politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Guest slot: The impact of leaving the EU on London’s techno

Fair enough. I disagree. My experience of observing and reporting on the tech-based start-up scene for 20+ years is that flexibility and speed are everything. Anything that slows development down is a potential killer. Low bureaucracy, plus immediate access to finance and talent are what have helped London. I guess we'll find out soon enough what happens when you take one of those components away. My guess is that we are going to do a lot of good for places like Berlin and Barcelona. I hope I'm wrong.

You seem to be doing the usual Remain thing of assuming that Brexit = a total travel ban / work visa ban on everyone. A fully independent UK that had a sensible points system could let techie programmers in the same day if it wanted to. From India and the USA and anywhere, as well as the EU.

Bromptonaut said:

MattW said:

Bromptonaut said:

dugarbandier said:

SouthamObserver said:

How many tech-based start ups with one idea and seeking early stage funding have you worked for?

just out of interest, is there any actual evidence that the "start-up" model is actually a sensible way to do things? granted, it probably stimulates local pizza and coffee outlets. But anything else?

Yes. Our firm, started circa 10 years ago by me and a laptop, now employs circa 50 people in 5 offices, including a number of very talented people from other EU countries.

Being in the EU has helped us. I don't see any of this 'red tape from Brussels' that the mouthfoamers keep blathering about.

You would have seen it had you been, for example, a fisherman.

Yes indeed. As I would have were I a farrier around the time Henry Ford was in his pomp.

What a trite response.

Perhaps you think fish come from little brown men in the Pacific.

I'm out of the conversation.

Patrick said:

Fair enough. I disagree. My experience of observing and reporting on the tech-based start-up scene for 20+ years is that flexibility and speed are everything. Anything that slows development down is a potential killer. Low bureaucracy, plus immediate access to finance and talent are what have helped London. I guess we'll find out soon enough what happens when you take one of those components away. My guess is that we are going to do a lot of good for places like Berlin and Barcelona. I hope I'm wrong.

You seem to be doing the usual Remain thing of assuming that Brexit = a total travel ban / work visa ban on everyone. A fully independent UK that had a sensible points system could let techie programmers in the same day if it wanted to. From India and the USA and anywhere, as well as the EU.

Precisely.

What the remainers refuse to countenance is that the UK could actually free up large chunks of admin for areas it wishes to develop, or create more tax breaks or allow more domestic sourcing to help get industries on their feet.

Great article- but logic and reason doesn't apply to the Euro headbangers with their heady cocktail of populism, nationalism, racism and lowest common denominator and nihilistic politics.

I was watching Rai News here in Italy the other night- they were making the connection with the hooligans and Brexit showing scenes of the thugs singing fuck off EU, we're going out.
Italy is an anglophile country- they love the English, but our currency is rapidly disintegrating. I went to a gig on Friday in Florence- we normally bring our Union Jack to these events, but we didn't. What with Brexit and it's conflation with English hooliganism who would want to associate themselves with the UK at the minute?

Brexit- you are on the wrong side of the fence at the wrong time in history. We need to be part of an evolving EU for all it's faults. If we walk away Britain, Europe and the world becomes a worse place for all.

SouthamObserver said:

Moses_ said:

SouthamObserver said:

Moses_ said:

@Southam

"How many tech-based start ups with one idea and seeking early stage funding have you worked for"

I have worked for one, my own company with two others and we had a single revolutionary idea that included computer based learning and an in house bespoke software package we developed to support the process that could be used remotely. We put our own cash into this and looked for cash input from universities but at the time it was very restricted so plodded on ourselves anyway.

This is when CBT or CBL was in its infancy for general use anyway back in 90's though of course simulation was not new. We did work for Cable &Wireless. We also did the process for a Fibre optic jointing training school at BT, training for Scotrail on train engineering and also Toyota cars Uk and into specific areas of the Japanese function for production lines. We were rapidly overtaken as larger companies got on board and to be fair became much better. We also made an error in not expanding I suppose and having only the one main product. Could have been so much different .

So yeah fair cop.....not much really.

So you did that in the UK, with no visa issues to worry about.

Cable and Wireless and Toyota are international companies. So yes amongst others USA , Qatar and UAE. ( Qatar was the most difficult they said they could build it themselves). I don't recollect any major issues at the time other than some forms. No doubt you will tell me I was wrong but as you seem to be trying to either catch me out or prove a point despite the detail I gave there is little point in engaging further.

You also presumed the Fibre optic training school was in UK.

I am not trying to catch you out. I am trying to understand how your experience is relevant to tech-based start-ups that have no resources or time for an HR function but need immediate access to world class talent.

How's that different from any other start up ?

Note : major move on Betfair overnight - currently 2.84, implied probablility 35%

bluenoserog said:

Bromptonaut said:

MattW said:

Bromptonaut said:

dugarbandier said:

SouthamObserver said:

How many tech-based start ups with one idea and seeking early stage funding have you worked for?

just out of interest, is there any actual evidence that the "start-up" model is actually a sensible way to do things? granted, it probably stimulates local pizza and coffee outlets. But anything else?

Yes. Our firm, started circa 10 years ago by me and a laptop, now employs circa 50 people in 5 offices, including a number of very talented people from other EU countries.

Being in the EU has helped us. I don't see any of this 'red tape from Brussels' that the mouthfoamers keep blathering about.

You would have seen it had you been, for example, a fisherman.

Yes indeed. As I would have were I a farrier around the time Henry Ford was in his pomp.

What an arrogant comment! Try saying in an Aberdeen pub on a Saturday night.

I’m prepared to be told I’m wrong, but weren’t fish stocks running low BEFORE the CFP took effect? Compare the cod stocks (or lack of them) on the Grand Banks.

tyson said:

Great article- but logic and reason doesn't apply to the Euro headbangers with their heady cocktail of populism, nationalism, racism and lowest common denominator and nihilistic politics.

I was watching Rai News here in Italy the other night- they were making the connection with the hooligans and Brexit showing scenes of the thugs singing fuck off EU, we're going out.
Italy is an anglophile country- they love the English, but our currency is rapidly disintegrating. I went to a gig on Friday in Florence- we normally bring our Union Jack to these events, but we didn't. What with Brexit and it's conflation with English hooliganism who would want to associate themselves with the UK at the minute?

Brexit- you are on the wrong side of the fence at the wrong time in history. We need to be part of an evolving EU for all it's faults. If we walk away Britain, Europe and the world becomes a worse place for all.

You'll be telling us about the inevitability of communiusm next.

Alanbrooke said:

SouthamObserver said:

Moses_ said:

SouthamObserver said:

Moses_ said:

@Southam

"How many tech-based start ups with one idea and seeking early stage funding have you worked for"

I have worked for one, my own company with two others and we had a single revolutionary idea that included computer based learning and an in house bespoke software package we developed to support the process that could be used remotely. We put our own cash into this and looked for cash input from universities but at the time it was very restricted so plodded on ourselves anyway.

This is when CBT or CBL was in its infancy for general use anyway back in 90's though of course simulation was not new. We did work for Cable &Wireless. We also did the process for a Fibre optic jointing training school at BT, training for Scotrail on train engineering and also Toyota cars Uk and into specific areas of the Japanese function for production lines. We were rapidly overtaken as larger companies got on board and to be fair became much better. We also made an error in not expanding I suppose and having only the one main product. Could have been so much different .

So yeah fair cop.....not much really.

So you did that in the UK, with no visa issues to worry about.

Cable and Wireless and Toyota are international companies. So yes amongst others USA , Qatar and UAE. ( Qatar was the most difficult they said they could build it themselves). I don't recollect any major issues at the time other than some forms. No doubt you will tell me I was wrong but as you seem to be trying to either catch me out or prove a point despite the detail I gave there is little point in engaging further.

You also presumed the Fibre optic training school was in UK.

I am not trying to catch you out. I am trying to understand how your experience is relevant to tech-based start-ups that have no resources or time for an HR function but need immediate access to world class talent.

How's that different from any other start up ?

Depends on the sector, doesn't it? If you're starting up a delivery business your potential pool of talent is rather bigger.

rottenborough said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Huge jump in Remain price - 1.53/1.54.

Presumably there's a poll out.

leave below 3. first time i can recall that.

It went briefly to 2.7 some months back.

It was claimed at the time though the price was being 'manipulated' by a rich leave backer.

A stable shortening this time though.

AlastairMeeks said:

Huge jump in Remain price - 1.53/1.54.

Presumably there's a poll out.

Gordon Brown is back

Patrick said:

Fair enough. I disagree. My experience of observing and reporting on the tech-based start-up scene for 20+ years is that flexibility and speed are everything. Anything that slows development down is a potential killer. Low bureaucracy, plus immediate access to finance and talent are what have helped London. I guess we'll find out soon enough what happens when you take one of those components away. My guess is that we are going to do a lot of good for places like Berlin and Barcelona. I hope I'm wrong.

You seem to be doing the usual Remain thing of assuming that Brexit = a total travel ban / work visa ban on everyone. A fully independent UK that had a sensible points system could let techie programmers in the same day if it wanted to. From India and the USA and anywhere, as well as the EU.



No, I am assuming that Brexit means work visas. Can you tell me how the same day entry system will work?

The Orlando shooting is a real inkblot of all the US' problems percieved and real depending on your views:

Islamic terrorism spreading to the US.
Homegrown New York terrorist.
Lax gun control laws.
Homophobic attack.
Lone wolf attack.
"Inspired" by IS.
Insufficient help for a mentally unstable man.
Easy access to assault weapons for the mentally ill.

MattW said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Huge jump in Remain price - 1.53/1.54.

Presumably there's a poll out.

Boo.

And I levelled off my Leave position last night for safety.

Ah well, a good profit in the hand...

Is there a poll due? Otherwise might be just rumours coming from Labour MPs returning from a weekend of canvassing with ashen faces.

http://order-order.com/2016/06/12/owen-jones-walks-out-of-sky-news-paper-review/

reverend_cat said:

rottenborough said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Huge jump in Remain price - 1.53/1.54.

Presumably there's a poll out.

leave below 3. first time i can recall that.

It went briefly to 2.7 some months back.

It was claimed at the time though the price was being 'manipulated' by a rich leave backer.

A stable shortening this time though.

No - it went to 2.81 - and then shot up to 2.9 - now 2.86. - you can see £42 at 2.82 - so someone is manipulating.

Alanbrooke said:

Patrick said:

Fair enough. I disagree. My experience of observing and reporting on the tech-based start-up scene for 20+ years is that flexibility and speed are everything. Anything that slows development down is a potential killer. Low bureaucracy, plus immediate access to finance and talent are what have helped London. I guess we'll find out soon enough what happens when you take one of those components away. My guess is that we are going to do a lot of good for places like Berlin and Barcelona. I hope I'm wrong.

You seem to be doing the usual Remain thing of assuming that Brexit = a total travel ban / work visa ban on everyone. A fully independent UK that had a sensible points system could let techie programmers in the same day if it wanted to. From India and the USA and anywhere, as well as the EU.

Precisely.

What the remainers refuse to countenance is that the UK could actually free up large chunks of admin for areas it wishes to develop, or create more tax breaks or allow more domestic sourcing to help get industries on their feet.

Yep our civil servants would be freed up to ensure that we comply with all EU regulations as they would continue to apply to us; and also to set up a WTO negotiating and implementation team; and also to set up a UK Imperial Cry Freedom Standards committee.

Alanbrooke said:

Cicero said:

Alanbrooke said:

Cicero said:

Let me declare an interest, since I am involved in the Tallinn tech scene, being based here in Estonia. (Amongst other things, I am also the President of the British Estonian Chamber of Commerce). Estonia has a good claim to being the most technologically advanced society in the world and has become a stand out place for the development of new technology: not just Skype or Transferwise, but a whole new Fintech scene is being developed by Estonians both in Tallinn and in the UK.



The idea that the UK can just walk away from the entire European project, expecting that the rest of Europe will be just fine with that, defies credulity. A lot of people will be extremely angry at the disruption and chaos that would be caused, and in any Brexit negotiations even the UK's friends are set to be playing hardball.

So does that mean next time Vladimir gets a bit pushy, the Estonians won't be asking us to help out ? I mean if they're screwing us to the wall and can't accept that we've got as much right to freedom as they have, why should we be sending body bags to council estates in Manchester or Glasgow ?

The UK and Estonia are very close military allies, but as your hostile attitude shows: even that incredibly close relationship is now seen to be at risk. The point is that Vlad's nukes are pointed at your house as much (if not more) than they are pointed at Tallinn: if you don't recognize that Putin is a common threat, then that would make the UK a pretty unreliable ally. The Brexit debate is already suggesting to some of the UK's best friends that Britain cannot be relied on. Good news is 10,000 US troops are moving to the eastern flank. Bad news is that the US is just as pi**ed off with the UK as everyone else.

The implied threat to NATO that you and others make is only adding to the deep concern.

Tosh.

You raised the issue of a minnow making a threat, frankly HMG will stand by its NATO commitments as it always does. But if Estonia really was that interested in keeping the UK in the EU then it should have stuck its neck out to say there is a serious issue in the UK which we need to solve and people like yourself on trade councils should have been making that point clearly to your opposite numbers.

You didn't.

Well of course we did!!!!

As soon as it become clear that there was a real risk, all of the European Chambers spoke out- just because we were dismissed as just a another bunch or irrelevant "experts" does not make our warnings any the less. COBCOE and other umbrella organisations have spoken out in the strongest possible terms. We have no doubt: even the threat of Brexit is causing damage. A Brexit reality would be drastically more difficult for British business and British interests across Europe and around the world. All neutral research points out the economic damage - and frankly the majority of British business is furious that our clear concerns have been been dismissed out of hand by post truth politicians.

Dismiss these clear warnings as "project fear" all you like- but be in no doubt there will be a very large price to pay for a withdrawal from the EU. It really is even a risk to the system of collective security- as your previous threat to link NATO to EU negotiations makes crystal clear. The damage is being done today, now. Even after a Remain vote it will take some time to restore the image of Brand UK, and a Brexit will cost years and billions of Pounds before any recovery would come.

"Some equality provisions have come from the centre-right – it was a Conservative Government that introduced a Disability Discrimination Act – but their driving force (let’s face it) has usually come from the Left .........But if it is true that the Left has been foremost in pushing the cause of equality, including gay equality, it is also true that parts of the Left are in cahoots with those who would destroy it. A far left-Islamist alliance is struggling to dominate the Left, and has already chalked up some victories – including the presence within the Labour Party, one of the great public institutions of British life, of an anti-semitism so vicious that even its present leadership could not deny an official inquiry. Those who come for Jews today will come for gays tomorrow. This is a truth more comprehensively grasped on the Right of politics now than on the Left."
http://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2016/06/orlando-a-british-born-preacher-says-death-is-the-sentence-for-gay-people-only-a-few-months-later-scores-are-murdered.html

AlastairMeeks said:

Huge jump in Remain price - 1.53/1.54.

Presumably there's a poll out.

It is extraordinary that the odds on Leave are not shorter. Great for betting, but just totally bizarre. All the indications are that Remain know they're finished. Even SamCam made a DPS appearance yesterday. Next it'll be the Queen letting slip a quiet comment.

Moses_ said:

SouthamObserver said:

Moses_ said:

@Southam

"How many tech-based start ups with one idea and seeking early stage funding have you worked for"

I have worked for one, my own company with two others and we had a single revolutionary idea that included computer based learning and an in house bespoke software package we developed to support the process that could be used remotely. We put our own cash into this and looked for cash input from universities but at the time it was very restricted so plodded on ourselves anyway.

This is when CBT or CBL was in its infancy for general use anyway back in 90's though of course simulation was not new. We did work for Cable &Wireless. We also did the process for a Fibre optic jointing training school at BT, training for Scotrail on train engineering and also Toyota cars Uk and into specific areas of the Japanese function for production lines. We were rapidly overtaken as larger companies got on board and to be fair became much better. We also made an error in not expanding I suppose and having only the one main product. Could have been so much different .

So yeah fair cop.....not much really.

So you did that in the UK, with no visa issues to worry about.

Cable and Wireless and Toyota are international companies. So yes amongst others USA , Qatar and UAE. ( Qatar was the most difficult they said they could build it themselves). I don't recollect any major issues at the time other than some forms. No doubt you will tell me I was wrong but as you seem to be trying to either catch me out or prove a point despite the detail I gave there is little point in engaging further.

You also presumed the Fibre optic training school was in UK.

Moses- my brother is a leading tech entrepreneur, and now working as a Chief Operating Officer for a major company in the US- he is responsible for thousands of staff. For him, with all his qualifications, it was difficult enough to get his VISA, but he has really struggled to bring across many of his old team from Manchester.

My wife worked for a major publisher- she had to fill a niche role in her company in the UK, and it took over 9 months to get the applicant in from outside the EU. If we leave the EU- this process will only become more cumbersome as more pressure will be placed on the system.

Quite how you are able to work hither and thither is beyond me. Were you being employed as a permanent member of staff by a US company? But leaving the UK will seriously restrict the flow of excellent pool of Labour we have access to from Italy, Spain, Germany, Holland etc.....

CD13 said:

There does seem to be a lot of opprobrium targeted at white, British people on here from a few people. "Bingo players from Preston", "ignorant" and that's without going into fruitcakes, loons etc. Typical racist-type prejudice hidden under a smug and arrogant superiority complex. Perhaps we should call these posh racists what they are?

Bigots.

Roger can be funny and informative, but a democrat he is not.

Lord Snooty and some metropolitan liberals do have a lot in common. Lady bucket is a prime example, and Roger, despite some of his endearing qualities is too

The problem is that stereotyping is common to all groups in society - I'm guilty of it myself - but at least I know I'm doing it.

Here we go ... Muslims tend to hate gays and blow people up, gays tend to be drama queens, luvvies are self-obsessed monomaniacs, scousers have a chip on both shoulders, gypos are thieves (see also scousers), and that's without starting on "darkies".

It's just happens that some are acceptable to the Establishment.

Edit: the professional whingers say it's all about power. Since when has the wwc been "powerful"?

I used a bingo hall in Preston because Laura Kuenssberg did a vox pop from there. She asked how many were for 'Leave' and it was unanimous. She then asked why and every answer was about keeping 'them' out

PlatoSaid said:

SouthamObserver said:

CD13 said:

Ms Plato,

Thanks for the reference to the article. A lot of sense there. I was going to say "for a change" because most journalists are "lazy, drunken and ignorant." just as Guardian journalists are smug, arrogant, know-it-alls, as well.

Easy, isn't it? And a way to make yourself feel superior, which is why they do it themselves.

Owen Jones wrote a book about it called Chavs. Well worth a read.

I heard several intv with him when he was selling the book - I'd rather stab myself with a fork than read it. He's got far too many axes to grind. He wants to be Billy Elliott.

Stabbing myself with a fork......that's rather the feeling I get when I see your obsessive posting on this site. Do you ever the time out from pbCOM?

PlatoSaid said:

SouthamObserver said:

CD13 said:

Ms Plato,

Thanks for the reference to the article. A lot of sense there. I was going to say "for a change" because most journalists are "lazy, drunken and ignorant." just as Guardian journalists are smug, arrogant, know-it-alls, as well.

Easy, isn't it? And a way to make yourself feel superior, which is why they do it themselves.

Owen Jones wrote a book about it called Chavs. Well worth a read.

I heard several intv with him when he was selling the book - I'd rather stab myself with a fork than read it. He's got far too many axes to grind. He wants to be Billy Elliott.

That's the spirit. Best to shut yourself off from views that don't reinforce your own prejudices.

Is anyone on here near NW8 ?

If so is it raining ?

brokenwheel said:

Eugh, as a STEM graduate this article incenses me.

I also have a masters degree in engineering and my secondary education was in maths, physics and chemistry.

Remainers do not speak for us.

Cicero said:

Let me declare an interest, since I am involved in the Tallinn tech scene, being based here in Estonia. (Amongst other things, I am also the President of the British Estonian Chamber of Commerce). Estonia has a good claim to being the most technologically advanced society in the world and has become a stand out place for the development of new technology: not just Skype or Transferwise, but a whole new Fintech scene is being developed by Estonians both in Tallinn and in the UK.

The way it has been developing is very interesting though. Many Estonian entrepreneurs set up UK registered businesses and use British service providers and investors to develop corporate infrastructure through which they develop their products and wider intellectual property. Relatively speaking, London/UK does not have a lot of home grown intellectual property, but it does have infrastructure which is used by a lot of people from elsewhere. Incidentally the connections between the Tallinn tech providers and the UK have helped upgrade the DVLC, for example.

Until quite recently Estonians did not take the threat of Brexit seriously, but now they are, it is already causing a lot of second thoughts about this well tried business model. Even now, getting critical programmers from say Belarus, Ukraine or Russia over to London, even those who have Schengen visas, so are based in Tallinn, is already a slow and expensive process. Nor is the problem just a practical one: the attitude that would be implied by the sudden imposition of blanket visa requirements will drive the techies away faster than the reality itself. Several start ups are suggesting to me that Berlin is now a safer bet than London.

The referendum debate has been viewed with first bemusement, then concern and now a mixture of shock and anger. This debate has quietly trashed the UK's reputation for intelligence, tolerance and openness, and frankly I just don't see any post Brexit government (if that is what happens) being able to recover the damage to the UK brand anytime soon. The quality of the debate, especially the casual dismissal of the opinion of "experts" in favour of some visceral hunches has been particularly shocking to the well educated and well informed Estonians, the population of a country that is one of the UK's closest friends in the EU and NATO.

The idea that the UK can just walk away from the entire European project, expecting that the rest of Europe will be just fine with that, defies credulity. A lot of people will be extremely angry at the disruption and chaos that would be caused, and in any Brexit negotiations even the UK's friends are set to be playing hardball.

Lots to chew on here, Cicero. The point is well made that it isn't just EU versus non-EU. The two are linked. So if it is more difficult to get EU staff to the UK than to other places in Europe, we won't be substituting non-EU staff. The business won't be here any more.

It's the same issue I was struggling with during the Scottish independence referendum. I don't get why highly intelligent people [like most of the contributors on this forum] don't realise that moving from a highly integrated system to no effective system at all will lead to a very nasty effect on the economy. I guess we all suffer from wishful thinking.

Pulpstar said:

Is anyone on here near NW8 ?

If so is it raining ?

Not raining in Covent Garden but it's pretty dark outside. Looks like rain is on the way:

http://www.netweather.tv/index.cgi?action=radar;sess=

Richard_Tyndall said:

PlatoSaid said:

weejonnie said:

Roger said:

Excellent article Tech Founder. Having read your very persuasive piece I'm interested to know why you haven't managed to persuade your chum and investor RCS 1000? Your case seems overwhelming.

I work in the service sector too and everyone is worried. Advertising in the UK is second only to the US and in terms of creativity probably above them. British agencies have a presence in nearly every country in the world.

What this vote is telling them -particularly as it's based on a quasi racist campaign-is very worrying indeed

I know - the Remainers are still pushing their Racist selection criteria for working in the EU. The Leavers want to make it aracist.

It's such a losers' argument - it's the exact opposite of the truth, but somehow they think name-calling us as racist xenophobic isolationists will work.

It's very NewSpeak. Global trade vs 28 is isolation, recruiting from everywhere is racist, looking to the whole world is xenophobic...

Yep. Clearly Tyson is a frustrated Imperialist who would have been far more at home in the 19th century when European powers were exporting their unique brand of civilisation to the ill educated masses around the world. Under his warped world view preferential treatment to 7% of the world's population who happen to be overwhelmingly white whilst keeping out the remaining 93% is enlightened.

I suspect Tyson's world view would be to let in more of the 93%, rather than restricting the 7%. But that will never happen. Instead, there will be more restrictions on everyone. It is very safe to say, I think, that when we leave the EU we will not see more immigration from non-EU countries. How could we when we are being promised a lower overall cap?

MP_SE said:

MattW said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Huge jump in Remain price - 1.53/1.54.

Presumably there's a poll out.

Boo.

And I levelled off my Leave position last night for safety.

Ah well, a good profit in the hand...

I added another grand to my Remain position over the weekend....

I'm all green, but not quite as green as I could have been. Laid off at 3.1

Off topic, the blanket Remain advertising is back in Canary Wharf this morning. This time, a slightly different tack: they are now flying the flag (union flag) and appealing to vote Remain to "keep Britain great".

My reading is that someone in Remain is recognising they need "heart" to compete with Leave, as well as what they think is head, and this is their attempt to engage it.

It will be interesting to see if this is the new line nationally over the next 10 days.

SouthamObserver said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

PlatoSaid said:

weejonnie said:

Roger said:

Excellent article Tech Founder. Having read your very persuasive piece I'm interested to know why you haven't managed to persuade your chum and investor RCS 1000? Your case seems overwhelming.

I work in the service sector too and everyone is worried. Advertising in the UK is second only to the US and in terms of creativity probably above them. British agencies have a presence in nearly every country in the world.

What this vote is telling them -particularly as it's based on a quasi racist campaign-is very worrying indeed

I know - the Remainers are still pushing their Racist selection criteria for working in the EU. The Leavers want to make it aracist.

It's such a losers' argument - it's the exact opposite of the truth, but somehow they think name-calling us as racist xenophobic isolationists will work.

It's very NewSpeak. Global trade vs 28 is isolation, recruiting from everywhere is racist, looking to the whole world is xenophobic...

Yep. Clearly Tyson is a frustrated Imperialist who would have been far more at home in the 19th century when European powers were exporting their unique brand of civilisation to the ill educated masses around the world. Under his warped world view preferential treatment to 7% of the world's population who happen to be overwhelmingly white whilst keeping out the remaining 93% is enlightened.

I suspect Tyson's world view would be to let in more of the 93%, rather than restricting the 7%. But that will never happen. Instead, there will be more restrictions on everyone. It is very safe to say, I think, that when we leave the EU we will not see more immigration from non-EU countries. How could we when we are being promised a lower overall cap?

The person who promised the cap will be long gone by then.

On the subject of Tyson please do remember this is the man who thinks that anyone whose views he finds distasteful by his own warped logic should not be allowed to vote. Who knows what goes on in that strange mind of his.

Philip_Thompson said:

Cicero said:

Well of course we did!!!!

As soon as it become clear that there was a real risk, all of the European Chambers spoke out- just because we were dismissed as just a another bunch or irrelevant "experts" does not make our warnings any the less. COBCOE and other umbrella organisations have spoken out in the strongest possible terms. We have no doubt: even the threat of Brexit is causing damage. A Brexit reality would be drastically more difficult for British business and British interests across Europe and around the world. All neutral research points out the economic damage - and frankly the majority of British business is furious that our clear concerns have been been dismissed out of hand by post truth politicians.

Dismiss these clear warnings as "project fear" all you like- but be in no doubt there will be a very large price to pay for a withdrawal from the EU. It really is even a risk to the system of collective security- as your previous threat to link NATO to EU negotiations makes crystal clear. The damage is being done today, now. Even after a Remain vote it will take some time to restore the image of Brand UK, and a Brexit will cost years and billions of Pounds before any recovery would come.

If the rest of the EU wanted us in then they should have given Cameron a much better "deal" than the incredibly weak one we were given.

You can't complain about someone walking away if they say to you "we need something different" and you effectively laugh in their face and dismiss them.

Cameron got virtually all he asked for. He was not laughed at- it was taken very seriously. The fact was that the negotiations were extremely tough. The idea that the UK was derided is a product of paranoia. Mostly the UK goes with the majority in the EU- up to 80% of the time, which is a higher percentage than most other states. Do you expect that it should be 100% of the time, and that no other national interests should be respected expect those of the UK?

Philip_Thompson said:

Cicero said:

Well of course we did!!!!

As soon as it become clear that there was a real risk, all of the European Chambers spoke out- just because we were dismissed as just a another bunch or irrelevant "experts" does not make our warnings any the less. COBCOE and other umbrella organisations have spoken out in the strongest possible terms. We have no doubt: even the threat of Brexit is causing damage. A Brexit reality would be drastically more difficult for British business and British interests across Europe and around the world. All neutral research points out the economic damage - and frankly the majority of British business is furious that our clear concerns have been been dismissed out of hand by post truth politicians.

Dismiss these clear warnings as "project fear" all you like- but be in no doubt there will be a very large price to pay for a withdrawal from the EU. It really is even a risk to the system of collective security- as your previous threat to link NATO to EU negotiations makes crystal clear. The damage is being done today, now. Even after a Remain vote it will take some time to restore the image of Brand UK, and a Brexit will cost years and billions of Pounds before any recovery would come.

If the rest of the EU wanted us in then they should have given Cameron a much better "deal" than the incredibly weak one we were given.

You can't complain about someone walking away if they say to you "we need something different" and you effectively laugh in their face and dismiss them.

Quite so. This shows the huge chasm in thinking between continental European business leaders and politicians, and that of the British electorate.

Which is another reason to Vote Leave and put our relationship on a more sustainable footing for both sides.

Cicero said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Cicero said:

Well of course we did!!!!

As soon as it become clear that there was a real risk, all of the European Chambers spoke out- just because we were dismissed as just a another bunch or irrelevant "experts" does not make our warnings any the less. COBCOE and other umbrella organisations have spoken out in the strongest possible terms. We have no doubt: even the threat of Brexit is causing damage. A Brexit reality would be drastically more difficult for British business and British interests across Europe and around the world. All neutral research points out the economic damage - and frankly the majority of British business is furious that our clear concerns have been been dismissed out of hand by post truth politicians.

Dismiss these clear warnings as "project fear" all you like- but be in no doubt there will be a very large price to pay for a withdrawal from the EU. It really is even a risk to the system of collective security- as your previous threat to link NATO to EU negotiations makes crystal clear. The damage is being done today, now. Even after a Remain vote it will take some time to restore the image of Brand UK, and a Brexit will cost years and billions of Pounds before any recovery would come.

If the rest of the EU wanted us in then they should have given Cameron a much better "deal" than the incredibly weak one we were given.

You can't complain about someone walking away if they say to you "we need something different" and you effectively laugh in their face and dismiss them.

Cameron got virtually all he asked for. He was not laughed at- it was taken very seriously. The fact was that the negotiations were extremely tough. The idea that the UK was derided is a product of paranoia. Mostly the UK goes with the majority in the EU- up to 80% of the time, which is a higher percentage than most other states. Do you expect that it should be 100% of the time, and that no other national interests should be respected expect those of the UK?

Cameron may have asked for a little more if he'd thought that there was the remotest chance that he'd have achieved it.

Cicero said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Cicero said:

Well of course we did!!!!

As soon as it become clear that there was a real risk, all of the European Chambers spoke out- just because we were dismissed as just a another bunch or irrelevant "experts" does not make our warnings any the less. COBCOE and other umbrella organisations have spoken out in the strongest possible terms. We have no doubt: even the threat of Brexit is causing damage. A Brexit reality would be drastically more difficult for British business and British interests across Europe and around the world. All neutral research points out the economic damage - and frankly the majority of British business is furious that our clear concerns have been been dismissed out of hand by post truth politicians.

Dismiss these clear warnings as "project fear" all you like- but be in no doubt there will be a very large price to pay for a withdrawal from the EU. It really is even a risk to the system of collective security- as your previous threat to link NATO to EU negotiations makes crystal clear. The damage is being done today, now. Even after a Remain vote it will take some time to restore the image of Brand UK, and a Brexit will cost years and billions of Pounds before any recovery would come.

If the rest of the EU wanted us in then they should have given Cameron a much better "deal" than the incredibly weak one we were given.

You can't complain about someone walking away if they say to you "we need something different" and you effectively laugh in their face and dismiss them.

Cameron got virtually all he asked for. He was not laughed at- it was taken very seriously. The fact was that the negotiations were extremely tough. The idea that the UK was derided is a product of paranoia. Mostly the UK goes with the majority in the EU- up to 80% of the time, which is a higher percentage than most other states. Do you expect that it should be 100% of the time, and that no other national interests should be respected expect those of the UK?

LOL. I never ceased to be amazed just how divorced from reality some of the Remainders are on here.

Cameron asked for almost nothing and got less.

And the EU loses more votes in Council than any other country in the EU. So your claim that we are in the majority more often than most other states is simply wrong.

Mr. Cicero, then what Cameron asked for was contemptible. His claims it was a great success have been widely mocked, as have many of his utterances since.

The upper echelon of British politics (or part of it) seem more interested in appeasing Brussels than acting in the interests of the UK electorate. It may actually be the case that the EU is only half the problem, and supine British politicians are the rest.

Either way, the electorate has, to a large extent, been less than impressed.

I still expect Remain to win, mind.

Edited extra bit: it appears the Skyrim remaster may be full-price, which would be taking the piss.

Pulpstar said:

The Orlando shooting is a real inkblot of all the US' problems percieved and real depending on your views:

Islamic terrorism spreading to the US.
Homegrown New York terrorist.
Lax gun control laws.
Homophobic attack.
Lone wolf attack.
"Inspired" by IS.
Insufficient help for a mentally unstable man.
Easy access to assault weapons for the mentally ill.

Agreed.

And I do think the Islamic-terror aspect in this case was a convenient added-extra for the sick bloke, who was probably driven first by homophobia and bitterness towards the West. I suspect it's easy to wind yourself up to fury when you then sprinkle your in-built prejudices with extremist Islamist literature. Linking it to ISIS then makes it an even bigger story, when in reality those in Syria, Libya and Iraq have probably had zero to do with it.

Re Owen Jones - and I'm not aiming to have a pop here. Why was he so riled by Julia Hartley-Brewer calling the murderer a 'lunatic'?

Roger said:

weejonnie said:

Roger said:

Excellent article Tech Founder. Having read your very persuasive piece I'm interested to know why you haven't managed to persuade your chum and investor RCS 1000? Your case seems overwhelming.

I work in the service sector too and everyone is worried. Advertising in the UK is second only to the US and in terms of creativity probably above them. British agencies have a presence in nearly every country in the world.

What this vote is telling them -particularly as it's based on a quasi racist campaign-is very worrying indeed

I know - the Remainers are still pushing their Racist selection criteria for working in the EU. The Leavers want to make it aracist.

I'm sure you might see it like that but if that's the case why are Leave running such an overtly racist campaign? Is the idea that once you're over the line you can discard that nonsense?

But the ARENT running a racist campaign - can't you get that through your thick skull.

Casino_Royale said:

SouthamObserver said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

PlatoSaid said:

weejonnie said:

Roger said:

Excellent article Tech Founder. Having read your very persuasive piece I'm interested to know why you haven't managed to persuade your chum and investor RCS 1000? Your case seems overwhelming.

I work in the service sector too and everyone is worried. Advertising in the UK is second only to the US and in terms of creativity probably above them. British agencies have a presence in nearly every country in the world.

What this vote is telling them -particularly as it's based on a quasi racist campaign-is very worrying indeed

I know - the Remainers are still pushing their Racist selection criteria for working in the EU. The Leavers want to make it aracist.

It's such a losers' argument - it's the exact opposite of the truth, but somehow they think name-calling us as racist xenophobic isolationists will work.

It's very NewSpeak. Global trade vs 28 is isolation, recruiting from everywhere is racist, looking to the whole world is xenophobic...

Yep. Clearly Tyson is a frustrated Imperialist who would have been far more at home in the 19th century when European powers were exporting their unique brand of civilisation to the ill educated masses around the world. Under his warped world view preferential treatment to 7% of the world's population who happen to be overwhelmingly white whilst keeping out the remaining 93% is enlightened.

I suspect Tyson's world view would be to let in more of the 93%, rather than restricting the 7%. But that will never happen. Instead, there will be more restrictions on everyone. It is very safe to say, I think, that when we leave the EU we will not see more immigration from non-EU countries. How could we when we are being promised a lower overall cap?

Don't expect you to agree, SO, but FWIW I would accept net immigration of high skilled labour from around the world at between 100k-200k per year (a bit higher than current Tory pledge) provided we planned and built the right infrastructure to accommodate it.

I see a net population increase of between 1-2 million every 10 years as just about manageable, in the long-term, but no more.

I believe in immigration that helps the economy, so I am not that focused on whether it is highly-skilled as long as it is productive. Net immigration targets are going to be a lot trickier post Brexit as we'll have fewer emigrants.

weejonnie said:

Roger said:

weejonnie said:

Roger said:

Excellent article Tech Founder. Having read your very persuasive piece I'm interested to know why you haven't managed to persuade your chum and investor RCS 1000? Your case seems overwhelming.

I work in the service sector too and everyone is worried. Advertising in the UK is second only to the US and in terms of creativity probably above them. British agencies have a presence in nearly every country in the world.

What this vote is telling them -particularly as it's based on a quasi racist campaign-is very worrying indeed

I know - the Remainers are still pushing their Racist selection criteria for working in the EU. The Leavers want to make it aracist.

I'm sure you might see it like that but if that's the case why are Leave running such an overtly racist campaign? Is the idea that once you're over the line you can discard that nonsense?

But the ARENT running a racist campaign - can't you get that through your thick skull.

Xenophobic yes, but, to be fair, it’s not racist. Some at least seem to hate all ‘furriners”!

Richard_Tyndall said:

SouthamObserver said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

PlatoSaid said:

weejonnie said:

Roger said:

Excellent article Tech Founder. Having read your very persuasive piece I'm interested to know why you haven't managed to persuade your chum and investor RCS 1000? Your case seems overwhelming.

I work in the service sector too and everyone is worried. Advertising in the UK is second only to the US and in terms of creativity probably above them. British agencies have a presence in nearly every country in the world.

What this vote is telling them -particularly as it's based on a quasi racist campaign-is very worrying indeed

I know - the Remainers are still pushing their Racist selection criteria for working in the EU. The Leavers want to make it aracist.

It's such a losers' argument - it's the exact opposite of the truth, but somehow they think name-calling us as racist xenophobic isolationists will work.

It's very NewSpeak. Global trade vs 28 is isolation, recruiting from everywhere is racist, looking to the whole world is xenophobic...

Yep. Clearly Tyson is a frustrated Imperialist who would have been far more at home in the 19th century when European powers were exporting their unique brand of civilisation to the ill educated masses around the world. Under his warped world view preferential treatment to 7% of the world's population who happen to be overwhelmingly white whilst keeping out the remaining 93% is enlightened.

I suspect Tyson's world view would be to let in more of the 93%, rather than restricting the 7%. But that will never happen. Instead, there will be more restrictions on everyone. It is very safe to say, I think, that when we leave the EU we will not see more immigration from non-EU countries. How could we when we are being promised a lower overall cap?

The person who promised the cap will be long gone by then.

On the subject of Tyson please do remember this is the man who thinks that anyone whose views he finds distasteful by his own warped logic should not be allowed to vote. Who knows what goes on in that strange mind of his.

Apart from some gentle digging at Plato or seanT I don't make ad hominem attacks here. Playing the ball rather than the man so to speak.

My point on disenfranchising Brexiters has really got under your skin. Actually, the most persuasive political text I have read is Plato's Republic. Democracy has on occasion proved to be quite catastrophic. Collectively, people can make some quite horrendous choices.

For the governance of Plato's Republic to work we need governors without ego, self interest, personal baggage, wealth, emotional connections to family etc...but who are highly intelligent.
Narcissists such as Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage, Donald Trump, Putin are the exact opposite of Plato's ideal governor.

weejonnie said:

Roger said:

weejonnie said:

Roger said:

Excellent article Tech Founder. Having read your very persuasive piece I'm interested to know why you haven't managed to persuade your chum and investor RCS 1000? Your case seems overwhelming.

I work in the service sector too and everyone is worried. Advertising in the UK is second only to the US and in terms of creativity probably above them. British agencies have a presence in nearly every country in the world.

What this vote is telling them -particularly as it's based on a quasi racist campaign-is very worrying indeed

I know - the Remainers are still pushing their Racist selection criteria for working in the EU. The Leavers want to make it aracist.

I'm sure you might see it like that but if that's the case why are Leave running such an overtly racist campaign? Is the idea that once you're over the line you can discard that nonsense?

But the ARENT running a racist campaign - can't you get that through your thick skull.

Hmmm incredibly xenophobic, bordering on racist. Thoroughly depressing on so many levels.

Those will be the proposed pensions changes considered by the EU and specifically abandoned.

tyson said:

Casino_Royale said:

SouthamObserver said:

CD13 said:

Ms Plato,

Thanks for the reference to the article. A lot of sense there. I was going to say "for a change" because most journalists are "lazy, drunken and ignorant." just as Guardian journalists are smug, arrogant, know-it-alls, as well.

Easy, isn't it? And a way to make yourself feel superior, which is why they do it themselves.

Owen Jones wrote a book about it called Chavs. Well worth a read.

It's written from the Left, and I think he misses some key points as a result, but I agree it's a good book and well worth a read.

Owen Jones is a naturally gifted polemicist. Much like Michael Moore, or Hitchens. I doubt ultimately, they believe everything they write, but that is the nature of polemics- it creates a debate.

Owen Jones identified a real issue: the widespread contempt that working class people provoke in this country across the political spectrum and their complete marginalisation. Brexit will be one of the consequences of that.

Casino_Royale said:

Off topic, the blanket Remain advertising is back in Canary Wharf this morning. This time, a slightly different tack: they are now flying the flag (union flag) and appealing to vote Remain to "keep Britain great".

My reading is that someone in Remain is recognising they need "heart" to compete with Leave, as well as what they think is head, and this is their attempt to engage it.

It will be interesting to see if this is the new line nationally over the next 10 days.

I hear they're going to start running with images of Canary Wharf in the early 1970s before Britain joined the EU.

"Don't Return to This" will be the slogan.