Well hopefully nowhere. I don't want any kind of antagonistic relationship and I don't see Boris as Davey Crockett (though he's got his own looky likey hat without even having a hat).
This is all a dreadful miscalculation by Dave/George and the Continentals. We don't have an unreasonable case in that rigidly adhering to freedom of movement a la 1957 might just need a bit of modification in 2016, given the facts on the ground. But our lot didn't have the balls to make our case forcefully, and their lot didn't take us seriously hence the almighty mess that we are in with even "moderates" (I like to think of myself as such - others can judge) being forced to make hard hard choices. The history of weasel words on Lisbon and the ludicrous threats since have hardened my resolve though, almost despite myself.
One irony is I'm in Paris on the 24th, where I shall enjoy all the delights of its sights and sounds and atmosphere, and shall doubtless converse with the locals in their own tongue. Millwall tendency I ain't, but I know which way I am voting.
What if the turnout is well under 50%, and the majority for Leave is tiny? My instinct is still to say; that was the result, live with it but as a convinced Remainer I’d be seriously p****d off.
Wouldn't be as bad as a 50.1% win for Remain on a 90% turn out, which would mean the country is irrevocable split on the subject and it might be time to consider partition
I note Texas' motto is "live free or die". Bit extreme, I'd probably be a bit more British and be "live free and feel a bit under the weather economically for a bit".
These reports of high potential turnout and massive registration numbers chime with my sense. People are engaging with this, in a way they normally don't, even at a GE
I reckon we could see turnout over 70%. Maybe well over.
We presume that favours REMAIN but does it? How many are usually-apathetic WWCs voting LEAVE to kick the Tories AND stop immigration?
For a left wing WWC voter, a LEAVE vote is a no brainer
The massive registration numbers are simply everyone who has moved home in the last year reregistering.
But at the same time, I think you'll find a pretty high correlation between Labour Leavers and not supporting the Argentine conflict.
Personally, and I speak as an Outer, I think it's pretty disgusting to try and claim that all Remainers would just want to hand over the Fawkland Islands to the Argentinians.
Heath also proposed a negotiated settlement at the time.
Top Gear pulled in just 2.8 million viewers last night - down from 4.3million viewers last Sunday.
But remember folks FACT, it's a hit.
Catastrophic
They have to save the show if they can. Somehow. It's worth too much. I reckon Evans will go at the end of the season
What I find so grimly amusing is that the BBC big wigs built the entire show around Evans - despite almost everyone saying NOOOOOOO!!! from the off.
We've had dozens of leaks, rumours and line-up changes = none of them complimentary about him. And now the show is live, the audience still has the same opinion and leaving in droves. He was the wrong choice and remains the wrong choice.
Part of the reason why Evans was supposedly picked is his undeniable passion for cars and the extent of his knowledge.
That was never ever what made Top Gear successful. Give any decent presenter a script and some research and they will be able to appear as knowledgeable as anyone else within the confines of the show.
What made Top Gear under Clarkson, Hammond and May successful was that they were 3 middle aged mates who bantered and messed around. The cars were a good addition, but ultimately superfluous.
I do wonder whether they will be able to catch lightning in a bottle on The Grand Tour.
Really not seeing the problem here. Voters have a choice between leaving the EU and staying in. No one is saying that MPs will block leaving if that is the referendum outcome.
Whether we stay in the Common Market (or the EEA) is not on the ballot paper. That's for MPs to decide (or another referendum). I thought Leavers were fans of Parliament asserting its sovereignty?
@MrHarryCole: Asked Boris to explain fall in £ after leave poll lead. "The pound will go where it will in the short term". Concession of short term pain
This why it would be politically possible for MPs to vote for an economic agreement.
@bbclaurak: Gove now claiming EU schengen (which we re not in) 'actively abets terrorism'
Like it or not, reasonable or not, Leave are going on the attack.
You have to love it. After weeks of bullshit about World War 3, Economic Armageddon and Refugee camps in Kent, all of which is perfectly acceptable, Leave dare to suggest that the freedom of movement within the EU, and especially the Schengen area is an aid to terrorism, a view supported by just about every serious security expert that has been asked, and apparently that is fear mongering and unfair.
Top Gear pulled in just 2.8 million viewers last night - down from 4.3million viewers last Sunday.
But remember folks FACT, it's a hit.
Catastrophic
They have to save the show if they can. Somehow. It's worth too much. I reckon Evans will go at the end of the season
They'll probably end up with the same solution to Have I Got News For You after they sacked Angus Deayton in a similar cock up.
The show will never recover anyway and BBC has just handed the opening battle for control of the Anglosphere media world to Amazon.
Yep. They've Ratnered the brand in two weeks, and it will be extremely hard to repair, probably impossible.
I guess they could argue TG only had 2-3 seasons left in it anyway, but that's still £200m they're not going to see.
I reckoned 12 months ago that we'd see within 5 years new episodes of Top Gear on BBC2 hosted by Clarkson, May and Hammond, and I remain of that view.
I don't expect the Amazon venture to be a massive success, if I'm honest, at least not enough to justify the exorbitant sums invested in it - and with an online UK audience there in the high hundreds of thousands probably, only a tiny proportion legitimately paying and watching worldwide via Amazon of the 300m+ who watched Top Gear, and the lack of visibility the 3 of them will have in the UK, coupled with the inevitable collapse of the Evans re-tread version, means I can see them "coming home" to a huge fanfare and popular acclaim once the dust has settled....
It feels like Andrew has been reading PB! That's the argument a lot of is have been making for a while, they need to federalise and we don't want to be in the super state.
I'm missing OGH and what he thinks we should now be betting on. LEAVE with Turnout to be >65% on offer at 6/1 from Ladbrokes now looks to offer some kind of value.
Oh and yes, I admit, I have previously backed the opposite in both fields, i.e. REMAIN with Turnout to be <65% ..... that's how confused I've become! DYOR (more than ever)
Top Gear pulled in just 2.8 million viewers last night - down from 4.3million viewers last Sunday.
But remember folks FACT, it's a hit.
Catastrophic
They have to save the show if they can. Somehow. It's worth too much. I reckon Evans will go at the end of the season
They'll probably end up with the same solution to Have I Got News For You after they sacked Angus Deayton in a similar cock up.
The show will never recover anyway and BBC has just handed the opening battle for control of the Anglosphere media world to Amazon.
Yep. They've Ratnered the brand in two weeks, and it will be extremely hard to repair, probably impossible.
I guess they could argue TG only had 2-3 seasons left in it anyway, but that's still £200m they're not going to see.
The new set-up might sell better overseas than the previous presenters. That's why it has been Americanised and made less edgy.
However, it might only work short term if it works at all.
Nah. The reaction on Twitter in America was even WORSE than in the UK, when the new series aired on BBC America
The American viewers didn't even like Matt Le Blanc.
Basically, people around the world liked Top Gear for the same reasons people in the UK liked it. Clarkson was funny, the chemistry was endearing, the mild middle aged edginess was refreshing, and the guys really knew about cars and engines and history and boys stuff.
All that's gone.
They can always watch US Top Gear....ohhhhhhhh....it is like old Top Gear, minus absolutely everything that was good about it.
But at the same time, I think you'll find a pretty high correlation between Labour Leavers and not supporting the Argentine conflict.
Personally, and I speak as an Outer, I think it's pretty disgusting to try and claim that all Remainers would just want to hand over the Fawkland Islands to the Argentinians.
Maybe that applies to more of the staunch europhiles in the Conservative party at the time? As to Labour, Michael Foot was a patriot and a defender against military aggression.
@rcs1000 re Melissa Kidd (of Redburn and Lombard I assume), I have read her outlook and there isn't a lot to disagree with, but as you know I'm not particularly bullish on the near to medium term outlook, I actually think Leave will force us to rebalance away from debt fueled consumption led growth to investment and production led growth, it's one of the reasons I'm in favour despite the short term uncertainty and headline GDP reduction that may follow.
Top Gear pulled in just 2.8 million viewers last night - down from 4.3million viewers last Sunday.
But remember folks FACT, it's a hit.
Catastrophic
They have to save the show if they can. Somehow. It's worth too much. I reckon Evans will go at the end of the season
What I find so grimly amusing is that the BBC big wigs built the entire show around Evans - despite almost everyone saying NOOOOOOO!!! from the off.
We've had dozens of leaks, rumours and line-up changes = none of them complimentary about him. And now the show is live, the audience still has the same opinion and leaving in droves. He was the wrong choice and remains the wrong choice.
Part of the reason why Evans was supposedly picked is his undeniable passion for cars and the extent of his knowledge.
That was never ever what made Top Gear successful. Give any decent presenter a script and some research and they will be able to appear as knowledgeable as anyone else within the confines of the show.
What made Top Gear under Clarkson, Hammond and May successful was that they were 3 middle aged mates who bantered and messed around. The cars were a good addition, but ultimately superfluous.
I do wonder whether they will be able to catch lightning in a bottle on The Grand Tour.
I'm very puzzled why so many appear thrilled that Top Gear might be failing? Posters are literally falling over each other to say how pathetic the show is. Is Chris Evans not liked or is it a longing to have Clarkson back?. I've no interst in cars (other than to film them for money) so what's the answer?????
What if the turnout is well under 50%, and the majority for Leave is tiny? My instinct is still to say; that was the result, live with it but as a convinced Remainer I’d be seriously p****d off.
You'd be able to hear Polly Toynbee screaming about how small a share of the electorate Leave's 'mandate' was, at a distance of 1000 miles.
FPT. A first post by 'RealBritain' from the end of the last thread.
RealBritain Posts: 1 9:16AM
Roger said:
» show previous quotes "It is a deplorable indightment of the British people as much as the leaers promoting it. Their whole campaign is based on xenophobia and that's how it will be seen around the world. A reputation which Britain has built up over centuries will be lost in a single day"
RealBritain
It is grim and depressing. If people vote for a campaign that is openly, unabashedly xenophobic, and which ranges from campaigning on "foreign criminals" to ther prospect of sex attacks on British women if we stay in the EU, this country will deserve absolutely everything it gets from the economic disaster of Brexit.
I agree with Roger (and I never thought I would say that) and williamglenn and a few others on this site. Leave winning would be the most depressing election result in my lifetime and the consequences for our country and the population at large don't bear thinking about. On the plus side, I am sure we can make a fortune printing "DON'T BLAME ME...I VOTED REMAIN" merchandise.
The UK was a successful and prosperous democracy prior to joining the EU, and it will remain a prosperous and successful democracy if it leaves the EU.
Really? The Sick Man of Europe was successful and prosperous?
Top Gear pulled in just 2.8 million viewers last night - down from 4.3million viewers last Sunday.
But remember folks FACT, it's a hit.
Catastrophic
They have to save the show if they can. Somehow. It's worth too much. I reckon Evans will go at the end of the season
What I find so grimly amusing is that the BBC big wigs built the entire show around Evans - despite almost everyone saying NOOOOOOO!!! from the off.
We've had dozens of leaks, rumours and line-up changes = none of them complimentary about him. And now the show is live, the audience still has the same opinion and leaving in droves. He was the wrong choice and remains the wrong choice.
Part of the reason why Evans was supposedly picked is his undeniable passion for cars and the extent of his knowledge.
That was never ever what made Top Gear successful. Give any decent presenter a script and some research and they will be able to appear as knowledgeable as anyone else within the confines of the show.
What made Top Gear under Clarkson, Hammond and May successful was that they were 3 middle aged mates who bantered and messed around. The cars were a good addition, but ultimately superfluous.
I do wonder whether they will be able to catch lightning in a bottle on The Grand Tour.
I'm very puzzled why so many appear thrilled that Top Gear might be failing? Posters are literally falling over each other to say how pathetic the show is. Is Chris Evans not liked or is it a longing to have Clarkson back?. I've no interst in cars (other than to film them for money) so what's the answer?????
Clarkson is famously a Remainer. Such people exude authority and reassurance. It's no wonder he's missed.
Really not seeing the problem here. Voters have a choice between leaving the EU and staying in. No one is saying that MPs will block leaving if that is the referendum outcome.
Whether we stay in the Common Market (or the EEA) is not on the ballot paper. That's for MPs to decide (or another referendum). I thought Leavers were fans of Parliament asserting its sovereignty?
I am a leaver, and as long as we leave, after proper negotiation as per the Lisbon Treaty, I will be quite content for Parliament to decide what our future relationship will be. The key point being that if HMG negotiate something that the electorate do not like we can vote the buggers out.
Bit of a cheap and cheerful methodology for creating a poll of polls counting the last 6 and not caring that the pollsters included vary considerably between data points. Remain's lead constricting to almost zero on a fairly regular monthly basis and then recovering which, to my eyes, suggests pollsters reporting at this stage of the month may be a more Leave friendly?
These reports of high potential turnout and massive registration numbers chime with my sense. People are engaging with this, in a way they normally don't, even at a GE
I reckon we could see turnout over 70%. Maybe well over.
We presume that favours REMAIN but does it? How many are usually-apathetic WWCs voting LEAVE to kick the Tories AND stop immigration?
For a left wing WWC voter, a LEAVE vote is a no brainer
True, although the other traditionally apathetic group is youngsters who are pro-EU, so it'd depend on which group saw their turnout rise most (as well as the internal split).
My guess is that a 70% turnout would favour Remain; that it really will be tough to shift the WWC voters and they'd only start to haul things back once the turn things back once the turnout goes topside of 75%.
Top Gear pulled in just 2.8 million viewers last night - down from 4.3million viewers last Sunday.
But remember folks FACT, it's a hit.
Catastrophic
They have to save the show if they can. Somehow. It's worth too much. I reckon Evans will go at the end of the season
What I find so grimly amusing is that the BBC big wigs built the entire show around Evans - despite almost everyone saying NOOOOOOO!!! from the off.
We've had dozens of leaks, rumours and line-up changes = none of them complimentary about him. And now the show is live, the audience still has the same opinion and leaving in droves. He was the wrong choice and remains the wrong choice.
Part of the reason why Evans was supposedly picked is his undeniable passion for cars and the extent of his knowledge.
That was never ever what made Top Gear successful. Give any decent presenter a script and some research and they will be able to appear as knowledgeable as anyone else within the confines of the show.
What made Top Gear under Clarkson, Hammond and May successful was that they were 3 middle aged mates who bantered and messed around. The cars were a good addition, but ultimately superfluous.
I do wonder whether they will be able to catch lightning in a bottle on The Grand Tour.
I'm very puzzled why so many appear thrilled that Top Gear might be failing? Posters are literally falling over each other to say how pathetic the show is. Is Chris Evans not liked or is it a longing to have Clarkson back?. I've no interst in cars (other than to film them for money) so what's the answer?????
I've not met a single person who like Evans. I'd rate that as the top reason for wishing it to fail as it gets him off the TV quicker.
Top Gear pulled in just 2.8 million viewers last night - down from 4.3million viewers last Sunday.
But remember folks FACT, it's a hit.
Catastrophic
They have to save the show if they can. Somehow. It's worth too much. I reckon Evans will go at the end of the season
What I find so grimly amusing is that the BBC big wigs built the entire show around Evans - despite almost everyone saying NOOOOOOO!!! from the off.
We've had dozens of leaks, rumours and line-up changes = none of them complimentary about him. And now the show is live, the audience still has the same opinion and leaving in droves. He was the wrong choice and remains the wrong choice.
Part of the reason why Evans was supposedly picked is his undeniable passion for cars and the extent of his knowledge.
That was never ever what made Top Gear successful. Give any decent presenter a script and some research and they will be able to appear as knowledgeable as anyone else within the confines of the show.
What made Top Gear under Clarkson, Hammond and May successful was that they were 3 middle aged mates who bantered and messed around. The cars were a good addition, but ultimately superfluous.
I do wonder whether they will be able to catch lightning in a bottle on The Grand Tour.
I'm very puzzled why so many appear thrilled that Top Gear might be failing? Posters are literally falling over each other to say how pathetic the show is. Is Chris Evans not liked or is it a longing to have Clarkson back?. I've no interst in cars (other than to film them for money) so what's the answer?????
Clarkson is famously a Remainer. Such people exude authority and reassurance. It's no wonder he's missed.
Bravo.
If Remain could persuade Clarkson to do something high-profile for them it would take the wind out of the other side's sails.
What if the turnout is well under 50%, and the majority for Leave is tiny? My instinct is still to say; that was the result, live with it but as a convinced Remainer I’d be seriously p****d off.
Wouldn't be as bad as a 50.1% win for Remain on a 90% turn out, which would mean the country is irrevocable split on the subject and it might be time to consider partition
He is doing what websites do when they claim ridiculous figures. Somebody clicked, they clicked through, count it, count it, ...but boss they only remained on the site for 5 seconds, count it....they have clicked refresh....count it again, count it again...but boss they left after another 5 seconds.
Top Gear pulled in just 2.8 million viewers last night - down from 4.3million viewers last Sunday.
But remember folks FACT, it's a hit.
Catastrophic
They have to save the show if they can. Somehow. It's worth too much. I reckon Evans will go at the end of the season
What I find so grimly amusing is that the BBC big wigs built the entire show around Evans - despite almost everyone saying NOOOOOOO!!! from the off.
We've had dozens of leaks, rumours and line-up changes = none of them complimentary about him. And now the show is live, the audience still has the same opinion and leaving in droves. He was the wrong choice and remains the wrong choice.
Part of the reason why Evans was supposedly picked is his undeniable passion for cars and the extent of his knowledge.
That was never ever what made Top Gear successful. Give any decent presenter a script and some research and they will be able to appear as knowledgeable as anyone else within the confines of the show.
What made Top Gear under Clarkson, Hammond and May successful was that they were 3 middle aged mates who bantered and messed around. The cars were a good addition, but ultimately superfluous.
I do wonder whether they will be able to catch lightning in a bottle on The Grand Tour.
I'm very puzzled why so many appear thrilled that Top Gear might be failing? Posters are literally falling over each other to say how pathetic the show is. Is Chris Evans not liked or is it a longing to have Clarkson back?. I've no interst in cars (other than to film them for money) so what's the answer?????
Roger, who would you have had to front the REMAIN campaign? Knowing what we now know about voters regard for Cameron etc.
But at the same time, I think you'll find a pretty high correlation between Labour Leavers and not supporting the Argentine conflict.
Personally, and I speak as an Outer, I think it's pretty disgusting to try and claim that all Remainers would just want to hand over the Fawkland Islands to the Argentinians.
Maybe that applies to more of the staunch europhiles in the Conservative party at the time? As to Labour, Michael Foot was a patriot and a defender against military aggression.
As a rule I find EUphiles much more inclined to treacherous views. Not to say they are all willing to sell out this nation for EU jobs like Kinnock, of course.
FPT. A first post by 'RealBritain' from the end of the last thread.
RealBritain Posts: 1 9:16AM
Roger said:
» show previous quotes "It is a deplorable indightment of the British people as much as the leaers promoting it. Their whole campaign is based on xenophobia and that's how it will be seen around the world. A reputation which Britain has built up over centuries will be lost in a single day"
RealBritain
It is grim and depressing. If people vote for a campaign that is openly, unabashedly xenophobic, and which ranges from campaigning on "foreign criminals" to ther prospect of sex attacks on British women if we stay in the EU, this country will deserve absolutely everything it gets from the economic disaster of Brexit.
I agree with Roger (and I never thought I would say that) and williamglenn and a few others on this site. Leave winning would be the most depressing election result in my lifetime and the consequences for our country and the population at large don't bear thinking about. On the plus side, I am sure we can make a fortune printing "DON'T BLAME ME...I VOTED REMAIN" merchandise.
The UK was a successful and prosperous democracy prior to joining the EU, and it will remain a prosperous and successful democracy if it leaves the EU.
Really? The Sick Man of Europe was successful and prosperous?
Viewed over anything other than the very short term, certainly. A few years of relatively poor economic performance won't turn a county into a basket case.
Top Gear pulled in just 2.8 million viewers last night - down from 4.3million viewers last Sunday.
But remember folks FACT, it's a hit.
Catastrophic
They have to save the show if they can. Somehow. It's worth too much. I reckon Evans will go at the end of the season
They'll probably end up with the same solution to Have I Got News For You after they sacked Angus Deayton in a similar cock up.
The show will never recover anyway and BBC has just handed the opening battle for control of the Anglosphere media world to Amazon.
Yep. They've Ratnered the brand in two weeks, and it will be extremely hard to repair, probably impossible.
I guess they could argue TG only had 2-3 seasons left in it anyway, but that's still £200m they're not going to see.
The new set-up might sell better overseas than the previous presenters. That's why it has been Americanised and made less edgy.
However, it might only work short term if it works at all.
Sorry you what...which market doesn't old Top Gear sell well in?
BBC only gets under £40m a year from oversaes sales of Top Gear. Seems low to me.
It more than that, but that is an aside...
The motoring show can lay claim to being the most popular factual television programme in the world – complete with a Guinness Book of World Records entry – watched by an audience of 350 million in 214 territories.
As a money spinner, Top Gear outperforms the clutch of mega-brands that the BBC considers to be its international crown jewels: Doctor Who, BBC Earth and Dancing with the Stars (Strictly Come Dancing in the UK).
What if the turnout is well under 50%, and the majority for Leave is tiny? My instinct is still to say; that was the result, live with it but as a convinced Remainer I’d be seriously p****d off.
Wouldn't be as bad as a 50.1% win for Remain on a 90% turn out, which would mean the country is irrevocable split on the subject and it might be time to consider partition
FPT. A first post by 'RealBritain' from the end of the last thread.
RealBritain Posts: 1 9:16AM
Roger said:
» show previous quotes "It is a deplorable indightment of the British people as much as the leaers promoting it. Their whole campaign is based on xenophobia and that's how it will be seen around the world. A reputation which Britain has built up over centuries will be lost in a single day"
RealBritain
It is grim and depressing. If people vote for a campaign that is openly, unabashedly xenophobic, and which ranges from campaigning on "foreign criminals" to ther prospect of sex attacks on British women if we stay in the EU, this country will deserve absolutely everything it gets from the economic disaster of Brexit.
I agree with Roger (and I never thought I would say that) and williamglenn and a few others on this site. Leave winning would be the most depressing election result in my lifetime and the consequences for our country and the population at large don't bear thinking about. On the plus side, I am sure we can make a fortune printing "DON'T BLAME ME...I VOTED REMAIN" merchandise.
The UK was a successful and prosperous democracy prior to joining the EU, and it will remain a prosperous and successful democracy if it leaves the EU.
Really? The Sick Man of Europe was successful and prosperous?
Viewed over anything other than the very short term, certainly. A few years of relatively poor economic performance won't turn a county into a basket case.
But a lost empire, a bankrupt state, a union dominated economy, a civil war over part of the country all might. The UK was in a bad way.
Top Gear pulled in just 2.8 million viewers last night - down from 4.3million viewers last Sunday.
But remember folks FACT, it's a hit.
Catastrophic
They have to save the show if they can. Somehow. It's worth too much. I reckon Evans will go at the end of the season
What I find so grimly amusing is that the BBC big wigs built the entire show around Evans - despite almost everyone saying NOOOOOOO!!! from the off.
We've had dozens of leaks, rumours and line-up changes = none of them complimentary about him. And now the show is live, the audience still has the same opinion and leaving in droves. He was the wrong choice and remains the wrong choice.
Part of the reason why Evans was supposedly picked is his undeniable passion for cars and the extent of his knowledge.
That was never ever what made Top Gear successful. Give any decent presenter a script and some research and they will be able to appear as knowledgeable as anyone else within the confines of the show.
What made Top Gear under Clarkson, Hammond and May successful was that they were 3 middle aged mates who bantered and messed around. The cars were a good addition, but ultimately superfluous.
I do wonder whether they will be able to catch lightning in a bottle on The Grand Tour.
I'm very puzzled why so many appear thrilled that Top Gear might be failing? Posters are literally falling over each other to say how pathetic the show is. Is Chris Evans not liked or is it a longing to have Clarkson back?. I've no interst in cars (other than to film them for money) so what's the answer?????
Clarkson is famously a Remainer. Such people exude authority and reassurance. It's no wonder he's missed.
Bravo.
If Remain could persuade Clarkson to do something high-profile for them it would take the wind out of the other side's sails.
I suspect Clarkson's fan base would be disproportionately Leave, so he wouldn't want to alienate them. Poor old Trevor Kavanagh at The Sun was almost in tears when he learnt the truth.
Leavers explode when Parliamentarians indicate they may exercise sovereignty over matter not covered by referendum.
no contradiction at all, no siree.
A posting which ignores all the Leavers saying it is up to Parliament to decide and to accept the consequences if the public don't like their decision.
The Remainders are trying to push this line of 'oh the horror' whilst most of the Leavers on here are saying what they have always said which is as long as we Leave Parliament can decide our relationship afterwards.
Top Gear pulled in just 2.8 million viewers last night - down from 4.3million viewers last Sunday.
But remember folks FACT, it's a hit.
Catastrophic
They have to save the show if they can. Somehow. It's worth too much. I reckon Evans will go at the end of the season
What I find so grimly amusing is that the BBC big wigs built the entire show around Evans - despite almost everyone saying NOOOOOOO!!! from the off.
We've had dozens of leaks, rumours and line-up changes = none of them complimentary about him. And now the show is live, the audience still has the same opinion and leaving in droves. He was the wrong choice and remains the wrong choice.
Part of the reason why Evans was supposedly picked is his undeniable passion for cars and the extent of his knowledge.
That was never ever what made Top Gear successful. Give any decent presenter a script and some research and they will be able to appear as knowledgeable as anyone else within the confines of the show.
What made Top Gear under Clarkson, Hammond and May successful was that they were 3 middle aged mates who bantered and messed around. The cars were a good addition, but ultimately superfluous.
I do wonder whether they will be able to catch lightning in a bottle on The Grand Tour.
I'm very puzzled why so many appear thrilled that Top Gear might be failing? Posters are literally falling over each other to say how pathetic the show is. Is Chris Evans not liked or is it a longing to have Clarkson back?. I've no interst in cars (other than to film them for money) so what's the answer?????
I had this argument with you when Clarkson was sacked (and long before Evans was appointed). You glibly said the BBC had a long history of successfully reinventing shows, and Clarkson wouldn't be missed, and they'd find a good replacement very easily.
I pointed out that Clarkson was a unique comic talent, the show had a delicate chemistry not easily reworked, and that, unlike you, I thought the BBC would really struggle to maintain the success of the franchise.
Not for the first time, I was right, and you were wrong.
Can you think of any examples where you were wrong? Have you ever actually been wrong? If so, was it a very long time ago?
If Remain could persuade Clarkson to do something high-profile for them it would take the wind out of the other side's sails.
Mr. Glenn, Serious question here, do you really think that the electorate would change their vote on the basis of what Jeremy Clarkson says?
Not directly but I think that what is driving the success of Leave is partly cultural. Someone like Clarkson personifies the sense that you don't have to be in favour of Brexit in order to assert a kind of bloody-minded, iconoclastic Britishness.
FPT. A first post by 'RealBritain' from the end of the last thread.
RealBritain Posts: 1 9:16AM
Roger said:
» show previous quotes "It is a deplorable indightment of the British people as much as the leaers promoting it. Their whole campaign is based on xenophobia and that's how it will be seen around the world. A reputation which Britain has built up over centuries will be lost in a single day"
RealBritain
It is grim and depressing. If people vote for a campaign that is openly, unabashedly xenophobic, and which ranges from campaigning on "foreign criminals" to ther prospect of sex attacks on British women if we stay in the EU, this country will deserve absolutely everything it gets from the economic disaster of Brexit.
I agree with Roger (and I never thought I would say that) and williamglenn and a few others on this site. Leave winning would be the most depressing election result in my lifetime and the consequences for our country and the population at large don't bear thinking about. On the plus side, I am sure we can make a fortune printing "DON'T BLAME ME...I VOTED REMAIN" merchandise.
The UK was a successful and prosperous democracy prior to joining the EU, and it will remain a prosperous and successful democracy if it leaves the EU.
Really? The Sick Man of Europe was successful and prosperous?
Viewed over anything other than the very short term, certainly. A few years of relatively poor economic performance won't turn a county into a basket case.
But a lost empire, a bankrupt state, a union dominated economy, a civil war over part of the country all might. The UK was in a bad way.
WW2, IMF, Maggie, Good Friday agreement. Nothing in that list has anything to do with the EU and our membership of it. I find it amazing to see Tories happy to go along with left wing revisionism about the economic success of the 80s, apparently nothing is safe from being sacrificed at the altar of our EU membership, not even Mrs Thatcher's legacy.
FPT. A first post by 'RealBritain' from the end of the last thread.
RealBritain Posts: 1 9:16AM
Roger said:
» show previous quotes "It is a deplorable indightment of the British people as much as the leaers promoting it. Their whole campaign is based on xenophobia and that's how it will be seen around the world. A reputation which Britain has built up over centuries will be lost in a single day"
RealBritain
It is grim and depressing. If people vote for a campaign that is openly, unabashedly xenophobic, and which ranges from campaigning on "foreign criminals" to ther prospect of sex attacks on British women if we stay in the EU, this country will deserve absolutely everything it gets from the economic disaster of Brexit.
I agree with Roger (and I never thought I would say that) and williamglenn and a few others on this site. Leave winning would be the most depressing election result in my lifetime and the consequences for our country and the population at large don't bear thinking about. On the plus side, I am sure we can make a fortune printing "DON'T BLAME ME...I VOTED REMAIN" merchandise.
The UK was a successful and prosperous democracy prior to joining the EU, and it will remain a prosperous and successful democracy if it leaves the EU.
Really? The Sick Man of Europe was successful and prosperous?
Viewed over anything other than the very short term, certainly. A few years of relatively poor economic performance won't turn a county into a basket case.
But a lost empire, a bankrupt state, a union dominated economy, a civil war over part of the country all might. The UK was in a bad way.
The Western world was passing through a rough patch. Inflation was high, in the wake of the oil shock, communism was gaining ground in Southern Africa and South East Asia, the Shah's regime was tottering, unruly trade unions were a common problem, and political terrorism was widespread. But none of that justifies talk of the sick man of Europe.
Top Gear pulled in just 2.8 million viewers last night - down from 4.3million viewers last Sunday.
But remember folks FACT, it's a hit.
Catastrophic
They have to save the show if they can. Somehow. It's worth too much. I reckon Evans will go at the end of the season
What I find so grimly amusing is that the BBC big wigs built the entire show around Evans - despite almost everyone saying NOOOOOOO!!! from the off.
We've had dozens of leaks, rumours and line-up changes = none of them complimentary about him. And now the show is live, the audience still has the same opinion and leaving in droves. He was the wrong choice and remains the wrong choice.
Part of the reason why Evans was supposedly picked is his undeniable passion for cars and the extent of his knowledge.
That was never ever what made Top Gear successful. Give any decent presenter a script and some research and they will be able to appear as knowledgeable as anyone else within the confines of the show.
What made Top Gear under Clarkson, Hammond and May successful was that they were 3 middle aged mates who bantered and messed around. The cars were a good addition, but ultimately superfluous.
I do wonder whether they will be able to catch lightning in a bottle on The Grand Tour.
I'm very puzzled why so many appear thrilled that Top Gear might be failing? Posters are literally falling over each other to say how pathetic the show is. Is Chris Evans not liked or is it a longing to have Clarkson back?. I've no interst in cars (other than to film them for money) so what's the answer?????
I've not met a single person who like Evans. I'd rate that as the top reason for wishing it to fail as it gets him off the TV quicker.
If Remain could persuade Clarkson to do something high-profile for them it would take the wind out of the other side's sails.
Mr. Glenn, Serious question here, do you really think that the electorate would change their vote on the basis of what Jeremy Clarkson says?
Not directly but I think that what is driving the success of Leave is partly cultural. Someone like Clarkson personifies the sense that you don't have to be in favour of Brexit in order to assert a kind of bloody-minded, iconoclastic Britishness.
Thank you for your answer and I now understand where you were coming from.
Incidentally, whilst I think the British, on the whole, are bloody-minded and stubborn I do not think we are iconoclastic. In fact, quite the reverse - the Brits love their Icons. The most obvious modern example is HMtQ, what was it a million people turned out for the last jubilee?
Sounds like Cheggers is very much in the Boris school of thought: Leave so we can renegotiate to something barely distinguishable from what we currently have. That's the worst sort of apostasy. Prepare to see Cheggers' head on a pike.
Top Gear pulled in just 2.8 million viewers last night - down from 4.3million viewers last Sunday.
But remember folks FACT, it's a hit.
Catastrophic
They have to save the show if they can. Somehow. It's worth too much. I reckon Evans will go at the end of the season
What I find so grimly amusing is that the BBC big wigs built the entire show around Evans - despite almost everyone saying NOOOOOOO!!! from the off.
We've had dozens of leaks, rumours and line-up changes = none of them complimentary about him. And now the show is live, the audience still has the same opinion and leaving in droves. He was the wrong choice and remains the wrong choice.
Part of the reason why Evans was supposedly picked is his undeniable passion for cars and the extent of his knowledge.
That was never ever what made Top Gear successful. Give any decent presenter a script and some research and they will be able to appear as knowledgeable as anyone else within the confines of the show.
What made Top Gear under Clarkson, Hammond and May successful was that they were 3 middle aged mates who bantered and messed around. The cars were a good addition, but ultimately superfluous.
I do wonder whether they will be able to catch lightning in a bottle on The Grand Tour.
I'm very puzzled why so many appear thrilled that Top Gear might be failing? Posters are literally falling over each other to say how pathetic the show is. Is Chris Evans not liked or is it a longing to have Clarkson back?. I've no interst in cars (other than to film them for money) so what's the answer?????
I've not met a single person who like Evans. I'd rate that as the top reason for wishing it to fail as it gets him off the TV quicker.
I have "met" him twice. Once he acted like a total tw@t and was asked to leave the establishment. The other time he was very pleasant and interesting.
Leavers explode when Parliamentarians indicate they may exercise sovereignty over matter not covered by referendum.
no contradiction at all, no siree.
A posting which ignores all the Leavers saying it is up to Parliament to decide and to accept the consequences if the public don't like their decision.
The Remainders are trying to push this line of 'oh the horror' whilst most of the Leavers on here are saying what they have always said which is as long as we Leave Parliament can decide our relationship afterwards.
The electorate might be another matter of course.
Let's suppose that a post-Leave Parliament negotiates single market plus free movement. Parliament has decided. Free movement of people in a new relationship with the EU. Call it Associate Membership.
The public throws up its hands in horror...but...but...what about immigration? You lied. Right that's it..
And at the next GE? Whose manifesto do you think will include an end to immigration, the single market and the Associate Membership? Only UKIP.
I'm surprised that so many are surprised at Clarkson's strongly europhile views. He has often openly said that his favourite country is France and he is a avowed and outspoken lover of France and the French way of life. His views on the quality of German engineering will be well known, too.
I once read him devote several pages in the Sunday Times magazine making the case for France being the best country in the world, going up against the Francosceptic A.A. Gill.
I'm no fan of Clarkson's (in fact quite the opposite) but it's clear that his anti European comments have always been largely tongue in cheek.
Having been out all morning, I just came across this thread on returning.
This is exactly what many of us have been saying all along on the leave side, mainly the Flexciteers who had already long ago realised that the only viable and agreeable route between Parliament, the Civil Service and the EU negotiating team would be to retain the EEA.
There is no prospective trade deal with the EU, the politics at this stage preclude it. The EU is inherently unstable at this point because they have tried unsuccessfully to mix politics and economics, using economic drivers to push the political settlement of a single 'European State'.
Until the EU reaches fiscal union, it will remain unstable, and therefore prone to national populations looking to exit if we get a good deal, or prove to do well. Our leaving then, has to be on terms that other are less able to accept, or appear to give the EU the upper hand.
Because we are an outward looking trading nation, the freedom that EEA/EFTA gives us to look to liberalising trade across third party nations without either EFTA or EU competence, does create opportunities for us to improve our position, and that of EFTA, until we can reach a point at where the EU has completed or shelved full union (without us holding it back) and EFTA is strong enough to negotiate a proper Pan EU free trade area.
This will take a decade or more, but the chance of any resolution to the EU crisis or Britain's issues with the EU, end if we vote to remain. The incompatibility of the EZ and Non EZ nations is not resolvable, even by the Fundamental Law route proposed by the Spinelli Group. The Danes are becoming aware of this fact too. Others will seek the opposite path - full integration.
I'm surprised that so many are surprised at Clarkson's strongly europhile views. He has often openly said that his favourite country is France and he is a avowed and outspoken lover of France and the French way of life. His views on the quality of German engineering will be well known, too.
I once read him devote several pages in the Sunday Times magazine making the case for France being the best country in the world, going up against the Francosceptic A.A. Gill.
I'm no fan of Clarkson's (in fact quite the opposite) but it's clear that his anti European comments have always been largely tongue in cheek.
Perhaps because people have failed to separate the Clarkson "tv character" from the real person.
There is an indication of percentage of bets placed, but not the VALUE of those bets.
Seems to me, bookies may be happy to pay 2:1 if the volume of bets lost by the REMAIN covers the cost.
So does the 2:1 give a true picture? Considering the polls are showing a statistical tie, and LEAVE is not only gaining, but inching ahead (ignoring dynamic methodologies), I suspect 2:1 is very good value.
Top Gear = I couldn;t give a toss, life's too short camp?
Yes. I've watched it a couple of times - seemed to be mildly amusing, reasonably competent low-brow entertainment. The relaunch was always doomed to fail however - too many people had set their face like flint against it, regardless of how good or bad it turned out to be.
FPT. A first post by 'RealBritain' from the end of the last thread.
RealBritain Posts: 1 9:16AM
Roger said:
» show previous quotes "It is a deplorable indightment of the British people as much as the leaers promoting it. Their whole campaign is based on xenophobia and that's how it will be seen around the world. A reputation which Britain has built up over centuries will be lost in a single day"
RealBritain
It is grim and depressing. If people vote for a campaign that is openly, unabashedly xenophobic, and which ranges from campaigning on "foreign criminals" to ther prospect of sex attacks on British women if we stay in the EU, this country will deserve absolutely everything it gets from the economic disaster of Brexit.
I agree with Roger (and I never thought I would say that) and williamglenn and a few others on this site. Leave winning would be the most depressing election result in my lifetime and the consequences for our country and the population at large don't bear thinking about. On the plus side, I am sure we can make a fortune printing "DON'T BLAME ME...I VOTED REMAIN" merchandise.
The UK was a successful and prosperous democracy prior to joining the EU, and it will remain a prosperous and successful democracy if it leaves the EU.
Really? The Sick Man of Europe was successful and prosperous?
Viewed over anything other than the very short term, certainly. A few years of relatively poor economic performance won't turn a county into a basket case.
But a lost empire, a bankrupt state, a union dominated economy, a civil war over part of the country all might. The UK was in a bad way.
WW2, IMF, Maggie, Good Friday agreement. Nothing in that list has anything to do with the EU and our membership of it. I find it amazing to see Tories happy to go along with left wing revisionism about the economic success of the 80s, apparently nothing is safe from being sacrificed at the altar of our EU membership, not even Mrs Thatcher's legacy.
Given that Mrs Thatcher was vigorously campaigning for the UK's membership of the (then) EEC just 4 years before she came to power, you could argue that EU membership is part and parcel of her legacy.
Leavers explode when Parliamentarians indicate they may exercise sovereignty over matter not covered by referendum.
no contradiction at all, no siree.
A posting which ignores all the Leavers saying it is up to Parliament to decide and to accept the consequences if the public don't like their decision.
The Remainders are trying to push this line of 'oh the horror' whilst most of the Leavers on here are saying what they have always said which is as long as we Leave Parliament can decide our relationship afterwards.
The electorate might be another matter of course.
Let's suppose that a post-Leave Parliament negotiates single market plus free movement. Parliament has decided. Free movement of people in a new relationship with the EU. Call it Associate Membership.
The public throws up its hands in horror...but...but...what about immigration? You lied. Right that's it..
And at the next GE? Whose manifesto do you think will include an end to immigration, the single market and the Associate Membership? Only UKIP.
So we are back where we started.
I dunno, Boris made it pretty clear on Marr yesterday that his view is that Parliament and UK Government should be able to decide numbers of migrants and not have open borders. Is he really going to go back on that as PM?
More likely is that negotiations for access to single market without free movement drag on and on and bump into the next GE (especially if Boris goes early).
Leavers explode when Parliamentarians indicate they may exercise sovereignty over matter not covered by referendum.
no contradiction at all, no siree.
Leavers want the electorate to be sovereign, do they not?
Precisely, parliament can try what it wants, if the electorate doesn't approve they get kicked out in 2020 and someone else get a go, that's the whole point for heavens sakes, as opposed to Mr Juncker(*) deciding and us just having to suck it up.
(*) Yes I know other people are involved, we can't kick out any of them. The only people we can kick out, some of them, are the EU Parliamentarians, and they dont have the power to initiate legislation.
Having been out all morning, I just came across this thread on returning.
This is exactly what many of us have been saying all along on the leave side, mainly the Flexciteers who had already long ago realised that the only viable and agreeable route between Parliament, the Civil Service and the EU negotiating team would be to retain the EEA.
There is no prospective trade deal with the EU, the politics at this stage preclude it. The EU is inherently unstable at this point because they have tried unsuccessfully to mix politics and economics, using economic drivers to push the political settlement of a single 'European State'.
Until the EU reaches fiscal union, it will remain unstable, and therefore prone to national populations looking to exit if we get a good deal, or prove to do well. Our leaving then, has to be on terms that other are less able to accept, or appear to give the EU the upper hand.
Because we are an outward looking trading nation, the freedom that EEA/EFTA gives us to look to liberalising trade across third party nations without either EFTA or EU competence, does create opportunities for us to improve our position, and that of EFTA, until we can reach a point at where the EU has completed or shelved full union (without us holding it back) and EFTA is strong enough to negotiate a proper Pan EU free trade area.
This will take a decade or more, but the chance of any resolution to the EU crisis or Britain's issues with the EU, end if we vote to remain. The incompatibility of the EZ and Non EZ nations is not resolvable, even by the Fundamental Law route proposed by the Spinelli Group. The Danes are becoming aware of this fact too. Others will seek the opposite path - full integration.
WW2, IMF, Maggie, Good Friday agreement. Nothing in that list has anything to do with the EU and our membership of it. I find it amazing to see Tories happy to go along with left wing revisionism about the economic success of the 80s, apparently nothing is safe from being sacrificed at the altar of our EU membership, not even Mrs Thatcher's legacy.
Mr. F, it is a fact of life that memories of the bad things decay quicker than memories of the good things in life. However, there is no doubt that that in the early seventies the UK was in a bad way.
However, we joined the EEC in 1973 and carried on being in a bad way for years afterwards (the winter of discontent was in 1978/79). I am not sure but I think that the Sick Man of Europe epithet was coined after we were in.
I would suggest that the UK's recovery of economy and, perhaps more importantly, self-respect happened in the 1980s under Thatcher and it had bugger all to do with the EEC, as it was then.
Times like this I like to mention it have 10 euro on UKIP most seats at 500/1
However, as EU normally doesn't figure in people's list of things to worry about, isn't it just as likely that whatever the result most public will shrug, go back to their lives and barely follow what happens next? Excepting the hard-core of Remainers and Leavers who will carry on rowing for months.
There is an indication of percentage of bets placed, but not the VALUE of those bets.
Seems to me, bookies may be happy to pay 2:1 if the volume of bets lost by the REMAIN covers the cost.
So does the 2:1 give a true picture? Considering the polls are showing a statistical tie, and LEAVE is not only gaining, but inching ahead (ignoring dynamic methodologies), I suspect 2:1 is very good value.
Leavers explode when Parliamentarians indicate they may exercise sovereignty over matter not covered by referendum.
no contradiction at all, no siree.
Leavers want the electorate to be sovereign, do they not?
Precisely, parliament can try what it wants, if the electorate doesn't approve they get kicked out in 2020 and someone else get a go, that's the whole point for heavens sakes, as opposed to Mr Juncker(*) deciding and us just having to suck it up.
(*) Yes I know other people are involved, we can't kick out any of them. The only people we can kick out, some of them, are the EU Parliamentarians, and they dont have the power to initiate legislation.
Back to my example pls. A post-Leave parliament negotiates free movement. Electorate up in arms (not literally, although...).
Next GE? Which manifesto has no free movement? Only UKIP. Manifestos are drawn up from the same parties which will just have voted in free movement.
Top Gear pulled in just 2.8 million viewers last night - down from 4.3million viewers last Sunday.
But remember folks FACT, it's a hit.
Catastrophic
They have to save the show if they can. Somehow. It's worth too much. I reckon Evans will go at the end of the season
What I find so grimly amusing is that the BBC big wigs built the entire show around Evans - despite almost everyone saying NOOOOOOO!!! from the off.
We've had dozens of leaks, rumours and line-up changes = none of them complimentary about him. And now the show is live, the audience still has the same opinion and leaving in droves. He was the wrong choice and remains the wrong choice.
Part of the reason why Evans was supposedly picked is his undeniable passion for cars and the extent of his knowledge.
That was never ever what made Top Gear successful. Give any decent presenter a script and some research and they will be able to appear as knowledgeable as anyone else within the confines of the show.
What made Top Gear under Clarkson, Hammond and May successful was that they were 3 middle aged mates who bantered and messed around. The cars were a good addition, but ultimately superfluous.
I do wonder whether they will be able to catch lightning in a bottle on The Grand Tour.
I'm very puzzled why so many appear thrilled that Top Gear might be failing? Posters are literally falling over each other to say how pathetic the show is. Is Chris Evans not liked or is it a longing to have Clarkson back?. I've no interst in cars (other than to film them for money) so what's the answer?????
I've not met a single person who like Evans. I'd rate that as the top reason for wishing it to fail as it gets him off the TV quicker.
I have "met" him twice. Once he acted like a total tw@t and was asked to leave the establishment. The other time he was very pleasant and interesting.
I've met him once. Separately being a "local" I was allowed to help spend the very large sum he put behind the bar at the Midas Touch when he sold Virgin Radio...
Leavers explode when Parliamentarians indicate they may exercise sovereignty over matter not covered by referendum.
no contradiction at all, no siree.
A posting which ignores all the Leavers saying it is up to Parliament to decide and to accept the consequences if the public don't like their decision.
The Remainders are trying to push this line of 'oh the horror' whilst most of the Leavers on here are saying what they have always said which is as long as we Leave Parliament can decide our relationship afterwards.
The electorate might be another matter of course.
Let's suppose that a post-Leave Parliament negotiates single market plus free movement. Parliament has decided. Free movement of people in a new relationship with the EU. Call it Associate Membership.
The public throws up its hands in horror...but...but...what about immigration? You lied. Right that's it..
And at the next GE? Whose manifesto do you think will include an end to immigration, the single market and the Associate Membership? Only UKIP.
So we are back where we started.
No because we will be outside of the EU.
Invoking Article 50 is a given. Once that has happened the UK will be leaving the EU. We may well decide to stay in the EEA which has the practical result of being in the single market and having freedom of movement but we will be out of the EU and no longer subject to the vast majority of legislation they impose.
That will hive off a large number of Brexiters who will now be happy with the situation. Assuming that the Leave vote was close there will be a clear majority for the new arrangement.
Mr. Crosby, thanks for that piece of advice, although that seems to have a feel of guilty until proven innocent about it.
Well you are, in the eyes of HMRC. And they have the force of law behind them.
But it's a pretty extreme scenario, really only something like.
Grannie: "Tommy, I've been sticking £50 notes under the mattress for the last 30 years. There's quite a lot of them now, and I'd like to give them to you."
After handing over the dosh, Grannie dies. How can Tommy prove he didn't earn the money doing some undeclared work? He can't, and HMRC (assuming they found out about the money) would be entitled to tax it and also penalize Tommy.
So you'd advise Tommy asking granny to write a note explaining the money before she croaked?
And now back to time away from PB. I thought I'd be more argumentative through lack of arguing online, but not so. Strange.
If that's awkward you can always write them a letter thanking them for the gift...
(I think that there's a threshold of £3,000 from memory below which it is deminimis anyway. It's not something I've ever really focused on though)
If Remain could persuade Clarkson to do something high-profile for them it would take the wind out of the other side's sails.
Mr. Glenn, Serious question here, do you really think that the electorate would change their vote on the basis of what Jeremy Clarkson says?
Not directly but I think that what is driving the success of Leave is partly cultural. Someone like Clarkson personifies the sense that you don't have to be in favour of Brexit in order to assert a kind of bloody-minded, iconoclastic Britishness.
Clarkson is part of Cameron's ghastly Chipping Norton set. He's probably expecting to receive a knighthood from his dodgy mate.
Comments
Re: Alamo.
Well hopefully nowhere. I don't want any kind of antagonistic relationship and I don't see Boris as Davey Crockett (though he's got his own looky likey hat without even having a hat).
This is all a dreadful miscalculation by Dave/George and the Continentals. We don't have an unreasonable case in that rigidly adhering to freedom of movement a la 1957 might just need a bit of modification in 2016, given the facts on the ground. But our lot didn't have the balls to make our case forcefully, and their lot didn't take us seriously hence the almighty mess that we are in with even "moderates" (I like to think of myself as such - others can judge) being forced to make hard hard choices. The history of weasel words on Lisbon and the ludicrous threats since have hardened my resolve though, almost despite myself.
One irony is I'm in Paris on the 24th, where I shall enjoy all the delights of its sights and sounds and atmosphere, and shall doubtless converse with the locals in their own tongue. Millwall tendency I ain't, but I know which way I am voting.
Oh dear. Another spectacular misjudgement by a leading remainer.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3627185/Brexit-like-putting-BOMB-economy-Cameron-delivers-latest-instalment-Project-Fear-teams-Harriet-Harman-EU-campaign-trail.html
The face Britain will present to the world on the 24th if Leave win. Depressing.
Trump would know how to lead the Remain campaign. Make it personal. Mock them relentlessly. "You want goofy Gove?"
@MichaelPDeacon: Gove has just cited "three key experts" who say Remain increases threat of terrorism. I thought "people had had enough of experts"?
The new set-up might sell better overseas than the previous presenters. That's why it has been Americanised and made less edgy.
However, it might only work short term if it works at all.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12163352/Britains-work-in-the-EU-is-done-our-next-chapter-awaits-us-outside.html
That was never ever what made Top Gear successful. Give any decent presenter a script and some research and they will be able to appear as knowledgeable as anyone else within the confines of the show.
What made Top Gear under Clarkson, Hammond and May successful was that they were 3 middle aged mates who bantered and messed around. The cars were a good addition, but ultimately superfluous.
I do wonder whether they will be able to catch lightning in a bottle on The Grand Tour.
Whether we stay in the Common Market (or the EEA) is not on the ballot paper. That's for MPs to decide (or another referendum). I thought Leavers were fans of Parliament asserting its sovereignty?
Leavers explode when Parliamentarians indicate they may exercise sovereignty over matter not covered by referendum.
no contradiction at all, no siree.
This why it would be politically possible for MPs to vote for an economic agreement.
I don't expect the Amazon venture to be a massive success, if I'm honest, at least not enough to justify the exorbitant sums invested in it - and with an online UK audience there in the high hundreds of thousands probably, only a tiny proportion legitimately paying and watching worldwide via Amazon of the 300m+ who watched Top Gear, and the lack of visibility the 3 of them will have in the UK, coupled with the inevitable collapse of the Evans re-tread version, means I can see them "coming home" to a huge fanfare and popular acclaim once the dust has settled....
LOL...re-positioning viewing...him on his own, re-positioning viewing...the way he is counting views old Top Gear gets 60 million views.
LEAVE with Turnout to be >65% on offer at 6/1 from Ladbrokes now looks to offer some kind of value.
Oh and yes, I admit, I have previously backed the opposite in both fields, i.e. REMAIN with Turnout to be <65% ..... that's how confused I've become!
DYOR (more than ever)
I have not heard Leave proposing we abolish Parliament. maybe that is next week...
https://twitter.com/politicshome/status/739775115055898625
That sounds optimistic.
Bit of a cheap and cheerful methodology for creating a poll of polls counting the last 6 and not caring that the pollsters included vary considerably between data points. Remain's lead constricting to almost zero on a fairly regular monthly basis and then recovering which, to my eyes, suggests pollsters reporting at this stage of the month may be a more Leave friendly?
My guess is that a 70% turnout would favour Remain; that it really will be tough to shift the WWC voters and they'd only start to haul things back once the turn things back once the turnout goes topside of 75%.
If Remain could persuade Clarkson to do something high-profile for them it would take the wind out of the other side's sails.
BBC only gets under £40m a year from oversaes sales of Top Gear. Seems low to me.
@politicshome: The endorsement everybody has been waiting for... Keith Chegwin backs Brexit https://t.co/Av3XaRKkcP https://t.co/ud6xzH7BSK
Does she mean splits in the Green party of the Conservative party?
The motoring show can lay claim to being the most popular factual television programme in the world – complete with a Guinness Book of World Records entry – watched by an audience of 350 million in 214 territories.
As a money spinner, Top Gear outperforms the clutch of mega-brands that the BBC considers to be its international crown jewels: Doctor Who, BBC Earth and Dancing with the Stars (Strictly Come Dancing in the UK).
http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/mar/11/top-gear-bbc-jeremy-clarkson
If you think Evans and co with their reboot are going to top this you are bonkers.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/06/ukraine-detained-french-citizen-plotting-euro-2016-attacks
Glastonbury 2016 to introduce women-only venue
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/jun/06/glastonbury-2016-sisterhood-women-only-venue
Top Gear = I couldn;t give a toss, life's too short camp?
The Remainders are trying to push this line of 'oh the horror' whilst most of the Leavers on here are saying what they have always said which is as long as we Leave Parliament can decide our relationship afterwards.
The electorate might be another matter of course.
Frenchman 'planned attacks during Euro 2016' - Ukraine's SBU
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36460569
Incidentally, whilst I think the British, on the whole, are bloody-minded and stubborn I do not think we are iconoclastic. In fact, quite the reverse - the Brits love their Icons. The most obvious modern example is HMtQ, what was it a million people turned out for the last jubilee?
Remain under 45 still on offer at 16/1
The public throws up its hands in horror...but...but...what about immigration? You lied. Right that's it..
And at the next GE? Whose manifesto do you think will include an end to immigration, the single market and the Associate Membership? Only UKIP.
So we are back where we started.
I once read him devote several pages in the Sunday Times magazine making the case for France being the best country in the world, going up against the Francosceptic A.A. Gill.
I'm no fan of Clarkson's (in fact quite the opposite) but it's clear that his anti European comments have always been largely tongue in cheek.
This is exactly what many of us have been saying all along on the leave side, mainly the Flexciteers who had already long ago realised that the only viable and agreeable route between Parliament, the Civil Service and the EU negotiating team would be to retain the EEA.
There is no prospective trade deal with the EU, the politics at this stage preclude it. The EU is inherently unstable at this point because they have tried unsuccessfully to mix politics and economics, using economic drivers to push the political settlement of a single 'European State'.
Until the EU reaches fiscal union, it will remain unstable, and therefore prone to national populations looking to exit if we get a good deal, or prove to do well. Our leaving then, has to be on terms that other are less able to accept, or appear to give the EU the upper hand.
Because we are an outward looking trading nation, the freedom that EEA/EFTA gives us to look to liberalising trade across third party nations without either EFTA or EU competence, does create opportunities for us to improve our position, and that of EFTA, until we can reach a point at where the EU has completed or shelved full union (without us holding it back) and EFTA is strong enough to negotiate a proper Pan EU free trade area.
This will take a decade or more, but the chance of any resolution to the EU crisis or Britain's issues with the EU, end if we vote to remain. The incompatibility of the EZ and Non EZ nations is not resolvable, even by the Fundamental Law route proposed by the Spinelli Group. The Danes are becoming aware of this fact too. Others will seek the opposite path - full integration.
I notice that Leave is now down to 2.
http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/eu-referendum/referendum-on-eu-membership-result
There is an indication of percentage of bets placed, but not the VALUE of those bets.
Seems to me, bookies may be happy to pay 2:1 if the volume of bets lost by the REMAIN covers the cost.
So does the 2:1 give a true picture? Considering the polls are showing a statistical tie, and LEAVE is not only gaining, but inching ahead (ignoring dynamic methodologies), I suspect 2:1 is very good value.
LauraK
Gove - 'we re not at all irritated' by name calling and language of other side - 'we are all supporters of free speech'
More likely is that negotiations for access to single market without free movement drag on and on and bump into the next GE (especially if Boris goes early).
I suppose ideological purity or conceit prevents him sharing a platform with an elected Tory.
(*) Yes I know other people are involved, we can't kick out any of them. The only people we can kick out, some of them, are the EU Parliamentarians, and they dont have the power to initiate legislation.
However, we joined the EEC in 1973 and carried on being in a bad way for years afterwards (the winter of discontent was in 1978/79). I am not sure but I think that the Sick Man of Europe epithet was coined after we were in.
I would suggest that the UK's recovery of economy and, perhaps more importantly, self-respect happened in the 1980s under Thatcher and it had bugger all to do with the EEC, as it was then.
I'm minded to agree, although it always feels horrid backing something at such short odds when others have twice as long...
Next GE? Which manifesto has no free movement? Only UKIP. Manifestos are drawn up from the same parties which will just have voted in free movement.
Does no one do logic on the Leave side?
Invoking Article 50 is a given. Once that has happened the UK will be leaving the EU. We may well decide to stay in the EEA which has the practical result of being in the single market and having freedom of movement but we will be out of the EU and no longer subject to the vast majority of legislation they impose.
That will hive off a large number of Brexiters who will now be happy with the situation. Assuming that the Leave vote was close there will be a clear majority for the new arrangement.
(I think that there's a threshold of £3,000 from memory below which it is deminimis anyway. It's not something I've ever really focused on though)