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So we're agreed £350 million is a lie.Richard_Tyndall said:
The actual amount he should be using as the base figure is £15 billion a year or £288 million a week.CarlottaVance said:
No we don't:kjohnw said:
But we do give £350million a week to the EUCarlottaVance said:
They have.asjohnstone said:
The only reason to change position at this stage for an mp is if new material facts have come to light which would have influenced her original decision. They haven't,CarlottaVance said:
No, she's switched because she says LEAVE are telling lies about the NHS:asjohnstone said:Wollaston changing sides is a farce. She seems to be saying she didn't make an informed decision on the facts at the start. For a member of the public that's fine, for an mp it's utterly unforgivable.
Dr Wollaston, chairman of the health select committee, said Vote Leave's claim that Brexit would free up £350m a week for the NHS "simply isn't true"......"For someone like me who has long campaigned for open and honest data in public life I could not have set foot on a battle bus that has at the heart of its campaign a figure that I know to be untrue."
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36485464
Vote Leave have persisted with their mendacious £350 million a week and are now suggesting it could all go on the NHS.
To campaign under that is to campaign under a false prospectus.....
Prof Ian Begg of the LSE notes, the rebate is deducted before any payment is made, so it is incorrect to say Britain “sends the EU £350m a week” – the Treasury actually remits just over £100m a week less.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/reality-check/2016/may/23/does-the-eu-really-cost-the-uk-350m-a-week
And that ignores funds that come back to the UK:
Deduct both the rebate (£4.9bn), which is never actually paid, and the money that is paid but sent back from the gross £17.8bn annual “membership fee” (£5.8bn), and you arrive at a net figure of £7.1bn. This equates to £136m a week, less than 40% of the amount splashed on the Vote Leave battlebus.
LEAVE Liars.....
Good.
And an unforced error too.
Foolish when its still what appears to be a huge number. Until you consider other things, like UK government spending.......0 -
I know how you feel, but, please, stay.PlatoSaid said:
Parochial is such a fabulously patronising term. The longer this campaign goes on, the more true colours are exposed.Mortimer said:Just reading the Times - apparently Hague has urged voters to look beyond their "parochial concerns".
Nice one Billy; how about you worry about your concerns and stop insisting that everyone else's are parochial just because they haven't worked at the Foreign Office.
It's certainly not going to be business-as-usual after 24th. I got my membership renewal papers yesterday. If Remain wins, I'm leaving.
We need your vote in the leadership contest to come.0 -
@wallaceme: I think she's wrong, but anyone suggesting @sarahwollaston was ordered to switch sides has clearly never previously heard of Sarah Wollaston0
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Re. Dr Woolaston,
She's been a loose cannon for years... The Posh Boys will be jumping for joy this morning but they would be wise to keep their distance because she turns on a six-pence and I'd guess she'll be lambasting the pair of them about something or other before the campaign is over....0 -
Yup. The They're All The Same Party.chestnut said:
There will certainly be a massive gap for a euro-sceptic and genuine EU reform party to move into.HYUFD said:
UKIP will get a big boost if Remain win narrowly preventing the next government having a majorityCD13 said:If Leave wins, everything is up in the air. The EU is in danger of splitting up. Things will change massively. But if Remain wins, things will also change massively. There is no status quo.
In five years time, we'll be reminded that we voted for closer integration and we'll be moving to political union. Turkey's application may well be looked on favourably. The Government of whatever ilk will point to this referendum as a defining moment.
The people have spoken, and they approve of what we are doing, no matter what Europe proposes. Don't you remember - all these changes were discussed before the referendum.
But we didn't agree to them? Well, you voted for it, end of argument. I won't be arguing, it is politics. I didn't know better in 1975, I do now.
As regards, Dr Wollaston ... a dignified and principled step down from Leave is reasonable, but I'm surprised she's gone directly to Remain. It doesn't have to be a binary choice. It does smack of politics too.
This referendum has killed the Tory brand on that.
A Tory promise on the EU and Migration is as valuable as a Lib Dem one on tuition fees.0 -
There is a difference between not wanting to join the Euro and wanting to leave the EU. Its perfectly possible to think the euro is a mistake but believe that, on balance, the EU is a good thing even if it needs plenty of reform.GIN1138 said:Did Mr "Parochial" Hague ever believe any of that "save the pound" and "I'll give you back your country" stuff from 97-01? Seems to me it was all an act because he'd got nothing else to say (because John Major had destroyed the Tories in 1992 when he presided over the house repossession meltdown across Middle England)
I can cope with people like Clarke and Heseltine who have never tried to hide their true beliefs. The real villains are people like Hague and Cameron who have spent decades pretending to be one thing and it turns out it was all a lie...
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Little England - As a side note I chuckled yesterday when reading a section from Call Me Dave when the Camerons were sitting down for dinner with a few political friends in about 2001. Sam was bemoaning William Hague's fascist rhetoric, in particular his referral to 'one nation.' Dave and others tried to explain that the term one nation was usually applied to the left of the conservative party. She still thought it sounded wrong and that most people wouldn't like it.
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If you are trying to troll me, you are failing.AlastairMeeks said:@Casino_Royale So you'll trust defectors in your direction but never trust defectors in the other direction, and you speak with confidence for the entire Conservative party.
A better example to use would be a hitherto solid Remainer, with a history of rebellion, like Heidi Allen.
In which case I would be very suspicious, yes.0 -
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A very large number are. 10% of UK medical staff are from the EU, and I would be surprised if the percentage of nursing staff is substantially different.tlg86 said:
And there is a good chance they are not from the EU..........TOPPING said:Good line of the morning is:
"If you meet a migrant in the NHS they are more likely to be treating you than ahead of you in the queue."
Dr S Wollaston
The single market means automatic recognition of specialist and registerable qualifications, while non-EU applicants have to leap through multiple hoops and often take 6 months to be legally appointable, even when visas are not an issue, such as Indian Doctors coming on spouse visas.
Most medical and nursing migrants come with the intention of working for a year or two before returning home with additional funds and skills, so freedom of movement smooths things over considerably. Many choose to stay longer or even permenantly, but typically see moving as a year out.0 -
@RaheemKassam: Journos chortling about the idea Cameron planted @sarahwollaston in Leave camp either totally thick or complicit @faisalislam @RobDotHuttonScott_P said:
And who says Brexiteers are swivel-eyed tinfoil hatters...Luckyguy1983 said:I would imagine Wollaston was a simple plant. A time bomb,
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Its been somewhat tainted by the slight similarity to the Nazi slogan, "Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer", so I can see the confusion.FrankBooth said:Little England - As a side note I chuckled yesterday when reading a section from Call Me Dave when the Camerons were sitting down for dinner with a few political friends in about 2001. Sam was bemoaning William Hague's fascist rhetoric, in particular his referral to 'one nation.' Dave and others tried to explain that the term one nation was usually applied to the left of the conservative party. She still thought it sounded wrong and that most people wouldn't like it.
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Stay for the leadership contest. Osborne as leader of the Tories is a truly horrifying thoughtPlatoSaid said:
Parochial is such a fabulously patronising term. The longer this campaign goes on, the more true colours are exposed.Mortimer said:Just reading the Times - apparently Hague has urged voters to look beyond their "parochial concerns".
Nice one Billy; how about you worry about your concerns and stop insisting that everyone else's are parochial just because they haven't worked at the Foreign Office.
It's certainly not going to be business-as-usual after 24th. I got my membership renewal papers yesterday. If Remain wins, I'm leaving.0 -
"Come with me and I'll give you back your country" implies more than just wanting to stop the UK joining the Euro, no?JonathanD said:
There is a difference between not wanting to join the Euro and wanting to leave the EU. Its perfectly possible to think the euro is a mistake but believe that, on balance, the EU is a good thing even if it needs plenty of reform.GIN1138 said:Did Mr "Parochial" Hague ever believe any of that "save the pound" and "I'll give you back your country" stuff from 97-01? Seems to me it was all an act because he'd got nothing else to say (because John Major had destroyed the Tories in 1992 when he presided over the house repossession meltdown across Middle England)
I can cope with people like Clarke and Heseltine who have never tried to hide their true beliefs. The real villains are people like Hague and Cameron who have spent decades pretending to be one thing and it turns out it was all a lie...
And what about the stuff about immigration? At one point he said people were right to be concerned about immigration... Now, when immigration is VASTLY higher than it was when he made that speech, he says it's "parochial" to be concerned about immigration?
Something doesn't add up. Either he was lying about his views when he was leader or he is lying now....0 -
Quite. The language and tactics are visceral stuff - no one who was a bit half hearted would swap sides, deploy insulting language or demean fellow Party members like this.GIN1138 said:Did Mr "Parochial" Hague ever believe any of that "save the pound" and "I'll give you back your country" stuff from 97-01? Seems to me it was all an act because he'd got nothing else to say (because John Major had destroyed the Tories in 1992 when he presided over the house repossession meltdown across Middle England)
I can cope with people like Clarke and Heseltine who have never tried to hide their true beliefs. The real villains are people like Hague and Cameron who have spent decades pretending to be one thing and it turns out it was all a lie...
Upthread someone mentioned that Woollaston was an Awkward Squadder - I think she's gone beyond that, she's in Team UnReliable. One can be awkward, and consistent. You can't chop and change and expect to be trusted.0 -
All those new bousing estates that have doubled the size of market towns in recent years are coming home to roost in a way that dosent show up in elections as the constituency boundaries have not caugbt up and tend to have much smaller urban than rural constituencies - Totnes exceptedSean_F said:
This is going down to the wire. They accept they can't win over Provincial England, so they must maximise turnout elsewhere.0 -
I have said all along the £350 million was an unsupportable claim and counter productive. In fact only yesterday I repeated that it should not be used.CarlottaVance said:
So we're agreed £350 million is a lie.Richard_Tyndall said:
The actual amount he should be using as the base figure is £15 billion a year or £288 million a week.CarlottaVance said:
No we don't:kjohnw said:
But we do give £350million a week to the EUCarlottaVance said:
They have.asjohnstone said:
The only reason to change position at this stage for an mp is if new material facts have come to light which would have influenced her original decision. They haven't,CarlottaVance said:
No, she's switched because she says LEAVE are telling lies about the NHS:asjohnstone said:Wollaston changing sides is a farce. She seems to be saying she didn't make an informed decision on the facts at the start. For a member of the public that's fine, for an mp it's utterly unforgivable.
Dr Wollaston, chairman of the health select committee, said Vote Leave's claim that Brexit would free up £350m a week for the NHS "simply isn't true"......"For someone like me who has long campaigned for open and honest data in public life I could not have set foot on a battle bus that has at the heart of its campaign a figure that I know to be untrue."
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36485464
Vote Leave have persisted with their mendacious £350 million a week and are now suggesting it could all go on the NHS.
To campaign under that is to campaign under a false prospectus.....
Prof Ian Begg of the LSE notes, the rebate is deducted before any payment is made, so it is incorrect to say Britain “sends the EU £350m a week” – the Treasury actually remits just over £100m a week less.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/reality-check/2016/may/23/does-the-eu-really-cost-the-uk-350m-a-week
And that ignores funds that come back to the UK:
Deduct both the rebate (£4.9bn), which is never actually paid, and the money that is paid but sent back from the gross £17.8bn annual “membership fee” (£5.8bn), and you arrive at a net figure of £7.1bn. This equates to £136m a week, less than 40% of the amount splashed on the Vote Leave battlebus.
LEAVE Liars.....
Good.
And an unforced error too.
Foolish when its still what appears to be a huge number. Until you consider other things, like UK government spending.......
That doesn't excuse you posting up even more extreme claims in the opposite direction. Rather than retaining the high ground you have simply joined a long list of people making dishonest claims.0 -
Anyway, I think Remainers have a point. Vote Leave have probably harvested the maximum (or near maximum) number of votes they can on open migration now.
They should spend the last two weeks painting the positive, open, optimistic picture of a global Britain, and a new golden age of friendly cooperation and colloboration in a world of self-governing liberal democracies, IMHO
Focus on the ABs.0 -
An easy remark. But our party cannot afford to lose activists and paying members, nor donors, nor ex Cabinet ministers. And most importantly, we can't afford to call our voters parochial or little englanders. It is the worst kind of metropolitanism.Scott_P said:
Toys - PramPlatoSaid said:I got my membership renewal papers yesterday. If Remain wins, I'm leaving.
We are an unpopular party in the main - just being more popular than Corbyn might be enough for you; it isn't for me - I'd like to see our party flourish.0 -
Isn't the Labour problem that they've got a queer combination of Hard Left leadership, very middle-class virtue signallers in positions of influence - and a lot of WC votes who are entirely disconnected from both.Sandpit said:
Yes please! (not for Labour, obviously).Patrick said:The Labour Party has been captured by the hard left. If they ever do choose a woman leader it's going to Diane Abbot or some such horror story.
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That is not how Brussels and Whitehall will see it.perdix said:If we vote for Remain it will not be for our further integration.
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Typical BBC Bias:
Sarah Wollaston is no fan of David Cameron - that's why her EU defection matters
http://www.itv.com/news/2016-06-09/sarah-wollaston-david-cameron-eu-referendum/0 -
this Scott n Paste stuff is FUN.
@OffencePolice
Sarah Woolaston says she disagrees with Roy Hodgson replacing Walcott with Rashford and therfore she will now be supporting France.0 -
Bloody hell. Looks like I'll be hitting the streets of Leeds with not one, but two members of the Benn family next week.0
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A problem many leavers have, particularly in thinking things will be hunky dory after a win, is they think remainers are not really remainers, just cowards. I'll bet that is so for some, but I think it is insulting to presume that is the majority. Javid and others declared for Remain, if they were to switch they should face the same analysis and potential ridicule, not given a pass because they never meant it in the first place.Casino_Royale said:
Yes, it would be because he's always been a Leaver (and leaked private correspondence shows this) but Osborne got to him, and I think he hates himself for it.AlastairMeeks said:
I have a feeling that your reaction might be different if, say, Sajid Javid had defected to Leave.Casino_Royale said:
No, by anyone in the Tory Party.kle4 said:
By you. Whether her voters will accept her justification for changing position remains to be seen, but at the least has a better chance than with the wider party.Casino_Royale said:
No. She will never be trusted again.Jobabob said:Dr Sarah Wollaston mentioned possible further defections in her interview with LauraK last night. Presumably some of the more reasonable Leavers are starting to feel uncomfortable with the Faragist Little Englander tone of the campaign that has been allowed to take hold since the Turkey poster debacle.
That said, she also suggested there could be defections the other way. Be interesting to watch what happens.
Re: her motives. Watch the interview. She is very frank and honest about how the campaign has changed her mind. She comes across very well. I could imagine her as a major electoral asset for the Tories - intelligent, thoughtful and centrist.
I was always nervous about Sarah Wollaston.0 -
I'd like to second those sentiments. I get very pissed off at David Cameron branding me as someone who would bring about Nigel Farage's Little England. I have fought hard against UKIP at local level. I have yet to see how a man who was beaten in the race for the official Leave grouping and only leads a party of one - a one at that who is far removed from Nigel Farage - is going to bring about anything. It is as lazy and offensive as labelling all Remain as being George Osborne's Greater Europeans.Mortimer said:
An easy remark. But our party cannot afford to lose activists and paying members, nor donors, nor ex Cabinet ministers. And most importantly, we can't afford to call our voters parochial or little englanders. It is the worst kind of metropolitanism.Scott_P said:
Toys - PramPlatoSaid said:I got my membership renewal papers yesterday. If Remain wins, I'm leaving.
We are an unpopular party in the main - just being more popular than Corbyn might be enough for you; it isn't for me - I'd like to see our party flourish.0 -
You do. Incessantly.Scott_P said:
And who says Brexiteers are swivel-eyed tinfoil hatters...Luckyguy1983 said:I would imagine Wollaston was a simple plant. A time bomb,
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Good morning all. Not so.Scott_P said:
Toys - PramPlatoSaid said:I got my membership renewal papers yesterday. If Remain wins, I'm leaving.
Thus far, my own (in the sense that I'm a life long Tory voter) party has told me I'm xenephobic (as others have said, this is the new 'racist', with the 'phobic' added to make it doubly irrational), parochial (thanks Hague, you multi-millionaire you) and stupid. Hmm. Who shall I vote for next time?
I've said all along that remain will win. But Cameron should look up the meaning of 'Pyrrhic victory'.0 -
GIN1138 said:
"Come with me and I'll give you back your country" implies more than just wanting to stop the UK joining the Euro, no?JonathanD said:
There is a difference between not wanting to join the Euro and wanting to leave the EU. Its perfectly possible to think the euro is a mistake but believe that, on balance, the EU is a good thing even if it needs plenty of reform.GIN1138 said:Did Mr "Parochial" Hague ever believe any of that "save the pound" and "I'll give you back your country" stuff from 97-01? Seems to me it was all an act because he'd got nothing else to say (because John Major had destroyed the Tories in 1992 when he presided over the house repossession meltdown across Middle England)
I can cope with people like Clarke and Heseltine who have never tried to hide their true beliefs. The real villains are people like Hague and Cameron who have spent decades pretending to be one thing and it turns out it was all a lie...
And what about the stuff about immigration? At one point he said people were right to be concerned abotu immigration... Now, when immigration is VASTLY higher than it was when he made that speech, he says it's "parochial" to be concerned about immigration.
Something doesn't add up. Either he was lying about his views when he was leader or he is lying now....
I think its just that the argument over the EU is nuanced and balanced and can't be decided simply by one or two slogans. Yes immigration is too high but again, he might believe that the wider benefits of being in the EU outweigh the negatives of immigration. It doesn't mean he is being duplicitous, it just means that the world is a complicated place and we can't arrange it exactly as we want.
Also the current jump in immigration is probably a short term phenomena caused by a slow growing EU displacing workers to us and a reduction in UK citizens working abroad. If this trend reverses in the next few years it would be stupid to lose the benefits of the EU just to deal with a short term problem.
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Because, somehow, she was convinced by Remain's campaign, not merely put off by Leave's. It's a funny line there, but it isn't directly applicable.TGOHF said:Koomoonity Leader @MavisStott 38m38 minutes ago
But why didn't @sarahwollaston stay and try to change #VoteLeave from within... ?
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I'm astonished that up to 50-55% of the population are considering it to be honest.Richard_Tyndall said:
His negotiation is meaningless and toothless. What it says is neither here nor there. Further integration is what you are signing up to if we vote Remain. There is nothing else on offer.perdix said:
Any western EU government voting to approve Turkey's membership will be slaughtered at the polls. The French will require a referendum.ThreeQuidder said:
Quite.CD13 said:If Leave wins, everything is up in the air. The EU is in danger of splitting up. Things will change massively. But if Remain wins, things will also change massively. There is no status quo.
In five years time, we'll be reminded that we voted for closer integration and we'll be moving to political union. Turkey's application may well be looked on favourably. The Government of whatever ilk will point to this referendum as a defining moment.
The people have spoken, and they approve of what we are doing, no matter what Europe proposes. Don't you remember - all these changes were discussed before the referendum.
But we didn't agree to them? Well, you voted for it, end of argument. I won't be arguing, it is politics. I didn't know better in 1975, I do now.
Which is why the government, if it gets a Remain vote, has to be honest for the first time and openly say: this is where the EU is going. And then negotiate terms to join the euro and Schengen - and put them to the people for ratification.
If we vote for Remain it will not be for our further integration. That is the opposite of what Cameron laid out in his negotiation. We don't want any more politicians or political activists reading more into it than is justified.0 -
What is it about Tory primaries?
First Kelly Tollhurst, then Sarah Woollaston.
I used to be in favour of them, but now I think the personal vote just leads to ego intoxication.0 -
Just goes to show how far you have sold out.TheScreamingEagles said:Bloody hell. Looks like I'll be hitting the streets of Leeds with not one, but two members of the Benn family next week.
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Lol!TGOHF said:this Scott n Paste stuff is FUN.
@OffencePolice
Sarah Woolaston says she disagrees with Roy Hodgson replacing Walcott with Rashford and therfore she will now be supporting France.0 -
Disagree entirely I'm afraid CR.Casino_Royale said:Anyway, I think Remainers have a point. Vote Leave have probably harvested the maximum (or near maximum) number of votes they can on open migration now.
They should spend the last two weeks painting the positive, open, optimistic picture of a global Britain, and a new golden age of friendly cooperation and colloboration in a world of self-governing liberal democracies, IMHO
Focus on the ABs.
Remain are trying to change our strategy because they see that it is working. They wouldn't be interrupting us if it was a mistake.
All the ABs who are going to vote Leave are already persuaded. All that is needed to diffuse these false attacks from GO and DC is a few lines from BoJo along the lines of 'if it Rascist to want higher wages and better access to services, then almost everyone on the planet is'. This is not a general election where targeting will work. Building a broad coalition means we need to ensure that the working class voters who would be most helped by higher wages vote for us.
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Remain up to 77%. The power of Dr Wollaston and Osborne's interview with Andrew Neil?0
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Me too.VapidBilge said:What is it about Tory primaries?
First Kelly Tollhurst, then Sarah Woollaston.
I used to be in favour of them, but now I think the personal vote just leads to ego intoxication.0 -
It certainly seems to lead to a greater separation from the party they nominally stand to represent. Not sure you can read much more than that from a sample of two.VapidBilge said:What is it about Tory primaries?
First Kelly Tollhurst, then Sarah Woollaston.
I used to be in favour of them, but now I think the personal vote just leads to ego intoxication.0 -
Yeah but if he was alive you'd be on the same side as Tony Benn.Richard_Tyndall said:
Just goes to show how far you have sold out.TheScreamingEagles said:Bloody hell. Looks like I'll be hitting the streets of Leeds with not one, but two members of the Benn family next week.
These are strange times.0 -
Totally agree with you, but everyone knows what Javid really thinks on the EU. It's an open secret. I don't think the same with Hammond and Hunt.kle4 said:
A problem many leavers have, particularly in thinking things will be hunky dory after a win, is they think remainers are not really remainers, just cowards. I'll bet that is so for some, but I think it is insulting to presume that is the majority. Javid and others declared for Remain, if they were to switch they should face the same analysis and potential ridicule, not given a pass because they never meant it in the first place.Casino_Royale said:
Yes, it would be because he's always been a Leaver (and leaked private correspondence shows this) but Osborne got to him, and I think he hates himself for it.AlastairMeeks said:
I have a feeling that your reaction might be different if, say, Sajid Javid had defected to Leave.Casino_Royale said:
No, by anyone in the Tory Party.kle4 said:
By you. Whether her voters will accept her justification for changing position remains to be seen, but at the least has a better chance than with the wider party.Casino_Royale said:
No. She will never be trusted again.Jobabob said:Dr Sarah Wollaston mentioned possible further defections in her interview with LauraK last night. Presumably some of the more reasonable Leavers are starting to feel uncomfortable with the Faragist Little Englander tone of the campaign that has been allowed to take hold since the Turkey poster debacle.
That said, she also suggested there could be defections the other way. Be interesting to watch what happens.
Re: her motives. Watch the interview. She is very frank and honest about how the campaign has changed her mind. She comes across very well. I could imagine her as a major electoral asset for the Tories - intelligent, thoughtful and centrist.
I was always nervous about Sarah Wollaston.
On the other hand, I think Theresa May is genuinely ambivalent (but would have got a much better deal than Cameron, IMHO) and I think it's pretty clear that Liz Truss was just positioning.
Shock you: i actually think Osborne is more ideologically europhile than Cameron too.0 -
LOL!John_M said:
Good morning all. Not so.Scott_P said:
Toys - PramPlatoSaid said:I got my membership renewal papers yesterday. If Remain wins, I'm leaving.
Thus far, my own (in the sense that I'm a life long Tory voter) party has told me I'm xenephobic (as others have said, this is the new 'racist', with the 'phobic' added to make it doubly irrational), parochial (thanks Hague, you multi-millionaire you) and stupid. Hmm. Who shall I vote for next time?
I've said all along that remain will win. But Cameron should look up the meaning of 'Pyrrhic victory'.
Cameron doesn't care that he's destroyed his party with all this stuff because he'll be off soon enough but it's his successor who will somehow have to pick up the pieces.
I'll not be voting Con anytime soon that is for sure.
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I would agree, though I would value competence higher than most in the selectorate. I think Jezza fails on the competence criteria more than any other. McDonnell has really impressed me, and also has made real efforts to build bridges. Last week he and Liz Kendall were sharing a platform for Labour In in Leicester, and both seemed surprisingly comfortable about it.NickPalmer said:
It's more complicated than that (apart from the fact that I don't agree with your description). Diane came a long way behind Khan and Jowell in the London selection, which was made by just the same London membership that voted massively for Corbyn. The membership is predominantly left-wing, but also likes winning. Where the non-leftie candidates are not putting a coherent case (and I don't think many people seriously argue that Corbyn's rivals did), they opt for the leftie. Where the non-leftie puts a case together then it gets serious consideration.Patrick said:The Labour Party has been captured by the hard left. If they ever do choose a woman leader it's going to Diane Abbot or some such horror story.
Leaving Iraq aside, lots of members including me supported Blair while he was doing what we felt was good stuff - refinancing health, doing the Northern Ireland deal, introducing the minimum wage, improving social legislation, etc. It wasn't that we had suddenly turned into semi-Tories, but we felt there was a useful agenda here which was worth pursuing for the moment. Khan was selected on much the same basis, and there are plenty of left-wing members who will go for that kind of option when it's on offer. What we won't do is settle for vague slogans adding up to nothing in particular.
Labour has a revolutionary element, and there always seems to be an overreaction to whatever the previous leadership has done wrong. Jezza won because he was untainted by being part of the frontbench on the losing team in 2015, and offered a coherent critique of New Labour. Ed beat his brother by being less Blairite, Blair won by being the culmination of the reaction to Militantism, Foot won by an overreaction to Wilson/Callaghan/Healey failures etc.
I think the next Leader will be someone from 2010 or 2015 for this reason, and I think faction matters less to the selectorate than a coherent policy platform that can build enthusiasm and popular support. That may well be an overreaction once more - this time to Corbynism!0 -
I am really not sure they are. With the exception of the few fanatical Cameroons I think most people even on the Remain side know his renegotiation was meaningless. There are many reasons people might be voting Remain (just as there are for Leave) but I doubt happiness with Cameron's non negotiation is one of them.Casino_Royale said:
I'm astonished that up to 50-55% of the population are considering it to be honest.Richard_Tyndall said:
His negotiation is meaningless and toothless. What it says is neither here nor there. Further integration is what you are signing up to if we vote Remain. There is nothing else on offer.perdix said:
Any western EU government voting to approve Turkey's membership will be slaughtered at the polls. The French will require a referendum.ThreeQuidder said:
Quite.CD13 said:If Leave wins, everything is up in the air. The EU is in danger of splitting up. Things will change massively. But if Remain wins, things will also change massively. There is no status quo.
In five years time, we'll be reminded that we voted for closer integration and we'll be moving to political union. Turkey's application may well be looked on favourably. The Government of whatever ilk will point to this referendum as a defining moment.
The people have spoken, and they approve of what we are doing, no matter what Europe proposes. Don't you remember - all these changes were discussed before the referendum.
But we didn't agree to them? Well, you voted for it, end of argument. I won't be arguing, it is politics. I didn't know better in 1975, I do now.
Which is why the government, if it gets a Remain vote, has to be honest for the first time and openly say: this is where the EU is going. And then negotiate terms to join the euro and Schengen - and put them to the people for ratification.
If we vote for Remain it will not be for our further integration. That is the opposite of what Cameron laid out in his negotiation. We don't want any more politicians or political activists reading more into it than is justified.0 -
Also - I am not sure can draw the same conclusion from primaries which were the exception compared to if they were the rule.MarqueeMark said:
It certainly seems to lead to a greater separation from the party they nominally stand to represent. Not sure you can read much more than that from a sample of two.VapidBilge said:What is it about Tory primaries?
First Kelly Tollhurst, then Sarah Woollaston.
I used to be in favour of them, but now I think the personal vote just leads to ego intoxication.0 -
Absolutely, watching your rivals tactics is the most useful thing one can do. Sending Blair and Major to NI to put the frighteners on today is a good example.Mortimer said:
Disagree entirely I'm afraid CR.Casino_Royale said:Anyway, I think Remainers have a point. Vote Leave have probably harvested the maximum (or near maximum) number of votes they can on open migration now.
They should spend the last two weeks painting the positive, open, optimistic picture of a global Britain, and a new golden age of friendly cooperation and colloboration in a world of self-governing liberal democracies, IMHO
Focus on the ABs.
Remain are trying to change our strategy because they see that it is working. They wouldn't be interrupting us if it was a mistake.
All the ABs who are going to vote Leave are already persuaded. All that is needed to diffuse these false attacks from GO and DC is a few lines from BoJo along the lines of 'if it Rascist to want higher wages and better access to services, then almost everyone on the planet is'. This is not a general election where targeting will work. Building a broad coalition means we need to ensure that the working class voters who would be most helped by higher wages vote for us.
As Casino noted - wall to wall Remain ads in the City. If Leave wasn't winning on immigration - Remain wouldn't be smearing Farage and name calling the rest of us parochial. They're scared.
0 -
Well since I am not a Tory your point is..... pointless. I would be very pleased to be on the same side as Benn (senior) on many issues, not just the EU.TheScreamingEagles said:
Yeah but if he was alive you'd be on the same side as Tony Benn.Richard_Tyndall said:
Just goes to show how far you have sold out.TheScreamingEagles said:Bloody hell. Looks like I'll be hitting the streets of Leeds with not one, but two members of the Benn family next week.
These are strange times.
You on the other hand have sold out. Even you know it.0 -
Unless you're an idiot, nothing short of 60 v 40 is comfortable, though.PlatoSaid said:
Absolutely, watching your rivals tactics is the most useful thing one can do. Sending Blair and Major to NI to put the frighteners on today is a good example.Mortimer said:
Disagree entirely I'm afraid CR.Casino_Royale said:Anyway, I think Remainers have a point. Vote Leave have probably harvested the maximum (or near maximum) number of votes they can on open migration now.
They should spend the last two weeks painting the positive, open, optimistic picture of a global Britain, and a new golden age of friendly cooperation and colloboration in a world of self-governing liberal democracies, IMHO
Focus on the ABs.
Remain are trying to change our strategy because they see that it is working. They wouldn't be interrupting us if it was a mistake.
All the ABs who are going to vote Leave are already persuaded. All that is needed to diffuse these false attacks from GO and DC is a few lines from BoJo along the lines of 'if it Rascist to want higher wages and better access to services, then almost everyone on the planet is'. This is not a general election where targeting will work. Building a broad coalition means we need to ensure that the working class voters who would be most helped by higher wages vote for us.
As Casino noted - wall to wall Remain ads in the City. If Leave wasn't winning on immigration - Remain wouldn't be smearing Farage and name calling the rest of us parochial. They're scared.0 -
Group Think. This is a very, very tight contest in which Leave has the best, most accessible line: immigration controls.TheScreamingEagles said:Remain up to 77%. The power of Dr Wollaston and Osborne's interview with Andrew Neil?
0 -
I'm putting the county first. Country before party.Richard_Tyndall said:
Well since I am not a Tory your point is..... pointless. I would be very pleased to be on the same side as Benn (senior) on many issues, not just the EU.TheScreamingEagles said:
Yeah but if he was alive you'd be on the same side as Tony Benn.Richard_Tyndall said:
Just goes to show how far you have sold out.TheScreamingEagles said:Bloody hell. Looks like I'll be hitting the streets of Leeds with not one, but two members of the Benn family next week.
These are strange times.
You on the other hand have sold out. Even you know it.0 -
The former, I think.TheScreamingEagles said:Remain up to 77%. The power of Dr Wollaston and Osborne's interview with Andrew Neil?
0 -
But PB Leavers told me the Ozzy interview was the greatest disaster since the Hindenburg.weejonnie said:
The former, I think.TheScreamingEagles said:Remain up to 77%. The power of Dr Wollaston and Osborne's interview with Andrew Neil?
Has only been an upward trend since.0 -
No, you're putting saving Cameron and Osborne's career's/reputations first...TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm putting the county first. Country before party.Richard_Tyndall said:
Well since I am not a Tory your point is..... pointless. I would be very pleased to be on the same side as Benn (senior) on many issues, not just the EU.TheScreamingEagles said:
Yeah but if he was alive you'd be on the same side as Tony Benn.Richard_Tyndall said:
Just goes to show how far you have sold out.TheScreamingEagles said:Bloody hell. Looks like I'll be hitting the streets of Leeds with not one, but two members of the Benn family next week.
These are strange times.
You on the other hand have sold out. Even you know it.0 -
Betfair was right last year on the Tories winning the most seats. They just misunderestimated the awesomeness of Dave and George.SouthamObserver said:
Group Think. This is a very, very tight contest in which Leave has the best, most accessible line: immigration controls.TheScreamingEagles said:Remain up to 77%. The power of Dr Wollaston and Osborne's interview with Andrew Neil?
0 -
Yes. Whereas Cameron presented a slightly more balanced approah conceding a little ground on the problems of the Eu, Osborne was defiantly pro-EU. Twisting every fact to be a reason for REMAIN.Casino_Royale said:
Shock you: i actually think Osborne is more ideologically europhile than Cameron too.kle4 said:
A problem many leavers have, particularly in thinking things will be hunky dory after a win, is they think remainers are not really remainers, just cowards. I'll bet that is so for some, but I think it is insulting to presume that is the majority. Javid and others declared for Remain, if they were to switch they should face the same analysis and potential ridicule, not given a pass because they never meant it in the first place.Casino_Royale said:
Yes, it would be because he's always been a Leaver (and leaked private correspondence shows this) but Osborne got to him, and I think he hates himself for it.AlastairMeeks said:
I have a feeling that your reaction might be different if, say, Sajid Javid had defected to Leave.Casino_Royale said:
No, by anyone in the Tory Party.kle4 said:
By you. Whether her voters will accept her justification for changing position remains to be seen, but at the least has a better chance than with the wider party.Casino_Royale said:
No. She will never be trusted again.Jobabob said:Dr Sarah Wollaston mentioned possible further defections in her interview with LauraK last night. Presumably some of the more reasonable Leavers are starting to feel uncomfortable with the Faragist Little Englander tone of the campaign that has been allowed to take hold since the Turkey poster debacle.
That said, she also suggested there could be defections the other way. Be interesting to watch what happens.
Re: her motives. Watch the interview. She is very frank and honest about how the campaign has changed her mind. She comes across very well. I could imagine her as a major electoral asset for the Tories - intelligent, thoughtful and centrist.
I was always nervous about Sarah Wollaston.
0 -
The country of Europe?TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm putting the county first. Country before party.Richard_Tyndall said:
Well since I am not a Tory your point is..... pointless. I would be very pleased to be on the same side as Benn (senior) on many issues, not just the EU.TheScreamingEagles said:
Yeah but if he was alive you'd be on the same side as Tony Benn.Richard_Tyndall said:
Just goes to show how far you have sold out.TheScreamingEagles said:Bloody hell. Looks like I'll be hitting the streets of Leeds with not one, but two members of the Benn family next week.
These are strange times.
You on the other hand have sold out. Even you know it.0 -
Remain continues to tighten. Is there a poll in the offing?0
-
Le Royaume-UniThreeQuidder said:
The country of Europe?TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm putting the county first. Country before party.Richard_Tyndall said:
Well since I am not a Tory your point is..... pointless. I would be very pleased to be on the same side as Benn (senior) on many issues, not just the EU.TheScreamingEagles said:
Yeah but if he was alive you'd be on the same side as Tony Benn.Richard_Tyndall said:
Just goes to show how far you have sold out.TheScreamingEagles said:Bloody hell. Looks like I'll be hitting the streets of Leeds with not one, but two members of the Benn family next week.
These are strange times.
You on the other hand have sold out. Even you know it.0 -
I simply don't understand the markets. Apart from wishful thinking, nothing is pointing to an overwhelming Remain win.SouthamObserver said:
Group Think. This is a very, very tight contest in which Leave has the best, most accessible line: immigration controls.TheScreamingEagles said:Remain up to 77%. The power of Dr Wollaston and Osborne's interview with Andrew Neil?
The last time I didn't understand the markets was 2015.0 -
I think that Cameron was bounced into the referendum six-twelve months too early to have a proper renegotiation, and have that signed off by the various EU bodies.Richard_Tyndall said:
I am really not sure they are. With the exception of the few fanatical Cameroons I think most people even on the Remain side know his renegotiation was meaningless. There are many reasons people might be voting Remain (just as there are for Leave) but I doubt happiness with Cameron's non negotiation is one of them.Casino_Royale said:
I'm astonished that up to 50-55% of the population are considering it to be honest.Richard_Tyndall said:
His negotiation is meaningless and toothless. What it says is neither here nor there. Further integration is what you are signing up to if we vote Remain. There is nothing else on offer.perdix said:
Any western EU government voting to approve Turkey's membership will be slaughtered at the polls. The French will require a referendum.ThreeQuidder said:
Quite.CD13 said:If Leave wins, everything is up in the air. The EU is in danger of splitting up. Things will change massively. But if Remain wins, things will also change massively. There is no status quo.
In five years time, we'll be reminded that we voted for closer integration and we'll be moving to political union. Turkey's application may well be looked on favourably. The Government of whatever ilk will point to this referendum as a defining moment.
The people have spoken, and they approve of what we are doing, no matter what Europe proposes. Don't you remember - all these changes were discussed before the referendum.
But we didn't agree to them? Well, you voted for it, end of argument. I won't be arguing, it is politics. I didn't know better in 1975, I do now.
Which is why the government, if it gets a Remain vote, has to be honest for the first time and openly say: this is where the EU is going. And then negotiate terms to join the euro and Schengen - and put them to the people for ratification.
If we vote for Remain it will not be for our further integration. That is the opposite of what Cameron laid out in his negotiation. We don't want any more politicians or political activists reading more into it than is justified.
As a result it just muddies the waters, when really the referendum is "existing terms" vs "completely out" and always should have been. Virtually all the Remainers that I know are campaigning on existing terms rather than the renegotiation.0 -
The next poll I've had confirmed is Ipsos Mori, that comes out next Wednesday.AlastairMeeks said:Remain continues to tighten. Is there a poll in the offing?
0 -
Why isn't the membership demanding more of Corbyn? Putting aside all the baggage, his leadership is abysmal and his choice of advisers is even worse. What has happened is that you have taken sides in a battle and protecting Corbyn - whatever the cost to Labour - has become more important than anything else.NickPalmer said:
It's more complicated than that (apart from the fact that I don't agree with your description). Diane came a long way behind Khan and Jowell in the London selection, which was made by just the same London membership that voted massively for Corbyn. The membership is predominantly left-wing, but also likes winning. Where the non-leftie candidates are not putting a coherent case (and I don't think many people seriously argue that Corbyn's rivals did), they opt for the leftie. Where the non-leftie puts a case together then it gets serious consideration.Patrick said:The Labour Party has been captured by the hard left. If they ever do choose a woman leader it's going to Diane Abbot or some such horror story.
Leaving Iraq aside, lots of members including me supported Blair while he was doing what we felt was good stuff - refinancing health, doing the Northern Ireland deal, introducing the minimum wage, improving social legislation, etc. It wasn't that we had suddenly turned into semi-Tories, but we felt there was a useful agenda here which was worth pursuing for the moment. Khan was selected on much the same basis, and there are plenty of left-wing members who will go for that kind of option when it's on offer. What we won't do is settle for vague slogans adding up to nothing in particular.0 -
You mean the thirteen regions?TheScreamingEagles said:
Le Royaume-UniThreeQuidder said:
The country of Europe?TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm putting the county first. Country before party.Richard_Tyndall said:
Well since I am not a Tory your point is..... pointless. I would be very pleased to be on the same side as Benn (senior) on many issues, not just the EU.TheScreamingEagles said:
Yeah but if he was alive you'd be on the same side as Tony Benn.Richard_Tyndall said:
Just goes to show how far you have sold out.TheScreamingEagles said:Bloody hell. Looks like I'll be hitting the streets of Leeds with not one, but two members of the Benn family next week.
These are strange times.
You on the other hand have sold out. Even you know it.0 -
The phone polls are, bar ICMMortimer said:
I simply don't understand the markets. Apart from wishful thinking, nothing is pointing to an overwhelming Remain win.SouthamObserver said:
Group Think. This is a very, very tight contest in which Leave has the best, most accessible line: immigration controls.TheScreamingEagles said:Remain up to 77%. The power of Dr Wollaston and Osborne's interview with Andrew Neil?
The last time I didn't understand the markets was 2015.0 -
As a not particularly cynical politician I'm surprised how much people have taken at face value past campaigns by political leaders and their media allies. Of course Hague didn't believe it exactly, any more than Labour actually thought that the Tories would completely abolish the NHS. I remember the Mail saying that if we didn't elect Hague as PM, all future elections would be meaningless. A few years later, they were getting stuck into the next election, as per usual. British politics has a tradition of OTT rhetoric, which is normally defended here as "robust debate" and the like.GIN1138 said:Did Mr "Parochial" Hague ever believe any of that "save the pound" and "I'll give you back your country" stuff from 97-01? Seems to me it was all an act because he'd got nothing else to say (because John Major had destroyed the Tories in 1992 when he presided over the house repossession meltdown across Middle England)
I can cope with people like Clarke and Heseltine who have never tried to hide their true beliefs. The real villains are people like Hague and Cameron who have spent decades pretending to be one thing and it turns out it was all a lie...
Politicians like Corbyn and Letwin (and, to be fair, Blair and Major most of the time) who simply say what they think without embellishment or concern about the consequences are very rare and neither the media nor Parliamentary colleagues are comfortable with it. Personally I like it - obviously doesn't mean you agree with it all and sometimes you may think they've talked theemselves into it (certainly the case with Blair), but at least you've got a basis for rational discussion. With someone spouting slogans that he clearly doesn't believe, what's the point in discussing them?
0 -
On topic - I think it's a very curious thing that the left has struggled to produce female leaders. Surely 40 years ago it would have been seen as a near certainty. I'm not sure any of the prominent Labour women are likely to have widespread appeal. Eagle was quite good when I saw her at PMQs but her voice is a weakness. As for Nandy, I could see her being acceptable to the soft left but would she appeal to the aspirational (i.e most of the electorate)?0
-
Can't agree with you there.MarqueeMark said:
It certainly seems to lead to a greater separation from the party they nominally stand to represent. Not sure you can read much more than that from a sample of two.VapidBilge said:What is it about Tory primaries?
First Kelly Tollhurst, then Sarah Woollaston.
I used to be in favour of them, but now I think the personal vote just leads to ego intoxication.
They seem very close to the leadership, but miles distant from their constituency membership.
Nope, egotism it is.0 -
So the Posh Boys have been smearing the English as "Little Englander's" and then tonight Nicola is going to go an telly to lecture and patronize the English.
Should be interesting....0 -
Good moaning all. You know what? This referendum lark is getting more than a touch boring.0
-
ThreeQuidder said:
That is not how Brussels and Whitehall will see it.perdix said:If we vote for Remain it will not be for our further integration.
I think the dangers for Leave on focusing too much on immigration are twofold. Firstly it makes your campaign one dimensional and very negative, which is what you're accusing Remain of being. Secondly voter fatigue. After a while immigration figures and statistics become a blur to the man on the street and 3 or 4 weeks of the same thing take away the shock element. Those who are going to vote on that issue have already decided.Mortimer said:
Disagree entirely I'm afraid CR.Casino_Royale said:Anyway, I think Remainers have a point. Vote Leave have probably harvested the maximum (or near maximum) number of votes they can on open migration now.
They should spend the last two weeks painting the positive, open, optimistic picture of a global Britain, and a new golden age of friendly cooperation and colloboration in a world of self-governing liberal democracies, IMHO
Focus on the ABs.
Remain are trying to change our strategy because they see that it is working. They wouldn't be interrupting us if it was a mistake.
All the ABs who are going to vote Leave are already persuaded. All that is needed to diffuse these false attacks from GO and DC is a few lines from BoJo along the lines of 'if it Rascist to want higher wages and better access to services, then almost everyone on the planet is'. This is not a general election where targeting will work. Building a broad coalition means we need to ensure that the working class voters who would be most helped by higher wages vote for us.
That said it's the best weapon you have by far so I'd use it in the last 3 or 4 days. In the meantime address people's economic concerns and give us a coherent plan for the future rather than the vague notion of sunny uplands which seems to be the case now.
People on middle incomes with mortgages might agree there's too much immigration but they are going to worry a lot more about having less money.0 -
do you not think this attack on leaves NHS figures will stop their chances of winning as the NHS is sacrosanct in the eyes of the public?SouthamObserver said:
Group Think. This is a very, very tight contest in which Leave has the best, most accessible line: immigration controls.TheScreamingEagles said:Remain up to 77%. The power of Dr Wollaston and Osborne's interview with Andrew Neil?
0 -
You should be out on the same Sussex streets you pounded 12 months ago urging people to vote for Cameron and Osborne apologizing for misleading them .PlatoSaid said:
Absolutely, watching your rivals tactics is the most useful thing one can do. Sending Blair and Major to NI to put the frighteners on today is a good example.Mortimer said:
Disagree entirely I'm afraid CR.Casino_Royale said:Anyway, I think Remainers have a point. Vote Leave have probably harvested the maximum (or near maximum) number of votes they can on open migration now.
They should spend the last two weeks painting the positive, open, optimistic picture of a global Britain, and a new golden age of friendly cooperation and colloboration in a world of self-governing liberal democracies, IMHO
Focus on the ABs.
Remain are trying to change our strategy because they see that it is working. They wouldn't be interrupting us if it was a mistake.
All the ABs who are going to vote Leave are already persuaded. All that is needed to diffuse these false attacks from GO and DC is a few lines from BoJo along the lines of 'if it Rascist to want higher wages and better access to services, then almost everyone on the planet is'. This is not a general election where targeting will work. Building a broad coalition means we need to ensure that the working class voters who would be most helped by higher wages vote for us.
As Casino noted - wall to wall Remain ads in the City. If Leave wasn't winning on immigration - Remain wouldn't be smearing Farage and name calling the rest of us parochial. They're scared.0 -
Good stuff, we've not heard enough from pugilists in this debate.TheScreamingEagles said:Bloody hell. Looks like I'll be hitting the streets of Leeds with not one, but two members of the Benn family next week.
http://tinyurl.com/hnhpet6
Has anyone tried to recruit Muhammad Ali for their particular EU view yet?0 -
I don't like the Posh Boys spiel. Its boring and ineffective but agree that Sturgeon lecturing England is going to go down like a bucket of cold sick. Could be leaves secret weapon.GIN1138 said:So the Posh Boys have been smearing the English as "Little Englander's" and then tonight Nicola is going to go an telly to lecture and patronize the English.
Should be interesting....0 -
One for Matthew Parris' many fans on pb.com:
http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/the-six-best-reasons-to-vote-in/0 -
There's a clueless woman who doesn't work anywhere near London and the South East.TOPPING said:Good line of the morning is:
"If you meet a migrant in the NHS they are more likely to be treating you than ahead of you in the queue."
Dr S Wollaston
58% of children born in London are to foreign mums.
64,000 children are born each year to EU mums. 27% of all children born in the UK are to mums born in other countries.
And she's head of the Parliamentary Health Committee?
0 -
Leave are 21pts ahead on the NHS.kjohnw said:
do you not think this attack on leaves NHS figures will stop their chances of winning as the NHS is sacrosanct in the eyes of the public?SouthamObserver said:
Group Think. This is a very, very tight contest in which Leave has the best, most accessible line: immigration controls.TheScreamingEagles said:Remain up to 77%. The power of Dr Wollaston and Osborne's interview with Andrew Neil?
0 -
Well to be fair they misled us...MarkSenior said:
You should be out on the same Sussex streets you pounded 12 months ago urging people to vote for Cameron and Osborne apologizing for misleading them .PlatoSaid said:
Absolutely, watching your rivals tactics is the most useful thing one can do. Sending Blair and Major to NI to put the frighteners on today is a good example.Mortimer said:
Disagree entirely I'm afraid CR.Casino_Royale said:Anyway, I think Remainers have a point. Vote Leave have probably harvested the maximum (or near maximum) number of votes they can on open migration now.
They should spend the last two weeks painting the positive, open, optimistic picture of a global Britain, and a new golden age of friendly cooperation and colloboration in a world of self-governing liberal democracies, IMHO
Focus on the ABs.
Remain are trying to change our strategy because they see that it is working. They wouldn't be interrupting us if it was a mistake.
All the ABs who are going to vote Leave are already persuaded. All that is needed to diffuse these false attacks from GO and DC is a few lines from BoJo along the lines of 'if it Rascist to want higher wages and better access to services, then almost everyone on the planet is'. This is not a general election where targeting will work. Building a broad coalition means we need to ensure that the working class voters who would be most helped by higher wages vote for us.
As Casino noted - wall to wall Remain ads in the City. If Leave wasn't winning on immigration - Remain wouldn't be smearing Farage and name calling the rest of us parochial. They're scared.0 -
It's amazing that running an exclusively Faragist campaign, the Brexiteers then get upset when people point out they are following a Faragist agendamidwinter said:I think the dangers for Leave on focusing too much on immigration are twofold. Firstly it makes your campaign one dimensional and very negative,
0 -
The first sentence of your final paragraph is fair but out of interest which parts of the Blair administrations' legislative programme did you vote against?NickPalmer said:
It's more complicated than that (apart from the fact that I don't agree with your description). Diane came a long way behind Khan and Jowell in the London selection, which was made by just the same London membership that voted massively for Corbyn. The membership is predominantly left-wing, but also likes winning. Where the non-leftie candidates are not putting a coherent case (and I don't think many people seriously argue that Corbyn's rivals did), they opt for the leftie. Where the non-leftie puts a case together then it gets serious consideration.Patrick said:The Labour Party has been captured by the hard left. If they ever do choose a woman leader it's going to Diane Abbot or some such horror story.
Leaving Iraq aside, lots of members including me supported Blair while he was doing what we felt was good stuff - refinancing health, doing the Northern Ireland deal, introducing the minimum wage, improving social legislation, etc. It wasn't that we had suddenly turned into semi-Tories, but we felt there was a useful agenda here which was worth pursuing for the moment. Khan was selected on much the same basis, and there are plenty of left-wing members who will go for that kind of option when it's on offer. What we won't do is settle for vague slogans adding up to nothing in particular.0 -
Yeah, the rotters promised us an In/Out referendum, shameful they haven't delivered one.GIN1138 said:
Well to be fair they misled us...MarkSenior said:
You should be out on the same Sussex streets you pounded 12 months ago urging people to vote for Cameron and Osborne apologizing for misleading them .PlatoSaid said:
Absolutely, watching your rivals tactics is the most useful thing one can do. Sending Blair and Major to NI to put the frighteners on today is a good example.Mortimer said:
Disagree entirely I'm afraid CR.Casino_Royale said:Anyway, I think Remainers have a point. Vote Leave have probably harvested the maximum (or near maximum) number of votes they can on open migration now.
They should spend the last two weeks painting the positive, open, optimistic picture of a global Britain, and a new golden age of friendly cooperation and colloboration in a world of self-governing liberal democracies, IMHO
Focus on the ABs.
Remain are trying to change our strategy because they see that it is working. They wouldn't be interrupting us if it was a mistake.
All the ABs who are going to vote Leave are already persuaded. All that is needed to diffuse these false attacks from GO and DC is a few lines from BoJo along the lines of 'if it Rascist to want higher wages and better access to services, then almost everyone on the planet is'. This is not a general election where targeting will work. Building a broad coalition means we need to ensure that the working class voters who would be most helped by higher wages vote for us.
As Casino noted - wall to wall Remain ads in the City. If Leave wasn't winning on immigration - Remain wouldn't be smearing Farage and name calling the rest of us parochial. They're scared.
Oh wait.0 -
The BBC playing up Sarah Wollaston's so called desertion of Leave. Obviously a well planned trap for Leave that hasn't entirely come off. Wollaston's has no history as a euro-sceptic.0
-
No you really aren't. You forget we have all watched your progression into the Remain camp over the last few months and it has been very obvious that you are putting party first.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm putting the county first. Country before party.Richard_Tyndall said:
Well since I am not a Tory your point is..... pointless. I would be very pleased to be on the same side as Benn (senior) on many issues, not just the EU.TheScreamingEagles said:
Yeah but if he was alive you'd be on the same side as Tony Benn.Richard_Tyndall said:
Just goes to show how far you have sold out.TheScreamingEagles said:Bloody hell. Looks like I'll be hitting the streets of Leeds with not one, but two members of the Benn family next week.
These are strange times.
You on the other hand have sold out. Even you know it.
The only good thing is that the one thing you are desperate to save is going to be destroyed by the whole affair. So there is some justice in the world.0 -
Given the obvious need for medical professionals, would it not be feasible for the NHS to work directly with colleges in places like Mumbai or Manila, with approved qualifications and promises of UK visas for a period of time to successful graduates? Maybe a program could pay for tuition fees over say five or ten years as a training bond. Win-win?foxinsoxuk said:
A very large number are. 10% of UK medical staff are from the EU, and I would be surprised if the percentage of nursing staff is substantially different.tlg86 said:
And there is a good chance they are not from the EU..........TOPPING said:Good line of the morning is:
"If you meet a migrant in the NHS they are more likely to be treating you than ahead of you in the queue."
Dr S Wollaston
The single market means automatic recognition of specialist and registerable qualifications, while non-EU applicants have to leap through multiple hoops and often take 6 months to be legally appointable, even when visas are not an issue, such as Indian Doctors coming on spouse visas.
Most medical and nursing migrants come with the intention of working for a year or two before returning home with additional funds and skills, so freedom of movement smooths things over considerably. Many choose to stay longer or even permenantly, but typically see moving as a year out.0 -
They also promised a renegotiation that would fundamentally change our relationship with the EU...TheScreamingEagles said:
Yeah, the rotters promised us an In/Out referendum, shameful they haven't delivered one.GIN1138 said:
Well to be fair they misled us...MarkSenior said:
You should be out on the same Sussex streets you pounded 12 months ago urging people to vote for Cameron and Osborne apologizing for misleading them .PlatoSaid said:
Absolutely, watching your rivals tactics is the most useful thing one can do. Sending Blair and Major to NI to put the frighteners on today is a good example.Mortimer said:
Disagree entirely I'm afraid CR.Casino_Royale said:Anyway, I think Remainers have a point. Vote Leave have probably harvested the maximum (or near maximum) number of votes they can on open migration now.
They should spend the last two weeks painting the positive, open, optimistic picture of a global Britain, and a new golden age of friendly cooperation and colloboration in a world of self-governing liberal democracies, IMHO
Focus on the ABs.
Remain are trying to change our strategy because they see that it is working. They wouldn't be interrupting us if it was a mistake.
All the ABs who are going to vote Leave are already persuaded. All that is needed to diffuse these false attacks from GO and DC is a few lines from BoJo along the lines of 'if it Rascist to want higher wages and better access to services, then almost everyone on the planet is'. This is not a general election where targeting will work. Building a broad coalition means we need to ensure that the working class voters who would be most helped by higher wages vote for us.
As Casino noted - wall to wall Remain ads in the City. If Leave wasn't winning on immigration - Remain wouldn't be smearing Farage and name calling the rest of us parochial. They're scared.
Oh wait.0 -
Well if you don't like it, they are giving you the chance to vote to Leave.GIN1138 said:
They also promised a renegotiation that would fundamentally change our relationship with the EU...TheScreamingEagles said:
Yeah, the rotters promised us an In/Out referendum, shameful they haven't delivered one.GIN1138 said:
Well to be fair they misled us...MarkSenior said:
You should be out on the same Sussex streets you pounded 12 months ago urging people to vote for Cameron and Osborne apologizing for misleading them .PlatoSaid said:
Absolutely, watching your rivals tactics is the most useful thing one can do. Sending Blair and Major to NI to put the frighteners on today is a good example.Mortimer said:
Disagree entirely I'm afraid CR.Casino_Royale said:Anyway, I think Remainers have a point. Vote Leave have probably harvested the maximum (or near maximum) number of votes they can on open migration now.
They should spend the last two weeks painting the positive, open, optimistic picture of a global Britain, and a new golden age of friendly cooperation and colloboration in a world of self-governing liberal democracies, IMHO
Focus on the ABs.
Remain are trying to change our strategy because they see that it is working. They wouldn't be interrupting us if it was a mistake.
All the ABs who are going to vote Leave are already persuaded. All that is needed to diffuse these false attacks from GO and DC is a few lines from BoJo along the lines of 'if it Rascist to want higher wages and better access to services, then almost everyone on the planet is'. This is not a general election where targeting will work. Building a broad coalition means we need to ensure that the working class voters who would be most helped by higher wages vote for us.
As Casino noted - wall to wall Remain ads in the City. If Leave wasn't winning on immigration - Remain wouldn't be smearing Farage and name calling the rest of us parochial. They're scared.
Oh wait.
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So those Remainers who attacked Boris's & Gove's inconsistency now also HAVE to attack Wollaston?Scott_P said:@DPJHodges: If Vote Leave want to attack Wollaston for political inconsistency, fine. But then surely they also have to attack Boris and Gove as well.
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We will; and have.TheScreamingEagles said:
Well if you don't like it, they are giving you the chance to vote to Leave.GIN1138 said:
They also promised a renegotiation that would fundamentally change our relationship with the EU...TheScreamingEagles said:
Yeah, the rotters promised us an In/Out referendum, shameful they haven't delivered one.GIN1138 said:
Well to be fair they misled us...MarkSenior said:
You should be out on the same Sussex streets you pounded 12 months ago urging people to vote for Cameron and Osborne apologizing for misleading them .PlatoSaid said:
Absolutely, watching your rivals tactics is the most useful thing one can do. Sending Blair and Major to NI to put the frighteners on today is a good example.Mortimer said:
Disagree entirely I'm afraid CR.Casino_Royale said:Anyway, I think Remainers have a point. Vote Leave have probably harvested the maximum (or near maximum) number of votes they can on open migration now.
They should spend the last two weeks painting the positive, open, optimistic picture of a global Britain, and a new golden age of friendly cooperation and colloboration in a world of self-governing liberal democracies, IMHO
Focus on the ABs.
Remain are trying to change our strategy because they see that it is working. They wouldn't be interrupting us if it was a mistake.
All the ABs who are going to vote Leave are already persuaded. All that is needed to diffuse these false attacks from GO and DC is a few lines from BoJo along the lines of 'if it Rascist to want higher wages and better access to services, then almost everyone on the planet is'. This is not a general election where targeting will work. Building a broad coalition means we need to ensure that the working class voters who would be most helped by higher wages vote for us.
As Casino noted - wall to wall Remain ads in the City. If Leave wasn't winning on immigration - Remain wouldn't be smearing Farage and name calling the rest of us parochial. They're scared.
Oh wait.0 -
The 350m business is clearly a pretext not a reason, there is nothing she is "complaining" about that wasnt know a month ago, we have been arguing about the next and gross contributions for weeks, if that is what really bothered her she would have left then, she didn't, and indeed continued to campaign for leave. She's been nobbled.0
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I don't remember similar objections to Cameron et al lecturing Scotland two years ago. Of course unlike Cameron, Sturgeon will be taking questions from the 'ordinary voter' which always helps to defuse accusations of being patronising.midwinter said:
I don't like the Posh Boys spiel. Its boring and ineffective but agree that Sturgeon lecturing England is going to go down like a bucket of cold sick. Could be leaves secret weapon.GIN1138 said:So the Posh Boys have been smearing the English as "Little Englander's" and then tonight Nicola is going to go an telly to lecture and patronize the English.
Should be interesting....0 -
Horrible, horrible trade figures this morning. Truly awful. The EU deficit is about as bad as it has ever been. If leave want to make an economic argument there is no day better than today.0
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Clique before country more like.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm putting the county first. Country before party.Richard_Tyndall said:
Well since I am not a Tory your point is..... pointless. I would be very pleased to be on the same side as Benn (senior) on many issues, not just the EU.TheScreamingEagles said:
Yeah but if he was alive you'd be on the same side as Tony Benn.Richard_Tyndall said:
Just goes to show how far you have sold out.TheScreamingEagles said:Bloody hell. Looks like I'll be hitting the streets of Leeds with not one, but two members of the Benn family next week.
These are strange times.
You on the other hand have sold out. Even you know it.0 -
Agreed. More of Gove and Hannan please.Casino_Royale said:Anyway, I think Remainers have a point. Vote Leave have probably harvested the maximum (or near maximum) number of votes they can on open migration now.
They should spend the last two weeks painting the positive, open, optimistic picture of a global Britain, and a new golden age of friendly cooperation and colloboration in a world of self-governing liberal democracies, IMHO
Focus on the ABs.
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And an opportunity to vote for someone else when the party implodes shortly, there was a time when that would have bothered me, with Dave and George, not so much.TheScreamingEagles said:
Well if you don't like it, they are giving you the chance to vote to Leave.GIN1138 said:
They also promised a renegotiation that would fundamentally change our relationship with the EU...TheScreamingEagles said:
Yeah, the rotters promised us an In/Out referendum, shameful they haven't delivered one.GIN1138 said:
Well to be fair they misled us...MarkSenior said:
You should be out on the same Sussex streets you pounded 12 months ago urging people to vote for Cameron and Osborne apologizing for misleading them .PlatoSaid said:
Absolutely, watching your rivals tactics is the most useful thing one can do. Sending Blair and Major to NI to put the frighteners on today is a good example.Mortimer said:
Disagree entirely I'm afraid CR.Casino_Royale said:Anyway, I think Remainers have a point. Vote Leave have probably harvested the maximum (or near maximum) number of votes they can on open migration now.
They should spend the last two weeks painting the positive, open, optimistic picture of a global Britain, and a new golden age of friendly cooperation and colloboration in a world of self-governing liberal democracies, IMHO
Focus on the ABs.
Remain are trying to change our strategy because they see that it is working. They wouldn't be interrupting us if it was a mistake.
All the ABs who are going to vote Leave are already persuaded. All that is needed to diffuse these false attacks from GO and DC is a few lines from BoJo along the lines of 'if it Rascist to want higher wages and better access to services, then almost everyone on the planet is'. This is not a general election where targeting will work. Building a broad coalition means we need to ensure that the working class voters who would be most helped by higher wages vote for us.
As Casino noted - wall to wall Remain ads in the City. If Leave wasn't winning on immigration - Remain wouldn't be smearing Farage and name calling the rest of us parochial. They're scared.
Oh wait.0 -
It's irrational to think he doesn't care. It makes much more sense to assume he does, but saw no other option in order to take what he feels to be the best decision, ensuring a Remain win. Now, I think he's wrong about remain being the best option, and he is probably wrong he had to conduct himself the way he has in order to win, but I can see the sense, particularly if he felt Remain was not a certain win and so he had to give it his all. And I think for those opposing him best to do so from a place understanding his decisions, rather than thinking he, and his supporters, are crazy.GIN1138 said:
LOL!John_M said:
Good morning all. Not so.Scott_P said:
Toys - PramPlatoSaid said:I got my membership renewal papers yesterday. If Remain wins, I'm leaving.
Thus far, my own (in the sense that I'm a life long Tory voter) party has told me I'm xenephobic (as others have said, this is the new 'racist', with the 'phobic' added to make it doubly irrational), parochial (thanks Hague, you multi-millionaire you) and stupid. Hmm. Who shall I vote for next time?
I've said all along that remain will win. But Cameron should look up the meaning of 'Pyrrhic victory'.
Cameron doesn't care that he's destroyed his party with all this stuff because he'll be off soon enough but it's his successor who will somehow have to pick up the pieces.
I'll not be voting Con anytime soon that is for sure.
In fact it seems as simple as most political decision making - you put off the controversial stuff as best you can, and then when it happens you defeat it by whatever means you deem necessary and pick up the pieces afterwards, because if you fail you won't be around to prevent try, and, as all leaders and indeed parties believe, it is in the country's best interests to be in their charge, and disruption now is preferable to a loss.0 -
If they've planned that one how many others have they planned? Just wait until their sleeper agent Farage defects to Remain.MikeK said:The BBC playing up Sarah Wollaston's so called desertion of Leave. Obviously a well planned trap for Leave that hasn't entirely come off. Wollaston's has no history as a euro-sceptic.
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Nandy has a lisssp. Nothinks wrongsh wisth sthat ifs youths likesth sthat.FrankBooth said:On topic - I think it's a very curious thing that the left has struggled to produce female leaders. Surely 40 years ago it would have been seen as a near certainty. I'm not sure any of the prominent Labour women are likely to have widespread appeal. Eagle was quite good when I saw her at PMQs but her voice is a weakness. As for Nandy, I could see her being acceptable to the soft left but would she appeal to the aspirational (i.e most of the electorate)?
Time they resurrected the Roy Hattersley spitting image puppet?
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I think this comment unwittingly underlines the problem the Tories have here: the major problem for Major came from his own side- the constant battle with the "Bastards". If he was ineffectual, it was because the Tories were fighting like cats in a sack, and what this referendum is showing is that the same old problem has, if anything, got worse.Estobar said:Major was a rubbish ineffectual PM and has become both a bore and a whingeing old OAP. He has managed to upset everyone from his neighbours to Lord's.
He fumbled and stumbled his way out of the ERM which, by sheer luck, brought on this country's prosperity. (There's a lesson there re. the EU of course.)
And he managed to generate the Blairite landslide victory: a generation lost to the Conservatives as well as the single-most disastrous foreign policy in British history which has unleashed a thousand years of terrorism against the west. And you could argue that because of Major we're now lumbered with Cameron who stands for precisely nothing.
Chapeau.
Even though the tired dinosaurs such as Bill Cash or Duncan Smith, have been joined by new fogies, like Rees Mogg and Johnson, they are still playing the same game of treachery.
The Leave Merchants can not be satisfied- even if they win the referendum, many will simply carry on the fight to avoid EEA or any other compromise position. A Fanatic is one who won't change his mind and won't change the subject, and it is hard to be positive in the face of this.
So Major is giving as good as he got, and the electorate will draw their own conclusions, both in two weeks time and at the next General Election.
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