It was entertaining to hear 'Lord War-War' aka Charlie Falconer scuttling out to bat for Remain later on in the show. They've almost got the entire lineup of discredited former Labour ministers on board now.
Well, here it is, I have decided to vote to remain on the 23rd June. This has been quite the most difficult decision I have made in a very long time. My heart absolutely demands that we leave the nightmare that is the EU with the unelected eurocrats, red tape, European Court and indeed everything that is so wrong at the present time. However my head says that there is simply too much evidence to support the economic argument that we derive huge commercial benefits from our membership and that this is endorsed by so many organisations and Countries that it is not possible to continue to say that it is just 'project fear'. Furthermore, leave have not been able to convince me that they will be able to control immigration and without that there is no point in facing the years of uncertainty that would inevitably follow an exit. I do believe that the UK within the EU can have an impact on the organisation as it faces the many uncertainties the next few years will bring and that strong alliances can be forged to change the face of Europe. David Cameron is widely respected in Europe and he would return to the EU as the inevitable successor to the disaster that is Angela Merkel, and hopefully with a unified much more eurosceptic cabinet. Europe is changing to a much more sceptical population and I am not at all certain that the eurozone itself will survive and certainly I am convinced that Turkey will not obtain membership for decades. I know some on this forum will say that I have always been remain but that is just not true. I hope the leavers will respect my decision and that we can continue our inputs without unnecessary abuse and with respect for each other positions.
OMG Cameron fanboy opts for Remain and attempts to justify it.
Just man up and tell the truth ffs, that way you'll get more respect and less abuse
If you have read my comments you will see the turmoil in my decision. I recognise that some from leave would not be happy but I would draw your attention to my last sentence.
Turmoil? Will you be sobbing as you leave the polling station?
"David Cameron is widely respected in Europe and he would return to the EU as the inevitable successor to the disaster that is Angela Merkel,"
He has already told you he's standing down. Your post reads like that of a 15 year old girl writing about Donny Osmond
Obama is visibly making a huge mistake by interfering in the referendum. The UK has been a stalwart ally of the United States. This has been due to strong support on the right overcoming the anti-Americanism of the left. But now he is offending the British right wing, putting them off.
It has historical form here - It toppled Eden over Suez (in an attempt to remove British influence from the Middle East and supplant it with its own), and then nearly toppled SuperMac soon afterwards over the Blue Steak nuclear warhead delivery system. They were intent on removing Britain as a nuclear state.
Robinson seized upon the negative first, but to be fair to Gove he made the most attractive pitch to me.
@norock: "We could be like Canada" says Gove "Canada have to pay tariffs" "We wouldn't have to be like Canada" says Gove
If that's "the most attractive pitch", I have a bridge you may be interested in...
You do realise that quoting twitter does not win an argument, right?
If he stopped quoting non-entities on Twitter he would have almost nothing to say, and the number of posts on a thread would half (and the information density double)
I think that Scott is a Microsoft chat bot.
I think Scott is very funny and his comments get the Leavers frothing so much so much because he regularly hits them in a soft spot
btw anecdote alert, I had lunch recently with an ex Cambridge, gay, university lecturer, in his late 20s. He is fervently out. Trying to categorise people is impossible.
Well, here it is, I have decided to vote to remain on the 23rd June. This has been quite the most difficult decision I have made in a very long time. My heart absolutely demands that we leave the nightmare that is the EU with the unelected eurocrats, red tape, European Court and indeed everything that is so wrong at the present time. However my head says that there is simply too much evidence to support the economic argument that we derive huge commercial benefits from our membership and that this is endorsed by so many organisations and Countries that it is not possible to continue to say that it is just 'project fear'. Furthermore, leave have not been able to convince me that they will be able to control immigration and without that there is no point in facing the years of uncertainty that would inevitably follow an exit. I do believe that the UK within the EU can have an impact on the organisation as it faces the many uncertainties the next few years will bring and that strong alliances can be forged to change the face of Europe. David Cameron is widely respected in Europe and he would return to the EU as the inevitable successor to the disaster that is Angela Merkel, and hopefully with a unified much more eurosceptic cabinet. Europe is changing to a much more sceptical population and I am not at all certain that the eurozone itself will survive and certainly I am convinced that Turkey will not obtain membership for decades. I know some on this forum will say that I have always been remain but that is just not true. I hope the leavers will respect my decision and that we can continue our inputs without unnecessary abuse and with respect for each other positions.
Thank you for sharing those thoughts - v interesting.
As to your point about immigration, speaking to a lot of leavers, it seems that it is arguably only here in the rarified atmosphere of PB that people are prepared to put up with EEA/EFTA and the continued four freedoms, in particular of people. Most people I speak to (= anecdote obvs), really do care about immigration and control of our borders.
Any scenario that ignores that in the event of a Leave vote will not end well.
I believe one of the reasons leave are likely to lose is because they do not have a coherent story to tell on immigration. It seems that despite the promise of a referendum the various leave groups have been more interested in fighting themselves than addressing this fundamental issue so that they could all sing from the same hymn sheet. If they had resolved the issue in a believable way they would have had a better chance of convincing the voters
Obama is visibly making a huge mistake by interfering in the referendum. The UK has been a stalwart ally of the United States. This has been due to strong support on the right overcoming the anti-Americanism of the left. But now he is offending the British right wing, putting them off.
As well as blatantly becoming involved in British politics. He should cease interfering forthwith.
Robinson seized upon the negative first, but to be fair to Gove he made the most attractive pitch to me.
@norock: "We could be like Canada" says Gove "Canada have to pay tariffs" "We wouldn't have to be like Canada" says Gove
If that's "the most attractive pitch", I have a bridge you may be interested in...
You do realise that quoting twitter does not win an argument, right?
If he stopped quoting non-entities on Twitter he would have almost nothing to say, and the number of posts on a thread would half (and the information density double)
I think that Scott is a Microsoft chat bot.
I think Scott is very funny and his comments get the Leavers frothing so much so much because he regularly hits them in a soft spot
We used to have Draperbots on here. Now we have Eurobots.
Well, here it is, I have decided to vote to remain on the 23rd June. This has been quite the most difficult decision I have made in a very long time. My heart absolutely demands that we leave the nightmare that is the EU with the unelected eurocrats, red tape, European Court and indeed everything that is so wrong at the present time. However my head says that there is simply too much evidence to support the economic argument that we derive huge commercial benefits from our membership and that this is endorsed by so many organisations and Countries that it is not possible to continue to say that it is just 'project fear'. Furthermore, leave have not been able to convince me that they will be able to control immigration and without that there is no point in facing the years of uncertainty that would inevitably follow an exit. I do believe that the UK within the EU can have an impact on the organisation as it faces the many uncertainties the next few years will bring and that strong alliances can be forged to change the face of Europe. David Cameron is widely respected in Europe and he would return to the EU as the inevitable successor to the disaster that is Angela Merkel, and hopefully with a unified much more eurosceptic cabinet. Europe is changing to a much more sceptical population and I am not at all certain that the eurozone itself will survive and certainly I am convinced that Turkey will not obtain membership for decades. I know some on this forum will say that I have always been remain but that is just not true. I hope the leavers will respect my decision and that we can continue our inputs without unnecessary abuse and with respect for each other positions.
OMG Cameron fanboy opts for Remain and attempts to justify it.
Just man up and tell the truth ffs, that way you'll get more respect and less abuse
Big_G_NorthWales said: "Well, here it is, I have decided to vote to remain on the 23rd June."
Taking your main reasons. Big_G_NorthWales said: "I do believe that the UK within the EU can have an impact on the organisation as it faces the many uncertainties the next few years will bring and that strong alliances can be forged to change the face of Europe."
A rational view if we had not heard this line from the Major govts from 1990 to 1997 and from the Blair /Brown govts of 1997 to 2010 and from the Cameron govts from 2010 to 2016. "in europe not run by it" etc etc
The evidence of history is overwhelming. On this promise of reform from the inside the politicians broken promises are strewn on the ground. Why conclude that if a strategy keeps failing to succeed you think "one more push" will overcome all the past failures?
Big_G_NorthWales said: "David Cameron is widely respected in Europe and he would return to the EU as the inevitable successor to the disaster that is Angela Merkel.."
Cameron's time at the top is also just a matter of months and not years. Count him out. He has neither the time, nor the inclination to reform the EU.
.......British leaders and commentators do not hesitate to hold forth on the foreign policy of the United States: a policy supported by David Cameron, attacked by Jeremy Corbyn, and denounced or questioned by many others with regard to the Middle East, defence spending, drone strikes, the handling of Cuba and scores of other issues. Our Parliament has even held a debate on the deficiencies of Donald Trump.
So it would be a bit rich for us, opining as we do on every aspect of America’s relations with other states, to turn all precious and sensitive when American leaders comment on ours.
Dominic Grieve taking apart Gove's argument on 5 Eyes and other justice issues.
There's a difference to holding forth on the policy of another nation and making a trip and announcement to it to speak directly to the people of that nation about it.
Obama is not "making a trip" - he's going to Germany and this trip was tagged on to include lunch with the queen at Windsor the day after her 90th - ( Michelle is flying in for that and dinner with the Duke & Duchess of Cambridge) - so is Obama not allowed an opinion on what is in American interests?
I noticed this little nugget in an article on Obama's visit:-
"Obama is, and has long been, popular in the UK. Polled by Pew Resarch in June 2015, 76 per cent of British voters trusted him "to do the right thing regarding world affairs" (and most probably judge the US to have a passing interest in our EU membership)"
Leavers would be foolish to heap their usual abuse on anyone who critisise Brexit, but, hey, who am I to stop them shooting themselves in the foot!
Just to remind PBers and others that the EU Dream of a European Empire. Was also Hitlers and Fascists dream. Sans Jews of course. Oh and sans Democracy, Labour Unions, Communists, etc., and sans anyone who disagreed with the governing Oligarchy. https://twitter.com/steven_winstone/status/722314521541484544
Do you really think you are doing Leave any favours by comparing the EU to Hitler's Third Reich? To the vast majority of voters it's bonkers.
Putin - Obama - now which one will the average Jo back I wonder
I don't think people will back either of them, although Putin is the bigger negative the days when the UK public thought Obama was a breath of fresh air are long gone.
Well, here it is, I have decided to vote to remain on the 23rd June. This has been quite the most difficult decision I have made in a very long time. My heart absolutely demands that we leave the nightmare that is the EU with the unelected eurocrats, red tape, European Court and indeed everything that is so wrong at the present time. However my head says that there is simply too much evidence to support the economic argument that we derive huge commercial benefits from our membership and that this is endorsed by so many organisations and Countries that it is not possible to continue to say that it is just 'project fear'. Furthermore, leave have not been able to convince me that they will be able to control immigration and without that there is no point in facing the years of uncertainty that would inevitably follow an exit. I do believe that the UK within the EU can have an impact on the organisation as it faces the many uncertainties the next few years will bring and that strong alliances can be forged to change the face of Europe. David Cameron is widely respected in Europe and he would return to the EU as the inevitable successor to the disaster that is Angela Merkel, and hopefully with a unified much more eurosceptic cabinet. Europe is changing to a much more sceptical population and I am not at all certain that the eurozone itself will survive and certainly I am convinced that Turkey will not obtain membership for decades. I know some on this forum will say that I have always been remain but that is just not true. I hope the leavers will respect my decision and that we can continue our inputs without unnecessary abuse and with respect for each other positions.
OMG Cameron fanboy opts for Remain and attempts to justify it.
Just man up and tell the truth ffs, that way you'll get more respect and less abuse
I trust you deploy your enviable charm when canvassing for LEAVE...
I don't canvas for Leave.
You take yourself far too seriously, like many on here, this place has zero influence, nobody ever changes their mind. I amuse myself from time to time by poking fun at lily livered sycophants like you.
'I think De Gaulle was probably right about the reasons he vetoed our application back in the day. CDG always put France first.'
But he wouldn't have bothered to use the veto today. With the UK just 1 of 28 EU states and no national vetoes and QMV, the UK can't upset the direction of the EU as De Gaulle feared.
Indeed, I suspect the General would be delighted to see that the CAP is alive and well and that the UK establishment has become entirely subservient to the EU, licking its rear end at every opportunity like some pathetic cur. It's a long way from 'la perfide Albion'.
De Gaulle is also the leader who told the US where to go in 1966, and remove their military assets from French soil. He'd have a wry smile on his face were he still around to watch the subservient British yapping for their American friends.
Well, here it is, I have decided to vote to remain on the 23rd June. This has been quite the most difficult decision I have made in a very long time. My heart absolutely demands that we leave the nightmare that is the EU with the unelected eurocrats, red tape, European Court and indeed everything that is so wrong at the present time. However my head says that there is simply too much evidence to support the economic argument that we derive huge commercial benefits from our membership and that this is endorsed by so many organisations and Countries that it is not possible to continue to say that it is just 'project fear'. Furthermore, leave have not been able to convince me that they will be able to control immigration and without that there is no point in facing the years of uncertainty that would inevitably follow an exit. I do believe that the UK within the EU can have an impact on the organisation as it faces the many uncertainties the next few years will bring and that strong alliances can be forged to change the face of Europe. David Cameron is widely respected in Europe and he would return to the EU as the inevitable successor to the disaster that is Angela Merkel, and hopefully with a unified much more eurosceptic cabinet. Europe is changing to a much more sceptical population and I am not at all certain that the eurozone itself will survive and certainly I am convinced that Turkey will not obtain membership for decades. I know some on this forum will say that I have always been remain but that is just not true. I hope the leavers will respect my decision and that we can continue our inputs without unnecessary abuse and with respect for each other positions.
OMG Cameron fanboy opts for Remain and attempts to justify it.
Just man up and tell the truth ffs, that way you'll get more respect and less abuse
I trust you deploy your enviable charm when canvassing for LEAVE...
He did spectacularly well in Dover last year, crawling into a poor third place in a seat that one poll suggested UKIP might win.
Just to remind PBers and others that the EU Dream of a European Empire. Was also Hitlers and Fascists dream. Sans Jews of course. Oh and sans Democracy, Labour Unions, Communists, etc., and sans anyone who disagreed with the governing Oligarchy. https://twitter.com/steven_winstone/status/722314521541484544
Do you really think you are doing Leave any favours by comparing the EU to Hitler's Third Reich? To the vast majority of voters it's bonkers.
Well maybe. But MikeK lived through WW2 and has more right than most people to make such points.
Well, here it is, I have decided to vote to remain on the 23rd June. This has been quite the most difficult decision I have made in a very long time. My heart absolutely demands that we leave the nightmare that is the EU with the unelected eurocrats, red tape, European Court and indeed everything that is so wrong at the present time. However my head says that there is simply too much evidence to support the economic argument that we derive huge commercial benefits from our membership and that this is endorsed by so many organisations and Countries that it is not possible to continue to say that it is just 'project fear'. Furthermore, leave have not been able to convince me that they will be able to control immigration and without that there is no point in facing the years of uncertainty that would inevitably follow an exit. I do believe that the UK within the EU can have an impact on the organisation as it faces the many uncertainties the next few years will bring and that strong alliances can be forged to change the face of Europe. David Cameron is widely respected in Europe and he would return to the EU as the inevitable successor to the disaster that is Angela Merkel, and hopefully with a unified much more eurosceptic cabinet. Europe is changing to a much more sceptical population and I am not at all certain that the eurozone itself will survive and certainly I am convinced that Turkey will not obtain membership for decades. I know some on this forum will say that I have always been remain but that is just not true. I hope the leavers will respect my decision and that we can continue our inputs without unnecessary abuse and with respect for each other positions.
OMG Cameron fanboy opts for Remain and attempts to justify it.
Just man up and tell the truth ffs, that way you'll get more respect and less abuse
Morning all, and well done Mike on the 33/1 bet. Sadiq is starting to look like a dead cert now, unless someone can find a smoking gun in his past associations.
The Tories should have gone for a much bigger personality for their candidate, Shaun Bailey would have been much better at covering the centre ground in 2016's multicultural London.
Shaun Bailey lost the one time he stood for Parliament at Hammersmith in 2010
Yes he did and it was a huge disappointment. Nothing wrong with contesting and losing a seat.
Story is he was lazy and didn't take advice - i.e. not a good candidate. It's why he hasn't had another chance. This is all second/third hand information, but I wasn't impressed when he spoke at the Kensington hustings
Possibly winning but doing so in a way that won't close down the argument and will see it returned to before too long. Both SIndy and Brexit supporters only need to win once.
Robinson seized upon the negative first, but to be fair to Gove he made the most attractive pitch to me.
@norock: "We could be like Canada" says Gove "Canada have to pay tariffs" "We wouldn't have to be like Canada" says Gove
If that's "the most attractive pitch", I have a bridge you may be interested in...
You do realise that quoting twitter does not win an argument, right?
If he stopped quoting non-entities on Twitter he would have almost nothing to say, and the number of posts on a thread would half (and the information density double)
I think that Scott is a Microsoft chat bot.
I think Scott is very funny and his comments get the Leavers frothing so much so much because he regularly hits them in a soft spot
We used to have Draperbots on here. Now we have Eurobots.
I am sure from your posting record that that is some sort of abuse but I have no idea what you are talking about.
Well, here it is, I have decided to vote to remain on the 23rd June. This has been quite the most difficult decision I have made in a very long time. My heart absolutely demands that we leave the nightmare that is the EU with the unelected eurocrats, red tape, European Court and indeed everything that is so wrong at the present time. However my head says that there is simply too much evidence to support the economic argument that we derive huge commercial benefits from our membership and that this is endorsed by so many organisations and Countries that it is not possible to continue to say that it is just 'project fear'. Furthermore, leave have not been able to convince me that they will be able to control immigration and without that there is no point in facing the years of uncertainty that would inevitably follow an exit. I do believe that the UK within the EU can have an impact on the organisation as it faces the many uncertainties the next few years will bring and that strong alliances can be forged to change the face of Europe. David Cameron is widely respected in Europe and he would return to the EU as the inevitable successor to the disaster that is Angela Merkel, and hopefully with a unified much more eurosceptic cabinet. Europe is changing to a much more sceptical population and I am not at all certain that the eurozone itself will survive and certainly I am convinced that Turkey will not obtain membership for decades. I know some on this forum will say that I have always been remain but that is just not true. I hope the leavers will respect my decision and that we can continue our inputs without unnecessary abuse and with respect for each other positions.
OMG Cameron fanboy opts for Remain and attempts to justify it.
Just man up and tell the truth ffs, that way you'll get more respect and less abuse
If you have read my comments you will see the turmoil in my decision. I recognise that some from leave would not be happy but I would draw your attention to my last sentence.
Turmoil? Will you be sobbing as you leave the polling station?
"David Cameron is widely respected in Europe and he would return to the EU as the inevitable successor to the disaster that is Angela Merkel,"
He has already told you he's standing down. Your post reads like that of a 15 year old girl writing about Donny Osmond
You are doing yourself no favours and I am not going to respond further
Now I have heard it all...Royal College of Midwives have come out against leaving because "EU regulations ensure women get time off for anti-natal classes".
If the government tried to scrap that, MumNet pitchfork brigade would riot within seconds.
There was a load of bollocks from the Environmental Audit Committee which seemed to imply that if it wasn't for the EU we would be wallowing in our own filth, as though we have no inherent interest in caring for our country and the health of our citizens.
Those leavers who blame everything bad on the EU are matched by a similar group of numpties who attribute everything good that has happened in the country since the 70s to the beneficence of the EU. Both groups are idiots.
Well, here it is, I have decided to vote to remain on the 23rd June. This has been quite the most difficult decision I have made in a very long time. My heart absolutely demands that we leave the nightmare that is the EU with the unelected eurocrats, red tape, European Court and indeed everything that is so wrong at the present time. However my head says that there is simply too much evidence to support the economic argument that we derive huge commercial benefits from our membership and that this is endorsed by so many organisations and Countries that it is not possible to continue to say that it is just 'project fear'. Furthermore, leave have not been able to convince me that they will be able to control immigration and without that there is no point in facing the years of uncertainty that would inevitably follow an exit. I do believe that the UK within the EU can have an impact on the organisation as it faces the many uncertainties the next few years will bring and that strong alliances can be forged to change the face of Europe. David Cameron is widely respected in Europe and he would return to the EU as the inevitable successor to the disaster that is Angela Merkel, and hopefully with a unified much more eurosceptic cabinet. Europe is changing to a much more sceptical population and I am not at all certain that the eurozone itself will survive and certainly I am convinced that Turkey will not obtain membership for decades. I know some on this forum will say that I have always been remain but that is just not true. I hope the leavers will respect my decision and that we can continue our inputs without unnecessary abuse and with respect for each other positions.
OMG Cameron fanboy opts for Remain and attempts to justify it.
Just man up and tell the truth ffs, that way you'll get more respect and less abuse
If you have read my comments you will see the turmoil in my decision. I recognise that some from leave would not be happy but I would draw your attention to my last sentence.
Turmoil? Will you be sobbing as you leave the polling station?
"David Cameron is widely respected in Europe and he would return to the EU as the inevitable successor to the disaster that is Angela Merkel,"
He has already told you he's standing down. Your post reads like that of a 15 year old girl writing about Donny Osmond
Cut it out. You were pretty unpleasant to me last week. And now you're doing it to this poster. There's no need.
Morning all, and well done Mike on the 33/1 bet. Sadiq is starting to look like a dead cert now, unless someone can find a smoking gun in his past associations.
The Tories should have gone for a much bigger personality for their candidate, Shaun Bailey would have been much better at covering the centre ground in 2016's multicultural London.
Shaun Bailey lost the one time he stood for Parliament at Hammersmith in 2010
Yes he did and it was a huge disappointment. Nothing wrong with contesting and losing a seat.
Story is he was lazy and didn't take advice - i.e. not a good candidate. It's why he hasn't had another chance. This is all second/third hand information, but I wasn't impressed when he spoke at the Kensington hustings
You can't have been listening and I wouldn't take other peoples' word for anything much. He was not lazy and was out on the streets often and regularly. He is a great speaker, and had, at one gathering, a group of let's call them diverse (ie out of towner) mainly poshos eating out of his hand.
'I think De Gaulle was probably right about the reasons he vetoed our application back in the day. CDG always put France first.'
But he wouldn't have bothered to use the veto today. With the UK just 1 of 28 EU states and no national vetoes and QMV, the UK can't upset the direction of the EU as De Gaulle feared.
Indeed, I suspect the General would be delighted to see that the CAP is alive and well and that the UK establishment has become entirely subservient to the EU, licking its rear end at every opportunity like some pathetic cur. It's a long way from 'la perfide Albion'.
De Gaulle is also the leader who told the US where to go in 1966, and remove their military assets from French soil. He'd have a wry smile on his face were he still around to watch the subservient British yapping for their American friends.
That was not De Gaulle's high point, frankly. Wasn't it in response to this that the then US Ambassador to France reportedly asked whether the Americans should also remove the bodies of all the US soldiers buried in French soil?
Well, here it is, I have decided to vote to remain on the 23rd June. This has been quite the most difficult decision I have made in a very long time. My heart absolutely demands that we leave the nightmare that is the EU with the unelected eurocrats, red tape, European Court and indeed everything that is so wrong at the present time. However my head says that there is simply too much evidence to support the economic argument that we derive huge commercial benefits from our membership and that this is endorsed by so many organisations and Countries that it is not possible to continue to say that it is just 'project fear'. Furthermore, leave have not been able to convince me that they will be able to control immigration and without that there is no point in facing the years of uncertainty that would inevitably follow an exit. I do believe that the UK within the EU can have an impact on the organisation as it faces the many uncertainties the next few years will bring and that strong alliances can be forged to change the face of Europe. David Cameron is widely respected in Europe and he would return to the EU as the inevitable successor to the disaster that is Angela Merkel, and hopefully with a unified much more eurosceptic cabinet. Europe is changing to a much more sceptical population and I am not at all certain that the eurozone itself will survive and certainly I am convinced that Turkey will not obtain membership for decades. I know some on this forum will say that I have always been remain but that is just not true. I hope the leavers will respect my decision and that we can continue our inputs without unnecessary abuse and with respect for each other positions.
OMG Cameron fanboy opts for Remain and attempts to justify it.
Just man up and tell the truth ffs, that way you'll get more respect and less abuse
I trust you deploy your enviable charm when canvassing for LEAVE...
He did spectacularly well in Dover last year, crawling into a poor third place in a seat that one poll suggested UKIP might win.
You tories should be grateful, without me Labour would have won Dover & Deal.
Just to remind PBers and others that the EU Dream of a European Empire. Was also Hitlers and Fascists dream. Sans Jews of course. Oh and sans Democracy, Labour Unions, Communists, etc., and sans anyone who disagreed with the governing Oligarchy. https://twitter.com/steven_winstone/status/722314521541484544
Do you really think you are doing Leave any favours by comparing the EU to Hitler's Third Reich? To the vast majority of voters it's bonkers.
Just to remind PBers and others that the EU Dream of a European Empire. Was also Hitlers and Fascists dream. Sans Jews of course. Oh and sans Democracy, Labour Unions, Communists, etc., and sans anyone who disagreed with the governing Oligarchy. https://twitter.com/steven_winstone/status/722314521541484544
Do you really think you are doing Leave any favours by comparing the EU to Hitler's Third Reich? To the vast majority of voters it's bonkers.
Churchill's early speeches as wartime Prime Minister were better received by Labour than Conservative MPs, many of whom took Lord Halifax's position that Britain should stay out of Europe. Ironically, Churchill only got the job after Chamberlain was blamed for the failure of Churchill's scheme to disrupt the European steel trade between Sweden and Germany. Still, we got a Christmas tree out of it.
A very interesting article. "The cost for Remain of recruiting Death, Plague, Famine and War to their cause is measured in credibility: that not only will the exaggerated be discounted by the public but so, by taint of association, will the legitimate.".... ". With more than two months still to go, there is at best precious little margin for error."
Yesterday was reported during the day and evening as a "mini triumph" in the main broadcasting media. it was all about Project Fear. But tucked away in the 200 pages was the Govt/REMAIN agreeing that we are getting 3 million more immigrants if we stay. 3 million more is a very big number for the voters to swallow and accept.
Just to remind PBers and others that the EU Dream of a European Empire. Was also Hitlers and Fascists dream. Sans Jews of course. Oh and sans Democracy, Labour Unions, Communists, etc., and sans anyone who disagreed with the governing Oligarchy. https://twitter.com/steven_winstone/status/722314521541484544
Do you really think you are doing Leave any favours by comparing the EU to Hitler's Third Reich? To the vast majority of voters it's bonkers.
Well maybe. But MikeK lived through WW2 and has more right than most people to make such points.
I would have thought that should give him less right then. He can't plead ignorance.
Just to remind PBers and others that the EU Dream of a European Empire. Was also Hitlers and Fascists dream. Sans Jews of course. Oh and sans Democracy, Labour Unions, Communists, etc., and sans anyone who disagreed with the governing Oligarchy. https://twitter.com/steven_winstone/status/722314521541484544
Do you really think you are doing Leave any favours by comparing the EU to Hitler's Third Reich? To the vast majority of voters it's bonkers.
Well, here it is, I have decided to vote to remain on the 23rd June. This has been quite the most difficult decision I have made in a very long time. My heart absolutely demands that we leave the nightmare that is the EU with the unelected eurocrats, red tape, European Court and indeed everything that is so wrong at the present time. However my head says that there is simply too much evidence to support the economic argument that we derive huge commercial benefits from our membership and that this is endorsed by so many organisations and Countries that it is not possible to continue to say that it is just 'project fear'. Furthermore, leave have not been able to convince me that they will be able to control immigration and without that there is no point in facing the years of uncertainty that would inevitably follow an exit. I do believe that the UK within the EU can have an impact on the organisation as it faces the many uncertainties the next few years will bring and that strong alliances can be forged to change the face of Europe. David Cameron is widely respected in Europe and he would return to the EU as the inevitable successor to the disaster that is Angela Merkel, and hopefully with a unified much more eurosceptic cabinet. Europe is changing to a much more sceptical population and I am not at all certain that the eurozone itself will survive and certainly I am convinced that Turkey will not obtain membership for decades. I know some on this forum will say that I have always been remain but that is just not true. I hope the leavers will respect my decision and that we can continue our inputs without unnecessary abuse and with respect for each other positions.
OMG Cameron fanboy opts for Remain and attempts to justify it.
Just man up and tell the truth ffs, that way you'll get more respect and less abuse
If you have read my comments you will see the turmoil in my decision. I recognise that some from leave would not be happy but I would draw your attention to my last sentence.
Turmoil? Will you be sobbing as you leave the polling station?
"David Cameron is widely respected in Europe and he would return to the EU as the inevitable successor to the disaster that is Angela Merkel,"
He has already told you he's standing down. Your post reads like that of a 15 year old girl writing about Donny Osmond
Cut it out. You were pretty unpleasant to me last week. And now you're doing it to this poster. There's no need.
Hang on a minute, you blatantly accused me of misogyny a while back, completely unfounded, you can't have it both ways.
You write very well, that doesn't mean you can get away with unfair accusations.
Of course he is. But that is the point: Britain staying in may well be in the interests of the US and many other countries besides. And that is a point for the voters here to bear in mind. And it is useful to hear the perspectives of others on what they think may be in our best interests.
But, ultimately, the US President is concerned as to what is best for the US.
And we need to think about what is best for Britain. The two are not the same.
Indeed so.
Clearly it's in the interest of REMAIN to trumpet Obama's support just as it's in the interest of LEAVE to highlight clarion call from Putin ....
Oooppps ....
The USA is a strange beast when it comes to European politics. I wrote a piece on it for my blog back in February. The conclusion that I reached after a lot of research is that the American people are anglophile, almost to a fault, but the US political elite are anything but and in general have a very anti British approach to international policy, and seek purely to use Britain as a tool for their own gain.
The so-called "special relationship" has always struck me as a sort of British delusion to cover up the fact that from the start of the 20th century, if not before, the US was determined to supplant Britain as the premier power in the world. Even during WW2, the US looked to its own interests and did whatever it could to help dismantle Britain's Empire. It made Britain pay for the help it got. There was very little altruism involved. And that has been the case ever since. At times our interests have coincided. But that is no different to any other country. Instead of all this sentimental nonsense about special relationships, whether with the US or the EU or China or The Serene Republic of Ruritania, we should simply remember and act on Palmerston's dictum.
The Special Relationship exists and is very strong.
But it's hugely specific and narrow in scope - it refers to embedding military liaison officers in each others facilities. A close family friend was the US naval liaison here and he had the same rights and access as an appropriately ranked UK officer. It also covers integrated intelligence systems and sharing.
Our lazy journalists and duplicitous politicians like to pretend it's something more than this, but that's just not true. The US is very robust in pursuing its own interests, and doesn't care who gets in the way.
Just to remind PBers and others that the EU Dream of a European Empire. Was also Hitlers and Fascists dream. Sans Jews of course. Oh and sans Democracy, Labour Unions, Communists, etc., and sans anyone who disagreed with the governing Oligarchy. https://twitter.com/steven_winstone/status/722314521541484544
Do you really think you are doing Leave any favours by comparing the EU to Hitler's Third Reich? To the vast majority of voters it's bonkers.
Well, here it is,...... I hope the leavers will respect my decision and that we can continue our inputs without unnecessary abuse and with respect for each other positions.
Thank you for sharing those thoughts - v interesting.
As to your point about immigration, speaking to a lot of leavers, it seems that it is arguably only here in the rarified atmosphere of PB that people are prepared to put up with EEA/EFTA and the continued four freedoms, in particular of people. Most people I speak to (= anecdote obvs), really do care about immigration and control of our borders.
Any scenario that ignores that in the event of a Leave vote will not end well.
I believe one of the reasons leave are likely to lose is because they do not have a coherent story to tell on immigration. It seems that despite the promise of a referendum the various leave groups have been more interested in fighting themselves than addressing this fundamental issue so that they could all sing from the same hymn sheet. If they had resolved the issue in a believable way they would have had a better chance of convincing the voters
We tried, I promise you. The issue here is that immigration is not actually an EU issue per se - if it were then we would have initiated transitional controls. It is an economic issue, more to do with an unsustainable economic position that can only be held up by constantly increasing the workforce/ raising GDP (rather than gdp per head). The calculation is that even post Brexit, and even with full immigration controls (WTO option), that immigration would be within 50,000 of that it is today- it would just come from different places.
Big_G_NorthWales said: "Well, here it is, I have decided to vote to remain on the 23rd June."
Taking your main reasons. Big_G_NorthWales said: "I do believe that the UK within the EU can have an impact on the organisation as it faces the many uncertainties the next few years will bring and that strong alliances can be forged to change the face of Europe."
A rational view if we had not heard this line from the Major govts from 1990 to 1997 and from the Blair /Brown govts of 1997 to 2010 and from the Cameron govts from 2010 to 2016. "in europe not run by it" etc etc
The evidence of history is overwhelming. On this promise of reform from the inside the politicians broken promises are strewn on the ground. Why conclude that if a strategy keeps failing to succeed you think "one more push" will overcome all the past failures?
Big_G_NorthWales said: "David Cameron is widely respected in Europe and he would return to the EU as the inevitable successor to the disaster that is Angela Merkel.."
Cameron's time at the top is also just a matter of months and not years. Count him out. He has neither the time, nor the inclination to reform the EU.
I think the EU is facing serious change and that there is a desire within many Countries for less Europe and more democracy. I do not believe David Cameron will only last months. There is no obvious successor and the party will need time to unify and then hopefully a eurosceptic will return to fight for democratic change within the EU
Now I have heard it all...Royal College of Midwives have come out against leaving because "EU regulations ensure women get time off for anti-natal classes".
If the government tried to scrap that, MumNet pitchfork brigade would riot within seconds.
There was a load of bollocks from the Environmental Audit Committee which seemed to imply that if it wasn't for the EU we would be wallowing in our own filth, as though we have no inherent interest in caring for our country and the health of our citizens.
Those leavers who blame everything bad on the EU are matched by a similar group of numpties who attribute everything good that has happened in the country since the 70s to the beneficence of the EU. Both groups are idiots.
Yes the EU has nurtured those impressive car emission regulations that have permitted diesil engines to cause massive harm to our city dwellers. But they are carbon friendly regulations with a side effect of deaths and chronic ill health....
I work in computing and have a keen interest in aviation, do quite often wonder that if the MSM make so many stupid errors in the two subjects I do know something about, what is the quality of the rest of their output on which I rely to inform myself?
Well quite. I fly as well, or used to. I am constantly amazed at the number of aircraft that seem to "plummet" from the sky after their engine fails, as if their wings suddenly disappeared at the same time as their propulsion. The glide ratio of a big jet is typically about 15:1, so if the engine fails at 40,000 it's going to be able to go 100 nautical miles before it reaches the ground, almost half an hour later.
Indeed. Say to someone that a plane suffering an all-engine failure at cruise height in the UK (which is statistically almost impossible in a modern ETOPS or four-engined aircraft) that they are pretty much assured an approach to a runway and they won't believe you - even though it's already been done elsewhere - by a couple of very lucky pilots who got away with the most massive screw up possible. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider
As spring springs, I miss not being in the UK and being able to go and rent a small plane or glider for the day - just to fly around the beautiful countryside.
'The Special Relationship exists and is very strong.
But it's hugely specific and narrow in scope - it refers to embedding military liaison officers in each others facilities. A close family friend was the US naval liaison here and he had the same rights and access as an appropriately ranked UK officer. It also covers integrated intelligence systems and sharing.
Our lazy journalists and duplicitous politicians like to pretend it's something more than this, but that's just not true. The US is very robust in pursuing its own interests, and doesn't care who gets in the way.'
We were like that once, too. But I think the term 'British interests' is no longer understood in Whitehall.
Big_G_NorthWales said: "Well, here it is, I have decided to vote to remain on the 23rd June."
Taking your main reasons. Big_G_NorthWales said: "I do believe that the UK within the EU can have an impact on the organisation as it faces the many uncertainties the next few years will bring and that strong alliances can be forged to change the face of Europe."
A rational view if we had not heard this line from the Major govts from 1990 to 1997 and from the Blair /Brown govts of 1997 to 2010 and from the Cameron govts from 2010 to 2016. "in europe not run by it" etc etc
The evidence of history is overwhelming. On this promise of reform from the inside the politicians broken promises are strewn on the ground. Why conclude that if a strategy keeps failing to succeed you think "one more push" will overcome all the past failures?
Big_G_NorthWales said: "David Cameron is widely respected in Europe and he would return to the EU as the inevitable successor to the disaster that is Angela Merkel.."
Cameron's time at the top is also just a matter of months and not years. Count him out. He has neither the time, nor the inclination to reform the EU.
I think the EU is facing serious change and that there is a desire within many Countries for less Europe and more democracy. I do not believe David Cameron will only last months. There is no obvious successor and the party will need time to unify and then hopefully a eurosceptic will return to fight for democratic change within the EU
Big_G_NorthWales, Cameron has one last job "win this referendum". After June he is looking for an early exit well before 2020. Last May he handed over most of the day to day management of the govt to his annointed successor Osborne. Cameron has shown very little interest into much of what goes on in Govt. A clear sign that he is demob happy and wants out. Whether a successor is lined up or not is today something Cameron cares little about, as his approach to the party shows little concern for its long term health.
Mr. NorthWales, sadly, I think the EU's on a one-track towards more integration. It might go faster or slower but the direction of travel is constant.
The single market is incomplete, the CAP is unreformed, and QMV and lack of veto power means we're more subject to the will of other countries (particularly those of the eurozone) than ever before.
Just to remind PBers and others that the EU Dream of a European Empire. Was also Hitlers and Fascists dream. Sans Jews of course. Oh and sans Democracy, Labour Unions, Communists, etc., and sans anyone who disagreed with the governing Oligarchy. https://twitter.com/steven_winstone/status/722314521541484544
Do you really think you are doing Leave any favours by comparing the EU to Hitler's Third Reich? To the vast majority of voters it's bonkers.
Now I have heard it all...Royal College of Midwives have come out against leaving because "EU regulations ensure women get time off for anti-natal classes".
If the government tried to scrap that, MumNet pitchfork brigade would riot within seconds.
There was a load of bollocks from the Environmental Audit Committee which seemed to imply that if it wasn't for the EU we would be wallowing in our own filth, as though we have no inherent interest in caring for our country and the health of our citizens.
Those leavers who blame everything bad on the EU are matched by a similar group of numpties who attribute everything good that has happened in the country since the 70s to the beneficence of the EU. Both groups are idiots.
Yes the EU has nurtured those impressive car emission regulations that have permitted diesil engines to cause massive harm to our city dwellers. But they are carbon friendly regulations with a side effect of deaths and chronic ill health....
The same EU that ignored the warnings given 2 years before the VW testing scandal broke.
Morning all, and well done Mike on the 33/1 bet. Sadiq is starting to look like a dead cert now, unless someone can find a smoking gun in his past associations.
The Tories should have gone for a much bigger personality for their candidate, Shaun Bailey would have been much better at covering the centre ground in 2016's multicultural London.
Shaun Bailey lost the one time he stood for Parliament at Hammersmith in 2010
And the feedback has been consistently negative about him since. He wanted to become the Kensington & Chelsea candidate & he was slammed by some of the people I asked about him.
Given your negative comments from the ground on both Bailey and Goldsmith, who would have been your ideal Tory candidate for MoL given that Boris declined to stand again?
Of course he is. But that is the point: Britain staying in may well be in the interests of the US and many other countries besides. And that is a point for the voters here to bear in mind. And it is useful to hear the perspectives of others on what they think may be in our best interests.
But, ultimately, the US President is concerned as to what is best for the US.
And we need to think about what is best for Britain. The two are not the same.
Indeed so.
Clearly it's in the interest of REMAIN to trumpet Obama's support just as it's in the interest of LEAVE to highlight clarion call from Putin ....
Oooppps ....
The USA is a strange beast when it comes to European politics. I wrote a piece on it for my blog back in February. The conclusion that I reached after a lot of research is that the American people are anglophile, almost to a fault, but the US political elite are anything but and in general have a very anti British approach to international policy, and seek purely to use Britain as a tool for their own gain.
The so-called "special relationship" has always struck me as a sort of British delusion to cover up the fact that from the start of the 20th century, if not before, the US was determined to supplant Britain as the premier power in the world. Even during WW2, the US looked to its own interests and did whatever it could to help dismantle Britain's Empire. It made Britain pay for the help it got. There was very little altruism involved. And that has been the case ever since. At times our interests have coincided. But that is no different to any other country. Instead of all this sentimental nonsense about special relationships, whether with the US or the EU or China or The Serene Republic of Ruritania, we should simply remember and act on Palmerston's dictum.
Completely agree. Every time I hear an American politician mention the special relationship I cringe. It is so needy and frankly beneath us.
Big_G_NorthWales said: "Well, here it is, I have decided to vote to remain on the 23rd June."
Taking your main reasons. Big_G_NorthWales said: "I do believe that the UK within the EU can have an impact on the organisation as it faces the many uncertainties the next few years will bring and that strong alliances can be forged to change the face of Europe."
A rational view if we had not heard this line from the Major govts from 1990 to 1997 and from the Blair /Brown govts of 1997 to 2010 and from the Cameron govts from 2010 to 2016. "in europe not run by it" etc etc
The evidence of history is overwhelming. On this promise of reform from the inside the politicians broken promises are strewn on the ground. Why conclude that if a strategy keeps failing to succeed you think "one more push" will overcome all the past failures?
Big_G_NorthWales said: "David Cameron is widely respected in Europe and he would return to the EU as the inevitable successor to the disaster that is Angela Merkel.."
Cameron's time at the top is also just a matter of months and not years. Count him out. He has neither the time, nor the inclination to reform the EU.
I think the EU is facing serious change and that there is a desire within many Countries for less Europe and more democracy. I do not believe David Cameron will only last months. There is no obvious successor and the party will need time to unify and then hopefully a eurosceptic will return to fight for democratic change within the EU
Big_G_NorthWales, Cameron has one last job "win this referendum". After June he is looking for an early exit well before 2020. Last May he handed over most of the day to day management of the govt to his annointed successor Osborne. Cameron has shown very little interest into much of what goes on in Govt. A clear sign that he is demob happy and wants out. Whether a successor is lined up or not is today something Cameron cares little about, as his approach to the party shows little concern for its long term health.
So when do you see Cameron actually exiting TCP assuming, for the sake of argument, that REMAIN wins the referendum?
I believe one of the reasons leave are likely to lose is because they do not have a coherent story to tell on immigration. It seems that despite the promise of a referendum the various leave groups have been more interested in fighting themselves than addressing this fundamental issue so that they could all sing from the same hymn sheet. If they had resolved the issue in a believable way they would have had a better chance of convincing the voters
We tried, I promise you. The issue here is that immigration is not actually an EU issue per se - if it were then we would have initiated transitional controls. It is an economic issue, more to do with an unsustainable economic position that can only be held up by constantly increasing the workforce/ raising GDP (rather than gdp per head). The calculation is that even post Brexit, and even with full immigration controls (WTO option), that immigration would be within 50,000 of that it is today- it would just come from different places.
Thank you for the best response I have read for a while. Brexit should have united and put forward an EFTA arrangement with the explanation above and it may well have succeeded.
Well, here it is, I have decided to vote to remain on the 23rd June. This has been quite the most difficult decision I have made in a very long time. My heart absolutely demands that we leave the nightmare that is the EU with the unelected eurocrats, red tape, European Court and indeed everything that is so wrong at the present time. However my head says that there is simply too much evidence to support the economic argument that we derive huge commercial benefits from our membership and that this is endorsed by so many organisations and Countries that it is not possible to continue to say that it is just 'project fear'. ...........
OMG Cameron fanboy opts for Remain and attempts to justify it.
Just man up and tell the truth ffs, that way you'll get more respect and less abuse
If you have read my comments you will see the turmoil in my decision. I recognise that some from leave would not be happy but I would draw your attention to my last sentence.
Turmoil? Will you be sobbing as you leave the polling station?
"David Cameron is widely respected in Europe and he would return to the EU as the inevitable successor to the disaster that is Angela Merkel,"
He has already told you he's standing down. Your post reads like that of a 15 year old girl writing about Donny Osmond
Cut it out. You were pretty unpleasant to me last week. And now you're doing it to this poster. There's no need.
Hang on a minute, you blatantly accused me of misogyny a while back, completely unfounded, you can't have it both ways.
You write very well, that doesn't mean you can get away with unfair accusations.
Blackburn, you can make the same points without abusing the parentage of the writer. We have enough problems with a few of the REMAINers on here, so please do not let the LEAVE side down. Thanks.
Britain’s prosperity depends on the gains from specialisation that international trade allows. EU member states are its main trading partners. Mr Osborne reasonably points out that the greater Britain’s access to that single market, the greater the price to be paid. Brexit, like every other economic question, is no free lunch. Its advocates need to tell voters how much they will need to pay.
Well, here it is, I have decided to vote to remain on the 23rd June. This has been quite the most difficult decision I have made in a very long time. My heart absolutely demands that we leave the nightmare that is the EU with the unelected eurocrats, red tape, European Court and indeed everything that is so wrong at the present time. However my head says that there is simply too much evidence to support the economic argument that we derive huge commercial benefits from our membership and that this is endorsed by so many organisations and Countries that it is not possible to continue to say that it is just 'project fear'. Furthermore, leave have not been able to convince me that they will be able to control immigration and without that there is no point in facing the years of uncertainty that would inevitably follow an exit. I do believe that the UK within the EU can have an impact on the organisation as it faces the many uncertainties the next few years will bring and that strong alliances can be forged to change the face of Europe. David Cameron is widely respected in Europe and he would return to the EU as the inevitable successor to the disaster that is Angela Merkel, and hopefully with a unified much more eurosceptic cabinet. Europe is changing to a much more sceptical population and I am not at all certain that the eurozone itself will survive and certainly I am convinced that Turkey will not obtain membership for decades. I know some on this forum will say that I have always been remain but that is just not true. I hope the leavers will respect my decision and that we can continue our inputs without unnecessary abuse and with respect for each other positions.
OMG Cameron fanboy opts for Remain and attempts to justify it.
Just man up and tell the truth ffs, that way you'll get more respect and less abuse
If you have read my comments you will see the turmoil in my decision. I recognise that some from leave would not be happy but I would draw your attention to my last sentence.
Turmoil? Will you be sobbing as you leave the polling station?
"David Cameron is widely respected in Europe and he would return to the EU as the inevitable successor to the disaster that is Angela Merkel,"
He has already told you he's standing down. Your post reads like that of a 15 year old girl writing about Donny Osmond
Cut it out. You were pretty unpleasant to me last week. And now you're doing it to this poster. There's no need.
It is what he does I'm afraid. The reason why some of us post a lot less now.
Just to remind PBers and others that the EU Dream of a European Empire. Was also Hitlers and Fascists dream. Sans Jews of course. Oh and sans Democracy, Labour Unions, Communists, etc., and sans anyone who disagreed with the governing Oligarchy. https://twitter.com/steven_winstone/status/722314521541484544
Do you really think you are doing Leave any favours by comparing the EU to Hitler's Third Reich? To the vast majority of voters it's bonkers.
But not necessarily with Britain as a member of it...
Rather silly to use the pronoun 'we' in that case. I thought he was supposed to be a consummate master of the English language.
'If we are to form the United States of Europe or whatever name or form it may take, we must begin now.'
He sought to be involved in the process of building it, because of the physical presence Britain still had on the continent due to the rebuilding and security effort after the war. But I haven't found much evidence outside that quote that Churchill advocated British membership per se. It's one of these arguments that comes up from time to time which is of historical interest, but probably little modern significance.
....Our lazy journalists and duplicitous politicians like to pretend it's something more than this, but that's just not true. The US is very robust in pursuing its own interests, and doesn't care who gets in the way.' We were like that once, too. But I think the term 'British interests' is no longer understood in Whitehall.
We can see in the defeatist attitudes of our establishment, how they achieved so little from the EU renegotiations and are now are so fearful what the "powerful" EU countries will do to us if we leave. We need a Leader that believes in the country. Someone similar to Margaret Thatcher. Andrea Leadsom?
Although Gove put in a confident performance - he is one of the very best debaters in UK politics - some of his answers, particularly on economics, left quite a lot to be desired. For example, he had no plausible answer to the points Nick Robinson was making about non-tariff barriers and what French and German ministers are saying about trade. His response to the question about all major economic organisations saying the UK would be poorer if it left the EU was also fairly weak.
Big_G_NorthWales said: "Well, here it is, I have decided to vote to remain on the 23rd June."
Taking your main reasons. Big_G_NorthWales said: "I do believe that the UK within the EU can have an impact on the organisation as it faces the many uncertainties the next few years will bring and that strong alliances can be forged to change the face of Europe."
A rational view if we had not heard this line from the Major govts from 1990 to 1997 and from the Blair /Brown govts of 1997 to 2010 and from the Cameron govts from 2010 to 2016. "in europe not run by it" etc etc
The evidence of history is overwhelming. On this promise of reform from the inside the politicians broken promises are strewn on the ground. Why conclude that if a strategy keeps failing to succeed you think "one more push" will overcome all the past failures?
Big_G_NorthWales said: "David Cameron is widely respected in Europe and he would return to the EU as the inevitable successor to the disaster that is Angela Merkel.."
Cameron's time at the top is also just a matter of months and not years. Count him out. He has neither the time, nor the inclination to reform the EU.
I think the EU is facing serious change and that there is a desire within many Countries for less Europe and more democracy. I do not believe David Cameron will only last months. There is no obvious successor and the party will need time to unify and then hopefully a eurosceptic will return to fight for democratic change within the EU
Big_G_NorthWales, Cameron has one last job "win this referendum". After June he is looking for an early exit well before 2020. Last May he handed over most of the day to day management of the govt to his annointed successor Osborne. Cameron has shown very little interest into much of what goes on in Govt. A clear sign that he is demob happy and wants out. Whether a successor is lined up or not is today something Cameron cares little about, as his approach to the party shows little concern for its long term health.
You may well be right but in the event of a remain vote the UK must play a much more eurosceptic role and lead the increasing number of Countries that want democratic change
Spurs last night was the best away performance I've seen in years, those of us who've endured decades of disappointment are drooling right now. Chelsea play 19 games at home, to their fans the Spurs game is the biggest, going there and listening to a section of their vile fans hissing is disgusting. They'll roll over if it comes down to the last game of the season, but to be fair Leicester should have done enough by then.
Mr 63, I think it's time for me to concede my bet with you. I owe you 30 quid as Spurs are clearly now going to be in the top 4.
Please send me a PM and we can agree how best to settle up.
Britain’s prosperity depends on the gains from specialisation that international trade allows. EU member states are its main trading partners. Mr Osborne reasonably points out that the greater Britain’s access to that single market, the greater the price to be paid. Brexit, like every other economic question, is no free lunch. Its advocates need to tell voters how much they will need to pay.
In reality, the short term effects of leaving the EU will be economically neutral. I can't see any obvious Brexit outside the EFTA/EEA route - because after all, it will be the current government/Civil Service that is negotiating it. They are risk averse.
In the long term, it will depend entirely on the political decisions we make in the UK, as we will have much more freedom as a politically independent nation. IT is impossible to make long term economic claims, as we just cannot predict the actions of the UK voter.
....Our lazy journalists and duplicitous politicians like to pretend it's something more than this, but that's just not true. The US is very robust in pursuing its own interests, and doesn't care who gets in the way.' We were like that once, too. But I think the term 'British interests' is no longer understood in Whitehall.
We can see in the defeatist attitudes of our establishment, how they achieved so little from the EU renegotiations and are now are so fearful what the "powerful" EU countries will do to us if we leave.
It pervades every part of their thinking. You should ask a relative of mine who runs an overseas oil exploration firm what he thinks of the attitudes of local FCO representatives he has had to deal with (and how it contrasts with the approach of their US, French and German opposite numbers). He generally uses a five-letter word starting with 'c' to describe them.
I am sorry you have come to that conclusion, not least because I believe that almost everyone of the points you have made to justify it are wrong. The exceptions of course are Turkey and immigration.
I do not believe Turkey will enter he EU in my lifetime (which I hope is several more decades yet)
I also do not believe there will be a solution which will be able to balance trade and migration in the immediate aftermath of a Leave vote. That said although I am not concerned by it I do understand I am in a minority on this and believe that there is an overwhelming pressure to do something about migration to the UK from the EU. As a result of failing to deal with this effectively I believe we will see far more difficult times ahead and I think this is the issue that will destroy the UK relationship with the EU in a far more fractious manner than would otherwise have been the case.
As for your other points, as people have already pointed out, Cameron will not be around for long. Personally I think it will be far less time than some on here think as I don't see him surviving a close Remain vote for very long at all.
I think you are completely wrong about the economic benefits of EU membership. Whilst the single market has helped to some extent, the costs and the vast balance of payments deficit at over £100 billion a year now make the EU a very poor deal for us.
The idea that we can have any influence in the EU is indeed the very poorest of your arguments. The last 3 decades should have shown you that such a view is a pipe dream and if the EU were unwilling to budge an inch when we threatened to Leave they are certainly not going to give way at all once we have decided to stay. The UK has no real influence at all in the EU and that is how it will continue.
A Remain vote condemns us to ever diminishing influence in the world, economic and political stagnation and a continual erosion of democracy.
Mr. NorthWales, sadly, I think the EU's on a one-track towards more integration. It might go faster or slower but the direction of travel is constant.
The single market is incomplete, the CAP is unreformed, and QMV and lack of veto power means we're more subject to the will of other countries (particularly those of the eurozone) than ever before.
My argument is that this is far from certain. There is a Europe wide movement against the eurocrats and lack of accountability and over the next two or three years events may well overtake europe and that as a member we can and should have an influence on the many changes that will be forthcoming
....Our lazy journalists and duplicitous politicians like to pretend it's something more than this, but that's just not true. The US is very robust in pursuing its own interests, and doesn't care who gets in the way.' We were like that once, too. But I think the term 'British interests' is no longer understood in Whitehall.
We can see in the defeatist attitudes of our establishment, how they achieved so little from the EU renegotiations and are now are so fearful what the "powerful" EU countries will do to us if we leave. We need a Leader that believes in the country. Someone similar to Margaret Thatcher. Andrea Leadsom?
I am appalled at the low opinion our leaders have of the UK, its potential and its people. It is quite an eye opener.
Still, this referendum is revealing people for who they really are. The truth is often extremely bitter, but truth it is, nevertheless.
Big_G_NorthWales said: "Well, here it is, I have decided to vote to remain on the 23rd June."
Taking your main reasons. Big_G_NorthWales said: "I do believe that the UK within the EU can have an impact on the organisation as it faces the many uncertainties the next few years will bring and that strong alliances can be forged to change the face of Europe."
A rational view if we had not heard this line from the Major govts from 1990 to 1997 and from the Blair /Brown govts of 1997 to 2010 and from the Cameron govts from 2010 to 2016. "in europe not run by it" etc etc
The evidence of history is overwhelming. On this promise of reform from the inside the politicians broken promises are strewn on the ground. Why conclude that if a strategy keeps failing to succeed you think "one more push" will overcome all the past failures?
Big_G_NorthWales said: "David Cameron is widely respected in Europe and he would return to the EU as the inevitable successor to the disaster that is Angela Merkel.."
Cameron's time at the top is also just a matter of months and not years. Count him out. He has neither the time, nor the inclination to reform the EU.
I think the EU is facing serious change and that there is a desire within many Countries for less Europe and more democracy. I do not believe David Cameron will only last months. There is no obvious successor and the party will need time to unify and then hopefully a eurosceptic will return to fight for democratic change within the EU
Big_G_NorthWales, Cameron has one last job "win this referendum". After June he is looking for an early exit well before 2020. Last May he handed over most of the day to day management of the govt to his annointed successor Osborne. Cameron has shown very little interest into much of what goes on in Govt. A clear sign that he is demob happy and wants out. Whether a successor is lined up or not is today something Cameron cares little about, as his approach to the party shows little concern for its long term health.
You may well be right but in the event of a remain vote the UK must play a much more eurosceptic role and lead the increasing number of Countries that want democratic change
The problem is a remain vote will be taken as a clear signal for even further integration. Furthermore countries in the Euro NEED more integration for it all to work properly.
Big_G_NorthWales said: "Well, here it is, I have decided to vote to remain on the 23rd June."
Taking your main reasons. Big_G_NorthWales said: "I do believe that the UK within the EU can have an impact on the organisation as it faces the many uncertainties the next few years will bring and that strong alliances can be forged to change the face of Europe."
A rational view if we had not heard this line from the Major govts from 1990 to 1997 and from the Blair /Brown govts of 1997 to 2010 and from the Cameron govts from 2010 to 2016. "in europe not run by it" etc etc
The evidence of history is overwhelming. On this promise of reform from the inside the politicians broken promises are strewn on the ground. Why conclude that if a strategy keeps failing to succeed you think "one more push" will overcome all the past failures?
Big_G_NorthWales said: "David Cameron is widely respected in Europe and he would return to the EU as the inevitable successor to the disaster that is Angela Merkel.."
Cameron's time at the top is also just a matter of months and not years. Count him out. He has neither the time, nor the inclination to reform the EU.
I think the EU is facing serious change and that there is a desire within many Countries for less Europe and more democracy. I do not believe David Cameron will only last months. There is no obvious successor and the party will need time to unify and then hopefully a eurosceptic will return to fight for democratic change within the EU
Big_G_NorthWales, Cameron has one last job "win this referendum". After June he is looking for an early exit well before 2020. Last May he handed over most of the day to day management of the govt to his annointed successor Osborne. Cameron has shown very little interest into much of what goes on in Govt. A clear sign that he is demob happy and wants out. Whether a successor is lined up or not is today something Cameron cares little about, as his approach to the party shows little concern for its long term health.
You may well be right but in the event of a remain vote the UK must play a much more eurosceptic role and lead the increasing number of Countries that want democratic change
They will not. Once we have decided to stay we have lost any tiny bit of influence we might have once had. Put simply we will be told we have had our chance and made our decision and now we should shut up and let the rest of Europe get on with its project.
Morning all, and well done Mike on the 33/1 bet. Sadiq is starting to look like a dead cert now, unless someone can find a smoking gun in his past associations.
The Tories should have gone for a much bigger personality for their candidate, Shaun Bailey would have been much better at covering the centre ground in 2016's multicultural London.
Shaun Bailey lost the one time he stood for Parliament at Hammersmith in 2010
Yes he did and it was a huge disappointment. Nothing wrong with contesting and losing a seat.
Story is he was lazy and didn't take advice - i.e. not a good candidate. It's why he hasn't had another chance. This is all second/third hand information, but I wasn't impressed when he spoke at the Kensington hustings
You can't have been listening and I wouldn't take other peoples' word for anything much. He was not lazy and was out on the streets often and regularly. He is a great speaker, and had, at one gathering, a group of let's call them diverse (ie out of towner) mainly poshos eating out of his hand.
I was listening at Kensington, and I thought him trite and unprepared. I liked Charlotte Vere the best (and voted for her), but she never had a chance vs Vicky Borthwick.
The lazy/not listening to advice point was second/third hand (as I mentioned) but from someone with good judgement whose views I rate highly.
Safe to say Gove's intervention this morning has not received Universal acclaim
@bbclaurak: On way to Michael Gove's speech on EU - will he have more answers on economic plan?
I am guessing not...
What's your 'vision for Britain if we remainremain.
Vassal state? stung for ever more money to pay for Europe's grand mistakes? less control of our lives and more decisions taken by bureaucrats? key industries filleted and given to more influential countries?
Big_G_NorthWales said: "Well, here it is, I have decided to vote to remain on the 23rd June."
Taking your main reasons. Big_G_NorthWales said: "I do believe that the UK within the EU can have an impact on the organisation as it faces the many uncertainties the next few years will bring and that strong alliances can be forged to change the face of Europe."
A rational view if we had not heard this line from the Major govts from 1990 to 1997 and from the Blair /Brown govts of 1997 to 2010 and from the Cameron govts from 2010 to 2016. "in europe not run by it" etc etc
The evidence of history is overwhelming. On this promise of reform from the inside the politicians broken promises are strewn on the ground. Why conclude that if a strategy keeps failing to succeed you think "one more push" will overcome all the past failures?
Big_G_NorthWales said: "David Cameron is widely respected in Europe and he would return to the EU as the inevitable successor to the disaster that is Angela Merkel.."
Cameron's time at the top is also just a matter of months and not years. Count him out. He has neither the time, nor the inclination to reform the EU.
I think the EU is facing serious change and that there is a desire within many Countries for less Europe and more democracy. I do not believe David Cameron will only last months. There is no obvious successor and the party will need time to unify and then hopefully a eurosceptic will return to fight for democratic change within the EU
Big_G_NorthWales, Cameron has one last job "win this referendum". After June he is looking for an early exit well before 2020. Last May he handed over most of the day to day management of the govt to his annointed successor Osborne. Cameron has shown very little interest into much of what goes on in Govt. A clear sign that he is demob happy and wants out. Whether a successor is lined up or not is today something Cameron cares little about, as his approach to the party shows little concern for its long term health.
You may well be right but in the event of a remain vote the UK must play a much more eurosceptic role and lead the increasing number of Countries that want democratic change
The problem is a remain vote will be taken as a clear signal for even further integration. Furthermore countries in the Euro NEED more integration for it all to work properly.
Yes it's depressing to read this fantasy being repeated over and over again.
'Europe is going our way' is what people like Cameron and Osborne have been saying for 25 years. It isn't true and it isn't going to be true.
Big_G_NorthWales said: "Well, here it is, I have decided to vote to remain on the 23rd June."
Taking your main reasons. Big_G_NorthWales said: "I do believe that the UK within the EU can have an impact on the organisation as it faces the many uncertainties the next few years will bring and that strong alliances can be forged to change the face of Europe."
A rational view if we had not heard this line from the Major govts from 1990 to 1997 and from the Blair /Brown govts of 1997 to 2010 and from the Cameron govts from 2010 to 2016. "in europe not run by it" etc etc
The evidence of history is overwhelming. On this promise of reform from the inside the politicians broken promises are strewn on the ground. Why conclude that if a strategy keeps failing to succeed you think "one more push" will overcome all the past failures?
Big_G_NorthWales said: "David Cameron is widely respected in Europe and he would return to the EU as the inevitable successor to the disaster that is Angela Merkel.."
Cameron's time at the top is also just a matter of months and not years. Count him out. He has neither the time, nor the inclination to reform the EU.
I think the EU is facing serious change and that there is a desire within many Countries for less Europe and more democracy. I do not believe David Cameron will only last months. There is no obvious successor and the party will need time to unify and then hopefully a eurosceptic will return to fight for democratic change within the EU
Big_G_NorthWales, Cameron has one last job "win this referendum". After June he is looking for an early exit well before 2020. Last May he handed over most of the day to day management of the govt to his annointed successor Osborne. Cameron has shown very little interest into much of what goes on in Govt. A clear sign that he is demob happy and wants out. Whether a successor is lined up or not is today something Cameron cares little about, as his approach to the party shows little concern for its long term health.
You may well be right but in the event of a remain vote the UK must play a much more eurosceptic role and lead the increasing number of Countries that want democratic change
The problem is a remain vote will be taken as a clear signal for even further integration. Furthermore countries in the Euro NEED more integration for it all to work properly.
I do accept that to an extent. However change is coming in Europe and further integration is not certain as events will have an impact on many issues in europe. That is why I believe we should be at the table with a strong eurosceptic presence
Big_G_NorthWales said: "Well, here it is, I have decided to vote to remain on the 23rd June."
Taking your main reasons. Big_G_NorthWales said: "I do believe that the UK within the EU can have an impact on the organisation as it faces the many uncertainties the next few years will bring and that strong alliances can be forged to change the face of Europe."
A rational view if we had not heard this line from the Major govts from 1990 to 1997 and from the Blair /Brown govts of 1997 to 2010 and from the Cameron govts from 2010 to 2016. "in europe not run by it" etc etc
The evidence of history is overwhelming. On this promise of reform from the inside the politicians broken promises are strewn on the ground. Why conclude that if a strategy keeps failing to succeed you think "one more push" will overcome all the past failures?
Big_G_NorthWales said: "David Cameron is widely respected in Europe and he would return to the EU as the inevitable successor to the disaster that is Angela Merkel.."
Cameron's time at the top is also just a matter of months and not years. Count him out. He has neither the time, nor the inclination to reform the EU.
I think the EU is facing serious change and that there is a desire within many Countries for less Europe and more democracy. I do not believe David Cameron will only last months. There is no obvious successor and the party will need time to unify and then hopefully a eurosceptic will return to fight for democratic change within the EU
Big_G_NorthWales, Cameron has one last job "win this referendum". After June he is looking for an early exit well before 2020. Last May he handed over most of the day to day management of the govt to his annointed successor Osborne. Cameron has shown very little interest into much of what goes on in Govt. A clear sign that he is demob happy and wants out. Whether a successor is lined up or not is today something Cameron cares little about, as his approach to the party shows little concern for its long term health.
You may well be right but in the event of a remain vote the UK must play a much more eurosceptic role and lead the increasing number of Countries that want democratic change
How? Look at our feeble Foreign office with its minuscule influence with EU countries as demonstrated by the renegotiations outcome. Look at how well Cameron did to get a better person than Juncker chosen as one of the EU Presidents.... etc
Sir you are in the words of Oscar Wilde demonstrating a triumph of hope over experience.
Big_G_NorthWales said: "Well, here it is, I have decided to vote to remain on the 23rd June."
Taking your main reasons. Big_G_NorthWales said: "I do believe that the UK within the EU can have an impact on the organisation as it faces the many uncertainties the next few years will bring and that strong alliances can be forged to change the face of Europe."
A rational view if we had not heard this line from the Major govts from 1990 to 1997 and from the Blair /Brown govts of 1997 to 2010 and from the Cameron govts from 2010 to 2016. "in europe not run by it" etc etc
The evidence of history is overwhelming. On this promise of reform from the inside the politicians broken promises are strewn on the ground. Why conclude that if a strategy keeps failing to succeed you think "one more push" will overcome all the past failures?
Big_G_NorthWales said: "David Cameron is widely respected in Europe and he would return to the EU as the inevitable successor to the disaster that is Angela Merkel.."
Cameron's time at the top is also just a matter of months and not years. Count him out. He has neither the time, nor the inclination to reform the EU.
I think the EU is facing serious change and that there is a desire within many Countries for less Europe and more democracy. I do not believe David Cameron will only last months. There is no obvious successor and the party will need time to unify and then hopefully a eurosceptic will return to fight for democratic change within the EU
Big_G_NorthWales, Cameron has one last job "win this referendum". After June he is looking for an early exit well before 2020. Last May he handed over most of the day to day management of the govt to his annointed successor Osborne. Cameron has shown very little interest into much of what goes on in Govt. A clear sign that he is demob happy and wants out. Whether a successor is lined up or not is today something Cameron cares little about, as his approach to the party shows little concern for its long term health.
So when do you see Cameron actually exiting TCP assuming, for the sake of argument, that REMAIN wins the referendum?
If it is a big win he will stay around for a year or two to sort out party differences and leave own his own terms.
If it is a close win he will be gone very quickly. The bad feeling in the party and in the country will make his position untenable.
Of course he is. But that is the point: Britain staying in may well be in the interests of the US and many other countries besides. And that is a point for the voters here to bear in mind. And it is useful to hear the perspectives of others on what they think may be in our best interests.
But, ultimately, the US President is concerned as to what is best for the US.
And we need to think about what is best for Britain. The two are not the same.
Indeed so.
Clearly it's in the interest of REMAIN to trumpet Obama's support just as it's in the interest of LEAVE to highlight clarion call from Putin ....
Oooppps ....
The USA is a strange beast when it comes to European politics. I wrote a piece on it for my blog back in February. The conclusion that I reached after a lot of research is that the American people are anglophile, almost to a fault, but the US political elite are anything but and in general have a very anti British approach to international policy, and seek purely to use Britain as a tool for their own gain.
The so-called "special relationship" has always struck me as a sort of British delusion to cover up the fact that from the start of the 20th century, if not before, the US was determined to supplant Britain as the premier power in the world. Even during WW2, the US looked to its own interests and did whatever it could to help dismantle Britain's Empire. It made Britain pay for the help it got. There was very little altruism involved. And that has been the case ever since. At times our interests have coincided. But that is no different to any other country. Instead of all this sentimental nonsense about special relationships, whether with the US or the EU or China or The Serene Republic of Ruritania, we should simply remember and act on Palmerston's dictum.
The Special Relationship exists and is very strong.
But it's hugely specific and narrow in scope - it refers to embedding military liaison officers in each others facilities. A close family friend was the US naval liaison here and he had the same rights and access as an appropriately ranked UK officer. It also covers integrated intelligence systems and sharing.
Our lazy journalists and duplicitous politicians like to pretend it's something more than this, but that's just not true. The US is very robust in pursuing its own interests, and doesn't care who gets in the way.
Whereas our Foreign Office is assiduous in pursuing the interests of other countries.
Britain’s prosperity depends on the gains from specialisation that international trade allows. EU member states are its main trading partners. Mr Osborne reasonably points out that the greater Britain’s access to that single market, the greater the price to be paid. Brexit, like every other economic question, is no free lunch. Its advocates need to tell voters how much they will need to pay.
Big_G_NorthWales said: "Well, here it is, I have decided to vote to remain on the 23rd June."
Taking your main reasons. Big_G_NorthWales said: "I do believe that the UK within the EU can have an impact on the organisation as it faces the many uncertainties the next few years will bring and that strong alliances can be forged to change the face of Europe."
A rational view if we had not heard this line from the Major govts from 1990 to 1997 and from the Blair /Brown govts of 1997 to 2010 and from the Cameron govts from 2010 to 2016. "in europe not run by it" etc etc
The evidence of history is overwhelming. .....?
Big_G_NorthWales said: "David Cameron is widely respected in Europe and he would return to the EU as the inevitable successor to the disaster that is Angela Merkel.."
Cameron's time at the top is also just a matter of months and not years. Count him out. He has neither the time, nor the inclination to reform the EU.
I think the EU is facing serious change and that there is a desire within many Countries for less Europe and more democracy. I do not believe David Cameron will only last months. There is no obvious successor and the party will need time to unify and then hopefully a eurosceptic will return to fight for democratic change within the EU
Big_G_NorthWales, Cameron has one last job "win this referendum". After June he is looking for an early exit well before 2020. Last May he handed over most of the day to day management of the govt to his annointed successor Osborne. Cameron has shown very little interest into much of what goes on in Govt. A clear sign that he is demob happy and wants out. Whether a successor is lined up or not is today something Cameron cares little about, as his approach to the party shows little concern for its long term health.
You may well be right but in the event of a remain vote the UK must play a much more eurosceptic role and lead the increasing number of Countries that want democratic change
The problem is a remain vote will be taken as a clear signal for even further integration. Furthermore countries in the Euro NEED more integration for it all to work properly.
Yes it's depressing to read this fantasy being repeated over and over again.
'Europe is going our way' is what people like Cameron and Osborne have been saying for 25 years. It isn't true and it isn't going to be true.
The 5 Presidents report sets out quite clearly that the direction of travel is going. Reform of the EU is just not on the agenda. Now our Govt says "oh yes but that will not affect us"....... Oh really?
"A Remain vote condemns us to ever diminishing influence in the world, economic and political stagnation and a continual erosion of democracy."
Can someone tell me how this is not a negative, defeatist attitude?
More positivity:
If we vote to stay we are not settling for a secure status quo, we are voting to be hostages locked in the back of the car driven head-long towards deeper EU integration.
"A Remain vote condemns us to ever diminishing influence in the world, economic and political stagnation and a continual erosion of democracy."
Can someone tell me how this is not a negative, defeatist attitude?
Who said I was not allowed to be negative? I have spent a huge amount of time on here making a positive case for Leave - indeed more so than most of the official campaigners.
But in the end of course one of the reasons I want us to Leave is because I believe the EU has been disastrous for the UK and that it will only get worse after a Remain vote. Why should I pretend otherwise?
One can win a battle, while losing the war. If people feel that they were basically blackmailed into voting Remain, a narrow win won't settle the issue.
Mr. NorthWales, sadly, I think the EU's on a one-track towards more integration. It might go faster or slower but the direction of travel is constant.
The single market is incomplete, the CAP is unreformed, and QMV and lack of veto power means we're more subject to the will of other countries (particularly those of the eurozone) than ever before.
My argument is that this is far from certain. There is a Europe wide movement against the eurocrats and lack of accountability and over the next two or three years events may well overtake europe and that as a member we can and should have an influence on the many changes that will be forthcoming
Politicians in the UK have been saying that for 30 years. It is as fanciful now as it was in the past - more so indeed once we remove the threat of leaving.
Yes the EU has nurtured those impressive car emission regulations that have permitted diesil engines to cause massive harm to our city dwellers. But they are carbon friendly regulations with a side effect of deaths and chronic ill health....
Perhaps the most important piece of what we would now call environmental regulation in UK history was the Clean Air Act, which dates back to the 1950s. But apparently we now need to be told by the EU that thousands of people dying due to pollution is a bad thing.
....Our lazy journalists and duplicitous politicians like to pretend it's something more than this, but that's just not true. The US is very robust in pursuing its own interests, and doesn't care who gets in the way.' We were like that once, too. But I think the term 'British interests' is no longer understood in Whitehall.
We can see in the defeatist attitudes of our establishment, how they achieved so little from the EU renegotiations and are now are so fearful what the "powerful" EU countries will do to us if we leave. We need a Leader that believes in the country. Someone similar to Margaret Thatcher. Andrea Leadsom?
I am appalled at the low opinion our leaders have of the UK, its potential and its people. It is quite an eye opener.
Still, this referendum is revealing people for who they really are. The truth is often extremely bitter, but truth it is, nevertheless.
Indeed. The chances of me returning to the Tory party have receded into the distance now. I am rapidly becoming one of the 'anyone but' crowd.
@bbclaurak: On way to Michael Gove's speech on EU - will he have more answers on economic plan?
I am guessing not...
There was something slightly odd about Gove's R4 interview - his normal passion seemed dimmed - a bit like he was 'going through the motions' - not what I was expecting at all.....
I am sorry you have come to that conclusion, not least because I believe that almost everyone of the points you have made to justify it are wrong. The exceptions of course are Turkey and immigration.
I do not believe Turkey will enter he EU in my lifetime (which I hope is several more decades yet)
I also do not believe there will be a solution which will be able to balance trade and migration in the immediate aftermath of a Leave vote. That said although I am not concerned by it I do understand I am in a minority on this and believe that there is an overwhelming pressure to do something about migration to the UK from the EU. As a result of failing to deal with this effectively I believe we will see far more difficult times ahead and I think this is the issue that will destroy the UK relationship with the EU in a far more fractious manner than would otherwise have been the case.
As for your other points, as people have already pointed out, Cameron will not be around for long. Personally I think it will be far less time than some on here think as I don't see him surviving a close Remain vote for very long at all.
I think you are completely wrong about the economic benefits of EU membership. Whilst the single market has helped to some extent, the costs and the vast balance of payments deficit at over £100 billion a year now make the EU a very poor deal for us.
The idea that we can have any influence in the EU is indeed the very poorest of your arguments. The last 3 decades should have shown you that such a view is a pipe dream and if the EU were unwilling to budge an inch when we threatened to Leave they are certainly not going to give way at all once we have decided to stay. The UK has no real influence at all in the EU and that is how it will continue.
A Remain vote condemns us to ever diminishing influence in the world, economic and political stagnation and a continual erosion of democracy.
Thank you for your reply and your observations. I hesitated today before I declared for remain because I was concerned that I could receive abuse and really at 72 I do not need it. However, I had said that I would make my decision known and the last few days have convinced me of the benefits for remain, but that if that is the result we must go into Europe and fight for the things most remainer's and those for leave want in more democracy and accountability.Most leavers have been very polite on their responses apart from one and it is my sincere belief that for political betting to continue to be a source of political discourse contributors should be able to put forward their views knowing that it is part of a political dialogue and not an invitation to be trolled
....Our lazy journalists and duplicitous politicians like to pretend it's something more than this, but that's just not true. The US is very robust in pursuing its own interests, and doesn't care who gets in the way.' We were like that once, too. But I think the term 'British interests' is no longer understood in Whitehall.
We can see in the defeatist attitudes of our establishment, how they achieved so little from the EU renegotiations and are now are so fearful what the "powerful" EU countries will do to us if we leave. We need a Leader that believes in the country. Someone similar to Margaret Thatcher. Andrea Leadsom?
I am appalled at the low opinion our leaders have of the UK, its potential and its people. It is quite an eye opener.
Still, this referendum is revealing people for who they really are. The truth is often extremely bitter, but truth it is, nevertheless.
Indeed. The chances of me returning to the Tory party have receded into the distance now. I am rapidly becoming one of the 'anyone but' crowd.
You'd think that were it not for the EU, the UK would be a failed State, if you listened to Osborne and co.
Comments
"David Cameron is widely respected in Europe and he would return to the EU as the inevitable successor to the disaster that is Angela Merkel,"
He has already told you he's standing down. Your post reads like that of a 15 year old girl writing about Donny Osmond
@SunPolitics: EXCLUSIVE: Government tasks secret team of civil servants to organise anti-Brexit messages from world leaders https://t.co/ASiEWEFEzU
http://www.totalpolitics.com/blog/464311/remain-are-repeating-the-mistakes-of-the-scottish-no-campaign.thtml
Taking your main reasons.
Big_G_NorthWales said: "I do believe that the UK within the EU can have an impact on the organisation as it faces the many uncertainties the next few years will bring and that strong alliances can be forged to change the face of Europe."
A rational view if we had not heard this line from the Major govts from 1990 to 1997 and from the Blair /Brown govts of 1997 to 2010 and from the Cameron govts from 2010 to 2016.
"in europe not run by it" etc etc
The evidence of history is overwhelming. On this promise of reform from the inside the politicians broken promises are strewn on the ground. Why conclude that if a strategy keeps failing to succeed you think "one more push" will overcome all the past failures?
Big_G_NorthWales said: "David Cameron is widely respected in Europe and he would return to the EU as the inevitable successor to the disaster that is Angela Merkel.."
Cameron's time at the top is also just a matter of months and not years. Count him out. He has neither the time, nor the inclination to reform the EU.
"Obama is, and has long been, popular in the UK. Polled by Pew Resarch in June 2015, 76 per cent of British voters trusted him "to do the right thing regarding world affairs" (and most probably judge the US to have a passing interest in our EU membership)"
Leavers would be foolish to heap their usual abuse on anyone who critisise Brexit, but, hey, who am I to stop them shooting themselves in the foot!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ln4SRnt4VE0
You take yourself far too seriously, like many on here, this place has zero influence, nobody ever changes their mind. I amuse myself from time to time by poking fun at lily livered sycophants like you.
Those leavers who blame everything bad on the EU are matched by a similar group of numpties who attribute everything good that has happened in the country since the 70s to the beneficence of the EU. Both groups are idiots.
here's another one
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/7085834/Five-claims-from-George-Osbornes-controversial-pro-EU-report-versus-the-reality.html
basically they think George is fibbing
and that's Tom Newton Dunn who you were ardently tweeting yesterday - so it must be true.
Yesterday was reported during the day and evening as a "mini triumph" in the main broadcasting media. it was all about Project Fear. But tucked away in the 200 pages was the Govt/REMAIN agreeing that we are getting 3 million more immigrants if we stay. 3 million more is a very big number for the voters to swallow and accept.
You write very well, that doesn't mean you can get away with unfair accusations.
But it's hugely specific and narrow in scope - it refers to embedding military liaison officers in each others facilities. A close family friend was the US naval liaison here and he had the same rights and access as an appropriately ranked UK officer. It also covers integrated intelligence systems and sharing.
Our lazy journalists and duplicitous politicians like to pretend it's something more than this, but that's just not true. The US is very robust in pursuing its own interests, and doesn't care who gets in the way.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider
As spring springs, I miss not being in the UK and being able to go and rent a small plane or glider for the day - just to fly around the beautiful countryside.
'The Special Relationship exists and is very strong.
But it's hugely specific and narrow in scope - it refers to embedding military liaison officers in each others facilities. A close family friend was the US naval liaison here and he had the same rights and access as an appropriately ranked UK officer. It also covers integrated intelligence systems and sharing.
Our lazy journalists and duplicitous politicians like to pretend it's something more than this, but that's just not true. The US is very robust in pursuing its own interests, and doesn't care who gets in the way.'
We were like that once, too. But I think the term 'British interests' is no longer understood in Whitehall.
The single market is incomplete, the CAP is unreformed, and QMV and lack of veto power means we're more subject to the will of other countries (particularly those of the eurozone) than ever before.
'If we are to form the United States of Europe or whatever name or form it may take, we must begin now.'
For all my "fans" so obsessed with Twitter, there does not appear to be a single one among them who understands it
QC Grieve schools Gove on law, like he's a jobbing journo https://t.co/NHXuBpCahA
CLUE: This is not a ReTweet...
I believe one of the reasons leave are likely to lose is because they do not have a coherent story to tell on immigration. It seems that despite the promise of a referendum the various leave groups have been more interested in fighting themselves than addressing this fundamental issue so that they could all sing from the same hymn sheet. If they had resolved the issue in a believable way they would have had a better chance of convincing the voters
We tried, I promise you. The issue here is that immigration is not actually an EU issue per se - if it were then we would have initiated transitional controls. It is an economic issue, more to do with an unsustainable economic position that can only be held up by constantly increasing the workforce/ raising GDP (rather than gdp per head). The calculation is that even post Brexit, and even with full immigration controls (WTO option), that immigration would be within 50,000 of that it is today- it would just come from different places.
Thank you for the best response I have read for a while. Brexit should have united and put forward an EFTA arrangement with the explanation above and it may well have succeeded.
https://t.co/62qmfHsckK
Safe to say Gove's intervention this morning has not received Universal acclaim
@bbclaurak: On way to Michael Gove's speech on EU - will he have more answers on economic plan?
I am guessing not...
Although Gove put in a confident performance - he is one of the very best debaters in UK politics - some of his answers, particularly on economics, left quite a lot to be desired. For example, he had no plausible answer to the points Nick Robinson was making about non-tariff barriers and what French and German ministers are saying about trade. His response to the question about all major economic organisations saying the UK would be poorer if it left the EU was also fairly weak.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2016/apr/19/eu-referendum-michael-goves-today-interview-politics-live?page=with:block-5715e1a3e4b001dc82f6ec17#block-5715e1a3e4b001dc82f6ec17
Please send me a PM and we can agree how best to settle up.
In reality, the short term effects of leaving the EU will be economically neutral. I can't see any obvious Brexit outside the EFTA/EEA route - because after all, it will be the current government/Civil Service that is negotiating it. They are risk averse.
In the long term, it will depend entirely on the political decisions we make in the UK, as we will have much more freedom as a politically independent nation. IT is impossible to make long term economic claims, as we just cannot predict the actions of the UK voter.
I do not believe Turkey will enter he EU in my lifetime (which I hope is several more decades yet)
I also do not believe there will be a solution which will be able to balance trade and migration in the immediate aftermath of a Leave vote. That said although I am not concerned by it I do understand I am in a minority on this and believe that there is an overwhelming pressure to do something about migration to the UK from the EU. As a result of failing to deal with this effectively I believe we will see far more difficult times ahead and I think this is the issue that will destroy the UK relationship with the EU in a far more fractious manner than would otherwise have been the case.
As for your other points, as people have already pointed out, Cameron will not be around for long. Personally I think it will be far less time than some on here think as I don't see him surviving a close Remain vote for very long at all.
I think you are completely wrong about the economic benefits of EU membership. Whilst the single market has helped to some extent, the costs and the vast balance of payments deficit at over £100 billion a year now make the EU a very poor deal for us.
The idea that we can have any influence in the EU is indeed the very poorest of your arguments. The last 3 decades should have shown you that such a view is a pipe dream and if the EU were unwilling to budge an inch when we threatened to Leave they are certainly not going to give way at all once we have decided to stay. The UK has no real influence at all in the EU and that is how it will continue.
A Remain vote condemns us to ever diminishing influence in the world, economic and political stagnation and a continual erosion of democracy.
Still, this referendum is revealing people for who they really are. The truth is often extremely bitter, but truth it is, nevertheless.
Sure fire winner...
The lazy/not listening to advice point was second/third hand (as I mentioned) but from someone with good judgement whose views I rate highly.
Vassal state? stung for ever more money to pay for Europe's grand mistakes? less control of our lives and more decisions taken by bureaucrats? key industries filleted and given to more influential countries?
Sounds great!
'Europe is going our way' is what people like Cameron and Osborne have been saying for 25 years. It isn't true and it isn't going to be true.
Sir you are in the words of Oscar Wilde demonstrating a triumph of hope over experience.
Can someone tell me how this is not a negative, defeatist attitude?
@JohnRentoul: "Remain are repeating the mistakes of the Scottish No campaign": David Herdson https://t.co/FvZRxuNxnl So that's good for Remain, then.
@DPJHodges: @JohnRentoul He's talking about the disastrous campaign they won by 10 points I take it.
If it is a close win he will be gone very quickly. The bad feeling in the party and in the country will make his position untenable.
Precisely. How much of what we currently have must we give up in order to gain substantial control over EU immigration, for example?
Why do you hate that so much?
If we vote to stay we are not settling for a secure status quo, we are voting to be hostages locked in the back of the car driven head-long towards deeper EU integration.
But in the end of course one of the reasons I want us to Leave is because I believe the EU has been disastrous for the UK and that it will only get worse after a Remain vote. Why should I pretend otherwise?
One can win a battle, while losing the war. If people feel that they were basically blackmailed into voting Remain, a narrow win won't settle the issue.
And shackling ourselves to the 28 nations of the deadwood European market doesn't seem 'outward'.
1987: Coventry City 3 - Spurs 2 (FA Cup) L Thanks Mabbutt
1991: Spurs 2 - Forest 1 (FA Cup) W
1999: Leicester 0 - Spurs 1 (League cup) W
2008: Chelsea 1 - Spurs 2 (League cup) W
2015: Chelsea 2 - Spurs 0 (League cup) L