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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Why LEAVE needs to neutralise PROJECT FEAR if it is to win

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  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,255
    OllyT said:

    The lengths that Leavers are going to to avoid answering a simple question (Stop immigration or join EFTA/EEA) is starting to get comical. You will have tied yourself in so many knots by June you won't know which way is up.
    Nope. Some of us have been consistent in our views. You just don't seem to want to hear them.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    rcs1000 said:

    I think that's absolutely right.

    Longer-term - and I know this is slightly controversial - I would abolish VAT and income tax and move to consumption tax with a large tax-free element to make it non-regressive. This is something we could do outside the EU. Albeit something that would be politically a complete non-starter.
    Pre-VAT sales tax was 8-10%.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited April 2016


    News UK News Hospitals
    A&E crisis explodes under Jeremy Hunt as waiting times reach worst level since records began
    17:19, 14 APR 2016 UPDATED 17:20, 14 APR 2016
    BY JANE KIRBY , DAN BLOOM
    A&E figures shame Jeremy Hunt
    The NHS crisis under Jeremy Hunt is laid bare today after A&E waiting times reached their worst level since records began.

    Latest figures show 12.2% of patients waited longer than four hours in February - the highest monthly figure on record. In April 2010 was just 1.7%

    Not content with ignoring the Hippocratic oath, are greedy docs on a go slow now?
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Pulpstar said:

    Sam Wang of Princeton Electoral Consortium has Trump odds on to get to 1237. Nate seems to have him odds against.

    Quite an important difference of opinion :D
    Not sure about important. There are several differing opinions. It depends how you run the math. But the universal talking head view is that Trump'll likely be slightly short at Cleveland. Cruz has such a hugely superior ground game and can manipulate the rules and delegates much much better than Trump, who has proved to have feet of clay in this aspect. (hardly surprising - Cruz is an experienced and smart politician). He is hiring some good political operators to his campaign now, but should have done so 2 months ago.

    Trump has to win something like 60% of remaining delegates to get to 1237. It remains to be seen if he can.

    For example, in Pennsylvania the winner gets only 17 pledged delegates out of a total of 71 in several categories.

    http://www.mcall.com/news/local/elections/mc-pa-republican-delegates-presidential-race-20160326-story.html
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,403

    Tory MP not happy about tax cuts over health and welfare issues, especially for mentally ill:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/14/middle-class-tax-cuts-wrong-when-so-many-rely-the-state

    I wonder what Steven Crabb's view on this is?

    If you read the article, it could be written by any New Labour MP.

    There will always be reasons to justify more spending on social welfare than provide tax relief to those bearing the heaviest tax burdens.

    The truth is that the tax burden is simply too high and we divert and spend far too much on welfare at a great economic opportunity cost to the whole of society.

    The Conservative solution is to get everyone into work, some type of work, as possible. It's good for them, pays them more money, and costs much less.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,601


    News UK News Hospitals
    A&E crisis explodes under Jeremy Hunt as waiting times reach worst level since records began
    17:19, 14 APR 2016 UPDATED 17:20, 14 APR 2016
    BY JANE KIRBY , DAN BLOOM
    A&E figures shame Jeremy Hunt
    The NHS crisis under Jeremy Hunt is laid bare today after A&E waiting times reached their worst level since records began.

    Latest figures show 12.2% of patients waited longer than four hours in February - the highest monthly figure on record. In April 2010 was just 1.7%

    Is this crisis worse than the last one then? We never seem to be out of an NHS crisis, so it has no emotional impact on me.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Just on - Clinton campaign and DNC suing Arizona over voting rights.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,440
    GeoffM said:

    Why in August? Are all the other doctors off to watch the Olympic Games?
    I suspect it's because August is 'change-over' time in the NHS. New doctors begin rotations, old ones go off and work in consultant roles elsewhere.

    (You should never get sick in August.)
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,403

    If you read the article, it could be written by any New Labour MP.

    There will always be reasons to justify more spending on social welfare than provide tax relief to those bearing the heaviest tax burdens.

    The truth is that the tax burden is simply too high and we divert and spend far too much on welfare at a great economic opportunity cost to the whole of society.

    The Conservative solution is to get everyone into work, some type of work, as possible. It's good for them, pays them more money, and costs much less.
    Dan Poulter is also pretty soaking from looking at his record.

    A male Heidi Allen.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    rcs1000 said:

    I suspect it's because August is 'change-over' time in the NHS. New doctors begin rotations, old ones go off and work in consultant roles elsewhere.

    (You should never get sick in August.)
    They all move at the same time? That's insane.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,403
    rcs1000 said:

    I think that's absolutely right.

    Longer-term - and I know this is slightly controversial - I would abolish VAT and income tax and move to consumption tax with a large tax-free element to make it non-regressive. This is something we could do outside the EU. Albeit something that would be politically a complete non-starter.
    How can I vote for you?

    Have you ever considered standing for selection?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924
    Yesterdays YG - JICIPM

    LAB: 34% (-)
    CON: 31% (-2)
    UKIP: 17% (+1)
    LDEM: 8% (+2)
    (via YouGov)

    I missed it!!!
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    watford30 said:

    Not content with ignoring the Hippocratic oath, are greedy docs on a go slow now?
    No it is just another Conservative Health Minister trying to destroy the NHS .The doctors unlike Hunt retain the trust of the majority of people in this country .
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Oops..... Not again.

    Labour leader embarrassed again as it emerges he filled out WRONG tax form – and still won’t publish details of his income from pensions
    Jeremy Corbyn has admitted failing to include income from two pensions on his tax return
    His office insists all tax due was paid through the PAYE system, but is refusing to give figures
    Also managed to enter details on the wrong pages of his return and ignore a section specifically for MPs

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3539446/Labour-leader-embarrassed-emerges-filled-WRONG-tax-form-won-t-publish-details-income-pensions.html#ixzz45pGAZt7S
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,440
    Tim_B said:

    Pre-VAT sales tax was 8-10%.
    VAT is actually a very well designed tax, with low-levels of avoidance, and which has the admirable side effect of catching people who come to the UK. If we exited the EU, giving up the apparatus of VAT to replace it with a sales tax would not be sensible; we'd be better off keeping our existing system, and merely having - Mr Tyndall suggested - rather more control on levels.

    The consumption tax I am thinking of would act like this http://www.forbes.com/sites/leonardburman/2012/06/04/a-progressive-consumption-tax/#10e7e472316d
  • nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800


    News UK News Hospitals
    A&E crisis explodes under Jeremy Hunt as waiting times reach worst level since records began
    17:19, 14 APR 2016 UPDATED 17:20, 14 APR 2016
    BY JANE KIRBY , DAN BLOOM
    A&E figures shame Jeremy Hunt
    The NHS crisis under Jeremy Hunt is laid bare today after A&E waiting times reached their worst level since records began.

    Latest figures show 12.2% of patients waited longer than four hours in February - the highest monthly figure on record. In April 2010 was just 1.7%

    How many more potential customers are there in February 2016 than there was in April 2010?

    Genuine question.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,035

    Nope. Some of us have been consistent in our views. You just don't seem to want to hear them.
    With all due respect to your own importance could you enlighten me as to the official Leave answer to the question ?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924
    edited April 2016
    rcs1000 said:

    I suspect it's because August is 'change-over' time in the NHS. New doctors begin rotations, old ones go off and work in consultant roles elsewhere.

    (You should never get sick in August.)
    1st Wednesday in August every year.

    Round 1 recruitment figures show this August has record number of gaps by a mile.

    Can anyone guess why?
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    rcs1000 said:

    VAT is actually a very well designed tax, with low-levels of avoidance, and which has the admirable side effect of catching people who come to the UK. If we exited the EU, giving up the apparatus of VAT to replace it with a sales tax would not be sensible; we'd be better off keeping our existing system, and merely having - Mr Tyndall suggested - rather more control on levels.

    The consumption tax I am thinking of would act like this http://www.forbes.com/sites/leonardburman/2012/06/04/a-progressive-consumption-tax/#10e7e472316d
    I like the idea of a flat tax.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    watford30 said:

    Not content with ignoring the Hippocratic oath, are greedy docs on a go slow now?
    GeoffM said:

    Why in August? Are all the other doctors off to watch the Olympic Games?
    The Junior contract imposition is the first Wednesday in August. That is the day that all new graduates start in their Foundation posts for 2 years, and all the Foundation graduates start in their Specialist or GP training posts. The interview rounds for these have been running for the last few months. Some programmes are filled, but the fill rate overall is down substantially, particularly in specialities like Psychiatry, Paediatrics, Obstetrics, Anaesthetics and core medicine. There will be major rota gaps even if people take up their offers, and if imposition is not withdrawn some may change their minds and decline the new terms and conditions.

    I am not looking forward to firefight the crisis that Mr Hunt has created.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited April 2016

    No it is just another Conservative Health Minister trying to destroy the NHS .The doctors unlike Hunt retain the trust of the majority of people in this country .
    Ah, another one who views the NHS as a religion, operating in the interests of the producer.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924

    How many more potential customers are there in February 2016 than there was in April 2010?

    Genuine question.
    Lots

    Prime reasons
    1 Cuts to social care and
    2 GP record levels of vacancies
  • nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800

    Lots

    Prime reasons
    1 Cuts to social care and
    2 GP record levels of vacancies
    Answer the question please.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924

    The Junior contract imposition is the first Wednesday in August. That is the day that all new graduates start in their Foundation posts for 2 years, and all the Foundation graduates start in their Specialist or GP training posts. The interview rounds for these have been running for the last few months. Some programmes are filled, but the fill rate overall is down substantially, particularly in specialities like Psychiatry, Paediatrics, Obstetrics, Anaesthetics and core medicine. There will be major rota gaps even if people take up their offers, and if imposition is not withdrawn some may change their minds and decline the new terms and conditions.

    I am not looking forward to firefight the crisis that Mr Hunt has created.
    Watford is in denial.

    Have you seen the national round 1 recruitment figures?

    Really Scary I cant see Hunt surviving these unless round 2 shows some amazing recovery (which I doubt)
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    1st Wednesday in August every year.

    Round 1 recruitment figures show this August has record number of gaps by a mile.

    Can anyone guess why?
    Because the unions are causing mischief and stirring trouble?
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    watford30 said:

    Ah, another one who views the NHS as a religion, operating in the interests of the producer.
    I do not view it as a religion but something that is vital to my personal health especially at the moment > I do not appreciate it that Hunt is playing politics with my health at this ( or any ) time .
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited April 2016
    Necessity is the mother of invention. Perhaps, the NHS might actually improve the way it operates if the tap of ever more resources is turned off.

    My wife is on her fourth attempt in the last fortnight to get an appointment booked due purely to NHS administrative cock-ups.

    No private business would survive such consistent inefficiency.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited April 2016

    I do not view it as a religion but something that is vital to my personal health especially at the moment > I do not appreciate it that Hunt is playing politics with my health at this ( or any ) time .
    Greedy doctors are playing politics with everyone's health. Producer interests over those of patients. That worries me.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924

    Answer the question please.
    Lots is my answer.

    The reasons are not brain surgeon stuff. Just beyond this Government



  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,789

    Watford is in denial.

    Have you seen the national round 1 recruitment figures?

    Really Scary I cant see Hunt surviving these unless round 2 shows some amazing recovery (which I doubt)
    what are you worried about we;ll just ship a shedload in from Romania.

    Cheaper too - vote remain to save the NHS.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    OllyT said:

    With all due respect to your own importance could you enlighten me as to the official Leave answer to the question ?
    The official Leave answer is that we control the answer. It will be up to us to determine through Parliamentary democracy, hence the slogan "Vote Leave Take Control".
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,403

    The Junior contract imposition is the first Wednesday in August. That is the day that all new graduates start in their Foundation posts for 2 years, and all the Foundation graduates start in their Specialist or GP training posts. The interview rounds for these have been running for the last few months. Some programmes are filled, but the fill rate overall is down substantially, particularly in specialities like Psychiatry, Paediatrics, Obstetrics, Anaesthetics and core medicine. There will be major rota gaps even if people take up their offers, and if imposition is not withdrawn some may change their minds and decline the new terms and conditions.

    I am not looking forward to firefight the crisis that Mr Hunt has created.
    Good for Hunt for sticking to his guns. I hope he stays to the Autumn to see it through.

    Maybe he's worth a bet..
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924

    Because the unions are causing mischief and stirring trouble?
    No this is more amount no demand from new potential recruits.

    Hardly surprising is it?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,403

    Yesterdays YG - JICIPM

    LAB: 34% (-)
    CON: 31% (-2)
    UKIP: 17% (+1)
    LDEM: 8% (+2)
    (via YouGov)

    I missed it!!!

    GOWNBPM
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    watford30 said:

    Greedy doctors are playing politics with everyone's health. Producer interests over those of patients. That worries me.
    You are living in a fantasy UK . What should worry you is why the Conservatives seem only able to select Health Secretaries who have a wish to destroy the NHS .
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    How many more potential customers are there in February 2016 than there was in April 2010?

    Genuine question.
    For the workforce issues:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-35479749

    And this audit of 100 million GP consultations shows the workload of GPs in terms of numbers of consultations up 16 % over a a 6 year period. Consultations went up both in terms of numbers of consultations per capita and also duration.


    http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(16)00620-6/abstract?utm_source=Facebook &utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=ofgp&sf23845310=1
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924

    Good for Hunt for sticking to his guns. I hope he stays to the Autumn to see it through.

    Maybe he's worth a bet..
    Sees what through?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,235
    Jeremy Hunt is one of the big reasons I'm most likely voting Tory in the upcoming elections.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,789

    For the workforce issues:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-35479749

    And this audit of 100 million GP consultations shows the workload of GPs in terms of numbers of consultations up 16 % over a a 6 year period. Consultations went up both in terms of numbers of consultations per capita and also duration.


    http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(16)00620-6/abstract?utm_source=Facebook &utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=ofgp&sf23845310=1
    so work load up 16% over 6 years yet in one year Blair gave them an average 23% pay rise..

    so still a 7% productivity gap.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Discussing now on Fox, CNN is about to - Cruz needs to get about 88% of remaining delegates to get to 1237. That's not going to happen. So his strategy is to prevent Trump from getting 1237. After the first convention ballot his team can maneuver to vacuum up enough delegates to win. Cruz is excellent at this backroom stuff. Trump isn't.

    Cruz is working hard to get some of the 54 uncommitted delegates in PA, where the winner only gets 17 committed delegates.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    If we are going to pass all those laws and regulations, then surely it makes sense to stay in?

    Leaveing only makes sense on this issue if the plan is to repeal some or all of the regulations, something that may make a single market an impossibility.

    Bearing in mind the strong links between the right wing and the Leave campaign we can be fairly certain there is no intention to maintain the EUs social protections.
    No you miss the point. Labour's argument for being in the EU is inter alia, it lets them see all sorts of laws passed in the UK that otherwise wouldn't be. But, parliament being sovereign, there are only two reason why those same law could not be passed by a UK parliament, and hence not be needed at the supranational level, a) because they can't get elected and b) because they don't have either the votes or the balls when they do get elected. Both appear to be in effect complaining about voters voting the wrong way.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924

    what are you worried about we;ll just ship a shedload in from Romania.

    Cheaper too - vote remain to save the NHS.
    Tick Tock 17 weeks to cave in.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,789

    Tick Tock 17 weeks to cave in.
    I;m sure that means something,
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    OllyT said:


    If Leave can't promise anything they could at least tell us what they actually want. Are we going to put a stop to immigration or are we going to sign up to EFFTA/EEA? You can't dither on the question for the next 2 months.
    Yes, they can, leave is about obtaining a divorce, not finding a new girlfriend.
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @bigjohnowls


    'News UK News Hospitals
    A&E crisis explodes under Jeremy Hunt as waiting times reach worst level since records began
    17:19, 14 APR 2016 UPDATED 17:20, 14 APR 2016
    BY JANE KIRBY , DAN BLOOM
    A&E figures shame Jeremy Hunt
    The NHS crisis under Jeremy Hunt is laid bare today after A&E waiting times reached their worst level since records began.'

    If the Daily Mirror and Labour party say this it must be true.


    Though with the much smaller budget increase the NHS was promised by Labour last year the system would have already collapsed


  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,235
    Tim_B said:

    Discussing now on Fox, CNN is about to - Cruz needs to get about 88% of remaining delegates to get to 1237. That's not going to happen. So his strategy is to prevent Trump from getting 1237. After the first convention ballot his team can maneuver to vacuum up enough delegates to win. Cruz is excellent at this backroom stuff. Trump isn't.

    Cruz is working hard to get some of the 54 uncommitted delegates in PA, where the winner only gets 17 committed delegates.

    Who do you want to win though :D ?

    I'm half guessing Kasich, but he's unlikely :p
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited April 2016

    Watford is in denial.

    Have you seen the national round 1 recruitment figures?

    Really Scary I cant see Hunt surviving these unless round 2 shows some amazing recovery (which I doubt)
    I have seen the figures, and they do scare me.

    Recruitment and retention are a major problem. Numbers of people applying for paeds and obstetrics are particularly bad, in large part because these posts are 75% female. The new contract discriminates agaist women in its own analysis.

    I can patch together enough cover for my own department, I think, but have not yet been told how many unfilled slots we have. It is going to impact on non emergency services too. I also think that the goodwill will have disappeared and covering short-notice gaps will be very trying.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924
    Pulpstar said:

    Jeremy Hunt is one of the big reasons I'm most likely voting Tory in the upcoming elections.

    Why do you need an excuse. When did you last vote non Tory

    I bet the Lab candidate in Killamarsh is shitting himself.

    In fact is there even an election other than PCC?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924
    john_zims said:

    @bigjohnowls


    'News UK News Hospitals
    A&E crisis explodes under Jeremy Hunt as waiting times reach worst level since records began
    17:19, 14 APR 2016 UPDATED 17:20, 14 APR 2016
    BY JANE KIRBY , DAN BLOOM
    A&E figures shame Jeremy Hunt
    The NHS crisis under Jeremy Hunt is laid bare today after A&E waiting times reached their worst level since records began.'

    If the Daily Mirror and Labour party say this it must be true.


    Though with the much smaller budget increase the NHS was promised by Labour last year the system would have already collapsed


    Cuts to social care?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    The official Leave answer is that we control the answer.

    Except that's total bollocks

    We have no control over what other countries will and won't do, what deals we may or may not be able to do.

    We will have as much control over post brexit effects as the man who lights the blue touch-paper and runs away...
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,235
    edited April 2016

    Why do you need an excuse. When did you last vote non Tory

    I bet the Lab candidate in Killamarsh is shitting himself.

    In fact is there even an election other than PCC?
    I voted Green in the General. Reasonably confident it'll be a big Labour win here :D
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,789
    Scott_P said:

    Except that's total bollocks

    We have no control over what other countries will and won't do, what deals we may or may not be able to do.

    We will have as much control over post brexit effects as the man who lights the blue touch-paper and runs away...

    We have no control over what other countries will and won't do, what deals we may or may not be able to do.

    the same applies under QMV - or hadn't you realised that ?
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    I just got of the phone from Mrs Indigo (Snr) who has just been the lucky recipient of one of the £9m government brochures... she opined that is didn't tell her anything useful and she got more solid information out of the village newsletter, and wanted to know when she would receive some real figures to consider rather than warm words and flimflam :D
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699

    Why do you need an excuse. When did you last vote non Tory

    I bet the Lab candidate in Killamarsh is shitting himself.

    In fact is there even an election other than PCC?
    No local elections this year in NE Derbyshire .
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924

    I have seen the figures, and they do scare me.

    Recruitment and retention are a major problem. Numbers of people applying for paeds and obstetrics are particularly bad, in large part because these posts are 75% female. The new contract discriminates agaist women in its own analysis.

    I can patch together enough cover for my own department, I think, but have not yet been told how many unfilled slots we have. It is going to impact on non emergency services too. I also think that the goodwill will have disappeared and covering short-notice gaps will be very trying.
    Pulpstar and Casino genuinely think Hunt is doing a good job too.

    And they are 2 of the saner PB Tories FFS
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    so work load up 16% over 6 years yet in one year Blair gave them an average 23% pay rise..

    so still a 7% productivity gap.
    That was 11 years ago (in a previous General Practice crisis) since then GP pay has declined about 20% in real terms, so getting back to what it was.

    On the whole though it is not pay that my GP colleagues are unhappy with, it is the unsustainable workload.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924
    Pulpstar said:

    I voted Green in the General. Reasonably confident it'll be a big Labour win here :D
    Is there an election?

    I thought was only PCC in NE Derbyshire
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited April 2016
    john_zims said:

    @bigjohnowls


    'News UK News Hospitals
    A&E crisis explodes under Jeremy Hunt as waiting times reach worst level since records began
    17:19, 14 APR 2016 UPDATED 17:20, 14 APR 2016
    BY JANE KIRBY , DAN BLOOM
    A&E figures shame Jeremy Hunt
    The NHS crisis under Jeremy Hunt is laid bare today after A&E waiting times reached their worst level since records began.'

    If the Daily Mirror and Labour party say this it must be true.


    Though with the much smaller budget increase the NHS was promised by Labour last year the system would have already collapsed


    As the massively inefficient and financially wasteful Lansley 'reforms' wouldn't have been enacted the NHS would have probably done more with less.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,789

    That was 11 years ago (in a previous General Practice crisis) since then GP pay has declined about 20% in real terms, so getting back to what it was.

    On the whole though it is not pay that my GP colleagues are unhappy with, it is the unsustainable workload.
    I know lots of GPs and they always moan. It's just middle class special pleading. As for a 20% pay cut, the ones I know seem to be spending more than ever.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Latest ARSE4EU Referendum Projection Countdown

    13 hours 13 minutes 13 seconds
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,235
    edited April 2016

    Is there an election?

    I thought was only PCC in NE Derbyshire
    I've got polling cards for something or other, I'll be in the Netherlands at the time of the vote so need to apply for a postal vote tommorow.

    I'll vote no matter what :D
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    I know lots of GPs and they always moan. It's just middle class special pleading. As for a 20% pay cut, the ones I know seem to be spending more than ever.
    Sure, like farmers, tradesmen and small businessmen, GP's always have something to moan about.

    Its the voting with their feet, and the problems with recruitment and retention that show there is a real problem.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924
    Alistair said:

    As the massively inefficient and financially wasteful Lansley 'reforms' wouldn't have been enacted the NHS would have probably done more with less.
    BINGO
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,403
    Scott_P said:

    Except that's total bollocks

    We have no control over what other countries will and won't do, what deals we may or may not be able to do.

    We will have as much control over post brexit effects as the man who lights the blue touch-paper and runs away...
    We have no control over what the eurozone choose to do if we stay, particularly if they act en-bloc and easily exceed the 65% QMV threshold
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,235
    @bigjohnowls Much as I admire Hunt I am a bit concerned about the possibility of vexatious litigation if TTIP comes in as a threat to the NHS.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,789
    edited April 2016

    Sure, like farmers, tradesmen and small businessmen, GP's always have something to moan about.

    Its the voting with their feet, and the problems with recruitment and retention that show there is a real problem.
    medicine is the most oversubscibed degree in the UK and will remian soi as UK GPs are among the best paid in Europe,

    I'm off on hols with my GP mate in about 4 weeks time, the only thing he ever seriously moans about is female GPs. He bitches that most of the female GPs want it as a part-time well paid job and that when they get pregnant it's left to the blokes in the practice to pick up the workload.

    By chance two of my daughters best mates are now year 5 and it is their intention to become GPs as they want a part time post. I haven't the heart to tell him.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,403

    Pulpstar and Casino genuinely think Hunt is doing a good job too.

    And they are 2 of the saner PB Tories FFS
    I'll take that as a compliment.

    I admire the way Hunt has stuck to his guns in delivering a manifesto pledge at a time when there is no more money for the NHS - cheaper 24/7 rostering is the only way, unless we all want to pay a lot mode tax

    I don't admire just how long he's taken to do it, the poor PR and air war and awful Government salesmanship of the messaging
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,235
    edited April 2016
    I like the fact Hunt has stuck to his guns, it's a big contrast to Boris in his TFL dealings. First whiff of gunpowder and he was hopping to Crow's tune.

    One of the big reasons he's unsuitable to be PM.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    edited April 2016
    Trump's campaign manager will not be prosecuted for battery, even though there was no doubt he touched her arm.

    The prosecutor was scathing about Michele Fields, and said there was little chance of a conviction.
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @Alanbrooke


    'so work load up 16% over 6 years yet in one year Blair gave them an average 23% pay rise..

    so still a 7% productivity gap.'



    Between 2000 & 2009 Doctor's pay rose by 48% & NHS productivity fell by 2%.


    Strike all you like, doctors – technology will soon take away ...
    www.telegraph.co.uk › News › NHS
    12 Jan 2016 - Those conditions may well apply to junior doctors and the NHS so the ... Unless the NHS can increase its productivity and get more for every ...
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    medicine is the most oversubscibed degree in the UK and will remian soi as UK GPs are
    It is not so oversubscribed as it once was. At the end of Foundation year 2 only 53% of UK graduates continue in postgraduate training as either specialists or GP's. This is down from 73% just 4 years ago. Some go into research, some the pharmaceutical industry. About 8% go abroad (largely unchanged over 4 years interestingly), but the biggest change is the number leaving the profession entirely. That is a worrying trend as doctors in research or abroad can potentially be tempted back, but those that have quit entirely are very hard to retrieve.

    Still, I am sure Mr Hunt has a plan.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Tim_B said:

    Trump's campaign manager will not be prosecuted for battery, even though there was no doubt he touched her arm.

    The prosecutor was scathing about Michele Fields, and said there was little chance of a conviction.

    Michele Fields resigned from Breitbart over the incident.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,789

    It is not so oversubscribed as it once was. At the end of Foundation year 2 only 53% of UK graduates continue in postgraduate training as either specialists or GP's. This is down from 73% just 4 years ago. Some go into research, some the pharmaceutical industry. About 8% go abroad (largely unchanged over 4 years interestingly), but the biggest change is the number leaving the profession entirely. That is a worrying trend as doctors in research or abroad can potentially be tempted back, but those that have quit entirely are very hard to retrieve.

    Still, I am sure Mr Hunt has a plan.
    all you're saying is we don't train enough doctors.

    That has been the case for about 20 years and as my GP mate gripes what's the point of training so many women when you need two to fill one GP post.

    However look on the bright side with UK GPs being so well paid we can import loads from Poland at cheaper rates. And you'll vote to make sure we do.
  • JackW said:

    Latest ARSE4EU Referendum Projection Countdown

    13 hours 13 minutes 13 seconds

    When you post, it would be helpful to see how each number has moved from the start.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,255
    OllyT said:

    With all due respect to your own importance could you enlighten me as to the official Leave answer to the question ?
    As I understand it the official Leave position is to negotiate an individual arrangement with the EU outside of EFTA. It is not a position I agree with personally but then I have never claimed to speak for the official campaign.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    all you're saying is we don't train enough doctors.

    That has been the case for about 20 years and as my GP mate gripes what's the point of training so many women when you need two to fill one GP post.

    However look on the bright side with UK GPs being so well paid we can import loads from Poland at cheaper rates. And you'll vote to make sure we do.
    I will do.

    Though we don't get so many Polish applicants, mostly Greek and Romanian, in Medicine. One of the non-tarrif barriers that was removed by the EU is mutual recognition and standardisation of professional qualifications.

    Non-EU doctors have many more hoops to jump through in getting their qualifications recognised (and very difficult to get postgraduate qualifications recognised at all), and visas are very tough to get. In practice non-EU recruitment has become a trickle.
  • That was 11 years ago (in a previous General Practice crisis) since then GP pay has declined about 20% in real terms, so getting back to what it was.

    On the whole though it is not pay that my GP colleagues are unhappy with, it is the unsustainable workload.
    The prevalence of part time female gp's is a major inefficiency compared to 20 years ago. The lack of continuity wastes resources and increases the risk of mistakes.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Klopps flopps busy spoiling the UK's coefficient, I see.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited April 2016

    When you post, it would be helpful to see how each number has moved from the start.
    It has shifted net 0.5% from the first ARSE4EU in the direction of Leave. Jacks ARSE is certainly not a volatile indicator.
  • I will do.

    Though we don't get so many Polish applicants, mostly Greek and Romanian, in Medicine. One of the non-tarrif barriers that was removed by the EU is mutual recognition and standardisation of professional qualifications.

    Non-EU doctors have many more hoops to jump through in getting their qualifications recognised (and very difficult to get postgraduate qualifications recognised at all), and visas are very tough to get. In practice non-EU recruitment has become a trickle.
    You are denying the female problem?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,789

    I will do.

    Though we don't get so many Polish applicants, mostly Greek and Romanian, in Medicine. One of the non-tarrif barriers that was removed by the EU is mutual recognition and standardisation of professional qualifications.

    Non-EU doctors have many more hoops to jump through in getting their qualifications recognised (and very difficult to get postgraduate qualifications recognised at all), and visas are very tough to get. In practice non-EU recruitment has become a trickle.
    so once again instead of developing our own core skills we just ship em in and don't bother contributing to a better stronger society,

  • It has shifted net 0.5% from the first ARSE4EU in the direction of Leave. Jacks ARSE is certainly not a volatile indicator.
    Thank you
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    You are denying the female problem?
    No. Though Hunt seems to. In the DoH's own analysis the new contract discriminates against the 60% of UK graduates that are female.

    Some can see a perfect storm coming, but not Mr Hunt. He has a plan I am sure.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,789

    No. Though Hunt seems to. In the DoH's own analysis the new contract discriminates against the 60% of UK graduates that are female.

    Some can see a perfect storm coming, but not Mr Hunt. He has a plan I am sure.
    It's why we need to train more or = splutter = recruit more blokes

    my mate's son also has gone in to medicine, when applyng he said his biggest disadvantage up in the Midlands was he wasn't an Asian female !
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    edited April 2016

    just bollocks.
    Thanks for the reasoning you (edit). [Still a moron level response but given the man in pub level of your posts no surprise].
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,789
    matt said:

    Thanks for the reasoning you retard.
    spoken like a corporate lawyer
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,789
    matt said:

    Thanks for the reasoning you (edit). [Still a moron level response but given the man in pub level of your posts no surprise].
    you see I've dragged you down to my level and now I;m going to beat you on experience :-)
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,035

    The official Leave answer is that we control the answer. It will be up to us to determine through Parliamentary democracy, hence the slogan "Vote Leave Take Control".
    I'll take that as a no then
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,035

    what are you worried about we;ll just ship a shedload in from Romania.

    Cheaper too - vote remain to save the NHS.

    You are having a laugh if you think anyone is going to believe that the right wing of the Tory parterre going to save the NHS.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,789
    OllyT said:


    You are having a laugh if you think anyone is going to believe that the right wing of the Tory parterre going to save the NHS.
    Why can't I have a laugh ?
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    you see I've dragged you down to my level and now I;m going to beat you on experience :-)
    PJ O'Rourke, 1995. Not.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    It's why we need to train more or = splutter = recruit more blokes

    my mate's son also has gone in to medicine, when applyng he said his biggest disadvantage up in the Midlands was he wasn't an Asian female !
    I love winding up our Deanery by suggesting quotas for white males from state schools (like myself) as we are significantly under-represented. Sometimes they think that I am teasing them!

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,789
    matt said:

    PJ O'Rourke, 1995. Not.
    Oh dear a chap who denigrates that great british invention - the pub - resorts to feeble americanisms.

    I do hope you're not like this with your clients.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited April 2016
    matt said:

    PJ O'Rourke, 1995. Not.
    I am up for a battle of wits. I will remove half mine so we can start even.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 9,016
This discussion has been closed.