Sanders looks to be trying to crash the Democrats if he doesn't get the nomination, which he obviously won't. Pretty stunning stuff.
In what way? He has said he will fight until the last vote is counted, he has not promised to do anything more after beyond push his agenda into the platform
Visa free travel for Turks inside Schengen is the equivalent of visa free travel in the UK for EU citizens post-Brexit. If the former is a disaster, according to Leavers, surely the latter is too. Ergo, visas to travel in Europe post-Brexit. That will be fun and in no way economically damaging. Or, perhaps, visa free travel for Turks is being ever-so-slightly overegged as a problem.
What a dumb comment.
With visa free travel, the many genuinely persecuted Kurds, political dissidents and Syrian refugees could come here and get asylum.
They can't all stay in Yvette Cooper's house.
They can do that anyway.
No they can't they mostly would not be eligible for a Schengen visa at the moment.
Do all those refugees coming into Europe and claiming asylum have visas?
It's worth noting that Italy has had over 10k migrants arriving/delivered to their shores this week alone. That's 47k YTD.
Along with the violent fuel protests in France, bulldozing Greek refugee camps and pix of overloaded boats crossing the Med - the EU looks like a complete out of control mess.
Photo-ops of smooth suits at the G7 contrasts so strongly - it looks like fiddling with canapes whilst Rome burns.
Did you see Obama cuddling that Japanese man? My contempt for these people knows no bounds, jetting round the world at our expense as thousands are being raped, tortured and murdered by ISIS and others. Gesture politics, that's all it is, why don't they actually do something useful.
What like US and UK planes bombing IS and our troops help plan and train local forces for ground operations?
If only Dave had thought of that...
Yep, that sort of thing, useful things, instead of apologising for something that happened before he was born. Cameron was elected to govern, he is making a bloody awful job of it.
Interesting that the liberal luvvie set are rushing to his defence while traditional tories are disowning him.
Who apologised for anything? PB has been infected by the Breitbart disease of "truthiness" in the defence of right-wing politics.
It's worth noting that Italy has had over 10k migrants arriving/delivered to their shores this week alone. That's 47k YTD.
Along with the violent fuel protests in France, bulldozing Greek refugee camps and pix of overloaded boats crossing the Med - the EU looks like a complete out of control mess.
Photo-ops of smooth suits at the G7 contrasts so strongly - it looks like fiddling with canapes whilst Rome burns.
Did you see Obama cuddling that Japanese man? My contempt for these people knows no bounds, jetting round the world at our expense as thousands are being raped, tortured and murdered by ISIS and others. Gesture politics, that's all it is, why don't they actually do something useful.
What like US and UK planes bombing IS and our troops help plan and train local forces for ground operations?
If only Dave had thought of that...
Yep, that sort of thing, useful things, instead of apologising for something that happened before he was born. Cameron was elected to govern, he is making a bloody awful job of it.
Interesting that the liberal luvvie set are rushing to his defence while traditional tories are disowning him.
Except you should be aware he IS doing those things?
So what THINGS has Cameron done since last May?
OK he's welcomed a few hundred thousand here but what other THINGS?
How about for starters taking a vote to Parliament to authorise the use of military force against IS in Syria? How about using said military force to tackle IS in both Syria and Iraq?
I.e. he has done exactly what you said he should but seem to think he hasn't for some bizarre reason. Maybe you were in a cave or under a rock when we had the vote over using force in Syria?
It's worth noting that Italy has had over 10k migrants arriving/delivered to their shores this week alone. That's 47k YTD.
Along with the violent fuel protests in France, bulldozing Greek refugee camps and pix of overloaded boats crossing the Med - the EU looks like a complete out of control mess.
Photo-ops of smooth suits at the G7 contrasts so strongly - it looks like fiddling with canapes whilst Rome burns.
Did you see Obama cuddling that Japanese man? My contempt for these people knows no bounds, jetting round the world at our expense as thousands are being raped, tortured and murdered by ISIS and others. Gesture politics, that's all it is, why don't they actually do something useful.
The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was horrific. A necessary evil, IMHO, but still evil.
It's worth noting that Italy has had over 10k migrants arriving/delivered to their shores this week alone. That's 47k YTD.
Along with the violent fuel protests in France, bulldozing Greek refugee camps and pix of overloaded boats crossing the Med - the EU looks like a complete out of control mess.
Photo-ops of smooth suits at the G7 contrasts so strongly - it looks like fiddling with canapes whilst Rome burns.
Did you see Obama cuddling that Japanese man? My contempt for these people knows no bounds, jetting round the world at our expense as thousands are being raped, tortured and murdered by ISIS and others. Gesture politics, that's all it is, why don't they actually do something useful.
What like US and UK planes bombing IS and our troops help plan and train local forces for ground operations?
If only Dave had thought of that...
Yep, that sort of thing, useful things, instead of apologising for something that happened before he was born. Cameron was elected to govern, he is making a bloody awful job of it.
Interesting that the liberal luvvie set are rushing to his defence while traditional tories are disowning him.
No, just pointing out the fact that Dave has been amongst the most beligerant advocate of military force against IS.
You may recall that I did not support his view.
Oh I see, he's been beligerant - is that more beligerant than some or not as beligerant as others? The world is full of empty vessels.
The blokes a total fraud, I told you that years ago, he knows he's been found out which is why he paved the way pre GE.
Only ARSE deniers think it's level-pegging and such squalid individuals should be consigned to ConHome for life along with advocates of STV and genocidal turnip eradicators.
Visa free travel for Turks inside Schengen is the equivalent of visa free travel in the UK for EU citizens post-Brexit. If the former is a disaster, according to Leavers, surely the latter is too. Ergo, visas to travel in Europe post-Brexit. That will be fun and in no way economically damaging. Or, perhaps, visa free travel for Turks is being ever-so-slightly overegged as a problem.
No, it's not SO. And you know you are being disingenuous.
I'd argue it's unlikely that Italians and Greeks and Germans will be claiming asylum in the UK post Brexit. But it's quite possible that Kurds and Turks will claim asylum in Germany.
It's quite different.
They can claim asylum now. It's not as if desperate people are not already doing it in their tens of thousands. And we can stop them coming to the UK anyway. They'll still need visas to get here. It is you who is being disingenuous.
Sure, but it makes it a lot easier for them to get to Germany rather than risking their lives and a long walk through the Balkans.
And - for a period of time until they become German citizens - we can stop them coming to the UK.
The whole thing about Leaving is we can do deals when it makes sense for us to do deals and not when it doesn't. It's about the direction of travel more than anything else. Take control.
It's worth noting that Italy has had over 10k migrants arriving/delivered to their shores this week alone. That's 47k YTD.
Along with the violent fuel protests in France, bulldozing Greek refugee camps and pix of overloaded boats crossing the Med - the EU looks like a complete out of control mess.
Photo-ops of smooth suits at the G7 contrasts so strongly - it looks like fiddling with canapes whilst Rome burns.
Did you see Obama cuddling that Japanese man? My contempt for these people knows no bounds, jetting round the world at our expense as thousands are being raped, tortured and murdered by ISIS and others. Gesture politics, that's all it is, why don't they actually do something useful.
What like US and UK planes bombing IS and our troops help plan and train local forces for ground operations?
If only Dave had thought of that...
Yep, that sort of thing, useful things, instead of apologising for something that happened before he was born. Cameron was elected to govern, he is making a bloody awful job of it.
Interesting that the liberal luvvie set are rushing to his defence while traditional tories are disowning him.
Who apologised for anything? PB has been infected by the Breitbart disease of "truthiness" in the defence of right-wing politics.
Well I'm assuming as Obama cuddled that poor bloke he didn't say to him
A relatively poor article by David's high standards.
Leave got immigration onto the agenda in an non-racist way via Turkish accession. A comment below has been the first I've heard anyone mention the financial implications for the UK of Turkish accession. It also helps to have a part Turkish spokesman and also dovetails neatly with the refugee crisis.
The absolute shellacking Cameron got over immigration has permanently destroyed his credibility. He has been shown up to be a barefaced liar. Not Leave's doing, but they were lucky for once.
Has Cameron come out from under the duvet to face the media yet?
As for who "won" the week, we'll only find that out when the next batch of polls are released?
I still can't get over May saying Sharia Law is a good thing. Whatever nuance she put on it - the overwhelming majority of the population see it as an anti-women parallel legal system.
Handwaving about Jewish courts is immaterial - it's Sharia that has the PR problem.
It's not a problem of PR. It's a problem of substance. Sharia law is incompatible with the ECHR and has been declared as such by the courts. It should have no place in the UK.
Makes one look with fresh suspicion at the proposed British Bill of Rights.
It's worth noting that Italy has had over 10k migrants arriving/delivered to their shores this week alone. That's 47k YTD.
Along with the violent fuel protests in France, bulldozing Greek refugee camps and pix of overloaded boats crossing the Med - the EU looks like a complete out of control mess.
Photo-ops of smooth suits at the G7 contrasts so strongly - it looks like fiddling with canapes whilst Rome burns.
Did you see Obama cuddling that Japanese man? My contempt for these people knows no bounds, jetting round the world at our expense as thousands are being raped, tortured and murdered by ISIS and others. Gesture politics, that's all it is, why don't they actually do something useful.
The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was horrific. A necessary evil, IMHO, but still evil.
The funniest thing I've read on here is that Turkey should become secular. Yeah, and put the tooth fairy in charge.
It was created and grew as a secular state. Ataturk removed a great deal of the Islamic paraphernalia of the Ottomans. He even changed the alphabet as part of that.
Mr. Herdson, a debatable but good point about Trebizond. I'd argue it was related, though not a true successor [as the East was to the West]. Trebizond lingered briefly, it never flourished.
Damned shame Byzantium fell.
Haga Sophia is hugely impressive, but much less so as a museum than it would have been as a cathedral. I love the quote from the Russian emissaries who said they thought they'd died and gone to Heaven, when witnessing a service there.
Turkey only gets into the EU if the British government, elected by the British people, says so.
And Cameron is in favour.
As would Corbyn be.
The public are not.
The Islamification of Turkey is the key for me. For every mile outside Istanbul I travelled, the more and more overtly religious it became. I'd considered Turkey a fairly benign place, with a conservative rural bent just like everywhere else. Nowadays - I've a quite different view.
Many of the population of Thrace and coastal western Turkey are ethnically European, essentially ethnic Greeks/Romans who converted to Islam after 1453 and have a generally western outlook on life. After 1453, conversion made life much much easier for you. Further east that is not the case.
This is reflected in the election results where Erdogan did very poorly in the west but very well in the midlands and east (except Kurdish Areas). Like the rest of Europe, western Turks have low birth rates and eastern Turks far higher birth rates
The maps , the election maps in particular, eerily reflect ottoman maps showing where there were greek and armnenian populations before the unpleasantness of the 20th Century.
What we think of as Turks, those who live in Istanbul and western coastal regions are in many cases essentially muslim Greeks. (and millions are also descended from ethnic turk Greek muslims who were expelled from Greece in the population exchanges of the 1920s
It's worth noting that Italy has had over 10k migrants arriving/delivered to their shores this week alone. That's 47k YTD.
Along with the violent fuel protests in France, bulldozing Greek refugee camps and pix of overloaded boats crossing the Med - the EU looks like a complete out of control mess.
Photo-ops of smooth suits at the G7 contrasts so strongly - it looks like fiddling with canapes whilst Rome burns.
Did you see Obama cuddling that Japanese man? My contempt for these people knows no bounds, jetting round the world at our expense as thousands are being raped, tortured and murdered by ISIS and others. Gesture politics, that's all it is, why don't they actually do something useful.
What like US and UK planes bombing IS and our troops help plan and train local forces for ground operations?
If only Dave had thought of that...
Yep, that sort of thing, useful things, instead of apologising for something that happened before he was born. Cameron was elected to govern, he is making a bloody awful job of it.
Interesting that the liberal luvvie set are rushing to his defence while traditional tories are disowning him.
Except you should be aware he IS doing those things?
So what THINGS has Cameron done since last May?
OK he's welcomed a few hundred thousand here but what other THINGS?
How about for starters taking a vote to Parliament to authorise the use of military force against IS in Syria? How about using said military force to tackle IS in both Syria and Iraq?
I.e. he has done exactly what you said he should but seem to think he hasn't for some bizarre reason. Maybe you were in a cave or under a rock when we had the vote over using force in Syria?
Not bad for a year's work, he bombed the fuck out of Syria.
Mr. 63, it was secular until fairly recently. But I agree a return to that seems unlikely.
In my experience from 10yrs ago - only Istanbul and a few other cities were, outside them it was very much traditional headscarves and full modesty. It was 98% Muslim vs 2% Christian IIRC - Wiki says it's now 99.8% Muslim.
Only ARSE deniers think it's level-pegging and such squalid individuals should be consigned to ConHome for life along with advocates of STV and genocidal turnip eradicators.
Latest ARSE projection REMAIN +12.
The economist poll of polls is Remain 40 Leave 39
Which was more accurate in 2015? JackW's ARSE or The Economist Poll of Polls?
The funniest thing I've read on here is that Turkey should become secular. Yeah, and put the tooth fairy in charge.
Kemal Ataturk did secularize Turkish institutions*, including ending the caliphate, adopting western dress and the Roman alphabet. He was rather a fascist in many ways, but is still heavily respected there. A revival of Ataturkism is the best hope for a secularist Turkey, though a slightly more democratic version would be in keeping with the times.
*amongst many other things including killing my grandmothers uncle via his counterattack at Gallipoli.
Visa free travel for Turks inside Schengen is the equivalent of visa free travel in the UK for EU citizens post-Brexit. If the former is a disaster, according to Leavers, surely the latter is too. Ergo, visas to travel in Europe post-Brexit. That will be fun and in no way economically damaging. Or, perhaps, visa free travel for Turks is being ever-so-slightly overegged as a problem.
No, it's not SO. And you know you are being disingenuous.
I'd argue it's unlikely that Italians and Greeks and Germans will be claiming asylum in the UK post Brexit. But it's quite possible that Kurds and Turks will claim asylum in Germany.
It's quite different.
They can claim asylum now. It's not as if desperate people are not already doing it in their tens of thousands. And we can stop them coming to the UK anyway. They'll still need visas to get here. It is you who is being disingenuous.
Sure, but it makes it a lot easier for them to get to Germany rather than risking their lives and a long walk through the Balkans.
And - for a period of time until they become German citizens - we can stop them coming to the UK.
The whole thing about Leaving is we can do deals when it makes sense for us to do deals and not when it doesn't. It's about the direction of travel more than anything else. Take control.
Leaving the EU will change nothing about Turkish citizens being able to travel to the UK. It is disingenuous, at best, to say otherwise.
It's worth noting that Italy has had over 10k migrants arriving/delivered to their shores this week alone. That's 47k YTD.
Along with the violent fuel protests in France, bulldozing Greek refugee camps and pix of overloaded boats crossing the Med - the EU looks like a complete out of control mess.
Photo-ops of smooth suits at the G7 contrasts so strongly - it looks like fiddling with canapes whilst Rome burns.
Did you see Obama cuddling that Japanese man? My contempt for these people knows no bounds, jetting round the world at our expense as thousands are being raped, tortured and murdered by ISIS and others. Gesture politics, that's all it is, why don't they actually do something useful.
What like US and UK planes bombing IS and our troops help plan and train local forces for ground operations?
If only Dave had thought of that...
Yep, that sort of thing, useful things, instead of apologising for something that happened before he was born. Cameron was elected to govern, he is making a bloody awful job of it.
Interesting that the liberal luvvie set are rushing to his defence while traditional tories are disowning him.
Except you should be aware he IS doing those things?
So what THINGS has Cameron done since last May?
OK he's welcomed a few hundred thousand here but what other THINGS?
How about for starters taking a vote to Parliament to authorise the use of military force against IS in Syria? How about using said military force to tackle IS in both Syria and Iraq?
I.e. he has done exactly what you said he should but seem to think he hasn't for some bizarre reason. Maybe you were in a cave or under a rock when we had the vote over using force in Syria?
Not bad for a year's work, he bombed the fuck out of Syria.
Is that it?
In the context of dealing with ISIS like you asked? Yes he's done exactly what you suggested he should on the issue you chose.
semi-O/T: I went this week with a friend to the "free speech under attack" debate at Conway Hall with Garton Ash, Malik (author of the brilliant Search for a Moral Compass), Rowan Williams and a fourth speaker who I've forgotten. Interesting discussion though would have benefited from someone who disagreed more - they all ranged from "more free speech than now" to "free speech without any restrictions whatever" (the speaker who I've forgotten had no objection to encouragement of violence or publishing names and addresses on the internet, so long as there was no physical violence). Garton Ash wanted every newspaper in the West to publish the Charlie Hebdo cartoons, to show the murderers that they couldn't get away with it.
Williams was the most nuanced - said he was in favour of people being allowed to be rude about religion, but he had to say that moderate, liberal Muslims found it difficult when gratuitously obscene stuff about Mohammed was published - it made it harder for them to hold the line against fundamentalists.
The distinction that my friend and I felt wasn't made clearly enough was between what should be illegal (very little) and what should be considered nasty/poor taste (cartoons of Mohammed having sex etc.). It's possible to be 100% against intimidation or even murder of cartoonists without thereby saying that every cartoon is great stuff and ought to be published everywhere.
Mr. Herdson, a debatable but good point about Trebizond. I'd argue it was related, though not a true successor [as the East was to the West]. Trebizond lingered briefly, it never flourished.
Damned shame Byzantium fell.
It claimed it was a true successor following the shattering of the Eastern empire in the Fourth Crusade and culturally it's hard to argue otherwise - it was part of the Eastern empire until that point (the East was not only a true successor to the unified Roman empire as you well know, but arguably had the stronger claim as the senior given that Constantinople's status as the New Rome).
But although I think it can be considered a true successor of Rome - and ultimately, the last one - its fall can't be anything other than a postscript to the events of 1453.
I agree with you about Byzantium; the world might well be a very different, and better, place had it survived into the 20th century.
It's worth noting that Italy has had over 10k migrants arriving/delivered to their shores this week alone. That's 47k YTD.
Along with the violent fuel protests in France, bulldozing Greek refugee camps and pix of overloaded boats crossing the Med - the EU looks like a complete out of control mess.
Photo-ops of smooth suits at the G7 contrasts so strongly - it looks like fiddling with canapes whilst Rome burns.
Did you see Obama cuddling that Japanese man? My contempt for these people knows no bounds, jetting round the world at our expense as thousands are being raped, tortured and murdered by ISIS and others. Gesture politics, that's all it is, why don't they actually do something useful.
The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was horrific. A necessary evil, IMHO, but still evil.
Indeed. But the Japanese were not innocent victims. They had been perpetrating evil themselves on plenty of other countries for at least a decade before then.
Mr. Herdson, a debatable but good point about Trebizond. I'd argue it was related, though not a true successor [as the East was to the West]. Trebizond lingered briefly, it never flourished.
Damned shame Byzantium fell.
Haga Sophia is hugely impressive, but much less so as a museum than it would have been as a cathedral. I love the quote from the Russian emissaries who said they thought they'd died and gone to Heaven, when witnessing a service there.
As far as the Russian Orthodox Church is concerned Hagia Sophia is their Vatican.
The first Russian Tsar married the daughter of the last Roman Emperor who fell in 1453 and the Russians regard themselves as the continuation of the Eastern Roman Empire and Constantinople as their capital in exile. But for the Russian Revolution the Victorious Tsar would have been victoriously recrowned in Hagia Sophia after World War 1 as the allies had secretly agreed suring world war 1 that Istanbul and the surrounding area would go to Russia after defeat of the Ottomans, but it was voided by the revolution.
It's worth noting that Italy has had over 10k migrants arriving/delivered to their shores this week alone. That's 47k YTD.
Along with the violent fuel protests in France, bulldozing Greek refugee camps and pix of overloaded boats crossing the Med - the EU looks like a complete out of control mess.
Photo-ops of smooth suits at the G7 contrasts so strongly - it looks like fiddling with canapes whilst Rome burns.
Did you see Obama cuddling that Japanese man? My contempt for these people knows no bounds, jetting round the world at our expense as thousands are being raped, tortured and murdered by ISIS and others. Gesture politics, that's all it is, why don't they actually do something useful.
What like US and UK planes bombing IS and our troops help plan and train local forces for ground operations?
If only Dave had thought of that...
Yep, that sort of thing, useful things, instead of apologising for something that happened before he was born. Cameron was elected to govern, he is making a bloody awful job of it.
Interesting that the liberal luvvie set are rushing to his defence while traditional tories are disowning him.
Except you should be aware he IS doing those things?
So what THINGS has Cameron done since last May?
OK he's welcomed a few hundred thousand here but what other THINGS?
How about for starters taking a vote to Parliament to authorise the use of military force against IS in Syria? How about using said military force to tackle IS in both Syria and Iraq?
I.e. he has done exactly what you said he should but seem to think he hasn't for some bizarre reason. Maybe you were in a cave or under a rock when we had the vote over using force in Syria?
Not bad for a year's work, he bombed the fuck out of Syria.
Is that it?
In the context of dealing with ISIS like you asked? Yes he's done exactly what you suggested he should on the issue you chose.
Seems like you're the empty vessel here.
Yes, but these THINGS you referred to - what are they?
It's worth noting that Italy has had over 10k migrants arriving/delivered to their shores this week alone. That's 47k YTD.
Along with the violent fuel protests in France, bulldozing Greek refugee camps and pix of overloaded boats crossing the Med - the EU looks like a complete out of control mess.
Photo-ops of smooth suits at the G7 contrasts so strongly - it looks like fiddling with canapes whilst Rome burns.
Did you see Obama cuddling that Japanese man? My contempt for these people knows no bounds, jetting round the world at our expense as thousands are being raped, tortured and murdered by ISIS and others. Gesture politics, that's all it is, why don't they actually do something useful.
What like US and UK planes bombing IS and our troops help plan and train local forces for ground operations?
If only Dave had thought of that...
Yep, that sort of thing, useful things, instead of apologising for something that happened before he was born. Cameron was elected to govern, he is making a bloody awful job of it.
Interesting that the liberal luvvie set are rushing to his defence while traditional tories are disowning him.
Except you should be aware he IS doing those things?
So what THINGS has Cameron done since last May?
OK he's welcomed a few hundred thousand here but what other THINGS?
How about for starters taking a vote to Parliament to authorise the use of military force against IS in Syria? How about using said military force to tackle IS in both Syria and Iraq?
I.e. he has done exactly what you said he should but seem to think he hasn't for some bizarre reason. Maybe you were in a cave or under a rock when we had the vote over using force in Syria?
Not bad for a year's work, he bombed the fuck out of Syria.
Is that it?
To all those concerned. The RAF has carried out less than 50 sorties in Syria - that for the uninitiated - is less than 50 bomb loads in all the months since Cammo gave the go ahead to bomb Isil in Syria as well as Irak.
Must be a shortage of bombs somewhere. In the same months Russia carried outmore than 4.5K sorties.
It's worth noting that Italy has had over 10k migrants arriving/delivered to their shores this week alone. That's 47k YTD.
Along with the violent fuel protests in France, bulldozing Greek refugee camps and pix of overloaded boats crossing the Med - the EU looks like a complete out of control mess.
Photo-ops of smooth suits at the G7 contrasts so strongly - it looks like fiddling with canapes whilst Rome burns.
Did you see Obama cuddling that Japanese man? My contempt for these people knows no bounds, jetting round the world at our expense as thousands are being raped, tortured and murdered by ISIS and others. Gesture politics, that's all it is, why don't they actually do something useful.
The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was horrific. A necessary evil, IMHO, but still evil.
Indeed. But the Japanese were not innocent victims. They had been perpetrating evil themselves on plenty of other countries for at least a decade before then.
As you sow so shall you reap.
Or as a cabbie might put it, it was the only language they understood.
Visa free travel for Turks inside Schengen is the equivalent of visa free travel in the UK for EU citizens post-Brexit. If the former is a disaster, according to Leavers, surely the latter is too. Ergo, visas to travel in Europe post-Brexit. That will be fun and in no way economically damaging. Or, perhaps, visa free travel for Turks is being ever-so-slightly overegged as a problem.
No, it's not SO. And you know you are being disingenuous.
I'd argue it's unlikely that Italians and Greeks and Germans will be claiming asylum in the UK post Brexit. But it's quite possible that Kurds and Turks will claim asylum in Germany.
It's quite different.
They can claim asylum now. It's not as if desperate people are not already doing it in their tens of thousands. And we can stop them coming to the UK anyway. They'll still need visas to get here. It is you who is being disingenuous.
Sure, but it makes it a lot easier for them to get to Germany rather than risking their lives and a long walk through the Balkans.
And - for a period of time until they become German citizens - we can stop them coming to the UK.
The whole thing about Leaving is we can do deals when it makes sense for us to do deals and not when it doesn't. It's about the direction of travel more than anything else. Take control.
Leaving the EU will change nothing about Turkish citizens being able to travel to the UK. It is disingenuous, at best, to say otherwise.
I'm not saying that. I've not commented on it at all. So please leave off the personal attacks.
It is this comment of yours that I am responding to.
Visa free travel for Turks inside Schengen is the equivalent of visa free travel in the UK for EU citizens post-Brexit.
Mr. Herdson, a debatable but good point about Trebizond. I'd argue it was related, though not a true successor [as the East was to the West]. Trebizond lingered briefly, it never flourished.
Damned shame Byzantium fell.
Haga Sophia is hugely impressive, but much less so as a museum than it would have been as a cathedral. I love the quote from the Russian emissaries who said they thought they'd died and gone to Heaven, when witnessing a service there.
I'm going to be unpopular here and say I thought it was a most dull experience to visit. And I was bored stiff after visiting a couple of mosques. Seen one, seen them all springs to mind.
Compared to most churches or almost any temple of whatever denomination [esp in India] - they aren't in the same league.
It's worth noting that Italy has had over 10k migrants arriving/delivered to their shores this week alone. That's 47k YTD.
Along with the violent fuel protests in France, bulldozing Greek refugee camps and pix of overloaded boats crossing the Med - the EU looks like a complete out of control mess.
Photo-ops of smooth suits at the G7 contrasts so strongly - it looks like fiddling with canapes whilst Rome burns.
Did you see Obama cuddling that Japanese man? My contempt for these people knows no bounds, jetting round the world at our expense as thousands are being raped, tortured and murdered by ISIS and others. Gesture politics, that's all it is, why don't they actually do something useful.
The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was horrific. A necessary evil, IMHO, but still evil.
Indeed. But the Japanese were not innocent victims. They had been perpetrating evil themselves on plenty of other countries for at least a decade before then.
As you sow so shall you reap.
Oh, absolutely. I started reading a book about the Sack of Nanking in 1937, and had to give up because it was so nauseating.
Turkey only gets into the EU if the British government, elected by the British people, says so.
And Cameron is in favour.
As would Corbyn be.
The public are not.
The Islamification of Turkey is the key for me. For every mile outside Istanbul I travelled, the more and more overtly religious it became. I'd considered Turkey a fairly benign place, with a conservative rural bent just like everywhere else. Nowadays - I've a quite different view.
Many of the population of Thrace and coastal western Turkey are ethnically European, essentially ethnic Greeks/Romans who converted to Islam after 1453 and have a generally western outlook on life. After 1453, conversion made life much much easier for you. Further east that is not the case.
This is reflected in the election results where Erdogan did very poorly in the west but very well in the midlands and east (except Kurdish Areas). Like the rest of Europe, western Turks have low birth rates and eastern Turks far higher birth rates
The maps , the election maps in particular, eerily reflect ottoman maps showing where there were greek and armnenian populations before the unpleasantness of the 20th Century.
What we think of as Turks, those who live in Istanbul and western coastal regions are in many cases essentially muslim Greeks. (and millions are also descended from ethnic turk Greek muslims who were expelled from Greece in the population exchanges of the 1920s
There were advantages too in remaining Christian under the Ottomans, including exemptions from military service. The Ottomans were not big proseltisers as they found it convenient to have non-muslim subjects who paid more tax and trade in ways that Muslims were excluded from such as the payment of interest. It is why there were so few Muslims in Ottoman Europe despite centuries of occupation, except Bosnia and Albania. As late as 1914 20% of Ottoman subjects were Christian. Istanbul was majority Greek until the 1920's.
The funniest thing I've read on here is that Turkey should become secular. Yeah, and put the tooth fairy in charge.
Kemal Ataturk did secularize Turkish institutions*, including ending the caliphate, adopting western dress and the Roman alphabet. He was rather a fascist in many ways, but is still heavily respected there. A revival of Ataturkism is the best hope for a secularist Turkey, though a slightly more democratic version would be in keeping with the times.
*amongst many other things including killing my grandmothers uncle via his counterattack at Gallipoli.
The trend in the Islamic world seems to be away from secularisation and towards more Islamization and one can even see this in some of the younger generations within Muslim communities within Europe. It think it is deluded to think that we will get a secular democratic Turkey in the way we understand it any time soon.
There were advantages too in remaining Christian under the Ottomans, including exemptions from military service. The Ottomans were not big proseltisers as they found it convenient to have non-muslim subjects who paid more tax and trade in ways that Muslims were excluded from such as the payment of interest. It is why there were so few Muslims in Ottoman Europe despite centuries of occupation, except Bosnia and Albania. 20% of Ottoman citizens in 1914 were Christian.
The millet system worked surprisingly well but not everyone was keen on being excluded from senior posts, paying higher taxes, and in earlier days having their children forcibly adopted and converted.(Devşirme) "In this system children of the rural Christian populations of the Balkans—particularly Albanians, Bulgarians, Serbs, and northern Greeks—were conscripted before adolescence and were brought up as Muslims."
Visa free travel for Turks inside Schengen is the equivalent of visa free travel in the UK for EU citizens post-Brexit. If the former is a disaster, according to Leavers, surely the latter is too. Ergo, visas to travel in Europe post-Brexit. That will be fun and in no way economically damaging. Or, perhaps, visa free travel for Turks is being ever-so-slightly overegged as a problem.
No, it's not SO. And you know you are being disingenuous.
I'd argue it's unlikely that Italians and Greeks and Germans will be claiming asylum in the UK post Brexit. But it's quite possible that Kurds and Turks will claim asylum in Germany.
It's quite different.
They can claim asylum now. It's not as if desperate people are not already doing it in their tens of thousands. And we can stop them coming to the UK anyway. They'll still need visas to get here. It is you who is being disingenuous.
Sure, but it makes it a lot easier for them to get to Germany rather than risking their lives and a long walk through the Balkans.
And - for a period of time until they become German citizens - we can stop them coming to the UK.
The whole thing about Leaving is we can do deals when it makes sense for us to do deals and not when it doesn't. It's about the direction of travel more than anything else. Take control.
Leaving the EU will change nothing about Turkish citizens being able to travel to the UK. It is disingenuous, at best, to say otherwise.
I agree, Mr. Observer (which is doubtless a great relief to you) and I cannot understand why some people are getting so excited about the Turkish deal. It is probably the best way to deal with an appalling situation caused, in part, by Frau Merkel's stupidity. As far as the UK is concerned, in or out, it makes not a happeth of difference.
It's worth noting that Italy has had over 10k migrants arriving/delivered to their shores this week alone. That's 47k YTD.
Along with the violent fuel protests in France, bulldozing Greek refugee camps and pix of overloaded boats crossing the Med - the EU looks like a complete out of control mess.
Photo-ops of smooth suits at the G7 contrasts so strongly - it looks like fiddling with canapes whilst Rome burns.
Did you see Obama cuddling that Japanese man? My contempt for these people knows no bounds, jetting round the world at our expense as thousands are being raped, tortured and murdered by ISIS and others. Gesture politics, that's all it is, why don't they actually do something useful.
The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was horrific. A necessary evil, IMHO, but still evil.
Indeed. But the Japanese were not innocent victims. They had been perpetrating evil themselves on plenty of other countries for at least a decade before then.
As you sow so shall you reap.
The people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, ordinary Japanese/Korean civilians were innocent victims.
Turkey only gets into the EU if the British government, elected by the British people, says so.
And Cameron is in favour.
As would Corbyn be.
The public are not.
The Islamification of Turkey is the key for me. For every mile outside Istanbul I travelled, the more and more overtly religious it became. I'd considered Turkey a fairly benign place, with a conservative rural bent just like everywhere else. Nowadays - I've a quite different view.
Many of the population of Thrace and coastal western Turkey are ethnically European, essentially ethnic Greeks/Romans who converted to Islam after 1453 and have a generally western outlook on life. After 1453, conversion made life much much easier for you. Further east that is not the case.
This is reflected in the election results where Erdogan did very poorly in the west but very well in the midlands and east (except Kurdish Areas). Like the rest of Europe, western Turks have low birth rates and eastern Turks far higher birth rates
The maps , the election maps in particular, eerily reflect ottoman maps showing where there were greek and armnenian populations before the unpleasantness of the 20th Century.
What we think of as Turks, those who live in Istanbul and western coastal regions are in many cases essentially muslim Greeks. (and millions are also descended from ethnic turk Greek muslims who were expelled from Greece in the population exchanges of the 1920s
There were advantages too in remaining Christian under the Ottomans, including exemptions from military service. The Ottomans were not big proseltisers as they found it convenient to have non-muslim subjects who paid more tax and trade in ways that Muslims were excluded from such as the payment of interest. It is why there were so few Muslims in Ottoman Europe despite centuries of occupation, except Bosnia and Albania. As late as 1914 20% of Ottoman subjects were Christian. Istanbul was majority Greek until the 1920's.
One of the peculiarities of the Ottoman Empire was the way that the supposed ruling race, the Turks, were sidelined in favour of ethnic groups like Albanians (who dominated the army) and Armenians, Greeks, and Jews (who dominated commerce).
Mr. Herdson, a debatable but good point about Trebizond. I'd argue it was related, though not a true successor [as the East was to the West]. Trebizond lingered briefly, it never flourished.
Damned shame Byzantium fell.
Haga Sophia is hugely impressive, but much less so as a museum than it would have been as a cathedral. I love the quote from the Russian emissaries who said they thought they'd died and gone to Heaven, when witnessing a service there.
As far as the Russian Orthodox Church is concerned Hagia Sophia is their Vatican.
The first Russian Tsar married the daughter of the last Roman Emperor who fell in 1453 and the Russians regard themselves as the continuation of the Eastern Roman Empire and Constantinople as their capital in exile. But for the Russian Revolution the Victorious Tsar would have been victoriously recrowned in Hagia Sophia after World War 1 as the allies had secretly agreed suring world war 1 that Istanbul and the surrounding area would go to Russia after defeat of the Ottomans, but it was voided by the revolution.
The recent Crimean eposide and near war between Russia and Turkey over the shot down plane in Syria has to be looked at in this context.
I don't entirely buy the narrative in this book, but the Tsars did want to control the Balkans in general and Constantinople in particular as part of their war aims in 1914:
It's worth noting that Italy has had over 10k migrants arriving/delivered to their shores this week alone. That's 47k YTD.
Along with the violent fuel protests in France, bulldozing Greek refugee camps and pix of overloaded boats crossing the Med - the EU looks like a complete out of control mess.
Photo-ops of smooth suits at the G7 contrasts so strongly - it looks like fiddling with canapes whilst Rome burns.
Did you see Obama cuddling that Japanese man? My contempt for these people knows no bounds, jetting round the world at our expense as thousands are being raped, tortured and murdered by ISIS and others. Gesture politics, that's all it is, why don't they actually do something useful.
The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was horrific. A necessary evil, IMHO, but still evil.
It was the nature of war; a war that Japan brought on themselves. The bombings certainly saved many tens of thousands of allies lives - probably hundreds of thousands - and probably millions of Japanese ones given the state of near-famine the country was in in August 1945. They were certainly no worse than the Tokyo fire-bombing, which killed more people (not that anyone remembers that because it doesn't have political potency).
The decision to drop the bombs was the right one. As such, no apology is needed. We can, however, regret the losses that war brings, just as we can put past hostility behind us.
A relatively poor article by David's high standards.
Leave got immigration onto the agenda in an non-racist way via Turkish accession. A comment below has been the first I've heard anyone mention the financial implications for the UK of Turkish accession. It also helps to have a part Turkish spokesman and also dovetails neatly with the refugee crisis.
The absolute shellacking Cameron got over immigration has permanently destroyed his credibility. He has been shown up to be a barefaced liar. Not Leave's doing, but they were lucky for once.
Has Cameron come out from under the duvet to face the media yet?
As for who "won" the week, we'll only find that out when the next batch of polls are released?
I still can't get over May saying Sharia Law is a good thing. Whatever nuance she put on it - the overwhelming majority of the population see it as an anti-women parallel legal system.
Handwaving about Jewish courts is immaterial - it's Sharia that has the PR problem.
It's not a problem of PR. It's a problem of substance. Sharia law is incompatible with the ECHR and has been declared as such by the courts. It should have no place in the UK.
It's an ancient medieval system that should have no place in the 17th let alone 21st century. Anywhere.
Yep. People should just shut up about Magna Carta.
It's worth noting that Italy has had over 10k migrants arriving/delivered to their shores this week alone. That's 47k YTD.
Along with the violent fuel protests in France, bulldozing Greek refugee camps and pix of overloaded boats crossing the Med - the EU looks like a complete out of control mess.
Photo-ops of smooth suits at the G7 contrasts so strongly - it looks like fiddling with canapes whilst Rome burns.
Did you see Obama cuddling that Japanese man? My contempt for these people knows no bounds, jetting round the world at our expense as thousands are being raped, tortured and murdered by ISIS and others. Gesture politics, that's all it is, why don't they actually do something useful.
The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was horrific. A necessary evil, IMHO, but still evil.
Indeed. But the Japanese were not innocent victims. They had been perpetrating evil themselves on plenty of other countries for at least a decade before then.
As you sow so shall you reap.
The people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, ordinary Japanese/Korean civilians were innocent victims.
Some of them were. But it was a war, and in a war there are innocent victims.
It was either that or face slaughter on a world war 1 scale mounting a full land invasion (and you could argue that many of the Japanese troops who would have then died would also have been innocent victims).
Then there is the Allied prisoners of war who would have all been slaughtered if the war had ended in much the way the war against Germany did but were saved only by the unexpected suddeness of the wars end.
There were advantages too in remaining Christian under the Ottomans, including exemptions from military service. The Ottomans were not big proseltisers as they found it convenient to have non-muslim subjects who paid more tax and trade in ways that Muslims were excluded from such as the payment of interest. It is why there were so few Muslims in Ottoman Europe despite centuries of occupation, except Bosnia and Albania. 20% of Ottoman citizens in 1914 were Christian.
The millet system worked surprisingly well but not everyone was keen on being excluded from senior posts, paying higher taxes, and in earlier days having their children forcibly adopted and converted.(Devşirme) "In this system children of the rural Christian populations of the Balkans—particularly Albanians, Bulgarians, Serbs, and northern Greeks—were conscripted before adolescence and were brought up as Muslims."
Visa free travel for Turks inside Schengen is the equivalent of visa free travel in the UK for EU citizens post-Brexit. If the former is a disaster, according to Leavers, surely the latter is too. Ergo, visas to travel in Europe post-Brexit. That will be fun and in no way economically damaging. Or, perhaps, visa free travel for Turks is being ever-so-slightly overegged as a problem.
No, it's not SO. And you know you are being disingenuous.
I'd argue it's unlikely that Italians and Greeks and Germans will be claiming asylum in the UK post Brexit. But it's quite possible that Kurds and Turks will claim asylum in Germany.
It's quite different.
They can claim asylum now. It's not as if desperate people are not already doing it in their tens of thousands. And we can stop them coming to the UK anyway. They'll still need visas to get here. It is you who is being disingenuous.
Sure, but Take control.
Leaving the EU will change nothing about Turkish citizens being able to travel to the UK. It is disingenuous, at best, to say otherwise.
I'm not saying that. I've not commented on it at all. So please leave off the personal attacks.
It is this comment of yours that I am responding to.
Visa free travel for Turks inside Schengen is the equivalent of visa free travel in the UK for EU citizens post-Brexit.
How on earth was that a personal attack? Blimey.
The issue is that Leave is claiming that giving Turks visa free travel inside Schengen will lead to many more of them settling inside the Schengen countries. That may well be the case. But if you believe that, you must also believe that giving EU citizens visa free travel to the UK post-Brexit will lead to the same thing.
As for asylum, the refugees currently fleeing to Europe don't have visas now and many have come through Turkey. Why haven't Turkisk Kurds already joined them? What's more, the issue is not being granted asylum, it's that claiming it gives you a right to stay until your case is dealt with and that even if you are turned down it's hard to remove you. How many current EU citizens might exploit that? Who knows, but there are plenty of persecuted minorities inside EU member states, and plenty who might claim to be persecuted. So, if visa free travel encouraging asylum seekers really is a concern, the only logical answer has to be visas.
There were advantages too in remaining Christian under the Ottomans, including exemptions from military service. The Ottomans were not big proseltisers as they found it convenient to have non-muslim subjects who paid more tax and trade in ways that Muslims were excluded from such as the payment of interest. It is why there were so few Muslims in Ottoman Europe despite centuries of occupation, except Bosnia and Albania. 20% of Ottoman citizens in 1914 were Christian.
The millet system worked surprisingly well but not everyone was keen on being excluded from senior posts, paying higher taxes, and in earlier days having their children forcibly adopted and converted.(Devşirme) "In this system children of the rural Christian populations of the Balkans—particularly Albanians, Bulgarians, Serbs, and northern Greeks—were conscripted before adolescence and were brought up as Muslims."
Most impressed by your knowledge here - is it your specialist subject?
No just something I have taken an interest in and read about.
Ataturk was amazingly successful in inventing Modern Turkey- and ruthless forcing a homogenous Turkish language and culture on 80 million people (which is why Constantinople was renamed Istanbul)
If you had called an Ottoman aristocrat a Turk he would have been quite insulted - a Turk was a low class peasant.
Incidentlally the star and crescent was the "flag" of the Eastern Empire which the Sultan adopted for his empire upon conquering it.
It's quite concerning to hear that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were right because of (1) war and (2) the greater good.
What kind of atrocities could be justified against Western children and civilians by terrorists from the Middle East on that basis? "They started it in Afghanistan and Iraq"? "Save hundreds of thousands of lives in a Middle Eastern war by taking hundreds in European capitals"? Terrible.
The funniest thing I've read on here is that Turkey should become secular. Yeah, and put the tooth fairy in charge.
Kemal Ataturk did secularize Turkish institutions*, including ending the caliphate, adopting western dress and the Roman alphabet. He was rather a fascist in many ways, but is still heavily respected there. A revival of Ataturkism is the best hope for a secularist Turkey, though a slightly more democratic version would be in keeping with the times.
*amongst many other things including killing my grandmothers uncle via his counterattack at Gallipoli.
The trend in the Islamic world seems to be away from secularisation and towards more Islamization and one can even see this in some of the younger generations within Muslim communities within Europe. It think it is deluded to think that we will get a secular democratic Turkey in the way we understand it any time soon.
Certainly that is the trend at present, particularly since the fall of the Communist bloc.
There is a considerable secularist faction in most Muslim countries and populations though, and not inconceivable that the tide will change back in that direction. Pretty unpleasant secularists like Assad, Mubarak or Saddam Hussain by and large, but not the existential threat that Islamism could be.
Another impact of the Tsar's defenestration was that Montenegro, which would likely have been protected by the Tsar as an ally, was shamefully allowed by the Allies to be absorbed by a greater Serbia.
In Vanished Kingdoms, there's a chapter on Montenegro, which was then ruled by a prince-bishop.
It's worth noting that Italy has had over 10k migrants arriving/delivered to their shores this week alone. That's 47k YTD.
Along with the violent fuel protests in France, bulldozing Greek refugee camps and pix of overloaded boats crossing the Med - the EU looks like a complete out of control mess.
Photo-ops of smooth suits at the G7 contrasts so strongly - it looks like fiddling with canapes whilst Rome burns.
Did you see Obama cuddling that Japanese man? My contempt for these people knows no bounds, jetting round the world at our expense as thousands are being raped, tortured and murdered by ISIS and others. Gesture politics, that's all it is, why don't they actually do something useful.
The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was horrific. A necessary evil, IMHO, but still evil.
It was the nature of war; a war that Japan brought on themselves. The bombings certainly saved many tens of thousands of allies lives - probably hundreds of thousands - and probably millions of Japanese ones given the state of near-famine the country was in in August 1945. They were certainly no worse than the Tokyo fire-bombing, which killed more people (not that anyone remembers that because it doesn't have political potency).
The decision to drop the bombs was the right one. As such, no apology is needed. We can, however, regret the losses that war brings, just as we can put past hostility behind us.
For sure. The Japanese High Command were seeking a way out of the War by August 1945, but their terms (retention of Korea, Formosa, and Manchuria) were quite unrealistic. The war would have gone on for months.
It's worth noting that Italy has had over 10k migrants arriving/delivered to their shores this week alone. That's 47k YTD.
Along with the violent fuel protests in France, bulldozing Greek refugee camps and pix of overloaded boats crossing the Med - the EU looks like a complete out of control mess.
Photo-ops of smooth suits at the G7 contrasts so strongly - it looks like fiddling with canapes whilst Rome burns.
Did you see Obama cuddling that Japanese man? My contempt for these people knows no bounds, jetting round the world at our expense as thousands are being raped, tortured and murdered by ISIS and others. Gesture politics, that's all it is, why don't they actually do something useful.
What like US and UK planes bombing IS and our troops help plan and train local forces for ground operations?
If only Dave had thought of that...
Yep, that sort of thing, useful things, instead of apologising for something that happened before he was born. Cameron was elected to govern, he is making a bloody awful job of it.
Interesting that the liberal luvvie set are rushing to his defence while traditional tories are disowning him.
Except you should be aware he IS doing those things?
So what THINGS has Cameron done since last May?
OK he's welcomed a few hundred thousand here but what other THINGS?
How about for starters taking a vote to Parliament to authorise the use of military force against IS in Syria? How about using said military force to tackle IS in both Syria and Iraq?
I.e. he has done exactly what you said he should but seem to think he hasn't for some bizarre reason. Maybe you were in a cave or under a rock when we had the vote over using force in Syria?
Not bad for a year's work, he bombed the fuck out of Syria.
Is that it?
To all those concerned. The RAF has carried out less than 50 sorties in Syria - that for the uninitiated - is less than 50 bomb loads in all the months since Cammo gave the go ahead to bomb Isil in Syria as well as Irak.
Must be a shortage of bombs somewhere. In the same months Russia carried outmore than 4.5K sorties.
The funniest thing I've read on here is that Turkey should become secular. Yeah, and put the tooth fairy in charge.
Kemal Ataturk did secularize Turkish institutions*, including ending the caliphate, adopting western dress and the Roman alphabet. He was rather a fascist in many ways, but is still heavily respected there. A revival of Ataturkism is the best hope for a secularist Turkey, though a slightly more democratic version would be in keeping with the times.
*amongst many other things including killing my grandmothers uncle via his counterattack at Gallipoli.
The trend in the Islamic world seems to be away from secularisation and towards more Islamization and one can even see this in some of the younger generations within Muslim communities within Europe. It think it is deluded to think that we will get a secular democratic Turkey in the way we understand it any time soon.
Agreed, which is why it is also a bit silly to argue that Turkey is likely to be an EU member state any time soon.
It's quite concerning to hear that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were right because of (1) war and (2) the greater good.
What kind of atrocities could be justified against Western children and civilians by terrorists from the Middle East on that basis? "They started it in Afghanistan and Iraq"? "Save hundreds of thousands of lives in a Middle Eastern war by taking hundreds in European capitals"? Terrible.
Surely war is all about weighing the greater good, and choosing the lesser evil?
Mr. Herdson, a debatable but good point about Trebizond. I'd argue it was related, though not a true successor [as the East was to the West]. Trebizond lingered briefly, it never flourished.
Damned shame Byzantium fell.
Haga Sophia is hugely impressive, but much less so as a museum than it would have been as a cathedral. I love the quote from the Russian emissaries who said they thought they'd died and gone to Heaven, when witnessing a service there.
As far as the Russian Orthodox Church is concerned Hagia Sophia is their Vatican.
The first Russian Tsar married the daughter of the last Roman Emperor who fell in 1453 and the Russians regard themselves as the continuation of the Eastern Roman Empire and Constantinople as their capital in exile. But for the Russian Revolution the Victorious Tsar would have been victoriously recrowned in Hagia Sophia after World War 1 as the allies had secretly agreed suring world war 1 that Istanbul and the surrounding area would go to Russia after defeat of the Ottomans, but it was voided by the revolution.
The recent Crimean eposide and near war between Russia and Turkey over the shot down plane in Syria has to be looked at in this context.
Which is why I referenced it in the leader. Turkey is not really that fussed about EU membership; it was always a bulwark in their anti-Russian policy, which is the primary driver of their foreign policy. NATO membership, on the other hand, is for them a matter of the first order.
It's quite concerning to hear that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were right because of (1) war and (2) the greater good.
What kind of atrocities could be justified against Western children and civilians by terrorists from the Middle East on that basis? "They started it in Afghanistan and Iraq"? "Save hundreds of thousands of lives in a Middle Eastern war by taking hundreds in European capitals"? Terrible.
There is a difference between two states at war with one having to make a Hobson's choice about the best way of ending that war and terrorists choosing to kill innocent civilians purely for the purpose of causing pain and suffering and terror.
It would have been better if the world had not been put in the position it was in in August 1945 but it was there because of the acts and decisions of many people, including the Japanese. One can feel for the innocents who suffered in Japan while recognising that the Japanese as a whole were responsible for the situation they found themselves in and bore a very heavy responsibility for the evil they unleashed on others.
It's worth noting that Italy has had over 10k migrants arriving/delivered to their shores this week alone. That's 47k YTD.
Along with the violent fuel protests in France, bulldozing Greek refugee camps and pix of overloaded boats crossing the Med - the EU looks like a complete out of control mess.
Photo-ops of smooth suits at the G7 contrasts so strongly - it looks like fiddling with canapes whilst Rome burns.
Did you see Obama cuddling that Japanese man? My contempt for these people knows no bounds, jetting round the world at our expense as thousands are being raped, tortured and murdered by ISIS and others. Gesture politics, that's all it is, why don't they actually do something useful.
The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was horrific. A necessary evil, IMHO, but still evil.
It was the nature of war; a war that Japan brought on themselves. The bombings certainly saved many tens of thousands of allies lives - probably hundreds of thousands - and probably millions of Japanese ones given the state of near-famine the country was in in August 1945. They were certainly no worse than the Tokyo fire-bombing, which killed more people (not that anyone remembers that because it doesn't have political potency).
The decision to drop the bombs was the right one. As such, no apology is needed. We can, however, regret the losses that war brings, just as we can put past hostility behind us.
For sure. The Japanese High Command were seeking a way out of the War by August 1945, but their terms (retention of Korea, Formosa, and Manchuria) were quite unrealistic. The war would have gone on for months.
There was also, I understand, quite likely to be slaughter of PoW’s had the war dragged on.
The funniest thing I've read on here is that Turkey should become secular. Yeah, and put the tooth fairy in charge.
Kemal Ataturk did secularize Turkish institutions*, including ending the caliphate, adopting western dress and the Roman alphabet. He was rather a fascist in many ways, but is still heavily respected there. A revival of Ataturkism is the best hope for a secularist Turkey, though a slightly more democratic version would be in keeping with the times.
*amongst many other things including killing my grandmothers uncle via his counterattack at Gallipoli.
The trend in the Islamic world seems to be away from secularisation and towards more Islamization and one can even see this in some of the younger generations within Muslim communities within Europe. It think it is deluded to think that we will get a secular democratic Turkey in the way we understand it any time soon.
Certainly that is the trend at present, particularly since the fall of the Communist bloc.
There is a considerable secularist faction in most Muslim countries and populations though, and not inconceivable that the tide will change back in that direction. Pretty unpleasant secularists like Assad, Mubarak or Saddam Hussain by and large, but not the existential threat that Islamism could be.
The EU and NATO made a huge mistake in not intervening far sooner in Bisnia. That failure did two things: (1) it helped build a narrative of the west not caring about Moslems; and (2) it began a trend of young Moslems going off to fight for Islam.
It's worth noting that Italy has had over 10k migrants arriving/delivered to their shores this week alone. That's 47k YTD.
Along with the violent fuel protests in France, bulldozing Greek refugee camps and pix of overloaded boats crossing the Med - the EU looks like a complete out of control mess.
Photo-ops of smooth suits at the G7 contrasts so strongly - it looks like fiddling with canapes whilst Rome burns.
Did you see Obama cuddling that Japanese man? My contempt for these people knows no bounds, jetting round the world at our expense as thousands are being raped, tortured and murdered by ISIS and others. Gesture politics, that's all it is, why don't they actually do something useful.
What like US and UK planes bombing IS and our troops help plan and train local forces for ground operations?
If only Dave had thought of that...
Yep, that sort of thing, useful things, instead of apologising for something that happened before he was born. Cameron was elected to govern, he is making a bloody awful job of it.
Interesting that the liberal luvvie set are rushing to his defence while traditional tories are disowning him.
Except you should be aware he IS doing those things?
So what THINGS has Cameron done since last May?
OK he's welcomed a few hundred thousand here but what other THINGS?
How about for starters taking a vote to Parliament to authorise the use of military force against IS in Syria? How about using said military force to tackle IS in both Syria and Iraq?
I.e. he has done exactly what you said he should but seem to think he hasn't for some bizarre reason. Maybe you were in a cave or under a rock when we had the vote over using force in Syria?
Not bad for a year's work, he bombed the fuck out of Syria.
Is that it?
To all those concerned. The RAF has carried out less than 50 sorties in Syria - that for the uninitiated - is less than 50 bomb loads in all the months since Cammo gave the go ahead to bomb Isil in Syria as well as Irak.
Must be a shortage of bombs somewhere. In the same months Russia carried outmore than 4.5K sorties.
What utter bollocks
Indeed. Quality not quantity.
We could carpet bomb Falluja but I wouldn't be impressed.
It's worth noting that Italy has had over 10k migrants arriving/delivered to their shores this week alone. That's 47k YTD.
Along with the violent fuel protests in France, bulldozing Greek refugee camps and pix of overloaded boats crossing the Med - the EU looks like a complete out of control mess.
Photo-ops of smooth suits at the G7 contrasts so strongly - it looks like fiddling with canapes whilst Rome burns.
Did you see Obama cuddling that Japanese man? My contempt for these people knows no bounds, jetting round the world at our expense as thousands are being raped, tortured and murdered by ISIS and others. Gesture politics, that's all it is, why don't they actually do something useful.
The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was horrific. A necessary evil, IMHO, but still evil.
Indeed. But the Japanese were not innocent victims. They had been perpetrating evil themselves on plenty of other countries for at least a decade before then.
As you sow so shall you reap.
The people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, ordinary Japanese/Korean civilians were innocent victims.
Once you get into the realm of total war with conscription the difference between service personnel and civilians becomes a bit blurred, doesn't it? Who is the innocent in this chain, the person who works at making guns, the person who has been forced by government decree in to maintaining guns, the person who has similarly been forced into firing guns? All three are necessary if that country is to kill the opposing forces and so win the war but only two are in uniform and one of those is a non-combatant.
I agree with Sherman, War is hell, and total war is probably the seventh circle under the pit. However if you kick one off then don't be surprised if the other side use whatever means they can to try and win. St Augustine of Hippo and St Thomas Aquinas were writing in a very different age when war was a very different thing to that experience in, say, WW2.
Visa free travel for Turks inside Schengen is the equivalent of visa free travel in the UK for EU citizens post-Brexit. If the former is a disaster, according to Leavers, surely the latter is too. Ergo, visas to travel in Europe post-Brexit. That will be fun and in no way economically damaging. Or, perhaps, visa free travel for Turks is being ever-so-slightly overegged as a problem.
No, it's not SO. And you know you are being disingenuous.
I'd argue it's unlikely that Italians and Greeks and Germans will be claiming asylum in the UK post Brexit. But it's quite possible that Kurds and Turks will claim asylum in Germany.
It's quite different.
They can claim asylum now. It's not as if desperate people are not already doing it in their tens of thousands. And we can stop them coming to the UK anyway. They'll still need visas to get here. It is you who is being disingenuous.
Sure, but it makes it a lot easier for them to get to Germany rather than risking their lives and a long walk through the Balkans.
And - for a period of time until they become German citizens - we can stop them coming to the UK.
The whole thing about Leaving is we can do deals when it makes sense for us to do deals and not when it doesn't. It's about the direction of travel more than anything else. Take control.
Leaving the EU will change nothing about Turkish citizens being able to travel to the UK. It is disingenuous, at best, to say otherwise.
I agree, Mr. Observer (which is doubtless a great relief to you) and I cannot understand why some people are getting so excited about the Turkish deal. It is probably the best way to deal with an appalling situation caused, in part, by Frau Merkel's stupidity. As far as the UK is concerned, in or out, it makes not a happeth of difference.
I am not sure that is true, without the enforcement of the ECJ, and outside the ECFR, we are more or less free to ignore the rulings of the ECHR even assuming we decide to remain inside the convention. The biggest problem we have with phony asylum seekers is our inability to eject them from the country after their appeal fails because they have used to time to meet someone in their local community and are able to make a claim under Article 8.
The absurdly generous application of Article 8, and I would assume the equivalent under the ECFR is one of our biggest problems in managing illegal migrants - no realistic chance of having to leave the country once they are inside.
To all those concerned. (see post at 10:40am) The RAF has carried out less than 50 sorties in Syria - that for the uninitiated - is less than 50 bomb loads in all the months since Cammo gave the go ahead to bomb Isil in Syria as well as Irak.
Must be a shortage of bombs somewhere. In the same months Russia carried out more than 4.5K sorties.
Get your facts right before spreading bollocks all over the place @SquareRoot.
British warplanes hit Isis targets in Syria just four times in five weeks Government statistics show a steep decline in air strikes since the start of the year
The funniest thing I've read on here is that Turkey should become secular. Yeah, and put the tooth fairy in charge.
Kemal Ataturk did secularize Turkish institutions*, including ending the caliphate, adopting western dress and the Roman alphabet. He was rather a fascist in many ways, but is still heavily respected there. A revival of Ataturkism is the best hope for a secularist Turkey, though a slightly more democratic version would be in keeping with the times.
*amongst many other things including killing my grandmothers uncle via his counterattack at Gallipoli.
The trend in the Islamic world seems to be away from secularisation and towards more Islamization and one can even see this in some of the younger generations within Muslim communities within Europe. It think it is deluded to think that we will get a secular democratic Turkey in the way we understand it any time soon.
Certainly that is the trend at present, particularly since the fall of the Communist bloc.
There is a considerable secularist faction in most Muslim countries and populations though, and not inconceivable that the tide will change back in that direction. Pretty unpleasant secularists like Assad, Mubarak or Saddam Hussain by and large, but not the existential threat that Islamism could be.
It's mixed - like all societies there are different forces, pulling in different directions. Take the world's most populous muslim nation - Indonesia - its founding constitution promotes a belief in 'god' but very deliberately does not specify 'which one'. Recently a Muslim minister banned the sale of alcohol in mini-marts - which the popularly elected Christian (and ethnic Chinese) mayor of Jakarta overturned. The overwhelming majority - of all faiths, just want to be left to get on with their lives - but that's the trouble with 'freedom' - it applies to religious bigots too......
Are you seriously comparing the "Economist" poll of polls (A detestable feature that OGH rightly condemns) and my venerable and much honoured ARSE.
You Sir are cad and a bounder and should be exiled to ConHome for a minimum period of fifty years or when Jezza becomes PM whichever is the sooner
Fifty years it is then ....
Both you and the poll of polls actually agree Remain will win just you suggest it will a a comfortable Remain victory, the poll of polls a narrow Remain victory, I think the latter more likely
Mr. Herdson, wasn't Trebizond brought back into the Eastern fold following the reclamation of the city?
Mr. Bedfordshire, never heard that bit about WWI before. Fascinating stuff.
Alas that Nicholas II's father only planned to groom him for power from a certain age, but died before he even started...
No, I'm pretty sure that Trebizond remained independent continually from 1204 until its final conquest by the Ottomans. For a while they continued to claim the Byzantine imperial crown but later let that lapse. IIRC, It was the only one of the successor states that wasn't brought back under the control of Constantinople before things all went wrong for it again.
Are you seriously comparing the "Economist" poll of polls (A detestable feature that OGH rightly condemns) and my venerable and much honoured ARSE.
You Sir are cad and a bounder and should be exiled to ConHome for a minimum period of fifty years or when Jezza becomes PM whichever is the sooner
Fifty years it is then ....
Your Arse was brilliant at the GE, but from what I recall it rather overestimated the No vote in the Scottish independence vote. Maybe it has a referendum modelling issue? ;-)
It's worth noting that Italy has had over 10k migrants arriving/delivered to their shores this week alone. That's 47k YTD.
Along with the violent fuel protests in France, bulldozing Greek refugee camps and pix of overloaded boats crossing the Med - the EU looks like a complete out of control mess.
Photo-ops of smooth suits at the G7 contrasts so strongly - it looks like fiddling with canapes whilst Rome burns.
Did you see Obama cuddling that Japanese man? My contempt for these people knows no bounds, jetting round the world at our expense as thousands are being raped, tortured and murdered by ISIS and others. Gesture politics, that's all it is, why don't they actually do something useful.
The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was horrific. A necessary evil, IMHO, but still evil.
Indeed. But the Japanese were not innocent victims. They had been perpetrating evil themselves on plenty of other countries for at least a decade before then.
As you sow so shall you reap.
The people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, ordinary Japanese/Korean civilians were innocent victims.
Once you get into the realm of total war with conscription the difference between service personnel and civilians becomes a bit blurred, doesn't it? Who is the innocent in this chain, the person who works at making guns, the person who has been forced by government decree in to maintaining guns, the person who has similarly been forced into firing guns? All three are necessary if that country is to kill the opposing forces and so win the war but only two are in uniform and one of those is a non-combatant.
I agree with Sherman, War is hell, and total war is probably the seventh circle under the pit. However if you kick one off then don't be surprised if the other side use whatever means they can to try and win. St Augustine of Hippo and St Thomas Aquinas were writing in a very different age when war was a very different thing to that experience in, say, WW2.
The funniest thing I've read on here is that Turkey should become secular. Yeah, and put the tooth fairy in charge.
Kemal Ataturk did secularize Turkish institutions*, including ending the caliphate, adopting western dress and the Roman alphabet. He was rather a fascist in many ways, but is still heavily respected there. A revival of Ataturkism is the best hope for a secularist Turkey, though a slightly more democratic version would be in keeping with the times.
*amongst many other things including killing my grandmothers uncle via his counterattack at Gallipoli.
The trend in the Islamic world seems to be away from secularisation and towards more Islamization and one can even see this in some of the younger generations within Muslim communities within Europe. It think it is deluded to think that we will get a secular democratic Turkey in the way we understand it any time soon.
Agreed, which is why it is also a bit silly to argue that Turkey is likely to be an EU member state any time soon.
Agree. The concerns I have re Turkey is how it is bullying Germany over what Germans can say about Erdogan. But this is not an EU referendum issue.
Both you and the poll of polls actually agree Remain will win just you suggest it will a a comfortable Remain victory, the poll of polls a narrow Remain victory, I think the latter more likely
The funniest thing I've read on here is that Turkey should become secular. Yeah, and put the tooth fairy in charge.
Kemal Ataturk did secularize Turkish institutions*, including ending the caliphate, adopting western dress and the Roman alphabet. He was rather a fascist in many ways, but is still heavily respected there. A revival of Ataturkism is the best hope for a secularist Turkey, though a slightly more democratic version would be in keeping with the times.
*amongst many other things including killing my grandmothers uncle via his counterattack at Gallipoli.
The trend in the Islamic world seems to be away from secularisation and towards more Islamization and one can even see this in some of the younger generations within Muslim communities within Europe. It think it is deluded to think that we will get a secular democratic Turkey in the way we understand it any time soon.
Agreed, which is why it is also a bit silly to argue that Turkey is likely to be an EU member state any time soon.
Not many people are arguing that, they are arguing that Turkey will be a defacto member of the EU, with most of the significant benefits, without actually being a member, most concerning of which would be a right to residence.
It's worth noting that Italy has had over 10k migrants arriving/delivered to their shores this week alone. That's 47k YTD.
Along with the violent fuel protests in France, bulldozing Greek refugee camps and pix of overloaded boats crossing the Med - the EU looks like a complete out of control mess.
Photo-ops of smooth suits at the G7 contrasts so strongly - it looks like fiddling with canapes whilst Rome burns.
Did you see Obama cuddling that Japanese man? My contempt for these people knows no bounds, jetting round the world at our expense as thousands are being raped, tortured and murdered by ISIS and others. Gesture politics, that's all it is, why don't they actually do something useful.
The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was horrific. A necessary evil, IMHO, but still evil.
Indeed. But the Japanese were not innocent victims. They had been perpetrating evil themselves on plenty of other countries for at least a decade before then.
As you sow so shall you reap.
The people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, ordinary Japanese/Korean civilians were innocent victims.
Once you get into the realm of total war with conscription the difference between service personnel and civilians becomes a bit blurred, doesn't it? Who is the innocent in this chain, the person who works at making guns, the person who has been forced by government decree in to maintaining guns, the person who has similarly been forced into firing guns? All three are necessary if that country is to kill the opposing forces and so win the war but only two are in uniform and one of those is a non-combatant.
I agree with Sherman, War is hell, and total war is probably the seventh circle under the pit. However if you kick one off then don't be surprised if the other side use whatever means they can to try and win. St Augustine of Hippo and St Thomas Aquinas were writing in a very different age when war was a very different thing to that experience in, say, WW2.
IMHO, Just War doctrines have held up very well over the centuries. Medieval warfare could be just as total as modern warfare (eg when cities were besieged).
Both you and the poll of polls actually agree Remain will win just you suggest it will a a comfortable Remain victory, the poll of polls a narrow Remain victory, I think the latter more likely
Tsk ....
60 years in ConHome ....
Oh yes, Mr. JackW. Back to the drawing board with you! Your ARSE is blowing an ill wind.
Your Arse was brilliant at the GE, but from what I recall it rather overestimated the No vote in the Scottish independence vote. Maybe it has a referendum modelling issue? ;-)
I had to issue my final McARSE forecast a month before polling but it was already picking up a trend for independence, although I concede that my likely final projection for the day would have been out by about 1.5 points.
To all those concerned. (see post at 10:40am) The RAF has carried out less than 50 sorties in Syria - that for the uninitiated - is less than 50 bomb loads in all the months since Cammo gave the go ahead to bomb Isil in Syria as well as Irak.
Must be a shortage of bombs somewhere. In the same months Russia carried out more than 4.5K sorties.
Get your facts right before spreading bollocks all over the place @SquareRoot.
British warplanes hit Isis targets in Syria just four times in five weeks Government statistics show a steep decline in air strikes since the start of the year
The funniest thing I've read on here is that Turkey should become secular. Yeah, and put the tooth fairy in charge.
Kemal Ataturk did secularize Turkish institutions*, including ending the caliphate, adopting western dress and the Roman alphabet. He was rather a fascist in many ways, but is still heavily respected there. A revival of Ataturkism is the best hope for a secularist Turkey, though a slightly more democratic version would be in keeping with the times.
*amongst many other things including killing my grandmothers uncle via his counterattack at Gallipoli.
The trend in the Islamic world seems to be away from secularisation and towards more Islamization and one can even see this in some of the younger generations within Muslim communities within Europe. It think it is deluded to think that we will get a secular democratic Turkey in the way we understand it any time soon.
Certainly that is the trend at present, particularly since the fall of the Communist bloc.
There is a considerable secularist faction in most Muslim countries and populations though, and not inconceivable that the tide will change back in that direction. Pretty unpleasant secularists like Assad, Mubarak or Saddam Hussain by and large, but not the existential threat that Islamism could be.
The EU and NATO made a huge mistake in not intervening far sooner in Bisnia. That failure did two things: (1) it helped build a narrative of the west not caring about Moslems; and (2) it began a trend of young Moslems going off to fight for Islam.
But despite the fact that the US did push for action to protect the Muslim population and eventually got their way they still get no credit from the Muslim world. So one is inclined to think that those seeking to justify young Muslims going off to fight pick only those events which justify what they want to do and ignore those facts which don't suit their narrative.
I am not sure that is true, without the enforcement of the ECJ, and outside the ECFR, we are more or less free to ignore the rulings of the ECHR even assuming we decide to remain inside the convention. The biggest problem we have with phony asylum seekers is our inability to eject them from the country after their appeal fails because they have used to time to meet someone in their local community and are able to make a claim under Article 8.
The absurdly generous application of Article 8, and I would assume the equivalent under the ECFR is one of our biggest problems in managing illegal migrants - no realistic chance of having to leave the country once they are inside.
Fair go, Mr. Indigo, and I agree with all of that, but it has nothing to do with the deal allowing Turks 90 day visa free access to the Schengen zone.
It's worth noting that Italy has had over 10k migrants arriving/delivered to their shores this week alone. That's 47k YTD.
Along with the violent fuel protests in France, bulldozing Greek refugee camps and pix of overloaded boats crossing the Med - the EU looks like a complete out of control mess.
Photo-ops of smooth suits at the G7 contrasts so strongly - it looks like fiddling with canapes whilst Rome burns.
Did you see Obama cuddling that Japanese man? My contempt for these people knows no bounds, jetting round the world at our expense as thousands are being raped, tortured and murdered by ISIS and others. Gesture politics, that's all it is, why don't they actually do something useful.
The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was horrific. A necessary evil, IMHO, but still evil.
The decision to drop the bombs was the right one. As such, no apology is needed. We can, however, regret the losses that war brings, just as we can put past hostility behind us.
Quite.
The essence of war is violence. Moderation in war is imbecility
It's worth noting that Italy has had over 10k migrants arriving/delivered to their shores this week alone. That's 47k YTD.
Along with the violent fuel protests in France, bulldozing Greek refugee camps and pix of overloaded boats crossing the Med - the EU looks like a complete out of control mess.
Photo-ops of smooth suits at the G7 contrasts so strongly - it looks like fiddling with canapes whilst Rome burns.
Did you see Obama cuddling that Japanese man? My contempt for these people knows no bounds, jetting round the world at our expense as thousands are being raped, tortured and murdered by ISIS and others. Gesture politics, that's all it is, why don't they actually do something useful.
The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was horrific. A necessary evil, IMHO, but still evil.
Indeed. But the Japanese were not innocent victims. They had been perpetrating evil themselves on plenty of other countries for at least a decade before then.
As you sow so shall you reap.
The people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, ordinary Japanese/Korean civilians were innocent victims.
Once you get into the realm of total war with conscription the difference between service personnel and civilians becomes a bit blurred, doesn't it? Who is the innocent in this chain, the person who works at making guns, the person who has been forced by government decree in to maintaining guns, the person who has similarly been forced into firing guns? All three are necessary if that country is to kill the opposing forces and so win the war but only two are in uniform and one of those is a non-combatant.
I agree with Sherman, War is hell, and total war is probably the seventh circle under the pit. However if you kick one off then don't be surprised if the other side use whatever means they can to try and win. St Augustine of Hippo and St Thomas Aquinas were writing in a very different age when war was a very different thing to that experience in, say, WW2.
The more perceptive of them knew what the consequences of Pearl Harbor might be from the start, even if they didn't know the specifics.
"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve"
To all those concerned. (see post at 10:40am) The RAF has carried out less than 50 sorties in Syria - that for the uninitiated - is less than 50 bomb loads in all the months since Cammo gave the go ahead to bomb Isil in Syria as well as Irak.
Must be a shortage of bombs somewhere. In the same months Russia carried out more than 4.5K sorties.
Get your facts right before spreading bollocks all over the place @SquareRoot.
British warplanes hit Isis targets in Syria just four times in five weeks Government statistics show a steep decline in air strikes since the start of the year
The funniest thing I've read on here is that Turkey should become secular. Yeah, and put the tooth fairy in charge.
Kemal Ataturk did secularize Turkish institutions*, including ending the caliphate, adopting western dress and the Roman alphabet. He was rather a fascist in many ways, but is still heavily respected there. A revival of Ataturkism is the best hope for a secularist Turkey, though a slightly more democratic version would be in keeping with the times.
*amongst many other things including killing my grandmothers uncle via his counterattack at Gallipoli.
The trend in the Islamic world seems to be away from secularisation and towards more Islamization and one can even see this in some of the younger generations within Muslim communities within Europe. It think it is deluded to think that we will get a secular democratic Turkey in the way we understand it any time soon.
Certainly that is the trend at present, particularly since the fall of the Communist bloc.
There is a considerable secularist faction in most Muslim countries and populations though, and not inconceivable that the tide will change back in that direction. Pretty unpleasant secularists like Assad, Mubarak or Saddam Hussain by and large, but not the existential threat that Islamism could be.
The EU and NATO made a huge mistake in not intervening far sooner in Bisnia. That failure did two things: (1) it helped build a narrative of the west not caring about Moslems; and (2) it began a trend of young Moslems going off to fight for Islam.
But despite the fact that the US did push for action to protect the Muslim population and eventually got their way they still get no credit from the Muslim world. So one is inclined to think that those seeking to justify young Muslims going off to fight pick only those events which justify what they want to do and ignore those facts which don't suit their narrative.
Not seeking to justify it in any way. Just saying that it came from somewhere and that if different decisions had been made in the past things may well have turned out differently. Standing by as tens of thousands of civilians were massacred and dispossessed in the heart of Europe turned out to be not only morally wrong, but also practically disastrous. We gave succour and an argument to the wicked. It was a mistake because wicked people behave wickedly.
It's worth noting that Italy has had over 10k migrants arriving/delivered to their shores this week alone. That's 47k YTD.
Along with the violent fuel protests in France, bulldozing Greek refugee camps and pix of overloaded boats crossing the Med - the EU looks like a complete out of control mess.
Photo-ops of smooth suits at the G7 contrasts so strongly - it looks like fiddling with canapes whilst Rome burns.
Did you see Obama cuddling that Japanese man? My contempt for these people knows no bounds, jetting round the world at our expense as thousands are being raped, tortured and murdered by ISIS and others. Gesture politics, that's all it is, why don't they actually do something useful.
The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was horrific. A necessary evil, IMHO, but still evil.
Indeed. But the Japanese were not innocent victims. They had been perpetrating evil themselves on plenty of other countries for at least a decade before then.
As you sow so shall you reap.
The people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, ordinary Japanese/Korean civilians were innocent victims.
Once you get into the realm of total war with conscription the difference between service personnel and civilians becomes a bit blurred, doesn't it? Who is the innocent in this chain, the person who works at making guns, the person who has been forced by government decree in to maintaining guns, the person who has similarly been forced into firing guns? All three are necessary if that country is to kill the opposing forces and so win the war but only two are in uniform and one of those is a non-combatant.
I agree with Sherman, War is hell, and total war is probably the seventh circle under the pit. However if you kick one off then don't be surprised if the other side use whatever means they can to try and win. St Augustine of Hippo and St Thomas Aquinas were writing in a very different age when war was a very different thing to that experience in, say, WW2.
IMHO, Just War doctrines have held up very well over the centuries. Medieval warfare could be just as total as modern warfare (eg when cities were besieged).
I'd love to debate Just War doctrines and the nature of warfare in the middle ages as compared to WW2. Unfortunately Herself now requires me to "do things" around the house and "She Who Must be Obeyed" must be obeyed, so I must sign off.
Play nicely all and thanks for some interesting conversation once again.
I am not sure that is true, without the enforcement of the ECJ, and outside the ECFR, we are more or less free to ignore the rulings of the ECHR even assuming we decide to remain inside the convention. The biggest problem we have with phony asylum seekers is our inability to eject them from the country after their appeal fails because they have used to time to meet someone in their local community and are able to make a claim under Article 8.
The absurdly generous application of Article 8, and I would assume the equivalent under the ECFR is one of our biggest problems in managing illegal migrants - no realistic chance of having to leave the country once they are inside.
Fair go, Mr. Indigo, and I agree with all of that, but it has nothing to do with the deal allowing Turks 90 day visa free access to the Schengen zone.
What I mean is I, and I would assume a fair chunk of the public, would be a lot less exercised about who we let in, if we could be sure of being able to throw them out again if they were phony, broke the law, or were involving in terrorism related activities, at the moment it is very hard to do that, and essentially impossible if they are an EU citizen.
The funniest thing I've read on here is that Turkey should become secular. Yeah, and put the tooth fairy in charge.
Kemal Ataturk did secularize Turkish institutions*, including ending the caliphate, adopting western dress and the Roman alphabet. He was rather a fascist in many ways, but is still heavily respected there. A revival of Ataturkism is the best hope for a secularist Turkey, though a slightly more democratic version would be in keeping with the times.
*amongst many other things including killing my grandmothers uncle via his counterattack at Gallipoli.
The trend in the Islamic world seems to be away from secularisation and towards more Islamization and one can even see this in some of the younger generations within Muslim communities within Europe. It think it is deluded to think that we will get a secular democratic Turkey in the way we understand it any time soon.
Certainly that is the trend at present, particularly since the fall of the Communist bloc.
There is a considerable secularist faction in most Muslim countries and populations though, and not inconceivable that the tide will change back in that direction. Pretty unpleasant secularists like Assad, Mubarak or Saddam Hussain by and large, but not the existential threat that Islamism could be.
The EU and NATO made a huge mistake in not intervening far sooner in Bisnia. That failure did two things: (1) it helped build a narrative of the west not caring about Moslems; and (2) it began a trend of young Moslems going off to fight for Islam.
But despite the fact that the US did push for action to protect the Muslim population and eventually got their way they still get no credit from the Muslim world. So one is inclined to think that those seeking to justify young Muslims going off to fight pick only those events which justify what they want to do and ignore those facts which don't suit their narrative.
Not seeking to justify it in any way. Just saying that it came from somewhere and that if different decisions had been made in the past things may well have turned out differently. Standing by as tens of thousands of civilians were massacred and dispossessed in the heart of Europe turned out to be not only morally wrong, but also practically disastrous. We gave succour and an argument to the wicked. It was a mistake because wicked people behave wickedly.
Agreed. Britain's role was particularly shameful. And as for Douglad Hurd's justifications for denying the Bosnians the arms to defend themselves .... Yuck!
It's worth noting that Italy has had over 10k migrants arriving/delivered to their shores this week alone. That's 47k YTD.
Along with the violent fuel protests in France, bulldozing Greek refugee camps and pix of overloaded boats crossing the Med - the EU looks like a complete out of control mess.
Photo-ops of smooth suits at the G7 contrasts so strongly - it looks like fiddling with canapes whilst Rome burns.
Did you see Obama cuddling that Japanese man? My contempt for these people knows no bounds, jetting round the world at our expense as thousands are being raped, tortured and murdered by ISIS and others. Gesture politics, that's all it is, why don't they actually do something useful.
The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was horrific. A necessary evil, IMHO, but still evil.
Indeed. But the Japanese were not innocent victims. They had been perpetrating evil themselves on plenty of other countries for at least a decade before then.
As you sow so shall you reap.
The people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, ordinary Japanese/Korean civilians were innocent victims.
Once you get into the realm of total war with conscription the difference between service personnel and civilians becomes a bit blurred, doesn't it? Who is the innocent in this chain, the person who works at making guns, the person who has been forced by government decree in to maintaining guns, the person who has similarly been forced into firing guns? All three are necessary if that country is to kill the opposing forces and so win the war but only two are in uniform and one of those is a non-combatant.
I agree with Sherman, War is hell, and total war is probably the seventh circle under the pit. However if you kick one off then don't be surprised if the other side use whatever means they can to try and win. St Augustine of Hippo and St Thomas Aquinas were writing in a very different age when war was a very different thing to that experience in, say, WW2.
IMHO, Just War doctrines have held up very well over the centuries. Medieval warfare could be just as total as modern warfare (eg when cities were besieged).
Having studied Just War Theory I reached the conclusion that the only consistent positions to hold are pacifism and total war. Anything in between is compromise and fudge, such as Churchill justifying the bombing of German cities.
Taking a position of non - aggression, but switching to total war (if necessary) if you are attacked would be my policy.
It's worth noting that Italy has had over 10k migrants arriving/delivered to their shores this week alone. That's 47k YTD.
Along with the violent fuel protests in France, bulldozing Greek refugee camps and pix of overloaded boats crossing the Med - the EU looks like a complete out of control mess.
Photo-ops of smooth suits at the G7 contrasts so strongly - it looks like fiddling with canapes whilst Rome burns.
Did you see Obama cuddling that Japanese man? My contempt for these people knows no bounds, jetting round the world at our expense as thousands are being raped, tortured and murdered by ISIS and others. Gesture politics, that's all it is, why don't they actually do something useful.
The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was horrific. A necessary evil, IMHO, but still evil.
Indeed. But the Japanese were not innocent victims. They had been perpetrating evil themselves on plenty of other countries for at least a decade before then.
As you sow so shall you reap.
The people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, ordinary Japanese/Korean civilians were innocent victims.
Once you get into the realm of total war with conscription the difference between service personnel and civilians becomes a bit blurred, doesn't it? Who is the innocent in this chain, the person who works at making guns, the person who has been forced by government decree in to maintaining guns, the person who has similarly been forced into firing guns? All three are necessary if that country is to kill the opposing forces and so win the war but only two are in uniform and one of those is a non-combatant.
I agree with Sherman, War is hell, and total war is probably the seventh circle under the pit. However if you kick one off then don't be surprised if the other side use whatever means they can to try and win. St Augustine of Hippo and St Thomas Aquinas were writing in a very different age when war was a very different thing to that experience in, say, WW2.
IMHO, Just War doctrines have held up very well over the centuries. Medieval warfare could be just as total as modern warfare (eg when cities were besieged).
Having studied Just War Theory I reached the conclusion that the only consistent positions to hold are pacifism and total war. Anything in between is compromise and fudge, such as Churchill justifying the bombing of German cities.
Taking a position of non - aggression, but switching to total war (if necessary) if you are attacked would be my policy.
Comments
How about using said military force to tackle IS in both Syria and Iraq?
I.e. he has done exactly what you said he should but seem to think he hasn't for some bizarre reason. Maybe you were in a cave or under a rock when we had the vote over using force in Syria?
The blokes a total fraud, I told you that years ago, he knows he's been found out which is why he paved the way pre GE.
And - for a period of time until they become German citizens - we can stop them coming to the UK.
The whole thing about Leaving is we can do deals when it makes sense for us to do deals and not when it doesn't. It's about the direction of travel more than anything else. Take control.
GOTCHA
This is reflected in the election results where Erdogan did very poorly in the west but very well in the midlands and east (except Kurdish Areas). Like the rest of Europe, western Turks have low birth rates and eastern Turks far higher birth rates
Turkish Election Results 2011 & 2015
http://66.media.tumblr.com/72208f166a16392b71143123cd913a57/tumblr_npsvkpErEO1rasnq9o1_500.jpg
Turkish Birth Rate
http://hetq.am/static/news/b/2012/10/19897.jpg
The maps , the election maps in particular, eerily reflect ottoman maps showing where there were greek and armnenian populations before the unpleasantness of the 20th Century.
http://www.snackable.fr/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/AsiaMinor1910.jpg?792ff3
What we think of as Turks, those who live in Istanbul and western coastal regions are in many cases essentially muslim Greeks. (and millions are also descended from ethnic turk Greek muslims who were expelled from Greece in the population exchanges of the 1920s
Indeed Ataturk himself was born in what is now Greece. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atatürk_Museum_(Thessaloniki)
Is that it?
*amongst many other things including killing my grandmothers uncle via his counterattack at Gallipoli.
Seems like you're the empty vessel here.
Williams was the most nuanced - said he was in favour of people being allowed to be rude about religion, but he had to say that moderate, liberal Muslims found it difficult when gratuitously obscene stuff about Mohammed was published - it made it harder for them to hold the line against fundamentalists.
The distinction that my friend and I felt wasn't made clearly enough was between what should be illegal (very little) and what should be considered nasty/poor taste (cartoons of Mohammed having sex etc.). It's possible to be 100% against intimidation or even murder of cartoonists without thereby saying that every cartoon is great stuff and ought to be published everywhere.
But although I think it can be considered a true successor of Rome - and ultimately, the last one - its fall can't be anything other than a postscript to the events of 1453.
I agree with you about Byzantium; the world might well be a very different, and better, place had it survived into the 20th century.
Mr. K, winter (testing) is coming.
Miss Plato, interesting comment on Istanbul etc.
As you sow so shall you reap.
The first Russian Tsar married the daughter of the last Roman Emperor who fell in 1453 and the Russians regard themselves as the continuation of the Eastern Roman Empire and Constantinople as their capital in exile. But for the Russian Revolution the Victorious Tsar would have been victoriously recrowned in Hagia Sophia after World War 1 as the allies had secretly agreed suring world war 1 that Istanbul and the surrounding area would go to Russia after defeat of the Ottomans, but it was voided by the revolution.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantinople_Agreement
The recent Crimean eposide and near war between Russia and Turkey over the shot down plane in Syria has to be looked at in this context.
The RAF has carried out less than 50 sorties in Syria - that for the uninitiated - is less than 50 bomb loads in all the months since Cammo gave the go ahead to bomb Isil in Syria as well as Irak.
Must be a shortage of bombs somewhere. In the same months Russia carried outmore than 4.5K sorties.
It is this comment of yours that I am responding to.
Visa free travel for Turks inside Schengen is the equivalent of visa free travel in the UK for EU citizens post-Brexit.
Compared to most churches or almost any temple of whatever denomination [esp in India] - they aren't in the same league.
Mr. Bedfordshire, never heard that bit about WWI before. Fascinating stuff.
Alas that Nicholas II's father only planned to groom him for power from a certain age, but died before he even started...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devşirme
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0081YHYHO/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1#productDescription_secondary_view_div_1464427565194
Not implausible as Trace and Constantinople were substantially ethnically different at the time.
The decision to drop the bombs was the right one. As such, no apology is needed. We can, however, regret the losses that war brings, just as we can put past hostility behind us.
People should just shut up about Magna Carta.
It was either that or face slaughter on a world war 1 scale mounting a full land invasion (and you could argue that many of the Japanese troops who would have then died would also have been innocent victims).
Then there is the Allied prisoners of war who would have all been slaughtered if the war had ended in much the way the war against Germany did but were saved only by the unexpected suddeness of the wars end.
The issue is that Leave is claiming that giving Turks visa free travel inside Schengen will lead to many more of them settling inside the Schengen countries. That may well be the case. But if you believe that, you must also believe that giving EU citizens visa free travel to the UK post-Brexit will lead to the same thing.
As for asylum, the refugees currently fleeing to Europe don't have visas now and many have come through Turkey. Why haven't Turkisk Kurds already joined them? What's more, the issue is not being granted asylum, it's that claiming it gives you a right to stay until your case is dealt with and that even if you are turned down it's hard to remove you. How many current EU citizens might exploit that? Who knows, but there are plenty of persecuted minorities inside EU member states, and plenty who might claim to be persecuted. So, if visa free travel encouraging asylum seekers really is a concern, the only logical answer has to be visas.
Or maybe it isn't really a genuine concern.
Ataturk was amazingly successful in inventing Modern Turkey- and ruthless forcing a homogenous Turkish language and culture on 80 million people (which is why Constantinople was renamed Istanbul)
If you had called an Ottoman aristocrat a Turk he would have been quite insulted - a Turk was a low class peasant.
Incidentlally the star and crescent was the "flag" of the Eastern Empire which the Sultan adopted for his empire upon conquering it.
Here is a first century Byzantium Coin:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/001-Byzantium-2.jpg
What kind of atrocities could be justified against Western children and civilians by terrorists from the Middle East on that basis? "They started it in Afghanistan and Iraq"? "Save hundreds of thousands of lives in a Middle Eastern war by taking hundreds in European capitals"? Terrible.
There is a considerable secularist faction in most Muslim countries and populations though, and not inconceivable that the tide will change back in that direction. Pretty unpleasant secularists like Assad, Mubarak or Saddam Hussain by and large, but not the existential threat that Islamism could be.
In Vanished Kingdoms, there's a chapter on Montenegro, which was then ruled by a prince-bishop.
Wrote a short piece on unorthodox systems of old government here:
http://thaddeusthesixth.blogspot.co.uk/2015/05/no-king-required.html
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/27/the-daily-scare-tactics-beggar-belief-theyre-not-working?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Tweet
You Sir are cad and a bounder and should be exiled to ConHome for a minimum period of fifty years or when Jezza becomes PM whichever is the sooner
Fifty years it is then ....
It would have been better if the world had not been put in the position it was in in August 1945 but it was there because of the acts and decisions of many people, including the Japanese. One can feel for the innocents who suffered in Japan while recognising that the Japanese as a whole were responsible for the situation they found themselves in and bore a very heavy responsibility for the evil they unleashed on others.
We could carpet bomb Falluja but I wouldn't be impressed.
I agree with Sherman, War is hell, and total war is probably the seventh circle under the pit. However if you kick one off then don't be surprised if the other side use whatever means they can to try and win. St Augustine of Hippo and St Thomas Aquinas were writing in a very different age when war was a very different thing to that experience in, say, WW2.
The absurdly generous application of Article 8, and I would assume the equivalent under the ECFR is one of our biggest problems in managing illegal migrants - no realistic chance of having to leave the country once they are inside.
The RAF has carried out less than 50 sorties in Syria - that for the uninitiated - is less than 50 bomb loads in all the months since Cammo gave the go ahead to bomb Isil in Syria as well as Irak.
Must be a shortage of bombs somewhere. In the same months Russia carried out more than 4.5K sorties.
What utter bollocks. @SquareRoot.
Get your facts right before spreading bollocks all over the place @SquareRoot.
British warplanes hit Isis targets in Syria just four times in five weeks
Government statistics show a steep decline in air strikes since the start of the year
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/uk-raf-planes-launch-four-airstrikes-in-five-weeks-on-isis-in-syria-a6987326.html
60 years in ConHome ....
The turnout projection was spot on.
Get your facts right before spreading bollocks all over the place @SquareRoot.
British warplanes hit Isis targets in Syria just four times in five weeks
Government statistics show a steep decline in air strikes since the start of the year
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/uk-raf-planes-launch-four-airstrikes-in-five-weeks-on-isis-in-syria-a6987326.html
Its the shortage of bombs that's bollocks and your suggestion and implication that the RAF isn't doing enough..
The essence of war is violence. Moderation in war is imbecility
Lord Fisher
Edited extra bit: just checked Twitter. Enjoyed the claims that Hitler was an isolationist who invented sovereignty
"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve"
Given the Iraqi army is advancing on Mosul and the Syrian army has recaptured Palmyra it looks like our air support is less needed now anyway
The Emperor’s New Clothes, by Donald Trump
Once upon a time there lived an emperor. Very strong guy! I knew him very well. Big supporter of mine.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2016/05/28/simon-cowell-is-the-latest-star-to-write-a-childrens-book-are-th/
Play nicely all and thanks for some interesting conversation once again.
Will set about writing the pre-qualifying piece.
Bloody odd season so far. Of the 9 tips so far, I've only got 2 right (though the most recent was 8). And there's the Verstappen bet last time.
Taking a position of non - aggression, but switching to total war (if necessary) if you are attacked would be my policy.