky: "Referendum needs 2/3rds majority. We can't have rule by the mob! I'll never vote for Brexit in the HoC"
But if the economic meltdown continues then there will be a lot of people, an awful lot, who would quite like parliament to overrule the people.
I presume we have all seen Kelvin MacKenzie's public expression of Bremorse in the Sun?
As I said yesterday, the markets will decide this, and right now the markets are going mental. A bigger loss than Lehmans. We have destabilised not only ourselves, but other countries, some of which were perilously close to chaos already.
I also suggested that we were entering a dynamic, chaotic state yesterday - that we had set off an entirely unpredictable chain reaction. And I was pooh-poohed by some.
Maybe the fiend Osborne was right and we have put a bomb under everything. Eeeesh.
How do we unclusterfuck this?
Don't look at me - I voted Remain and Labour last year. My conscience is clear.
Jeremy Corbyn MP @jeremycorbyn 17h17 hours ago Those wanting to change Labour's leadership will have to stand in a democratic election in which I'll be a candidate
Can someone tell me why the splitters dont want to do this.
It can only be because they want to impose a new leader without members getting a say IMO
Lammy ranting on Sky: "Referendum needs 2/3rds majority. We can't have rule by the mob! I'll never vote for Brexit in the HoC"
But if the economic meltdown continues then there will be a lot of people, an awful lot, who would quite like parliament to overrule the people.
I presume we have all seen Kelvin MacKenzie's public expression of Bremorse in the Sun?
As I said yesterday, the markets will decide this, and right now the markets are going mental. A bigger loss than Lehmans. We have destabilised not only ourselves, but other countries, some of which were perilously close to chaos already.
I also suggested that we were entering a dynamic, chaotic state yesterday - that we had set off an entirely unpredictable chain reaction. And I was pooh-poohed by some.
Maybe the fiend Osborne was right and we have put a bomb under everything. Eeeesh.
How do we unclusterfuck this?
The Tories are in the perfect position to overrule it or indeed accept something which is near identical to EU membership in all but name. They don't need the armies of non-voters in depressed northern backwaters who delivered the Leave victory as some sort of national protest vote against globalisation and immigrants.
Any prime minister will need parliamentary approval to trigger article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty and initiate the UK’s exit from the European Union, according to a report by constitutional lawyers. [Guardian]
Yep, seen it - it's pure wish and a prayer stuff. See the Lisbon treaty Article50:
"1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements. 2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention "
That wish is conveyed by the state's representative at the European Council (ie the PM). States with more fixed written restrictions on constitutional alterations would put constraints via 1 above, but in the UK - nope.
Certainly Parliament could have fun refusing to repeal the EC act 1972 etc, but ultimately, if the EU says you're out, you're out.
O/T but can anyone please confirm what time the England football match is on tonight? I'm seeing conflicting information from usually reliable sources. Thanks.
Any prime minister will need parliamentary approval to trigger article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty and initiate the UK’s exit from the European Union, according to a report by constitutional lawyers. [Guardian]
Yep, seen it - it's pure wish and a prayer stuff. See the Lisbon treaty Article50:
"1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements. 2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention "
That wish is conveyed by the state's representative at the European Council (ie the PM). States with more fixed written restrictions on constitutional alterations would put constraints via 1 above, but in the UK - nope.
Certainly Parliament could have fun refusing to repeal the EC act 1972 etc, but ultimately, if the EU says you're out, you're out.
Jack of Kent has an excellent article about the legal process of invoking Article 50.
David Cameron is giving his Commons statement on the referendum.
He welcomes the new MP for Tooting, who has just been sworn in and advises her to keep her mobile phone on. She could be in the shadow cabinet by the end of the day, he jokes.
I've just read Boris Johnson's manifesto from yesterday. He says after Brexit there will continue to be free trade and access to the EU single market. Then he says there will be a points-based immigration policy. Well you can't have both, because the single market equals the four freedoms. You simply cannot have both unless you change the EU's policy in a way that one single country that is about to leave the EU will not possibly be able to.
The European Commission is quite willing to offer free trade and access to the EU single market, to countries outside of the EU that would still retain control over their borders. They are trying their utmost to conclude such a deal with another trading partner at the moment. It's called TTIP. What Johnson is essentially seeking is something akin to that, but without all the extra add-ons sought by the US that have been a source of controversy within TTIP. In addition there's the fact that the EU and particularly the Germans need access to the UK single market much more than we need continued access to theirs, thanks to the UK trade deficit with the EU. So such a deal is perfectly possible, and the UK has a very strong negotiating hand to secure one.
The UK doesn't have a single market. It has a market. The EU has a single market whereby many countries have come together to create a unified set of rules.
Anyone can sell to or buy from the EU market but the EU single market significantly reduces the regulatory and administrative burden for those within it.
Why am I explaining this as surely this is known. Apologies have I got the wrong end of the stick of your post.
I see the Remainers are still on Anger and Denial.
It could be worse, lads, you could be living in an EU country and waiting for the sword of Damocles to finally descend.
Nah. We were a sovereign nation then and are a sovereign nation now. Remainers never lacked confidence in our country, or our own primacy.
All we are doing is pointing out the bleedin' obvious that 89.757% of claims made by Brexiteers were and are sheer unadulterated bullshit. And illogical sheer unadulterated bullshit at that.
and yet it was more convincing than Remain it seems.
why was that ?
Because the Sun and the queen backed Leave? The last time the Sun backed a loser in a British GE or referendum was in 1974.
Mr. Borough, indeed, Parliament is sovereign and it would be entirely legal for the Commons to either vote against the referendum result or collectively decide to ignore it.
However, that would replace the current collection of crises with a new one.
Crisis consolidation, as it were.
Sounds to me like the right path to take. Not to ignore it but to say "Thanks for the advice, but on consideration we are deciding to instruct the government to keep Britain in the EU." The question is how to package it. They need some changed circumstance or other.
Perhaps someone could show Boris where his sword is?
I thought you were pro-Leave John? Have you now changed your view??
We actually need the markets to crash hard and fast. Maybe a bank to go under in the next few days. A national emergency is the only cover politicians have to reverse this decision. And there's a very small window where this would be acceptable.
Can any Leaver tell me how this particular circle is going to be squared?
There will be Controls on Immigration There will be an open border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland
Rights of residence != ability to cross border without your passport
Canadians do not require passports to enter the US, but they're not allowed to just cross the border and get a job in the nearest diner.
So we will check passports from Norther Ireland to the Mainland UK then?
I'm just trying to work out how we stop illegal immigrants coming from Dublin across the open border to NI and then onto the UK.
You know, how we Control Immigration.
Illegal immigrants - whether to the US or the UK - get tourist visas and then don't go home. "Securing the borders" has never done anything to stop illegal immigration.
I've just read Boris Johnson's manifesto from yesterday. He says after Brexit there will continue to be free trade and access to the EU single market. Then he says there will be a points-based immigration policy. Well you can't have both, because the single market equals the four freedoms. You simply cannot have both unless you change the EU's policy in a way that one single country that is about to leave the EU will not possibly be able to.
He also says British people will still be able to go and work in the EU, to live there, to study and buy homes there, and to settle down. No conditions mentioned. But Britain, he says, will operate a points-based immigration policy. So we get an irregular verb:
* foreigners come here as immigrants (dirty word) * British people go abroad to work, live, study, and settle down (friendly words)
What is he trying to do? Reform the EU and stay in? We know he has a personal plan and a big ego, but does he actually have a feasible aim here? Doesn't seem to me that he does. Isn't this likely to be realised by even the most diehard Leavites, if not in the re-election-hungry PCP then surely among the membership?
It's an obvious point, a bit like "the SNP doesn't know what currency they want" in 2014. What will Boris say when it's put to him?
If he teams up with Marine Le Pen and gets France on his side - which would require that she get into the Elysée next May, he might possibly have a chance. But would he do that?
Is there value in laying Boris at 2.22?
It is becoming increasingly clear that Boris does not want the UK to leave the EU.
I'm still 50-50 we'll stay in
If we do (and I hope that will still be the outcome), the betrayal needs to be totally owned by the Euro-headbangers so that our politics is never again held to ransom by them.
Agreed. Feeling a bit more optimistic today. Boris rowing back so fast I reckon we'll be back in by the weekend!
David Cameron is giving his Commons statement on the referendum.
He welcomes the new MP for Tooting, who has just been sworn in and advises her to keep her mobile phone on. She could be in the shadow cabinet by the end of the day, he jokes.
David Cameron is giving his Commons statement on the referendum.
He welcomes the new MP for Tooting, who has just been sworn in and advises her to keep her mobile phone on. She could be in the shadow cabinet by the end of the day, he jokes.
Lammy ranting on Sky: "Referendum needs 2/3rds majority. We can't have rule by the mob! I'll never vote for Brexit in the HoC"
But if the economic meltdown continues then there will be a lot of people, an awful lot, who would quite like parliament to overrule the people.
I presume we have all seen Kelvin MacKenzie's public expression of Bremorse in the Sun?
As I said yesterday, the markets will decide this, and right now the markets are going mental. A bigger loss than Lehmans. We have destabilised not only ourselves, but other countries, some of which were perilously close to chaos already.
I also suggested that we were entering a dynamic, chaotic state yesterday - that we had set off an entirely unpredictable chain reaction. And I was pooh-poohed by some.
Maybe the fiend Osborne was right and we have put a bomb under everything. Eeeesh.
How do we unclusterfuck this?
The Tories are in the perfect position to overrule it or indeed accept something which is near identical to EU membership in all but name. They don't need the armies of non-voters in depressed northern backwaters who delivered the Leave victory as some sort of national protest vote against globalisation and immigrants.
Lammy ranting on Sky: "Referendum needs 2/3rds majority. We can't have rule by the mob! I'll never vote for Brexit in the HoC"
But if the economic meltdown continues then there will be a lot of people, an awful lot, who would quite like parliament to overrule the people.
I presume we have all seen Kelvin MacKenzie's public expression of Bremorse in the Sun?
As I said yesterday, the markets will decide this, and right now the markets are going mental. A bigger loss than Lehmans. We have destabilised not only ourselves, but other countries, some of which were perilously close to chaos already.
I also suggested that we were entering a dynamic, chaotic state yesterday - that we had set off an entirely unpredictable chain reaction. And I was pooh-poohed by some.
Maybe the fiend Osborne was right and we have put a bomb under everything. Eeeesh.
How do we unclusterfuck this?
Sean, no offence and all that, but you utter, utter dick.
Who were or weren't you listening to before the vote, in between your amusing gin-soaked diatribes, that couldn't have pointed this out to you?
Can any Leaver tell me how this particular circle is going to be squared?
There will be Controls on Immigration There will be an open border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland
Rights of residence != ability to cross border without your passport
Canadians do not require passports to enter the US, but they're not allowed to just cross the border and get a job in the nearest diner.
So we will check passports from Norther Ireland to the Mainland UK then?
I'm just trying to work out how we stop illegal immigrants coming from Dublin across the open border to NI and then onto the UK.
You know, how we Control Immigration.
According to Chris Grayling, we do it via National Insurance numbers. To which Ken Clarke responded - why are we worried about all these borders when the secret to controlling immigration is national insurance numbers.
In addition there's the fact that the EU and particularly the Germans need access to the UK single market much more than we need continued access to theirs, thanks to the UK trade deficit with the EU. So such a deal is perfectly possible, and the UK has a very strong negotiating hand to secure one.
I'm sorry, but exports to the UK are 3% of EU GDP against close to 10% for UK exports to the EU.
It would be just as disastrous for us to lose access to the EU as vice-versa.
That's a false comparison. You could by the same token say that exports from the rest of the world to the UK are only (say) 1% of the ROW GDP compared to (say) close to 20% for UK exports to the ROW. That wouldn't mean that either country had any less interest in maintaining the volume of trade.
What matters is that you compare the gross amount in £s (or Euros if you must). And the figures are that for every £2 we export to the EU, they export £3 to us. That is the comparison that matters, and it is why the EU has much more of a stake in maintaining the present volume of trade with the UK than.vice versa.
Lammy ranting on Sky: "Referendum needs 2/3rds majority. We can't have rule by the mob! I'll never vote for Brexit in the HoC"
But if the economic meltdown continues then there will be a lot of people, an awful lot, who would quite like parliament to overrule the people.
I presume we have all seen Kelvin MacKenzie's public expression of Bremorse in the Sun?
As I said yesterday, the markets will decide this, and right now the markets are going mental. A bigger loss than Lehmans. We have destabilised not only ourselves, but other countries, some of which were perilously close to chaos already.
I also suggested that we were entering a dynamic, chaotic state yesterday - that we had set off an entirely unpredictable chain reaction. And I was pooh-poohed by some.
Maybe the fiend Osborne was right and we have put a bomb under everything. Eeeesh.
How do we unclusterfuck this?
You voted Out!
This uncertainty and turmoil, wholly predictable and indeed predicted, was the principal reason I backed Remain in the end, to the bemusement of some on here.
In addition there's the fact that the EU and particularly the Germans need access to the UK single market much more than we need continued access to theirs, thanks to the UK trade deficit with the EU. So such a deal is perfectly possible, and the UK has a very strong negotiating hand to secure one.
I'm sorry, but exports to the UK are 3% of EU GDP against close to 10% for UK exports to the EU.
It would be just as disastrous for us to lose access to the EU as vice-versa.
That's a false comparison. You could by the same token say that exports from the rest of the world to the UK are only (say) 1% of the ROW GDP compared to (say) close to 20% for UK exports to the ROW. That wouldn't mean that either country had any less interest in maintaining the volume of trade.
What matters is that you compare the gross amount in £s (or Euros if you must). And the figures are that for every £2 we export to the EU, they export £3 to us. That is the comparison that matters, and it is why the EU has much more of a stake in maintaining the present volume of trade with the UK than.vice versa.
No, proportions matter.
Think about it this way. There are two people, one earns £100,000/year, and the other £1m/year.
A sum of £10,000 is more important to the person earning £100,000/year. Indeed, it would be more important to him than £90,000 out of the mythical millionaire.
In any case, the EU will offer is tariff free movement of goods. That's a given. The real question is about our ability to offer financial services to the EU under the passporting scheme. If we cannot, it will be a very serious blow to the UK as a financial centre.
Why do some people find it difficult to differentiate between someone having a right to travel to the UK without a Visa, and having a right to work in the UK without a work permit?
90% of conversations and discussions on "free movement" fail to make this important distinction.
There's also a massive difference between being able to move freely to take up a job and being allowed to freely turn up and register as a part time self employed Big Issue seller claiming tax credits and housing benefit.
It is becoming increasingly clear that Boris does not want the UK to leave the EU.
He never did. It was a newspaper column that got out of hand.
He gambled everything on losing, and it turns out he has.
I dont think that I have ever agreed with Alistair Campbell but what he said yesterday was dead right, the Leave campaign wanted to lose 51-49. They knew all that they said was lies and were relying on not winning. They just wanted the result to be close enough to destabalise Cameron. Now they have won they are desperately trying to pull back on all their promises. meanwhile the markets act.
This place needs a couple of days out to cool down. Supposedly intelligent people are saying utterly ridiculous things.
Jeremy Corbyn MP @jeremycorbyn 17h17 hours ago Those wanting to change Labour's leadership will have to stand in a democratic election in which I'll be a candidate
Can someone tell me why the splitters dont want to do this.
It can only be because they want to impose a new leader without members getting a say IMO
Anyone?
Surely some of the splitter supporters on here must have a view?
'This' was coming anyway. Some here on PB (incl yours truly) have been warning of a totally unsustainable global financial structure for years. Brexit was a straw on a camel's back that was already beyond control. We may have been the immediate trigger but we did not build the pressure behind the dam alone. The US Federal Reserve and the useless EU are prime cuplrits, as is China's idiot communist party. We decided to live beyond our means and rely on debt to hide the difference for while. Pretend and extend. It's precisely why I've been a stuck record telling people to buy gold for so long. Gold is a direct way of buying into the 'politicians are fuckwits' market. Go long! But Brexit has now broken out and can't be put back in its box. Whatever the long term solution is it should involve central bankers and politicians relearning that fiat currency is not money. You abuse your currency and your debt markets at your peril. A return to fundamentals may not come at a good time.
Richard Burgon has been moved to a new position in the Labour top team: shadow City minister. He says he's "very happy to continue to support Jeremy Corbyn's leadership, to support Jeremy Corbyn and his ideas".
Jeremy Corbyn MP @jeremycorbyn 17h17 hours ago Those wanting to change Labour's leadership will have to stand in a democratic election in which I'll be a candidate
Can someone tell me why the splitters dont want to do this.
It can only be because they want to impose a new leader without members getting a say IMO
Anyone?
Surely some of the splitter supporters on here must have a view?
What's the point? He has had his chance. He's flunked it. Time for someone new.
Lammy ranting on Sky: "Referendum needs 2/3rds majority. We can't have rule by the mob! I'll never vote for Brexit in the HoC"
But if the economic meltdown continues then there will be a lot of people, an awful lot, who would quite like parliament to overrule the people.
I presume we have all seen Kelvin MacKenzie's public expression of Bremorse in the Sun?
As I said yesterday, the markets will decide this, and right now the markets are going mental. A bigger loss than Lehmans. We have destabilised not only ourselves, but other countries, some of which were perilously close to chaos already.
I also suggested that we were entering a dynamic, chaotic state yesterday - that we had set off an entirely unpredictable chain reaction. And I was pooh-poohed by some.
Maybe the fiend Osborne was right and we have put a bomb under everything. Eeeesh.
How do we unclusterfuck this?
You voted Out!
This uncertainty and turmoil, wholly predictable and indeed predicted, was the principal reason I backed Remain in the end, to the bemusement of some on here.
My conscience is at least clear.
I voted Leave and my conscience is also clear.
Sean is being a knob. You make your choices and you live with them. You don't go to pieces at the first sign of trouble.
Lammy ranting on Sky: "Referendum needs 2/3rds majority. We can't have rule by the mob! I'll never vote for Brexit in the HoC"
But if the economic meltdown continues then there will be a lot of people, an awful lot, who would quite like parliament to overrule the people.
I presume we have all seen Kelvin MacKenzie's public expression of Bremorse in the Sun?
As I said yesterday, the markets will decide this, and right now the markets are going mental. A bigger loss than Lehmans. We have destabilised not only ourselves, but other countries, some of which were perilously close to chaos already.
I also suggested that we were entering a dynamic, chaotic state yesterday - that we had set off an entirely unpredictable chain reaction. And I was pooh-poohed by some.
Maybe the fiend Osborne was right and we have put a bomb under everything. Eeeesh.
How do we unclusterfuck this?
You voted Out!
This uncertainty and turmoil, wholly predictable and indeed predicted, was the principal reason I backed Remain in the end, to the bemusement of some on here.
My conscience is at least clear.
Yep - the idea that the world's fifth (or is it sixth now?) largest economy could quietly exit a major single market in the early stages of recovery without anyone really noticing did seem a bit far-fetched to a few of us even before the referendum took place.
I've just read Boris Johnson's manifesto from yesterday. He says after Brexit there will continue to be free trade and access to the EU single market. Then he says there will be a points-based immigration policy. Well you can't have both, because the single market equals the four freedoms. You simply cannot have both unless you change the EU's policy in a way that one single country that is about to leave the EU will not possibly be able to.
The European Commission is quite willing to offer free trade and access to the EU single market, to countries outside of the EU that would still retain control over their borders. They are trying their utmost to conclude such a deal with another trading partner at the moment. It's called TTIP. What Johnson is essentially seeking is something akin to that, but without all the extra add-ons sought by the US that have been a source of controversy within TTIP. In addition there's the fact that the EU and particularly the Germans need access to the UK single market much more than we need continued access to theirs, thanks to the UK trade deficit with the EU. So such a deal is perfectly possible, and the UK has a very strong negotiating hand to secure one.
The UK doesn't have a single market. It has a market. The EU has a single market whereby many countries have come together to create a unified set of rules.
Anyone can sell to or buy from the EU market but the EU single market significantly reduces the regulatory and administrative burden for those within it.
Why am I explaining this as surely this is known. Apologies have I got the wrong end of the stick of your post.
Maybe I should have used inverted commas. My point was to emphasise that the UK has a "single market" just as much as the EU and in fact more so because the various parts of the UK have come together over a couple of millenia as an economic union and long ago got rid of the regulatory and administrative burden of selling goods over say the Mercian border into Wessex, so much so that we don't even bother to think of it as one. I think in all honesty we're splitting hairs over the use of language.
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Same here. When I went into the polling booth and I saw that option "Leave the EU.." it was a hugely powerful emotional pull. Just by ticking that little box I could indeed "take control", no more more of the same, I would be voting to make a difference.
Apart from very very few Brexiteers, however, I would hazard (on no evidence whatsoever) that the vast majority stopped at that. They didn't think further than that emotional, take control, f&ck you response. They were told that the EU controlled their lives, passed laws, were responsible for the ex-mining villages in Wales, etc. And thought they would stick it to The Man.
I'm just trying to work out how we stop illegal immigrants coming from Dublin across the open border to NI and then onto the UK.
You know, how we Control Immigration.
It would be just as disastrous for us to lose access to the EU as vice-versa.
I do have some suggestions on minimising the damage whilst fully respecting the letter and spirit of the referendum decision. I might submit a guest article on the subject.
The average stock price fall for the UK's publicly-quoted house builders is now 32%.
Those wanting to change Labour's leadership will have to stand in a democratic election in which I'll be a candidate
Can someone tell me why the splitters dont want to do this.
It can only be because they want to impose a new leader without members getting a say IMO
The Tories are in the perfect position to overrule it or indeed accept something which is near identical to EU membership in all but name. They don't need the armies of non-voters in depressed northern backwaters who delivered the Leave victory as some sort of national protest vote against globalisation and immigrants.
"1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.
2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention
"
That wish is conveyed by the state's representative at the European Council (ie the PM). States with more fixed written restrictions on constitutional alterations would put constraints via 1 above, but in the UK - nope.
Certainly Parliament could have fun refusing to repeal the EC act 1972 etc, but ultimately, if the EU says you're out, you're out.
Charlie Falconer said to be "mooting departure".
"I'd advise her to keep her phone on, she might be in the shadow cabinet by the end of the day....and I thought I was having a bad day"
Prime London property is going to get absolutely massacred.
He welcomes the new MP for Tooting, who has just been sworn in and advises her to keep her mobile phone on. She could be in the shadow cabinet by the end of the day, he jokes.
Anyone can sell to or buy from the EU market but the EU single market significantly reduces the regulatory and administrative burden for those within it.
Why am I explaining this as surely this is known. Apologies have I got the wrong end of the stick of your post.
Who were or weren't you listening to before the vote, in between your amusing gin-soaked diatribes, that couldn't have pointed this out to you?
And Jezza, Stick to your guns!
FTSE 250: Jun 2016: 15054
Braitors?
What matters is that you compare the gross amount in £s (or Euros if you must). And the figures are that for every £2 we export to the EU, they export £3 to us. That is the comparison that matters, and it is why the EU has much more of a stake in maintaining the present volume of trade with the UK than.vice versa.
We do appear to have entered, to save the village we had to destroy it, territory.
Only 6 moths months of paralysing depression, 10 years more like. I thought you Brexiters weren't supposed to be talking the country down!
This uncertainty and turmoil, wholly predictable and indeed predicted, was the principal reason I backed Remain in the end, to the bemusement of some on here.
My conscience is at least clear.
Think about it this way. There are two people, one earns £100,000/year, and the other £1m/year.
A sum of £10,000 is more important to the person earning £100,000/year. Indeed, it would be more important to him than £90,000 out of the mythical millionaire.
In any case, the EU will offer is tariff free movement of goods. That's a given. The real question is about our ability to offer financial services to the EU under the passporting scheme. If we cannot, it will be a very serious blow to the UK as a financial centre.
The ideal candidate would be a proven winner in London who can take the rest of the country with him in a big vote
Anyone spring to mind?
There's also a massive difference between being able to move freely to take up a job and being allowed to freely turn up and register as a part time self employed Big Issue seller claiming tax credits and housing benefit.
Surely some of the splitter supporters on here must have a view?
'This' was coming anyway. Some here on PB (incl yours truly) have been warning of a totally unsustainable global financial structure for years. Brexit was a straw on a camel's back that was already beyond control. We may have been the immediate trigger but we did not build the pressure behind the dam alone. The US Federal Reserve and the useless EU are prime cuplrits, as is China's idiot communist party. We decided to live beyond our means and rely on debt to hide the difference for while. Pretend and extend. It's precisely why I've been a stuck record telling people to buy gold for so long. Gold is a direct way of buying into the 'politicians are fuckwits' market. Go long! But Brexit has now broken out and can't be put back in its box. Whatever the long term solution is it should involve central bankers and politicians relearning that fiat currency is not money. You abuse your currency and your debt markets at your peril. A return to fundamentals may not come at a good time.
Sean is being a knob. You make your choices and you live with them. You don't go to pieces at the first sign of trouble.
Cheeky monkey