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  • PlatoSaid
    PlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Opinium
    48% of White Britons think that the UK is now less racist, with 46% of ethnic minorities agreeing https://t.co/oeJkJCrG7d #equality
  • Scott_P
    Scott_P Posts: 51,453
    @EdConwaySky: OECD warns (again) Brexit wld be bad news for the world economy, cuts UK GDP forecast to 1.7% from 2.2% https://t.co/rQjlfGOf7Z
  • Scott_P
    Scott_P Posts: 51,453
    @PeterMannionMP: One week Vote Leave threaten ITV for allowing Nigel Farage near a TV screen, next week they're parroting all UKIP's worst lines. #EUref
  • blackburn63
    blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    AlastairMeeks said:

    @blackburn63 If you had asked your ancestor in 1801 whether England could support a population nearly seven times that of his time, he would have been horrified at the idea. He could not have conceived of the technological advances that made that possible, and in a way that meant almost all of those people lived life in far more comfort than almost all of the people of his day.

    Asking me whether Britain can support a population nearly three times that of today is equally pointless. We simply do not know and cannot conceive what technological advances might take place in the relevant timescale.

    I'm happy to speculate even 40 years ahead but I'll leave longer time horizons to those who can't imagine the world ever changing.

    Keep wriggling on that hook.
  • MarqueeMark
    MarqueeMark Posts: 55,458
    PlatoSaid said:

    Umm

    Mirror
    Pro-EU Labour MP declares older white men 'the problem' in the referendum campaign https://t.co/mFBYfk9gVh https://t.co/qo28gu87yj

    Then he hasn't met enough older white women!
  • Innocent_Abroad
    Innocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294
    MarqueeMark said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    PAW said:

    So Mr Meeks and Roger, your holidays are more important than the little people's needs?

    The "little people " are going to be right royally screwed if it turns out that the warnings about leaving the EU are correct. Just as they would have been screwed in Scotland if they had listened to the SNP and not the experts in 20I4 and voted for independence.

    Tell me the "little people" in Spain and Italy and Greece haven't been royally screwed whilst in the EU?

    The "little people" get screwed. They are getting-screwed fodder. But I would rather they were getting screwed by a national Govt. they can finally have enough of getting screwed by and boot out, rather than getting screwed by an EU Govt. they can not. I'm a patrician like that.
    Shall we start a competition for "The Most Patronising Post of the Day"?

    This one has got to be odds on, methinks...

  • welshowl
    welshowl Posts: 4,464
    Scott_P said:

    @EdConwaySky: OECD warns (again) Brexit wld be bad news for the world economy, cuts UK GDP forecast to 1.7% from 2.2% https://t.co/rQjlfGOf7Z

    Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No it's the four horsemen of the Apocalypse of course.
  • JonathanD
    JonathanD Posts: 2,400
    MarqueeMark said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    PAW said:

    So Mr Meeks and Roger, your holidays are more important than the little people's needs?

    The "little people " are going to be right royally screwed if it turns out that the warnings about leaving the EU are correct. Just as they would have been screwed in Scotland if they had listened to the SNP and not the experts in 20I4 and voted for independence.

    Tell me the "little people" in Spain and Italy and Greece haven't been royally screwed whilst in the EU?

    The "little people" get screwed. They are getting-screwed fodder. But I would rather they were getting screwed by a national Govt. they can finally have enough of getting screwed by and boot out, rather than getting screwed by an EU Govt. they can not. I'm a patrician like that.

    The little people of Spain, Greece and Italy are getting screwed because they voted for Governments that wanted to join and stay in the Euro. If they had been sensible, then like the UK they should have stayed out of the Euro or vote for a government that would take them out.
  • dr_spyn
    dr_spyn Posts: 11,312
    Oops she's done it again.

    https://twitter.com/MirrorPolitics/status/737924504417148929
  • Indigo
    Indigo Posts: 9,966
    Do my eyes deceive me, or is this
    http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2016/05/27/nicky-morgan-slams-boris-johnson-over-misguided-brexit-gay-rights-claims/

    The same Ms Morgan that voted against the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Act 2013 ?

    Surely some mistake ?
  • Casino_Royale
    Casino_Royale Posts: 63,687
    Morris_Dancer said:

    Mr. Royale, :D

    It's easy to get carried away. There are valid reasons on both sides, though for me the balance clearly lies with Leave.

    He said that, not me.

    It's just my luck that I almost always meet Remainers, not Leavers, and they are really very rude about Leave and Leavers to boot.
  • AlastairMeeks
    AlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    @blackburn63 I've given a very clear answer. If your mind is too small to understand a radically changed world in 100 years' time, it's unsurprising that you're a fervent kipper.
  • Big_G_NorthWales
    Big_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,238
    On the basis that leave win and move towards a points system by 2020 how many will rush to this Country in the next four years, 500,000 pa or more and how do we stop them
  • Morris_Dancer
    Morris_Dancer Posts: 62,742
    Mr. Indigo, it's not your eyes that are the problem, it's Morgan's brain.

    Mr. Royale, I know he said that, I'm just saying people do get carried away.

    You're like a Sikh meeting Ed Miliband every day :p
  • foxinsoxuk
    foxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    blackburn63 said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    blackburn63 said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    @blackburn63 There are three dimensions and we don't use the third one anywhere near enough. If we used that one more, we wouldn't need to cover the country with more tarmac.

    In 5000 BC the population of England was about 6,000. By 1801 the population of England was just under 8 million. in 2011 the population of England was just over 53 million. We have been coping with population growth for millennia and rapid population growth for two centuries. I don't think we've yet reached anything like our conceivable limit just yet.

    Prevarication.

    80m, 100m, 200m - when would you cry enough?

    How many more schools, hospitals, roads etc do we need to build before you join the majority of the UK who see the rapid rise in population as a problem?

    Cameron foresaw the problem, he promised to cut it to sustainable levels.

    Your argument, such as it is, is lost.
    Half the rise in population in the ONS forecast is down to endogenous growth, and of the half that is down to migration only half is down to EU migration. Leaving the EU with an absolute halt to EU migration still results in 75% or so of the projected 4 million population rise.

    I'll ask you the same question:

    Do you foresee a time when we'll need to manage population numbers: if so when?
    I see that over the next fifteen years a lot of youthful migration will be required to support the aging population. Remember the ONS projection does not expand the Labour force, the population 18-65 being stable and the increase being the over 65s and over 75s in particular. If we do not have immigration we will have an expanding elderly population and a contracting working age population.

    At that point the pyramidal age distribution will have a long term stability and so our population would stabilise. I think forecasts on population more than 20 years into the future are very speculative, as fertility rates are declining worldwide.
  • MarqueeMark
    MarqueeMark Posts: 55,458
    Innocent_Abroad said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    PAW said:

    So Mr Meeks and Roger, your holidays are more important than the little people's needs?

    The "little people " are going to be right royally screwed if it turns out that the warnings about leaving the EU are correct. Just as they would have been screwed in Scotland if they had listened to the SNP and not the experts in 20I4 and voted for independence.

    Tell me the "little people" in Spain and Italy and Greece haven't been royally screwed whilst in the EU?

    The "little people" get screwed. They are getting-screwed fodder. But I would rather they were getting screwed by a national Govt. they can finally have enough of getting screwed by and boot out, rather than getting screwed by an EU Govt. they can not. I'm a patrician like that.
    Shall we start a competition for "The Most Patronising Post of the Day"?

    This one has got to be odds on, methinks...

    Whooooooooosh.....

    The clue was in "I'm a patrician like that"......
  • Big_G_NorthWales
    Big_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,238
    MarqueeMark said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Umm

    Mirror
    Pro-EU Labour MP declares older white men 'the problem' in the referendum campaign https://t.co/mFBYfk9gVh https://t.co/qo28gu87yj

    Then he hasn't met enough older white women!
    Think he is a she !!
  • Razedabode
    Razedabode Posts: 3,117
    welshowl said:

    Scott_P said:

    @EdConwaySky: OECD warns (again) Brexit wld be bad news for the world economy, cuts UK GDP forecast to 1.7% from 2.2% https://t.co/rQjlfGOf7Z

    Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No it's the four horsemen of the Apocalypse of course.
    Remain haven't yet clocked that people see this vote in more than just monetary terms. And it still seems to be their only argument - I've not really seen a positive reason why we should stay in apart from the supposed risk of economic doom.
  • Innocent_Abroad
    Innocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    On the basis that leave win and move towards a points system by 2020 how many will rush to this Country in the next four years, 500,000 pa or more and how do we stop them

    We could always legalise shooting swarthy people. Or make Arabic and Urdu official languages. Or something.

  • blackburn63
    blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    AlastairMeeks said:

    @blackburn63 I've given a very clear answer. If your mind is too small to understand a radically changed world in 100 years' time, it's unsurprising that you're a fervent kipper.

    I understand the implications of rapid population growth in terms of infrastructure. I invited you to spend an evening with me on a council estate where we could have discussed the problems people face with school places, doctors, dentists etc.

    Your response was to make a spurious reference to 5000 BC.

    You are very close, as usual, to resorting to insults, much to the amusement of posters such as vapid bilge. There is a special pleasure in seeing pompous people make fools of themselves.
  • Pulpstar
    Pulpstar Posts: 79,813
    edited June 2016
    foxinsoxuk said:

    blackburn63 said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    blackburn63 said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    @blackburn63 There are three dimensions and we don't use the third one anywhere near enough. If we used that one more, we wouldn't need to cover the country with more tarmac.

    In 5000 BC the population of England was about 6,000. By 1801 the population of England was just under 8 million. in 2011 the population of England was just over 53 million. We have been coping with population growth for millennia and rapid population growth for two centuries. I don't think we've yet reached anything like our conceivable limit just yet.

    Prevarication.

    80m, 100m, 200m - when would you cry enough?

    How many more schools, hospitals, roads etc do we need to build before you join the majority of the UK who see the rapid rise in population as a problem?

    Cameron foresaw the problem, he promised to cut it to sustainable levels.

    Your argument, such as it is, is lost.
    Half the rise in population in the ONS forecast is down to endogenous growth, and of the half that is down to migration only half is down to EU migration. Leaving the EU with an absolute halt to EU migration still results in 75% or so of the projected 4 million population rise.

    I'll ask you the same question:

    Do you foresee a time when we'll need to manage population numbers: if so when?
    I see that over the next fifteen years a lot of youthful migration will be required to support the aging population. Remember the ONS projection does not expand the Labour force, the population 18-65 being stable and the increase being the over 65s and over 75s in particular. If we do not have immigration we will have an expanding elderly population and a contracting working age population.

    At that point the pyramidal age distribution will have a long term stability and so our population would stabilise. I think forecasts on population more than 20 years into the future are very speculative, as fertility rates are declining worldwide.
    Errm Don't the immigrants get old too ?

    The solution is clearly to entice single young polish girls who stay from 18 - 35 and then toddle back off to Warsaw without popping a sprog here somehow discourage that from happening !

    Edit: @foxinsoxuk No, really won't the immigrants get old too o_O ?
  • MarqueeMark
    MarqueeMark Posts: 55,458
    JonathanD said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    PAW said:

    So Mr Meeks and Roger, your holidays are more important than the little people's needs?

    The "little people " are going to be right royally screwed if it turns out that the warnings about leaving the EU are correct. Just as they would have been screwed in Scotland if they had listened to the SNP and not the experts in 20I4 and voted for independence.

    Tell me the "little people" in Spain and Italy and Greece haven't been royally screwed whilst in the EU?

    The "little people" get screwed. They are getting-screwed fodder. But I would rather they were getting screwed by a national Govt. they can finally have enough of getting screwed by and boot out, rather than getting screwed by an EU Govt. they can not. I'm a patrician like that.

    The little people of Spain, Greece and Italy are getting screwed because they voted for Governments that wanted to join and stay in the Euro. If they had been sensible, then like the UK they should have stayed out of the Euro or vote for a government that would take them out.
    The democratic will of the "little people" of Greece and Italy got rolled by the EU - their votes were deemed an awkward road-block. So they drove over them...
  • blackburn63
    blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    On the basis that leave win and move towards a points system by 2020 how many will rush to this Country in the next four years, 500,000 pa or more and how do we stop them

    Do YOU think we should stop them?
  • john_zims
    john_zims Posts: 3,399
    @SandyRentool'

    'Will Straw: "Australia, who have a points-based immigration system, have twice as many migrants per head as the UK."

    Are you a muppet or what? They could just as easily have half the level - they have control.'


    Surprised but pleased that Remain has a useful idiot like this at the heart of their campaign.

  • JonathanD
    JonathanD Posts: 2,400
    PlatoSaid said:

    WTF

    Anyone got a link?

    BREAKING: #EU Court now ordering UK to increase VAT on green products including insulation materials and boiler controls from 5% to 20%.

    "Last month, amendments to the Government’s Finance Bill to prevent the existing rate going up from 5% to 20% were strongly put forward to the Government. Minsters consequently agreed to allow their own legislation to be amended to give the Treasury the power to resist the EU VAT rules. In conclusion, the reduced rate continues to apply as before."

    http://www.grantuk.com/government-led-consultation-on-changes-to-reduced-vat-rates-for-energy-saving-materials/

  • Casino_Royale
    Casino_Royale Posts: 63,687
    edited June 2016
    chestnut said:

    In last year's British Social Attitudes study it was found that 65% of respondents wanted to either leave the EU or reduce it's powers.

    19% wanted to retain the existing arrangement.

    Just 11% wanted further integration or a single european government.

    The BSA is carried out using gold standard random sampling.

    This is the $64,000 question.

    The British people are not happy with the EU status quo. They do not want political or economic union. They do not want mass immigration. They do want to be able to go on holiday there, do business there, trade freely with it as an open accessible market and, occasionally, retire there to a nice place in the sun.

    Cameron promised in 2014 to 'get what Britain needs', on both migration, human rights and laws. The fact he totally failed to do so, and the EU were completely obstinate in making any concessions whatsoever for the UK, is telling. Had a deal on practical limits on free movement been struck, with opt-outs on justice and home affairs secured, with a British veto on matters of national interest, this wouldn't even be close. We would stay.

    However, he got nothing and he has added insult to injury by putting nothing on the table as an alternative at all. This, combined with domesday scenarios and predictions of apocalypse if we Leave, he is hoping will threaten and bully British swing voters into having no option but to vote Remain. And thus protect the status quo for a very long time to come.

    It's outrageous. Both the EU and the UK Government have put British swing voters in a totally invidious position, and they're not happy about it. At all.

    If (and it's a big if) this blows up in their faces it will be a damning verdict on the attempts of both the Government - and the intractability of the EU - to browbeat British voters into voting for something that they do not want, and which does not even begin to address their fundamental concerns.
  • MarqueeMark
    MarqueeMark Posts: 55,458
    AlastairMeeks said:

    @blackburn63 I've given a very clear answer. If your mind is too small to understand a radically changed world in 100 years' time, it's unsurprising that you're a fervent kipper.

    You really are making the case so very well for Remainers being patronising arseholes...
  • blackburn63
    blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    foxinsoxuk said:

    blackburn63 said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    blackburn63 said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    @blackburn63 There are three dimensions and we don't use the third one anywhere near enough. If we used that one more, we wouldn't need to cover the country with more tarmac.

    In 5000 BC the population of England was about 6,000. By 1801 the population of England was just under 8 million. in 2011 the population of England was just over 53 million. We have been coping with population growth for millennia and rapid population growth for two centuries. I don't think we've yet reached anything like our conceivable limit just yet.

    Prevarication.

    80m, 100m, 200m - when would you cry enough?

    How many more schools, hospitals, roads etc do we need to build before you join the majority of the UK who see the rapid rise in population as a problem?

    Cameron foresaw the problem, he promised to cut it to sustainable levels.

    Your argument, such as it is, is lost.
    Half the rise in population in the ONS forecast is down to endogenous growth, and of the half that is down to migration only half is down to EU migration. Leaving the EU with an absolute halt to EU migration still results in 75% or so of the projected 4 million population rise.

    I'll ask you the same question:

    Do you foresee a time when we'll need to man?age population numbers: if sowhen
    I see that over the next fifteen years a lot of youthful migration will be required to support the aging population. Remember the ONS projection does not expand the Labour force, the population 18-65 being stable and the increase being the over 65s and over 75s in particular. If we do not have immigration we will have an expanding elderly population and a contracting working age population.

    At that point the pyramidal age distribution will have a long term stability and so our population would stabilise. I think forecasts on population more than 20 years into the future are very speculative, as fertility rates are declining worldwide.
    OK have another go:

    Do you foresee a time when we'll need to manage population numbers: if so when?

    It maybe that your answer is NO, of course.
  • pasta442
    pasta442 Posts: 5
    Scott_P said:

    pasta442 said:

    Ultimatly, the value of the currency will be set by the fundementals. The fundementals are not Leave/Remain but balance of payments deficit, current account deficit, interest rates, productivity, government credibility and so on. These fundementals will not change in the event of either outcome in the referendum.

    I think there is little doubt that there will be single market access based upon EFTA or similar.

    These 2 statements are contradictory.

    If leave wins on a message of closed borders, then "single market access based upon EFTA" completely destroys "government credibility"
    The official Leave campaign is not the government. When talking about credibility, I am specifically refering to the financial markets - the govenment has not met its fiscal targets and is not looking competent. Their rhetoric is not matched by their performance with regard to the deficit.
  • Indigo
    Indigo Posts: 9,966
    JonathanD said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    WTF

    Anyone got a link?

    BREAKING: #EU Court now ordering UK to increase VAT on green products including insulation materials and boiler controls from 5% to 20%.

    "Last month, amendments to the Government’s Finance Bill to prevent the existing rate going up from 5% to 20% were strongly put forward to the Government. Minsters consequently agreed to allow their own legislation to be amended to give the Treasury the power to resist the EU VAT rules. In conclusion, the reduced rate continues to apply as before."

    http://www.grantuk.com/government-led-consultation-on-changes-to-reduced-vat-rates-for-energy-saving-materials/

    How exactly does the Treasury "resist" the ECJ whilst staying in the EU ?

    This smells like another of those "we won't pay £1.7bn extra for black market sales and hookers..... oops, so we did" lines.
  • AlastairMeeks
    AlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    @blackburn63 There is nothing spurious about noting that the population limits of Britain have risen out of all recognition since the dawn of human history. (I can just imagine a troglodyte blackburn63 raving about the Beaker People coming over here and taking our jobs.) You are effectively arguing that right now, after millennia of population growth, we can conclude that we unprecedentedly have reached a point where Britain Is Full.

    I'm quite happy to be on the side of those who think that there is nothing particularly unusual about the present day moment.
  • JonathanD
    JonathanD Posts: 2,400
    Indigo said:

    JonathanD said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    WTF

    Anyone got a link?

    BREAKING: #EU Court now ordering UK to increase VAT on green products including insulation materials and boiler controls from 5% to 20%.

    "Last month, amendments to the Government’s Finance Bill to prevent the existing rate going up from 5% to 20% were strongly put forward to the Government. Minsters consequently agreed to allow their own legislation to be amended to give the Treasury the power to resist the EU VAT rules. In conclusion, the reduced rate continues to apply as before."

    http://www.grantuk.com/government-led-consultation-on-changes-to-reduced-vat-rates-for-energy-saving-materials/

    How exactly does the Treasury "resist" the ECJ whilst staying in the EU ?

    This smells like another of those "we won't pay £1.7bn extra for black market sales and hookers..... oops, so we did" lines.

    Read the article...

  • Big_G_NorthWales
    Big_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,238
    Very interesting article in the Telegraph today on the warnings being issued by Donald Tusk to the Commission about the desire to move away from ever closer union by various Countries and that the Commission just do not get it. The idea that a remain vote will entrench the EU does not seem to be valid according to this article and that Brexit has empowered a Europe wide revolt against the Commission, that is only going to increase no matter the result of the UK referendum
  • JonWC
    JonWC Posts: 289
    rcs1000 said:

    JonWC said:

    dr_spyn said:

    MikeK said:

    From my sick bed I see a very complicated but malevolent picture taking place as referendum day gets nearer.

    My advice: Buy Eros short term. Buy $ long term. But above all put away a bit of Gold. ;)

    Buy Eros...Brexit means price of hookers to rise...

    must be a mistype.
    I suspect the Eros might work out better than the euros. If there is a Leave vote the euro will be trashed against pretty much everything except GBP. It's not a great secret that the eurozone is on the precipice anyway.
    From here, I'd reckon sterling would be off 8-10% against the dollar, and the Euro off 4-6%
    I'm going for much more. Not because I believe that is particularly justified but because the loss of liquidity in the markets means overshoots are much bigger.
  • Indigo
    Indigo Posts: 9,966
    Casino_Royale said:

    If (and it's a big if) this blows up in their faces it will be a damning verdict on the attempts of both the Government - and the intractability of the EU - to browbeat British voters into voting for something that they do not want, and which does not even begin to address their fundamental concerns.

    Spot on.
  • blackburn63
    blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    AlastairMeeks said:

    @blackburn63 There is nothing spurious about noting that the population limits of Britain have risen out of all recognition since the dawn of human history. (I can just imagine a troglodyte blackburn63 raving about the Beaker People coming over here and taking our jobs.) You are effectively arguing that right now, after millennia of population growth, we can conclude that we unprecedentedly have reached a point where Britain Is Full.

    I'm quite happy to be on the side of those who think that there is nothing particularly unusual about the present day moment.

    3rd time lucky, I'm nothing if not an optimist.

    Do you foresee a time when we should manage population numbers and if so when?

    PS, you're looking increasingly silly here.
  • Casino_Royale
    Casino_Royale Posts: 63,687
    MarqueeMark said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    @blackburn63 I've given a very clear answer. If your mind is too small to understand a radically changed world in 100 years' time, it's unsurprising that you're a fervent kipper.

    You really are making the case so very well for Remainers being patronising arseholes...
    Alastair exemplifies the problems with the Remain side only too well.
  • Big_G_NorthWales
    Big_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,238
    Innocent_Abroad said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    On the basis that leave win and move towards a points system by 2020 how many will rush to this Country in the next four years, 500,000 pa or more and how do we stop them

    We could always legalise shooting swarthy people. Or make Arabic and Urdu official languages. Or something.

    But do you not agree it is a fair question and almost certainly will be raised in the next few weeks
  • Big_G_NorthWales
    Big_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,238
    blackburn63 said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    On the basis that leave win and move towards a points system by 2020 how many will rush to this Country in the next four years, 500,000 pa or more and how do we stop them

    Do YOU think we should stop them?
    Well as a leaver I think you should answer the question as it will be caused by leaving.
  • Indigo
    Indigo Posts: 9,966
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    blackburn63 said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    On the basis that leave win and move towards a points system by 2020 how many will rush to this Country in the next four years, 500,000 pa or more and how do we stop them

    Do YOU think we should stop them?
    Well as a leaver I think you should answer the question as it will be caused by leaving.
    But you are a Tory supporter and member, and its the Tory government that gets to make the call on the 24th June or shortly thereafter and neither of the campaign groups.
  • Morris_Dancer
    Morris_Dancer Posts: 62,742
    Mr. NorthWales, and David Cameron said he might recommend we leave the EU.

    Tusk's words are nice but I'll believe their sincerity when corresponding action occurs.
  • blackburn63
    blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    blackburn63 said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    On the basis that leave win and move towards a points system by 2020 how many will rush to this Country in the next four years, 500,000 pa or more and how do we stop them

    Do YOU think we should stop them?
    Well as a leaver I think you should answer the question as it will be caused by leaving.
    I have asked 3 Remainers today if they think we should manage population numbers, all three have prevaricated and refused to answer the question.

    Be honest, do you or don't you?
  • taffys
    taffys Posts: 9,753
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Very interesting article in the Telegraph today on the warnings being issued by Donald Tusk to the Commission about the desire to move away from ever closer union by various Countries and that the Commission just do not get it. The idea that a remain vote will entrench the EU does not seem to be valid according to this article and that Brexit has empowered a Europe wide revolt against the Commission, that is only going to increase no matter the result of the UK referendum

    All the evidence is against you though. The EU are masters at doing this. Look at the way they destroyed Blair by promising to 'look at' the CAP in return for Britain's billions. Result? no change.

    The overwhelming evidence is they will never change. Judge people not by what they say, but what they do.
  • PlatoSaid
    PlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    edited June 2016
    Razedabode said:

    welshowl said:

    Scott_P said:

    @EdConwaySky: OECD warns (again) Brexit wld be bad news for the world economy, cuts UK GDP forecast to 1.7% from 2.2% https://t.co/rQjlfGOf7Z

    Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No it's the four horsemen of the Apocalypse of course.
    Remain haven't yet clocked that people see this vote in more than just monetary terms. And it still seems to be their only argument - I've not really seen a positive reason why we should stay in apart from the supposed risk of economic doom.
    Absolutely. Remainers are only talking about money. Entirely missing the point that those without much, who rent, are seeing wages fall, or will take a small financial hit don't care.

    These are frequently the same people who voted Tory despite cuts et al. They weighed the whole picture.
  • AlastairMeeks
    AlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    @blackburn63 Once again, it is futile speculating about numerical upper bounds on population capacity of the island of Britain because we cannot be in possession of all the relevant facts for determining what that upper bound might be.

    I am quite prepared to accept that there is a theoretical upper bound. I very much doubt whether we need to manage population numbers more aggressively than we currently do because I expect that long before we have reached the upper bound for this island, world population will have peaked and other countries will prove more desirable destinations.

    PS Your inability to accept my basic point that Britain's population has grown rapidly and you are arbitrarily calling a halt to that process right now on the basis of no evidence other than your own gut instinct doesn't really qualify you to decide who looks silly.
  • JonCisBack
    JonCisBack Posts: 911
    edited June 2016
    SouthamObserver said:

    PlatoSaid said:



    For oil read the Single Market. It is now completely clear that two years following the Leave vote we will no longer be a part of that. We have to hope that the Leave camp is correct and that removing ourselves from the Single Market will have no adverse consequences - either directly or indirectly.

    As so often i think you are right. But I suspect that we may differ on our levels of optimism about what might happen after we leave. UK Businesses will adapt to the new circumstances, and find a way forward.

    The many continental businesses who depend largely or even partly on the UK for their profitability will also not be idle or just accept worse trading circumstances whatever they may be.

    The world will adapt, move on, markets will change. I am sure we will suffer in the short term economically by leaving, but I very much doubt it will be a huge or permanent effect, and the fate of the rest of the EU does not look rosy - we may very well be better off out in 5 years time or less.

    (Apols - buggered up the attempt at editing it to make it shorter...above quote is by SO...)
  • SouthamObserver
    SouthamObserver Posts: 40,054
    MarqueeMark said:

    JonathanD said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    PAW said:

    So Mr Meeks and Roger, your holidays are more important than the little people's needs?

    The "little people " are going to be right royally screwed if it turns out that the warnings about leaving the EU are correct. Just as they would have been screwed in Scotland if they had listened to the SNP and not the experts in 20I4 and voted for independence.

    Tell me the "little people" in Spain and Italy and Greece haven't been royally screwed whilst in the EU?

    The "little people" get screwed. They are getting-screwed fodder. But I would rather they were getting screwed by a national Govt. they can finally have enough of getting screwed by and boot out, rather than getting screwed by an EU Govt. they can not. I'm a patrician like that.

    The little people of Spain, Greece and Italy are getting screwed because they voted for Governments that wanted to join and stay in the Euro. If they had been sensible, then like the UK they should have stayed out of the Euro or vote for a government that would take them out.
    The democratic will of the "little people" of Greece and Italy got rolled by the EU - their votes were deemed an awkward road-block. So they drove over them...

    Election votes do not undo international obligations agreed by previous governments.
  • Scott_P
    Scott_P Posts: 51,453
    edited June 2016
    PlatoSaid said:

    will take a small financial hit

    It will not be small

    Rich Leavers don't care
  • blackburn63
    blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    AlastairMeeks said:

    @blackburn63 Once again, it is futile speculating about numerical upper bounds on population capacity of the island of Britain because we cannot be in possession of all the relevant facts for determining what that upper bound might be.

    I am quite prepared to accept that there is a theoretical upper bound. I very much doubt whether we need to manage population numbers more aggressively than we currently do because I expect that long before we have reached the upper bound for this island, world population will have peaked and other countries will prove more desirable destinations.

    PS Your inability to accept my basic point that Britain's population has grown rapidly and you are arbitrarily calling a halt to that process right now on the basis of no evidence other than your own gut instinct doesn't really qualify you to decide who looks silly.

    One of us is enjoying this Meeks, and it ain't you (smiley face)
  • PlatoSaid
    PlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    LBC
    WATCH: @iancollinsuk on blistering form as he took aim at the single mum of eight who gets £31,000 of benefits https://t.co/g98cJU4mZS
  • AlastairMeeks
    AlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    @blackburn63 - how wrong you are, as usual.
  • SouthamObserver
    SouthamObserver Posts: 40,054
    MarqueeMark said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    PAW said:

    So Mr Meeks and Roger, your holidays are more important than the little people's needs?

    The "little people " are going to be right royally screwed if it turns out that the warnings about leaving the EU are correct. Just as they would have been screwed in Scotland if they had listened to the SNP and not the experts in 20I4 and voted for independence.

    Tell me the "little people" in Spain and Italy and Greece haven't been royally screwed whilst in the EU?

    The "little people" get screwed. They are getting-screwed fodder. But I would rather they were getting screwed by a national Govt. they can finally have enough of getting screwed by and boot out, rather than getting screwed by an EU Govt. they can not. I'm a patrician like that.

    So you would you would be happy with a situation in which they were worse off out of the EU than better off inside it. Fair enough, but let's not pretend you actually care about them then.

  • Big_G_NorthWales
    Big_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,238
    Indigo said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    blackburn63 said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    On the basis that leave win and move towards a points system by 2020 how many will rush to this Country in the next four years, 500,000 pa or more and how do we stop them

    Do YOU think we should stop them?
    Well as a leaver I think you should answer the question as it will be caused by leaving.
    But you are a Tory supporter and member, and its the Tory government that gets to make the call on the 24th June or shortly thereafter and neither of the campaign groups.
    I support stopping benefits for four years for all immigrants and for the UK government to move the system for everyone to only get out when put in. I do believe that unemployment at 5% diminishes the case against of 184,000 EU immigrants last year as they are needed to fuel our expanding economy. I do support David Cameron but accept his immigration promise was ill advised
  • blackburn63
    blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    AlastairMeeks said:

    @blackburn63 - how wrong you are, as usual.

    Go on, I'll give you the last word, get out the thesaurus and give it your best shot.

    Good day.
  • Indigo
    Indigo Posts: 9,966
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Very interesting article in the Telegraph today on the warnings being issued by Donald Tusk to the Commission about the desire to move away from ever closer union by various Countries and that the Commission just do not get it. The idea that a remain vote will entrench the EU does not seem to be valid according to this article and that Brexit has empowered a Europe wide revolt against the Commission, that is only going to increase no matter the result of the UK referendum

    Would this be the same Tusk that earlier this year was one of the co signatories of the Five Presidents Report suggesting much more EU and closer federalisation ?

    https://ec.europa.eu/priorities/publications/five-presidents-report-completing-europes-economic-and-monetary-union_en

    "Deep genuine economic and monetary union", "binding convergence criteria", "financial union", "fiscal union", "strengthening the EU institutions"...

    that one ?
  • blackburn63
    blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Indigo said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    blackburn63 said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    On the basis that leave win and move towards a points system by 2020 how many will rush to this Country in the next four years, 500,000 pa or more and how do we stop them

    Do YOU think we should stop them?
    Well as a leaver I think you should answer the question as it will be caused by leaving.
    But you are a Tory supporter and member, and its the Tory government that gets to make the call on the 24th June or shortly thereafter and neither of the campaign groups.
    I support stopping benefits for four years for all immigrants and for the UK government to move the system for everyone to only get out when put in. I do believe that unemployment at 5% diminishes the case against of 184,000 EU immigrants last year as they are needed to fuel our expanding economy. I do support David Cameron but accept his immigration promise was ill advised
    Why was it ill advised?
  • JonCisBack
    JonCisBack Posts: 911
    Razedabode said:

    welshowl said:

    Scott_P said:

    @EdConwaySky: OECD warns (again) Brexit wld be bad news for the world economy, cuts UK GDP forecast to 1.7% from 2.2% https://t.co/rQjlfGOf7Z

    Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No it's the four horsemen of the Apocalypse of course.
    Remain haven't yet clocked that people see this vote in more than just monetary terms. And it still seems to be their only argument - I've not really seen a positive reason why we should stay in apart from the supposed risk of economic doom.
    Yes and for me the doom mongering about house prices falling is good news. I have 3 kids who have not got a prayer of owning a house unless prices fall.

    Wrong message to the wrong people.
  • VapidBilge
    VapidBilge Posts: 412
    AlastairMeeks said:

    @PAW I have no idea who you are or why you think my personal life is remotely relevant. Perhaps you could confine yourself to the arguments? Or alternatively, perhaps you could give us a comprehensive rundown of your own life so the rest of us can painstakingly pick over it for imaginary hypocrisies.

    It is about time you answered the question about how much competition British pension lawyers have for work from EU migrants.
  • taffys
    taffys Posts: 9,753
    'I am quite prepared to accept that there is a theoretical upper bound''

    The will of the British people on immigration should not and cannot be constrained to what you personally are 'prepared to accept'.

    You do not and should not have a 'morality express' card to play here.

    Democracy supersedes all. If voters want ten million net immigrants it should be ten million. If they want zero, it should be zero.

    End of.
  • SouthamObserver
    SouthamObserver Posts: 40,054
    Scott_P said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    will take a small financial hit

    It will not be small

    Rich Leavers don't care

    The well-off, the retired (as long as they are not in southern Europe) and those who do not need to work are pretty much insulated from any downsides of Brexit. The elite will still be the elite. If things go wrong the ones to suffer will be regular punters. That's why we all have to hope that Leave's optimism turns out to be correct.

  • Big_G_NorthWales
    Big_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,238
    Indigo said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Very interesting article in the Telegraph today on the warnings being issued by Donald Tusk to the Commission about the desire to move away from ever closer union by various Countries and that the Commission just do not get it. The idea that a remain vote will entrench the EU does not seem to be valid according to this article and that Brexit has empowered a Europe wide revolt against the Commission, that is only going to increase no matter the result of the UK referendum

    Would this be the same Tusk that earlier this year was one of the co signatories of the Five Presidents Report suggesting much more EU and closer federalisation ?

    https://ec.europa.eu/priorities/publications/five-presidents-report-completing-europes-economic-and-monetary-union_en

    "Deep genuine economic and monetary union", "binding convergence criteria", "financial union", "fiscal union", "strengthening the EU institutions"...

    that one ?
    But opinions are changing rapidly throughout Europe as the fear of Brexit is acting like an earthquake through the Commission.. It is going to change or it will disintegrate - the rise of the right and the migration crisis will see to that
  • Indigo
    Indigo Posts: 9,966
    AlastairMeeks said:

    PS Your inability to accept my basic point that Britain's population has grown rapidly and you are arbitrarily calling a halt to that process right now on the basis of no evidence other than your own gut instinct doesn't really qualify you to decide who looks silly.

    NO! Its not him, its the British public, the voters saying its enough, every year the number of people that say they want less or much less immigration increases, this isnt about numbers, or populations densities or developments in the construction industry, its about political reality. The political reality is that the man on the Clapham Omnibus doesn't care about cheap service employees for the well to do, and is rapidly approach the point where he has had enough.

    http://www.natcen.ac.uk/news-media/press-releases/2014/january/more-than-3-in-4-want-reduction-in-immigration/
  • taffys
    taffys Posts: 9,753
    Scott_P said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    will take a small financial hit

    It will not be small

    Rich Leavers don't care
    And rich remainers don;t care about the millions of young Europeans tossed onto the scrap heap by the euro.

    Hey, they can serve me tapas when I go to my second home in Spain.
  • dr_spyn
    dr_spyn Posts: 11,312
    Head in hands moment for John McDonnell and Owen Jones.

    http://www.expressandstar.com/news/local-news/2016/06/01/eu-referendum-old-white-men-are-the-problem-for-the-remain-campaign-says-labours-shadow-europe-minister/

    Will they spin it as Pat Glass was only joking.
  • Big_G_NorthWales
    Big_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,238
    blackburn63 said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Indigo said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    blackburn63 said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    On the basis that leave win and move towards a points system by 2020 how many will rush to this Country in the next four years, 500,000 pa or more and how do we stop them

    Do YOU think we should stop them?
    Well as a leaver I think you should answer the question as it will be caused by leaving.
    But you are a Tory supporter and member, and its the Tory government that gets to make the call on the 24th June or shortly thereafter and neither of the campaign groups.
    I support stopping benefits for four years for all immigrants and for the UK government to move the system for everyone to only get out when put in. I do believe that unemployment at 5% diminishes the case against of 184,000 EU immigrants last year as they are needed to fuel our expanding economy. I do support David Cameron but accept his immigration promise was ill advised
    Why was it ill advised?
    Tens of thousands was not achievable or wise in view of the strong economy
  • weejonnie
    weejonnie Posts: 3,820
    edited June 2016
    blackburn63 said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    @blackburn63 - how wrong you are, as usual.

    Go on, I'll give you the last word, get out the thesaurus and give it your best shot.

    Good day.
    Zyzzyva is the last word in most dictionaries - would score well at scrabble if they had more 'z's - it's a type of weevil - obviously named by a nerd.
  • TGOHF
    TGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Scott_P said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    will take a small financial hit

    It will not be small

    Rich Leavers don't care
    Is this from the same source that said the deficit would be eliminated by 2015 ?
  • PlatoSaid
    PlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    MarqueeMark said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    @blackburn63 I've given a very clear answer. If your mind is too small to understand a radically changed world in 100 years' time, it's unsurprising that you're a fervent kipper.

    You really are making the case so very well for Remainers being patronising arseholes...
    This referendum has been most enlightening.
  • Indigo
    Indigo Posts: 9,966
    SouthamObserver said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    JonathanD said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    PAW said:

    So Mr Meeks and Roger, your holidays are more important than the little people's needs?

    The "little people " are going to be right royally screwed if it turns out that the warnings about leaving the EU are correct. Just as they would have been screwed in Scotland if they had listened to the SNP and not the experts in 20I4 and voted for independence.

    Tell me the "little people" in Spain and Italy and Greece haven't been royally screwed whilst in the EU?

    The "little people" get screwed. They are getting-screwed fodder. But I would rather they were getting screwed by a national Govt. they can finally have enough of getting screwed by and boot out, rather than getting screwed by an EU Govt. they can not. I'm a patrician like that.

    The little people of Spain, Greece and Italy are getting screwed because they voted for Governments that wanted to join and stay in the Euro. If they had been sensible, then like the UK they should have stayed out of the Euro or vote for a government that would take them out.
    The democratic will of the "little people" of Greece and Italy got rolled by the EU - their votes were deemed an awkward road-block. So they drove over them...

    Election votes do not undo international obligations agreed by previous governments.
    Elected governments can resile from a treaty any time they feel like it, there will be political consequences to be sure, but that is just part of the judgement they have to make.
  • blackburn63
    blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    blackburn63 said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Indigo said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    blackburn63 said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    On the basis that leave win and move towards a points system by 2020 how many will rush to this Country in the next four years, 500,000 pa or more and how do we stop them

    Do YOU think we should stop them?
    Well as a leaver I think you should answer the question as it will be caused by leaving.
    But you are a Tory supporter and member, and its the Tory government that gets to make the call on the 24th June or shortly thereafter and neither of the campaign groups.
    I support stopping benefits for four years for all immigrants and for the UK government to move the system for everyone to only get out when put in. I do believe that unemployment at 5% diminishes the case against of 184,000 EU immigrants last year as they are needed to fuel our expanding economy. I do support David Cameron but accept his immigration promise was ill advised
    Why was it ill advised?
    Tens of thousands was not achievable or wise in view of the strong economy
    OK so to clarify, it is unwise to limit immigration, thanks.

    Why the restrictions on non EU folk then?
  • PlatoSaid
    PlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    pasta442 said:

    Scott_P said:

    pasta442 said:

    Ultimatly, the value of the currency will be set by the fundementals. The fundementals are not Leave/Remain but balance of payments deficit, current account deficit, interest rates, productivity, government credibility and so on. These fundementals will not change in the event of either outcome in the referendum.

    I think there is little doubt that there will be single market access based upon EFTA or similar.

    These 2 statements are contradictory.

    If leave wins on a message of closed borders, then "single market access based upon EFTA" completely destroys "government credibility"
    The official Leave campaign is not the government. When talking about credibility, I am specifically refering to the financial markets - the govenment has not met its fiscal targets and is not looking competent. Their rhetoric is not matched by their performance with regard to the deficit.
    Great initial posts and welcome aboard, Mr Pasta.
  • Indigo
    Indigo Posts: 9,966
    edited June 2016
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Indigo said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    blackburn63 said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    On the basis that leave win and move towards a points system by 2020 how many will rush to this Country in the next four years, 500,000 pa or more and how do we stop them

    Do YOU think we should stop them?
    Well as a leaver I think you should answer the question as it will be caused by leaving.
    But you are a Tory supporter and member, and its the Tory government that gets to make the call on the 24th June or shortly thereafter and neither of the campaign groups.
    I support stopping benefits for four years for all immigrants and for the UK government to move the system for everyone to only get out when put in. I do believe that unemployment at 5% diminishes the case against of 184,000 EU immigrants last year as they are needed to fuel our expanding economy. I do support David Cameron but accept his immigration promise was ill advised
    So when he is instructed by the British people, not "Remain", not "Leave", the British people, to leave the EU, then what... ?
  • SouthamObserver
    SouthamObserver Posts: 40,054
    Indigo said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    JonathanD said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    PAW said:

    So Mr Meeks and Roger, your holidays are more important than the little people's needs?

    The "little people " are going to be right royally screwed if it turns out that the warnings about leaving the EU are correct. Just as they would have been screwed in Scotland if they had listened to the SNP and not the experts in 20I4 and voted for independence.

    Tell me the "little people" in Spain and Italy and Greece haven't been royally screwed whilst in the EU?

    The "little people" get screwed. They are getting-screwed fodder. But I would rather they were getting screwed by a national Govt. they can finally have enough of getting screwed by and boot out, rather than getting screwed by an EU Govt. they can not. I'm a patrician like that.

    The little people of Spain, Greece and Italy are getting screwed because they voted for Governments that wanted to join and stay in the Euro. If they had been sensible, then like the UK they should have stayed out of the Euro or vote for a government that would take them out.
    The democratic will of the "little people" of Greece and Italy got rolled by the EU - their votes were deemed an awkward road-block. So they drove over them...

    Election votes do not undo international obligations agreed by previous governments.
    Elected governments can resile from a treaty any time they feel like it, there will be political consequences to be sure, but that is just part of the judgement they have to make.

    Yes, of course. It's pretty much what happened in Greece and Italy.

  • PlatoSaid
    PlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Indigo said:

    JonathanD said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    WTF

    Anyone got a link?

    BREAKING: #EU Court now ordering UK to increase VAT on green products including insulation materials and boiler controls from 5% to 20%.

    "Last month, amendments to the Government’s Finance Bill to prevent the existing rate going up from 5% to 20% were strongly put forward to the Government. Minsters consequently agreed to allow their own legislation to be amended to give the Treasury the power to resist the EU VAT rules. In conclusion, the reduced rate continues to apply as before."

    http://www.grantuk.com/government-led-consultation-on-changes-to-reduced-vat-rates-for-energy-saving-materials/

    How exactly does the Treasury "resist" the ECJ whilst staying in the EU ?

    This smells like another of those "we won't pay £1.7bn extra for black market sales and hookers..... oops, so we did" lines.
    That made me wonder too.
  • weejonnie
    weejonnie Posts: 3,820
    dr_spyn said:

    Head in hands moment for John McDonnell and Owen Jones.

    http://www.expressandstar.com/news/local-news/2016/06/01/eu-referendum-old-white-men-are-the-problem-for-the-remain-campaign-says-labours-shadow-europe-minister/

    Will they spin it as Pat Glass was only joking.

    Well I suppose Corbyn hasn't helped the cause very much.
  • VapidBilge
    VapidBilge Posts: 412
    SouthamObserver said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    JonathanD said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    PAW said:

    So Mr Meeks and Roger, your holidays are more important than the little people's needs?

    The "little people " are going to be right royally screwed if it turns out that the warnings about leaving the EU are correct. Just as they would have been screwed in Scotland if they had listened to the SNP and not the experts in 20I4 and voted for independence.

    Tell me the "little people" in Spain and Italy and Greece haven't been royally screwed whilst in the EU?

    The "little people" get screwed. They are getting-screwed fodder. But I would rather they were getting screwed by a national Govt. they can finally have enough of getting screwed by and boot out, rather than getting screwed by an EU Govt. they can not. I'm a patrician like that.

    The little people of Spain, Greece and Italy are getting screwed because they voted for Governments that wanted to join and stay in the Euro. If they had been sensible, then like the UK they should have stayed out of the Euro or vote for a government that would take them out.
    The democratic will of the "little people" of Greece and Italy got rolled by the EU - their votes were deemed an awkward road-block. So they drove over them...

    Election votes do not undo international obligations agreed by previous governments.
    Nice to see the 'we are still a sovereign nation' argument skewered so effectively by a Remainer.

    Anyway, aren't we attempting to do exactly that in this referendum?
  • john_zims
    john_zims Posts: 3,399
    @AlastairMeeks

    'You are effectively arguing that right now, after millennia of population growth, we can conclude that we unprecedentedly have reached a point where Britain Is Full.

    I'm quite happy to be on the side of those who think that there is nothing particularly unusual about the present day moment.'


    Maybe if you occasionally came down from your ivory tower and experienced the real world you might not have such a cavalier attitude.
  • Scott_P
    Scott_P Posts: 51,453
    VapidBilge said:

    aren't we attempting to do exactly that in this referendum?

    This is not an election.
  • Indigo
    Indigo Posts: 9,966
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Indigo said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Very interesting article in the Telegraph today on the warnings being issued by Donald Tusk to the Commission about the desire to move away from ever closer union by various Countries and that the Commission just do not get it. The idea that a remain vote will entrench the EU does not seem to be valid according to this article and that Brexit has empowered a Europe wide revolt against the Commission, that is only going to increase no matter the result of the UK referendum

    Would this be the same Tusk that earlier this year was one of the co signatories of the Five Presidents Report suggesting much more EU and closer federalisation ?

    https://ec.europa.eu/priorities/publications/five-presidents-report-completing-europes-economic-and-monetary-union_en

    "Deep genuine economic and monetary union", "binding convergence criteria", "financial union", "fiscal union", "strengthening the EU institutions"...

    that one ?
    But opinions are changing rapidly throughout Europe as the fear of Brexit is acting like an earthquake through the Commission.. It is going to change or it will disintegrate - the rise of the right and the migration crisis will see to that
    Do you have a reference, or any evidence for this other than the platitudes of Mr Tusk ?
  • SouthamObserver
    SouthamObserver Posts: 40,054
    VapidBilge said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    JonathanD said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    PAW said:

    So Mr Meeks and Roger, your holidays are more important than the little people's needs?

    The "little people " are going to be right royally screwed if it turns out that the warnings about leaving the EU are correct. Just as they would have been screwed in Scotland if they had listened to the SNP and not the experts in 20I4 and voted for independence.

    Tell me the "little people" in Spain and Italy and Greece haven't been royally screwed whilst in the EU?

    The "little people" get screwed. They are getting-screwed fodder. But I would rather they were getting screwed by a national Govt. they can finally have enough of getting screwed by and boot out, rather than getting screwed by an EU Govt. they can not. I'm a patrician like that.

    The little people of Spain, Greece and Italy are getting screwed because they voted for Governments that wanted to join and stay in the Euro. If they had been sensible, then like the UK they should have stayed out of the Euro or vote for a government that would take them out.
    The democratic will of the "little people" of Greece and Italy got rolled by the EU - their votes were deemed an awkward road-block. So they drove over them...

    Election votes do not undo international obligations agreed by previous governments.
    Nice to see the 'we are still a sovereign nation' argument skewered so effectively by a Remainer.

    Anyway, aren't we attempting to do exactly that in this referendum?

    No. We are deciding whether we want to leave the EU. Under the international treaty we signed to join up it is perfectly acceptable to do that.

  • JonCisBack
    JonCisBack Posts: 911
    edited June 2016
    AlastairMeeks said:

    @blackburn63 Once again, it is futile speculating about numerical upper bounds on population capacity of the island of Britain because we cannot be in possession of all the relevant facts for determining what that upper bound might be.

    PS Your inability to accept my basic point that Britain's population has grown rapidly and you are arbitrarily calling a halt to that process right now on the basis of no evidence other than your own gut instinct doesn't really qualify you to decide who looks silly.

    Surely there's more than gut instinct - look at A&E waiting times, primary school places, traffic jams, overcrowded trains, even the spare capacity in the electricity system. There must be more examples.

    I accept the point that we could in theory cope with this with more investment etc but in case you hadn't noticed the economy is not doing that well despite record low interest rates and the high employment figures mask a large amount of underemployment. Damian Green was on 5 live this morning trumpeting the fact that the NHS budget had been "protected" - but it needs much more than that, and it comes at the expense of cuts elsewhere anyway.

    320K in a year represents ~ 0.5% population growth p.a. independent of increase due to birth rate increasing and falling death rate. I admit I do not know the net effect of this...may be about break even? But birth rate is rising. >0.5% is a lot...

    Whatever the rights and wrongs, a lot of people with a vote do not agree with you, and frankly won't be persuaded by your breathtakingly smug and patronising dismissals.
  • Indigo
    Indigo Posts: 9,966
    Scott_P said:

    VapidBilge said:

    aren't we attempting to do exactly that in this referendum?

    This is not an election.
    It would be pretty soon if the government tried to ignore the results of the referendum.
  • SouthamObserver
    SouthamObserver Posts: 40,054
    JonCisBack said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    @blackburn63 Once again, it is futile speculating about numerical upper bounds on population capacity of the island of Britain because we cannot be in possession of all the relevant facts for determining what that upper bound might be.

    PS Your inability to accept my basic point that Britain's population has grown rapidly and you are arbitrarily calling a halt to that process right now on the basis of no evidence other than your own gut instinct doesn't really qualify you to decide who looks silly.

    Surely there's more than gut instinct - look at A&E waiting times, primary school places, traffic jams, overcrowded trains, even the spare capacity in the electricity system. There must be more examples.

    I accept the point that we could in theory cope with this with more investment etc but in case you hadn't noticed the economy is not doing that well despite record low interest rates and the high employment figures mask a large amount of underemployment. Damian Green was on 5 live this morning trumpeting the fact that the NHS budget had been "protected" - but it needs much more than that, and it comes at the expense of cuts elsewhere anyway.

    320K in a year represents ~ 0.5% population growth p.a. independent of increase due to birth rate increasing and falling death rate. I admit I do not know the net effect of this...may be about break even? But birth rate is rising.

    Whatever the rights and wrongs, a lot of people with a vote do not agree with you, and frankly won't be persuaded by your breathtakingly smug and patronising dismissals.

    Yep, the deep cuts to public services that the Tory Leavers so enthusiastically supported have had a significant impact on public services.

  • Indigo
    Indigo Posts: 9,966
    SouthamObserver said:

    VapidBilge said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    JonathanD said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    PAW said:

    So Mr Meeks and Roger, your holidays are more important than the little people's needs?

    The "little people " are going to be right royally screwed if it turns out that the warnings about leaving the EU are correct. Just as they would have been screwed in Scotland if they had listened to the SNP and not the experts in 20I4 and voted for independence.

    Tell me the "little people" in Spain and Italy and Greece haven't been royally screwed whilst in the EU?

    The "little people" get screwed. They are getting-screwed fodder. But I would rather they were getting screwed by a national Govt. they can finally have enough of getting screwed by and boot out, rather than getting screwed by an EU Govt. they can not. I'm a patrician like that.

    The little people of Spain, Greece and Italy are getting screwed because they voted for Governments that wanted to join and stay in the Euro. If they had been sensible, then like the UK they should have stayed out of the Euro or vote for a government that would take them out.
    The democratic will of the "little people" of Greece and Italy got rolled by the EU - their votes were deemed an awkward road-block. So they drove over them...

    Election votes do not undo international obligations agreed by previous governments.
    Nice to see the 'we are still a sovereign nation' argument skewered so effectively by a Remainer.

    Anyway, aren't we attempting to do exactly that in this referendum?

    No. We are deciding whether we want to leave the EU. Under the international treaty we signed to join up it is perfectly acceptable to do that.

    We could perfectly legally and properly repeal the European Communities Act (1972), the HRA and a few other key bits of legislation with a one clause bill through parliament, it would piss a lot of people off to be sure, but ultimately what are they going to do about it ? Spare us a lot of cutting off their nose to spite their face actions that won't actually happen.
  • SouthamObserver
    SouthamObserver Posts: 40,054
    Indigo said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    VapidBilge said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    JonathanD said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    PAW said:

    So Mr Meeks and Roger, your holidays are more important than the little people's needs?

    The "little people " are going to be right royally screwed if it turns out that the warnings about leaving the EU are correct. Just as they would have been screwed in Scotland if they had listened to the SNP and not the experts in 20I4 and voted for independence.

    Tell me the "little people" in Spain and Italy and Greece haven't been royally screwed whilst in the EU?

    The "little people" get screwed. They are getting-screwed fodder. But I would rather they were getting screwed by a national Govt. they can finally have enough of getting screwed by and boot out, rather than getting screwed by an EU Govt. they can not. I'm a patrician like that.

    The little people of Spain, Greece and Italy are getting screwed because they voted for Governments that wanted to join and stay in the Euro. If they had been sensible, then like the UK they should have stayed out of the Euro or vote for a government that would take them out.
    The democratic will of the "little people" of Greece and Italy got rolled by the EU - their votes were deemed an awkward road-block. So they drove over them...

    Election votes do not undo international obligations agreed by previous governments.
    Nice to see the 'we are still a sovereign nation' argument skewered so effectively by a Remainer.

    Anyway, aren't we attempting to do exactly that in this referendum?

    No. We are deciding whether we want to leave the EU. Under the international treaty we signed to join up it is perfectly acceptable to do that.

    We could perfectly legally and properly repeal the European Communities Act (1972), the HRA and a few other key bits of legislation with a one clause bill through parliament, it would piss a lot of people off to be sure, but ultimately what are they going to do about it ? Spare us a lot of cutting off their nose to spite their face actions that won't actually happen.

    Yes, indeed. We are sovereign.

  • Sean_F
    Sean_F Posts: 39,132
    Yougov (polling done on Monday and Tuesday) have Leave and Remain tied at 41% each.
  • Indigo
    Indigo Posts: 9,966
    SouthamObserver said:

    Indigo said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    VapidBilge said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    JonathanD said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    PAW said:

    So Mr Meeks and Roger, your holidays are more important than the little people's needs?

    The "little people " are going to be right royally screwed if it turns out that the warnings about leaving the EU are correct. Just as they would have been screwed in Scotland if they had listened to the SNP and not the experts in 20I4 and voted for independence.

    Tell me the "little people" in Spain and Italy and Greece haven't been royally screwed whilst in the EU?

    The "little people" get screwed. They are getting-screwed fodder. But I would rather they were getting screwed by a national Govt. they can finally have enough of getting screwed by and boot out, rather than getting screwed by an EU Govt. they can not. I'm a patrician like that.

    The little people of Spain, Greece and Italy are getting screwed because they voted for Governments that wanted to join and stay in the Euro. If they had been sensible, then like the UK they should have stayed out of the Euro or vote for a government that would take them out.
    The democratic will of the "little people" of Greece and Italy got rolled by the EU - their votes were deemed an awkward road-block. So they drove over them...

    Election votes do not undo international obligations agreed by previous governments.
    Nice to see the 'we are still a sovereign nation' argument skewered so effectively by a Remainer.

    Anyway, aren't we attempting to do exactly that in this referendum?

    No. We are deciding whether we want to leave the EU. Under the international treaty we signed to join up it is perfectly acceptable to do that.

    We could perfectly legally and properly repeal the European Communities Act (1972), the HRA and a few other key bits of legislation with a one clause bill through parliament, it would piss a lot of people off to be sure, but ultimately what are they going to do about it ? Spare us a lot of cutting off their nose to spite their face actions that won't actually happen.

    Yes, indeed. We are sovereign.

    But we won't. So we are not sovereign.

    The Queen is the most powerful person in the country, she could refuse to sign into law any act of parliament she didn't like. Will she ? No. So she has no power.

    Power that you never use is not power.
  • Sean_F
    Sean_F Posts: 39,132
    I think that Remain will still scrape home, but if they do (or don't) a degree of humility on the part of the establishment bodies that advocate Remain, and European institutions would be in order.

    If they were not endlessly trying to draw power away from national political institutions towards supranational bodies, and weren't so wedded to the mass migration of peoples, they would not be facing their current predicament.
  • foxinsoxuk
    foxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    blackburn63 said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    blackburn63 said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    blackburn63 said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    @blackburn63 There are three dimensions and we don't use the third one anywhere near enough. If we used that one more, we wouldn't need to cover the country with more tarmac.

    In 5000 BC the population of England was about 6,000. By 1801 the population of England was just under 8 million. in 2011 the population of England was just over 53 million. We have been coping with population growth for millennia and rapid population growth for two centuries. I don't think we've yet reached anything like our conceivable limit just yet.

    Prevarication.

    80m, 100m, 200m - when would you cry enough?

    How many more schools, hospitals, roads etc do we need to build before you join the majority of the UK who see the rapid rise in population as a problem?

    Cameron foresaw the problem, he promised to cut it to sustainable levels.

    Your argument, such as it is, is lost.
    Half the rise in population in the ONS forecast is down to endogenous growth, and of the half that is down to migration only half is down to EU migration. Leaving the EU with an absolute halt to EU migration still results in 75% or so of the projected 4 million population rise.

    I'll ask you the same question:

    Do you foresee a time when we'll need to man?age population numbers: if sowhen
    I see that over the next fifteen years a lot of youthful migration will be required to support the aging population. Remember the ONS projection does not expand the Labour force, the population 18-65 being stable and the increase being the over 65s and over 75s in particular. If we do not have immigration we will have an expanding elderly population and a contracting working age population.

    At that point the pyramidal age distribution will have a long term stability and so our population would stabilise. I think forecasts on population more than 20 years into the future are very speculative, as fertility rates are declining worldwide.
    OK have another go:

    Do you foresee a time when we'll need to manage population numbers: if so when?

    It maybe that your answer is NO, of course.
    The numbers will manage themselves, and the 75% of the change (minimum) is happening anyway. What governments have failed to do is support the infrastructure.

    It is market forces (and applying to endogenous growth and non EU migration too) and management needs to be by market forces too. Changes to our welfare state to make benefits conditional on a track record of contributions etc.
  • AlastairMeeks
    AlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    @JonCisBack I don't come on pb to persuade. No one who comes on pb is persuadable.

    Occasionally I throw a brick in the hall of mirrors that some posters love to live in. I don't expect to be thanked for that.

    And so it turns out. Looking down thread, you can count for yourself the posters who decide to attack me rather than my argument or to complain about the terms I put my argument in rather than to deal with the argument itself. The number is not a small one (not that it bothers me in the slightest).

    As it happens, my view is that the Leave vote is primarily driven by the austerity measures introduced since 2010. Much of that spending had a purpose. The lack of investment rather than the number of immigrants is what is driving the frustration.
  • Scott_P
    Scott_P Posts: 51,453
    Indigo said:

    Power that you never use is not power.

    Straight from a CND pamphlet.

    And Bollocks
  • Jonathan
    Jonathan Posts: 22,107
    Indigo said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    Indigo said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    VapidBilge said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    JonathanD said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    PAW said:

    So Mr Meeks and Roger, your holidays are more important than the little people's needs?

    The "little people " are going to be right royally screwed if it turns out that the warnings about leaving the EU are correct. Just as they would have been screwed in Scotland if they had listened to the SNP and not the experts in 20I4 and voted for independence.

    Tell me the "little people" in Spain and Italy and Greece haven't been royally screwed whilst in the EU?

    The "little people" get screwed. They are getting-screwed fodder. But I would rather they were getting screwed by a national Govt. they can finally have enough of getting screwed by and boot out, rather than getting screwed by an EU Govt. they can not. I'm a patrician like that.

    The little people of Spain, Greece and Italy are getting screwed because they voted for Governments that wanted to join and stay in the Euro. If they had been sensible, then like the UK they should have stayed out of the Euro or vote for a government that would take them out.
    The democratic will of the "little people" of Greece and Italy got rolled by the EU - their votes were deemed an awkward road-block. So they drove over them...

    Election votes do not undo international obligations agreed by previous governments.
    Nice to see the 'we are still a sovereign nation' argument skewered so effectively by a Remainer.

    Anyway, aren't we attempting to do exactly that in this referendum?

    No. We are deciding whether we want to leave the EU. Under the international treaty we signed to join up it is perfectly acceptable to do that.

    We could perfectly legally and properly repeal the European Communities Act (1972), the HRA and a few other key bits of legislation with a one clause bill through parliament, it would piss a lot of people off to be sure, but ultimately what are they going to do about it ? Spare us a lot of cutting off their nose to spite their face actions that won't actually happen.

    Yes, indeed. We are sovereign.

    But we won't. So we are not sovereign.

    The Queen is the most powerful person in the country, she could refuse to sign into law any act of parliament she didn't like. Will she ? No. So she has no power.

    Power that you never use is not power.
    What about the deterrent effect?
  • PlatoSaid
    PlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Sean_F said:

    Yougov (polling done on Monday and Tuesday) have Leave and Remain tied at 41% each.

    Isn't it exciting! Whatever the result, the ground has shifted. The EU isn't a peripheral issue and isn't going away if Remain wins.
  • Scott_P
    Scott_P Posts: 51,453
    Jonathan said:

    What about the deterrent effect?

    Jinx
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,806
    Latest @YouGov EURef poll fieldwork ended 31/5

    Remain 41 (nc) Leave 41 (nc)

    When DKs are squeezed Remain 44 Leave 43 https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/5410is51bi/TimesResults_160531_EURef&HousePrices_W.pdf
  • SouthamObserver
    SouthamObserver Posts: 40,054
    Indigo said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    Indigo said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    VapidBilge said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    JonathanD said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    PAW said:

    So Mr Meeks and Roger, your holidays are more important than the little people's needs?

    The "little people " are going to be right royally screwed if it turns out that the warnings about leaving the EU are correct. Just as they would have been screwed in Scotland if they had listened to the SNP and not the experts in 20I4 and voted for independence.

    Tell me the "little people" in Spain and Italy and Greece haven't been royally screwed whilst in the EU?

    The "little people" get screwed. They are getting-screwed fodder. But I would rather they were getting screwed by a national Govt. they can finally have enough of getting screwed by and boot out, rather than getting screwed by an EU Govt. they can not. I'm a patrician like that.

    The would take them out.
    The democratic will of the "little people" of Greece and Italy got rolled by the EU - their votes were deemed an awkward road-block. So they drove over them...

    Election votes do not undo international obligations agreed by previous governments.
    Nice to see the 'we are still a sovereign nation' argument skewered so effectively by a Remainer.

    Anyway, aren't we attempting to do exactly that in this referendum?

    No. We are deciding whether we want to leave the EU. Under the international treaty we signed to join up it is perfectly acceptable to do that.

    We could perfectly legally and properly repeal the European Communities Act (1972), the HRA and a few other key bits of legislation with a one clause bill through parliament, it would piss a lot of people off to be sure, but ultimately what are they going to do about it ? Spare us a lot of cutting off their nose to spite their face actions that won't actually happen.

    Yes, indeed. We are sovereign.

    But we won't. So we are not sovereign.

    The Queen is the most powerful person in the country, she could refuse to sign into law any act of parliament she didn't like. Will she ? No. So she has no power.

    Power that you never use is not power.

    Eh, if we don't do something we could do it means we are not able to do it? So our independent nuclear deterrent is entirely pointless unless we fire off the odd nuclear missile at someone every now and again?

  • john_zims
    john_zims Posts: 3,399
    @Big_G_NorthWales


    'Very interesting article in the Telegraph today on the warnings being issued by Donald Tusk to the Commission about the desire to move away from ever closer union by various Countries and that the Commission just do not get it. The idea that a remain vote will entrench the EU does not seem to be valid according to this article and that Brexit has empowered a Europe wide revolt against the Commission, that is only going to increase no matter the result of the UK referendum'


    That's just a game being played between Tusk & Junker for the media because the polls are close,this will all be quickly forgotten if Remain wins.

    For the past 20 years we have heard UK politicians of all parties telling us that the EU must be reformed,but at the same time receiving more EU.

    We have had a year of negotiations based on an IN/OUT referendum and ended up with peanuts.

    You seriously believe Tusk & Junker are interested in reform ?
  • Indigo
    Indigo Posts: 9,966
    edited June 2016
    Jonathan said:

    What about the deterrent effect?

    To be a credible deterrent people have to believe you might use it (which is why Scott as usual is talking out of his ar*e).

    When your PM walks up to the renegotiations and announces to his counterparts that there is no way he could conceive of supporting the UK leaving the EU, and in fact he plans to use the referendum to "dock" the UK with the EU, how credible do you think his threats to leave were ? He had no power, and hence no result at that renegotiation because he had no credibility.
  • Morris_Dancer
    Morris_Dancer Posts: 62,742
    Mr. Zims, if only Tusk and Juncker had had a recent opportunity to actually put reform into action, perhaps through the renegotiation of one member's relationship with the EU.
  • PlatoSaid
    PlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    OMW Corbyn's Vice docu

    Mark Wallace
    His response to the @Freedland article as "utterly disgusting subliminal nastiness" is appalling. Here's the piece https://t.co/BcnKxan3KP
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