politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Some MPs are set to remind the electorate that referendums
Comments
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Why do you think not being part of a huge trading bloc will get us better terms than being part of a huge trading bloc?Philip_Thompson said:
No, absolutely not.TOPPING said:
Robert does not formal acknowledgement of no ever closer union, no banking union, plus the EZ protection constitute de facto "associate membership"?rcs1000 said:
I think it would be very sensible for the EU to split into:williamglenn said:
At least in the short term it would have to be. The interesting thing is how to make it sustainable. You'd need to upgrade the institutional framework of EFTA/EEA so that it became, in effect, the same as Associate Member status of the EU. Perhaps the ultimate effect of an aborted Brexit will be for the EU to gain some new members on an associate basis.rcs1000 said:
It's in both sides interests for there to be as little disruption as possible, so I suspect EFTA/EEA would be on the table.TOPPING said:
Good luck with that.williamglenn said:I recall a long series of posts from Richard Tyndall arguing that the EU can't force us out of the EEA against our will. As this referendum is strictly about EU membership, a government so-minded could say that a Leave vote does not give a mandate to leave the single market anyway. A sizeable number of Brexiters have been making this very argument for a long time.
Aside from no Vote Leaver standing for no change on free movement, the EU has made it clear that for an economy the size of the UK, an EEA option is not feasible.
Eurozone
and
Associate Members
The Associate Members would be outside CAP, CFP, and the political structures. They would contribute in a small way, but would not receive regional development funds. They would respect the Four Freedoms, but would be allowed to discriminate in favour of their own citizens.
Whether that happens or not is another matter altogether.
What else would you put in and assuming you need the ECJ to opine on Single Market rules?
We are still obliged to implement 100% of EU laws, versus the 4% Switzerland does.
We are still forbidden from unilaterally lowering tariffs or entering trade agreements with the 93% of the world not in the EU. Unlike Switzerland and Norway.
We are still under the jurisdiction of the ECJ while Switzerland and Norway etc are not.
Why do you think not being a part of a banking union makes up for having our hands tied with 93% of the world's population?
Why do you suppose it is relatively easy for Norway to conclude trade deals?0 -
On topic, wow at the revelations in this thread. Really awful reading for Remain. What on earth is the point in anyone voting Remain if politicians keep us in regardless of the outcome?0
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Appealing to Guardian readers didn't work before either.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Cameron tries to shore himself up by being surrounded by lefties. Desperate stuff. 16 campaigning days after today.chestnut said:It looks like Remain have chucked in the towel as most comments are about trying to manage the aftermath of defeat.
The idea that tweaks and manoeuvring will suffice is very reminiscent of Scottish Labour in winter 2014.0 -
Though a very good post I'm afraid the credit belongs to 'RealBritain' not mejohn_zims said:@Roger
'It is grim and depressing. If people vote for a campaign that is openly, unabashedly xenophobic, and which ranges from campaigning on "foreign criminals" to ther prospect of sex attacks on British women if we stay in the EU, this country will deserve absolutely everything it gets from the economic disaster of Brexit. '
It is grim and depressing when voters raise concerns about immigration that virtue signalling lefties always play the race card.0 -
This is exactly what is being suggested.rkrkrk said:No more bloody referendums.
If it's an out vote we should leave.
And the government of the day should decide what deal we pursue instead.
If people don't like the deal negotiated... They can elect a new government who can try to change it.
And it has the "Sovereignty and Democracy" Brexiteers with their panties in an ever tightening wad this morning0 -
If Parliament did seek to ignore a Brexit vote, I'm pretty sure that UKIP would sweep Kent, Essex, Suffolk, Lincolnshire, South Yorkshire (less Sheffield), South East London, the West Midlands (outside Birmingham), Cornwall, the South Coast at the subsequent general election.
My Sean, that is a Bold statement!0 -
I seriously doubt that the British public has an appetite for another referendum. Just pointing out that a Leave vote would mean another referendum would likely add 2-3 pts to Remain.Jobabob said:
Noooooooooooooooooooo! Please no more.rcs1000 said:
I think whatever is agreed, it will likely be put to another referendum.taffys said:The single-market Tories are trying to assert at least some control. This is turning into a real caper.
If leave wins clearly, you'll be able to get the 'single-market tories' into a Reliant Robin.0 -
Nobody has suggested that.Luckyguy1983 said:On topic, wow at the revelations in this thread. Really awful reading for Remain. What on earth is the point in anyone voting Remain if politicians keep us in regardless of the outcome?
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Because they only have to be concerned about their own interests not those of 27 other countries as well.TOPPING said:
Why do you think not being part of a huge trading bloc will get us better terms than being part of a huge trading bloc?Philip_Thompson said:
No, absolutely not.TOPPING said:
Robert does not formal acknowledgement of no ever closer union, no banking union, plus the EZ protection constitute de facto "associate membership"?rcs1000 said:
I think it would be very sensible for the EU to split into:williamglenn said:
At least in the short term it would have to be. The interesting thing is how to make it sustainable. You'd need to upgrade the institutional framework of EFTA/EEA so that it became, in effect, the same as Associate Member status of the EU. Perhaps the ultimate effect of an aborted Brexit will be for the EU to gain some new members on an associate basis.rcs1000 said:
It's in both sides interests for there to be as little disruption as possible, so I suspect EFTA/EEA would be on the table.TOPPING said:
Good luck with that.williamglenn said:I recall a long series of posts from Richard Tyndall arguing that the EU can't force us out of the EEA against our will. As this referendum is strictly about EU membership, a government so-minded could say that a Leave vote does not give a mandate to leave the single market anyway. A sizeable number of Brexiters have been making this very argument for a long time.
Aside from no Vote Leaver standing for no change on free movement, the EU has made it clear that for an economy the size of the UK, an EEA option is not feasible.
Eurozone
and
Associate Members
The Associate Members would be outside CAP, CFP, and the political structures. They would contribute in a small way, but would not receive regional development funds. They would respect the Four Freedoms, but would be allowed to discriminate in favour of their own citizens.
Whether that happens or not is another matter altogether.
What else would you put in and assuming you need the ECJ to opine on Single Market rules?
We are still obliged to implement 100% of EU laws, versus the 4% Switzerland does.
We are still forbidden from unilaterally lowering tariffs or entering trade agreements with the 93% of the world not in the EU. Unlike Switzerland and Norway.
We are still under the jurisdiction of the ECJ while Switzerland and Norway etc are not.
Why do you think not being a part of a banking union makes up for having our hands tied with 93% of the world's population?
Why do you suppose it is relatively easy for Norway to conclude trade deals?0 -
Guido is tweeting an ICM I think0
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0
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Although the European Investment Bank bills themselves as "The EU Bank", I think they are owned by European governments and not the EU themselves. I also think the shareholder list (although I could be wrong) includes non-EU countries.Richard_Tyndall said:OT (sort of)
Interesting development this morning. As you might know I have my own Geology/Archaeology business with my wife who is also a geologist.
So after having had the business for 10 years and just 2 weeks before the EU referendum this morning for the first time ever my wife gets a letter from a company called Iwoca offering EU backed finance for my business. This company says the scheme is backed by the European Investment Bank and supported by the EU and trumpets the fact it has loaned £100 million to 4,500 businesses at low interest rates.
Am I being rather cynical in wondering why, after 10 years and not a peep from these people we are suddenly getting an offer of an EU loan 2 weeks before the referendum.0 -
@Wulfrun_Phil
'Looking at the detail of the YouGov poll, Remain should be very worried by the age breakdown and what it implies allowing for differential turnout. Overall, Leave has a net lead of 4% out of a sample of 3495, which amounts to 140 people more favouring Leave over Remain. Apply the same methodology to the age breakdown though, and you see a lead for Leave as follows:
+205 in the 65+
+138 for the 50-64s
- 30 for the 25-49s (i.e. Remain ahead)
- 162 for the 18-24s
(with +11 difference to +140 given rounding effects)
So if the 18-24s are stripped out of it, the 4% lead for Leave would grow to about 10%.
The question is, can the Remain camp rely on the propensity of 18-24s to vote being almost identical to that of 65+s, something that YouGov assume in the absence of any turnout filter.'
No it can't.
Bite the Ballot, a group working to engage young people in politics, says that between 23-27 May there were more than 3,800 clicks via its website to a government sign-up page.
Of that number the group believes just 10 people successfully registered.
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I will be voting Remain. (I thought I'd been fairly clear about that, though only in the comments rather than my lead articles).Roger said:
Have you decided how you're going to vote yet? You're about the only person on here who hasn't made their preference known. As a Conservative with possible ambitions it's probably a wise decision.david_herdson said:
There will no doubt be polls at the time to guide MPs and the govt.Scott_P said:
That is not what is being proposed.david_herdson said:Indeed. But if you think that the British parliament would do anything other than respect the will of the nation as expressed in a referendum then in that event, I expect you to be uncomfortably surprised.
Also important to note the distinction between Government and Parliament
Parliament will respect the will of the British people (out of the EU) but there may be a majority in Parliament for EFTA/EEA
Since that is not on the ballot paper, parliament would not be subverting the will of the British people by implementing that
And it may be true that the Government would be voted out of office, but I am still not sure it would result in a UKIP majority
And for those who claim that all of this would be avoided if the Tories had a Brexiteer instead of Cameron, they had IDS. If they had him again, Ed would be PM (or Gordo for that matter)
However, given the prominence of immigration as an issue in the EURef campaign, and of the threats of Turks down the road - both of which are clearly related to freedom of movement, which itself is directly related to membership of the Single market - I can't see how a Leave can meaningfully be implemented without breaking with that membership.
(If you have and i've missed it apologies)
I don't have any ambitions within the Party. I certainly have no desire to return to local government and gave up on my aspiration to be an MP some years ago when I saw the demands of the job. I'm already an Association chairman (which isn't really an office I sought), and wouldn't want to go higher within the voluntary structure.0 -
Mr P et al,
I believe that Remain will won.
But if we were to vote Leave, then to defy the voters by saying "We asked you, the little people, to choose, at great expense, but you got it wrong. Therefore we, the great and the good who know better, will decide for you. So suck it up." A recipe for a Kipper-fest at the next GE, which would be soon.
If Leave publicise this well enough, it will be worth enough votes to possibly swing the referendum too.
Remain have all the advantages, but they seem to want to shoot their own foot off.
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Here are a few.rcs1000 said:
Could you please list the Remainers who proposed that we should not go to war with Argentina.PlatoSaid said:
Well quite. The Remainers of back then wouldn't have faced down the Argies either. It'd all be too scary, and risky and hard.CarlottaVance said:
That wasn't how it felt at the time - for a long time the UK was the 'sick man of Europe' condemned to 'irreversible decline'. The simple analysis was 'the Common Market is doing better - lets join that'.Sean_F said:
The UK was a successful and prosperous democracy prior to joining the EU, and it will remain a prosperous and successful democracy if it leaves the EU.SPML said:
I agree with Roger (and I never thought I would say that) and williamglenn and a few others on this site. Leave winning would be the most depressing election result in my lifetime and the consequences for our country and the population at large don't bear thinking about. On the plus side, I am sure we can make a fortune printing "DON'T BLAME ME...I VOTED REMAIN" merchandise.Roger said:FPT. A first post by 'RealBritain' from the end of the last thread.
RealBritain Posts: 1
9:16AM
Roger said:
» show previous quotes
"It is a deplorable indightment of the British people as much as the leaers promoting it. Their whole campaign is based on xenophobia and that's how it will be seen around the world. A reputation which Britain has built up over centuries will be lost in a single day"
RealBritain
It is grim and depressing. If people vote for a campaign that is openly, unabashedly xenophobic, and which ranges from campaigning on "foreign criminals" to ther prospect of sex attacks on British women if we stay in the EU, this country will deserve absolutely everything it gets from the economic disaster of Brexit.
Of course the 'Common Market' had got nowt to do with what fundamentally transformed the UK's fortunes - a Prime Minister who refused to accept the consensus of 'managed decline'....
It's an attitude of mind.
"Outside Number 10, junior ministers Tim Raison and Ken Clarke as well as Stephen Dorrell and Chris Patten were also expressing alarm; Dorrell for one saying he would only support the Task Force as a negotiating measure - and advocating a withdrawal if the military Junta in Argentina refused to negotiate."
- See more at: http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/thatcher-archive-reveals-deep-divisions-on-the-road-to-falklands-war#sthash.SyqbvL41.dpuf0 -
Nothing to do with them being a single-product economy? K.Richard_Tyndall said:
Because they only have to be concerned about their own interests not those of 27 other countries as well.TOPPING said:
Why do you think not being part of a huge trading bloc will get us better terms than being part of a huge trading bloc?Philip_Thompson said:
No, absolutely not.TOPPING said:
Robert does not formal acknowledgement of no ever closer union, no banking union, plus the EZ protection constitute de facto "associate membership"?rcs1000 said:
I think it would be very sensible for the EU to split into:williamglenn said:
At least in the sbasis.rcs1000 said:
It's in both sides interests for there to be as little disruption as possible, so I suspect EFTA/EEA would be on the table.TOPPING said:
Good luck with that.williamglenn said:I recall a long series of posts from Richard Tyndall arguing that the EU can't force us out of the EEA against our will. As this referendum is strictly about EU membership, a government so-minded could say that a Leave vote does not give a mandate to leave the single market anyway. A sizeable number of Brexiters have been making this very argument for a long time.
Aside from no Vote Leaver standing for no change on free movement, the EU has made it clear that for an economy the size of the UK, an EEA option is not feasible.
Eurozone
and
Associate Members
The Associate Members would be outside CAP, CFP, and the political structures. They would contribute in a small way, but would not receive regional development funds. They would respect the Four Freedoms, but would be allowed to discriminate in favour of their own citizens.
Whether that happens or not is another matter altogether.
What else would you put in and assuming you need the ECJ to opine on Single Market rules?
We are still obliged to implement 100% of EU laws, versus the 4% Switzerland does.
We are still forbidden from unilaterally lowering tariffs or entering trade agreements with the 93% of the world not in the EU. Unlike Switzerland and Norway.
We are still under the jurisdiction of the ECJ while Switzerland and Norway etc are not.
Why do you think not being a part of a banking union makes up for having our hands tied with 93% of the world's population?
Why do you suppose it is relatively easy for Norway to conclude trade deals?0 -
Nobody is suggesting keeping us in if Leave wins. The discussion is about what the subsequent relationship with the EU might look like.Luckyguy1983 said:On topic, wow at the revelations in this thread. Really awful reading for Remain. What on earth is the point in anyone voting Remain if politicians keep us in regardless of the outcome?
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No. We are already members and independent signatories to the EEA agreement. The only thing that would stop us being members would be if we left the EU but did not join EFTA as we would then be in breach of the treaty terms.Indigo said:
Do the EU actually get a say in whether we join the EEA or not ?TOPPING said:
Good luck with that.williamglenn said:I recall a long series of posts from Richard Tyndall arguing that the EU can't force us out of the EEA against our will. As this referendum is strictly about EU membership, a government so-minded could say that a Leave vote does not give a mandate to leave the single market anyway. A sizeable number of Brexiters have been making this very argument for a long time.
Aside from no Vote Leaver standing for no change on free movement, the EU has made it clear that for an economy the size of the UK, an EEA option is not feasible.0 -
Can we have a sweepstake?
First Brexiteer to correctly understand the "Reverse Maastricht" idea and comment upon it, instead of their wilful misinterpretation?0 -
Hi all.
I have just posted off my postal vote. That's another one for LEAVE.
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And schooling, in-work benefits et al. I still don't agree with free movement. I believe in looking after our own first, not parking them whilst EUers frequently beat them in interviews for low-skilled jobs or promotions.rcs1000 said:
There's free movement and there's free movement.taffys said:''If Leave wins, having using migration as its major theme, and freedom of movement is retained by Parliament following a vote, UKIP could have a rather good General Election result. ''
Indeed Mr Morris and that's why I don't see the above scenario unfolding. Could remain seriously expect the Mark Pritchard tendency to stick with them after a leave victory (especially a clear leave victory)? When the prize of seeing off UKIP for good is before them?
Even the tory payroll vote would be wondering if the paymaster was about to change. These are politicians, not zealots.
Many labour politicians are also looking at UKIP second placers.
If there were no in-work benefits available, I think there would be a much smaller flow of immigrants to the UK. If you needed to buy NHS health insurance, then it would be dramatically smaller.
It's worse than secondary moderns for the bottom rungs.0 -
Who at BSIE is going to write the book on what is going on behind the scenes at REMAIN?Scott_P said:@britainelects: EU referendum poll:
Remain: 43% (-1)
Leave: 48% (+1)
(via ICM, online / 03 - 05 Jun)
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Well, quite...
@PCollinsTimes: If the Leave people get what they want they are then going to find out that it wasn't what they wanted. But they won't ever admit it.0 -
What if the turnout is well under 50%, and the majority for Leave is tiny? My instinct is still to say; that was the result, live with it but as a convinced Remainer I’d be seriously p****d off.0
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It looks from the outside like the top remainers are desperate to keep mass immigration and huge net payments to the EU at all costs.Scott_P said:Can we have a sweepstake?
First Brexiteer to correctly understand the "Reverse Maastricht" idea and comment upon it, instead of their wilful misinterpretation?
But I am happy to be corrected.0 -
Sorry, was there a referendum on Maastricht which some MPs went against?Scott_P said:Can we have a sweepstake?
First Brexiteer to correctly understand the "Reverse Maastricht" idea and comment upon it, instead of their wilful misinterpretation?
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Yes I feel I am being forced to hit the "nuclear button" because I am just being given no real option (see my post down thread on politicians saying they'll do "X" and then just not even attempting or even reversing totally). Yes, there's always going to be compromise and areas of grey, it's real life, but I personally believe now (didn't pre negotiation - silly me) that Dave never remotely considered recommending "Leave", and his counter parties in the negotiation could smell it. He had a gun with no bullets, so they gave him bugger all.Bob__Sykes said:
Me too. But he didn't even try, and we have been forced into a "nuclear option" referendum process.welshowl said:
100% right. I would back that at once.DavidL said:If Cameron goes to Brussels after a Leave vote and comes back with an associate membership that allows some restraint on freedom of movement (whilst respecting all existing rights) and continued membership of the Single Market in exchange for a reasonable contribution (ie about half of what we are paying now) I would be genuinely ecstatic.
My only disappointment would be that he didn't get that in his original negotiations and spare us all this pain.
I didn't want meltdown and Brexit, I wanted a better and more productive relationship with our EU partners. I had rather thought Cameron did too....
To add insult to injury he didn't even say "sorry folks, not great but best I could do" , but instead decided to treat us like utter fools and pretend it was great ("I sure would"). You can't fool all the people all the time.
It's a sad state of affairs, I really only wanted a bit more compromise but we are now in a world of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse being threatened together with the slaughter of the first born if we dare to even think about stepping out of line. Well I won't be bought, or cowed. It will almost certainly cost me personally money short term, but there comes a point where being treated with contempt by those we elect is too much.
I note Texas' motto is "live free or die". Bit extreme, I'd probably be a bit more British and be "live free and feel a bit under the weather economically for a bit". But same end result.0 -
For once I agree with TSE on the summery of this thread. Any MP from any party, but especially the Tory party, would be lambasted and hounded out of office if they tried this method of thwarting the will of the voters.0
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Unlikely to happen, with the way the polls are now, if the turnout is under 50%, Leave wins by a landslide.OldKingCole said:What if the turnout is well under 50%, and the majority for Leave is tiny? My instinct is still to say; that was the result, live with it but as a convinced Remainer I’d be seriously p****d off.
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rcs1000 said:
I think whatever is agreed, it will likely be put to another referendum.taffys said:The single-market Tories are trying to assert at least some control. This is turning into a real caper.
If leave wins clearly, you'll be able to get the 'single-market tories' into a Reliant Robin.
REMAIN MPs could vote to insist on a UK referendum on any new trade arrangements to try to force remaining in the single market with freedom of movement with the EU.
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Remain now deeply reliant on a swing in the polling station to see them through...0
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Yes- writing more in response to comments rather than article.Scott_P said:
This is exactly what is being suggested.rkrkrk said:No more bloody referendums.
If it's an out vote we should leave.
And the government of the day should decide what deal we pursue instead.
If people don't like the deal negotiated... They can elect a new government who can try to change it.
And it has the "Sovereignty and Democracy" Brexiteers with their panties in an ever tightening wad this morning
I would concede that an early general election could be a good idea... to allow the parties to come up with some plans for what they would prioritize in the negotiations. Not sure how that time line works given a potential Tory leadership election also...0 -
Many thanks for your archaeology.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Here are a few.rcs1000 said:
Could you please list the Remainers who proposed that we should not go to war with Argentina.PlatoSaid said:
Well quite. The Remainers of back then wouldn't have faced down the Argies either. It'd all be too scary, and risky and hard.CarlottaVance said:
That wasn't how it felt at the time - for a long time the UK was the 'sick man of Europe' condemned to 'irreversible decline'. The simple analysis was 'the Common Market is doing better - lets join that'.Sean_F said:
The UK was a successful and prosperous democracy prior to joining the EU, and it will remain a prosperous and successful democracy if it leaves the EU.SPML said:
I agree with Roger (and I never thought I would say that) and williamglenn and a few others on this site. Leave winning would be the most depressing election result in my lifetime and the consequences for our country and the population at large don't bear thinking about. On the plus side, I am sure we can make a fortune printing "DON'T BLAME ME...I VOTED REMAIN" merchandise.Roger said:FPT. A first post by 'RealBritain' from the end of the last thread.
RealBritain Posts: 1
9:16AM
Roger said:
» show previous quotes
"It is a deplorable indightment of the British people as much as the leaers promoting it. Their whole campaign is based on xenophobia and that's how it will be seen around the world. A reputation which Britain has built up over centuries will be lost in a single day"
RealBritain
It is grim and depressing. If people vote for a campaign that is openly, unabashedly xenophobic, and which ranges from campaigning on "foreign criminals" to ther prospect of sex attacks on British women if we stay in the EU, this country will deserve absolutely everything it gets from the economic disaster of Brexit.
Of course the 'Common Market' had got nowt to do with what fundamentally transformed the UK's fortunes - a Prime Minister who refused to accept the consensus of 'managed decline'....
It's an attitude of mind.
"Outside Number 10, junior ministers Tim Raison and Ken Clarke as well as Stephen Dorrell and Chris Patten were also expressing alarm; Dorrell for one saying he would only support the Task Force as a negotiating measure - and advocating a withdrawal if the military Junta in Argentina refused to negotiate."
- See more at: http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/thatcher-archive-reveals-deep-divisions-on-the-road-to-falklands-war#sthash.SyqbvL41.dpuf0 -
I suppose that also applies to Singapore, Switzerland, India, Chile, Israel, Japan and South Korea, each of whom have got total trade deals worth more than the EU has.TOPPING said:
Nothing to do with them being a single-product economy? K.Richard_Tyndall said:
Because they only have to be concerned about their own interests not those of 27 other countries as well.TOPPING said:
Why do you think not being part of a huge trading bloc will get us better terms than being part of a huge trading bloc?Philip_Thompson said:
No, absolutely not.TOPPING said:
Robert does not formal acknowledgement of no ever closer union, no banking union, plus the EZ protection constitute de facto "associate membership"?rcs1000 said:
I think it would be very sensible for the EU to split into:williamglenn said:
At least in the sbasis.rcs1000 said:
It's in both sides interests for there to be as little disruption as possible, so I suspect EFTA/EEA would be on the table.TOPPING said:
Good luck with that.williamglenn said:I recall a long series of posts from Richard Tyndall arguing that the EU can't force us out of the EEA against our will. As this referendum is strictly about EU membership, a government so-minded could say that a Leave vote does not give a mandate to leave the single market anyway. A sizeable number of Brexiters have been making this very argument for a long time.
Aside from no Vote Leaver standing for no change on free movement, the EU has made it clear that for an economy the size of the UK, an EEA option is not feasible.
Eurozone
and
Associate Members
The Associate Members would be outside CAP, CFP, and the political structures. They would contribute in a small way, but would not receive regional development funds. They would respect the Four Freedoms, but would be allowed to discriminate in favour of their own citizens.
Whether that happens or not is another matter altogether.
What else would you put in and assuming you need the ECJ to opine on Single Market rules?
We are still obliged to implement 100% of EU laws, versus the 4% Switzerland does.
We are still forbidden from unilaterally lowering tariffs or entering trade agreements with the 93% of the world not in the EU. Unlike Switzerland and Norway.
We are still under the jurisdiction of the ECJ while Switzerland and Norway etc are not.
Why do you think not being a part of a banking union makes up for having our hands tied with 93% of the world's population?
Why do you suppose it is relatively easy for Norway to conclude trade deals?0 -
Absolutely right. I am not sure that I would be entirely comfortable as I accept that the vote does seem to be predominantly about immigration and as such a lot of people would feel betrayed (I was planning on doing a thread header on both sides losing by winning).williamglenn said:I recall a long series of posts from Richard Tyndall arguing that the EU can't force us out of the EEA against our will. As this referendum is strictly about EU membership, a government so-minded could say that a Leave vote does not give a mandate to leave the single market anyway. A sizeable number of Brexiters have been making this very argument for a long time.
But once a Leave vote had been made and Cameron invoked Article 50 then it would be entirely in the hands of the Government and Parliament how that was interpreted.0 -
I think Leave are panicking. As the day of reckoning looms, they're suddenly realising that they need to provide a sensible alternative to EU membership, and they've no idea how. Very soon they're going to be held personally responsible for the state of the nation. It's not a scenario they're familiar with, preferring ordinarily to blame everything else from the sidelines. With luck it should do them some good - taking responsibility for their actions and all that.FeersumEnjineeya said:
Nobody is suggesting keeping us in if Leave wins. The discussion is about what the subsequent relationship with the EU might look like.Luckyguy1983 said:On topic, wow at the revelations in this thread. Really awful reading for Remain. What on earth is the point in anyone voting Remain if politicians keep us in regardless of the outcome?
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Project Fear...
@bbclaurak: Gove now claiming EU schengen (which we re not in) 'actively abets terrorism'0 -
TCPoliticalBetting said:
Who at BSIE is going to write the book on what is going on behind the scenes at REMAIN?Scott_P said:@britainelects: EU referendum poll:
Remain: 43% (-1)
Leave: 48% (+1)
(via ICM, online / 03 - 05 Jun)
Will they see it through Rose tinted glasses?0 -
No. Two and a half weeks of campaigning by which time those making a knee jerk reaction to the immgration figures might have reconsideredTheWhiteRabbit said:Remain now deeply reliant on a swing in the polling station to see them through...
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Happy to amend your post.taffys said:
It looks from the outside like the topScott_P said:Can we have a sweepstake?
First Brexiteer to correctly understand the "Reverse Maastricht" idea and comment upon it, instead of their wilful misinterpretation?remainersPB Leavers are desperate to keep mass immigration and huge net payments to the EU at all costs.
But I am happy to be corrected.0 -
I note Texas' motto is "live free or die". Bit extreme, I'd probably be a bit more British and be "live free and feel a bit under the weather economically for a bit".
Just superb.0 -
Fact on the street #1
The more that Cameron appears on the same soapbox, hand in hand with Corbynites and the hard left of Labour, flogging REMAIN, the more he is being held in contempt by both Labour and Tory supporters.0 -
No problem, I remember that Clarke and Patton were, as usual, wrong.PlatoSaid said:
Many thanks for your archaeology.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Here are a few.rcs1000 said:
Could you please list the Remainers who proposed that we should not go to war with Argentina.PlatoSaid said:
Well quite. The Remainers of back then wouldn't have faced down the Argies either. It'd all be too scary, and risky and hard.CarlottaVance said:
That wasn't how it felt at the time - for a long time the UK was the 'sick man of Europe' condemned to 'irreversible decline'. The simple analysis was 'the Common Market is doing better - lets join that'.Sean_F said:
The UK was a successful and prosperous democracy prior to joining the EU, and it will remain a prosperous and successful democracy if it leaves the EU.SPML said:
I agree with Roger (and I never thought I would say that) and williamglenn and a few others on this site. Leave winning would be the most depressing election result in my lifetime and the consequences for our country and the population at large don't bear thinking about. On the plus side, I am sure we can make a fortune printing "DON'T BLAME ME...I VOTED REMAIN" merchandise.Roger said:FPT. A first post by 'RealBritain' from the end of the last thread.
RealBritain Posts: 1
9:16AM
Roger said:
» show previous quotes
"It is a deplorable indightment of the British people as much as the leaers promoting it. Their whole campaign is based on xenophobia and that's how it will be seen around the world. A reputation which Britain has built up over centuries will be lost in a single day"
RealBritain
It is grim and depressing. If people vote for a campaign that is openly, unabashedly xenophobic, and which ranges from campaigning on "foreign criminals" to ther prospect of sex attacks on British women if we stay in the EU, this country will deserve absolutely everything it gets from the economic disaster of Brexit.
Of course the 'Common Market' had got nowt to do with what fundamentally transformed the UK's fortunes - a Prime Minister who refused to accept the consensus of 'managed decline'....
It's an attitude of mind.
"Outside Number 10, junior ministers Tim Raison and Ken Clarke as well as Stephen Dorrell and Chris Patten were also expressing alarm; Dorrell for one saying he would only support the Task Force as a negotiating measure - and advocating a withdrawal if the military Junta in Argentina refused to negotiate."
- See more at: http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/thatcher-archive-reveals-deep-divisions-on-the-road-to-falklands-war#sthash.SyqbvL41.dpuf
0 -
Top Gear pulled in just 2.8 million viewers last night - down from 4.3million viewers last Sunday.
But remember folks FACT, it's a hit.0 -
I don't see how the last two and a half weeks are going to be sufficient to create a Remain lead any more than 2 or 3 points.Roger said:
No. Two and a half weeks of campaigning by which time those making a knee jerk reaction to the immgration figures might have reconsideredTheWhiteRabbit said:Remain now deeply reliant on a swing in the polling station to see them through...
0 -
It's quite entertainingStark_Dawning said:I think Leave are panicking. As the day of reckoning looms, they're suddenly realising that they need to provide a sensible alternative to EU membership, and they've no idea how.
"It's not up to us to decide what happens next, it will be up to our sovereign Parliament"
"OK, EFTA/EEA is the will of Parliament..."
BETRAYAL, CALUMNY, Off with their heads !!!!!!!!!0 -
ICM ..... Wow, this appears to be one way traffic at the moment. Could it be a sign of "shy" LEAVERS coming out of the proverbial woodwork as their preference is seen to be gaining the upper hand?0
-
Like it or not, reasonable or not, Leave are going on the attack.Scott_P said:Project Fear...
@bbclaurak: Gove now claiming EU schengen (which we re not in) 'actively abets terrorism'0 -
I don't think Leave are panicking. Immigration is a rich seam which they are being wise to exploit.Stark_Dawning said:
I think Leave are panicking. As the day of reckoning looms, they're suddenly realising that they need to provide a sensible alternative to EU membership, and they've no idea how. Very soon they're going to be held personally responsible for the state of the nation. It's not a scenario they're familiar with, preferring ordinarily to blame everything else from the sidelines. With luck it should do them some good - taking responsibility for their actions and all that.FeersumEnjineeya said:
Nobody is suggesting keeping us in if Leave wins. The discussion is about what the subsequent relationship with the EU might look like.Luckyguy1983 said:On topic, wow at the revelations in this thread. Really awful reading for Remain. What on earth is the point in anyone voting Remain if politicians keep us in regardless of the outcome?
The fact that their main proponents don't know what they want post-Leave from one day to the next, nor as we saw with M Gove, when they want to do it, doesn't detract from the main thrust of their argument: Vote Leave, Keep Foreigners Out.0 -
But at the same time, I think you'll find a pretty high correlation between Labour Leavers and not supporting the Argentine conflict.PlatoSaid said:
Many thanks for your archaeology.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Here are a few.
"Outside Number 10, junior ministers Tim Raison and Ken Clarke as well as Stephen Dorrell and Chris Patten were also expressing alarm; Dorrell for one saying he would only support the Task Force as a negotiating measure - and advocating a withdrawal if the military Junta in Argentina refused to negotiate."
- See more at: http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/thatcher-archive-reveals-deep-divisions-on-the-road-to-falklands-war#sthash.SyqbvL41.dpuf
Personally, and I speak as an Outer, I think it's pretty disgusting to try and claim that all Remainers would just want to hand over the Fawkland Islands to the Argentinians.0 -
The letter specifically says 'Supported by the EU". And it is interesting timing coming just before the referendum when we have heard not a peep for the last decade. I wonder how many other small businesses are getting the same letter?rcs1000 said:
Although the European Investment Bank bills themselves as "The EU Bank", I think they are owned by European governments and not the EU themselves. I also think the shareholder list (although I could be wrong) includes non-EU countries.Richard_Tyndall said:OT (sort of)
Interesting development this morning. As you might know I have my own Geology/Archaeology business with my wife who is also a geologist.
So after having had the business for 10 years and just 2 weeks before the EU referendum this morning for the first time ever my wife gets a letter from a company called Iwoca offering EU backed finance for my business. This company says the scheme is backed by the European Investment Bank and supported by the EU and trumpets the fact it has loaned £100 million to 4,500 businesses at low interest rates.
Am I being rather cynical in wondering why, after 10 years and not a peep from these people we are suddenly getting an offer of an EU loan 2 weeks before the referendum.0 -
The dam is busting. The great escape is on.Scott_P said:@britainelects: EU referendum poll:
Remain: 43% (-1)
Leave: 48% (+1)
(via ICM, online / 03 - 05 Jun)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6zwW7iWinrk0 -
HurstLlama said:
I note Texas' motto is "live free or die". Bit extreme, I'd probably be a bit more British and be "live free and feel a bit under the weather economically for a bit".
Just superb.
Perfect.0 -
Another 2-3% swing to Leave (that stabilises) and Leave have a genuine shot, IMHO.SeanT said:
LEAVE is definitely winning now.Scott_P said:@britainelects: EU referendum poll:
Remain: 43% (-1)
Leave: 48% (+1)
(via ICM, online / 03 - 05 Jun)
On the markets LEAVE has shortened from 4/1 to 2/1 in about three days.
I think it should be nearer 3/20 -
New HampshireHurstLlama said:I note Texas' motto is "live free or die". Bit extreme, I'd probably be a bit more British and be "live free and feel a bit under the weather economically for a bit".
Just superb.0 -
0
-
"We are Xenophobes, and we don't care..."TOPPING said:The fact that their main proponents don't know what they want post-Leave from one day to the next, nor as we saw with M Gove, when they want to do it, doesn't detract from the main thrust of their argument: Vote Leave, Keep Foreigners Out.
Where are the T-shirts?0 -
Yowser, and loads of last week's sceptical iPlayers won't be bothering again either.FrancisUrquhart said:Top Gear pulled in just 2.8 million viewers last night - down from 4.3million viewers last Sunday.
But remember folks FACT, it's a hit.
Awful figures.0 -
Mr. Rabbit, polls can change rapidly in a febrile atmosphere. In 2007, a couple of weeks was enough for a 10 point Labour lead to become a 10 point Conservative lead.
Mr. Urquhart, if it doesn't improve over the series, Evans will surely be tossed overboard. Twitter seemed to like Jenson Button's presenting prowess.0 -
I suspect that, by the Autumn, Boris will be Leave's new public enemy number one.Scott_P said:
It's quite entertainingStark_Dawning said:I think Leave are panicking. As the day of reckoning looms, they're suddenly realising that they need to provide a sensible alternative to EU membership, and they've no idea how.
"It's not up to us to decide what happens next, it will be up to our sovereign Parliament"
"OK, EFTA/EEA is the will of Parliament..."
BETRAYAL, CALUMNY, Off with their heads !!!!!!!!!0 -
Where will the British Alamo be, welshowl?welshowl said:
Yes I feel I am being forced to hit the "nuclear button" because I am just being given no real option (see my post down thread on politicians saying they'll do "X" and then just not even attempting or even reversing totally). Yes, there's always going to be compromise and areas of grey, it's real life, but I personally believe now (didn't pre negotiation - silly me) that Dave never remotely considered recommending "Leave", and his counter parties in the negotiation could smell it. He had a gun with no bullets, so they gave him bugger all.Bob__Sykes said:
Me too. But he didn't even try, and we have been forced into a "nuclear option" referendum process.welshowl said:
100% right. I would back that at once.DavidL said:If Cameron goes to Brussels after a Leave vote and comes back with an associate membership that allows some restraint on freedom of movement (whilst respecting all existing rights) and continued membership of the Single Market in exchange for a reasonable contribution (ie about half of what we are paying now) I would be genuinely ecstatic.
My only disappointment would be that he didn't get that in his original negotiations and spare us all this pain.
I didn't want meltdown and Brexit, I wanted a better and more productive relationship with our EU partners. I had rather thought Cameron did too....
To add insult to injury he didn't even say "sorry folks, not great but best I could do" , but instead decided to treat us like utter fools and pretend it was great ("I sure would"). You can't fool all the people all the time.
It's a sad state of affairs, I really only wanted a bit more compromise but we are now in a world of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse being threatened together with the slaughter of the first born if we dare to even think about stepping out of line. Well I won't be bought, or cowed. It will almost certainly cost me personally money short term, but there comes a point where being treated with contempt by those we elect is too much.
I note Texas' motto is "live free or die". Bit extreme, I'd probably be a bit more British and be "live free and feel a bit under the weather economically for a bit". But same end result.0 -
Oh well only 1500miles out!TOPPING said:
New HampshireHurstLlama said:I note Texas' motto is "live free or die". Bit extreme, I'd probably be a bit more British and be "live free and feel a bit under the weather economically for a bit".
Just superb.0 -
Come on mate, face up. Voting Leave is the only way you're going to get that.Bob__Sykes said:
Me too. But he didn't even try, and we have been forced into a "nuclear option" referendum process.welshowl said:
100% right. I would back that at once.DavidL said:If Cameron goes to Brussels after a Leave vote and comes back with an associate membership that allows some restraint on freedom of movement (whilst respecting all existing rights) and continued membership of the Single Market in exchange for a reasonable contribution (ie about half of what we are paying now) I would be genuinely ecstatic.
My only disappointment would be that he didn't get that in his original negotiations and spare us all this pain.
I didn't want meltdown and Brexit, I wanted a better and more productive relationship with our EU partners. I had rather thought Cameron did too....
History and experience shows that serious concessions are only ever made when the hand of the EU is forced.0 -
Indeed, Mr RCS; utter rubbishrcs1000 said:
But at the same time, I think you'll find a pretty high correlation between Labour Leavers and not supporting the Argentine conflict.PlatoSaid said:
Many thanks for your archaeology.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Here are a few.
"Outside Number 10, junior ministers Tim Raison and Ken Clarke as well as Stephen Dorrell and Chris Patten were also expressing alarm; Dorrell for one saying he would only support the Task Force as a negotiating measure - and advocating a withdrawal if the military Junta in Argentina refused to negotiate."
- See more at: http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/thatcher-archive-reveals-deep-divisions-on-the-road-to-falklands-war#sthash.SyqbvL41.dpuf
Personally, and I speak as an Outer, I think it's pretty disgusting to try and claim that all Remainers would just want to hand over the Fawkland Islands to the Argentinians.0 -
john_zims said:
@Wulfrun_Phil
'Looking at the detail of the YouGov poll, Remain should be very worried by the age breakdown and what it implies allowing for differential turnout. Overall, Leave has a net lead of 4% out of a sample of 3495, which amounts to 140 people more favouring Leave over Remain. Apply the same methodology to the age breakdown though, and you see a lead for Leave as follows:
+205 in the 65+
+138 for the 50-64s
- 30 for the 25-49s (i.e. Remain ahead)
- 162 for the 18-24s
(with +11 difference to +140 given rounding effects)
So if the 18-24s are stripped out of it, the 4% lead for Leave would grow to about 10%.
The question is, can the Remain camp rely on the propensity of 18-24s to vote being almost identical to that of 65+s, something that YouGov assume in the absence of any turnout filter.'
No it can't.
Many 18-24 year old are immigrants.
Does YouGov check to exclude these from their surveys?0 -
Mr P,
"Pro-Remain MPs are considering using their Commons majority to keep Britain inside the EU single market if there is a vote for Brexit, the BBC has learned .... The single market guarantees the free movement of goods, people, services and capital."
If it walks like an 'up yours voters," and swims like an "up yours voters," that's what it will be seen as.0 -
The government ran a campaign to identify 'A Motto for Britain' - and the nation of Boaty McBoatface rose magnificently to the challenge:HurstLlama said:I note Texas' motto is "live free or die". Bit extreme, I'd probably be a bit more British and be "live free and feel a bit under the weather economically for a bit".
Just superb.
'No Mottoes, Please, we're British'
And my favourite:
Dipso
Fatso
Asbo
Tesco0 -
Mr. P, that's unfair. I'm likely to vote Leave, and fully acknowledge the importance of Xenophon's writings.0
-
When you sign up to join the YouGov panel (or any of the internet panels) you have to answer a questionnaire which includes that.David_Evershed said:john_zims said:@Wulfrun_Phil
'Looking at the detail of the YouGov poll, Remain should be very worried by the age breakdown and what it implies allowing for differential turnout. Overall, Leave has a net lead of 4% out of a sample of 3495, which amounts to 140 people more favouring Leave over Remain. Apply the same methodology to the age breakdown though, and you see a lead for Leave as follows:
+205 in the 65+
+138 for the 50-64s
- 30 for the 25-49s (i.e. Remain ahead)
- 162 for the 18-24s
(with +11 difference to +140 given rounding effects)
So if the 18-24s are stripped out of it, the 4% lead for Leave would grow to about 10%.
The question is, can the Remain camp rely on the propensity of 18-24s to vote being almost identical to that of 65+s, something that YouGov assume in the absence of any turnout filter.'
No it can't.
Many 18-24 year old are immigrants.
Does YouGov check to exclude these from their surveys?0 -
It isn't. Oil and Gas does account for 51% of their exports but that is hardly a single-product economy.TOPPING said:
Nothing to do with them being a single-product economy? K.Richard_Tyndall said:
Because they only have to be concerned about their own interests not those of 27 other countries as well.TOPPING said:
Why do you think not being part of a huge trading bloc will get us better terms than being part of a huge trading bloc?Philip_Thompson said:
No, absolutely not.TOPPING said:
Robert does not formal acknowledgement of no ever closer union, no banking union, plus the EZ protection constitute de facto "associate membership"?rcs1000 said:
I think it would be very sensible for the EU to split into:williamglenn said:
At least in the sbasis.rcs1000 said:
It's in both sides interests for there to be as little disruption as possible, so I suspect EFTA/EEA would be on the table.TOPPING said:
Good luck with that.williamglenn said:I recall a long series of posts from Richard Tyndall arguing that the EU can't force us out of the EEA against our will. As this referendum is strictly about EU membership, a government so-minded could say that a Leave vote does not give a mandate to leave the single market anyway. A sizeable number of Brexiters have been making this very argument for a long time.
Aside from no Vote Leaver standing for no change on free movement, the EU has made it clear that for an economy the size of the UK, an EEA option is not feasible.
Eurozone
and
Associate Members
The Associate Members would be outside CAP, CFP, and the political structures. They would contribute in a small way, but would not receive regional development funds. They would respect the Four Freedoms, but would be allowed to discriminate in favour of their own citizens.
Whether that happens or not is another matter altogether.
What else would you put in and assuming you need the ECJ to opine on Single Market rules?
We are still obliged to implement 100% of EU laws, versus the 4% Switzerland does.
We are still forbidden from unilaterally lowering tariffs or entering trade agreements with the 93% of the world not in the EU. Unlike Switzerland and Norway.
We are still under the jurisdiction of the ECJ while Switzerland and Norway etc are not.
Why do you think not being a part of a banking union makes up for having our hands tied with 93% of the world's population?
Why do you suppose it is relatively easy for Norway to conclude trade deals?0 -
Putting your PR hat on, who should they have had to lead the REMAIN campaign from the start? For me it should have been Alan Johnson (or similar) fronting the govt pr machine for 19 weeks. That way they would have got through to the key Labour voters with a friendly face. Today Cameron is on stage with some lefties who (IMHO) do not connect well with Labour's working class voters.PlatoSaid said:
Appealing to Guardian readers didn't work before either.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Cameron tries to shore himself up by being surrounded by lefties. Desperate stuff. 16 campaigning days after today.chestnut said:It looks like Remain have chucked in the towel as most comments are about trying to manage the aftermath of defeat.
The idea that tweaks and manoeuvring will suffice is very reminiscent of Scottish Labour in winter 2014.
0 -
I don't think any of my businesses have received such a letter, but I'm happy to check. I do know that the EIB lends across the whole EEA, so even if we do go for Brexit, you might be able to get a low interest loan.Richard_Tyndall said:
The letter specifically says 'Supported by the EU". And it is interesting timing coming just before the referendum when we have heard not a peep for the last decade. I wonder how many other small businesses are getting the same letter?rcs1000 said:
Although the European Investment Bank bills themselves as "The EU Bank", I think they are owned by European governments and not the EU themselves. I also think the shareholder list (although I could be wrong) includes non-EU countries.Richard_Tyndall said:OT (sort of)
Interesting development this morning. As you might know I have my own Geology/Archaeology business with my wife who is also a geologist.
So after having had the business for 10 years and just 2 weeks before the EU referendum this morning for the first time ever my wife gets a letter from a company called Iwoca offering EU backed finance for my business. This company says the scheme is backed by the European Investment Bank and supported by the EU and trumpets the fact it has loaned £100 million to 4,500 businesses at low interest rates.
Am I being rather cynical in wondering why, after 10 years and not a peep from these people we are suddenly getting an offer of an EU loan 2 weeks before the referendum.0 -
They'll probably end up with the same solution to Have I Got News For You after they sacked Angus Deayton in a similar cock up.SeanT said:
CatastrophicFrancisUrquhart said:Top Gear pulled in just 2.8 million viewers last night - down from 4.3million viewers last Sunday.
But remember folks FACT, it's a hit.
They have to save the show if they can. Somehow. It's worth too much. I reckon Evans will go at the end of the season
The show will never recover anyway and BBC has just handed the opening battle for control of the Anglosphere media world to Amazon.0 -
"We are Xenophobes, and we don't care..."
Remainers world view:
Ukrainian independence: Plucky eastern Europeans wanting to get out from under the yoke of Russia.
UK Independence: A plot by a country stuffed with literally millions of Xenophobes and racists who have only accepted a few million people from overseas in recent years, the racist scum.0 -
What I find so grimly amusing is that the BBC big wigs built the entire show around Evans - despite almost everyone saying NOOOOOOO!!! from the off.SeanT said:
CatastrophicFrancisUrquhart said:Top Gear pulled in just 2.8 million viewers last night - down from 4.3million viewers last Sunday.
But remember folks FACT, it's a hit.
They have to save the show if they can. Somehow. It's worth too much. I reckon Evans will go at the end of the season
We've had dozens of leaks, rumours and line-up changes = none of them complimentary about him. And now the show is live, the audience still has the same opinion and leaving in droves. He was the wrong choice and remains the wrong choice.0 -
There's also rakfisk.Richard_Tyndall said:
It isn't. Oil and Gas does account for 51% of their exports but that is hardly a single-product economy.0 -
welshowl said:
Oh well only 1500miles out!TOPPING said:
New HampshireHurstLlama said:I note Texas' motto is "live free or die". Bit extreme, I'd probably be a bit more British and be "live free and feel a bit under the weather economically for a bit".
Just superb.
The local joke always being that while New Hampshire's motto is Live Free or Die, neighbouring Maine is known as "Vacationland".0 -
FrancisUrquhart said:
Top Gear pulled in just 2.8 million viewers last night - down from 4.3million viewers last Sunday.
But remember folks FACT, it's a hit.
Top Gear spending far too much time with Star in a Reasonably Priced Car which is DULL, DULL, DULL.0 -
Wasn't the winner -- Mustn't grumble -- ?CarlottaVance said:
The government ran a campaign to identify 'A Motto for Britain' - and the nation of Boaty McBoatface rose magnificently to the challenge:HurstLlama said:I note Texas' motto is "live free or die". Bit extreme, I'd probably be a bit more British and be "live free and feel a bit under the weather economically for a bit".
Just superb.
'No Mottoes, Please, we're British'
And my favourite:
Dipso
Fatso
Asbo
Tesco0 -
To be fair, I don't think the EU is likely to send troops in and encourage London and the South East to secede.taffys said:"We are Xenophobes, and we don't care..."
Remainers world view:
Ukrainian independence: Plucky eastern Europeans wanting to get out from under the yoke of Russia.
UK Independence: A plot by a country stuffed with literally millions of Xenophobes and racists who have only accepted a few million people from overseas in recent years, the racist scum.0 -
Teslas must be a big part of their imports judging by the number of them you see around the place.rcs1000 said:
There's also rakfisk.Richard_Tyndall said:
It isn't. Oil and Gas does account for 51% of their exports but that is hardly a single-product economy.0 -
I was surprised to see that machinery and transport equipment account for 23% of their exports. Norway never struck me before as a heavy industry manufacturer. Daft really. It should be given it has free electricity and access to good reserves of iron ore and mineral wealth.rcs1000 said:
There's also rakfisk.Richard_Tyndall said:
It isn't. Oil and Gas does account for 51% of their exports but that is hardly a single-product economy.
Edit to add the link
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/norway/exports0 -
Miss Plato, it's because the BBC didn't understand why Top Gear worked. It was three ageing blokes cocking about and having a laugh. The chemistry was the key.
Mr. Glenn, it could. The BBC had a good presenting trio for F1, and Jenson Button appears to have gone down well (and *may* not have a drive next year).0 -
Indeed. Though to be honest mine is not the sort of business that needs to take on debt as our overheads are very low.rcs1000 said:
I don't think any of my businesses have received such a letter, but I'm happy to check. I do know that the EIB lends across the whole EEA, so even if we do go for Brexit, you might be able to get a low interest loan.Richard_Tyndall said:
The letter specifically says 'Supported by the EU". And it is interesting timing coming just before the referendum when we have heard not a peep for the last decade. I wonder how many other small businesses are getting the same letter?rcs1000 said:
Although the European Investment Bank bills themselves as "The EU Bank", I think they are owned by European governments and not the EU themselves. I also think the shareholder list (although I could be wrong) includes non-EU countries.Richard_Tyndall said:OT (sort of)
Interesting development this morning. As you might know I have my own Geology/Archaeology business with my wife who is also a geologist.
So after having had the business for 10 years and just 2 weeks before the EU referendum this morning for the first time ever my wife gets a letter from a company called Iwoca offering EU backed finance for my business. This company says the scheme is backed by the European Investment Bank and supported by the EU and trumpets the fact it has loaned £100 million to 4,500 businesses at low interest rates.
Am I being rather cynical in wondering why, after 10 years and not a peep from these people we are suddenly getting an offer of an EU loan 2 weeks before the referendum.
It is simply the timing I find amusing.0 -
There's quite a big oil & gas shipbuilding industry isn't there?Richard_Tyndall said:
I was surprised to see that machinery and transport equipment account for 23% of their exports. Norway never struck me before as a heavy industry manufacturer. Daft really. It should be given it has free electricity and access to good reserves of iron ore and mineral wealth.rcs1000 said:
There's also rakfisk.Richard_Tyndall said:
It isn't. Oil and Gas does account for 51% of their exports but that is hardly a single-product economy.
Edit to add the link
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/norway/exports0 -
Isn't that New Hampshire ?HurstLlama said:I note Texas' motto is "live free or die". Bit extreme, I'd probably be a bit more British and be "live free and feel a bit under the weather economically for a bit".
Just superb.
Texas is "Friendship"0 -
I think Scott is referring to an ambivalence to the Noble Gas.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. P, that's unfair. I'm likely to vote Leave, and fully acknowledge the importance of Xenophon's writings.
0 -
I'd have gone for someone like Johnson - reassuring, nice on the telly as fodder. But he's no intellectual heft. I'd have picked Hillary Benn, even though his dad disagreed - he could have pivoted that as knowing the other argument well.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Putting your PR hat on, who should they have had to lead the REMAIN campaign from the start? For me it should have been Alan Johnson (or similar) fronting the govt pr machine for 19 weeks. That way they would have got through to the key Labour voters with a friendly face. Today Cameron is on stage with some lefties who (IMHO) do not connect well with Labour's working class voters.PlatoSaid said:
Appealing to Guardian readers didn't work before either.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Cameron tries to shore himself up by being surrounded by lefties. Desperate stuff. 16 campaigning days after today.chestnut said:It looks like Remain have chucked in the towel as most comments are about trying to manage the aftermath of defeat.
The idea that tweaks and manoeuvring will suffice is very reminiscent of Scottish Labour in winter 2014.
But he was a non-starter given his leadership rival credentials.0 -
BBC bigwigs are overly driven by 'talent', which doesn't necessarily mean 'talent'. You cannot simply drop a star into a format and expect it to work. But then the Beeb top brass probably never really understood Top Gear's appeal anyway. Like all great art, it was about several things, and about balance. They've lost the balance between the presenters, between humour and factual, and between audience and presenters. And they expected it to remain a hit?PlatoSaid said:
What I find so grimly amusing is that the BBC big wigs built the entire show around Evans - despite almost everyone saying NOOOOOOO!!! from the off.SeanT said:
CatastrophicFrancisUrquhart said:Top Gear pulled in just 2.8 million viewers last night - down from 4.3million viewers last Sunday.
But remember folks FACT, it's a hit.
They have to save the show if they can. Somehow. It's worth too much. I reckon Evans will go at the end of the season
We've had dozens of leaks, rumours and line-up changes = none of them complimentary about him. And now the show is live, the audience still has the same opinion and leaving in droves. He was the wrong choice and remains the wrong choice.0 -
@mrianleslie: These polls forcing me to consider that Leave might win, against all instinct. Now I'm wondering whether Miliband will have to resign as PM. 0
-
Not really. All the rigs and platforms along with the tankers seem to be built in the Middle East or Far East these days. Very little is done in either the UK or Norway apart from maintenance.rcs1000 said:
There's quite a big oil & gas shipbuilding industry isn't there?Richard_Tyndall said:
I was surprised to see that machinery and transport equipment account for 23% of their exports. Norway never struck me before as a heavy industry manufacturer. Daft really. It should be given it has free electricity and access to good reserves of iron ore and mineral wealth.rcs1000 said:
There's also rakfisk.Richard_Tyndall said:
It isn't. Oil and Gas does account for 51% of their exports but that is hardly a single-product economy.
Edit to add the link
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/norway/exports0 -
That's how negative campaigning works. The scare story last week was immigration. It moved the polls about 4/6 points. Next week it's likely to be cast into the deep blue sea without a lifejacket....TheWhiteRabbit said:
I don't see how the last two and a half weeks are going to be sufficient to create a Remain lead any more than 2 or 3 points.Roger said:
No. Two and a half weeks of campaigning by which time those making a knee jerk reaction to the immgration figures might have reconsideredTheWhiteRabbit said:Remain now deeply reliant on a swing in the polling station to see them through...
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I never understood why they havent found a permanent host for HIGNFY. The guest host rarely have the level rapport and can be really hit and miss, some very good, some not so. Because of that, it isn't required viewing like it used to be in the Urquhart household.williamglenn said:
They'll probably end up with the same solution to Have I Got News For You after they sacked Angus Deayton in a similar cock up.SeanT said:
CatastrophicFrancisUrquhart said:Top Gear pulled in just 2.8 million viewers last night - down from 4.3million viewers last Sunday.
But remember folks FACT, it's a hit.
They have to save the show if they can. Somehow. It's worth too much. I reckon Evans will go at the end of the season
The show will never recover anyway and BBC has just handed the opening battle for control of the Anglosphere media world to Amazon.0 -
They said there were 6m voters not registered this morning on the radio.SeanT said:These reports of high potential turnout and massive registration numbers chime with my sense. People are engaging with this, in a way they normally don't, even at a GE
I reckon we could see turnout over 70%. Maybe well over.
We presume that favours REMAIN but does it? How many are usually-apathetic WWCs voting LEAVE to kick the Tories AND stop immigration?
For a left wing WWC voter, a LEAVE vote is a no brainer
Have they missed it? Even if not, I wouldn't expect too many to make the deadline if it's tomorrow..0 -
I understand Alex Salmond will debate with Boris Johnson
Never has the phrase "twa cheeks of the same erse" been more appropriate.
Especially when BoJo keeps quoting Eck's "best" lines at him...0
