@PeterMannionMP: One week Vote Leave threaten ITV for allowing Nigel Farage near a TV screen, next week they're parroting all UKIP's worst lines. #EUref
@blackburn63 If you had asked your ancestor in 1801 whether England could support a population nearly seven times that of his time, he would have been horrified at the idea. He could not have conceived of the technological advances that made that possible, and in a way that meant almost all of those people lived life in far more comfort than almost all of the people of his day.
Asking me whether Britain can support a population nearly three times that of today is equally pointless. We simply do not know and cannot conceive what technological advances might take place in the relevant timescale.
I'm happy to speculate even 40 years ahead but I'll leave longer time horizons to those who can't imagine the world ever changing.
So Mr Meeks and Roger, your holidays are more important than the little people's needs?
The "little people " are going to be right royally screwed if it turns out that the warnings about leaving the EU are correct. Just as they would have been screwed in Scotland if they had listened to the SNP and not the experts in 20I4 and voted for independence.
Tell me the "little people" in Spain and Italy and Greece haven't been royally screwed whilst in the EU?
The "little people" get screwed. They are getting-screwed fodder. But I would rather they were getting screwed by a national Govt. they can finally have enough of getting screwed by and boot out, rather than getting screwed by an EU Govt. they can not. I'm a patrician like that.
Shall we start a competition for "The Most Patronising Post of the Day"?
So Mr Meeks and Roger, your holidays are more important than the little people's needs?
The "little people " are going to be right royally screwed if it turns out that the warnings about leaving the EU are correct. Just as they would have been screwed in Scotland if they had listened to the SNP and not the experts in 20I4 and voted for independence.
Tell me the "little people" in Spain and Italy and Greece haven't been royally screwed whilst in the EU?
The "little people" get screwed. They are getting-screwed fodder. But I would rather they were getting screwed by a national Govt. they can finally have enough of getting screwed by and boot out, rather than getting screwed by an EU Govt. they can not. I'm a patrician like that.
The little people of Spain, Greece and Italy are getting screwed because they voted for Governments that wanted to join and stay in the Euro. If they had been sensible, then like the UK they should have stayed out of the Euro or vote for a government that would take them out.
@blackburn63 I've given a very clear answer. If your mind is too small to understand a radically changed world in 100 years' time, it's unsurprising that you're a fervent kipper.
On the basis that leave win and move towards a points system by 2020 how many will rush to this Country in the next four years, 500,000 pa or more and how do we stop them
@blackburn63 There are three dimensions and we don't use the third one anywhere near enough. If we used that one more, we wouldn't need to cover the country with more tarmac.
In 5000 BC the population of England was about 6,000. By 1801 the population of England was just under 8 million. in 2011 the population of England was just over 53 million. We have been coping with population growth for millennia and rapid population growth for two centuries. I don't think we've yet reached anything like our conceivable limit just yet.
Prevarication.
80m, 100m, 200m - when would you cry enough?
How many more schools, hospitals, roads etc do we need to build before you join the majority of the UK who see the rapid rise in population as a problem?
Cameron foresaw the problem, he promised to cut it to sustainable levels.
Your argument, such as it is, is lost.
Half the rise in population in the ONS forecast is down to endogenous growth, and of the half that is down to migration only half is down to EU migration. Leaving the EU with an absolute halt to EU migration still results in 75% or so of the projected 4 million population rise.
I'll ask you the same question:
Do you foresee a time when we'll need to manage population numbers: if so when?
I see that over the next fifteen years a lot of youthful migration will be required to support the aging population. Remember the ONS projection does not expand the Labour force, the population 18-65 being stable and the increase being the over 65s and over 75s in particular. If we do not have immigration we will have an expanding elderly population and a contracting working age population.
At that point the pyramidal age distribution will have a long term stability and so our population would stabilise. I think forecasts on population more than 20 years into the future are very speculative, as fertility rates are declining worldwide.
So Mr Meeks and Roger, your holidays are more important than the little people's needs?
The "little people " are going to be right royally screwed if it turns out that the warnings about leaving the EU are correct. Just as they would have been screwed in Scotland if they had listened to the SNP and not the experts in 20I4 and voted for independence.
Tell me the "little people" in Spain and Italy and Greece haven't been royally screwed whilst in the EU?
The "little people" get screwed. They are getting-screwed fodder. But I would rather they were getting screwed by a national Govt. they can finally have enough of getting screwed by and boot out, rather than getting screwed by an EU Govt. they can not. I'm a patrician like that.
Shall we start a competition for "The Most Patronising Post of the Day"?
@EdConwaySky: OECD warns (again) Brexit wld be bad news for the world economy, cuts UK GDP forecast to 1.7% from 2.2% https://t.co/rQjlfGOf7Z
Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No it's the four horsemen of the Apocalypse of course.
Remain haven't yet clocked that people see this vote in more than just monetary terms. And it still seems to be their only argument - I've not really seen a positive reason why we should stay in apart from the supposed risk of economic doom.
On the basis that leave win and move towards a points system by 2020 how many will rush to this Country in the next four years, 500,000 pa or more and how do we stop them
We could always legalise shooting swarthy people. Or make Arabic and Urdu official languages. Or something.
@blackburn63 I've given a very clear answer. If your mind is too small to understand a radically changed world in 100 years' time, it's unsurprising that you're a fervent kipper.
I understand the implications of rapid population growth in terms of infrastructure. I invited you to spend an evening with me on a council estate where we could have discussed the problems people face with school places, doctors, dentists etc.
Your response was to make a spurious reference to 5000 BC.
You are very close, as usual, to resorting to insults, much to the amusement of posters such as vapid bilge. There is a special pleasure in seeing pompous people make fools of themselves.
@blackburn63 There are three dimensions and we don't use the third one anywhere near enough. If we used that one more, we wouldn't need to cover the country with more tarmac.
In 5000 BC the population of England was about 6,000. By 1801 the population of England was just under 8 million. in 2011 the population of England was just over 53 million. We have been coping with population growth for millennia and rapid population growth for two centuries. I don't think we've yet reached anything like our conceivable limit just yet.
Prevarication.
80m, 100m, 200m - when would you cry enough?
How many more schools, hospitals, roads etc do we need to build before you join the majority of the UK who see the rapid rise in population as a problem?
Cameron foresaw the problem, he promised to cut it to sustainable levels.
Your argument, such as it is, is lost.
Half the rise in population in the ONS forecast is down to endogenous growth, and of the half that is down to migration only half is down to EU migration. Leaving the EU with an absolute halt to EU migration still results in 75% or so of the projected 4 million population rise.
I'll ask you the same question:
Do you foresee a time when we'll need to manage population numbers: if so when?
I see that over the next fifteen years a lot of youthful migration will be required to support the aging population. Remember the ONS projection does not expand the Labour force, the population 18-65 being stable and the increase being the over 65s and over 75s in particular. If we do not have immigration we will have an expanding elderly population and a contracting working age population.
At that point the pyramidal age distribution will have a long term stability and so our population would stabilise. I think forecasts on population more than 20 years into the future are very speculative, as fertility rates are declining worldwide.
Errm Don't the immigrants get old too ?
The solution is clearly to entice single young polish girls who stay from 18 - 35 and then toddle back off to Warsaw without popping a sprog here somehow discourage that from happening !
Edit: @foxinsoxuk No, really won't the immigrants get old too o_O ?
So Mr Meeks and Roger, your holidays are more important than the little people's needs?
The "little people " are going to be right royally screwed if it turns out that the warnings about leaving the EU are correct. Just as they would have been screwed in Scotland if they had listened to the SNP and not the experts in 20I4 and voted for independence.
Tell me the "little people" in Spain and Italy and Greece haven't been royally screwed whilst in the EU?
The "little people" get screwed. They are getting-screwed fodder. But I would rather they were getting screwed by a national Govt. they can finally have enough of getting screwed by and boot out, rather than getting screwed by an EU Govt. they can not. I'm a patrician like that.
The little people of Spain, Greece and Italy are getting screwed because they voted for Governments that wanted to join and stay in the Euro. If they had been sensible, then like the UK they should have stayed out of the Euro or vote for a government that would take them out.
The democratic will of the "little people" of Greece and Italy got rolled by the EU - their votes were deemed an awkward road-block. So they drove over them...
On the basis that leave win and move towards a points system by 2020 how many will rush to this Country in the next four years, 500,000 pa or more and how do we stop them
BREAKING: #EU Court now ordering UK to increase VAT on green products including insulation materials and boiler controls from 5% to 20%.
"Last month, amendments to the Government’s Finance Bill to prevent the existing rate going up from 5% to 20% were strongly put forward to the Government. Minsters consequently agreed to allow their own legislation to be amended to give the Treasury the power to resist the EU VAT rules. In conclusion, the reduced rate continues to apply as before."
In last year's British Social Attitudes study it was found that 65% of respondents wanted to either leave the EU or reduce it's powers.
19% wanted to retain the existing arrangement.
Just 11% wanted further integration or a single european government.
The BSA is carried out using gold standard random sampling.
This is the $64,000 question.
The British people are not happy with the EU status quo. They do not want political or economic union. They do not want mass immigration. They do want to be able to go on holiday there, do business there, trade freely with it as an open accessible market and, occasionally, retire there to a nice place in the sun.
Cameron promised in 2014 to 'get what Britain needs', on both migration, human rights and laws. The fact he totally failed to do so, and the EU were completely obstinate in making any concessions whatsoever for the UK, is telling. Had a deal on practical limits on free movement been struck, with opt-outs on justice and home affairs secured, with a British veto on matters of national interest, this wouldn't even be close. We would stay.
However, he got nothing and he has added insult to injury by putting nothing on the table as an alternative at all. This, combined with domesday scenarios and predictions of apocalypse if we Leave, he is hoping will threaten and bully British swing voters into having no option but to vote Remain. And thus protect the status quo for a very long time to come.
It's outrageous. Both the EU and the UK Government have put British swing voters in a totally invidious position, and they're not happy about it. At all.
If (and it's a big if) this blows up in their faces it will be a damning verdict on the attempts of both the Government - and the intractability of the EU - to browbeat British voters into voting for something that they do not want, and which does not even begin to address their fundamental concerns.
@blackburn63 I've given a very clear answer. If your mind is too small to understand a radically changed world in 100 years' time, it's unsurprising that you're a fervent kipper.
You really are making the case so very well for Remainers being patronising arseholes...
@blackburn63 There are three dimensions and we don't use the third one anywhere near enough. If we used that one more, we wouldn't need to cover the country with more tarmac.
In 5000 BC the population of England was about 6,000. By 1801 the population of England was just under 8 million. in 2011 the population of England was just over 53 million. We have been coping with population growth for millennia and rapid population growth for two centuries. I don't think we've yet reached anything like our conceivable limit just yet.
Prevarication.
80m, 100m, 200m - when would you cry enough?
How many more schools, hospitals, roads etc do we need to build before you join the majority of the UK who see the rapid rise in population as a problem?
Cameron foresaw the problem, he promised to cut it to sustainable levels.
Your argument, such as it is, is lost.
Half the rise in population in the ONS forecast is down to endogenous growth, and of the half that is down to migration only half is down to EU migration. Leaving the EU with an absolute halt to EU migration still results in 75% or so of the projected 4 million population rise.
I'll ask you the same question:
Do you foresee a time when we'll need to man?age population numbers: if sowhen
I see that over the next fifteen years a lot of youthful migration will be required to support the aging population. Remember the ONS projection does not expand the Labour force, the population 18-65 being stable and the increase being the over 65s and over 75s in particular. If we do not have immigration we will have an expanding elderly population and a contracting working age population.
At that point the pyramidal age distribution will have a long term stability and so our population would stabilise. I think forecasts on population more than 20 years into the future are very speculative, as fertility rates are declining worldwide.
OK have another go:
Do you foresee a time when we'll need to manage population numbers: if so when?
Ultimatly, the value of the currency will be set by the fundementals. The fundementals are not Leave/Remain but balance of payments deficit, current account deficit, interest rates, productivity, government credibility and so on. These fundementals will not change in the event of either outcome in the referendum.
I think there is little doubt that there will be single market access based upon EFTA or similar.
These 2 statements are contradictory.
If leave wins on a message of closed borders, then "single market access based upon EFTA" completely destroys "government credibility"
The official Leave campaign is not the government. When talking about credibility, I am specifically refering to the financial markets - the govenment has not met its fiscal targets and is not looking competent. Their rhetoric is not matched by their performance with regard to the deficit.
BREAKING: #EU Court now ordering UK to increase VAT on green products including insulation materials and boiler controls from 5% to 20%.
"Last month, amendments to the Government’s Finance Bill to prevent the existing rate going up from 5% to 20% were strongly put forward to the Government. Minsters consequently agreed to allow their own legislation to be amended to give the Treasury the power to resist the EU VAT rules. In conclusion, the reduced rate continues to apply as before."
@blackburn63 There is nothing spurious about noting that the population limits of Britain have risen out of all recognition since the dawn of human history. (I can just imagine a troglodyte blackburn63 raving about the Beaker People coming over here and taking our jobs.) You are effectively arguing that right now, after millennia of population growth, we can conclude that we unprecedentedly have reached a point where Britain Is Full.
I'm quite happy to be on the side of those who think that there is nothing particularly unusual about the present day moment.
BREAKING: #EU Court now ordering UK to increase VAT on green products including insulation materials and boiler controls from 5% to 20%.
"Last month, amendments to the Government’s Finance Bill to prevent the existing rate going up from 5% to 20% were strongly put forward to the Government. Minsters consequently agreed to allow their own legislation to be amended to give the Treasury the power to resist the EU VAT rules. In conclusion, the reduced rate continues to apply as before."
Very interesting article in the Telegraph today on the warnings being issued by Donald Tusk to the Commission about the desire to move away from ever closer union by various Countries and that the Commission just do not get it. The idea that a remain vote will entrench the EU does not seem to be valid according to this article and that Brexit has empowered a Europe wide revolt against the Commission, that is only going to increase no matter the result of the UK referendum
From my sick bed I see a very complicated but malevolent picture taking place as referendum day gets nearer.
My advice: Buy Eros short term. Buy $ long term. But above all put away a bit of Gold.
Buy Eros...Brexit means price of hookers to rise...
must be a mistype.
I suspect the Eros might work out better than the euros. If there is a Leave vote the euro will be trashed against pretty much everything except GBP. It's not a great secret that the eurozone is on the precipice anyway.
From here, I'd reckon sterling would be off 8-10% against the dollar, and the Euro off 4-6%
I'm going for much more. Not because I believe that is particularly justified but because the loss of liquidity in the markets means overshoots are much bigger.
If (and it's a big if) this blows up in their faces it will be a damning verdict on the attempts of both the Government - and the intractability of the EU - to browbeat British voters into voting for something that they do not want, and which does not even begin to address their fundamental concerns.
@blackburn63 There is nothing spurious about noting that the population limits of Britain have risen out of all recognition since the dawn of human history. (I can just imagine a troglodyte blackburn63 raving about the Beaker People coming over here and taking our jobs.) You are effectively arguing that right now, after millennia of population growth, we can conclude that we unprecedentedly have reached a point where Britain Is Full.
I'm quite happy to be on the side of those who think that there is nothing particularly unusual about the present day moment.
3rd time lucky, I'm nothing if not an optimist.
Do you foresee a time when we should manage population numbers and if so when?
@blackburn63 I've given a very clear answer. If your mind is too small to understand a radically changed world in 100 years' time, it's unsurprising that you're a fervent kipper.
You really are making the case so very well for Remainers being patronising arseholes...
Alastair exemplifies the problems with the Remain side only too well.
On the basis that leave win and move towards a points system by 2020 how many will rush to this Country in the next four years, 500,000 pa or more and how do we stop them
We could always legalise shooting swarthy people. Or make Arabic and Urdu official languages. Or something.
But do you not agree it is a fair question and almost certainly will be raised in the next few weeks
On the basis that leave win and move towards a points system by 2020 how many will rush to this Country in the next four years, 500,000 pa or more and how do we stop them
Do YOU think we should stop them?
Well as a leaver I think you should answer the question as it will be caused by leaving.
On the basis that leave win and move towards a points system by 2020 how many will rush to this Country in the next four years, 500,000 pa or more and how do we stop them
Do YOU think we should stop them?
Well as a leaver I think you should answer the question as it will be caused by leaving.
But you are a Tory supporter and member, and its the Tory government that gets to make the call on the 24th June or shortly thereafter and neither of the campaign groups.
On the basis that leave win and move towards a points system by 2020 how many will rush to this Country in the next four years, 500,000 pa or more and how do we stop them
Do YOU think we should stop them?
Well as a leaver I think you should answer the question as it will be caused by leaving.
I have asked 3 Remainers today if they think we should manage population numbers, all three have prevaricated and refused to answer the question.
Very interesting article in the Telegraph today on the warnings being issued by Donald Tusk to the Commission about the desire to move away from ever closer union by various Countries and that the Commission just do not get it. The idea that a remain vote will entrench the EU does not seem to be valid according to this article and that Brexit has empowered a Europe wide revolt against the Commission, that is only going to increase no matter the result of the UK referendum
All the evidence is against you though. The EU are masters at doing this. Look at the way they destroyed Blair by promising to 'look at' the CAP in return for Britain's billions. Result? no change.
The overwhelming evidence is they will never change. Judge people not by what they say, but what they do.
@EdConwaySky: OECD warns (again) Brexit wld be bad news for the world economy, cuts UK GDP forecast to 1.7% from 2.2% https://t.co/rQjlfGOf7Z
Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No it's the four horsemen of the Apocalypse of course.
Remain haven't yet clocked that people see this vote in more than just monetary terms. And it still seems to be their only argument - I've not really seen a positive reason why we should stay in apart from the supposed risk of economic doom.
Absolutely. Remainers are only talking about money. Entirely missing the point that those without much, who rent, are seeing wages fall, or will take a small financial hit don't care.
These are frequently the same people who voted Tory despite cuts et al. They weighed the whole picture.
@blackburn63 Once again, it is futile speculating about numerical upper bounds on population capacity of the island of Britain because we cannot be in possession of all the relevant facts for determining what that upper bound might be.
I am quite prepared to accept that there is a theoretical upper bound. I very much doubt whether we need to manage population numbers more aggressively than we currently do because I expect that long before we have reached the upper bound for this island, world population will have peaked and other countries will prove more desirable destinations.
PS Your inability to accept my basic point that Britain's population has grown rapidly and you are arbitrarily calling a halt to that process right now on the basis of no evidence other than your own gut instinct doesn't really qualify you to decide who looks silly.
For oil read the Single Market. It is now completely clear that two years following the Leave vote we will no longer be a part of that. We have to hope that the Leave camp is correct and that removing ourselves from the Single Market will have no adverse consequences - either directly or indirectly.
As so often i think you are right. But I suspect that we may differ on our levels of optimism about what might happen after we leave. UK Businesses will adapt to the new circumstances, and find a way forward.
The many continental businesses who depend largely or even partly on the UK for their profitability will also not be idle or just accept worse trading circumstances whatever they may be.
The world will adapt, move on, markets will change. I am sure we will suffer in the short term economically by leaving, but I very much doubt it will be a huge or permanent effect, and the fate of the rest of the EU does not look rosy - we may very well be better off out in 5 years time or less.
(Apols - buggered up the attempt at editing it to make it shorter...above quote is by SO...)
So Mr Meeks and Roger, your holidays are more important than the little people's needs?
The "little people " are going to be right royally screwed if it turns out that the warnings about leaving the EU are correct. Just as they would have been screwed in Scotland if they had listened to the SNP and not the experts in 20I4 and voted for independence.
Tell me the "little people" in Spain and Italy and Greece haven't been royally screwed whilst in the EU?
The "little people" get screwed. They are getting-screwed fodder. But I would rather they were getting screwed by a national Govt. they can finally have enough of getting screwed by and boot out, rather than getting screwed by an EU Govt. they can not. I'm a patrician like that.
The little people of Spain, Greece and Italy are getting screwed because they voted for Governments that wanted to join and stay in the Euro. If they had been sensible, then like the UK they should have stayed out of the Euro or vote for a government that would take them out.
The democratic will of the "little people" of Greece and Italy got rolled by the EU - their votes were deemed an awkward road-block. So they drove over them...
Election votes do not undo international obligations agreed by previous governments.
@blackburn63 Once again, it is futile speculating about numerical upper bounds on population capacity of the island of Britain because we cannot be in possession of all the relevant facts for determining what that upper bound might be.
I am quite prepared to accept that there is a theoretical upper bound. I very much doubt whether we need to manage population numbers more aggressively than we currently do because I expect that long before we have reached the upper bound for this island, world population will have peaked and other countries will prove more desirable destinations.
PS Your inability to accept my basic point that Britain's population has grown rapidly and you are arbitrarily calling a halt to that process right now on the basis of no evidence other than your own gut instinct doesn't really qualify you to decide who looks silly.
One of us is enjoying this Meeks, and it ain't you (smiley face)
So Mr Meeks and Roger, your holidays are more important than the little people's needs?
The "little people " are going to be right royally screwed if it turns out that the warnings about leaving the EU are correct. Just as they would have been screwed in Scotland if they had listened to the SNP and not the experts in 20I4 and voted for independence.
Tell me the "little people" in Spain and Italy and Greece haven't been royally screwed whilst in the EU?
The "little people" get screwed. They are getting-screwed fodder. But I would rather they were getting screwed by a national Govt. they can finally have enough of getting screwed by and boot out, rather than getting screwed by an EU Govt. they can not. I'm a patrician like that.
So you would you would be happy with a situation in which they were worse off out of the EU than better off inside it. Fair enough, but let's not pretend you actually care about them then.
On the basis that leave win and move towards a points system by 2020 how many will rush to this Country in the next four years, 500,000 pa or more and how do we stop them
Do YOU think we should stop them?
Well as a leaver I think you should answer the question as it will be caused by leaving.
But you are a Tory supporter and member, and its the Tory government that gets to make the call on the 24th June or shortly thereafter and neither of the campaign groups.
I support stopping benefits for four years for all immigrants and for the UK government to move the system for everyone to only get out when put in. I do believe that unemployment at 5% diminishes the case against of 184,000 EU immigrants last year as they are needed to fuel our expanding economy. I do support David Cameron but accept his immigration promise was ill advised
Very interesting article in the Telegraph today on the warnings being issued by Donald Tusk to the Commission about the desire to move away from ever closer union by various Countries and that the Commission just do not get it. The idea that a remain vote will entrench the EU does not seem to be valid according to this article and that Brexit has empowered a Europe wide revolt against the Commission, that is only going to increase no matter the result of the UK referendum
Would this be the same Tusk that earlier this year was one of the co signatories of the Five Presidents Report suggesting much more EU and closer federalisation ?
On the basis that leave win and move towards a points system by 2020 how many will rush to this Country in the next four years, 500,000 pa or more and how do we stop them
Do YOU think we should stop them?
Well as a leaver I think you should answer the question as it will be caused by leaving.
But you are a Tory supporter and member, and its the Tory government that gets to make the call on the 24th June or shortly thereafter and neither of the campaign groups.
I support stopping benefits for four years for all immigrants and for the UK government to move the system for everyone to only get out when put in. I do believe that unemployment at 5% diminishes the case against of 184,000 EU immigrants last year as they are needed to fuel our expanding economy. I do support David Cameron but accept his immigration promise was ill advised
@EdConwaySky: OECD warns (again) Brexit wld be bad news for the world economy, cuts UK GDP forecast to 1.7% from 2.2% https://t.co/rQjlfGOf7Z
Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No it's the four horsemen of the Apocalypse of course.
Remain haven't yet clocked that people see this vote in more than just monetary terms. And it still seems to be their only argument - I've not really seen a positive reason why we should stay in apart from the supposed risk of economic doom.
Yes and for me the doom mongering about house prices falling is good news. I have 3 kids who have not got a prayer of owning a house unless prices fall.
@PAW I have no idea who you are or why you think my personal life is remotely relevant. Perhaps you could confine yourself to the arguments? Or alternatively, perhaps you could give us a comprehensive rundown of your own life so the rest of us can painstakingly pick over it for imaginary hypocrisies.
It is about time you answered the question about how much competition British pension lawyers have for work from EU migrants.
The well-off, the retired (as long as they are not in southern Europe) and those who do not need to work are pretty much insulated from any downsides of Brexit. The elite will still be the elite. If things go wrong the ones to suffer will be regular punters. That's why we all have to hope that Leave's optimism turns out to be correct.
Very interesting article in the Telegraph today on the warnings being issued by Donald Tusk to the Commission about the desire to move away from ever closer union by various Countries and that the Commission just do not get it. The idea that a remain vote will entrench the EU does not seem to be valid according to this article and that Brexit has empowered a Europe wide revolt against the Commission, that is only going to increase no matter the result of the UK referendum
Would this be the same Tusk that earlier this year was one of the co signatories of the Five Presidents Report suggesting much more EU and closer federalisation ?
"Deep genuine economic and monetary union", "binding convergence criteria", "financial union", "fiscal union", "strengthening the EU institutions"...
that one ?
But opinions are changing rapidly throughout Europe as the fear of Brexit is acting like an earthquake through the Commission.. It is going to change or it will disintegrate - the rise of the right and the migration crisis will see to that
PS Your inability to accept my basic point that Britain's population has grown rapidly and you are arbitrarily calling a halt to that process right now on the basis of no evidence other than your own gut instinct doesn't really qualify you to decide who looks silly.
NO! Its not him, its the British public, the voters saying its enough, every year the number of people that say they want less or much less immigration increases, this isnt about numbers, or populations densities or developments in the construction industry, its about political reality. The political reality is that the man on the Clapham Omnibus doesn't care about cheap service employees for the well to do, and is rapidly approach the point where he has had enough.
On the basis that leave win and move towards a points system by 2020 how many will rush to this Country in the next four years, 500,000 pa or more and how do we stop them
Do YOU think we should stop them?
Well as a leaver I think you should answer the question as it will be caused by leaving.
But you are a Tory supporter and member, and its the Tory government that gets to make the call on the 24th June or shortly thereafter and neither of the campaign groups.
I support stopping benefits for four years for all immigrants and for the UK government to move the system for everyone to only get out when put in. I do believe that unemployment at 5% diminishes the case against of 184,000 EU immigrants last year as they are needed to fuel our expanding economy. I do support David Cameron but accept his immigration promise was ill advised
Why was it ill advised?
Tens of thousands was not achievable or wise in view of the strong economy
Go on, I'll give you the last word, get out the thesaurus and give it your best shot.
Good day.
Zyzzyva is the last word in most dictionaries - would score well at scrabble if they had more 'z's - it's a type of weevil - obviously named by a nerd.
@blackburn63 I've given a very clear answer. If your mind is too small to understand a radically changed world in 100 years' time, it's unsurprising that you're a fervent kipper.
You really are making the case so very well for Remainers being patronising arseholes...
So Mr Meeks and Roger, your holidays are more important than the little people's needs?
The "little people " are going to be right royally screwed if it turns out that the warnings about leaving the EU are correct. Just as they would have been screwed in Scotland if they had listened to the SNP and not the experts in 20I4 and voted for independence.
Tell me the "little people" in Spain and Italy and Greece haven't been royally screwed whilst in the EU?
The "little people" get screwed. They are getting-screwed fodder. But I would rather they were getting screwed by a national Govt. they can finally have enough of getting screwed by and boot out, rather than getting screwed by an EU Govt. they can not. I'm a patrician like that.
The little people of Spain, Greece and Italy are getting screwed because they voted for Governments that wanted to join and stay in the Euro. If they had been sensible, then like the UK they should have stayed out of the Euro or vote for a government that would take them out.
The democratic will of the "little people" of Greece and Italy got rolled by the EU - their votes were deemed an awkward road-block. So they drove over them...
Election votes do not undo international obligations agreed by previous governments.
Elected governments can resile from a treaty any time they feel like it, there will be political consequences to be sure, but that is just part of the judgement they have to make.
On the basis that leave win and move towards a points system by 2020 how many will rush to this Country in the next four years, 500,000 pa or more and how do we stop them
Do YOU think we should stop them?
Well as a leaver I think you should answer the question as it will be caused by leaving.
But you are a Tory supporter and member, and its the Tory government that gets to make the call on the 24th June or shortly thereafter and neither of the campaign groups.
I support stopping benefits for four years for all immigrants and for the UK government to move the system for everyone to only get out when put in. I do believe that unemployment at 5% diminishes the case against of 184,000 EU immigrants last year as they are needed to fuel our expanding economy. I do support David Cameron but accept his immigration promise was ill advised
Why was it ill advised?
Tens of thousands was not achievable or wise in view of the strong economy
OK so to clarify, it is unwise to limit immigration, thanks.
Ultimatly, the value of the currency will be set by the fundementals. The fundementals are not Leave/Remain but balance of payments deficit, current account deficit, interest rates, productivity, government credibility and so on. These fundementals will not change in the event of either outcome in the referendum.
I think there is little doubt that there will be single market access based upon EFTA or similar.
These 2 statements are contradictory.
If leave wins on a message of closed borders, then "single market access based upon EFTA" completely destroys "government credibility"
The official Leave campaign is not the government. When talking about credibility, I am specifically refering to the financial markets - the govenment has not met its fiscal targets and is not looking competent. Their rhetoric is not matched by their performance with regard to the deficit.
On the basis that leave win and move towards a points system by 2020 how many will rush to this Country in the next four years, 500,000 pa or more and how do we stop them
Do YOU think we should stop them?
Well as a leaver I think you should answer the question as it will be caused by leaving.
But you are a Tory supporter and member, and its the Tory government that gets to make the call on the 24th June or shortly thereafter and neither of the campaign groups.
I support stopping benefits for four years for all immigrants and for the UK government to move the system for everyone to only get out when put in. I do believe that unemployment at 5% diminishes the case against of 184,000 EU immigrants last year as they are needed to fuel our expanding economy. I do support David Cameron but accept his immigration promise was ill advised
So when he is instructed by the British people, not "Remain", not "Leave", the British people, to leave the EU, then what... ?
So Mr Meeks and Roger, your holidays are more important than the little people's needs?
The "little people " are going to be right royally screwed if it turns out that the warnings about leaving the EU are correct. Just as they would have been screwed in Scotland if they had listened to the SNP and not the experts in 20I4 and voted for independence.
Tell me the "little people" in Spain and Italy and Greece haven't been royally screwed whilst in the EU?
The "little people" get screwed. They are getting-screwed fodder. But I would rather they were getting screwed by a national Govt. they can finally have enough of getting screwed by and boot out, rather than getting screwed by an EU Govt. they can not. I'm a patrician like that.
The little people of Spain, Greece and Italy are getting screwed because they voted for Governments that wanted to join and stay in the Euro. If they had been sensible, then like the UK they should have stayed out of the Euro or vote for a government that would take them out.
The democratic will of the "little people" of Greece and Italy got rolled by the EU - their votes were deemed an awkward road-block. So they drove over them...
Election votes do not undo international obligations agreed by previous governments.
Elected governments can resile from a treaty any time they feel like it, there will be political consequences to be sure, but that is just part of the judgement they have to make.
Yes, of course. It's pretty much what happened in Greece and Italy.
BREAKING: #EU Court now ordering UK to increase VAT on green products including insulation materials and boiler controls from 5% to 20%.
"Last month, amendments to the Government’s Finance Bill to prevent the existing rate going up from 5% to 20% were strongly put forward to the Government. Minsters consequently agreed to allow their own legislation to be amended to give the Treasury the power to resist the EU VAT rules. In conclusion, the reduced rate continues to apply as before."
So Mr Meeks and Roger, your holidays are more important than the little people's needs?
The "little people " are going to be right royally screwed if it turns out that the warnings about leaving the EU are correct. Just as they would have been screwed in Scotland if they had listened to the SNP and not the experts in 20I4 and voted for independence.
Tell me the "little people" in Spain and Italy and Greece haven't been royally screwed whilst in the EU?
The "little people" get screwed. They are getting-screwed fodder. But I would rather they were getting screwed by a national Govt. they can finally have enough of getting screwed by and boot out, rather than getting screwed by an EU Govt. they can not. I'm a patrician like that.
The little people of Spain, Greece and Italy are getting screwed because they voted for Governments that wanted to join and stay in the Euro. If they had been sensible, then like the UK they should have stayed out of the Euro or vote for a government that would take them out.
The democratic will of the "little people" of Greece and Italy got rolled by the EU - their votes were deemed an awkward road-block. So they drove over them...
Election votes do not undo international obligations agreed by previous governments.
Nice to see the 'we are still a sovereign nation' argument skewered so effectively by a Remainer.
Anyway, aren't we attempting to do exactly that in this referendum?
'You are effectively arguing that right now, after millennia of population growth, we can conclude that we unprecedentedly have reached a point where Britain Is Full.
I'm quite happy to be on the side of those who think that there is nothing particularly unusual about the present day moment.'
Maybe if you occasionally came down from your ivory tower and experienced the real world you might not have such a cavalier attitude.
Very interesting article in the Telegraph today on the warnings being issued by Donald Tusk to the Commission about the desire to move away from ever closer union by various Countries and that the Commission just do not get it. The idea that a remain vote will entrench the EU does not seem to be valid according to this article and that Brexit has empowered a Europe wide revolt against the Commission, that is only going to increase no matter the result of the UK referendum
Would this be the same Tusk that earlier this year was one of the co signatories of the Five Presidents Report suggesting much more EU and closer federalisation ?
"Deep genuine economic and monetary union", "binding convergence criteria", "financial union", "fiscal union", "strengthening the EU institutions"...
that one ?
But opinions are changing rapidly throughout Europe as the fear of Brexit is acting like an earthquake through the Commission.. It is going to change or it will disintegrate - the rise of the right and the migration crisis will see to that
Do you have a reference, or any evidence for this other than the platitudes of Mr Tusk ?
So Mr Meeks and Roger, your holidays are more important than the little people's needs?
The "little people " are going to be right royally screwed if it turns out that the warnings about leaving the EU are correct. Just as they would have been screwed in Scotland if they had listened to the SNP and not the experts in 20I4 and voted for independence.
Tell me the "little people" in Spain and Italy and Greece haven't been royally screwed whilst in the EU?
The "little people" get screwed. They are getting-screwed fodder. But I would rather they were getting screwed by a national Govt. they can finally have enough of getting screwed by and boot out, rather than getting screwed by an EU Govt. they can not. I'm a patrician like that.
The little people of Spain, Greece and Italy are getting screwed because they voted for Governments that wanted to join and stay in the Euro. If they had been sensible, then like the UK they should have stayed out of the Euro or vote for a government that would take them out.
The democratic will of the "little people" of Greece and Italy got rolled by the EU - their votes were deemed an awkward road-block. So they drove over them...
Election votes do not undo international obligations agreed by previous governments.
Nice to see the 'we are still a sovereign nation' argument skewered so effectively by a Remainer.
Anyway, aren't we attempting to do exactly that in this referendum?
No. We are deciding whether we want to leave the EU. Under the international treaty we signed to join up it is perfectly acceptable to do that.
@blackburn63 Once again, it is futile speculating about numerical upper bounds on population capacity of the island of Britain because we cannot be in possession of all the relevant facts for determining what that upper bound might be.
PS Your inability to accept my basic point that Britain's population has grown rapidly and you are arbitrarily calling a halt to that process right now on the basis of no evidence other than your own gut instinct doesn't really qualify you to decide who looks silly.
Surely there's more than gut instinct - look at A&E waiting times, primary school places, traffic jams, overcrowded trains, even the spare capacity in the electricity system. There must be more examples.
I accept the point that we could in theory cope with this with more investment etc but in case you hadn't noticed the economy is not doing that well despite record low interest rates and the high employment figures mask a large amount of underemployment. Damian Green was on 5 live this morning trumpeting the fact that the NHS budget had been "protected" - but it needs much more than that, and it comes at the expense of cuts elsewhere anyway.
320K in a year represents ~ 0.5% population growth p.a. independent of increase due to birth rate increasing and falling death rate. I admit I do not know the net effect of this...may be about break even? But birth rate is rising. >0.5% is a lot...
Whatever the rights and wrongs, a lot of people with a vote do not agree with you, and frankly won't be persuaded by your breathtakingly smug and patronising dismissals.
@blackburn63 Once again, it is futile speculating about numerical upper bounds on population capacity of the island of Britain because we cannot be in possession of all the relevant facts for determining what that upper bound might be.
PS Your inability to accept my basic point that Britain's population has grown rapidly and you are arbitrarily calling a halt to that process right now on the basis of no evidence other than your own gut instinct doesn't really qualify you to decide who looks silly.
Surely there's more than gut instinct - look at A&E waiting times, primary school places, traffic jams, overcrowded trains, even the spare capacity in the electricity system. There must be more examples.
I accept the point that we could in theory cope with this with more investment etc but in case you hadn't noticed the economy is not doing that well despite record low interest rates and the high employment figures mask a large amount of underemployment. Damian Green was on 5 live this morning trumpeting the fact that the NHS budget had been "protected" - but it needs much more than that, and it comes at the expense of cuts elsewhere anyway.
320K in a year represents ~ 0.5% population growth p.a. independent of increase due to birth rate increasing and falling death rate. I admit I do not know the net effect of this...may be about break even? But birth rate is rising.
Whatever the rights and wrongs, a lot of people with a vote do not agree with you, and frankly won't be persuaded by your breathtakingly smug and patronising dismissals.
Yep, the deep cuts to public services that the Tory Leavers so enthusiastically supported have had a significant impact on public services.
So Mr Meeks and Roger, your holidays are more important than the little people's needs?
The "little people " are going to be right royally screwed if it turns out that the warnings about leaving the EU are correct. Just as they would have been screwed in Scotland if they had listened to the SNP and not the experts in 20I4 and voted for independence.
Tell me the "little people" in Spain and Italy and Greece haven't been royally screwed whilst in the EU?
The "little people" get screwed. They are getting-screwed fodder. But I would rather they were getting screwed by a national Govt. they can finally have enough of getting screwed by and boot out, rather than getting screwed by an EU Govt. they can not. I'm a patrician like that.
The little people of Spain, Greece and Italy are getting screwed because they voted for Governments that wanted to join and stay in the Euro. If they had been sensible, then like the UK they should have stayed out of the Euro or vote for a government that would take them out.
The democratic will of the "little people" of Greece and Italy got rolled by the EU - their votes were deemed an awkward road-block. So they drove over them...
Election votes do not undo international obligations agreed by previous governments.
Nice to see the 'we are still a sovereign nation' argument skewered so effectively by a Remainer.
Anyway, aren't we attempting to do exactly that in this referendum?
No. We are deciding whether we want to leave the EU. Under the international treaty we signed to join up it is perfectly acceptable to do that.
We could perfectly legally and properly repeal the European Communities Act (1972), the HRA and a few other key bits of legislation with a one clause bill through parliament, it would piss a lot of people off to be sure, but ultimately what are they going to do about it ? Spare us a lot of cutting off their nose to spite their face actions that won't actually happen.
So Mr Meeks and Roger, your holidays are more important than the little people's needs?
The "little people " are going to be right royally screwed if it turns out that the warnings about leaving the EU are correct. Just as they would have been screwed in Scotland if they had listened to the SNP and not the experts in 20I4 and voted for independence.
Tell me the "little people" in Spain and Italy and Greece haven't been royally screwed whilst in the EU?
The "little people" get screwed. They are getting-screwed fodder. But I would rather they were getting screwed by a national Govt. they can finally have enough of getting screwed by and boot out, rather than getting screwed by an EU Govt. they can not. I'm a patrician like that.
The little people of Spain, Greece and Italy are getting screwed because they voted for Governments that wanted to join and stay in the Euro. If they had been sensible, then like the UK they should have stayed out of the Euro or vote for a government that would take them out.
The democratic will of the "little people" of Greece and Italy got rolled by the EU - their votes were deemed an awkward road-block. So they drove over them...
Election votes do not undo international obligations agreed by previous governments.
Nice to see the 'we are still a sovereign nation' argument skewered so effectively by a Remainer.
Anyway, aren't we attempting to do exactly that in this referendum?
No. We are deciding whether we want to leave the EU. Under the international treaty we signed to join up it is perfectly acceptable to do that.
We could perfectly legally and properly repeal the European Communities Act (1972), the HRA and a few other key bits of legislation with a one clause bill through parliament, it would piss a lot of people off to be sure, but ultimately what are they going to do about it ? Spare us a lot of cutting off their nose to spite their face actions that won't actually happen.
So Mr Meeks and Roger, your holidays are more important than the little people's needs?
The "little people " are going to be right royally screwed if it turns out that the warnings about leaving the EU are correct. Just as they would have been screwed in Scotland if they had listened to the SNP and not the experts in 20I4 and voted for independence.
Tell me the "little people" in Spain and Italy and Greece haven't been royally screwed whilst in the EU?
The "little people" get screwed. They are getting-screwed fodder. But I would rather they were getting screwed by a national Govt. they can finally have enough of getting screwed by and boot out, rather than getting screwed by an EU Govt. they can not. I'm a patrician like that.
The little people of Spain, Greece and Italy are getting screwed because they voted for Governments that wanted to join and stay in the Euro. If they had been sensible, then like the UK they should have stayed out of the Euro or vote for a government that would take them out.
The democratic will of the "little people" of Greece and Italy got rolled by the EU - their votes were deemed an awkward road-block. So they drove over them...
Election votes do not undo international obligations agreed by previous governments.
Nice to see the 'we are still a sovereign nation' argument skewered so effectively by a Remainer.
Anyway, aren't we attempting to do exactly that in this referendum?
No. We are deciding whether we want to leave the EU. Under the international treaty we signed to join up it is perfectly acceptable to do that.
We could perfectly legally and properly repeal the European Communities Act (1972), the HRA and a few other key bits of legislation with a one clause bill through parliament, it would piss a lot of people off to be sure, but ultimately what are they going to do about it ? Spare us a lot of cutting off their nose to spite their face actions that won't actually happen.
Yes, indeed. We are sovereign.
But we won't. So we are not sovereign.
The Queen is the most powerful person in the country, she could refuse to sign into law any act of parliament she didn't like. Will she ? No. So she has no power.
I think that Remain will still scrape home, but if they do (or don't) a degree of humility on the part of the establishment bodies that advocate Remain, and European institutions would be in order.
If they were not endlessly trying to draw power away from national political institutions towards supranational bodies, and weren't so wedded to the mass migration of peoples, they would not be facing their current predicament.
@blackburn63 There are three dimensions and we don't use the third one anywhere near enough. If we used that one more, we wouldn't need to cover the country with more tarmac.
In 5000 BC the population of England was about 6,000. By 1801 the population of England was just under 8 million. in 2011 the population of England was just over 53 million. We have been coping with population growth for millennia and rapid population growth for two centuries. I don't think we've yet reached anything like our conceivable limit just yet.
Prevarication.
80m, 100m, 200m - when would you cry enough?
How many more schools, hospitals, roads etc do we need to build before you join the majority of the UK who see the rapid rise in population as a problem?
Cameron foresaw the problem, he promised to cut it to sustainable levels.
Your argument, such as it is, is lost.
Half the rise in population in the ONS forecast is down to endogenous growth, and of the half that is down to migration only half is down to EU migration. Leaving the EU with an absolute halt to EU migration still results in 75% or so of the projected 4 million population rise.
I'll ask you the same question:
Do you foresee a time when we'll need to man?age population numbers: if sowhen
I see that over the next fifteen years a lot of youthful migration will be required to support the aging population. Remember the ONS projection does not expand the Labour force, the population 18-65 being stable and the increase being the over 65s and over 75s in particular. If we do not have immigration we will have an expanding elderly population and a contracting working age population.
At that point the pyramidal age distribution will have a long term stability and so our population would stabilise. I think forecasts on population more than 20 years into the future are very speculative, as fertility rates are declining worldwide.
OK have another go:
Do you foresee a time when we'll need to manage population numbers: if so when?
It maybe that your answer is NO, of course.
The numbers will manage themselves, and the 75% of the change (minimum) is happening anyway. What governments have failed to do is support the infrastructure.
It is market forces (and applying to endogenous growth and non EU migration too) and management needs to be by market forces too. Changes to our welfare state to make benefits conditional on a track record of contributions etc.
@JonCisBack I don't come on pb to persuade. No one who comes on pb is persuadable.
Occasionally I throw a brick in the hall of mirrors that some posters love to live in. I don't expect to be thanked for that.
And so it turns out. Looking down thread, you can count for yourself the posters who decide to attack me rather than my argument or to complain about the terms I put my argument in rather than to deal with the argument itself. The number is not a small one (not that it bothers me in the slightest).
As it happens, my view is that the Leave vote is primarily driven by the austerity measures introduced since 2010. Much of that spending had a purpose. The lack of investment rather than the number of immigrants is what is driving the frustration.
So Mr Meeks and Roger, your holidays are more important than the little people's needs?
The "little people " are going to be right royally screwed if it turns out that the warnings about leaving the EU are correct. Just as they would have been screwed in Scotland if they had listened to the SNP and not the experts in 20I4 and voted for independence.
Tell me the "little people" in Spain and Italy and Greece haven't been royally screwed whilst in the EU?
The "little people" get screwed. They are getting-screwed fodder. But I would rather they were getting screwed by a national Govt. they can finally have enough of getting screwed by and boot out, rather than getting screwed by an EU Govt. they can not. I'm a patrician like that.
The little people of Spain, Greece and Italy are getting screwed because they voted for Governments that wanted to join and stay in the Euro. If they had been sensible, then like the UK they should have stayed out of the Euro or vote for a government that would take them out.
The democratic will of the "little people" of Greece and Italy got rolled by the EU - their votes were deemed an awkward road-block. So they drove over them...
Election votes do not undo international obligations agreed by previous governments.
Nice to see the 'we are still a sovereign nation' argument skewered so effectively by a Remainer.
Anyway, aren't we attempting to do exactly that in this referendum?
No. We are deciding whether we want to leave the EU. Under the international treaty we signed to join up it is perfectly acceptable to do that.
We could perfectly legally and properly repeal the European Communities Act (1972), the HRA and a few other key bits of legislation with a one clause bill through parliament, it would piss a lot of people off to be sure, but ultimately what are they going to do about it ? Spare us a lot of cutting off their nose to spite their face actions that won't actually happen.
Yes, indeed. We are sovereign.
But we won't. So we are not sovereign.
The Queen is the most powerful person in the country, she could refuse to sign into law any act of parliament she didn't like. Will she ? No. So she has no power.
So Mr Meeks and Roger, your holidays are more important than the little people's needs?
The "little people " are going to be right royally screwed if it turns out that the warnings about leaving the EU are correct. Just as they would have been screwed in Scotland if they had listened to the SNP and not the experts in 20I4 and voted for independence.
Tell me the "little people" in Spain and Italy and Greece haven't been royally screwed whilst in the EU?
The "little people" get screwed. They are getting-screwed fodder. But I would rather they were getting screwed by a national Govt. they can finally have enough of getting screwed by and boot out, rather than getting screwed by an EU Govt. they can not. I'm a patrician like that.
The would take them out.
The democratic will of the "little people" of Greece and Italy got rolled by the EU - their votes were deemed an awkward road-block. So they drove over them...
Election votes do not undo international obligations agreed by previous governments.
Nice to see the 'we are still a sovereign nation' argument skewered so effectively by a Remainer.
Anyway, aren't we attempting to do exactly that in this referendum?
No. We are deciding whether we want to leave the EU. Under the international treaty we signed to join up it is perfectly acceptable to do that.
We could perfectly legally and properly repeal the European Communities Act (1972), the HRA and a few other key bits of legislation with a one clause bill through parliament, it would piss a lot of people off to be sure, but ultimately what are they going to do about it ? Spare us a lot of cutting off their nose to spite their face actions that won't actually happen.
Yes, indeed. We are sovereign.
But we won't. So we are not sovereign.
The Queen is the most powerful person in the country, she could refuse to sign into law any act of parliament she didn't like. Will she ? No. So she has no power.
Power that you never use is not power.
Eh, if we don't do something we could do it means we are not able to do it? So our independent nuclear deterrent is entirely pointless unless we fire off the odd nuclear missile at someone every now and again?
'Very interesting article in the Telegraph today on the warnings being issued by Donald Tusk to the Commission about the desire to move away from ever closer union by various Countries and that the Commission just do not get it. The idea that a remain vote will entrench the EU does not seem to be valid according to this article and that Brexit has empowered a Europe wide revolt against the Commission, that is only going to increase no matter the result of the UK referendum'
That's just a game being played between Tusk & Junker for the media because the polls are close,this will all be quickly forgotten if Remain wins.
For the past 20 years we have heard UK politicians of all parties telling us that the EU must be reformed,but at the same time receiving more EU.
We have had a year of negotiations based on an IN/OUT referendum and ended up with peanuts.
You seriously believe Tusk & Junker are interested in reform ?
To be a credible deterrent people have to believe you might use it (which is why Scott as usual is talking out of his ar*e).
When your PM walks up to the renegotiations and announces to his counterparts that there is no way he could conceive of supporting the UK leaving the EU, and in fact he plans to use the referendum to "dock" the UK with the EU, how credible do you think his threats to leave were ? He had no power, and hence no result at that renegotiation because he had no credibility.
Mr. Zims, if only Tusk and Juncker had had a recent opportunity to actually put reform into action, perhaps through the renegotiation of one member's relationship with the EU.
Mark Wallace His response to the @Freedland article as "utterly disgusting subliminal nastiness" is appalling. Here's the piece https://t.co/BcnKxan3KP
Comments
48% of White Britons think that the UK is now less racist, with 46% of ethnic minorities agreeing https://t.co/oeJkJCrG7d #equality
This one has got to be odds on, methinks...
The little people of Spain, Greece and Italy are getting screwed because they voted for Governments that wanted to join and stay in the Euro. If they had been sensible, then like the UK they should have stayed out of the Euro or vote for a government that would take them out.
https://twitter.com/MirrorPolitics/status/737924504417148929
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2016/05/27/nicky-morgan-slams-boris-johnson-over-misguided-brexit-gay-rights-claims/
The same Ms Morgan that voted against the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Act 2013 ?
Surely some mistake ?
It's just my luck that I almost always meet Remainers, not Leavers, and they are really very rude about Leave and Leavers to boot.
Mr. Royale, I know he said that, I'm just saying people do get carried away.
You're like a Sikh meeting Ed Miliband every day
At that point the pyramidal age distribution will have a long term stability and so our population would stabilise. I think forecasts on population more than 20 years into the future are very speculative, as fertility rates are declining worldwide.
The clue was in "I'm a patrician like that"......
Your response was to make a spurious reference to 5000 BC.
You are very close, as usual, to resorting to insults, much to the amusement of posters such as vapid bilge. There is a special pleasure in seeing pompous people make fools of themselves.
The solution is clearly to entice single young polish girls who stay from 18 - 35 and then toddle back off to Warsaw without popping a sprog here somehow discourage that from happening !
Edit: @foxinsoxuk No, really won't the immigrants get old too o_O ?
'Will Straw: "Australia, who have a points-based immigration system, have twice as many migrants per head as the UK."
Are you a muppet or what? They could just as easily have half the level - they have control.'
Surprised but pleased that Remain has a useful idiot like this at the heart of their campaign.
http://www.grantuk.com/government-led-consultation-on-changes-to-reduced-vat-rates-for-energy-saving-materials/
The British people are not happy with the EU status quo. They do not want political or economic union. They do not want mass immigration. They do want to be able to go on holiday there, do business there, trade freely with it as an open accessible market and, occasionally, retire there to a nice place in the sun.
Cameron promised in 2014 to 'get what Britain needs', on both migration, human rights and laws. The fact he totally failed to do so, and the EU were completely obstinate in making any concessions whatsoever for the UK, is telling. Had a deal on practical limits on free movement been struck, with opt-outs on justice and home affairs secured, with a British veto on matters of national interest, this wouldn't even be close. We would stay.
However, he got nothing and he has added insult to injury by putting nothing on the table as an alternative at all. This, combined with domesday scenarios and predictions of apocalypse if we Leave, he is hoping will threaten and bully British swing voters into having no option but to vote Remain. And thus protect the status quo for a very long time to come.
It's outrageous. Both the EU and the UK Government have put British swing voters in a totally invidious position, and they're not happy about it. At all.
If (and it's a big if) this blows up in their faces it will be a damning verdict on the attempts of both the Government - and the intractability of the EU - to browbeat British voters into voting for something that they do not want, and which does not even begin to address their fundamental concerns.
Do you foresee a time when we'll need to manage population numbers: if so when?
It maybe that your answer is NO, of course.
This smells like another of those "we won't pay £1.7bn extra for black market sales and hookers..... oops, so we did" lines.
I'm quite happy to be on the side of those who think that there is nothing particularly unusual about the present day moment.
Read the article...
Do you foresee a time when we should manage population numbers and if so when?
PS, you're looking increasingly silly here.
Tusk's words are nice but I'll believe their sincerity when corresponding action occurs.
Be honest, do you or don't you?
The overwhelming evidence is they will never change. Judge people not by what they say, but what they do.
These are frequently the same people who voted Tory despite cuts et al. They weighed the whole picture.
I am quite prepared to accept that there is a theoretical upper bound. I very much doubt whether we need to manage population numbers more aggressively than we currently do because I expect that long before we have reached the upper bound for this island, world population will have peaked and other countries will prove more desirable destinations.
PS Your inability to accept my basic point that Britain's population has grown rapidly and you are arbitrarily calling a halt to that process right now on the basis of no evidence other than your own gut instinct doesn't really qualify you to decide who looks silly.
Rich Leavers don't care
WATCH: @iancollinsuk on blistering form as he took aim at the single mum of eight who gets £31,000 of benefits https://t.co/g98cJU4mZS
Good day.
https://ec.europa.eu/priorities/publications/five-presidents-report-completing-europes-economic-and-monetary-union_en
"Deep genuine economic and monetary union", "binding convergence criteria", "financial union", "fiscal union", "strengthening the EU institutions"...
that one ?
Wrong message to the wrong people.
The will of the British people on immigration should not and cannot be constrained to what you personally are 'prepared to accept'.
You do not and should not have a 'morality express' card to play here.
Democracy supersedes all. If voters want ten million net immigrants it should be ten million. If they want zero, it should be zero.
End of.
http://www.natcen.ac.uk/news-media/press-releases/2014/january/more-than-3-in-4-want-reduction-in-immigration/
Hey, they can serve me tapas when I go to my second home in Spain.
http://www.expressandstar.com/news/local-news/2016/06/01/eu-referendum-old-white-men-are-the-problem-for-the-remain-campaign-says-labours-shadow-europe-minister/
Will they spin it as Pat Glass was only joking.
Why the restrictions on non EU folk then?
Anyway, aren't we attempting to do exactly that in this referendum?
'You are effectively arguing that right now, after millennia of population growth, we can conclude that we unprecedentedly have reached a point where Britain Is Full.
I'm quite happy to be on the side of those who think that there is nothing particularly unusual about the present day moment.'
Maybe if you occasionally came down from your ivory tower and experienced the real world you might not have such a cavalier attitude.
I accept the point that we could in theory cope with this with more investment etc but in case you hadn't noticed the economy is not doing that well despite record low interest rates and the high employment figures mask a large amount of underemployment. Damian Green was on 5 live this morning trumpeting the fact that the NHS budget had been "protected" - but it needs much more than that, and it comes at the expense of cuts elsewhere anyway.
320K in a year represents ~ 0.5% population growth p.a. independent of increase due to birth rate increasing and falling death rate. I admit I do not know the net effect of this...may be about break even? But birth rate is rising. >0.5% is a lot...
Whatever the rights and wrongs, a lot of people with a vote do not agree with you, and frankly won't be persuaded by your breathtakingly smug and patronising dismissals.
The Queen is the most powerful person in the country, she could refuse to sign into law any act of parliament she didn't like. Will she ? No. So she has no power.
Power that you never use is not power.
If they were not endlessly trying to draw power away from national political institutions towards supranational bodies, and weren't so wedded to the mass migration of peoples, they would not be facing their current predicament.
It is market forces (and applying to endogenous growth and non EU migration too) and management needs to be by market forces too. Changes to our welfare state to make benefits conditional on a track record of contributions etc.
Occasionally I throw a brick in the hall of mirrors that some posters love to live in. I don't expect to be thanked for that.
And so it turns out. Looking down thread, you can count for yourself the posters who decide to attack me rather than my argument or to complain about the terms I put my argument in rather than to deal with the argument itself. The number is not a small one (not that it bothers me in the slightest).
As it happens, my view is that the Leave vote is primarily driven by the austerity measures introduced since 2010. Much of that spending had a purpose. The lack of investment rather than the number of immigrants is what is driving the frustration.
And Bollocks
Remain 41 (nc) Leave 41 (nc)
When DKs are squeezed Remain 44 Leave 43 https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/5410is51bi/TimesResults_160531_EURef&HousePrices_W.pdf
'Very interesting article in the Telegraph today on the warnings being issued by Donald Tusk to the Commission about the desire to move away from ever closer union by various Countries and that the Commission just do not get it. The idea that a remain vote will entrench the EU does not seem to be valid according to this article and that Brexit has empowered a Europe wide revolt against the Commission, that is only going to increase no matter the result of the UK referendum'
That's just a game being played between Tusk & Junker for the media because the polls are close,this will all be quickly forgotten if Remain wins.
For the past 20 years we have heard UK politicians of all parties telling us that the EU must be reformed,but at the same time receiving more EU.
We have had a year of negotiations based on an IN/OUT referendum and ended up with peanuts.
You seriously believe Tusk & Junker are interested in reform ?
When your PM walks up to the renegotiations and announces to his counterparts that there is no way he could conceive of supporting the UK leaving the EU, and in fact he plans to use the referendum to "dock" the UK with the EU, how credible do you think his threats to leave were ? He had no power, and hence no result at that renegotiation because he had no credibility.
Mark Wallace
His response to the @Freedland article as "utterly disgusting subliminal nastiness" is appalling. Here's the piece https://t.co/BcnKxan3KP