politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The EU can’t have its Turkey and eat it
politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The EU can’t have its Turkey and eat it
“Bridge Together”: Istanbul’s slogan for its unsuccessful 2020 Olympic bid captured well the country’s unifying potential, linking as it does not only Europe and Asia but also the secular west with the Islamic Middle East. A bridge, however, needs firm foundations and Turkey, rather than pulling two sides together, is more swayed by the forces pulling it in opposite directions.
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First - again!0
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Second like Leave!
A good article DH. Any Turkey that did join would have to be radically different in terms of democracy and human rights as well as economic progress. It is not going to happen quickly, but if Turkey did transform that way then it would be another feather in the EU's cap.0 -
Immigration remains one of the strongest cards Leave have to play but they played it poorly this week.
Incoming, Captain Herdson, incoming!0 -
The question isn't whether Turkey will be joining the EU, the question is whether Turkey will be able to parlez/bully a right of residence for it's citizens in the EU as part of a trade and/or refugee deal.
The more politicians bang on about how there is not going to be EU membership for Turkey within the next few decades, and the more they see the EU deals and the threatening from Erdogan, the more they suspect the Turks will be able to achieve most of the useful bits of EU membership without actually becoming members.0 -
Gobble Gobble ....0
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There are significant worries in Germany even about visa free travel. There are about 4m Kurds inside Turkey's borders who are neither welcome, nor well treated there, and most of whom do not meet the criteria for a Schengen visitors visa, such as history of full time employment, three years bank records in good standing, connections with the country of origin such that they would wish to return and so forth, and German journalists worry how many of these will use visa free travel to enter Germany and then claim asylum, since legal advice in Germany is that the treatment of the Kurds in Turkey falls within the current government's generous interpretation of persecution.0
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@Morris_Dancer
Only ARSE deniers think it's level-pegging and such squalid individuals should be consigned to ConHome for life along with advocates of STV and genocidal turnip eradicators.
Latest ARSE projection REMAIN +12.0 -
Sanders looks to be trying to crash the Democrats if he doesn't get the nomination, which he obviously won't. Pretty stunning stuff.0
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Interesting piece, Mr. Herdson, though the photograph is rather sad.0
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The Leave campaign has an awful set of advocates, but the Remain ones are hardly any better. On immigration, though, it doesn't matter. Voters are not listening to Boris or Dave, they are looking at the images and charts on the telly. The BBC, ITN and Sky did all the important work last week and will continue to do so. Leave have no answer whatsoever. Dave and George are being hoisted on their own petard. That contract with the British people, that pledge. Jesus Christ.0
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You mean Remain have no answer?SouthamObserver said:The Leave campaign has an awful set of advocates, but the Remain ones are hardly any better. On immigration, though, it doesn't matter. Voters are not listening to Boris or Dave, they are looking at the images and charts on the telly. The BBC, ITN and Sky did all the important work last week and will continue to do so. Leave have no answer whatsoever. Dave and George are being hoisted on their own petard. That contract with the British people, that pledge. Jesus Christ.
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It's not just talk. How much money is the UK giving to Turkey directly or indirectly through the EU to help the bid for membership that it actually appears to have no interest in pursuing. Reportedly we are going to be paying £2bn by 2020 to the next group of accession countries including the former Yugoslavia and Turkey, and also are on the hook for £640m for our share of the EU-Turkey deal. Still, I am sure the electorate will understand.OP said:
So what of Cameron’s apparent support? Out of line? Not necessarily. The Leave campaigners were keen to play up his comment from 2010 that “I want us to pave the road from Ankara to Brussels” but taken in isolation, the quote misses the context. Ankara was at the time reforming towards western values, scrapping anti-Kurdish legislation and abolishing the death penalty – and in his speech from which that quote is taken, he argued that Turkey needed to do more still.
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Are we not being selfish? If we leave and take sixty million 'Europeans' away from the club, the others may feel even more threatened by Turkey with its seventy million 'semi-Europeans' coming in.
We should be honourable and stay, thus giving deprived Turkey a better chance of access. Right, that's my Guardian hat taken off now.
The spectre of so many potential Islamists entering is a convenient threat for Leave. Whether likely or not is immaterial. It's the social equivalent of being £4,300 worse off in 2030. Both extremely unlikely but well worth a flourish.0 -
No, Mr Herdson, the net outcome this week was a narrow and ugly points win to Leave.
Despite the Leave leaderships sloppy leading, (blimey!).
Unfortunately the leadership is seen to be in Gove's and Boris' hands, which is proving inept and divisive. Farage is doing better on his own, but is being kept out of the media spotlight by, well, the media.
It's only the fact that people are getting fed up by being dictated by Brussels, and see direct democracy in many ways, are slipping from their hands, that Leave is doing as well as it is.
I recon on a 51.8% win for Remain at this moment in time.0 -
Agreed - a prosperous, secular democratic Turkey would be a great prize for the west - unfortunately it appears to be heading in the opposite direction under Erdogan....foxinsoxuk said:
A good article DH. Any Turkey that did join would have to be radically different in terms of democracy and human rights as well as economic progress. It is not going to happen quickly, but if Turkey did transform that way then it would be another feather in the EU's cap.0 -
One day after he used a teleprompter to deliver a policy speech, Donald Trump slammed politicians who use teleprompters. In the past, we have received a mixture of gratitude and pity over the fact that we track his evolving view of the device. We will gratefully accept both.
Here are Donald Trump's teleprompter positions over the past month, from April 27 through May 27:
—April 27: Pro. Uses a teleprompter while delivering a foreign policy speech.
—May 2: Con. "I don't have any teleprompters...I'm up here all by myself."
—May 20: Pro. "I've started to use [teleprompters] a little bit. They're not bad. You never get yourself in trouble when you use a teleprompter."
—May 22: Con. Attacks Clinton because she "reads off a teleprompter, you notice. She's reading off a teleprompter, she always does."
—May 24: Con. "We should have a law that when you run for president, you shouldn't be allowed to use a teleprompter."
—May 26: Pro. Uses a teleprompter while delivering an energy policy speech in North Dakota.
—May 27: Con. "Isn't it great when you don't use teleprompters? ...we oughta have a law that if you're running for president, you can't use teleprompters."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/paloma/the-daily-trail/2016/05/27/the-daily-trail-trump-to-sanders-sorry-i-don-t-debate-people-who-don-t-win/57489943981b92a22db38c78/0 -
Eh ..... that's my line.CarlottaVance said:First - again!
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55 non EEA countries have visa free access already to the Schengen zone, including the remaining balkan countries (except Kosovo) and almost all of Latin america including countries like Mexico, Brazil, Columbia and Venezuela. 90 day visitors visas do not mean right to reside or work. The EU proposals also include provisions for suspension if there are problems with overstayers abusing the system.Indigo said:There are significant worries in Germany even about visa free travel. There are about 4m Kurds inside Turkey's borders who are neither welcome, nor well treated there, and most of whom do not meet the criteria for a Schengen visitors visa, such as history of full time employment, three years bank records in good standing, connections with the country of origin such that they would wish to return and so forth, and German journalists worry how many of these will use visa free travel to enter Germany and then claim asylum, since legal advice in Germany is that the treatment of the Kurds in Turkey falls within the current government's generous interpretation of persecution.
I agree that Turkish treatment of minorities, including the Kurds, is an insurmountable barrier to Turkish membership.0 -
Hmmm. The Washington Post, who hasn't had a good word to say for Trump, since he started his campaign.Alistair said:One day after he used a teleprompter to deliver a policy speech, Donald Trump slammed politicians who use teleprompters. In the past, we have received a mixture of gratitude and pity over the fact that we track his evolving view of the device. We will gratefully accept both.
Here are Donald Trump's teleprompter positions over the past month, from April 27 through May 27:
—April 27: Pro. Uses a teleprompter while delivering a foreign policy speech.
—May 2: Con. "I don't have any teleprompters...I'm up here all by myself."
—May 20: Pro. "I've started to use [teleprompters] a little bit. They're not bad. You never get yourself in trouble when you use a teleprompter."
—May 22: Con. Attacks Clinton because she "reads off a teleprompter, you notice. She's reading off a teleprompter, she always does."
—May 24: Con. "We should have a law that when you run for president, you shouldn't be allowed to use a teleprompter."
—May 26: Pro. Uses a teleprompter while delivering an energy policy speech in North Dakota.
—May 27: Con. "Isn't it great when you don't use teleprompters? ...we oughta have a law that if you're running for president, you can't use teleprompters."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/paloma/the-daily-trail/2016/05/27/the-daily-trail-trump-to-sanders-sorry-i-don-t-debate-people-who-don-t-win/57489943981b92a22db38c78/0 -
Sorry David, I disagree. This isn't about a technical membership of joining the EU - it's about a de facto membership which is what we appear to be creeping towards.
Visa free travel, dangeld to hold back a tsunami of immigrants from all over the place, Merkel bending over when Turkey wants a journalist prosecuted for being rude et al.
Should we believe our lying eyes, or politicians using lawyer language? It's like the veto argument. A veto is only a veto when you're willing to use it. The EU has a load of form here too of pretending something isn't happening - then suddenly it's all too late.
The level of trust is important - and there's very little of it about when it comes to Cameron and immigration. That Leave is leveraging this - using his own words from just two years ago - is perfectly fair game. Remain are on the ropes re immigration. How we're supposed to have had a bad week over it isn't what I saw.0 -
Fire the sub editor..0
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Yep. That's annoying.Wanderer said:
You mean Remain have no answer?SouthamObserver said:The Leave campaign has an awful set of advocates, but the Remain ones are hardly any better. On immigration, though, it doesn't matter. Voters are not listening to Boris or Dave, they are looking at the images and charts on the telly. The BBC, ITN and Sky did all the important work last week and will continue to do so. Leave have no answer whatsoever. Dave and George are being hoisted on their own petard. That contract with the British people, that pledge. Jesus Christ.
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Quite. Given how creative migrants can be when it comes to getting into the EU, I'd expect many will do so.Indigo said:There are significant worries in Germany even about visa free travel. There are about 4m Kurds inside Turkey's borders who are neither welcome, nor well treated there, and most of whom do not meet the criteria for a Schengen visitors visa, such as history of full time employment, three years bank records in good standing, connections with the country of origin such that they would wish to return and so forth, and German journalists worry how many of these will use visa free travel to enter Germany and then claim asylum, since legal advice in Germany is that the treatment of the Kurds in Turkey falls within the current government's generous interpretation of persecution.
We're already seeing mass baptisms of Muslims in Germany - it's much easier to claim religious persecution status than pretending to be gay.
"There has been some suspicion as to the true motive behind those seeking asylum's conversions to Christianity.
Germany immigration authorities give priority to Christian refugees, as they would face prosecution and even death if they returned to their native countries. In both Iran and Afghanistan, apostates face the death penalty." http://www.christiantoday.com/article/germany.mass.baptism.of.80.muslim.refugees.converting.to.christianity/85737.htm0 -
Mike does the photos but I think it's well chosen: Hagia Sophia captures the complexity of the history and present of Constantinople / Istanbul and the country beyond.Morris_Dancer said:Interesting piece, Mr. Herdson, though the photograph is rather sad.
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A relatively poor article by David's high standards.
Leave got immigration onto the agenda in an non-racist way via Turkish accession. A comment below has been the first I've heard anyone mention the financial implications for the UK of Turkish accession. It also helps to have a part Turkish spokesman and also dovetails neatly with the refugee crisis.
The absolute shellacking Cameron got over immigration has permanently destroyed his credibility. He has been shown up to be a barefaced liar. Not Leave's doing, but they were lucky for once.0 -
So are you saying they are lying?MikeK said:
Hmmm. The Washington Post, who hasn't had a good word to say for Trump, since he started his campaign.Alistair said:One day after he used a teleprompter to deliver a policy speech, Donald Trump slammed politicians who use teleprompters. In the past, we have received a mixture of gratitude and pity over the fact that we track his evolving view of the device. We will gratefully accept both.
Here are Donald Trump's teleprompter positions over the past month, from April 27 through May 27:
—April 27: Pro. Uses a teleprompter while delivering a foreign policy speech.
—May 2: Con. "I don't have any teleprompters...I'm up here all by myself."
—May 20: Pro. "I've started to use [teleprompters] a little bit. They're not bad. You never get yourself in trouble when you use a teleprompter."
—May 22: Con. Attacks Clinton because she "reads off a teleprompter, you notice. She's reading off a teleprompter, she always does."
—May 24: Con. "We should have a law that when you run for president, you shouldn't be allowed to use a teleprompter."
—May 26: Pro. Uses a teleprompter while delivering an energy policy speech in North Dakota.
—May 27: Con. "Isn't it great when you don't use teleprompters? ...we oughta have a law that if you're running for president, you can't use teleprompters."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/paloma/the-daily-trail/2016/05/27/the-daily-trail-trump-to-sanders-sorry-i-don-t-debate-people-who-don-t-win/57489943981b92a22db38c78/0 -
How could Turkey get in?
Jezza does the decent thing and steps down. McDonnell takes over, is elected, and pushes in Europe for a more diverse membership to rub the Fascist's nose in it. Fear of right wing populism and nationalism make Cyprus and Greece (who can go either way) pariahs. Veto removed in favour of QMV.
When Venezuela's application is turned down, Turkey is the alternative and join in 2021.0 -
We gave £50 million to Ford to remove factories in the Midlands and build them in Turkey. That goes down well with the Leave contingent (The Remain contingent just cover up their ears and go 'La La La' (c) The Sun 2016)Indigo said:
It's not just talk. How much money is the UK giving to Turkey directly or indirectly through the EU to help the bid for membership that it actually appears to have no interest in pursuing. Reportedly we are going to be paying £2bn by 2020 to the next group of accession countries including the former Yugoslavia and Turkey, and also are on the hook for £640m for our share of the EU-Turkey deal. Still, I am sure the electorate will understand.OP said:
So what of Cameron’s apparent support? Out of line? Not necessarily. The Leave campaigners were keen to play up his comment from 2010 that “I want us to pave the road from Ankara to Brussels” but taken in isolation, the quote misses the context. Ankara was at the time reforming towards western values, scrapping anti-Kurdish legislation and abolishing the death penalty – and in his speech from which that quote is taken, he argued that Turkey needed to do more still.
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Mr. Herdson, it's a very good photo, but I still think it's sad. Turkey without Istanbul would still be Turkey, but the downfall of Constantinople/Byzantium extinguished that civilisation forever.
It also makes me think of how Mecca might look if the grandest mosques were made into cathedrals.
Edited extra bit: or if Rome's cathedrals were made mosques.
As an aside, is there a cathedral equivalent term for especially large mosques?0 -
I don't think there is a lot of dislike of Turks per se in Britain - there's probably more generally unfair wariness about Romanians - but there's of course a widespread feeling that current levels of immigration are either too much or just about the limit, and having a big new country with free access is seen as too much, man.
But David's right that the perception in ruling circles is that Turkey needs to be kept in the Western orbit at almost all costs. If Turkey had a special deal allowing them to join with very slow shift to free movement (over 20 years, say) could possibly be sold to European electorates. Otherwise, it's probably a serious flashpoint down the line with either an explicitly Islamist shift or a Russian-Turkish confrontation.
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Farage like Boris/Hannan are on the campaign trail doing live events day after day. That's why they're mostly not on the TV. TBH, whilst it's not as sexy as appearing on the telly, I'm happy with a robust groundwar.MikeK said:No, Mr Herdson, the net outcome this week was a narrow and ugly points win to Leave.
Despite the Leave leaderships sloppy leading, (blimey!).
Unfortunately the leadership is seen to be in Gove's and Boris' hands, which is proving inept and divisive. Farage is doing better on his own, but is being kept out of the media spotlight by, well, the media.
It's only the fact that people are getting fed up by being dictated by Brussels, and see direct democracy in many ways, are slipping from their hands, that Leave is doing as well as it is.
I recon on a 51.8% win for Remain at this moment in time.
In the past, Farage has been roundly rubbished for being an air-war guy, well not this time. IDS is taking on the media mantle and so far, I've been really impressed. He's taking absolutely so nonsense from the interviewers.0 -
Visa free travel for Turks inside Schengen is the equivalent of visa free travel in the UK for EU citizens post-Brexit. If the former is a disaster, according to Leavers, surely the latter is too. Ergo, visas to travel in Europe post-Brexit. That will be fun and in no way economically damaging. Or, perhaps, visa free travel for Turks is being ever-so-slightly overegged as a problem.0
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I think the electorate will understand the money for the migrants / refugees. Preparations for membership is a different matter, I'd grant you.Indigo said:
It's not just talk. How much money is the UK giving to Turkey directly or indirectly through the EU to help the bid for membership that it actually appears to have no interest in pursuing. Reportedly we are going to be paying £2bn by 2020 to the next group of accession countries including the former Yugoslavia and Turkey, and also are on the hook for £640m for our share of the EU-Turkey deal. Still, I am sure the electorate will understand.OP said:
So what of Cameron’s apparent support? Out of line? Not necessarily. The Leave campaigners were keen to play up his comment from 2010 that “I want us to pave the road from Ankara to Brussels” but taken in isolation, the quote misses the context. Ankara was at the time reforming towards western values, scrapping anti-Kurdish legislation and abolishing the death penalty – and in his speech from which that quote is taken, he argued that Turkey needed to do more still.0 -
Has Cameron come out from under the duvet to face the media yet?VapidBilge said:A relatively poor article by David's high standards.
Leave got immigration onto the agenda in an non-racist way via Turkish accession. A comment below has been the first I've heard anyone mention the financial implications for the UK of Turkish accession. It also helps to have a part Turkish spokesman and also dovetails neatly with the refugee crisis.
The absolute shellacking Cameron got over immigration has permanently destroyed his credibility. He has been shown up to be a barefaced liar. Not Leave's doing, but they were lucky for once.
As for who "won" the week, we'll only find that out when the next batch of polls are released?0 -
It was clear Cameron was lying about immigration well before this referendum. But a lot of posters on here - and many prominent members of the Leave campaign - were very happy to overlook it.VapidBilge said:A relatively poor article by David's high standards.
Leave got immigration onto the agenda in an non-racist way via Turkish accession. A comment below has been the first I've heard anyone mention the financial implications for the UK of Turkish accession. It also helps to have a part Turkish spokesman and also dovetails neatly with the refugee crisis.
The absolute shellacking Cameron got over immigration has permanently destroyed his credibility. He has been shown up to be a barefaced liar. Not Leave's doing, but they were lucky for once.
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On the week, I agree that Leave edged it, simply by raising the issue, which will make people uncomfortable. The reason why I've called it for Remain - just - is because I think the effect of having raised it fairly ineptly will be that they'll find it harder to revisit, meaning that Leave's best card has lost some of its potency.MikeK said:No, Mr Herdson, the net outcome this week was a narrow and ugly points win to Leave.
Despite the Leave leaderships sloppy leading, (blimey!).
Unfortunately the leadership is seen to be in Gove's and Boris' hands, which is proving inept and divisive. Farage is doing better on his own, but is being kept out of the media spotlight by, well, the media.
It's only the fact that people are getting fed up by being dictated by Brussels, and see direct democracy in many ways, are slipping from their hands, that Leave is doing as well as it is.
I recon on a 51.8% win for Remain at this moment in time.0 -
What a dumb comment.SouthamObserver said:Visa free travel for Turks inside Schengen is the equivalent of visa free travel in the UK for EU citizens post-Brexit. If the former is a disaster, according to Leavers, surely the latter is too. Ergo, visas to travel in Europe post-Brexit. That will be fun and in no way economically damaging. Or, perhaps, visa free travel for Turks is being ever-so-slightly overegged as a problem.
With visa free travel, the many genuinely persecuted Kurds, political dissidents and Syrian refugees could come here and get asylum.
They can't all stay in Yvette Cooper's house.0 -
Turkey is a popular holiday destination, and there are lots of Turkish restaurants springing up round here (in the sense it says Turkish on the sign, rather than actually being Turkish-owned or run). Regardless of the very real problems that country has, I'm not convinced it will be universally seen as a great threat.0
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No, the visa free travel proposal is only to the Schengen area, not to UK or Ireland.VapidBilge said:
What a dumb comment.SouthamObserver said:Visa free travel for Turks inside Schengen is the equivalent of visa free travel in the UK for EU citizens post-Brexit. If the former is a disaster, according to Leavers, surely the latter is too. Ergo, visas to travel in Europe post-Brexit. That will be fun and in no way economically damaging. Or, perhaps, visa free travel for Turks is being ever-so-slightly overegged as a problem.
With visa free travel, the many genuinely persecuted Kurds, political dissidents and Syrian refugees could come here and get asylum.
They can't all stay in Yvette Cooper's house.
Vapid bilge indeed...0 -
They can do that anyway.VapidBilge said:
What a dumb comment.SouthamObserver said:Visa free travel for Turks inside Schengen is the equivalent of visa free travel in the UK for EU citizens post-Brexit. If the former is a disaster, according to Leavers, surely the latter is too. Ergo, visas to travel in Europe post-Brexit. That will be fun and in no way economically damaging. Or, perhaps, visa free travel for Turks is being ever-so-slightly overegged as a problem.
With visa free travel, the many genuinely persecuted Kurds, political dissidents and Syrian refugees could come here and get asylum.
They can't all stay in Yvette Cooper's house.
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I have a question David. If we have a veto, why is there any need to talk about what might happen in Europe?0
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By the time Turkey is ready to join the EU, the free movement of people will most likely have been abandoned or at least modified, or the EU probably won't exist.NickPalmer said:I don't think there is a lot of dislike of Turks per se in Britain - there's probably more generally unfair wariness about Romanians - but there's of course a widespread feeling that current levels of immigration are either too much or just about the limit, and having a big new country with free access is seen as too much, man.
But David's right that the perception in ruling circles is that Turkey needs to be kept in the Western orbit at almost all costs. If Turkey had a special deal allowing them to join with very slow shift to free movement (over 20 years, say) could possibly be sold to European electorates. Otherwise, it's probably a serious flashpoint down the line with either an explicitly Islamist shift or a Russian-Turkish confrontation.0 -
UKIP got a lot of press when they were doing well in opinion polls and elections. Last Thursday they dropped percentage points in all three by elections, and lost a seat to Labour. They're just not flavour of the month anymore, which is why the press are ignoring Farage.MikeK said:No, Mr Herdson, the net outcome this week was a narrow and ugly points win to Leave.
Despite the Leave leaderships sloppy leading, (blimey!).
Unfortunately the leadership is seen to be in Gove's and Boris' hands, which is proving inept and divisive. Farage is doing better on his own, but is being kept out of the media spotlight by, well, the media.
It's only the fact that people are getting fed up by being dictated by Brussels, and see direct democracy in many ways, are slipping from their hands, that Leave is doing as well as it is.
I recon on a 51.8% win for Remain at this moment in time.0 -
Are they creeping towards it? The deal struck earlier is floundering with both sides accusing the other of not implementing what they said they would.Plato_Says said:Sorry David, I disagree. This isn't about a technical membership of joining the EU - it's about a de facto membership which is what we appear to be creeping towards.
Visa free travel, dangeld to hold back a tsunami of immigrants from all over the place, Merkel bending over when Turkey wants a journalist prosecuted for being rude et al.
Should we believe our lying eyes, or politicians using lawyer language? It's like the veto argument. A veto is only a veto when you're willing to use it. The EU has a load of form here too of pretending something isn't happening - then suddenly it's all too late.
The level of trust is important - and there's very little of it about when it comes to Cameron and immigration. That Leave is leveraging this - using his own words from just two years ago - is perfectly fair game. Remain are on the ropes re immigration. How we're supposed to have had a bad week over it isn't what I saw.
Visa-free travel is not a right of residency nor a right to work. The issue mentioned down-thread about the potential for Kurds to move en mass to Germany is a valid one and one that will apply domestic pressure within Germany's largest country on Merkel or her successor.
I stand by what I said - which to some extent your comment backs up. Leave should have monstered last week on immigration but because they played the wrong aspect of it at the wrong time, they failed to capitalise on the immigration figures (which they must have known were being published when they were) because they were arguing a bad case about Turkey. Consequently, they not only missed out on making much capital from that but also reduced the impact of playing the same card again later.0 -
One for Spurs fans
Breaking news....
Tottenham to play at Wembley in Champions League next season
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/36404799
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I still can't get over May saying Sharia Law is a good thing. Whatever nuance she put on it - the overwhelming majority of the population see it as an anti-women parallel legal system.GIN1138 said:
Has Cameron come out from under the duvet to face the media yet?VapidBilge said:A relatively poor article by David's high standards.
Leave got immigration onto the agenda in an non-racist way via Turkish accession. A comment below has been the first I've heard anyone mention the financial implications for the UK of Turkish accession. It also helps to have a part Turkish spokesman and also dovetails neatly with the refugee crisis.
The absolute shellacking Cameron got over immigration has permanently destroyed his credibility. He has been shown up to be a barefaced liar. Not Leave's doing, but they were lucky for once.
As for who "won" the week, we'll only find that out when the next batch of polls are released?
Handwaving about Jewish courts is immaterial - it's Sharia that has the PR problem.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/26/may-hails-benefits-of-sharia-as-inquiry-set-up-into-misuse-of-is/0 -
Tres bien. First.....Encore! it is then..... ;-ppeter_from_putney said:
Eh ..... that's my line.CarlottaVance said:First - again!
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Probably not a bad thing for Leave. Alternatively the press have learned from their mistakes in the last elections from attacking UK as the 'anti establishment party'. (UKIP polling hasn't tanked has it?)logical_song said:
UKIP got a lot of press when they were doing well in opinion polls and elections. Last Thursday they dropped percentage points in all three by elections, and lost a seat to Labour. They're just not flavour of the month anymore, which is why the press are ignoring Farage.MikeK said:No, Mr Herdson, the net outcome this week was a narrow and ugly points win to Leave.
Despite the Leave leaderships sloppy leading, (blimey!).
Unfortunately the leadership is seen to be in Gove's and Boris' hands, which is proving inept and divisive. Farage is doing better on his own, but is being kept out of the media spotlight by, well, the media.
It's only the fact that people are getting fed up by being dictated by Brussels, and see direct democracy in many ways, are slipping from their hands, that Leave is doing as well as it is.
I recon on a 51.8% win for Remain at this moment in time.0 -
Mr Observer,
"No ifs. No buts. That's a promise we made to the British people."
As he was a Europhile through and through, and within the EU that promise was clearly impossible, he not only lied but assumed the electorate were stupid/gullible. He's gambling on the same with the referendum, but his former supporters won't naturally assume he's right this time. Jezza has the same level of unthinking support within his own fans.
You can lie openly to your political friends, but your enemies will see the lie.
That doesn't matter if your political friends are in the majority. Cameron has cashed in his chips now but he's leaving anyway. Retiring to spend more time with his money.
I rate him highly as a politician but I don't have to like him.
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Well, it is a lot easier to get here from France than Turkey. They claim asylum in the Schengen area and then come here like so many others. Or perhaps the next generation will come like Somalis from the Netherlands.foxinsoxuk said:
No, the visa free travel proposal is only to the Schengen area, not to UK or Ireland.VapidBilge said:
What a dumb comment.SouthamObserver said:Visa free travel for Turks inside Schengen is the equivalent of visa free travel in the UK for EU citizens post-Brexit. If the former is a disaster, according to Leavers, surely the latter is too. Ergo, visas to travel in Europe post-Brexit. That will be fun and in no way economically damaging. Or, perhaps, visa free travel for Turks is being ever-so-slightly overegged as a problem.
With visa free travel, the many genuinely persecuted Kurds, political dissidents and Syrian refugees could come here and get asylum.
They can't all stay in Yvette Cooper's house.
Vapid bilge indeed...0 -
Indeed. If visa free travel for Turkish citizens inside Schengen is a potential disaster, then so is visa free travel in the UK for EU citizens post-Brexit. That means visas for us to go to Europe too. Or that Leave is talking total nonsense.foxinsoxuk said:
No, the visa free travel proposal is only to the Schengen area, not to UK or Ireland.VapidBilge said:
What a dumb comment.SouthamObserver said:Visa free travel for Turks inside Schengen is the equivalent of visa free travel in the UK for EU citizens post-Brexit. If the former is a disaster, according to Leavers, surely the latter is too. Ergo, visas to travel in Europe post-Brexit. That will be fun and in no way economically damaging. Or, perhaps, visa free travel for Turks is being ever-so-slightly overegged as a problem.
With visa free travel, the many genuinely persecuted Kurds, political dissidents and Syrian refugees could come here and get asylum.
They can't all stay in Yvette Cooper's house.
Vapid bilge indeed...
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Hagia Sophia these days is now a museum, so neither church nor mosque.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Herdson, it's a very good photo, but I still think it's sad. Turkey without Istanbul would still be Turkey, but the downfall of Constantinople/Byzantium extinguished that civilisation forever.
It also makes me think of how Mecca might look if the grandest mosques were made into cathedrals.
Edited extra bit: or if Rome's cathedrals were made mosques.
As an aside, is there a cathedral equivalent term for especially large mosques?
In historic terms, I agree that there's a wistful echo of past glory.
(As an aside, I'd argue that it was actually the fall of Trebizond in 1461 that extinguished the last light of Rome, though that was putting out the embers as against the shock of the fall of Constantinople eight years earlier).0 -
The advantage of Turkey is that for the first time Leave have got the future track of the EU onto the agenda. It is both EU and UK policy to bring Turkey into the EU and the majority think that is a stupid idea. It is the first crack in the dam which says Remain is the status quo risk free option. Leave will need more of these if it is going to win.0
-
It's worth noting that Italy has had over 10k migrants arriving/delivered to their shores this week alone. That's 47k YTD.
Along with the violent fuel protests in France, bulldozing Greek refugee camps and pix of overloaded boats crossing the Med - the EU looks like a complete out of control mess.
Photo-ops of smooth suits at the G7 contrasts so strongly - it looks like fiddling with canapes whilst Rome burns.0 -
Just like before 1973, right?SouthamObserver said:That means visas for us to go to Europe too.
0 -
Turkey is highlighted because of it's religion. A lot of UK 'Turks' are actually Kurds or Cypriots.
Cyprus is being presented as an obstacle to entry, but it could easily be turned into an accession bargaining chip by Erdogan or whoever, just as asylum seekers have been.
It also should not be forgotten that Albania, Montenegro, Serbia and Macedonia - 13m or so people - are in the queue to join while existing EU members continue to arrive at a rate of nearly 200,000 a year.
I don't think for a second that the public care much for the nuance of the debate.
They know large numbers of people are coming. They are fed a daily diet of stories about services under pressure, houses being unaffordable and incomes stagnating.
Why heap more people on top of that?
0 -
Ohhh..for the many many times I have heard that term "is only" used since first entering the EU 40 odd years ago. The first time I recollect was when they the politicians explained that it "is only" an economic arrangement so we don't have to fill in all the paperwork and makes trade quicker, cheaper and easier.......or words to that effect.foxinsoxuk said:
No, the visa free travel proposal is only to the Schengen area, not to UK or Ireland.VapidBilge said:
What a dumb comment.SouthamObserver said:Visa free travel for Turks inside Schengen is the equivalent of visa free travel in the UK for EU citizens post-Brexit. If the former is a disaster, according to Leavers, surely the latter is too. Ergo, visas to travel in Europe post-Brexit. That will be fun and in no way economically damaging. Or, perhaps, visa free travel for Turks is being ever-so-slightly overegged as a problem.
With visa free travel, the many genuinely persecuted Kurds, political dissidents and Syrian refugees could come here and get asylum.
They can't all stay in Yvette Cooper's house.
Vapid bilge indeed...
Now it has a political parliament, we are subservient to its laws, QMV, a soon to be European Army, a soon to be central tax system and three presidents none of which are democratically elected.
It's like the paperless office we were always promised.0 -
0
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To be honest, Nick, I don't think it could be sold. Not at the moment anyway. Look at the figures I've quoted:NickPalmer said:I don't think there is a lot of dislike of Turks per se in Britain - there's probably more generally unfair wariness about Romanians - but there's of course a widespread feeling that current levels of immigration are either too much or just about the limit, and having a big new country with free access is seen as too much, man.
But David's right that the perception in ruling circles is that Turkey needs to be kept in the Western orbit at almost all costs. If Turkey had a special deal allowing them to join with very slow shift to free movement (over 20 years, say) could possibly be sold to European electorates. Otherwise, it's probably a serious flashpoint down the line with either an explicitly Islamist shift or a Russian-Turkish confrontation.
- Le Pen could well win the first round next year and *leads* in the second round against Hollande (not that she'll face Hollande but it shows how many people are willing to vote FN in the right circumstances)
- Wilders may well be the next PM of Hollande and his party is polling at levels no party has achieved in a Dutch election in over 100 years.
- Austria came within a hair's breadth of electing a fascist president.
- In Germany, a party in the mould of Wilders' has risen to third place and is within striking distance of second.
Further movement towards Turkish membership will simply reinforce those trends, even if scheduled over a long time.
But - as you rightly say - were Turkey to become overtly Islamic, it would be a disaster for Europe (it won't go over to Russia, no matter what). How to reconcile the geopolitical necessity with electoral pressures? I'm not sure. It really relies on secular forces in Turkey itself stepping up to the plate.0 -
And you seriously believe that leaving the EU means that we will be shielded from what happens elsewhere in Europe?Plato_Says said:It's worth noting that Italy has had over 10k migrants arriving/delivered to their shores this week alone. That's 47k YTD.
Along with the violent fuel protests in France, bulldozing Greek refugee camps and pix of overloaded boats crossing the Med - the EU looks like a complete out of control mess.
Photo-ops of smooth suits at the G7 contrasts so strongly - it looks like fiddling with canapes whilst Rome burns.
0 -
The helpful leak of the EU Army proposals was another fillip. There's a fistful of Junker quotes saying it's essential, and when combined with eyes-only secrecy - it looks really suspicious.DavidL said:The advantage of Turkey is that for the first time Leave have got the future track of the EU onto the agenda. It is both EU and UK policy to bring Turkey into the EU and the majority think that is a stupid idea. It is the first crack in the dam which says Remain is the status quo risk free option. Leave will need more of these if it is going to win.
I've yet to see a single comment elsewhere suggesting anything other than a stupid, dangerous and sinister idea.0 -
Turkey only gets into the EU if the British government, elected by the British people, says so.chestnut said:Turkey is highlighted because of it's religion. A lot of UK 'Turks' are actually Kurds or Cypriots.
Cyprus is being presented as an obstacle to entry, but it could easily be turned into an accession bargaining chip by Erdogan or whoever, just as asylum seekers have been.
It also should not be forgotten that Albania, Montenegro, Serbia and Macedonia - 13m or so people - are in the queue to join while existing EU members continue to arrive at a rate of nearly 200,000 a year.
I don't think for a second that the public care much for the nuance of the debate.
They know large numbers of people are coming. They are fed a daily diet of stories about services under pressure, houses being unaffordable and incomes stagnating.
Why heap more people on top of that?
0 -
It also highlights how powerless people are.DavidL said:The advantage of Turkey is that for the first time Leave have got the future track of the EU onto the agenda. It is both EU and UK policy to bring Turkey into the EU and the majority think that is a stupid idea. It is the first crack in the dam which says Remain is the status quo risk free option. Leave will need more of these if it is going to win.
Merkel says, "let them all come" and chaos ensues. Schengen falls into disarray and the EU ends up paying protection money to Turkey.
The UK paid £500m, I believe.
I see the Greeks have been given another bailout. Are we on the hook there as well? £1.7bn last time, wasn't it?
0 -
And Cameron is in favour.SouthamObserver said:Turkey only gets into the EU if the British government, elected by the British people, says so.
As would Corbyn be.
The public are not.
0 -
And how would that change if we were outside the EU?VapidBilge said:
Well, it is a lot easier to get here from France than Turkey. They claim asylum in the Schengen area and then come here like so many others. Or perhaps the next generation will come like Somalis from the Netherlands.foxinsoxuk said:
No, the visa free travel proposal is only to the Schengen area, not to UK or Ireland.VapidBilge said:
What a dumb comment.SouthamObserver said:Visa free travel for Turks inside Schengen is the equivalent of visa free travel in the UK for EU citizens post-Brexit. If the former is a disaster, according to Leavers, surely the latter is too. Ergo, visas to travel in Europe post-Brexit. That will be fun and in no way economically damaging. Or, perhaps, visa free travel for Turks is being ever-so-slightly overegged as a problem.
With visa free travel, the many genuinely persecuted Kurds, political dissidents and Syrian refugees could come here and get asylum.
They can't all stay in Yvette Cooper's house.
Vapid bilge indeed...
0 -
Then the public can vote accordingly.chestnut said:
And Cameron is in favour.SouthamObserver said:Turkey only gets into the EU if the British government, elected by the British people, says so.
As would Corbyn be.
The public are not.
0 -
Yes, visa free travel has proliferated since then.SouthamObserver said:0 -
There have been calls for it to be used as a mosque again (which would require covering or removing the surviving mosaics) it was Ataturk that converted it to a museum.david_herdson said:
Hagia Sophia these days is now a museum, so neither church nor mosque.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Herdson, it's a very good photo, but I still think it's sad. Turkey without Istanbul would still be Turkey, but the downfall of Constantinople/Byzantium extinguished that civilisation forever.
It also makes me think of how Mecca might look if the grandest mosques were made into cathedrals.
Edited extra bit: or if Rome's cathedrals were made mosques.
As an aside, is there a cathedral equivalent term for especially large mosques?
In historic terms, I agree that there's a wistful echo of past glory.
(As an aside, I'd argue that it was actually the fall of Trebizond in 1461 that extinguished the last light of Rome, though that was putting out the embers as against the shock of the fall of Constantinople eight years earlier).
I was in Istanbul last autumn. There were a lot of tourists at the Blue Mosque, but even at prayer times very few worshipers, only a dozen or two when I was there. Turkey is a fascinating place, but could do without Erdogan.
I think that many mosques (like many churches and cathedrals in Europe and UK) were built on a grand scale as vanity projects of rulers and job creation schemes, and rarely if ever had congregations to fill them.
I terms of mosques being converted to churches, there are good examples in Andulacia. Indeed the classic domed style of mosque was something that the early muslims copied from the Byzantine style, very early mosques have an open courtyard for worship. There is a very interesting example in Cairo:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosque_of_Amr_ibn_al-As?wprov=sfla10 -
Because there are betting markets?tlg86 said:I have a question David. If we have a veto, why is there any need to talk about what might happen in Europe?
0 -
What is stupid, dangerous or sinister about it?Plato_Says said:
The helpful leak of the EU Army proposals was another fillip. There's a fistful of Junker quotes saying it's essential, and when combined with eyes-only secrecy - it looks really suspicious.DavidL said:The advantage of Turkey is that for the first time Leave have got the future track of the EU onto the agenda. It is both EU and UK policy to bring Turkey into the EU and the majority think that is a stupid idea. It is the first crack in the dam which says Remain is the status quo risk free option. Leave will need more of these if it is going to win.
I've yet to see a single comment elsewhere suggesting anything other than a stupid, dangerous and sinister idea.0 -
http://infacts.org/times-overshoots-eu-army-plans/Plato_Says said:
The helpful leak of the EU Army proposals was another fillip. There's a fistful of Junker quotes saying it's essential, and when combined with eyes-only secrecy - it looks really suspicious.DavidL said:The advantage of Turkey is that for the first time Leave have got the future track of the EU onto the agenda. It is both EU and UK policy to bring Turkey into the EU and the majority think that is a stupid idea. It is the first crack in the dam which says Remain is the status quo risk free option. Leave will need more of these if it is going to win.
I've yet to see a single comment elsewhere suggesting anything other than a stupid, dangerous and sinister idea.
Neither stupid, dangerous or sinister.
Foreign policy is one area requiring unanimity too.0 -
Did you see Obama cuddling that Japanese man? My contempt for these people knows no bounds, jetting round the world at our expense as thousands are being raped, tortured and murdered by ISIS and others. Gesture politics, that's all it is, why don't they actually do something useful.Plato_Says said:It's worth noting that Italy has had over 10k migrants arriving/delivered to their shores this week alone. That's 47k YTD.
Along with the violent fuel protests in France, bulldozing Greek refugee camps and pix of overloaded boats crossing the Med - the EU looks like a complete out of control mess.
Photo-ops of smooth suits at the G7 contrasts so strongly - it looks like fiddling with canapes whilst Rome burns.0 -
It's not a problem of PR. It's a problem of substance. Sharia law is incompatible with the ECHR and has been declared as such by the courts. It should have no place in the UK.Plato_Says said:
I still can't get over May saying Sharia Law is a good thing. Whatever nuance she put on it - the overwhelming majority of the population see it as an anti-women parallel legal system.GIN1138 said:
Has Cameron come out from under the duvet to face the media yet?VapidBilge said:A relatively poor article by David's high standards.
Leave got immigration onto the agenda in an non-racist way via Turkish accession. A comment below has been the first I've heard anyone mention the financial implications for the UK of Turkish accession. It also helps to have a part Turkish spokesman and also dovetails neatly with the refugee crisis.
The absolute shellacking Cameron got over immigration has permanently destroyed his credibility. He has been shown up to be a barefaced liar. Not Leave's doing, but they were lucky for once.
As for who "won" the week, we'll only find that out when the next batch of polls are released?
Handwaving about Jewish courts is immaterial - it's Sharia that has the PR problem.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/26/may-hails-benefits-of-sharia-as-inquiry-set-up-into-misuse-of-is/0 -
The Islamification of Turkey is the key for me. For every mile outside Istanbul I travelled, the more and more overtly religious it became. I'd considered Turkey a fairly benign place, with a conservative rural bent just like everywhere else. Nowadays - I've a quite different view.chestnut said:
And Cameron is in favour.SouthamObserver said:Turkey only gets into the EU if the British government, elected by the British people, says so.
As would Corbyn be.
The public are not.0 -
It's an ancient medieval system that should have no place in the 17th let alone 21st century. Anywhere.Cyclefree said:
It's not a problem of PR. It's a problem of substance. Sharia law is incompatible with the ECHR and has been declared as such by the courts. It should have no place in the UK.Plato_Says said:
I still can't get over May saying Sharia Law is a good thing. Whatever nuance she put on it - the overwhelming majority of the population see it as an anti-women parallel legal system.GIN1138 said:
Has Cameron come out from under the duvet to face the media yet?VapidBilge said:A relatively poor article by David's high standards.
Leave got immigration onto the agenda in an non-racist way via Turkish accession. A comment below has been the first I've heard anyone mention the financial implications for the UK of Turkish accession. It also helps to have a part Turkish spokesman and also dovetails neatly with the refugee crisis.
The absolute shellacking Cameron got over immigration has permanently destroyed his credibility. He has been shown up to be a barefaced liar. Not Leave's doing, but they were lucky for once.
As for who "won" the week, we'll only find that out when the next batch of polls are released?
Handwaving about Jewish courts is immaterial - it's Sharia that has the PR problem.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/26/may-hails-benefits-of-sharia-as-inquiry-set-up-into-misuse-of-is/0 -
As has travel generally. If logic of Leave's position on Turkey is visas for travel to Europe post-Brexit. If that's what they truly believe then so be it, but it will be immensely damaging as well as hugely unpopular. That's why the more likely explanation is that they are talking nonsense.ThreeQuidder said:
Yes, visa free travel has proliferated since then.SouthamObserver said:
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Not just the UK of course; France, Germany, Austria, Greece, Cyprus and the rest too.chestnut said:
And Cameron is in favour.SouthamObserver said:Turkey only gets into the EU if the British government, elected by the British people, says so.
As would Corbyn be.
The public are not.0 -
All armies are dangerousWanderer said:
What is stupid, dangerous or sinister about it?Plato_Says said:
The helpful leak of the EU Army proposals was another fillip. There's a fistful of Junker quotes saying it's essential, and when combined with eyes-only secrecy - it looks really suspicious.DavidL said:The advantage of Turkey is that for the first time Leave have got the future track of the EU onto the agenda. It is both EU and UK policy to bring Turkey into the EU and the majority think that is a stupid idea. It is the first crack in the dam which says Remain is the status quo risk free option. Leave will need more of these if it is going to win.
I've yet to see a single comment elsewhere suggesting anything other than a stupid, dangerous and sinister idea.0 -
Article saying Trump will win by a landslide:
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/donald-trump-will-win-the-us-presidency-by-a-landslide-dont-underestimate-him-yet-again-a7051686.html0 -
There were no visas needed pre-1973 to travel around Europe.SouthamObserver said:
Indeed. If visa free travel for Turkish citizens inside Schengen is a potential disaster, then so is visa free travel in the UK for EU citizens post-Brexit. That means visas for us to go to Europe too. Or that Leave is talking total nonsense.foxinsoxuk said:
No, the visa free travel proposal is only to the Schengen area, not to UK or Ireland.VapidBilge said:
What a dumb comment.SouthamObserver said:Visa free travel for Turks inside Schengen is the equivalent of visa free travel in the UK for EU citizens post-Brexit. If the former is a disaster, according to Leavers, surely the latter is too. Ergo, visas to travel in Europe post-Brexit. That will be fun and in no way economically damaging. Or, perhaps, visa free travel for Turks is being ever-so-slightly overegged as a problem.
With visa free travel, the many genuinely persecuted Kurds, political dissidents and Syrian refugees could come here and get asylum.
They can't all stay in Yvette Cooper's house.
Vapid bilge indeed...0 -
What like US and UK planes bombing IS and our troops help plan and train local forces for ground operations?blackburn63 said:
Did you see Obama cuddling that Japanese man? My contempt for these people knows no bounds, jetting round the world at our expense as thousands are being raped, tortured and murdered by ISIS and others. Gesture politics, that's all it is, why don't they actually do something useful.Plato_Says said:It's worth noting that Italy has had over 10k migrants arriving/delivered to their shores this week alone. That's 47k YTD.
Along with the violent fuel protests in France, bulldozing Greek refugee camps and pix of overloaded boats crossing the Med - the EU looks like a complete out of control mess.
Photo-ops of smooth suits at the G7 contrasts so strongly - it looks like fiddling with canapes whilst Rome burns.
If only Dave had thought of that...0 -
Okay, so I get the tangential link to the topic, but I think we all know why inners bring up Europe when talking about the future direction of the EU. If, for whatever reason, a deal was done with Turkey, our politicians - whether red or blue - would go along with it.david_herdson said:
Because there are betting markets?tlg86 said:I have a question David. If we have a veto, why is there any need to talk about what might happen in Europe?
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Although the dates and incidents highlighted in the thread (I haven't read the full article yet) can easily be reconciled.Alistair said:
So are you saying they are lying?MikeK said:
Hmmm. The Washington Post, who hasn't had a good word to say for Trump, since he started his campaign.Alistair said:One day after he used a teleprompter to deliver a policy speech, Donald Trump slammed politicians who use teleprompters. In the past, we have received a mixture of gratitude and pity over the fact that we track his evolving view of the device. We will gratefully accept both.
Here are Donald Trump's teleprompter positions over the past month, from April 27 through May 27:
—April 27: Pro. Uses a teleprompter while delivering a foreign policy speech.
—May 2: Con. "I don't have any teleprompters...I'm up here all by myself."
—May 20: Pro. "I've started to use [teleprompters] a little bit. They're not bad. You never get yourself in trouble when you use a teleprompter."
—May 22: Con. Attacks Clinton because she "reads off a teleprompter, you notice. She's reading off a teleprompter, she always does."
—May 24: Con. "We should have a law that when you run for president, you shouldn't be allowed to use a teleprompter."
—May 26: Pro. Uses a teleprompter while delivering an energy policy speech in North Dakota.
—May 27: Con. "Isn't it great when you don't use teleprompters? ...we oughta have a law that if you're running for president, you can't use teleprompters."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/paloma/the-daily-trail/2016/05/27/the-daily-trail-trump-to-sanders-sorry-i-don-t-debate-people-who-don-t-win/57489943981b92a22db38c78/
When making detailed policy statements - where precise wording matters - teleprompters are fine.
Trump has begun to use them a little - for policy speeches - and is fine with them, but doesn't think they should be allowed because the election of a President is about fundamental principles and judgement, not about detailed policy. He therefore criticises Hillary for using them all the time as it allows her to hide behind a wall of verbage rather than giving the America people a true understanding of what she believes and stands for.
Seems0 -
TBH, my anti-Establishment button has been firmly pressed - I'm seeing a lot of things from an entirely different perspective. I haven't felt this irked in many years.blackburn63 said:
Did you see Obama cuddling that Japanese man? My contempt for these people knows no bounds, jetting round the world at our expense as thousands are being raped, tortured and murdered by ISIS and others. Gesture politics, that's all it is, why don't they actually do something useful.Plato_Says said:It's worth noting that Italy has had over 10k migrants arriving/delivered to their shores this week alone. That's 47k YTD.
Along with the violent fuel protests in France, bulldozing Greek refugee camps and pix of overloaded boats crossing the Med - the EU looks like a complete out of control mess.
Photo-ops of smooth suits at the G7 contrasts so strongly - it looks like fiddling with canapes whilst Rome burns.
I can barely bare to watch any of them on the TV back-slapping each other. And I always mute Obama.0 -
Yep, that sort of thing, useful things, instead of apologising for something that happened before he was born. Cameron was elected to govern, he is making a bloody awful job of it.foxinsoxuk said:
What like US and UK planes bombing IS and our troops help plan and train local forces for ground operations?blackburn63 said:
Did you see Obama cuddling that Japanese man? My contempt for these people knows no bounds, jetting round the world at our expense as thousands are being raped, tortured and murdered by ISIS and others. Gesture politics, that's all it is, why don't they actually do something useful.Plato_Says said:It's worth noting that Italy has had over 10k migrants arriving/delivered to their shores this week alone. That's 47k YTD.
Along with the violent fuel protests in France, bulldozing Greek refugee camps and pix of overloaded boats crossing the Med - the EU looks like a complete out of control mess.
Photo-ops of smooth suits at the G7 contrasts so strongly - it looks like fiddling with canapes whilst Rome burns.
If only Dave had thought of that...
Interesting that the liberal luvvie set are rushing to his defence while traditional tories are disowning him.0 -
It was a very different world. However, if you don't believe visas are necessary, presumably you believe Leave are talking nonsense when they scream blue murder about scrapping visas for Turks inside the Schengen zone.Cyclefree said:
There were no visas needed pre-1973 to travel around Europe.SouthamObserver said:
Indeed. If visa free travel for Turkish citizens inside Schengen is a potential disaster, then so is visa free travel in the UK for EU citizens post-Brexit. That means visas for us to go to Europe too. Or that Leave is talking total nonsense.foxinsoxuk said:
No, the visa free travel proposal is only to the Schengen area, not to UK or Ireland.VapidBilge said:
What a dumb comment.SouthamObserver said:Visa free travel for Turks inside Schengen is the equivalent of visa free travel in the UK for EU citizens post-Brexit. If the former is a disaster, according to Leavers, surely the latter is too. Ergo, visas to travel in Europe post-Brexit. That will be fun and in no way economically damaging. Or, perhaps, visa free travel for Turks is being ever-so-slightly overegged as a problem.
With visa free travel, the many genuinely persecuted Kurds, political dissidents and Syrian refugees could come here and get asylum.
They can't all stay in Yvette Cooper's house.
Vapid bilge indeed...
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Mr. Herdson, a debatable but good point about Trebizond. I'd argue it was related, though not a true successor [as the East was to the West]. Trebizond lingered briefly, it never flourished.
Damned shame Byzantium fell.0 -
Turkish restaurants, do not a country make. Turkish prisons are a case in point; they are some of the most vile in Asia Minor and Eastern Europe, and that's saying something. Turkey is now in the process of becoming a dictatorship based on the Islamic code of Sharia. Only recently girls in normal western dress were manhandled and abused in the street and forced to cover up.DecrepitJohnL said:Turkey is a popular holiday destination, and there are lots of Turkish restaurants springing up round here (in the sense it says Turkish on the sign, rather than actually being Turkish-owned or run). Regardless of the very real problems that country has, I'm not convinced it will be universally seen as a great threat.
Turkey may not be at present a great threat but it's marching up the threat ladder. If the EU takes in that country it will be a final swansong to any remaining democracy in Europe.
Turkish restaurants are fine though, and there are some distinguished ones in my area of London.0 -
No, it's not SO. And you know you are being disingenuous.SouthamObserver said:Visa free travel for Turks inside Schengen is the equivalent of visa free travel in the UK for EU citizens post-Brexit. If the former is a disaster, according to Leavers, surely the latter is too. Ergo, visas to travel in Europe post-Brexit. That will be fun and in no way economically damaging. Or, perhaps, visa free travel for Turks is being ever-so-slightly overegged as a problem.
I'd argue it's unlikely that Italians and Greeks and Germans will be claiming asylum in the UK post Brexit. But it's quite possible that Kurds and Turks will claim asylum in Germany.
It's quite different.0 -
We are not Turkey. Turks are impoverished and more likely to overstay to illegally migrate or claimed asylum. We are not.SouthamObserver said:
It was a very different world. However, if you don't believe visas are necessary, presumably you believe Leave are talking nonsense when they scream blue murder about scrapping visas for Turks inside the Schengen zone.Cyclefree said:
There were no visas needed pre-1973 to travel around Europe.SouthamObserver said:
Indeed. If visa free travel for Turkish citizens inside Schengen is a potential disaster, then so is visa free travel in the UK for EU citizens post-Brexit. That means visas for us to go to Europe too. Or that Leave is talking total nonsense.foxinsoxuk said:
No, the visa free travel proposal is only to the Schengen area, not to UK or Ireland.VapidBilge said:
What a dumb comment.SouthamObserver said:Visa free travel for Turks inside Schengen is the equivalent of visa free travel in the UK for EU citizens post-Brexit. If the former is a disaster, according to Leavers, surely the latter is too. Ergo, visas to travel in Europe post-Brexit. That will be fun and in no way economically damaging. Or, perhaps, visa free travel for Turks is being ever-so-slightly overegged as a problem.
With visa free travel, the many genuinely persecuted Kurds, political dissidents and Syrian refugees could come here and get asylum.
They can't all stay in Yvette Cooper's house.
Vapid bilge indeed...0 -
Seriously, @DecrepitJohnL - you're bringing up food outlets as a yardstick?MikeK said:
Turkish restaurants, do not a country make. Turkish prisons are a case in point; they are some of the most vile in Asia Minor and Eastern Europe, and that's saying something. Turkey is now in the process of becoming a dictatorship based on the Islamic code of Sharia. Only recently girls in normal western dress were manhandled and abused in the street and forced to cover up.DecrepitJohnL said:Turkey is a popular holiday destination, and there are lots of Turkish restaurants springing up round here (in the sense it says Turkish on the sign, rather than actually being Turkish-owned or run). Regardless of the very real problems that country has, I'm not convinced it will be universally seen as a great threat.
Turkey may not be at present a great threat but it's marching up the threat ladder. If the EU takes in that country it will be a final swansong to any remaining democracy in Europe.
Turkish restaurants are fine though, and there are some distinguished ones in my area of London.
I'm very partial to Turkish carpets myself, but that isn't an argument either.0 -
Except you should be aware he IS doing those things?blackburn63 said:
Yep, that sort of thing, useful things, instead of apologising for something that happened before he was born. Cameron was elected to govern, he is making a bloody awful job of it.foxinsoxuk said:
What like US and UK planes bombing IS and our troops help plan and train local forces for ground operations?blackburn63 said:
Did you see Obama cuddling that Japanese man? My contempt for these people knows no bounds, jetting round the world at our expense as thousands are being raped, tortured and murdered by ISIS and others. Gesture politics, that's all it is, why don't they actually do something useful.Plato_Says said:It's worth noting that Italy has had over 10k migrants arriving/delivered to their shores this week alone. That's 47k YTD.
Along with the violent fuel protests in France, bulldozing Greek refugee camps and pix of overloaded boats crossing the Med - the EU looks like a complete out of control mess.
Photo-ops of smooth suits at the G7 contrasts so strongly - it looks like fiddling with canapes whilst Rome burns.
If only Dave had thought of that...
Interesting that the liberal luvvie set are rushing to his defence while traditional tories are disowning him.0 -
F1: P3 about to get underway.
Also, halo head protection has been agreed for next year.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/36404898
Work will continue on the aeroscreen with a view to introduction in 2018.0 -
I love these posts solemnly saying we have a veto.
In the same way that when a militant and agressive group have built a large structure without planning permission local councillors have a "veto" in that they can retrospectively refuse planning permission and order it demolished, but in practice they face being monstered and ostracised or worse if they dare to exercise that veto so they cave in to what is in effect a fait accompli.
By voting out we prevent that happening. The reaction of coercion and horror to the referendum shows the pressure that would be brought on a UK government that stayed in and wanted to veto something that the great and good favour. And that pressure is on a handful of people with much to lose personally.
At least with the referendum the pressure is on 60 million people mostly with far less to lose personally not a handful of people facing ruination of their careers if they say no.0 -
They can claim asylum now. It's not as if desperate people are not already doing it in their tens of thousands. And we can stop them coming to the UK anyway. They'll still need visas to get here. It is you who is being disingenuous.Charles said:
No, it's not SO. And you know you are being disingenuous.SouthamObserver said:Visa free travel for Turks inside Schengen is the equivalent of visa free travel in the UK for EU citizens post-Brexit. If the former is a disaster, according to Leavers, surely the latter is too. Ergo, visas to travel in Europe post-Brexit. That will be fun and in no way economically damaging. Or, perhaps, visa free travel for Turks is being ever-so-slightly overegged as a problem.
I'd argue it's unlikely that Italians and Greeks and Germans will be claiming asylum in the UK post Brexit. But it's quite possible that Kurds and Turks will claim asylum in Germany.
It's quite different.
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So what THINGS has Cameron done since last May?Philip_Thompson said:
Except you should be aware he IS doing those things?blackburn63 said:
Yep, that sort of thing, useful things, instead of apologising for something that happened before he was born. Cameron was elected to govern, he is making a bloody awful job of it.foxinsoxuk said:
What like US and UK planes bombing IS and our troops help plan and train local forces for ground operations?blackburn63 said:
Did you see Obama cuddling that Japanese man? My contempt for these people knows no bounds, jetting round the world at our expense as thousands are being raped, tortured and murdered by ISIS and others. Gesture politics, that's all it is, why don't they actually do something useful.Plato_Says said:It's worth noting that Italy has had over 10k migrants arriving/delivered to their shores this week alone. That's 47k YTD.
Along with the violent fuel protests in France, bulldozing Greek refugee camps and pix of overloaded boats crossing the Med - the EU looks like a complete out of control mess.
Photo-ops of smooth suits at the G7 contrasts so strongly - it looks like fiddling with canapes whilst Rome burns.
If only Dave had thought of that...
Interesting that the liberal luvvie set are rushing to his defence while traditional tories are disowning him.
OK he's welcomed a few hundred thousand here but what other THINGS?0 -
How many UK citizens are you expecting to claim asylum in the EU ?SouthamObserver said:Visa free travel for Turks inside Schengen is the equivalent of visa free travel in the UK for EU citizens post-Brexit. If the former is a disaster, according to Leavers, surely the latter is too. Ergo, visas to travel in Europe post-Brexit. That will be fun and in no way economically damaging. Or, perhaps, visa free travel for Turks is being ever-so-slightly overegged as a problem.
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No they can't they mostly would not be eligible for a Schengen visa at the moment.SouthamObserver said:
They can do that anyway.VapidBilge said:
What a dumb comment.SouthamObserver said:Visa free travel for Turks inside Schengen is the equivalent of visa free travel in the UK for EU citizens post-Brexit. If the former is a disaster, according to Leavers, surely the latter is too. Ergo, visas to travel in Europe post-Brexit. That will be fun and in no way economically damaging. Or, perhaps, visa free travel for Turks is being ever-so-slightly overegged as a problem.
With visa free travel, the many genuinely persecuted Kurds, political dissidents and Syrian refugees could come here and get asylum.
They can't all stay in Yvette Cooper's house.0 -
No, just pointing out the fact that Dave has been amongst the most beligerant advocate of military force against IS.blackburn63 said:
Yep, that sort of thing, useful things, instead of apologising for something that happened before he was born. Cameron was elected to govern, he is making a bloody awful job of it.foxinsoxuk said:
What like US and UK planes bombing IS and our troops help plan and train local forces for ground operations?blackburn63 said:
Did you see Obama cuddling that Japanese man? My contempt for these people knows no bounds, jetting round the world at our expense as thousands are being raped, tortured and murdered by ISIS and others. Gesture politics, that's all it is, why don't they actually do something useful.Plato_Says said:It's worth noting that Italy has had over 10k migrants arriving/delivered to their shores this week alone. That's 47k YTD.
Along with the violent fuel protests in France, bulldozing Greek refugee camps and pix of overloaded boats crossing the Med - the EU looks like a complete out of control mess.
Photo-ops of smooth suits at the G7 contrasts so strongly - it looks like fiddling with canapes whilst Rome burns.
If only Dave had thought of that...
Interesting that the liberal luvvie set are rushing to his defence while traditional tories are disowning him.
You may recall that I did not support his view.0 -
The funniest thing I've read on here is that Turkey should become secular. Yeah, and put the tooth fairy in charge.0
