politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Great news for IN from ICM phone survey and for OUT from IC
Comments
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Or this article here:rcs1000 said:
While I'm sure the causes are various, the number of migrants coming across the Med has dramatically fallen. See:FrancisUrquhart said:Fewer than 400 have been sent back since EU-Ankara deal came in to effect
The Financial Times reports that some 8,500 people have arrived on Greek islands since the deal came into force, according to the country's migration co-ordination unit.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3593240/Fears-migrant-surge-Greece-fewer-400-sent-Turkey-new-deal-Athens-deems-vast-majority-deserving-asylum.html
What a joke. More money thrown at the problem and basically they are doing f##k all. It should be a ferry a day taking illegals back, not a one ferry total.
http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/regional.php
At its peak in October 2015, 221,000 migrants crossed the Med to Italy and Greece. Last month (April) it was 12,000. You can argue that's not enough, but it's still down 96% or so.
Has Europe solved its crisis? Refugee arrivals to Greece have dropped by 90%
http://flip.it/huN_e
It does rather confirm Antifrank's contention that calling a June rather than autumn referendum may well have been Daves big mistake.0 -
Lets hope the same holds true for the EU ref!surbiton said:
Sadly, for us Labour types, the GE2015 phone polls proved more accurate.OllyT said:
So to be included in an online poll you have to first register yourself with the polling company. Doesn't sound a very satisfactory way of producing a truly representative sample, which is borne out by your comments about insurgent parties being overrepresented in online polls across Europe.rcs1000 said:
They all work in much the same way; you can join the Ipsos-MORI panel here https://www.ipsos-mori.com/ourexpertise/researchtechniques/datacollection/online/onlinepanels/joinus.aspxRichard_Tyndall said:
I know yougov is a self selecting pool from which the company then picks at random but how do the other online firms work?DavidL said:The sad truth is that both phone polls and Internet polls are crap for different reasons. Phone polls cannot reach significant parts of the population and Internet polls are infested with unrepresentative nutters who actually care.
The skill and luck of a pollster is to turn this sows ear into a silk purse by judging how distorted their sample is and compensating vaguely correctly. Who is doing that better in the present case is really anyone's guess.
With the online/phone polls consistently showing different referendum results with a bit of luck the actual result will go someway to indicating which are the most reliable.0 -
That's where my focus was, I didn't even notice the story on the right.rcs1000 said:
Yeah, but tell me more about that chick on the left.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
My focus was on the leftGIN1138 said:0 -
The exits are here, here and here, Chancellor.....Casino_Royale said:0 -
The 'Good Health' article looks like it might have some good advice for Leave on the night of the vote.rcs1000 said:
Yeah, but tell me more about that chick on the left.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Who would ever have thought that Osborne, Balls, and Cable would do a threesome, all singing off the same hymn sheet for remain. These are extraordinary times0
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I don't think that's strictly true: the local elections gave us excellent pointers. However, two things conspired against UKIP:Sean_F said:
I think we've all been surprised to find out where UKIP's support is strongest.
1. UKIP was not able to corral resources efficiently. As I warned repeatedly pre-GE2015, they suffered badly from SDP disease.
2. There was anti-UKIP tactical voting. In Rochester, many Labour and LibDem voters chose to vote for the Conservative candidate to unseat Mark Reckless. (I admit, this may be Mark Reckless related rather than UKIP related.)0 -
If we left the EU, how much do you think would have to be paid in duty for our exports to the EU and how much duty do you think would be levied on their exports to us on WTO rules?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Once leave adopts the fair message of ETA membership and accepts free movement of labour they can make a positive case. Exit from the single market as Gove is seeking will be demolished in his debate on the 3rd June, so they only have just over 14 days to get their message togetherSunil_Prasannan said:
General Radek? Wasn't he the baddy in Air Force One?Sean_F said:
Radek Sikorski might have helped his cause, had he been less rude about the UK in the past.TheScreamingEagles said:Radek Sikorski, a former Polish foreign minister with longstanding ties to Britain, said he is "very worried" British voters could opt to leave the European Union, fearing it could weaken a political arrangement that has given Europe its longest-ever period of peace and prosperity.....
....Sikorski, who has also held the position of defense minister and speaker of parliament in Poland and is now a senior fellow at Harvard University, argued that a weaker EU would help Russia.
"There is no surprise that Russian media, Russian troll factories, Russian money is supporting Brexit," said Sikorski. "It makes sense that Russia would like to deal with Europe one-by-one and not with the European Union as a whole. That would strengthen Russia's negotiating position vis-a-vis every member state. What surprises me is that some people in smaller countries don't see that."
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/ap-interview-polish-foreign-minister-sees-brexit-dangers-391483990 -
What will be the point of complaining? We'll have cast ourselves into the superstate. We'll just have to shut up and let ourselves be devoured...Sean_F said:
If Remain wins, it's same old, same old. The EU constantly tries to centralise power, we constantly complain ineffectually.GIN1138 said:
Remain is going to win of course.BenedictWhite said:
Isn't this fun?FrancisUrquhart said:
So it could be leave just, remain just or a landslide win for remain....clear as mud.TheScreamingEagles said:ORB phone poll
Remain 55 (+4)
Leave 40 (-3)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/16/eu-referendum-51-per-cent-back-remain-as-sir-lynton-crosby-warns/?cid=sf26388159+sf26388159
The fun really starts from 24th May when we can sit back and wait for all Cameron and Osborne's lies about how we're in for motherhood and apple pie courtesy of their beloved EU blows up in their faces...
Won't make any difference to our fate (we'll be trapped forever in the USE) but at least we'll get to see Cameron, Osborne and the Tory Party generally, cast into oblivion.0 -
I think both of those a factor, but was surprised at the UKIP support in Sunderland, while Labour took Grimsby fairly easily for example.rcs1000 said:
I don't think that's strictly true: the local elections gave us excellent pointers. However, two things conspired against UKIP:Sean_F said:
I think we've all been surprised to find out where UKIP's support is strongest.
1. UKIP was not able to corral resources efficiently. As I warned repeatedly pre-GE2015, they suffered badly from SDP disease.
2. There was anti-UKIP tactical voting. In Rochester, many Labour and LibDem voters chose to vote for the Conservative candidate to unseat Mark Reckless. (I admit, this may be Mark Reckless related rather than UKIP related.)0 -
But as Plato would no doubt tell us, it's the trend that matters!rcs1000 said:
I have basically no confidence in ORB, as there is absolutely no way that only 5% of the population is undecided. (Although it's slightly more plausible than the 3% they had last time.)TheScreamingEagles said:ORB phone poll
Remain 55 (+4)
Leave 40 (-3)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/16/eu-referendum-51-per-cent-back-remain-as-sir-lynton-crosby-warns/?cid=sf26388159+sf263881590 -
There were some Tories who were really obsessed with defeating Mark Reckless.rcs1000 said:
I don't think that's strictly true: the local elections gave us excellent pointers. However, two things conspired against UKIP:Sean_F said:
I think we've all been surprised to find out where UKIP's support is strongest.
1. UKIP was not able to corral resources efficiently. As I warned repeatedly pre-GE2015, they suffered badly from SDP disease.
2. There was anti-UKIP tactical voting. In Rochester, many Labour and LibDem voters chose to vote for the Conservative candidate to unseat Mark Reckless. (I admit, this may be Mark Reckless related rather than UKIP related.)
Never understood the loathing of him0 -
Dave won't have to worry anymore about 50 letters. I imagine it will be far closer to 100.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Those are amongst all respondents.rcs1000 said:
I have basically no confidence in ORB, as there is absolutely no way that only 5% of the population is undecided. (Although it's slightly more plausible than the 3% they had last time.)TheScreamingEagles said:ORB phone poll
Remain 55 (+4)
Leave 40 (-3)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/16/eu-referendum-51-per-cent-back-remain-as-sir-lynton-crosby-warns/?cid=sf26388159+sf26388159
Amongst those certain to vote, the numbers are 53/47 to Remain (excluding undecideds) which isn't so bad, and in line with other polls.
However, the fundamentals underlying questions covered within that poll are not good for Leave.0 -
Where are all the posters who keep on posting the poll of polls average of the EURef?
They've gone quiet.0 -
Some of their previous polls had 0% undecided as they used some kind of forcing mechanism.rcs1000 said:
I have basically no confidence in ORB, as there is absolutely no way that only 5% of the population is undecided. (Although it's slightly more plausible than the 3% they had last time.)TheScreamingEagles said:ORB phone poll
Remain 55 (+4)
Leave 40 (-3)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/16/eu-referendum-51-per-cent-back-remain-as-sir-lynton-crosby-warns/?cid=sf26388159+sf26388159
I exclude them from my pointless number crunching.0 -
What happened to Mr "Wigan Pier" claim of Boris outrage disaster....perhaps should stick to talking nonsense about extent of government cuts.0
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Ugh! If I never had to see Osborne again it would be too soon.Big_G_NorthWales said:Who would ever have thought that Osborne, Balls, and Cable would do a threesome, all singing off the same hymn sheet for remain. These are extraordinary times
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Except the bloody thing wasn't soaring, it was keeping low through wooded valleys.... Grrrr!dr_spyn said:
https://twitter.com/pipkazan/status/732305419666886657MarqueeMark said:Today has mostly been spent not seeing a Lammergeier (a Bearded Vulture) on Dartmoor.
Not happy...0 -
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It's an irrelevancy, as there is no chance that there would tariffs levied on goods between the EU and the UK in the event of Brexit.BenedictWhite said:
If we left the EU, how much do you think would have to be paid in duty for our exports to the EU and how much duty do you think would be levied on their exports to us on WTO rules?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Once leave adopts the fair message of ETA membership and accepts free movement of labour they can make a positive case. Exit from the single market as Gove is seeking will be demolished in his debate on the 3rd June, so they only have just over 14 days to get their message togetherSunil_Prasannan said:
General Radek? Wasn't he the baddy in Air Force One?Sean_F said:
Radek Sikorski might have helped his cause, had he been less rude about the UK in the past.TheScreamingEagles said:Radek Sikorski, a former Polish foreign minister with longstanding ties to Britain, said he is "very worried" British voters could opt to leave the European Union, fearing it could weaken a political arrangement that has given Europe its longest-ever period of peace and prosperity.....
....Sikorski, who has also held the position of defense minister and speaker of parliament in Poland and is now a senior fellow at Harvard University, argued that a weaker EU would help Russia.
"There is no surprise that Russian media, Russian troll factories, Russian money is supporting Brexit," said Sikorski. "It makes sense that Russia would like to deal with Europe one-by-one and not with the European Union as a whole. That would strengthen Russia's negotiating position vis-a-vis every member state. What surprises me is that some people in smaller countries don't see that."
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/ap-interview-polish-foreign-minister-sees-brexit-dangers-391483990 -
Its the non-tarrif barriers, that are the real problem for a service based economy like ours.BenedictWhite said:
If we left the EU, how much do you think would have to be paid in duty for our exports to the EU and how much duty do you think would be levied on their exports to us on WTO rules?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Once leave adopts the fair message of ETA membership and accepts free movement of labour they can make a positive case. Exit from the single market as Gove is seeking will be demolished in his debate on the 3rd June, so they only have just over 14 days to get their message togetherSunil_Prasannan said:
General Radek? Wasn't he the baddy in Air Force One?Sean_F said:
Radek Sikorski might have helped his cause, had he been less rude about the UK in the past.TheScreamingEagles said:Radek Sikorski, a former Polish foreign minister with longstanding ties to Britain, said he is "very worried" British voters could opt to leave the European Union, fearing it could weaken a political arrangement that has given Europe its longest-ever period of peace and prosperity.....
....Sikorski, who has also held the position of defense minister and speaker of parliament in Poland and is now a senior fellow at Harvard University, argued that a weaker EU would help Russia.
"There is no surprise that Russian media, Russian troll factories, Russian money is supporting Brexit," said Sikorski. "It makes sense that Russia would like to deal with Europe one-by-one and not with the European Union as a whole. That would strengthen Russia's negotiating position vis-a-vis every member state. What surprises me is that some people in smaller countries don't see that."
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/ap-interview-polish-foreign-minister-sees-brexit-dangers-391483990 -
Perhaps they are waiting for Chestnut to explain how we have all misinterpreted the phone polls and that Leave are actually winning.TheScreamingEagles said:Where are all the posters who keep on posting the poll of polls average of the EURef?
They've gone quiet.0 -
Can I just stop you RIGHT THERE.Big_G_NorthWales said:Who would ever have thought that Osborne, Balls, and Cable would do a threesome
There isn't enough mind bleach in the world.....0 -
So we'd be in a free trade area with no migration? Hurrah!rcs1000 said:
It's an irrelevancy, as there is no chance that there would tariffs levied on goods between the EU and the UK in the event of Brexit.BenedictWhite said:
If we left the EU, how much do you think would have to be paid in duty for our exports to the EU and how much duty do you think would be levied on their exports to us on WTO rules?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Once leave adopts the fair message of ETA membership and accepts free movement of labour they can make a positive case. Exit from the single market as Gove is seeking will be demolished in his debate on the 3rd June, so they only have just over 14 days to get their message togetherSunil_Prasannan said:
General Radek? Wasn't he the baddy in Air Force One?Sean_F said:
Radek Sikorski might have helped his cause, had he been less rude about the UK in the past.TheScreamingEagles said:Radek Sikorski, a former Polish foreign minister with longstanding ties to Britain, said he is "very worried" British voters could opt to leave the European Union, fearing it could weaken a political arrangement that has given Europe its longest-ever period of peace and prosperity.....
....Sikorski, who has also held the position of defense minister and speaker of parliament in Poland and is now a senior fellow at Harvard University, argued that a weaker EU would help Russia.
"There is no surprise that Russian media, Russian troll factories, Russian money is supporting Brexit," said Sikorski. "It makes sense that Russia would like to deal with Europe one-by-one and not with the European Union as a whole. That would strengthen Russia's negotiating position vis-a-vis every member state. What surprises me is that some people in smaller countries don't see that."
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/ap-interview-polish-foreign-minister-sees-brexit-dangers-39148399
The answer is £4.6 billion on our exports to the EU and £8.9 billion on theirs to us.0 -
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The prospect of Cameron leaving ASAP and then (hopefully) Osborne's complete and total political evisceration and Tory Party itself being cast into oblivion, is the only thing that's going to make the next few weeks bearable.MP_SE said:
Dave won't have to worry anymore about 50 letters. I imagine it will be far closer to 100.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
The non tariff barriers are not going to change regardless any time this century. There are also not any tariffs on them as far as I can tell.foxinsoxuk said:
Its the non-tarrif barriers, that are the real problem for a service based economy like ours.BenedictWhite said:
If we left the EU, how much do you think would have to be paid in duty for our exports to the EU and how much duty do you think would be levied on their exports to us on WTO rules?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Once leave adopts the fair message of ETA membership and accepts free movement of labour they can make a positive case. Exit from the single market as Gove is seeking will be demolished in his debate on the 3rd June, so they only have just over 14 days to get their message togetherSunil_Prasannan said:
General Radek? Wasn't he the baddy in Air Force One?Sean_F said:
Radek Sikorski might have helped his cause, had he been less rude about the UK in the past.TheScreamingEagles said:Radek Sikorski, a former Polish foreign minister with longstanding ties to Britain, said he is "very worried" British voters could opt to leave the European Union, fearing it could weaken a political arrangement that has given Europe its longest-ever period of peace and prosperity.....
....Sikorski, who has also held the position of defense minister and speaker of parliament in Poland and is now a senior fellow at Harvard University, argued that a weaker EU would help Russia.
"There is no surprise that Russian media, Russian troll factories, Russian money is supporting Brexit," said Sikorski. "It makes sense that Russia would like to deal with Europe one-by-one and not with the European Union as a whole. That would strengthen Russia's negotiating position vis-a-vis every member state. What surprises me is that some people in smaller countries don't see that."
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/ap-interview-polish-foreign-minister-sees-brexit-dangers-391483990 -
Like someone is surprised?MP_SE said:
Dave won't have to worry anymore about 50 letters. I imagine it will be far closer to 100.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
It's consistent with the polling average.TheScreamingEagles said:Where are all the posters who keep on posting the poll of polls average of the EURef?
They've gone quiet.
A small Remain lead.0 -
The truth is that there has been remarkably little movement, either way, since the start of this campaign.Casino_Royale said:
Those are amongst all respondents.rcs1000 said:
I have basically no confidence in ORB, as there is absolutely no way that only 5% of the population is undecided. (Although it's slightly more plausible than the 3% they had last time.)TheScreamingEagles said:ORB phone poll
Remain 55 (+4)
Leave 40 (-3)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/16/eu-referendum-51-per-cent-back-remain-as-sir-lynton-crosby-warns/?cid=sf26388159+sf26388159
Amongst those certain to vote, the numbers are 53/47 to Remain (excluding undecideds) which isn't so bad, and in line with other polls.
However, the fundamentals underlying questions covered within that poll are not good for Leave.
Our best hopes are (1) that on-line polls are more accurate than phone; or (2) something happens in the EU that brings the issues into sharp focus.
With regards to 1, I'm not particularly optimistic. 2 offers a better chance, and a reflaring of the Greek crisis would seem to be the most likely 'bonus'.0 -
Maybe Angus was locked in the bathroom...TheScreamingEagles said:I hope it wasn't concurrently
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Yes it is Mr Farage's perfect result. Keeps Ukip in business while making life awkward for Dave & CoTheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Ultimately, removing non-tariff barriers means stripping countries of sovereignty. That is the very nature of them; free trade treaties like NAFTA and TTIP that lower NTBs constrain the ability of national governments to make policy as they see fit.BenedictWhite said:
The non tariff barriers are not going to change regardless any time this century. There are also not any tariffs on them as far as I can tell.foxinsoxuk said:
Its the non-tarrif barriers, that are the real problem for a service based economy like ours.BenedictWhite said:
If we left the EU, how much do you think would have to be paid in duty for our exports to the EU and how much duty do you think would be levied on their exports to us on WTO rules?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Once leave adopts the fair message of ETA membership and accepts free movement of labour they can make a positive case. Exit from the single market as Gove is seeking will be demolished in his debate on the 3rd June, so they only have just over 14 days to get their message togetherSunil_Prasannan said:
General Radek? Wasn't he the baddy in Air Force One?Sean_F said:
Radek Sikorski might have helped his cause, had he been less rude about the UK in the past.TheScreamingEagles said:Radek Sikorski, a former Polish foreign minister with longstanding ties to Britain, said he is "very worried" British voters could opt to leave the European Union, fearing it could weaken a political arrangement that has given Europe its longest-ever period of peace and prosperity.....
....Sikorski, who has also held the position of defense minister and speaker of parliament in Poland and is now a senior fellow at Harvard University, argued that a weaker EU would help Russia.
"There is no surprise that Russian media, Russian troll factories, Russian money is supporting Brexit," said Sikorski. "It makes sense that Russia would like to deal with Europe one-by-one and not with the European Union as a whole. That would strengthen Russia's negotiating position vis-a-vis every member state. What surprises me is that some people in smaller countries don't see that."
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/ap-interview-polish-foreign-minister-sees-brexit-dangers-39148399
Which do we want?0 -
Dr Palmer - Labour and Corbyn have got to get these Posh Boy Tories OUT in 2020. Is he up to it?NickPalmer said:
Like someone is surprised?MP_SE said:
Dave won't have to worry anymore about 50 letters. I imagine it will be far closer to 100.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
We want as much say in determining the global terms of trade as possible. The Denis Healey quote posted on here yesterday that said that pro-Europeans are imperialists with an inferiority complex was quite close to the bone.rcs1000 said:Ultimately, removing non-tariff barriers means stripping countries of sovereignty. That is the very nature of them; free trade treaties like NAFTA and TTIP that lower NTBs constrain the ability of national governments to make policy as they see fit.
Which do we want?
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What will be will be, and we will get what we deserve.rcs1000 said:
The truth is that there has been remarkably little movement, either way, since the start of this campaign.Casino_Royale said:
Those are amongst all respondents.rcs1000 said:
I have basically no confidence in ORB, as there is absolutely no way that only 5% of the population is undecided. (Although it's slightly more plausible than the 3% they had last time.)TheScreamingEagles said:ORB phone poll
Remain 55 (+4)
Leave 40 (-3)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/16/eu-referendum-51-per-cent-back-remain-as-sir-lynton-crosby-warns/?cid=sf26388159+sf26388159
Amongst those certain to vote, the numbers are 53/47 to Remain (excluding undecideds) which isn't so bad, and in line with other polls.
However, the fundamentals underlying questions covered within that poll are not good for Leave.
Our best hopes are (1) that on-line polls are more accurate than phone; or (2) something happens in the EU that brings the issues into sharp focus.
With regards to 1, I'm not particularly optimistic. 2 offers a better chance, and a reflaring of the Greek crisis would seem to be the most likely 'bonus'.
I'm not going to beat myself up about the result. I'm satisfied I'm doing (and will have done) everything I can to win it for Leave. So my conscience will be clear.
This was always going to be an extremely difficult fight to win.
I will satisfy myself with the fact that even though it might well be Remain by 5-10% they'll only have won it by threatening WWIII and economic armageddon.
And, still, no-one likes the EU.0 -
Which do we want? No idea. I only speak for me.rcs1000 said:
Ultimately, removing non-tariff barriers means stripping countries of sovereignty. That is the very nature of them; free trade treaties like NAFTA and TTIP that lower NTBs constrain the ability of national governments to make policy as they see fit.BenedictWhite said:
The non tariff barriers are not going to change regardless any time this century. There are also not any tariffs on them as far as I can tell.foxinsoxuk said:
Its the non-tarrif barriers, that are the real problem for a service based economy like ours.BenedictWhite said:
If we left the EU, how much do you think would have to be paid in duty for our exports to the EU and how much duty do you think would be levied on their exports to us on WTO rules?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Once leave adopts the fair message of ETA membership and accepts free movement of labour they can make a positive case. Exit from the single market as Gove is seeking will be demolished in his debate on the 3rd June, so they only have just over 14 days to get their message togetherSunil_Prasannan said:
General Radek? Wasn't he the baddy in Air Force One?Sean_F said:
Radek Sikorski might have helped his cause, had he been less rude about the UK in the past.TheScreamingEagles said:Radek Sikorski, a former Polish foreign minister with longstanding ties to Britain, said he is "very worried" British voters could opt to leave the European Union, fearing it could weaken a political arrangement that has given Europe its longest-ever period of peace and prosperity.....
....Sikorski, who has also held the position of defense minister and speaker of parliament in Poland and is now a senior fellow at Harvard University, argued that a weaker EU would help Russia.
"There is no surprise that Russian media, Russian troll factories, Russian money is supporting Brexit," said Sikorski. "It makes sense that Russia would like to deal with Europe one-by-one and not with the European Union as a whole. That would strengthen Russia's negotiating position vis-a-vis every member state. What surprises me is that some people in smaller countries don't see that."
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/ap-interview-polish-foreign-minister-sees-brexit-dangers-39148399
Which do we want?
However "non tariff barriers" sounds like a bad thing. Sneaky stuff to prevent free trade and all that sort of protectionist nonsense. That is until you look at them when they are actually about the right to decide what safety standards apply Halloween costumes for example so in that sense I am for free trade not TTIP type arrangements.0 -
What we need is a pan continental amalgamation of free trade areas committed to reducing non-tarrif barriers, with a supranational court system to back it up.rcs1000 said:
Ultimately, removing non-tariff barriers means stripping countries of sovereignty. That is the very nature of them; free trade treaties like NAFTA and TTIP that lower NTBs constrain the ability of national governments to make policy as they see fit.BenedictWhite said:
The non tariff barriers are not going to change regardless any time this century. There are also not any tariffs on them as far as I can tell.foxinsoxuk said:
Its the non-tarrif barriers, that are the real problem for a service based economy like ours.BenedictWhite said:
If we left the EU, how much do you think would have to be paid in duty for our exports to the EU and how much duty do you think would be levied on their exports to us on WTO rules?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Once leave adopts the fair message of ETA membership and accepts free movement of labour they can make a positive case. Exit from the single market as Gove is seeking will be demolished in his debate on the 3rd June, so they only have just over 14 days to get their message togetherSunil_Prasannan said:
General Radek? Wasn't he the baddy in Air Force One?Sean_F said:
Radek Sikorski might have helped his cause, had he been less rude about the UK in the past.TheScreamingEagles said:Radek Sikorski, a former Polish foreign minister with longstanding ties to Britain, said he is "very worried" British voters could opt to leave the European Union, fearing it could weaken a political arrangement that has given Europe its longest-ever period of peace and prosperity.....
....Sikorski, who has also held the position of defense minister and speaker of parliament in Poland and is now a senior fellow at Harvard University, argued that a weaker EU would help Russia.
"There is no surprise that Russian media, Russian troll factories, Russian money is supporting Brexit," said Sikorski. "It makes sense that Russia would like to deal with Europe one-by-one and not with the European Union as a whole. That would strengthen Russia's negotiating position vis-a-vis every member state. What surprises me is that some people in smaller countries don't see that."
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/ap-interview-polish-foreign-minister-sees-brexit-dangers-39148399
Which do we want?
If only someone would found such a Union in Europe.0 -
What an amazing coincidence! There used to be a chap - a very pleasant chap, though a Conservative - who used to post here on PB. You seem to have the exactly same name as he did.BenedictWhite said:She's been found safe and well.
Some of us suspected at times that he had a blog.
Are you in any way related?0 -
Dan Hannan has said tonight that he would NOT leave the single market. Gove has declared he will. This is becoming a farce and just shows complete disarray in leave.BenedictWhite said:
If we left the EU, how much do you think would have to be paid in duty for our exports to the EU and how much duty do you think would be levied on their exports to us on WTO rules?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Once leave adopts the fair message of ETA membership and accepts free movement of labour they can make a positive case. Exit from the single market as Gove is seeking will be demolished in his debate on the 3rd June, so they only have just over 14 days to get their message togetherSunil_Prasannan said:
General Radek? Wasn't he the baddy in Air Force One?Sean_F said:
Radek Sikorski might have helped his cause, had he been less rude about the UK in the past.TheScreamingEagles said:Radek Sikorski, a former Polish foreign minister with longstanding ties to Britain, said he is "very worried" British voters could opt to leave the European Union, fearing it could weaken a political arrangement that has given Europe its longest-ever period of peace and prosperity.....
....Sikorski, who has also held the position of defense minister and speaker of parliament in Poland and is now a senior fellow at Harvard University, argued that a weaker EU would help Russia.
"There is no surprise that Russian media, Russian troll factories, Russian money is supporting Brexit," said Sikorski. "It makes sense that Russia would like to deal with Europe one-by-one and not with the European Union as a whole. That would strengthen Russia's negotiating position vis-a-vis every member state. What surprises me is that some people in smaller countries don't see that."
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/ap-interview-polish-foreign-minister-sees-brexit-dangers-391483990 -
The headline figures from last month are almost identical:SeanT said:
OK that's a significant shift. The kind of thing Number 10 would have been expecting, I think, folliowing their WAR-krieg (yes yes, I know).TheScreamingEagles said:ORB phone poll
Remain 55 (+4)
Leave 40 (-3)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/16/eu-referendum-51-per-cent-back-remain-as-sir-lynton-crosby-warns/?cid=sf26388159+sf26388159
"Considering only those who say they will definitely vote, Remain’s vote share holds steady from last month at 51 per cent while Leave dips by a single point to 45 per cent (well within margin of error). "
TSE is quoting from all respondents, not all those certain to vote.0 -
I expected that response from someoneMarqueeMark said:
Can I just stop you RIGHT THERE.Big_G_NorthWales said:Who would ever have thought that Osborne, Balls, and Cable would do a threesome
There isn't enough mind bleach in the world.....0 -
Like most of this discussion: it's a bit more complicated than that.BenedictWhite said:
So we'd be in a free trade area with no migration? Hurrah!rcs1000 said:It's an irrelevancy, as there is no chance that there would tariffs levied on goods between the EU and the UK in the event of Brexit.
The answer is £4.6 billion on our exports to the EU and £8.9 billion on theirs to us.
Firstly, bear in mind that I am in favour of free movement of labour, albeit one where people paid for compulsory NHS health insurance. (Which would have the advantage of minimising bureaucracy, maximising government revenue, and not distorting price signals.)
With that said, my business is very dependent on the single market in financial services. This holds that if you - as a financial services firm - are regulated by one country's regulator, you can operate in all. For small fund management companies, such as my own, this is a massive positive. A very large portion of our business is selling to French and Swedish savers. (By contrast, to sell the Swiss or the Australians or the Canadians, we need to either open a local subsidiary or pay a local agent to provide regulatory cover, costing c. 30% of revenues.)
It's not solely about tariffs.0 -
Did you mean in this way related?PClipp said:
What an amazing coincidence! There used to be a chap - a very pleasant chap, though a Conservative - who used to post here on PB. You seem to have the exactly same name as he did.BenedictWhite said:She's been found safe and well.
Some of us suspected at times that he had a blog.
Are you in any way related?
http://aconservatives.blogspot.co.uk/
If so... Yes.0 -
The decision is leave or remain at the moment. Hannan isn't going to get free movement past the UK people for long. That said I do like Dan Hannan.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Dan Hannan has said tonight that he would NOT leave the single market. Gove has declared he will. This is becoming a farce and just shows complete disarray in leave.BenedictWhite said:
If we left the EU, how much do you think would have to be paid in duty for our exports to the EU and how much duty do you think would be levied on their exports to us on WTO rules?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Once leave adopts the fair message of ETA membership and accepts free movement of labour they can make a positive case. Exit from the single market as Gove is seeking will be demolished in his debate on the 3rd June, so they only have just over 14 days to get their message togetherSunil_Prasannan said:
General Radek? Wasn't he the baddy in Air Force One?Sean_F said:
Radek Sikorski might have helped his cause, had he been less rude about the UK in the past.TheScreamingEagles said:Radek Sikorski, a former Polish foreign minister with longstanding ties to Britain, said he is "very worried" British voters could opt to leave the European Union, fearing it could weaken a political arrangement that has given Europe its longest-ever period of peace and prosperity.....
....Sikorski, who has also held the position of defense minister and speaker of parliament in Poland and is now a senior fellow at Harvard University, argued that a weaker EU would help Russia.
"There is no surprise that Russian media, Russian troll factories, Russian money is supporting Brexit," said Sikorski. "It makes sense that Russia would like to deal with Europe one-by-one and not with the European Union as a whole. That would strengthen Russia's negotiating position vis-a-vis every member state. What surprises me is that some people in smaller countries don't see that."
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/ap-interview-polish-foreign-minister-sees-brexit-dangers-391483990 -
Fake Dave,I pray this sh!t is finished this year.MP_SE said:
Dave won't have to worry anymore about 50 letters. I imagine it will be far closer to 100.TheScreamingEagles said:
The establishment always wins,so if remain do win with the help of Government resources,my hope would be enough backbenchers telling him it's time to go after the referendum.0 -
Far, far worse than Heath. At least Heath was honest about his position and it was a view (however misguided) born out of WWII.SeanT said:
There are no words to describe my loathing for Cameron. He's worse than Heath.MP_SE said:
Dave won't have to worry anymore about 50 letters. I imagine it will be far closer to 100.TheScreamingEagles said:
Cameron is just a liar and a fake.0 -
Doubt he is worried about letters, he just wants to win and will be ruthless as he has shown over the years. He is standing down anywayMP_SE said:
Dave won't have to worry anymore about 50 letters. I imagine it will be far closer to 100.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
#GetCameronOutTykejohnno said:
Fake Dave,I pray this sh!t is finished this year.MP_SE said:
Dave won't have to worry anymore about 50 letters. I imagine it will be far closer to 100.TheScreamingEagles said:
The establishment always wins,so if remain do win with the help of Government resources,my hope would be enough backbenchers telling him it's time to go after the referendum.
#DestroyGeorgeOsborne0 -
Dartmoor is quite a big place, Mr Mark. How big was/is your Bearded Vulture? Does it specialise in any particular part of Dartmoor?MarqueeMark said:Today has mostly been spent not seeing a Lammergeier (a Bearded Vulture) on Dartmoor. Not happy...
0 -
The problem is that it's not as simple as that.BenedictWhite said:Which do we want? No idea. I only speak for me.
However "non tariff barriers" sounds like a bad thing. Sneaky stuff to prevent free trade and all that sort of protectionist nonsense. That is until you look at them when they are actually about the right to decide what safety standards apply Halloween costumes for example so in that sense I am for free trade not TTIP type arrangements.
Take Canada. The US and Canada entered NAFTA. Then provincial governments passed laws that prevented the sale of certain products in their states. Said products happened to be produced by US companies (seeds), and didn't affect Canadian companies.
Who's going to enter into a free trade agreement with you if they think you are likely to sneakily avoid it once its been signed?
That's why even EFTA has a Court (in EU member Luxembourg), and why NAFTA has ISDS tribunals. All these exist to confirm that countries are abiding by their treaty obligations.0 -
Now that is interesting.rcs1000 said:
Like most of this discussion: it's a bit more complicated than that.BenedictWhite said:
So we'd be in a free trade area with no migration? Hurrah!rcs1000 said:It's an irrelevancy, as there is no chance that there would tariffs levied on goods between the EU and the UK in the event of Brexit.
The answer is £4.6 billion on our exports to the EU and £8.9 billion on theirs to us.
Firstly, bear in mind that I am in favour of free movement of labour, albeit one where people paid for compulsory NHS health insurance. (Which would have the advantage of minimising bureaucracy, maximising government revenue, and not distorting price signals.)
With that said, my business is very dependent on the single market in financial services. This holds that if you - as a financial services firm - are regulated by one country's regulator, you can operate in all. For small fund management companies, such as my own, this is a massive positive. A very large portion of our business is selling to French and Swedish savers. (By contrast, to sell the Swiss or the Australians or the Canadians, we need to either open a local subsidiary or pay a local agent to provide regulatory cover, costing c. 30% of revenues.)
It's not solely about tariffs.
Can they buy from you in the UK though, rather than you sell to them?0 -
Yes, but there has to be a certain amount of sovereignty. In effect NAFTA over rides Canada.rcs1000 said:
The problem is that it's not as simple as that.BenedictWhite said:Which do we want? No idea. I only speak for me.
However "non tariff barriers" sounds like a bad thing. Sneaky stuff to prevent free trade and all that sort of protectionist nonsense. That is until you look at them when they are actually about the right to decide what safety standards apply Halloween costumes for example so in that sense I am for free trade not TTIP type arrangements.
Take Canada. The US and Canada entered NAFTA. Then provincial governments passed laws that prevented the sale of certain products in their states. Said products happened to be produced by US companies (seeds), and didn't affect Canadian companies.
Who's going to enter into a free trade agreement with you if they think you are likely to sneakily avoid it once its been signed?
That's why even EFTA has a Court (in EU member Luxembourg), and why NAFTA has ISDS tribunals. All these exist to confirm that countries are abiding by their treaty obligations.0 -
That's an interesting question; probably, is the answer. Although (taking a pessimistic, not-EFTA view) they would be quite within their rights to pass laws preventing the French versions of financial advisors from recommending us. And there are a whole other layer of questions that would need to be sorted via bilateral treaty - such as double taxation of dividend income and the like.BenedictWhite said:
Now that is interesting.rcs1000 said:
Like most of this discussion: it's a bit more complicated than that.BenedictWhite said:
So we'd be in a free trade area with no migration? Hurrah!rcs1000 said:It's an irrelevancy, as there is no chance that there would tariffs levied on goods between the EU and the UK in the event of Brexit.
The answer is £4.6 billion on our exports to the EU and £8.9 billion on theirs to us.
Firstly, bear in mind that I am in favour of free movement of labour, albeit one where people paid for compulsory NHS health insurance. (Which would have the advantage of minimising bureaucracy, maximising government revenue, and not distorting price signals.)
With that said, my business is very dependent on the single market in financial services. This holds that if you - as a financial services firm - are regulated by one country's regulator, you can operate in all. For small fund management companies, such as my own, this is a massive positive. A very large portion of our business is selling to French and Swedish savers. (By contrast, to sell the Swiss or the Australians or the Canadians, we need to either open a local subsidiary or pay a local agent to provide regulatory cover, costing c. 30% of revenues.)
It's not solely about tariffs.
Can they buy from you in the UK though, rather than you sell to them?0 -
I think people would pay good money to see Dave humiliated, and those are just the Conservatives !0
-
The Heir to Blair!!!GIN1138 said:0 -
I don´t know, Mr White. I never managed to track down his blog. But he was such a nice Conservative that at times I thought he was really a Lib Dem.BenedictWhite said:
Did you mean in this way related? http://aconservatives.blogspot.co.uk/ If so... Yes.PClipp said:
What an amazing coincidence! There used to be a chap - a very pleasant chap, though a Conservative - who used to post here on PB. You seem to have the exactly same name as he did. Some of us suspected at times that he had a blog. Are you in any way related?BenedictWhite said:She's been found safe and well.
0 -
Remain up to 76% over on Betfair0
-
Well, there is the internet for sales. Plenty in the UK bought Icelandic investments after all. As for double taxation there are already treaties on those.rcs1000 said:
That's an interesting question; probably, is the answer. Although (taking a pessimistic, not-EFTA view) they would be quite within their rights to pass laws preventing the French versions of financial advisors from recommending us. And there are a whole other layer of questions that would need to be sorted via bilateral treaty - such as double taxation of dividend income and the like.BenedictWhite said:
Now that is interesting.rcs1000 said:
Like most of this discussion: it's a bit more complicated than that.BenedictWhite said:
So we'd be in a free trade area with no migration? Hurrah!rcs1000 said:It's an irrelevancy, as there is no chance that there would tariffs levied on goods between the EU and the UK in the event of Brexit.
The answer is £4.6 billion on our exports to the EU and £8.9 billion on theirs to us.
Firstly, bear in mind that I am in favour of free movement of labour, albeit one where people paid for compulsory NHS health insurance. (Which would have the advantage of minimising bureaucracy, maximising government revenue, and not distorting price signals.)
With that said, my business is very dependent on the single market in financial services. This holds that if you - as a financial services firm - are regulated by one country's regulator, you can operate in all. For small fund management companies, such as my own, this is a massive positive. A very large portion of our business is selling to French and Swedish savers. (By contrast, to sell the Swiss or the Australians or the Canadians, we need to either open a local subsidiary or pay a local agent to provide regulatory cover, costing c. 30% of revenues.)
It's not solely about tariffs.
Can they buy from you in the UK though, rather than you sell to them?0 -
So you decide to leave and hope no one notices that Dan Hannan and Michael Gove, the two big beasts of leave, are at loggerheads with each other. How on earth does Gove explain that at his TV debate on the 3rd June , because he will be askedBenedictWhite said:
The decision is leave or remain at the moment. Hannan isn't going to get free movement past the UK people for long. That said I do like Dan Hannan.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Dan Hannan has said tonight that he would NOT leave the single market. Gove has declared he will. This is becoming a farce and just shows complete disarray in leave.BenedictWhite said:
If we left the EU, how much do you think would have to be paid in duty for our exports to the EU and how much duty do you think would be levied on their exports to us on WTO rules?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Once leave adopts the fair message of ETA membership and accepts free movement of labour they can make a positive case. Exit from the single market as Gove is seeking will be demolished in his debate on the 3rd June, so they only have just over 14 days to get their message togetherSunil_Prasannan said:
General Radek? Wasn't he the baddy in Air Force One?Sean_F said:
Radek Sikorski might have helped his cause, had he been less rude about the UK in the past.TheScreamingEagles said:Radek Sikorski, a former Polish foreign minister with longstanding ties to Britain, said he is "very worried" British voters could opt to leave the European Union, fearing it could weaken a political arrangement that has given Europe its longest-ever period of peace and prosperity.....
....Sikorski, who has also held the position of defense minister and speaker of parliament in Poland and is now a senior fellow at Harvard University, argued that a weaker EU would help Russia.
"There is no surprise that Russian media, Russian troll factories, Russian money is supporting Brexit," said Sikorski. "It makes sense that Russia would like to deal with Europe one-by-one and not with the European Union as a whole. That would strengthen Russia's negotiating position vis-a-vis every member state. What surprises me is that some people in smaller countries don't see that."
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/ap-interview-polish-foreign-minister-sees-brexit-dangers-391483990 -
Right now, I am one of them.Pulpstar said:I think people would pay good money to see Dave humiliated, and those are just the Conservatives !
0 -
And just as Labour has been cast into the political wilderness, so to will the Conservatives. Their self-loathing and shame over this grubby referendum will mirror Labours over Iraq.SeanT said:
Yes. I first said on here months ago that Cameron would become the Tory Blair, loathed with a passion by his own party. I see my thesis has been taken up.GIN1138 said:
Far, far worse than Heath. At least Heath was honest about his position and it was a view (however misguided) born out of WWII.SeanT said:
There are no words to describe my loathing for Cameron. He's worse than Heath.MP_SE said:
Dave won't have to worry anymore about 50 letters. I imagine it will be far closer to 100.TheScreamingEagles said:
Cameron is just a liar and a fake.
He will become the lightning conductor for all the Tory shame and self hatred that will bubble over - once we have voted IN. He will be the symbol of the GREAT LIE that was told to the British people, etc etc. And as the EU comes after more of our sovereignty, which it will (because it always does) the anger at Cameron will only grow.
He'll win his vote. But then he can look forward to a lifetime of contumely, poured over his silly pink head.
The seeds for the Tories exit from power for a very long time have been sowed. The clock is ticking, just a matter of when time runs out.0 -
Robert -
Ultimately, removing non-tariff barriers means stripping countries of sovereignty. That is the very nature of them; free trade treaties like NAFTA and TTIP that lower NTBs constrain the ability of national governments to make policy as they see fit.
--------
I'm struggling a bit with this line of reasoning, Robert.
Presumably you could say the same thing about **any** trade restriction, be it tariffs, quotas, anti-dumping moves, regulatory barriers etc etc.
0 -
What victory?SeanT said:
Enjoy your victory, traitor.TheScreamingEagles said:Remain up to 76% over on Betfair
A single vote has yet to be cast.
The one thing I hope we all learned from last year was hubris is not a good look before the results come in.0 -
Iceland is a member of EFTA and Icesave and the like were allowed to sell into the UK as they were "regulated" by the Icelandic version of the FSA. (Which was like the FSA, only without the whole "making sure the banks were vaguely solvent" element...)BenedictWhite said:
Well, there is the internet for sales. Plenty in the UK bought Icelandic investments after all. As for double taxation there are already treaties on those.rcs1000 said:
That's an interesting question; probably, is the answer. Although (taking a pessimistic, not-EFTA view) they would be quite within their rights to pass laws preventing the French versions of financial advisors from recommending us. And there are a whole other layer of questions that would need to be sorted via bilateral treaty - such as double taxation of dividend income and the like.BenedictWhite said:
Now that is interesting.rcs1000 said:
Like most of this discussion: it's a bit more complicated than that.BenedictWhite said:
So we'd be in a free trade area with no migration? Hurrah!rcs1000 said:It's an irrelevancy, as there is no chance that there would tariffs levied on goods between the EU and the UK in the event of Brexit.
The answer is £4.6 billion on our exports to the EU and £8.9 billion on theirs to us.
Firstly, bear in mind that I am in favour of free movement of labour, albeit one where people paid for compulsory NHS health insurance. (Which would have the advantage of minimising bureaucracy, maximising government revenue, and not distorting price signals.)
With that said, my business is very dependent on the single market in financial services. This holds that if you - as a financial services firm - are regulated by one country's regulator, you can operate in all. For small fund management companies, such as my own, this is a massive positive. A very large portion of our business is selling to French and Swedish savers. (By contrast, to sell the Swiss or the Australians or the Canadians, we need to either open a local subsidiary or pay a local agent to provide regulatory cover, costing c. 30% of revenues.)
It's not solely about tariffs.
Can they buy from you in the UK though, rather than you sell to them?0 -
Now you're just trying to start a fight.PClipp said:
I don´t know, Mr White. I never managed to track down his blog. But he was such a nice Conservative that at times I thought he was really a Lib Dem.BenedictWhite said:
Did you mean in this way related? http://aconservatives.blogspot.co.uk/ If so... Yes.PClipp said:
What an amazing coincidence! There used to be a chap - a very pleasant chap, though a Conservative - who used to post here on PB. You seem to have the exactly same name as he did. Some of us suspected at times that he had a blog. Are you in any way related?BenedictWhite said:She's been found safe and well.
Talking of how the fight started, I was in the supermarket the other day, when I bumped into and knocked down a gentleman of diminished stature. He got back up, looked me in the eye and said "I'm not happy!" so I said "Well, which one are you then?" and that is how the fight started.0 -
It depends how comprehensive the defeat is.SeanT said:
Yes. I first said on here months ago that Cameron would become the Tory Blair, loathed with a passion by his own party. I see my thesis has been taken up.GIN1138 said:
Far, far worse than Heath. At least Heath was honest about his position and it was a view (however misguided) born out of WWII.SeanT said:
There are no words to describe my loathing for Cameron. He's worse than Heath.MP_SE said:
Dave won't have to worry anymore about 50 letters. I imagine it will be far closer to 100.TheScreamingEagles said:
Cameron is just a liar and a fake.
He will become the lightning conductor for all the Tory shame and self hatred that will bubble over - once we have voted IN. He will be the symbol of the GREAT LIE that was told to the British people, etc etc. And as the EU comes after more of our sovereignty, which it will (because it always does) the anger at Cameron will only grow.
He'll win his vote. But then he can look forward to a lifetime of contumely, poured over his silly pink head.
I see a direct line between the Conservatives who cheered when Chris Patten lost his seat, the gang of Redwood, Gorman, Cash, IDS et al who rendered the party incapable of opposing the rise of Blair and Brown, and the present lynch mob out for Cameron's blood today.
If Cameron goes down, the long project to rescue the natural party of government from the grip of an ideological virus will go down too. With Labour led by Corbyn and the Lib Dems in disarray the country can ill afford such a train of events.
Cameron has to win and win big or our politics will take a dark and depressing turn.0 -
Polling for the Camerendum not looking good then?0
-
It isn't. The exit poll shocked every one and it was wildly out as well underestimating Conservative support.TheScreamingEagles said:
What victory?SeanT said:
Enjoy your victory, traitor.TheScreamingEagles said:Remain up to 76% over on Betfair
A single vote has yet to be cast.
The one thing I hope we all learned from last year was hubris is not a good look before the results come in.0 -
You mean like this:Scott_P said:Chortle
@steve_hawkes: Lynton Crosby says Vote Leave should spend less time worrying about TV debates - and more time finding/delivering a clearer/simpler message
https://twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/7312407572275732480 -
I was thinking ofBenedictWhite said:
It isn't. The exit poll shocked every one and it was wildly out as well underestimating Conservative support.TheScreamingEagles said:
What victory?SeanT said:
Enjoy your victory, traitor.TheScreamingEagles said:Remain up to 76% over on Betfair
A single vote has yet to be cast.
The one thing I hope we all learned from last year was hubris is not a good look before the results come in.
'The Day The Polls Turned'0 -
It's not over till the Fat Liverpool Fan singsTheScreamingEagles said:
What victory?SeanT said:
Enjoy your victory, traitor.TheScreamingEagles said:Remain up to 76% over on Betfair
A single vote has yet to be cast.
The one thing I hope we all learned from last year was hubris is not a good look before the results come in.
0 -
Sorry, the Tories will be out of power for a generation (maybe longer) very shortly. Its no more than they deserve.williamglenn said:
It depends how comprehensive the defeat is.SeanT said:
Yes. I first said on here months ago that Cameron would become the Tory Blair, loathed with a passion by his own party. I see my thesis has been taken up.GIN1138 said:
Far, far worse than Heath. At least Heath was honest about his position and it was a view (however misguided) born out of WWII.SeanT said:
There are no words to describe my loathing for Cameron. He's worse than Heath.MP_SE said:
Dave won't have to worry anymore about 50 letters. I imagine it will be far closer to 100.TheScreamingEagles said:
Cameron is just a liar and a fake.
He will become the lightning conductor for all the Tory shame and self hatred that will bubble over - once we have voted IN. He will be the symbol of the GREAT LIE that was told to the British people, etc etc. And as the EU comes after more of our sovereignty, which it will (because it always does) the anger at Cameron will only grow.
He'll win his vote. But then he can look forward to a lifetime of contumely, poured over his silly pink head.
I see a direct line between the Conservatives who cheered when Chris Patten lost his seat, the gang of Redwood, Gorman, Cash, IDS et al who rendered the party incapable of opposing the rise of Blair and Brown, and the present lynch mob out for Cameron's blood today.
If Cameron goes down, the long project to rescue the natural party of government from the grip of an ideological virus will go down too. With Labour led by Corbyn and the Lib Dems in disarray the country can ill afford such a train of events.0 -
Iceland is a member of EFTA and Icesave and the like were allowed to sell into the UK as they were "regulated" by the Icelandic version of the FSA. (Which was like the FSA, only without the whole "making sure the banks were vaguely solvent" element...)rcs1000 said:
Well, there is the internet for sales. Plenty in the UK bought Icelandic investments after all. As for double taxation there are already treaties on those.BenedictWhite said:
That's an interesting question; probably, is the answer. Although (taking a pessimistic, not-EFTA view) they would be quite within their rights to pass laws preventing the French versions of financial advisors from recommending us. And there are a whole other layer of questions that would need to be sorted via bilateral treaty - such as double taxation of dividend income and the like.rcs1000 said:
Now that is interesting.BenedictWhite said:
Like most of this discussion: it's a bit more complicated than that.
Firstly, bear in mind that I am in favour of free movement of labour, albeit one where people paid for compulsory NHS health insurance. (Which would have the advantage of minimising bureaucracy, maximising government revenue, and not distorting price signals.)
With that said, my business is very dependent on the single market in financial services. This holds that if you - as a financial services firm - are regulated by one country's regulator, you can operate in all. For small fund management companies, such as my own, this is a massive positive. A very large portion of our business is selling to French and Swedish savers. (By contrast, to sell the Swiss or the Australians or the Canadians, we need to either open a local subsidiary or pay a local agent to provide regulatory cover, costing c. 30% of revenues.)
It's not solely about tariffs.
Can they buy from you in the UK though, rather than you sell to them?
But they neither pay of have free movement do they?0 -
Everyone's going to vote Labour for 25 years? Really?GIN1138 said:
Sorry, the Tories will be out of power for a generation (maybe longer) very shortly. Its no more than they deserve.williamglenn said:
It depends how comprehensive the defeat is.SeanT said:
Yes. I first said on here months ago that Cameron would become the Tory Blair, loathed with a passion by his own party. I see my thesis has been taken up.GIN1138 said:
Far, far worse than Heath. At least Heath was honest about his position and it was a view (however misguided) born out of WWII.SeanT said:
There are no words to describe my loathing for Cameron. He's worse than Heath.MP_SE said:
Dave won't have to worry anymore about 50 letters. I imagine it will be far closer to 100.TheScreamingEagles said:
Cameron is just a liar and a fake.
He will become the lightning conductor for all the Tory shame and self hatred that will bubble over - once we have voted IN. He will be the symbol of the GREAT LIE that was told to the British people, etc etc. And as the EU comes after more of our sovereignty, which it will (because it always does) the anger at Cameron will only grow.
He'll win his vote. But then he can look forward to a lifetime of contumely, poured over his silly pink head.
I see a direct line between the Conservatives who cheered when Chris Patten lost his seat, the gang of Redwood, Gorman, Cash, IDS et al who rendered the party incapable of opposing the rise of Blair and Brown, and the present lynch mob out for Cameron's blood today.
If Cameron goes down, the long project to rescue the natural party of government from the grip of an ideological virus will go down too. With Labour led by Corbyn and the Lib Dems in disarray the country can ill afford such a train of events.0 -
And if leave win?williamglenn said:
It depends how comprehensive the defeat is.SeanT said:
Yes. I first said on here months ago that Cameron would become the Tory Blair, loathed with a passion by his own party. I see my thesis has been taken up.GIN1138 said:
Far, far worse than Heath. At least Heath was honest about his position and it was a view (however misguided) born out of WWII.SeanT said:
There are no words to describe my loathing for Cameron. He's worse than Heath.MP_SE said:
Dave won't have to worry anymore about 50 letters. I imagine it will be far closer to 100.TheScreamingEagles said:
Cameron is just a liar and a fake.
He will become the lightning conductor for all the Tory shame and self hatred that will bubble over - once we have voted IN. He will be the symbol of the GREAT LIE that was told to the British people, etc etc. And as the EU comes after more of our sovereignty, which it will (because it always does) the anger at Cameron will only grow.
He'll win his vote. But then he can look forward to a lifetime of contumely, poured over his silly pink head.
I see a direct line between the Conservatives who cheered when Chris Patten lost his seat, the gang of Redwood, Gorman, Cash, IDS et al who rendered the party incapable of opposing the rise of Blair and Brown, and the present lynch mob out for Cameron's blood today.
If Cameron goes down, the long project to rescue the natural party of government from the grip of an ideological virus will go down too. With Labour led by Corbyn and the Lib Dems in disarray the country can ill afford such a train of events.
Cameron has to win and win big or our politics will take a dark and depressing turn.0 -
I have taken my wife to York today for three days to celebrate our 52nd anniversary. I have not been on line all day but when I log on tonight it seems as if the whole world has fallen in on leave with the bitterest of language and hostility to David Cameron and remain. As far as I can tell there have been two goodish polls for remain and one for leave. It is far from over as I can see but why are leave waving the white flagGIN1138 said:
And just as Labour has been cast into the political wilderness, so to will the Conservatives. Their self-loathing and shame over this grubby referendum will mirror Labours over Iraq.SeanT said:
Yes. I first said on here months ago that Cameron would become the Tory Blair, loathed with a passion by his own party. I see my thesis has been taken up.GIN1138 said:
Far, far worse than Heath. At least Heath was honest about his position and it was a view (however misguided) born out of WWII.SeanT said:
There are no words to describe my loathing for Cameron. He's worse than Heath.MP_SE said:
Dave won't have to worry anymore about 50 letters. I imagine it will be far closer to 100.TheScreamingEagles said:
Cameron is just a liar and a fake.
He will become the lightning conductor for all the Tory shame and self hatred that will bubble over - once we have voted IN. He will be the symbol of the GREAT LIE that was told to the British people, etc etc. And as the EU comes after more of our sovereignty, which it will (because it always does) the anger at Cameron will only grow.
He'll win his vote. But then he can look forward to a lifetime of contumely, poured over his silly pink head.
The seeds for the Tories exit from power for a very long time have been sowed. The clock is ticking, just a matter of when time runs out.0 -
It might be a Scottish generation, so maybe 5 years?Wanderer said:
Everyone's going to vote Labour for 25 years? Really?GIN1138 said:
Sorry, the Tories will be out of power for a generation (maybe longer) very shortly. Its no more than they deserve.williamglenn said:
It depends how comprehensive the defeat is.SeanT said:
Yes. I first said on here months ago that Cameron would become the Tory Blair, loathed with a passion by his own party. I see my thesis has been taken up.GIN1138 said:
Far, far worse than Heath. At least Heath was honest about his position and it was a view (however misguided) born out of WWII.SeanT said:
There are no words to describe my loathing for Cameron. He's worse than Heath.MP_SE said:
Dave won't have to worry anymore about 50 letters. I imagine it will be far closer to 100.TheScreamingEagles said:
Cameron is just a liar and a fake.
He will become the lightning conductor for all the Tory shame and self hatred that will bubble over - once we have voted IN. He will be the symbol of the GREAT LIE that was told to the British people, etc etc. And as the EU comes after more of our sovereignty, which it will (because it always does) the anger at Cameron will only grow.
He'll win his vote. But then he can look forward to a lifetime of contumely, poured over his silly pink head.
I see a direct line between the Conservatives who cheered when Chris Patten lost his seat, the gang of Redwood, Gorman, Cash, IDS et al who rendered the party incapable of opposing the rise of Blair and Brown, and the present lynch mob out for Cameron's blood today.
If Cameron goes down, the long project to rescue the natural party of government from the grip of an ideological virus will go down too. With Labour led by Corbyn and the Lib Dems in disarray the country can ill afford such a train of events.0 -
All treaties denude countries of sovereignty to some extent. Our membership of NATO, by requiring us to come to the defence of fellow signatories in the event they are attacked, reduced our sovereignty.runnymede said:Robert -
Ultimately, removing non-tariff barriers means stripping countries of sovereignty. That is the very nature of them; free trade treaties like NAFTA and TTIP that lower NTBs constrain the ability of national governments to make policy as they see fit.
--------
I'm struggling a bit with this line of reasoning, Robert.
Presumably you could say the same thing about **any** trade restriction, be it tariffs, quotas, anti-dumping moves, regulatory barriers etc etc.
Treaties that lower tariffs do this in a transparent way. Products with the following codes from the following countries now have tariffs of [x], and these deals are largely symmetrical.
But NTBs are more complex. Take the current India-EU FTA negotiation. India wants the ability of Indian firms, based in India, with Indian trained lawyers, to be able to offer conveyencing services into the UK market. This is an NTB, in that we currently have a bunch of restrictions on who is able to offer these.
Now, we could fold on this, and allow Indian lawyers to offer this service to UK home buyers (which would no doubt save them some money, at the expense of lowering solicitors' incomes in the UK), and it might make sense for us to do so. But if we enter into a treaty that removes those NTBs, then it restricts the ability of the UK government in the future to regulate the conveyencing market.
We get more free trade, but at the expense of sovereignty.0 -
Le déluge.BenedictWhite said:And if leave win?
0 -
And which day was that? As far as I could tell it was polling day.TheScreamingEagles said:
I was thinking ofBenedictWhite said:
It isn't. The exit poll shocked every one and it was wildly out as well underestimating Conservative support.TheScreamingEagles said:
What victory?SeanT said:
Enjoy your victory, traitor.TheScreamingEagles said:Remain up to 76% over on Betfair
A single vote has yet to be cast.
The one thing I hope we all learned from last year was hubris is not a good look before the results come in.
'The Day The Polls Turned'0 -
Why the foreign flag in your avatar ?Stark_Dawning said:Polling for the Camerendum not looking good then?
0 -
Like Norway, Iceland makes a contribution to the EU (I have no idea how much). They also have freedom of labour.BenedictWhite said:But they neither pay of have free movement do they?
0 -
Friday the 10th of April 2015BenedictWhite said:
And which day was that? As far as I could tell it was polling day.TheScreamingEagles said:
I was thinking ofBenedictWhite said:
It isn't. The exit poll shocked every one and it was wildly out as well underestimating Conservative support.TheScreamingEagles said:
What victory?SeanT said:
Enjoy your victory, traitor.TheScreamingEagles said:Remain up to 76% over on Betfair
A single vote has yet to be cast.
The one thing I hope we all learned from last year was hubris is not a good look before the results come in.
'The Day The Polls Turned'
https://twitter.com/1000cuts/status/7323327954151751680 -
Do you know, I have a feeling that you are both right!GIN1138 said:
And just as Labour has been cast into the political wilderness, so to will the Conservatives. Their self-loathing and shame over the refernedum will mirror Labours over Iraq.SeanT said:Yes. I first said on here months ago that Cameron would become the Tory Blair, loathed with a passion by his own party. I see my thesis has been taken up.
He will become the lightning conductor for all the Tory shame and self hatred that will bubble over - once we have voted IN. He will be the symbol of the GREAT LIE that was told to the British people, etc etc. And as the EU comes after more of our sovereignty, which it will (because it always does) the anger at Cameron will only grow.
He'll win his vote. But then he can look forward to a lifetime of contumely, poured over his silly pink head.
The seeds for the Tories exit from power for a very long time have been sowed. The clock is ticking, just a matter of when time runs out.
I sometimes feel the temptation to vote Remain - but if I do that, and Remain wins, Mr Cameron will immediately declare that he has a democratic mandate to...... Well, to do whatever he likes.
The man has form.
The AV referendum rejected AV.
But the Conservatives interpreted the defeat of AV as a vote in favour of FPTP - which it most certainly was not. (I think we need another thread on AV, by the way.)
Meanwhile, the only way to stop Cameron in his tracks must be to vote for Leave - without accepting for one moment the foolish reactionary arguments put forward by Gove, Farage, B Johnson, Redwood, IDS, Davies and Co.0 -
To be honest I've barely looked at the polls.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have taken my wife to York today for three days to celebrate our 52nd anniversary. I have not been on line all day but when I log on tonight it seems as if the whole world has fallen in on leave with the bitterest of language and hostility to David Cameron and remain. As far as I can tell there have been two goodish polls for remain and one for leave. It is far from over as I can see but why are leave waving the white flagGIN1138 said:
And just as Labour has been cast into the political wilderness, so to will the Conservatives. Their self-loathing and shame over this grubby referendum will mirror Labours over Iraq.SeanT said:
Yes. I first said on here months ago that Cameron would become the Tory Blair, loathed with a passion by his own party. I see my thesis has been taken up.GIN1138 said:
Far, far worse than Heath. At least Heath was honest about his position and it was a view (however misguided) born out of WWII.SeanT said:
There are no words to describe my loathing for Cameron. He's worse than Heath.MP_SE said:
Dave won't have to worry anymore about 50 letters. I imagine it will be far closer to 100.TheScreamingEagles said:
Cameron is just a liar and a fake.
He will become the lightning conductor for all the Tory shame and self hatred that will bubble over - once we have voted IN. He will be the symbol of the GREAT LIE that was told to the British people, etc etc. And as the EU comes after more of our sovereignty, which it will (because it always does) the anger at Cameron will only grow.
He'll win his vote. But then he can look forward to a lifetime of contumely, poured over his silly pink head.
The seeds for the Tories exit from power for a very long time have been sowed. The clock is ticking, just a matter of when time runs out.
I've been bitter towards Cameron and Osborne since the day they shamefully brought a foreign leader into MY country (that's my country, not their's) to threaten me!
That was the final straw for me as far as these two Posh Boys are concerned.0 -
Same here.GIN1138 said:
To be honest I've barely looked at the polls.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have taken my wife to York today for three days to celebrate our 52nd anniversary. I have not been on line all day but when I log on tonight it seems as if the whole world has fallen in on leave with the bitterest of language and hostility to David Cameron and remain. As far as I can tell there have been two goodish polls for remain and one for leave. It is far from over as I can see but why are leave waving the white flagGIN1138 said:
And just as Labour has been cast into the political wilderness, so to will the Conservatives. Their self-loathing and shame over this grubby referendum will mirror Labours over Iraq.SeanT said:
Yes. I first said on here months ago that Cameron would become the Tory Blair, loathed with a passion by his own party. I see my thesis has been taken up.GIN1138 said:
Far, far worse than Heath. At least Heath was honest about his position and it was a view (however misguided) born out of WWII.SeanT said:
There are no words to describe my loathing for Cameron. He's worse than Heath.MP_SE said:
Dave won't have to worry anymore about 50 letters. I imagine it will be far closer to 100.TheScreamingEagles said:
Cameron is just a liar and a fake.
He will become the lightning conductor for all the Tory shame and self hatred that will bubble over - once we have voted IN. He will be the symbol of the GREAT LIE that was told to the British people, etc etc. And as the EU comes after more of our sovereignty, which it will (because it always does) the anger at Cameron will only grow.
He'll win his vote. But then he can look forward to a lifetime of contumely, poured over his silly pink head.
The seeds for the Tories exit from power for a very long time have been sowed. The clock is ticking, just a matter of when time runs out.
I've been bitter towards Cameron and Osborne since the day they shamefully brought a foreign leader into MY country (that's my country, not their's) to threaten me!
That was the final straw for me as far as these two Posh Boys are concerned.0 -
If I survived being a Ken Clarke supporter in 2001, I'm sure I'll survive this.SeanT said:
Whatever. I don't think people like you have much future on the right, long term.TheScreamingEagles said:
What victory?SeanT said:
Enjoy your victory, traitor.TheScreamingEagles said:Remain up to 76% over on Betfair
A single vote has yet to be cast.
The one thing I hope we all learned from last year was hubris is not a good look before the results come in.
Most Tories are LEAVERS, nearly all Kippers are LEAVERS. Therefore, YOU are the anomaly. The deformed second embryo. The monstrous aberration.
After the referendum, your kind will be scraped from the uterus of conservative British politics with wire coat hangers.
More unites the Tory Party than divides it.0 -
That's interesting. Why can't we allow Indian lawyers with sufficient insurance, with our ability to regulate them as well?rcs1000 said:
All treaties denude countries of sovereignty to some extent. Our membership of NATO, by requiring us to come to the defence of fellow signatories in the event they are attacked, reduced our sovereignty.runnymede said:Robert -
Ultimately, removing non-tariff barriers means stripping countries of sovereignty. That is the very nature of them; free trade treaties like NAFTA and TTIP that lower NTBs constrain the ability of national governments to make policy as they see fit.
--------
I'm struggling a bit with this line of reasoning, Robert.
Presumably you could say the same thing about **any** trade restriction, be it tariffs, quotas, anti-dumping moves, regulatory barriers etc etc.
Treaties that lower tariffs do this in a transparent way. Products with the following codes from the following countries now have tariffs of [x], and these deals are largely symmetrical.
But NTBs are more complex. Take the current India-EU FTA negotiation. India wants the ability of Indian firms, based in India, with Indian trained lawyers, to be able to offer conveyencing services into the UK market. This is an NTB, in that we currently have a bunch of restrictions on who is able to offer these.
Now, we could fold on this, and allow Indian lawyers to offer this service to UK home buyers (which would no doubt save them some money, at the expense of lowering solicitors' incomes in the UK), and it might make sense for us to do so. But if we enter into a treaty that removes those NTBs, then it restricts the ability of the UK government in the future to regulate the conveyencing market.
We get more free trade, but at the expense of sovereignty.0 -
That's also a very good question. Unfortunately I'm going to bed now. Please don't let me forget to answer this tomorrow.BenedictWhite said:
That's interesting. Why can't we allow Indian lawyers with sufficient insurance, with our ability to regulate them as well?rcs1000 said:
All treaties denude countries of sovereignty to some extent. Our membership of NATO, by requiring us to come to the defence of fellow signatories in the event they are attacked, reduced our sovereignty.runnymede said:Robert -
Ultimately, removing non-tariff barriers means stripping countries of sovereignty. That is the very nature of them; free trade treaties like NAFTA and TTIP that lower NTBs constrain the ability of national governments to make policy as they see fit.
--------
I'm struggling a bit with this line of reasoning, Robert.
Presumably you could say the same thing about **any** trade restriction, be it tariffs, quotas, anti-dumping moves, regulatory barriers etc etc.
Treaties that lower tariffs do this in a transparent way. Products with the following codes from the following countries now have tariffs of [x], and these deals are largely symmetrical.
But NTBs are more complex. Take the current India-EU FTA negotiation. India wants the ability of Indian firms, based in India, with Indian trained lawyers, to be able to offer conveyencing services into the UK market. This is an NTB, in that we currently have a bunch of restrictions on who is able to offer these.
Now, we could fold on this, and allow Indian lawyers to offer this service to UK home buyers (which would no doubt save them some money, at the expense of lowering solicitors' incomes in the UK), and it might make sense for us to do so. But if we enter into a treaty that removes those NTBs, then it restricts the ability of the UK government in the future to regulate the conveyencing market.
We get more free trade, but at the expense of sovereignty.0 -
I would venture to suggest you have been bitter with them both as they have decided in their opinion UK was better in than out the EU, and that you may have underestimated their ruthless nature to win their argumentGIN1138 said:
To be honest I've barely looked at the polls.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have taken my wife to York today for three days to celebrate our 52nd anniversary. I have not been on line all day but when I log on tonight it seems as if the whole world has fallen in on leave with the bitterest of language and hostility to David Cameron and remain. As far as I can tell there have been two goodish polls for remain and one for leave. It is far from over as I can see but why are leave waving the white flagGIN1138 said:
And just as Labour has been cast into the political wilderness, so to will the Conservatives. Their self-loathing and shame over this grubby referendum will mirror Labours over Iraq.SeanT said:
Yes. I first said on here months ago that Cameron would become the Tory Blair, loathed with a passion by his own party. I see my thesis has been taken up.GIN1138 said:
Far, far worse than Heath. At least Heath was honest about his position and it was a view (however misguided) born out of WWII.SeanT said:
There are no words to describe my loathing for Cameron. He's worse than Heath.MP_SE said:
Dave won't have to worry anymore about 50 letters. I imagine it will be far closer to 100.TheScreamingEagles said:
Cameron is just a liar and a fake.
He will become the lightning conductor for all the Tory shame and self hatred that will bubble over - once we have voted IN. He will be the symbol of the GREAT LIE that was told to the British people, etc etc. And as the EU comes after more of our sovereignty, which it will (because it always does) the anger at Cameron will only grow.
He'll win his vote. But then he can look forward to a lifetime of contumely, poured over his silly pink head.
The seeds for the Tories exit from power for a very long time have been sowed. The clock is ticking, just a matter of when time runs out.
I've been bitter towards Cameron and Osborne since the day they shamefully brought a foreign leader into MY country (that's my country, not their's) to threaten me!
That was the final straw for me as far as these two Posh Boys are concerned.0 -
I seem to recall that you were flirting with voting Ed Miliband a year or so back. That's fine, but I find it rather difficult to square with the current bombast.GIN1138 said:
To be honest I've barely looked at the polls.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have taken my wife to York today for three days to celebrate our 52nd anniversary. I have not been on line all day but when I log on tonight it seems as if the whole world has fallen in on leave with the bitterest of language and hostility to David Cameron and remain. As far as I can tell there have been two goodish polls for remain and one for leave. It is far from over as I can see but why are leave waving the white flagGIN1138 said:
And just as Labour has been cast into the political wilderness, so to will the Conservatives. Their self-loathing and shame over this grubby referendum will mirror Labours over Iraq.SeanT said:
Yes. I first said on here months ago that Cameron would become the Tory Blair, loathed with a passion by his own party. I see my thesis has been taken up.GIN1138 said:
Far, far worse than Heath. At least Heath was honest about his position and it was a view (however misguided) born out of WWII.SeanT said:
There are no words to describe my loathing for Cameron. He's worse than Heath.MP_SE said:
Dave won't have to worry anymore about 50 letters. I imagine it will be far closer to 100.TheScreamingEagles said:
Cameron is just a liar and a fake.
He will become the lightning conductor for all the Tory shame and self hatred that will bubble over - once we have voted IN. He will be the symbol of the GREAT LIE that was told to the British people, etc etc. And as the EU comes after more of our sovereignty, which it will (because it always does) the anger at Cameron will only grow.
He'll win his vote. But then he can look forward to a lifetime of contumely, poured over his silly pink head.
The seeds for the Tories exit from power for a very long time have been sowed. The clock is ticking, just a matter of when time runs out.
I've been bitter towards Cameron and Osborne since the day they shamefully brought a foreign leader into MY country (that's my country, not their's) to threaten me!
That was the final straw for me as far as these two Posh Boys are concerned.0 -
Yes I agree the situation can be more complex with NTBs, but NTBs of course come in many shapes and sizes.rcs1000 said:
All treaties denude countries of sovereignty to some extent. Our membership of NATO, by requiring us to come to the defence of fellow signatories in the event they are attacked, reduced our sovereignty.runnymede said:Robert -
Ultimately, removing non-tariff barriers means stripping countries of sovereignty. That is the very nature of them; free trade treaties like NAFTA and TTIP that lower NTBs constrain the ability of national governments to make policy as they see fit.
--------
I'm struggling a bit with this line of reasoning, Robert.
Presumably you could say the same thing about **any** trade restriction, be it tariffs, quotas, anti-dumping moves, regulatory barriers etc etc.
Treaties that lower tariffs do this in a transparent way. Products with the following codes from the following countries now have tariffs of [x], and these deals are largely symmetrical.
But NTBs are more complex. Take the current India-EU FTA negotiation. India wants the ability of Indian firms, based in India, with Indian trained lawyers, to be able to offer conveyencing services into the UK market. This is an NTB, in that we currently have a bunch of restrictions on who is able to offer these.
Now, we could fold on this, and allow Indian lawyers to offer this service to UK home buyers (which would no doubt save them some money, at the expense of lowering solicitors' incomes in the UK), and it might make sense for us to do so. But if we enter into a treaty that removes those NTBs, then it restricts the ability of the UK government in the future to regulate the conveyencing market.
We get more free trade, but at the expense of sovereignty.
So for example deals about restricting anti-dumping activities would be simpler than the example you quote, and these are one of the most serious problems world trade faces having proliferated over recent decades.0 -
Ah... That turning. Not the last one bit the penultimate one.TheScreamingEagles said:
Friday the 10th of April 2015BenedictWhite said:
And which day was that? As far as I could tell it was polling day.TheScreamingEagles said:
I was thinking ofBenedictWhite said:
It isn't. The exit poll shocked every one and it was wildly out as well underestimating Conservative support.TheScreamingEagles said:
What victory?SeanT said:
Enjoy your victory, traitor.TheScreamingEagles said:Remain up to 76% over on Betfair
A single vote has yet to be cast.
The one thing I hope we all learned from last year was hubris is not a good look before the results come in.
'The Day The Polls Turned'
https://twitter.com/1000cuts/status/7323327954151751680 -
It should show hordes of young men with backpacks heading for the 'Asylum' Office...Sunil_Prasannan said:
You mean like this:Scott_P said:Chortle
@steve_hawkes: Lynton Crosby says Vote Leave should spend less time worrying about TV debates - and more time finding/delivering a clearer/simpler message
https://twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/7312407572275732480
