It's his right to vote against it. Parliament is sovereign.
He can vote against whatever he likes. It's not going to stop a PM hitting the Article 50 button - Parliament is utterly irrelevant there.
Not so fast:
Any prime minister will need parliamentary approval to trigger article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty and initiate the UK’s exit from the European Union, according to a report by constitutional lawyers. [Guardian]
Nah. He can do what he wants as long as he doesn't have parliamentary disapproval. Foreign Affairs have always been a crown prerogative as exercised by ministers. In fact, a minister could legally ignore a parliamentary vote as well as that'd also not be binding, although to do so would be inviting a vote of censure at least.
Corbyn in an implicit call for Cameron to invoke Article 50 tomorrow...
Not sure it should be tomorrow but I would like to see it done very soon. Delaying it just adds to uncertainty. It will also ensure the if it's calling for the decision to be reversed can't win.
Jeremy Corbyn MP @jeremycorbyn 17h17 hours ago Those wanting to change Labour's leadership will have to stand in a democratic election in which I'll be a candidate
Can someone tell me why the splitters dont want to do this.
It can only be because they want to impose a new leader without members getting a say IMO
Anyone?
Surely some of the splitter supporters on here must have a view?
Not a splitter, as I'm am a Tory, but I should have thought it was obvious.
The Membership will continue to elect a leader who will cost them their jobs because the Membership does not reflect the values of a significant chunk of traditional Labour voters without whom the party is unelectable save in urban socialist paradises. An alternative way has to be found to save the Labour movement (not party) from Jez and the current Membership.
Lammy ranting on Sky: "Referendum needs 2/3rds majority. We can't have rule by the mob! I'll never vote for Brexit in the HoC"
But if the economic meltdown continues then there will be a lot of people, an awful lot, who would quite like parliament to overrule the people.
I presume we have all seen Kelvin MacKenzie's public expression of Bremorse in the Sun?
As I said yesterday, the markets will decide this, and right now the markets are going mental. A bigger loss than Lehmans. We have destabilised not only ourselves, but other countries, some of which were perilously close to chaos already.
I also suggested that we were entering a dynamic, chaotic state yesterday - that we had set off an entirely unpredictable chain reaction. And I was pooh-poohed by some.
Maybe the fiend Osborne was right and we have put a bomb under everything. Eeeesh.
How do we unclusterfuck this?
You voted Out!
This uncertainty and turmoil, wholly predictable and indeed predicted, was the principal reason I backed Remain in the end, to the bemusement of some on here.
My conscience is at least clear.
I voted Leave and my conscience is also clear.
Sean is being a knob. You make your choices and you live with them. You don't go to pieces at the first sign of trouble.
Quite. I couldn't give a toss about the financial markets.
Stiff upper lip, man. The turmoil is worse in Europe. The old headline ... "Fog blankets channel. Europe cut off." is correct.
Hollande will cut and run, Merkel is making overtures (Mr Tyson, calm down), and the other countries are terrified of contagion. "Hard pounding this, gentlemen; let's see who will pound longest."
We actually need the markets to crash hard and fast. Maybe a bank to go under in the next few days. A national emergency is the only cover politicians have to reverse this decision. And there's a very small window where this would be acceptable.
Of course, if we did reverse now we do it without the concessions that Cameron secured. Those were cancelled once the referendum was lost.
Lammy ranting on Sky: "Referendum needs 2/3rds majority. We can't have rule by the mob! I'll never vote for Brexit in the HoC"
But if the economic meltdown continues then there will be a lot of people, an awful lot, who would quite like parliament to overrule the people.
I presume we have all seen Kelvin MacKenzie's public expression of Bremorse in the Sun?
As I said yesterday, the markets will decide this, and right now the markets are going mental. A bigger loss than Lehmans. We have destabilised not only ourselves, but other countries, some of which were perilously close to chaos already.
I also suggested that we were entering a dynamic, chaotic state yesterday - that we had set off an entirely unpredictable chain reaction. And I was pooh-poohed by some.
Maybe the fiend Osborne was right and we have put a bomb under everything. Eeeesh.
How do we unclusterfuck this?
You voted Out!
This uncertainty and turmoil, wholly predictable and indeed predicted, was the principal reason I backed Remain in the end, to the bemusement of some on here.
My conscience is at least clear.
I voted Leave and my conscience is also clear.
Sean is being a knob. You make your choices and you live with them. You don't go to pieces at the first sign of trouble.
Its been less than 2 working days, there is a whole lot of trouble and for what. Have we "taken back control" All we have done is muck everything up. Brilliant stuff!
@thom_brooks: This is what Brexit looks like. And it ain't pretty. Public thought they voted for "control", but getting recession. https://t.co/2c7Tx3XY1w
I've just read Boris Johnson's manifesto from yesterday. He says after Brexit there will continue to be free trade and access to the EU single market. Then he says there will be a points-based immigration policy. Well you can't have both, because the single market equals the four freedoms. You simply cannot have both unless you change the EU's policy in a way that one single country that is about to leave the EU will not possibly be able to.
The European Commission is quite willing to offer free trade and access to the EU single market, to countries outside of the EU that would still retain control over their borders. They are trying their utmost to conclude such a deal with another trading partner at the moment. It's called TTIP. What Johnson is essentially seeking is something akin to that, but without all the extra add-ons sought by the US that have been a source of controversy within TTIP. In addition there's the fact that the EU and particularly the Germans need access to the UK single market much more than we need continued access to theirs, thanks to the UK trade deficit with the EU. So such a deal is perfectly possible, and the UK has a very strong negotiating hand to secure one.
The possibility of some kind of TTIP Lite is a very interesting point, which I shall consider. But how could they allow access to the single market for British SMEs? The City of London when the referendum lay in the future was said to have been seeking a relaxation of banking rules in the US itself, but I wonder how much German support they could rely on if Article 50 is invoked. And what about Johnson's promise that British people will still be able to work, travel, study, buy homes and settle down in the EU?
Jeremy Corbyn MP @jeremycorbyn 17h17 hours ago Those wanting to change Labour's leadership will have to stand in a democratic election in which I'll be a candidate
Can someone tell me why the splitters dont want to do this.
It can only be because they want to impose a new leader without members getting a say IMO
Anyone?
Surely some of the splitter supporters on here must have a view?
Corbyn has been given plenty of time. He has utterly failed. If the party has to split and be led in parliament by someone vaguely competent, so be it
Lammy ranting on Sky: "Referendum needs 2/3rds majority. We can't have rule by the mob! I'll never vote for Brexit in the HoC"
But if the economic meltdown continues then there will be a lot of people, an awful lot, who would quite like parliament to overrule the people.
I presume we have all seen Kelvin MacKenzie's public expression of Bremorse in the Sun?
As I said yesterday, the markets will decide this, and right now the markets are going mental. A bigger loss than Lehmans. We have destabilised not only ourselves, but other countries, some of which were perilously close to chaos already.
I also suggested that we were entering a dynamic, chaotic state yesterday - that we had set off an entirely unpredictable chain reaction. And I was pooh-poohed by some.
Maybe the fiend Osborne was right and we have put a bomb under everything. Eeeesh.
How do we unclusterfuck this?
You voted Out!
This uncertainty and turmoil, wholly predictable and indeed predicted, was the principal reason I backed Remain in the end, to the bemusement of some on here.
My conscience is at least clear.
I voted Leave and my conscience is also clear.
Sean is being a knob. You make your choices and you live with them. You don't go to pieces at the first sign of trouble.
Quite. I couldn't give a toss about the financial markets.
I'm not going to pieces, but it would take a halfwit not to be worried by the potential for economic calamity - and the dissolution of the Union.
Only if someone had warned you about this before the referendum eh?
Lammy ranting on Sky: "Referendum needs 2/3rds majority. We can't have rule by the mob! I'll never vote for Brexit in the HoC"
But if the economic meltdown continues then there will be a lot of people, an awful lot, who would quite like parliament to overrule the people.
I presume we have all seen Kelvin MacKenzie's public expression of Bremorse in the Sun?
As I said yesterday, the markets will decide this, and right now the markets are going mental. A bigger loss than Lehmans. We have destabilised not only ourselves, but other countries, some of which were perilously close to chaos already.
I also suggested that we were entering a dynamic, chaotic state yesterday - that we had set off an entirely unpredictable chain reaction. And I was pooh-poohed by some.
Maybe the fiend Osborne was right and we have put a bomb under everything. Eeeesh.
How do we unclusterfuck this?
You voted Out!
This uncertainty and turmoil, wholly predictable and indeed predicted, was the principal reason I backed Remain in the end, to the bemusement of some on here.
My conscience is at least clear.
I voted Leave and my conscience is also clear.
Sean is being a knob. You make your choices and you live with them. You don't go to pieces at the first sign of trouble.
Quite. I couldn't give a toss about the financial markets.
An insight into the europhobe mentality. It doesn't matter how much value is wiped off the economy, how many pensions are wrecked, how many of people's hard earned assets are crushed in value or how many jobs are lost. As long as we leave the EU, that's a price worth paying.
Stiff upper lip, man. The turmoil is worse in Europe. The old headline ... "Fog blankets channel. Europe cut off." is correct.
Hollande will cut and run, Merkel is making overtures (Mr Tyson, calm down), and the other countries are terrified of contagion. "Hard pounding this, gentlemen; let's see who will pound longest."
Well as long as the turmoil is worse in Europe - our single biggest export market - then everything is just fine :-)
@alexmassie: Top argument for PM Boris? "He's only person who could get away with not invoking Article 50." An elegant point but not wholly persuasive.
@alexmassie: Requires people to embrace, rather than just accept, Boris as a charlatan. Might make politics impossible for a generation, too.
Just realised I backed Corbyn to go in Oct-Dec 2017 instead of Oct-Dec 2016.
No wonder the odds were decent...!
Hah - bit like when I left my lay in at 2.4 for Khan whilst I was on holiday during the Labour mayoral selection process finalising. Obviously would get matched if he won or not if he didn't.
Lammy ranting on Sky: "Referendum needs 2/3rds majority. We can't have rule by the mob! I'll never vote for Brexit in the HoC"
But if the economic meltdown continues then there will be a lot of people, an awful lot, who would quite like parliament to overrule the people.
I presume we have all seen Kelvin MacKenzie's public expression of Bremorse in the Sun?
As I said yesterday, the markets will decide this, and right now the markets are going mental. A bigger loss than Lehmans. We have destabilised not only ourselves, but other countries, some of which were perilously close to chaos already.
I also suggested that we were entering a dynamic, chaotic state yesterday - that we had set off an entirely unpredictable chain reaction. And I was pooh-poohed by some.
Maybe the fiend Osborne was right and we have put a bomb under everything. Eeeesh.
How do we unclusterfuck this?
You voted Out!
This uncertainty and turmoil, wholly predictable and indeed predicted, was the principal reason I backed Remain in the end, to the bemusement of some on here.
My conscience is at least clear.
I voted Leave and my conscience is also clear.
Sean is being a knob. You make your choices and you live with them. You don't go to pieces at the first sign of trouble.
Quite. I couldn't give a toss about the financial markets.
An insight into the europhobe mentality. It doesn't matter how much value is wiped off the economy, how many pensions are wrecked, how many of people's hard earned assets are crushed in value or how many jobs are lost. As long as we leave the EU, that's a price worth paying.
Markets overreact and panic. Then they settle down.
31 years ago the pound almost reached parity with the dollar. Two years later, it was back at 1.50. Life went on.
One feature of this site is the obsession that so many people have with short term financial movements. They shouldn't drive long term political decisions.
Jeremy Corbyn MP @jeremycorbyn 17h17 hours ago Those wanting to change Labour's leadership will have to stand in a democratic election in which I'll be a candidate
Can someone tell me why the splitters dont want to do this.
It can only be because they want to impose a new leader without members getting a say IMO
Anyone?
Surely some of the splitter supporters on here must have a view?
What's the point? He has had his chance. He's flunked it. Time for someone new.
Lammy ranting on Sky: "Referendum needs 2/3rds majority. We can't have rule by the mob! I'll never vote for Brexit in the HoC"
But if the economic meltdown continues then there will be a lot of people, an awful lot, who would quite like parliament to overrule the people.
I presume we have all seen Kelvin MacKenzie's public expression of Bremorse in the Sun?
As I said yesterday, the markets will decide this, and right now the markets are going mental. A bigger loss than Lehmans. We have destabilised not only ourselves, but other countries, some of which were perilously close to chaos already.
I also suggested that we were entering a dynamic, chaotic state yesterday - that we had set off an entirely unpredictable chain reaction. And I was pooh-poohed by some.
Maybe the fiend Osborne was right and we have put a bomb under everything. Eeeesh.
How do we unclusterfuck this?
Sean, no offence and all that, but you utter, utter dick.
Who were or weren't you listening to before the vote, in between your amusing gin-soaked diatribes, that couldn't have pointed this out to you?
There have been far worse examples of Champagne Populism on here over the last few weeks.
Lammy ranting on Sky: "Referendum needs 2/3rds majority. We can't have rule by the mob! I'll never vote for Brexit in the HoC"
But if the economic meltdown continues then there will be a lot of people, an awful lot, who would quite like parliament to overrule the people.
I presume we have all seen Kelvin MacKenzie's public expression of Bremorse in the Sun?
As I said yesterday, the markets will decide this, and right now the markets are going mental. A bigger loss than Lehmans. We have destabilised not only ourselves, but other countries, some of which were perilously close to chaos already.
I also suggested that we were entering a dynamic, chaotic state yesterday - that we had set off an entirely unpredictable chain reaction. And I was pooh-poohed by some.
Maybe the fiend Osborne was right and we have put a bomb under everything. Eeeesh.
How do we unclusterfuck this?
You voted Out!
This uncertainty and turmoil, wholly predictable and indeed predicted, was the principal reason I backed Remain in the end, to the bemusement of some on here.
My conscience is at least clear.
I voted Leave and my conscience is also clear.
Sean is being a knob. You make your choices and you live with them. You don't go to pieces at the first sign of trouble.
Quite. I couldn't give a toss about the financial markets.
An insight into the europhobe mentality. It doesn't matter how much value is wiped off the economy, how many pensions are wrecked, how many of people's hard earned assets are crushed in value or how many jobs are lost. As long as we leave the EU, that's a price worth paying.
Hey...but at least we've got our sovereignty back. Feels great doesn't it.
Corbyn in an implicit call for Cameron to invoke Article 50 tomorrow...
Not sure it should be tomorrow but I would like to see it done very soon. Delaying it just adds to uncertainty. It will also ensure the if it's calling for the decision to be reversed can't win.
Edit. By soon I mean within days.
Whilst I agree it should be sooner rather than later, 'within days' is not practicable IMO.
Firstly, there is obviously the political dimension - civil servants will need some political direction on what we are trying to achieve, and that can only come after we have the new PM in place. Equally, or even more, our ex-EU friends need to hold discussions on what political direction they will want to give. That will take time, but it can start now, there's absolutely no need for them to wait for the Article 50 trigger.
Secondly, simply in terms of the mechanics, both sides need time to get their negotiating teams in place and figure out how the process should work. Again that doesn't need formal notification.
A report indicated that up to 13,000 extra economic migrants could come to Britain each year as a direct result of 10 new countries joining the organisation.
The Conservatives have expressed fears that expanding the EU would result in large numbers of people from the former Communist countries looking for a more prosperous future in countries like the UK.
But Home Office Minister Beverley Hughes told MPs: "The number coming here for employment will be minimal."
If that had panned out as predicted, it is hard to see a path for a Leave victory - they certainly wouldn't have achieved such stonking results in places like Wisbech and Boston that were demographically transformed by the 2004 and 2007 enlargements.
I think failure to decisively squish the issue of Turkish accession was also a factor, not sure if it was decisive. If Remain wanted to they could have done it - Cameron could just veto Turkey's application.
Reassurances about "it's taken so long it won't happen in our lifetime" and "we can always veto it" or "on human rights ground it won't happen anyway" were never going to cut the mustard. If the EU cares so deeply about human rights and democracy, the Turkish application would be blocked by now in protest at Erdogan's more repressive policies. If we were going to veto Turkish accession, why not do it early - who can trust that a PM later down the line will stick to such a promise? We didn't veto the East European expansion so there's little reason to think we'd block Turkey either. And as for "in our lifetimes" - what was the timelag between the fall of the Berlin Wall and the accession of Poland, Hungary, the Baltic states and former Czechoslovakia? How long between the Greek colonels and the Greek accession? The Estado Novo and the Francoists, and the Iberian accessions?
In addition there's the fact that the EU and particularly the Germans need access to the UK single market much more than we need continued access to theirs, thanks to the UK trade deficit with the EU. So such a deal is perfectly possible, and the UK has a very strong negotiating hand to secure one.
I'm sorry, but exports to the UK are 3% of EU GDP against close to 10% for UK exports to the EU.
It would be just as disastrous for us to lose access to the EU as vice-versa.
That's a false comparison. You could by the same token say that exports from the rest of the world to the UK are only (say) 1% of the ROW GDP compared to (say) close to 20% for UK exports to the ROW. That wouldn't mean that either country had any less interest in maintaining the volume of trade.
What matters is that you compare the gross amount in £s (or Euros if you must). And the figures are that for every £2 we export to the EU, they export £3 to us. That is the comparison that matters, and it is why the EU has much more of a stake in maintaining the present volume of trade with the UK than.vice versa.
No, proportions matter.
Think about it this way. There are two people, one earns £100,000/year, and the other £1m/year.
A sum of £10,000 is more important to the person earning £100,000/year. Indeed, it would be more important to him than £90,000 out of the mythical millionaire.
In any case, the EU will offer is tariff free movement of goods. That's a given. The real question is about our ability to offer financial services to the EU under the passporting scheme. If we cannot, it will be a very serious blow to the UK as a financial centre.
I'm afraid we're justt going to have to differ on the issue of the relevance of proportions.
I accept that there's an issue about financial services that's particularly relevant to (EU-friendly) London, given how imbalanced the UK economy has become. However, there's an issue about our declining manufacturing base, that's particularly relevant to us here in the West Midlands. That base has declined at a precipitate rate over the past 40 years, far more steeply than in other industrialised countries, and that coincides with our membership of the EU. Some rebalancing of our economy is necessary and desirable.
Lammy ranting on Sky: "Referendum needs 2/3rds majority. We can't have rule by the mob! I'll never vote for Brexit in the HoC"
But if the economic meltdown continues then there will be a lot of people, an awful lot, who would quite like parliament to overrule the people.
I presume we have all seen Kelvin MacKenzie's public expression of Bremorse in the Sun?
As I said yesterday, the markets will decide this, and right now the markets are going mental. A bigger loss than Lehmans. We have destabilised not only ourselves, but other countries, some of which were perilously close to chaos already.
I also suggested that we were entering a dynamic, chaotic state yesterday - that we had set off an entirely unpredictable chain reaction. And I was pooh-poohed by some.
Maybe the fiend Osborne was right and we have put a bomb under everything. Eeeesh.
How do we unclusterfuck this?
You voted Out!
This uncertainty and turmoil, wholly predictable and indeed predicted, was the principal reason I backed Remain in the end, to the bemusement of some on here.
My conscience is at least clear.
I voted Leave and my conscience is also clear.
Sean is being a knob. You make your choices and you live with them. You don't go to pieces at the first sign of trouble.
Quite. I couldn't give a toss about the financial markets.
I'm not going to pieces, but it would take a halfwit not to be worried by the potential for economic calamity - and the dissolution of the Union.
Ultimately, you're proving yourself what you know, thst you're a pragmatist, with a good writing style. A Boris Johnson without the sex life perhaps. Zealots take a more robust view.
Jeremy Corbyn MP @jeremycorbyn 17h17 hours ago Those wanting to change Labour's leadership will have to stand in a democratic election in which I'll be a candidate
Can someone tell me why the splitters dont want to do this.
It can only be because they want to impose a new leader without members getting a say IMO
Anyone?
Surely some of the splitter supporters on here must have a view?
Corbyn has been given plenty of time. He has utterly failed. If the party has to split and be led in parliament by someone vaguely competent, so be it
So you dont want a democratic election where members get a say
'Hollande will cut and run, Merkel is making overtures (Mr Tyson, calm down), and the other countries are terrified of contagion. "Hard pounding this, gentlemen; let's see who will pound longest.'
Have they decided which countries will be picking up the UK's £ 11 billion budget contribution?
Is it being split among Germany,France & Italy, hence the meeting to-day ?
Sorry, but we may have to shoot Mr T as a cowardly deserter.
The markets will settle down, they always do. There'll be a few profits taken and the world will carry on. Auntie BBC has wet her knickers and the other media outlets are enjoying themselves.
The hysterical Remainers will gradually come round to "Acceptance" then we'll deal with the EU on an adult basis.
And Mr Observer, the EU is unstable, but it always was.
Lammy ranting on Sky: "Referendum needs 2/3rds majority. We can't have rule by the mob! I'll never vote for Brexit in the HoC"
But if the economic meltdown continues then there will be a lot of people, an awful lot, who would quite like parliament to overrule the people.
I presume we have all seen Kelvin MacKenzie's public expression of Bremorse in the Sun?
As I said yesterday, the markets will decide this, and right now the markets are going mental. A bigger loss than Lehmans. We have destabilised not only ourselves, but other countries, some of which were perilously close to chaos already.
I also suggested that we were entering a dynamic, chaotic state yesterday - that we had set off an entirely unpredictable chain reaction. And I was pooh-poohed by some.
Maybe the fiend Osborne was right and we have put a bomb under everything. Eeeesh.
How do we unclusterfuck this?
You voted Out!
This uncertainty and turmoil, wholly predictable and indeed predicted, was the principal reason I backed Remain in the end, to the bemusement of some on here.
My conscience is at least clear.
I voted Leave and my conscience is also clear.
Sean is being a knob. You make your choices and you live with them. You don't go to pieces at the first sign of trouble.
Quite. I couldn't give a toss about the financial markets.
I'm not going to pieces, but it would take a halfwit not to be worried by the potential for economic calamity - and the dissolution of the Union.
Ultimately, you're proving yourself what you know, thst you're a pragmatist, with a good writing style. A Boris Johnson without the sex life perhaps. Zealots take a more robust view.
I think Boris would look like a eunuch in comparison.
@thom_brooks: This is what Brexit looks like. And it ain't pretty. Public thought they voted for "control", but getting recession. https://t.co/2c7Tx3XY1w
To save anyone else clicking on that link to find out who the flying buggery someone called "Thom Brooks" might be .... his profile says he's a Labour policy advisor. So Scott's picking all the neutral ones to pass on as usual.
Lammy ranting on Sky: "Referendum needs 2/3rds majority. We can't have rule by the mob! I'll never vote for Brexit in the HoC"
But if the economic meltdown continues then there will be a lot of people, an awful lot, who would quite like parliament to overrule the people.
I presume we have all seen Kelvin MacKenzie's public expression of Bremorse in the Sun?
As I said yesterday, the markets will decide this, and right now the markets are going mental. A bigger loss than Lehmans. We have destabilised not only ourselves, but other countries, some of which were perilously close to chaos already.
I also suggested that we were entering a dynamic, chaotic state yesterday - that we had set off an entirely unpredictable chain reaction. And I was pooh-poohed by some.
Maybe the fiend Osborne was right and we have put a bomb under everything. Eeeesh.
How do we unclusterfuck this?
You voted Out!
This uncertainty and turmoil, wholly predictable and indeed predicted, was the principal reason I backed Remain in the end, to the bemusement of some on here.
My conscience is at least clear.
I voted Leave and my conscience is also clear.
Sean is being a knob. You make your choices and you live with them. You don't go to pieces at the first sign of trouble.
Quite. I couldn't give a toss about the financial markets.
I'm not going to pieces, but it would take a halfwit not to be worried by the potential for economic calamity - and the dissolution of the Union.
Do you ever go back and look at what you have written on here in the past?
The vitriol you poured on people who declared for remain was quite something. 2 working days in and your flapping like a big girl
Jeremy Corbyn MP @jeremycorbyn 17h17 hours ago Those wanting to change Labour's leadership will have to stand in a democratic election in which I'll be a candidate
Can someone tell me why the splitters dont want to do this.
It can only be because they want to impose a new leader without members getting a say IMO
Anyone?
Surely some of the splitter supporters on here must have a view?
Corbyn has been given plenty of time. He has utterly failed. If the party has to split and be led in parliament by someone vaguely competent, so be it
So you dont want a democratic election where members get a say
Fair enough nor do the splitters
Appreciate the effort at spinning. You are Peter Mandelson and I claim my £5
Jeremy Corbyn MP @jeremycorbyn 17h17 hours ago Those wanting to change Labour's leadership will have to stand in a democratic election in which I'll be a candidate
Can someone tell me why the splitters dont want to do this.
It can only be because they want to impose a new leader without members getting a say IMO
Anyone?
Surely some of the splitter supporters on here must have a view?
Corbyn has been given plenty of time. He has utterly failed. If the party has to split and be led in parliament by someone vaguely competent, so be it
So you dont want a democratic election where members get a say
Fair enough nor do the splitters
I prefer to consider the needs of the 9 million who voted Labour in 2015, not the membership which represent 0.5% of them, if that.
Lammy ranting on Sky: "Referendum needs 2/3rds majority. We can't have rule by the mob! I'll never vote for Brexit in the HoC"
But if the economic meltdown continues then there will be a lot of people, an awful lot, who would quite like parliament to overrule the people.
I presume we have all seen Kelvin MacKenzie's public expression of Bremorse in the Sun?
As I said yesterday, the markets will decide this, and right now the markets are going mental. A bigger loss than Lehmans. We have destabilised not only ourselves, but other countries, some of which were perilously close to chaos already.
I also suggested that we were entering a dynamic, chaotic state yesterday - that we had set off an entirely unpredictable chain reaction. And I was pooh-poohed by some.
Maybe the fiend Osborne was right and we have put a bomb under everything. Eeeesh.
How do we unclusterfuck this?
You voted Out!
This uncertainty and turmoil, wholly predictable and indeed predicted, was the principal reason I backed Remain in the end, to the bemusement of some on here.
My conscience is at least clear.
I voted Leave and my conscience is also clear.
Sean is being a knob. You make your choices and you live with them. You don't go to pieces at the first sign of trouble.
Quite. I couldn't give a toss about the financial markets.
An insight into the europhobe mentality. It doesn't matter how much value is wiped off the economy, how many pensions are wrecked, how many of people's hard earned assets are crushed in value or how many jobs are lost. As long as we leave the EU, that's a price worth paying.
Markets overreact and panic. Then they settle down.
31 years ago the pound almost reached parity with the dollar. Two years later, it was back at 1.50. Life went on.
One feature of this site is the obsession that so many people have with short term financial movements. They shouldn't drive long term political decisions.
"Markets overreact and panic. Then they settle down."
Lammy ranting on Sky: "Referendum needs 2/3rds majority. We can't have rule by the mob! I'll never vote for Brexit in the HoC"
But if the economic meltdown continues then there will be a lot of people, an awful lot, who would quite like parliament to overrule the people.
I presume we have all seen Kelvin MacKenzie's public expression of Bremorse in the Sun?
As I said yesterday, the markets will decide this, and right now the markets are going mental. A bigger loss than Lehmans. We have destabilised not only ourselves, but other countries, some of which were perilously close to chaos already.
I also suggested that we were entering a dynamic, chaotic state yesterday - that we had set off an entirely unpredictable chain reaction. And I was pooh-poohed by some.
Maybe the fiend Osborne was right and we have put a bomb under everything. Eeeesh.
How do we unclusterfuck this?
You voted Out!
This uncertainty and turmoil, wholly predictable and indeed predicted, was the principal reason I backed Remain in the end, to the bemusement of some on here.
My conscience is at least clear.
I voted Leave and my conscience is also clear.
Sean is being a knob. You make your choices and you live with them. You don't go to pieces at the first sign of trouble.
Quite. I couldn't give a toss about the financial markets.
An insight into the europhobe mentality. It doesn't matter how much value is wiped off the economy, how many pensions are wrecked, how many of people's hard earned assets are crushed in value or how many jobs are lost. As long as we leave the EU, that's a price worth paying.
Hey...but at least we've got our sovereignty back. Feels great doesn't it.
Lammy ranting on Sky: "Referendum needs 2/3rds majority. We can't have rule by the mob! I'll never vote for Brexit in the HoC"
But if the economic meltdown continues then there will be a lot of people, an awful lot, who would quite like parliament to overrule the people.
I presume we have all seen Kelvin MacKenzie's public expression of Bremorse in the Sun?
As I said yesterday, the markets will decide this, and right now the markets are going mental. A bigger loss than Lehmans. We have destabilised not only ourselves, but other countries, some of which were perilously close to chaos already.
I also suggested that we were entering a dynamic, chaotic state yesterday - that we had set off an entirely unpredictable chain reaction. And I was pooh-poohed by some.
Maybe the fiend Osborne was right and we have put a bomb under everything. Eeeesh.
How do we unclusterfuck this?
You voted Out!
This uncertainty and turmoil, wholly predictable and indeed predicted, was the principal reason I backed Remain in the end, to the bemusement of some on here.
My conscience is at least clear.
I voted Leave and my conscience is also clear.
Sean is being a knob. You make your choices and you live with them. You don't go to pieces at the first sign of trouble.
Quite. I couldn't give a toss about the financial markets.
Hmm, that's a very different tone from what the Tories were saying 2010. Why did we go through all that austerity if the markets don't matter?
Jeremy Corbyn MP @jeremycorbyn 17h17 hours ago Those wanting to change Labour's leadership will have to stand in a democratic election in which I'll be a candidate
Can someone tell me why the splitters dont want to do this.
It can only be because they want to impose a new leader without members getting a say IMO
Anyone?
Surely some of the splitter supporters on here must have a view?
Corbyn has been given plenty of time. He has utterly failed. If the party has to split and be led in parliament by someone vaguely competent, so be it
So you dont want a democratic election where members get a say
Fair enough nor do the splitters
Appreciate the effort at spinning. You are Peter Mandelson and I claim my £5
Do you want the members to decide a new Lab leader?
Simple question no spin required.
If so Those wanting to change Labour's leadership will have to stand in a democratic election in which JC will be a candidate.
Brexiteers look away, You want to keep pretending this is not happening
@SkyNewsBreak: National Police Chiefs' Council: reports to online hate crime reporting site up 57% between Thursday and Sunday compared to four weeks ago
Jeremy Corbyn MP @jeremycorbyn 17h17 hours ago Those wanting to change Labour's leadership will have to stand in a democratic election in which I'll be a candidate
Can someone tell me why the splitters dont want to do this.
It can only be because they want to impose a new leader without members getting a say IMO
Anyone?
Surely some of the splitter supporters on here must have a view?
Corbyn has been given plenty of time. He has utterly failed. If the party has to split and be led in parliament by someone vaguely competent, so be it
So you dont want a democratic election where members get a say
Fair enough nor do the splitters
Appreciate the effort at spinning. You are Peter Mandelson and I claim my £5
Do you want the members to decide a new Lab leader?
Simple question no spin required.
If so Those wanting to change Labour's leadership will have to stand in a democratic election in which JC will be a candidate.
Whats the problem?
Thousands of marxist nutters and idealistic dreamers in the membership. That's the problem.
Brexiteers look away, You want to keep pretending this is not happening
@SkyNewsBreak: National Police Chiefs' Council: reports to online hate crime reporting site up 57% between Thursday and Sunday compared to four weeks ago
surely online hate crime is more likely from the remain side?
Jeremy Corbyn MP @jeremycorbyn 17h17 hours ago Those wanting to change Labour's leadership will have to stand in a democratic election in which I'll be a candidate
Can someone tell me why the splitters dont want to do this.
It can only be because they want to impose a new leader without members getting a say IMO
Anyone?
Surely some of the splitter supporters on here must have a view?
Corbyn has been given plenty of time. He has utterly failed. If the party has to split and be led in parliament by someone vaguely competent, so be it
So you dont want a democratic election where members get a say
Fair enough nor do the splitters
I prefer to consider the needs of the 9 million who voted Labour in 2015, not the membership which represent 0.5% of them, if that.
So how do you think a new leader should be chosen?
Corbyn in an implicit call for Cameron to invoke Article 50 tomorrow...
Not sure it should be tomorrow but I would like to see it done very soon. Delaying it just adds to uncertainty. It will also ensure the if it's calling for the decision to be reversed can't win.
Edit. By soon I mean within days.
Whilst I agree it should be sooner rather than later, 'within days' is not practicable IMO.
Firstly, there is obviously the political dimension - civil servants will need some political direction on what we are trying to achieve, and that can only come after we have the new PM in place. Equally, or even more, our ex-EU friends need to hold discussions on what political direction they will want to give. That will take time, but it can start now, there's absolutely no need for them to wait for the Article 50 trigger.
Secondly, simply in terms of the mechanics, both sides need time to get their negotiating teams in place and figure out how the process should work. Again that doesn't need formal notification.
I suppose my point is that simply by triggering it we don't have to sit down the next morning and start negotiations.
The EU want us to trigger it because it gives them something definite to work with - all the more so because they will be looking at the suggestions we might change our minds. Forget the ranting 'how dare they tell us what to do' lot. The EU comments are perfectly sensible from their perspective. They need some certainty.
The same applies to the markets. There is more than enough uncertainty around at the moment and a lot of the current volatility in both the markets and the pound is driven by the understandable impression they are getting that no one is in charge. Invoking Article 50 again gives that certainty.
Personally of course I want it done sooner rather than later so no bugger can manage to stop it happening.
Lammy ranting on Sky: "Referendum needs 2/3rds majority. We can't have rule by the mob! I'll never vote for Brexit in the HoC"
But if the economic meltdown continues then there will be a lot of people, an awful lot, who would quite like parliament to overrule the people.
I presume we have all seen Kelvin MacKenzie's public expression of Bremorse in the Sun?
As I said yesterday, the markets will decide this, and right now the markets are going mental. A bigger loss than Lehmans. We have destabilised not only ourselves, but other countries, some of which were perilously close to chaos already.
I also suggested that we were entering a dynamic, chaotic state yesterday - that we had set off an entirely unpredictable chain reaction. And I was pooh-poohed by some.
Maybe the fiend Osborne was right and we have put a bomb under everything. Eeeesh.
How do we unclusterfuck this?
You voted Out!
This uncertainty and turmoil, wholly predictable and indeed predicted, was the principal reason I backed Remain in the end, to the bemusement of some on here.
My conscience is at least clear.
I voted Leave and my conscience is also clear.
Sean is being a knob. You make your choices and you live with them. You don't go to pieces at the first sign of trouble.
Quite. I couldn't give a toss about the financial markets.
I'm not going to pieces, but it would take a halfwit not to be worried by the potential for economic calamity - and the dissolution of the Union.
Ultimately, you're proving yourself what you know, thst you're a pragmatist, with a good writing style. A Boris Johnson without the sex life perhaps. Zealots take a more robust view.
My sex life is more exotic, quite possibly, than Bojo's.
I'm glad I'm not a zealot.
In the next few years we will find out if I was a total fucking cretin to vote LEAVE. The jury is out.
Brexiteers look away, You want to keep pretending this is not happening
@SkyNewsBreak: National Police Chiefs' Council: reports to online hate crime reporting site up 57% between Thursday and Sunday compared to four weeks ago
Really? There's an "online hate crime reporting site"?
Who pays for this bollocks? The poor suffering taxpayer on behalf of special snowflakes everywhere, that's who. There's an extra way to save a few quid.
Extraordinary that Boris has not shown up. What a complete tosser he is. I very much look forward to him taking over as PM and being exposed to the full consequences of the lies he told.
Jeremy Corbyn MP @jeremycorbyn 17h17 hours ago Those wanting to change Labour's leadership will have to stand in a democratic election in which I'll be a candidate
Can someone tell me why the splitters dont want to do this.
It can only be because they want to impose a new leader without members getting a say IMO
Anyone?
Surely some of the splitter supporters on here must have a view?
Corbyn has been given plenty of time. He has utterly failed. If the party has to split and be led in parliament by someone vaguely competent, so be it
So you dont want a democratic election where members get a say
Fair enough nor do the splitters
Appreciate the effort at spinning. You are Peter Mandelson and I claim my £5
Do you want the members to decide a new Lab leader?
Simple question no spin required.
If so Those wanting to change Labour's leadership will have to stand in a democratic election in which JC will be a candidate.
Whats the problem?
Thousands of marxist nutters and idealistic dreamers in the membership. That's the problem.
Lammy ranting on Sky: "Referendum needs 2/3rds majority. We can't have rule by the mob! I'll never vote for Brexit in the HoC"
But if the economic meltdown continues then there will be a lot of people, an awful lot, who would quite like parliament to overrule the people.
I presume we have all seen Kelvin MacKenzie's public expression of Bremorse in the Sun?
As I said yesterday, the markets will decide this, and right now the markets are going mental. A bigger loss than Lehmans. We have destabilised not only ourselves, but other countries, some of which were perilously close to chaos already.
I also suggested that we were entering a dynamic, chaotic state yesterday - that we had set off an entirely unpredictable chain reaction. And I was pooh-poohed by some.
Maybe the fiend Osborne was right and we have put a bomb under everything. Eeeesh.
How do we unclusterfuck this?
You voted Out!
This uncertainty and turmoil, wholly predictable and indeed predicted, was the principal reason I backed Remain in the end, to the bemusement of some on here.
My conscience is at least clear.
I voted Leave and my conscience is also clear.
Sean is being a knob. You make your choices and you live with them. You don't go to pieces at the first sign of trouble.
Quite. I couldn't give a toss about the financial markets.
An insight into the europhobe mentality. It doesn't matter how much value is wiped off the economy, how many pensions are wrecked, how many of people's hard earned assets are crushed in value or how many jobs are lost. As long as we leave the EU, that's a price worth paying.
Hey...but at least we've got our sovereignty back. Feels great doesn't it.
Jeremy Corbyn MP @jeremycorbyn 17h17 hours ago Those wanting to change Labour's leadership will have to stand in a democratic election in which I'll be a candidate
Can someone tell me why the splitters dont want to do this.
It can only be because they want to impose a new leader without members getting a say IMO
Anyone?
Surely some of the splitter supporters on here must have a view?
Corbyn has been given plenty of time. He has utterly failed. If the party has to split and be led in parliament by someone vaguely competent, so be it
So you dont want a democratic election where members get a say
Fair enough nor do the splitters
I prefer to consider the needs of the 9 million who voted Labour in 2015, not the membership which represent 0.5% of them, if that.
So how do you think a new leader should be chosen?
Lammy ranting on Sky: "Referendum needs 2/3rds majority. We can't have rule by the mob! I'll never vote for Brexit in the HoC"
But if the economic meltdown continues then there will be a lot of people, an awful lot, who would quite like parliament to overrule the people.
I presume we have all seen Kelvin MacKenzie's public expression of Bremorse in the Sun?
As I said yesterday, the markets will decide this, and right now the markets are going mental. A bigger loss than Lehmans. We have destabilised not only ourselves, but other countries, some of which were perilously close to chaos already.
I also suggested that we were entering a dynamic, chaotic state yesterday - that we had set off an entirely unpredictable chain reaction. And I was pooh-poohed by some.
Maybe the fiend Osborne was right and we have put a bomb under everything. Eeeesh.
How do we unclusterfuck this?
You voted Out!
This uncertainty and turmoil, wholly predictable and indeed predicted, was the principal reason I backed Remain in the end, to the bemusement of some on here.
My conscience is at least clear.
I voted Leave and my conscience is also clear.
Sean is being a knob. You make your choices and you live with them. You don't go to pieces at the first sign of trouble.
Quite. I couldn't give a toss about the financial markets.
I'm not going to pieces, but it would take a halfwit not to be worried by the potential for economic calamity - and the dissolution of the Union.
Do you ever go back and look at what you have written on here in the past?
The vitriol you poured on people who declared for remain was quite something. 2 working days in and your flapping like a big girl
lol. I happily admit it's not been my finest hour. I am unnerved. Im my defence, I am unnerved by the numbers of people I like, admire, and even love, who are absolutely shattered by this result - in tears, distraught, looking at horrible changes to their lives.
It's very hard to be relentlessly stoical and convinced of one's virtue when this is happening to immediate friends and family.
You were warned.
Sack up you Quisling pig, which I believe is the comment you aimed at me for backing Remain
Personally of course I want it done sooner rather than later so no bugger can manage to stop it happening.
I'll go along with that.
Liam Fox made the point (Sunday Politics interview?) that the EU budget runs Jan-Dec, so to avoid being caught up for an extra year we should trigger article 50 before Jan.
Lammy ranting on Sky: "Referendum needs 2/3rds majority. We can't have rule by the mob! I'll never vote for Brexit in the HoC"
But if the economic meltdown continues then there will be a lot of people, an awful lot, who would quite like parliament to overrule the people.
I presume we have all seen Kelvin MacKenzie's public expression of Bremorse in the Sun?
As I said yesterday, the markets will decide this, and right now the markets are going mental. A bigger loss than Lehmans. We have destabilised not only ourselves, but other countries, some of which were perilously close to chaos already.
I also suggested that we were entering a dynamic, chaotic state yesterday - that we had set off an entirely unpredictable chain reaction. And I was pooh-poohed by some.
Maybe the fiend Osborne was right and we have put a bomb under everything. Eeeesh.
How do we unclusterfuck this?
You voted Out!
This uncertainty and turmoil, wholly predictable and indeed predicted, was the principal reason I backed Remain in the end, to the bemusement of some on here.
My conscience is at least clear.
I voted Leave and my conscience is also clear.
Sean is being a knob. You make your choices and you live with them. You don't go to pieces at the first sign of trouble.
Quite. I couldn't give a toss about the financial markets.
I'm not going to pieces, but it would take a halfwit not to be worried by the potential for economic calamity - and the dissolution of the Union.
Do you ever go back and look at what you have written on here in the past?
The vitriol you poured on people who declared for remain was quite something. 2 working days in and your flapping like a big girl
lol. I happily admit it's not been my finest hour. I am unnerved. Im my defence, I am unnerved by the numbers of people I like, admire, and even love, who are absolutely shattered by this result - in tears, distraught, looking at horrible changes to their lives.
It's very hard to be relentlessly stoical and convinced of one's virtue when this is happening to immediate friends and family.
Fair play to you for having the cojones to admit you were wrong.
I've phoned one of my brothers in Brexit Central. He says Boston is overjoyed and not worried at all. It's party time there. If you go and claim to have voted Leave you'll be garlanded with flowers.
Contemplating Boris's lack of spine, I am reminded of Monty Python's Brave Sir Robin:
Brave Sir Robin ran away (No!) Bravely ran away away (I didn't!) When danger reared its ugly head He bravely turned his tail and fled (No!) Yes, brave Sir Robin turned about (I didn't!) And gallantly he chickened out
Lammy ranting on Sky: "Referendum needs 2/3rds majority. We can't have rule by the mob! I'll never vote for Brexit in the HoC"
But if the economic meltdown continues then there will be a lot of people, an awful lot, who would quite like parliament to overrule the people.
I presume we have all seen Kelvin MacKenzie's public expression of Bremorse in the Sun?
As I said yesterday, the markets will decide this, and right now the markets are going mental. A bigger loss than Lehmans. We have destabilised not only ourselves, but other countries, some of which were perilously close to chaos already.
I also suggested that we were entering a dynamic, chaotic state yesterday - that we had set off an entirely unpredictable chain reaction. And I was pooh-poohed by some.
Maybe the fiend Osborne was right and we have put a bomb under everything. Eeeesh.
How do we unclusterfuck this?
You voted Out!
This uncertainty and turmoil, wholly predictable and indeed predicted, was the principal reason I backed Remain in the end, to the bemusement of some on here.
My conscience is at least clear.
I voted Leave and my conscience is also clear.
Sean is being a knob. You make your choices and you live with them. You don't go to pieces at the first sign of trouble.
Quite. I couldn't give a toss about the financial markets.
I'm not going to pieces, but it would take a halfwit not to be worried by the potential for economic calamity - and the dissolution of the Union.
Do you ever go back and look at what you have written on here in the past?
The vitriol you poured on people who declared for remain was quite something. 2 working days in and your flapping like a big girl
lol. I happily admit it's not been my finest hour. I am unnerved. Im my defence, I am unnerved by the numbers of people I like, admire, and even love, who are absolutely shattered by this result - in tears, distraught, looking at horrible changes to their lives.
It's very hard to be relentlessly stoical and convinced of one's virtue when this is happening to immediate friends and family.
Fair play to you for having the cojones to admit you were wrong.
Sean will change his mind at least 3 times more before Xmas.
Lammy ranting on Sky: "Referendum needs 2/3rds majority. We can't have rule by the mob! I'll never vote for Brexit in the HoC"
But if the economic meltdown continues then there will be a lot of people, an awful lot, who would quite like parliament to overrule the people.
I presume we have all seen Kelvin MacKenzie's public expression of Bremorse in the Sun?
As I said yesterday, the markets will decide this, and right now the markets are going mental. A bigger loss than Lehmans. We have destabilised not only ourselves, but other countries, some of which were perilously close to chaos already.
I also suggested that we were entering a dynamic, chaotic state yesterday - that we had set off an entirely unpredictable chain reaction. And I was pooh-poohed by some.
Maybe the fiend Osborne was right and we have put a bomb under everything. Eeeesh.
How do we unclusterfuck this?
You voted Out!
This uncertainty and turmoil, wholly predictable and indeed predicted, was the principal reason I backed Remain in the end, to the bemusement of some on here.
My conscience is at least clear.
I voted Leave and my conscience is also clear.
Sean is being a knob. You make your choices and you live with them. You don't go to pieces at the first sign of trouble.
Quite. I couldn't give a toss about the financial markets.
I'm not going to pieces, but it would take a halfwit not to be worried by the potential for economic calamity - and the dissolution of the Union.
Do you ever go back and look at what you have written on here in the past?
The vitriol you poured on people who declared for remain was quite something. 2 working days in and your flapping like a big girl
lol. I happily admit it's not been my finest hour. I am unnerved. Im my defence, I am unnerved by the numbers of people I like, admire, and even love, who are absolutely shattered by this result - in tears, distraught, looking at horrible changes to their lives.
It's very hard to be relentlessly stoical and convinced of one's virtue when this is happening to immediate friends and family.
Fair play to you for having the cojones to admit you were wrong.
Kelvin McKenzie this morning, SeanT this afternoon. How many others are out there? What a disaster.
Jeremy Corbyn MP @jeremycorbyn 17h17 hours ago Those wanting to change Labour's leadership will have to stand in a democratic election in which I'll be a candidate
Can someone tell me why the splitters dont want to do this.
It can only be because they want to impose a new leader without members getting a say IMO
Anyone?
Surely some of the splitter supporters on here must have a view?
Corbyn has been given plenty of time. He has utterly failed. If the party has to split and be led in parliament by someone vaguely competent, so be it
So you dont want a democratic election where members get a say
Fair enough nor do the splitters
Appreciate the effort at spinning. You are Peter Mandelson and I claim my £5
Do you want the members to decide a new Lab leader?
Simple question no spin required.
If so Those wanting to change Labour's leadership will have to stand in a democratic election in which JC will be a candidate.
Whats the problem?
I would like to see the leadership rules played with a straight bat. As such candidates should only be nominated if they have the actual, real support of the PLP. Clearly to lead Labour you need the support of both members and MPs.
If I were to change anything I would amend the £3 rules where anyone can claim to be a supporter of the party and get a vote. We caught some Tories for Corbyn at my CLP (a sitting councillor FFS), but I suspect we didn't catch them all.
Comments
Edit. By soon I mean within days.
Much appreciated.
The Membership will continue to elect a leader who will cost them their jobs because the Membership does not reflect the values of a significant chunk of traditional Labour voters without whom the party is unelectable save in urban socialist paradises. An alternative way has to be found to save the Labour movement (not party) from Jez and the current Membership.
Stiff upper lip, man. The turmoil is worse in Europe. The old headline ... "Fog blankets channel. Europe cut off." is correct.
Hollande will cut and run, Merkel is making overtures (Mr Tyson, calm down), and the other countries are terrified of contagion. "Hard pounding this, gentlemen; let's see who will pound longest."
Who could have predicted this.
Just realised I backed Corbyn to go in Oct-Dec 2017 instead of Oct-Dec 2016.
No wonder the odds were decent...!
Should Jeremy Corbyn resign as Labour leader?
YES 40%
NO 60%
Here's a small quiz ...
(1) Did you vote Labour at the last election?
(2( Did you vote Remain?
If you answered yes to both - congratulations, your "Champagne Socialist" badge is in the post.
@alexmassie: Requires people to embrace, rather than just accept, Boris as a charlatan. Might make politics impossible for a generation, too.
31 years ago the pound almost reached parity with the dollar. Two years later, it was back at 1.50. Life went on.
One feature of this site is the obsession that so many people have with short term financial movements. They shouldn't drive long term political decisions.
Elected by Whom?
He's in more trouble than even I imagined.
Firstly, there is obviously the political dimension - civil servants will need some political direction on what we are trying to achieve, and that can only come after we have the new PM in place. Equally, or even more, our ex-EU friends need to hold discussions on what political direction they will want to give. That will take time, but it can start now, there's absolutely no need for them to wait for the Article 50 trigger.
Secondly, simply in terms of the mechanics, both sides need time to get their negotiating teams in place and figure out how the process should work. Again that doesn't need formal notification.
BBC News, 5 June 2003:
A report indicated that up to 13,000 extra economic migrants could come to Britain each year as a direct result of 10 new countries joining the organisation.
The Conservatives have expressed fears that expanding the EU would result in large numbers of people from the former Communist countries looking for a more prosperous future in countries like the UK.
But Home Office Minister Beverley Hughes told MPs: "The number coming here for employment will be minimal."
If that had panned out as predicted, it is hard to see a path for a Leave victory - they certainly wouldn't have achieved such stonking results in places like Wisbech and Boston that were demographically transformed by the 2004 and 2007 enlargements.
I think failure to decisively squish the issue of Turkish accession was also a factor, not sure if it was decisive. If Remain wanted to they could have done it - Cameron could just veto Turkey's application.
Reassurances about "it's taken so long it won't happen in our lifetime" and "we can always veto it" or "on human rights ground it won't happen anyway" were never going to cut the mustard. If the EU cares so deeply about human rights and democracy, the Turkish application would be blocked by now in protest at Erdogan's more repressive policies. If we were going to veto Turkish accession, why not do it early - who can trust that a PM later down the line will stick to such a promise? We didn't veto the East European expansion so there's little reason to think we'd block Turkey either. And as for "in our lifetimes" - what was the timelag between the fall of the Berlin Wall and the accession of Poland, Hungary, the Baltic states and former Czechoslovakia? How long between the Greek colonels and the Greek accession? The Estado Novo and the Francoists, and the Iberian accessions?
I accept that there's an issue about financial services that's particularly relevant to (EU-friendly) London, given how imbalanced the UK economy has become. However, there's an issue about our declining manufacturing base, that's particularly relevant to us here in the West Midlands. That base has declined at a precipitate rate over the past 40 years, far more steeply than in other industrialised countries, and that coincides with our membership of the EU. Some rebalancing of our economy is necessary and desirable.
Fair enough nor do the splitters
twitter.com/AmbroseEP/status/747390020525359104
'Hollande will cut and run, Merkel is making overtures (Mr Tyson, calm down), and the other countries are terrified of contagion. "Hard pounding this, gentlemen; let's see who will pound longest.'
Have they decided which countries will be picking up the UK's £ 11 billion budget contribution?
Is it being split among Germany,France & Italy, hence the meeting to-day ?
The markets will settle down, they always do. There'll be a few profits taken and the world will carry on. Auntie BBC has wet her knickers and the other media outlets are enjoying themselves.
The hysterical Remainers will gradually come round to "Acceptance" then we'll deal with the EU on an adult basis.
And Mr Observer, the EU is unstable, but it always was.
The vitriol you poured on people who declared for remain was quite something. 2 working days in and your flapping like a big girl
EFTA/EEA here we come?
See last Thursday on Betfair for evidence of that
Simple question no spin required.
If so Those wanting to change Labour's leadership will have to stand in a democratic election in which JC will be a candidate.
Whats the problem?
Could another referendum be on the cards?
@SkyNewsBreak: National Police Chiefs' Council: reports to online hate crime reporting site up 57% between Thursday and Sunday compared to four weeks ago
I recon he'll keep his seat if he stands.
Fancy an evens bet?
All the Scots Indy polls post Brexit give Indy a lead, by various margins.
It seems obvious to me that he is a shoo in
Is there a way of betting with people on here who disagree, like a betting exchange without the commision?
Well they should hurry up then, because by the time we actually get EU-lite the country will be full-scale fucked.
Simple question.
The EU want us to trigger it because it gives them something definite to work with - all the more so because they will be looking at the suggestions we might change our minds. Forget the ranting 'how dare they tell us what to do' lot. The EU comments are perfectly sensible from their perspective. They need some certainty.
The same applies to the markets. There is more than enough uncertainty around at the moment and a lot of the current volatility in both the markets and the pound is driven by the understandable impression they are getting that no one is in charge. Invoking Article 50 again gives that certainty.
Personally of course I want it done sooner rather than later so no bugger can manage to stop it happening.
Who pays for this bollocks? The poor suffering taxpayer on behalf of special snowflakes everywhere, that's who. There's an extra way to save a few quid.
Interestingly, the early possible bets I was considering (didn't back) for Vettel or Raikkonen to win have both shortened.
Sack up you Quisling pig, which I believe is the comment you aimed at me for backing Remain
Liam Fox made the point (Sunday Politics interview?) that the EU budget runs Jan-Dec, so to avoid being caught up for an extra year we should trigger article 50 before Jan.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jcATmvGiDQ
I've phoned one of my brothers in Brexit Central. He says Boston is overjoyed and not worried at all. It's party time there. If you go and claim to have voted Leave you'll be garlanded with flowers.
Brave Sir Robin ran away
(No!)
Bravely ran away away
(I didn't!)
When danger reared its ugly head
He bravely turned his tail and fled
(No!)
Yes, brave Sir Robin turned about
(I didn't!)
And gallantly he chickened out
If I were to change anything I would amend the £3 rules where anyone can claim to be a supporter of the party and get a vote. We caught some Tories for Corbyn at my CLP (a sitting councillor FFS), but I suspect we didn't catch them all.