politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Why LEAVE needs to neutralise PROJECT FEAR if it is to win

rcs1000 said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

stodge said:

Evening all

Like some others, I'm concerned at the prospect of a Conservative Government, post-LEAVE, tearing up protection for workers but that's both the problem and the opportunity democracy provides.

It provides the opportunity for a future non-Conservative Government to put forward something better, something more relevant and something stronger as law. It would be a huge policy opportunity for non-Conservative parties in Britain after a LEAVE vote.

It's not unreasonable for me or any other voter to ask LEAVE what aspects (if any) of EU legislation they would keep. It seems foolish to assume all EU law is by definition bad law or are there areas where EU law is considered too weak or doesn't go far enough ?

What about taxation - VAT only exists because of the EU. Would LEAVE want to abolish VAT, change the rate (we wouldn't have to harmonise), change those items which are reduced or zero-rated ?

I think it is unfair to claim that VAT only exists because of the EU. Prior to the UK joining the EU we had luxury taxes on non essentials and I would expect that we would return to a sales tax at a similar level to that we currently have. The main difference in my mind would be that we would have more freedom to choose what we imposed that tax on. So we could take it off things like home energy, sanitary products and brown field development and put it on things like caravans and pasties.

I think that's absolutely right.

Longer-term - and I know this is slightly controversial - I would abolish VAT and income tax and move to consumption tax with a large tax-free element to make it non-regressive. This is something we could do outside the EU. Albeit something that would be politically a complete non-starter.

Pre-VAT sales tax was 8-10%.

Pulpstar said:

Tim_B said:

JackW said:

Nate Silver assesses that the GOP race will come down to the detailed results of the California primary :

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/a-state-by-state-roadmap-for-the-rest-of-the-republican-primary/

That's rather stating the obvious, and has been the anticipated outcome for a week or so now.

Sam Wang of Princeton Electoral Consortium has Trump odds on to get to 1237. Nate seems to have him odds against.

Quite an important difference of opinion

Not sure about important. There are several differing opinions. It depends how you run the math. But the universal talking head view is that Trump'll likely be slightly short at Cleveland. Cruz has such a hugely superior ground game and can manipulate the rules and delegates much much better than Trump, who has proved to have feet of clay in this aspect. (hardly surprising - Cruz is an experienced and smart politician). He is hiring some good political operators to his campaign now, but should have done so 2 months ago.

Trump has to win something like 60% of remaining delegates to get to 1237. It remains to be seen if he can.

For example, in Pennsylvania the winner gets only 17 pledged delegates out of a total of 71 in several categories.

http://www.mcall.com/news/local/elections/mc-pa-republican-delegates-presidential-race-20160326-story.html

bigjohnowls said:

News UK News Hospitals
A&E crisis explodes under Jeremy Hunt as waiting times reach worst level since records began
17:19, 14 APR 2016 UPDATED 17:20, 14 APR 2016
BY JANE KIRBY , DAN BLOOM
A&E figures shame Jeremy Hunt
The NHS crisis under Jeremy Hunt is laid bare today after A&E waiting times reached their worst level since records began.

Latest figures show 12.2% of patients waited longer than four hours in February - the highest monthly figure on record. In April 2010 was just 1.7%

Is this crisis worse than the last one then? We never seem to be out of an NHS crisis, so it has no emotional impact on me.

GeoffM said:

foxinsoxuk said:

A bit of interesting news from Lancashire:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-36042951

6/14 posts unfilled and unfillable. It will be coming to a hospital near you in August....

Why in August? Are all the other doctors off to watch the Olympic Games?

I suspect it's because August is 'change-over' time in the NHS. New doctors begin rotations, old ones go off and work in consultant roles elsewhere.

(You should never get sick in August.)

rcs1000 said:

GeoffM said:

foxinsoxuk said:

A bit of interesting news from Lancashire:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-36042951

6/14 posts unfilled and unfillable. It will be coming to a hospital near you in August....

Why in August? Are all the other doctors off to watch the Olympic Games?

I suspect it's because August is 'change-over' time in the NHS. New doctors begin rotations, old ones go off and work in consultant roles elsewhere.

(You should never get sick in August.)

They all move at the same time? That's insane.

Url says it all really http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/14/ted-cruzs-doomed-war-on-sex-toys-and-masturbation/

watford30 said:

bigjohnowls said:

News UK News Hospitals
A&E crisis explodes under Jeremy Hunt as waiting times reach worst level since records began
17:19, 14 APR 2016 UPDATED 17:20, 14 APR 2016
BY JANE KIRBY , DAN BLOOM
A&E figures shame Jeremy Hunt
The NHS crisis under Jeremy Hunt is laid bare today after A&E waiting times reached their worst level since records began.

Latest figures show 12.2% of patients waited longer than four hours in February - the highest monthly figure on record. In April 2010 was just 1.7%

Not content with ignoring the Hippocratic oath, are greedy docs on a go slow now?

No it is just another Conservative Health Minister trying to destroy the NHS .The doctors unlike Hunt retain the trust of the majority of people in this country .

Tim_B said:

rcs1000 said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

stodge said:

Evening all

Like some others, I'm concerned at the prospect of a Conservative Government, post-LEAVE, tearing up protection for workers but that's both the problem and the opportunity democracy provides.

It provides the opportunity for a future non-Conservative Government to put forward something better, something more relevant and something stronger as law. It would be a huge policy opportunity for non-Conservative parties in Britain after a LEAVE vote.

It's not unreasonable for me or any other voter to ask LEAVE what aspects (if any) of EU legislation they would keep. It seems foolish to assume all EU law is by definition bad law or are there areas where EU law is considered too weak or doesn't go far enough ?

What about taxation - VAT only exists because of the EU. Would LEAVE want to abolish VAT, change the rate (we wouldn't have to harmonise), change those items which are reduced or zero-rated ?

I think it is unfair to claim that VAT only exists because of the EU. Prior to the UK joining the EU we had luxury taxes on non essentials and I would expect that we would return to a sales tax at a similar level to that we currently have. The main difference in my mind would be that we would have more freedom to choose what we imposed that tax on. So we could take it off things like home energy, sanitary products and brown field development and put it on things like caravans and pasties.

I think that's absolutely right.

Longer-term - and I know this is slightly controversial - I would abolish VAT and income tax and move to consumption tax with a large tax-free element to make it non-regressive. This is something we could do outside the EU. Albeit something that would be politically a complete non-starter.

Pre-VAT sales tax was 8-10%.

VAT is actually a very well designed tax, with low-levels of avoidance, and which has the admirable side effect of catching people who come to the UK. If we exited the EU, giving up the apparatus of VAT to replace it with a sales tax would not be sensible; we'd be better off keeping our existing system, and merely having - Mr Tyndall suggested - rather more control on levels.

The consumption tax I am thinking of would act like this http://www.forbes.com/sites/leonardburman/2012/06/04/a-progressive-consumption-tax/#10e7e472316d

Richard_Tyndall said:

OllyT said:

weejonnie said:

OllyT said:

TCPoliticalBetting said:

OllyT said:

TCPoliticalBetting said:

TOPPING said:

john_zims said:

@runnymede
'The best way to neutralise Project Lie is the EFTA/EEA option, even if only as a first step.'
Exactly, an excellent holding position.

Except it doesn't seem to be on offer. Nor is it a credible position (according to a Leaver on here).
Other than that it's all systems go.

In case you have not noticed, the head of Govt, the PM, is not a LEAVER so nothing can be promised from LEAVE on this aspect until after June 23rd.

If Leave can't promise anything they could at least tell us what they actually want. Are we going to put a stop to immigration or are we going to sign up to EFFTA/EEA? You can't dither on the question for the next 2 months.

They return to our Gov the right to decide these things. We then vote for the Govt or not.
You seem uncomfortable with the concept of power residing in the UK Govt.

Not at all I just want a straight answer about what Leave would like to do if hey win. Not a lot to ask really.

What would REMAIN like to happen to the EU if they win? The only difference is that LEAVE means the UK voters can influence the UK strongly if they win - but REMAIN still means that the UK voter can't influence the EU if they win.

The lengths that Leavers are going to to avoid answering a simple question (Stop immigration or join EFTA/EEA) is starting to get comical. You will have tied yourself in so many knots by June you won't know which way is up.

Nope. Some of us have been consistent in our views. You just don't seem to want to hear them.

With all due respect to your own importance could you enlighten me as to the official Leave answer to the question ?

rcs1000 said:

Tim_B said:

rcs1000 said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

stodge said:

Evening all

Like some others, I'm concerned at the prospect of a Conservative Government, post-LEAVE, tearing up protection for workers but that's both the problem and the opportunity democracy provides.

It provides the opportunity for a future non-Conservative Government to put forward something better, something more relevant and something stronger as law. It would be a huge policy opportunity for non-Conservative parties in Britain after a LEAVE vote.

It's not unreasonable for me or any other voter to ask LEAVE what aspects (if any) of EU legislation they would keep. It seems foolish to assume all EU law is by definition bad law or are there areas where EU law is considered too weak or doesn't go far enough ?

What about taxation - VAT only exists because of the EU. Would LEAVE want to abolish VAT, change the rate (we wouldn't have to harmonise), change those items which are reduced or zero-rated ?

I think it is unfair to claim that VAT only exists because of the EU. Prior to the UK joining the EU we had luxury taxes on non essentials and I would expect that we would return to a sales tax at a similar level to that we currently have. The main difference in my mind would be that we would have more freedom to choose what we imposed that tax on. So we could take it off things like home energy, sanitary products and brown field development and put it on things like caravans and pasties.

I think that's absolutely right.

Longer-term - and I know this is slightly controversial - I would abolish VAT and income tax and move to consumption tax with a large tax-free element to make it non-regressive. This is something we could do outside the EU. Albeit something that would be politically a complete non-starter.

Pre-VAT sales tax was 8-10%.

VAT is actually a very well designed tax, with low-levels of avoidance, and which has the admirable side effect of catching people who come to the UK. If we exited the EU, giving up the apparatus of VAT to replace it with a sales tax would not be sensible; we'd be better off keeping our existing system, and merely having - Mr Tyndall suggested - rather more control on levels.

The consumption tax I am thinking of would act like this http://www.forbes.com/sites/leonardburman/2012/06/04/a-progressive-consumption-tax/#10e7e472316d

I like the idea of a flat tax.

bigjohnowls said:

rcs1000 said:

GeoffM said:

foxinsoxuk said:

A bit of interesting news from Lancashire:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-36042951

6/14 posts unfilled and unfillable. It will be coming to a hospital near you in August....

Why in August? Are all the other doctors off to watch the Olympic Games?

I suspect it's because August is 'change-over' time in the NHS. New doctors begin rotations, old ones go off and work in consultant roles elsewhere.

(You should never get sick in August.)

1st Wednesday in August every year.

Round 1 recruitment figures show this August has record number of gaps by a mile.

Can anyone guess why?

Because the unions are causing mischief and stirring trouble?

nigel4england said:

bigjohnowls said:

nigel4england said:

bigjohnowls said:

News UK News Hospitals
A&E crisis explodes under Jeremy Hunt as waiting times reach worst level since records began
17:19, 14 APR 2016 UPDATED 17:20, 14 APR 2016
BY JANE KIRBY , DAN BLOOM
A&E figures shame Jeremy Hunt
The NHS crisis under Jeremy Hunt is laid bare today after A&E waiting times reached their worst level since records began.

Latest figures show 12.2% of patients waited longer than four hours in February - the highest monthly figure on record. In April 2010 was just 1.7%

How many more potential customers are there in February 2016 than there was in April 2010?

Genuine question.

Lots

Prime reasons
1 Cuts to social care and
2 GP record levels of vacancies

Answer the question please.

Lots is my answer.

The reasons are not brain surgeon stuff. Just beyond this Government

OllyT said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

OllyT said:

weejonnie said:

OllyT said:

TCPoliticalBetting said:

OllyT said:

TCPoliticalBetting said:

TOPPING said:

john_zims said:

@runnymede
'The best way to neutralise Project Lie is the EFTA/EEA option, even if only as a first step.'
Exactly, an excellent holding position.

Except it doesn't seem to be on offer. Nor is it a credible position (according to a Leaver on here).
Other than that it's all systems go.

In case you have not noticed, the head of Govt, the PM, is not a LEAVER so nothing can be promised from LEAVE on this aspect until after June 23rd.

If Leave can't promise anything they could at least tell us what they actually want. Are we going to put a stop to immigration or are we going to sign up to EFFTA/EEA? You can't dither on the question for the next 2 months.

They return to our Gov the right to decide these things. We then vote for the Govt or not.
You seem uncomfortable with the concept of power residing in the UK Govt.

Not at all I just want a straight answer about what Leave would like to do if hey win. Not a lot to ask really.

What would REMAIN like to happen to the EU if they win? The only difference is that LEAVE means the UK voters can influence the UK strongly if they win - but REMAIN still means that the UK voter can't influence the EU if they win.

The lengths that Leavers are going to to avoid answering a simple question (Stop immigration or join EFTA/EEA) is starting to get comical. You will have tied yourself in so many knots by June you won't know which way is up.

Nope. Some of us have been consistent in our views. You just don't seem to want to hear them.

With all due respect to your own importance could you enlighten me as to the official Leave answer to the question ?

The official Leave answer is that we control the answer. It will be up to us to determine through Parliamentary democracy, hence the slogan "Vote Leave Take Control".

Philip_Thompson said:

bigjohnowls said:

rcs1000 said:

GeoffM said:

foxinsoxuk said:

A bit of interesting news from Lancashire:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-36042951

6/14 posts unfilled and unfillable. It will be coming to a hospital near you in August....

Why in August? Are all the other doctors off to watch the Olympic Games?

I suspect it's because August is 'change-over' time in the NHS. New doctors begin rotations, old ones go off and work in consultant roles elsewhere.

(You should never get sick in August.)

1st Wednesday in August every year.

Round 1 recruitment figures show this August has record number of gaps by a mile.

Can anyone guess why?

Because the unions are causing mischief and stirring trouble?

No this is more amount no demand from new potential recruits.

Hardly surprising is it?

watford30 said:

MarkSenior said:

watford30 said:

MarkSenior said:

watford30 said:

bigjohnowls said:

News UK News Hospitals
A&E crisis explodes under Jeremy Hunt as waiting times reach worst level since records began
17:19, 14 APR 2016 UPDATED 17:20, 14 APR 2016
BY JANE KIRBY , DAN BLOOM
A&E figures shame Jeremy Hunt
The NHS crisis under Jeremy Hunt is laid bare today after A&E waiting times reached their worst level since records began.

Latest figures show 12.2% of patients waited longer than four hours in February - the highest monthly figure on record. In April 2010 was just 1.7%

Not content with ignoring the Hippocratic oath, are greedy docs on a go slow now?

No it is just another Conservative Health Minister trying to destroy the NHS .The doctors unlike Hunt retain the trust of the majority of people in this country .

Ah, another one who views the NHS as a religion, operating in the interests of the producer.

I do not view it as a religion but something that is vital to my personal health especially at the moment > I do not appreciate it that Hunt is playing politics with my health at this ( or any ) time .

Greedy doctors are playing politics with everyone's health. Producer interests over those of patients. That worries me.

You are living in a fantasy UK . What should worry you is why the Conservatives seem only able to select Health Secretaries who have a wish to destroy the NHS .

Casino_Royale said:

foxinsoxuk said:

watford30 said:

bigjohnowls said:

News UK News Hospitals
A&E crisis explodes under Jeremy Hunt as waiting times reach worst level since records began
17:19, 14 APR 2016 UPDATED 17:20, 14 APR 2016
BY JANE KIRBY , DAN BLOOM
A&E figures shame Jeremy Hunt
The NHS crisis under Jeremy Hunt is laid bare today after A&E waiting times reached their worst level since records began.

Latest figures show 12.2% of patients waited longer than four hours in February - the highest monthly figure on record. In April 2010 was just 1.7%

Not content with ignoring the Hippocratic oath, are greedy docs on a go slow now?

GeoffM said:

foxinsoxuk said:

A bit of interesting news from Lancashire:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-36042951

6/14 posts unfilled and unfillable. It will be coming to a hospital near you in August....

Why in August? Are all the other doctors off to watch the Olympic Games?

The Junior contract imposition is the first Wednesday in August. That is the day that all new graduates start in their Foundation posts for 2 years, and all the Foundation graduates start in their Specialist or GP training posts. The interview rounds for these have been running for the last few months. Some programmes are filled, but the fill rate overall is down substantially, particularly in specialities like Psychiatry, Paediatrics, Obstetrics, Anaesthetics and core medicine. There will be major rota gaps even if people take up their offers, and if imposition is not withdrawn some may change their minds and decline the new terms and conditions.

I am not looking forward to firefight the crisis that Mr Hunt has created.

Good for Hunt for sticking to his guns. I hope he stays to the Autumn to see it through.

Maybe he's worth a bet..

Sees what through?

foxinsoxuk said:

nigel4england said:

bigjohnowls said:

News UK News Hospitals
A&E crisis explodes under Jeremy Hunt as waiting times reach worst level since records began
17:19, 14 APR 2016 UPDATED 17:20, 14 APR 2016
BY JANE KIRBY , DAN BLOOM
A&E figures shame Jeremy Hunt
The NHS crisis under Jeremy Hunt is laid bare today after A&E waiting times reached their worst level since records began.

Latest figures show 12.2% of patients waited longer than four hours in February - the highest monthly figure on record. In April 2010 was just 1.7%

How many more potential customers are there in February 2016 than there was in April 2010?

Genuine question.

For the workforce issues:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-35479749

And this audit of 100 million GP consultations shows the workload of GPs in terms of numbers of consultations up 16 % over a a 6 year period. Consultations went up both in terms of numbers of consultations per capita and also duration.


http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(16)00620-6/abstract?utm_source=Facebook &utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=ofgp&sf23845310=1

so work load up 16% over 6 years yet in one year Blair gave them an average 23% pay rise..

so still a 7% productivity gap.

bigjohnowls said:

Alanbrooke said:

bigjohnowls said:

foxinsoxuk said:

watford30 said:

bigjohnowls said:

News UK News Hospitals
A&E crisis explodes under Jeremy Hunt as waiting times reach worst level since records began
17:19, 14 APR 2016 UPDATED 17:20, 14 APR 2016
BY JANE KIRBY , DAN BLOOM
A&E figures shame Jeremy Hunt
The NHS crisis under Jeremy Hunt is laid bare today after A&E waiting times reached their worst level since records began.

Latest figures show 12.2% of patients waited longer than four hours in February - the highest monthly figure on record. In April 2010 was just 1.7%

Not content with ignoring the Hippocratic oath, are greedy docs on a go slow now?

GeoffM said:

foxinsoxuk said:

A bit of interesting news from Lancashire:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-36042951

6/14 posts unfilled and unfillable. It will be coming to a hospital near you in August....

Why in August? Are all the other doctors off to watch the Olympic Games?

The Junior contract imposition is the first Wednesday in August. That is the day that all new graduates start in their Foundation posts for 2 years, and all the Foundation graduates start in their Specialist or GP training posts. The interview rounds for these have been running for the last few months. Some programmes are filled, but the fill rate overall is down substantially, particularly in specialities like Psychiatry, Paediatrics, Obstetrics, Anaesthetics and core medicine. There will be major rota gaps even if people take up their offers, and if imposition is not withdrawn some may change their minds and decline the new terms and conditions.

I am not looking forward to firefight the crisis that Mr Hunt has created.

Watford is in denial.

Have you seen the national round 1 recruitment figures?

Really Scary I cant see Hunt surviving these unless round 2 shows some amazing recovery (which I doubt)

what are you worried about we;ll just ship a shedload in from Romania.

Cheaper too - vote remain to save the NHS.

Tick Tock 17 weeks to cave in.

I;m sure that means something,

@bigjohnowls


'News UK News Hospitals
A&E crisis explodes under Jeremy Hunt as waiting times reach worst level since records began
17:19, 14 APR 2016 UPDATED 17:20, 14 APR 2016
BY JANE KIRBY , DAN BLOOM
A&E figures shame Jeremy Hunt
The NHS crisis under Jeremy Hunt is laid bare today after A&E waiting times reached their worst level since records began.'

If the Daily Mirror and Labour party say this it must be true.


Though with the much smaller budget increase the NHS was promised by Labour last year the system would have already collapsed

bigjohnowls said:

foxinsoxuk said:

watford30 said:

bigjohnowls said:

News UK News Hospitals
A&E crisis explodes under Jeremy Hunt as waiting times reach worst level since records began
17:19, 14 APR 2016 UPDATED 17:20, 14 APR 2016
BY JANE KIRBY , DAN BLOOM
A&E figures shame Jeremy Hunt
The NHS crisis under Jeremy Hunt is laid bare today after A&E waiting times reached their worst level since records began.

Latest figures show 12.2% of patients waited longer than four hours in February - the highest monthly figure on record. In April 2010 was just 1.7%

Not content with ignoring the Hippocratic oath, are greedy docs on a go slow now?

GeoffM said:

foxinsoxuk said:

A bit of interesting news from Lancashire:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-36042951

6/14 posts unfilled and unfillable. It will be coming to a hospital near you in August....

Why in August? Are all the other doctors off to watch the Olympic Games?

The Junior contract imposition is the first Wednesday in August. That is the day that all new graduates start in their Foundation posts for 2 years, and all the Foundation graduates start in their Specialist or GP training posts. The interview rounds for these have been running for the last few months. Some programmes are filled, but the fill rate overall is down substantially, particularly in specialities like Psychiatry, Paediatrics, Obstetrics, Anaesthetics and core medicine. There will be major rota gaps even if people take up their offers, and if imposition is not withdrawn some may change their minds and decline the new terms and conditions.

I am not looking forward to firefight the crisis that Mr Hunt has created.

Watford is in denial.

Have you seen the national round 1 recruitment figures?

Really Scary I cant see Hunt surviving these unless round 2 shows some amazing recovery (which I doubt)

I have seen the figures, and they do scare me.

Recruitment and retention are a major problem. Numbers of people applying for paeds and obstetrics are particularly bad, in large part because these posts are 75% female. The new contract discriminates agaist women in its own analysis.

I can patch together enough cover for my own department, I think, but have not yet been told how many unfilled slots we have. It is going to impact on non emergency services too. I also think that the goodwill will have disappeared and covering short-notice gaps will be very trying.

john_zims said:

@bigjohnowls


'News UK News Hospitals
A&E crisis explodes under Jeremy Hunt as waiting times reach worst level since records began
17:19, 14 APR 2016 UPDATED 17:20, 14 APR 2016
BY JANE KIRBY , DAN BLOOM
A&E figures shame Jeremy Hunt
The NHS crisis under Jeremy Hunt is laid bare today after A&E waiting times reached their worst level since records began.'

If the Daily Mirror and Labour party say this it must be true.


Though with the much smaller budget increase the NHS was promised by Labour last year the system would have already collapsed

Cuts to social care?

bigjohnowls said:

Pulpstar said:

Jeremy Hunt is one of the big reasons I'm most likely voting Tory in the upcoming elections.

Why do you need an excuse. When did you last vote non Tory

I bet the Lab candidate in Killamarsh is shitting himself.

In fact is there even an election other than PCC?

I voted Green in the General. Reasonably confident it'll be a big Labour win here

foxinsoxuk said:

bigjohnowls said:

foxinsoxuk said:

watford30 said:

bigjohnowls said:

News UK News Hospitals
A&E crisis explodes under Jeremy Hunt as waiting times reach worst level since records began
17:19, 14 APR 2016 UPDATED 17:20, 14 APR 2016
BY JANE KIRBY , DAN BLOOM
A&E figures shame Jeremy Hunt
The NHS crisis under Jeremy Hunt is laid bare today after A&E waiting times reached their worst level since records began.

Latest figures show 12.2% of patients waited longer than four hours in February - the highest monthly figure on record. In April 2010 was just 1.7%

Not content with ignoring the Hippocratic oath, are greedy docs on a go slow now?

GeoffM said:

foxinsoxuk said:

A bit of interesting news from Lancashire:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-36042951

6/14 posts unfilled and unfillable. It will be coming to a hospital near you in August....

Why in August? Are all the other doctors off to watch the Olympic Games?

The Junior contract imposition is the first Wednesday in August. That is the day that all new graduates start in their Foundation posts for 2 years, and all the Foundation graduates start in their Specialist or GP training posts. The interview rounds for these have been running for the last few months. Some programmes are filled, but the fill rate overall is down substantially, particularly in specialities like Psychiatry, Paediatrics, Obstetrics, Anaesthetics and core medicine. There will be major rota gaps even if people take up their offers, and if imposition is not withdrawn some may change their minds and decline the new terms and conditions.

I am not looking forward to firefight the crisis that Mr Hunt has created.

Watford is in denial.

Have you seen the national round 1 recruitment figures?

Really Scary I cant see Hunt surviving these unless round 2 shows some amazing recovery (which I doubt)

I have seen the figures, and they do scare me.

Recruitment and retention are a major problem. Numbers of people applying for paeds and obstetrics are particularly bad, in large part because these posts are 75% female. The new contract discriminates agaist women in its own analysis.

I can patch together enough cover for my own department, I think, but have not yet been told how many unfilled slots we have. It is going to impact on non emergency services too. I also think that the goodwill will have disappeared and covering short-notice gaps will be very trying.

Pulpstar and Casino genuinely think Hunt is doing a good job too.

And they are 2 of the saner PB Tories FFS

Pulpstar said:

bigjohnowls said:

Pulpstar said:

Jeremy Hunt is one of the big reasons I'm most likely voting Tory in the upcoming elections.

Why do you need an excuse. When did you last vote non Tory

I bet the Lab candidate in Killamarsh is shitting himself.

In fact is there even an election other than PCC?

I voted Green in the General. Reasonably confident it'll be a big Labour win here

Is there an election?

I thought was only PCC in NE Derbyshire

foxinsoxuk said:

Alanbrooke said:

foxinsoxuk said:

nigel4england said:

bigjohnowls said:

News UK News Hospitals
A&E crisis explodes under Jeremy Hunt as waiting times reach worst level since records began
17:19, 14 APR 2016 UPDATED 17:20, 14 APR 2016
BY JANE KIRBY , DAN BLOOM
A&E figures shame Jeremy Hunt
The NHS crisis under Jeremy Hunt is laid bare today after A&E waiting times reached their worst level since records began.

Latest figures show 12.2% of patients waited longer than four hours in February - the highest monthly figure on record. In April 2010 was just 1.7%

How many more potential customers are there in February 2016 than there was in April 2010?

Genuine question.

For the workforce issues:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-35479749

And this audit of 100 million GP consultations shows the workload of GPs in terms of numbers of consultations up 16 % over a a 6 year period. Consultations went up both in terms of numbers of consultations per capita and also duration.


http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(16)00620-6/abstract?utm_source=Facebook &utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=ofgp&sf23845310=1

so work load up 16% over 6 years yet in one year Blair gave them an average 23% pay rise..

so still a 7% productivity gap.

That was 11 years ago (in a previous General Practice crisis) since then GP pay has declined about 20% in real terms, so getting back to what it was.

On the whole though it is not pay that my GP colleagues are unhappy with, it is the unsustainable workload.

I know lots of GPs and they always moan. It's just middle class special pleading. As for a 20% pay cut, the ones I know seem to be spending more than ever.

bigjohnowls said:

Pulpstar said:

bigjohnowls said:

Pulpstar said:

Jeremy Hunt is one of the big reasons I'm most likely voting Tory in the upcoming elections.

Why do you need an excuse. When did you last vote non Tory

I bet the Lab candidate in Killamarsh is shitting himself.

In fact is there even an election other than PCC?

I voted Green in the General. Reasonably confident it'll be a big Labour win here

Is there an election?

I thought was only PCC in NE Derbyshire

I've got polling cards for something or other, I'll be in the Netherlands at the time of the vote so need to apply for a postal vote tommorow.

I'll vote no matter what

Alistair said:

john_zims said:

@bigjohnowls


'News UK News Hospitals
A&E crisis explodes under Jeremy Hunt as waiting times reach worst level since records began
17:19, 14 APR 2016 UPDATED 17:20, 14 APR 2016
BY JANE KIRBY , DAN BLOOM
A&E figures shame Jeremy Hunt
The NHS crisis under Jeremy Hunt is laid bare today after A&E waiting times reached their worst level since records began.'

If the Daily Mirror and Labour party say this it must be true.


Though with the much smaller budget increase the NHS was promised by Labour last year the system would have already collapsed

As the massively inefficient and financially wasteful Lansley 'reforms' wouldn't have been enacted the NHS would have probably done more with less.

BINGO

@bigjohnowls Much as I admire Hunt I am a bit concerned about the possibility of vexatious litigation if TTIP comes in as a threat to the NHS.

bigjohnowls said:

foxinsoxuk said:

bigjohnowls said:

foxinsoxuk said:

watford30 said:

bigjohnowls said:

News UK News Hospitals
A&E crisis explodes under Jeremy Hunt as waiting times reach worst level since records began
17:19, 14 APR 2016 UPDATED 17:20, 14 APR 2016
BY JANE KIRBY , DAN BLOOM
A&E figures shame Jeremy Hunt
The NHS crisis under Jeremy Hunt is laid bare today after A&E waiting times reached their worst level since records began.

Latest figures show 12.2% of patients waited longer than four hours in February - the highest monthly figure on record. In April 2010 was just 1.7%

Not content with ignoring the Hippocratic oath, are greedy docs on a go slow now?

GeoffM said:

foxinsoxuk said:

A bit of interesting news from Lancashire:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-36042951

6/14 posts unfilled and unfillable. It will be coming to a hospital near you in August....

Why in August? Are all the other doctors off to watch the Olympic Games?

The Junior contract imposition.

Watford is in denial.

Have you seen the national round 1 recruitment figures?

Really Scary I cant see Hunt surviving these unless round 2 shows some amazing recovery (which I doubt)

I have seen the figures, and they do scare me.

Recruitment and retention are a major problem. Numbers of people applying for paeds and obstetrics are particularly bad, in large part because these posts are 75% female. The new contract discriminates agaist women in its own analysis.

I can patch together enough cover for my own department, I think, but have not yet been told how many unfilled slots we have. It is going to impact on non emergency services too. I also think that the goodwill will have disappeared and covering short-notice gaps will be very trying.

Pulpstar and Casino genuinely think Hunt is doing a good job too.

And they are 2 of the saner PB Tories FFS

I'll take that as a compliment.

I admire the way Hunt has stuck to his guns in delivering a manifesto pledge at a time when there is no more money for the NHS - cheaper 24/7 rostering is the only way, unless we all want to pay a lot mode tax

I don't admire just how long he's taken to do it, the poor PR and air war and awful Government salesmanship of the messaging

Trump's campaign manager will not be prosecuted for battery, even though there was no doubt he touched her arm.

The prosecutor was scathing about Michele Fields, and said there was little chance of a conviction.

Alanbrooke said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Alanbrooke said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Alanbrooke said:

foxinsoxuk said:

nigel4england said:

bigjohnowls said:

News UK News Hospitals
A&E crisis explodes under Jeremy Hunt as waiting times reach worst level since records began
17:19, 14 APR 2016 UPDATED 17:20, 14 APR 2016
BY JANE KIRBY , DAN BLOOM
A&E figures shame Jeremy Hunt
The NHS crisis under Jeremy Hunt is laid bare today after A&E waiting times reached their worst level since records began.

Latest figures show 12.2% of patients waited longer than four hours in February - the highest monthly figure on record. In April 2010 was just 1.7%

How many more potential customers are there in February 2016 than there was in April 2010?

Genuine question.

For the workforce issues:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-35479749

And this audit of 100 million GP consultations shows the workload of GPs in terms of numbers of consultations up 16 % over a a 6 year period. Consultations went up both in terms of numbers of consultations per capita and also duration.


http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(16)00620-6/abstract?utm_source=Facebook &utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=ofgp&sf23845310=1

so work load up 16% over 6 years yet in one year Blair gave them an average 23% pay rise..

so still a 7% productivity gap.

That was 11 years ago (in a previous General Practice crisis) since then GP pay has declined about 20% in real terms, so getting back to what it was.

On the whole though it is not pay that my GP colleagues are unhappy with, it is the unsustainable workload.

I know lots of GPs and they always moan. It's just middle class special pleading. As for a 20% pay cut, the ones I know seem to be spending more than ever.

Sure, like farmers, tradesmen and small businessmen, GP's always have something to moan about.

Its the voting with their feet, and the problems with recruitment and retention that show there is a real problem.

medicine is the most oversubscibed degree in the UK and will remian soi as UK GPs are

It is not so oversubscribed as it once was. At the end of Foundation year 2 only 53% of UK graduates continue in postgraduate training as either specialists or GP's. This is down from 73% just 4 years ago. Some go into research, some the pharmaceutical industry. About 8% go abroad (largely unchanged over 4 years interestingly), but the biggest change is the number leaving the profession entirely. That is a worrying trend as doctors in research or abroad can potentially be tempted back, but those that have quit entirely are very hard to retrieve.

Still, I am sure Mr Hunt has a plan.

foxinsoxuk said:

Alanbrooke said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Alanbrooke said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Alanbrooke said:

foxinsoxuk said:

nigel4england said:

bigjohnowls said:

News UK News Hospitals
A&E crisis explodes under Jeremy Hunt as waiting times reach worst level since records began
17:19, 14 APR 2016 UPDATED 17:20, 14 APR 2016
BY JANE KIRBY , DAN BLOOM
A&E figures shame Jeremy Hunt
The NHS crisis under Jeremy Hunt is laid bares just 1.7%

How many more potential cue was in April 2010?

Genuine question.

For the workforce issues:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-35479749

And this audit of 100 million GP consultasultations went up both in terms of numbers of consultations per capita and also duration.


http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(16)00620-6/abstract?utm_source=Facebook &utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=ofgp&sf23845310=1

so work load up 16% over 6 years yet in one year Blair gave them an average 23% pay rise..

so still a 7% productivity gap.

That was 11 years ago (in a previous General Practice crisis) since then GP pay has declined about 20% in real terms, so getting back to what it was.

On the whole though it is not pay that my GP colleagues are unhappy with, it is the unsustainable workload.

I know lots of GPs and they always moan. It's just middle class special pleading. As for a 20% pay cut, the ones I know seem to be spending more than ever.

Sure, like farmers, tradesomething to moan about.

Its the voting with their feet, and the problems with recruitment and retention that show there is a real problem.

medicine is the most oll remian soi as UK GPs are

It is not so oversubscribed as it once was. At the end of Foundation year 2 only 53% of UK graduates continue in postgraduate training as either specialists or GP's. This is down from 73% just 4 years ago. Some go into research, some the pharmaceutical industry. About 8% go abroad (largely unchanged over 4 years interestingly), but the biggest change is the number leaving the profession entirely. That is a worrying trend as doctors in research or abroad can potentially be tempted back, but those that have quit entirely are very hard to retrieve.

Still, I am sure Mr Hunt has a plan.

all you're saying is we don't train enough doctors.

That has been the case for about 20 years and as my GP mate gripes what's the point of training so many women when you need two to fill one GP post.

However look on the bright side with UK GPs being so well paid we can import loads from Poland at cheaper rates. And you'll vote to make sure we do.

OllyT said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

OllyT said:

weejonnie said:

OllyT said:

TCPoliticalBetting said:

OllyT said:

TCPoliticalBetting said:

TOPPING said:

john_zims said:

@runnymede
'The best way to neutralise Project Lie is the EFTA/EEA option, even if only as a first step.'
Exactly, an excellent holding position.

Except it doesn't seem to be on offer. Nor is it a credible position (according to a Leaver on here).
Other than that it's all systems go.

In case you have not noticed, the head of Govt, the PM, is not a LEAVER so nothing can be promised from LEAVE on this aspect until after June 23rd.

If Leave can't promise anything they could at least tell us what they actually want. Are we going to put a stop to immigration or are we going to sign up to EFFTA/EEA? You can't dither on the question for the next 2 months.

They return to our Gov the right to decide these things. We then vote for the Govt or not.
You seem uncomfortable with the concept of power residing in the UK Govt.

Not at all I just want a straight answer about what Leave would like to do if hey win. Not a lot to ask really.

What would REMAIN like to happen to the EU if they win? The only difference is that LEAVE means the UK voters can influence the UK strongly if they win - but REMAIN still means that the UK voter can't influence the EU if they win.

The lengths that Leavers are going to to avoid answering a simple question (Stop immigration or join EFTA/EEA) is starting to get comical. You will have tied yourself in so many knots by June you won't know which way is up.

Nope. Some of us have been consistent in our views. You just don't seem to want to hear them.

With all due respect to your own importance could you enlighten me as to the official Leave answer to the question ?

As I understand it the official Leave position is to negotiate an individual arrangement with the EU outside of EFTA. It is not a position I agree with personally but then I have never claimed to speak for the official campaign.

foxinsoxuk said:

Alanbrooke said:

foxinsoxuk said:

nigel4england said:

bigjohnowls said:

News UK News Hospitals
A&E crisis explodes under Jeremy Hunt as waiting times reach worst level since records began
17:19, 14 APR 2016 UPDATED 17:20, 14 APR 2016
BY JANE KIRBY , DAN BLOOM
A&E figures shame Jeremy Hunt
The NHS crisis under Jeremy Hunt is laid bare today after A&E waiting times reached their worst level since records began.

Latest figures show 12.2% of patients waited longer than four hours in February - the highest monthly figure on record. In April 2010 was just 1.7%

How many more potential customers are there in February 2016 than there was in April 2010?

Genuine question.

For the workforce issues:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-35479749

And this audit of 100 million GP consultations shows the workload of GPs in terms of numbers of consultations up 16 % over a a 6 year period. Consultations went up both in terms of numbers of consultations per capita and also duration.


http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(16)00620-6/abstract?utm_source=Facebook &utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=ofgp&sf23845310=1

so work load up 16% over 6 years yet in one year Blair gave them an average 23% pay rise..

so still a 7% productivity gap.

That was 11 years ago (in a previous General Practice crisis) since then GP pay has declined about 20% in real terms, so getting back to what it was.

On the whole though it is not pay that my GP colleagues are unhappy with, it is the unsustainable workload.

The prevalence of part time female gp's is a major inefficiency compared to 20 years ago. The lack of continuity wastes resources and increases the risk of mistakes.

TCPoliticalBetting said:

JackW said:

Latest ARSE4EU Referendum Projection Countdown

13 hours 13 minutes 13 seconds

When you post, it would be helpful to see how each number has moved from the start.

It has shifted net 0.5% from the first ARSE4EU in the direction of Leave. Jacks ARSE is certainly not a volatile indicator.

foxinsoxuk said:

Alanbrooke said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Alanbrooke said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Alanbrooke said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Alanbrooke said:

foxinsoxuk said:

nigel4england said:

bigjohnowls said:

News UK News Hospitals
A&E crisis explodes under Jeremy Hunt as waiting times reach worst level since records began
17:19, 14 APR 2016 UPDATED 17:20, 14 APR 2016
BY JANE KIRBY , DAN BLOOM
A&E figures shame Jeremy Hunt
The NHS crisis under Jeremy Hunt is laid bares just 1.7%

How many more potential cue was in April 2010?

Genuine question.

For the workforce issues:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-35479749

And this audit of 100 million GP consultasultations went up both in terms of numbers of consultations per capita and also duration.


http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(16)00620-6/abstract?utm_source=Facebook &utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=ofgp&sf23845310=1

so work load up 16% over 6 years yet in one year Blair gave them an average 23% pay rise..

so still a 7% productivity gap.

That was 11 years ago (in a previous General Practice crisis) since then GP pay has declined about 20% in real terms, so getting back to what it was.

On the whole though it is not pay that my GP colleagues are unhappy with, it is the unsustainable workload.

I know lots of GPs and they always moan. It's just middle class special pleading. As for a 20% pay cut, the ones I know seem to be spending more than ever.

Sure, like farmers, tradesomething to moan about.

Its the voting with their feet, and the problems with recruitment and retention that show there is a real problem.

medicine is the most oll remian soi as UK GPs are

It is not so oversubscribed as .

all you're saying is we don'e to make sure we do.

I will do.

Though we don't get so many Polish applicants, mostly Greek and Romanian, in Medicine. One of the non-tarrif barriers that was removed by the EU is mutual recognition and standardisation of professional qualifications.

Non-EU doctors have many more hoops to jump through in getting their qualifications recognised (and very difficult to get postgraduate qualifications recognised at all), and visas are very tough to get. In practice non-EU recruitment has become a trickle.

so once again instead of developing our own core skills we just ship em in and don't bother contributing to a better stronger society,

TCPoliticalBetting said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Alanbrooke said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Alanbrooke said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Alanbrooke said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Alanbrooke said:

foxinsoxuk said:

nigel4england said:

bigjohnowls said:

News UK News Hospitals
A&E crisis explodes under Jeremy ....

How many more potential cue was in April 2010?

Genuine question.

For the workforce issues:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-35479749

And this audit of 100 million GP consultasultations went up both in terms of numbers of consultations per capita and also duration.


http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(16)00620-6/abstract?utm_source=Facebook &utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=ofgp&sf23845310=1

so work load up 16% over 6 years yet in one year Blair gave them an average 23% pay rise..

so still a 7% productivity gap.

That was 11 years ago (in a previous General Practice crisis) since then GP pay has declined about 20% in real terms, so getting back to what it was.

On the whole though it is not pay that my GP colleagues are unhappy with, it is the unsustainable workload.

I know lots of GPs and they always moan. It's just middle class special pleading. As for a 20% pay cut, the ones I know seem to be spending more than ever.

Sure, like farmers, tradesomething to moan about.

Its the voting with their feet, and the problems with recruitment and retention that show there is a real problem.

medicine is the most oll remian soi as UK GPs are

It is not so oversubscribed as .

all .

I will do.

Though we don't get so many Polish applicants, mostly Greek and Romanian, in Medicine. One of the non-tarrif barriers that was removed by the EU is mutual recognition and standardisation of professional qualifications.

Non-EU doctors have many more hoops to jump through in getting their qualifications recognised (and very difficult to get postgraduate qualifications recognised at all), and visas are very tough to get. In practice non-EU recruitment has become a trickle.

You are denying the female problem?

No. Though Hunt seems to. In the DoH's own analysis the new contract discriminates against the 60% of UK graduates that are female.

Some can see a perfect storm coming, but not Mr Hunt. He has a plan I am sure.

Alanbrooke said:

matt said:

HurstLlama said:

All you chaps with your fixation on Europe seem to have missed the biggest and most hopeful story of the day - the proposed remuneration package of the CEO of BP has been voted down and included in those rejecting it are big institutional investors.

Huzzah! I say and maybe this is the start of returning sanity to the corporate sector.

It's interesting but no more than that and would best be viewed in the context of BP performance over that last 24 months. You might compare BP to the compensation packages awarded to the senior management of the US majors and the (implicit and explicit) shareholder approval for the latter. The problem that BP faces is if they are not paying bonuses and their competitors are then real talent will walk. You may or may not be indifferent to this but unless we impose a global compensation approach (or perhaps a pan-EU one) then, to quote, sanity will not return.

just bollocks.

Thanks for the reasoning you (edit). [Still a moron level response but given the man in pub level of your posts no surprise].

matt said:

Alanbrooke said:

matt said:

HurstLlama said:

All you chaps with your fixation on Europe seem to have missed the biggest and most hopeful story of the day - the proposed remuneration package of the CEO of BP has been voted down and included in those rejecting it are big institutional investors.

Huzzah! I say and maybe this is the start of returning sanity to the corporate sector.

It's interesting but no more than that and would best be viewed in the context of BP performance over that last 24 months. You might compare BP to the compensation packages awarded to the senior management of the US majors and the (implicit and explicit) shareholder approval for the latter. The problem that BP faces is if they are not paying bonuses and their competitors are then real talent will walk. You may or may not be indifferent to this but unless we impose a global compensation approach (or perhaps a pan-EU one) then, to quote, sanity will not return.

just bollocks.

Thanks for the reasoning you (edit). [Still a moron level response but given the man in pub level of your posts no surprise].

you see I've dragged you down to my level and now I;m going to beat you on experience :-)

Alanbrooke said:

bigjohnowls said:

foxinsoxuk said:

watford30 said:

bigjohnowls said:

News UK News Hospitals
A&E crisis explodes under Jeremy Hunt as waiting times reach worst level since records began
17:19, 14 APR 2016 UPDATED 17:20, 14 APR 2016
BY JANE KIRBY , DAN BLOOM
A&E figures shame Jeremy Hunt
The NHS crisis under Jeremy Hunt is laid bare today after A&E waiting times reached their worst level since records began.

Latest figures show 12.2% of patients waited longer than four hours in February - the highest monthly figure on record. In April 2010 was just 1.7%

Not content with ignoring the Hippocratic oath, are greedy docs on a go slow now?

GeoffM said:

foxinsoxuk said:

A bit of interesting news from Lancashire:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-36042951

6/14 posts unfilled and unfillable. It will be coming to a hospital near you in August....

Why in August? Are all the other doctors off to watch the Olympic Games?

The Junior contract imposition is the first Wednesday in August. That is the day that all new graduates start in their Foundation posts for 2 years, and all the Foundation graduates start in their Specialist or GP training posts. The interview rounds for these have been running for the last few months. Some programmes are filled, but the fill rate overall is down substantially, particularly in specialities like Psychiatry, Paediatrics, Obstetrics, Anaesthetics and core medicine. There will be major rota gaps even if people take up their offers, and if imposition is not withdrawn some may change their minds and decline the new terms and conditions.

I am not looking forward to firefight the crisis that Mr Hunt has created.

Watford is in denial.

Have you seen the national round 1 recruitment figures?

Really Scary I cant see Hunt surviving these unless round 2 shows some amazing recovery (which I doubt)

what are you worried about we;ll just ship a shedload in from Romania.

Cheaper too - vote remain to save the NHS.

You are having a laugh if you think anyone is going to believe that the right wing of the Tory parterre going to save the NHS.

Alanbrooke said:

matt said:

Alanbrooke said:

matt said:

HurstLlama said:

All you chaps with your fixation on Europe seem to have missed the biggest and most hopeful story of the day - the proposed remuneration package of the CEO of BP has been voted down and included in those rejecting it are big institutional investors.

Huzzah! I say and maybe this is the start of returning sanity to the corporate sector.

It's interesting but no more than that and would best be viewed in the context of BP performance over that last 24 months. You might compare BP to the compensation packages awarded to the senior management of the US majors and the (implicit and explicit) shareholder approval for the latter. The problem that BP faces is if they are not paying bonuses and their competitors are then real talent will walk. You may or may not be indifferent to this but unless we impose a global compensation approach (or perhaps a pan-EU one) then, to quote, sanity will not return.

just bollocks.

Thanks for the reasoning you (edit). [Still a moron level response but given the man in pub level of your posts no surprise].

you see I've dragged you down to my level and now I;m going to beat you on experience :-)

PJ O'Rourke, 1995. Not.

matt said:

Alanbrooke said:

matt said:

Alanbrooke said:

matt said:

HurstLlama said:

All you chaps with your fixation on Europe seem to have missed the biggest and most hopeful story of the day - the proposed remuneration package of the CEO of BP has been voted down and included in those rejecting it are big institutional investors.

Huzzah! I say and maybe this is the start of returning sanity to the corporate sector.

It's interesting but no more than that and would best be viewed in the context of BP performance over that last 24 months. You might compare BP to the compensation packages awarded to the senior management of the US majors and the (implicit and explicit) shareholder approval for the latter. The problem that BP faces is if they are not paying bonuses and their competitors are then real talent will walk. You may or may not be indifferent to this but unless we impose a global compensation approach (or perhaps a pan-EU one) then, to quote, sanity will not return.

just bollocks.

Thanks for the reasoning you (edit). [Still a moron level response but given the man in pub level of your posts no surprise].

you see I've dragged you down to my level and now I;m going to beat you on experience :-)

PJ O'Rourke, 1995. Not.

Oh dear a chap who denigrates that great british invention - the pub - resorts to feeble americanisms.

I do hope you're not like this with your clients.

Daniel Hannan: The referendum campaign has begun – and Leave has the positive message
http://www.conservativehome.com/thecolumnists/2016/04/daniel-hannan-the-referendum-campaign-has-begun-and-leave-has-the-positive-message.html