politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Why LEAVE needs to neutralise PROJECT FEAR if it is to win
Comments
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Easy to say after the event - I don't recall people thinking No was a dead cert at the time.Philip_Thompson said:
Bah I don't think Brown's impact was all that it's cracked up to be. Besides a couple of rogue polls the polls barely budged from late August or any of September. After the second debate the polls pretty much flatlined at a 5% No Lead with no movement regardless of Brown's intervention. The polls nine days after Brown's intervention were identical to the polls two weeks before his intervention.MikeL said:Remember the Scottish referendum.
Just before the vote Gordon Brown started talking about the State Pension.
It was an absolute masterstroke. Up to then nobody had said anything about the State Pension - and who would have even thought of doing so?
But that's what Brown did. And you can just imagine the effect - many people who might have been 50:50 suddenly thinking:
"Oh my [expletive] ....... I never dreamt an independent Scotland might not be able to afford the current State Pension ........ oh my [expletive] ......... forget it ......... that's it ...........I 'm not chancing this".
Job done.
No doubt Remain will go for something similar.
And No won by 11% in the end - people switched late. Why? Well we don't know but seems likely because they were scared. Brown's State Pension stuff may have only have shown up once people got to the polling station.0 -
If we are going to pass all those laws and regulations, then surely it makes sense to stay in?Indigo said:It is a little bizarre that the winning argument for the government is going to amount to them telling everyone that they are too incompetent to run the UK without the help of the EU, and for Labour it is that they are too incapable of getting elected to pass the same environmental, social and industrial laws as are passed by the EU, and for the Lib Dems is going to be, we don't actually need a UK government at all, we should all be run by the EU. Funny old world.
Leaveing only makes sense on this issue if the plan is to repeal some or all of the regulations, something that may make a single market an impossibility.
Bearing in mind the strong links between the right wing and the Leave campaign we can be fairly certain there is no intention to maintain the EUs social protections.0 -
The Scottish Government did not make any predictions from its own raw research - these were all by respected bodies and at that time were used for UK and international revenue predictions as well.RobD said:
Wasn't the Scottish government's price projection even higher? Degrees of wrongness in this case!Alistair said:john_zims said:@malcolmg
'As per Scotland the scared cowardly pensioners will turn out in droves and vote REMAIN in case their pension is in danger , no thought for their children's futures etc , just naked self seeking. England is about to get a large dose of what Scotland got last year, held back and ruined by old fuddy duddies scared of being a few quid worse off. '
But the old fuddy duddies were spot on when it came to the crazy oil price forecast the SNP tried to con the voters with.
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Excellent, a virtue signalling opportunity to sound self-righteous and pure.FrancisUrquhart said:
Oh don't get me wrong the guy sounds like a buffoon.RobD said:
He's clearly not subtle enough! Saying that, I think it's fair enough to be a bit miffed. She's a pretty good journalist IMO, and should be seen as such.
Can I join in? Is there a queue forming yet?
Yes! Buffoon! Stone him!0 -
DKs voted No. There was no late switching to No. All the evidence shows that Yes voters were by far the most likely to have made up their mind late. The Majority of No voters had made up their mind more than a year in advance/were always voting No regardless.MikeL said:
Easy to say after the event - I don't recall people thinking No was a dead cert at the time.Philip_Thompson said:
Bah I don't think Brown's impact was all that it's cracked up to be. Besides a couple of rogue polls the polls barely budged from late August or any of September. After the second debate the polls pretty much flatlined at a 5% No Lead with no movement regardless of Brown's intervention. The polls nine days after Brown's intervention were identical to the polls two weeks before his intervention.MikeL said:Remember the Scottish referendum.
Just before the vote Gordon Brown started talking about the State Pension.
It was an absolute masterstroke. Up to then nobody had said anything about the State Pension - and who would have even thought of doing so?
But that's what Brown did. And you can just imagine the effect - many people who might have been 50:50 suddenly thinking:
"Oh my [expletive] ....... I never dreamt an independent Scotland might not be able to afford the current State Pension ........ oh my [expletive] ......... forget it ......... that's it ...........I 'm not chancing this".
Job done.
No doubt Remain will go for something similar.
And No won by 11% in the end - people switched late. Why? Well we don't know but seems likely because they were scared. Brown's State Pension stuff may have only have shown up once people got to the polling station.0 -
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A bit of mild mockery perhaps?GeoffM said:
Excellent, a virtue signalling opportunity to sound self-righteous and pure.FrancisUrquhart said:
Oh don't get me wrong the guy sounds like a buffoon.RobD said:
He's clearly not subtle enough! Saying that, I think it's fair enough to be a bit miffed. She's a pretty good journalist IMO, and should be seen as such.
Can I join in? Is there a queue forming yet?
Yes! Buffoon! Stone him!0 -
It is worth noting that the direction of travel of the EU (and its precursors) over the last 40 years has been very much in the direction that we in the UK have advocated: a gradual shrinkage of the CAP from 71% of the budget and oriented to producer subsidies to just 38% and that now weighted to environmental protection and rural development, expansion of the EU to the East and South, breaking down of non-tariff barriers to trade in services etc etc.Richard_Nabavi said:
That won't work, for two good reasons:MarqueeMark said:
The challenge for Leave over the coming weeks is to get the public to see that Remain is just as uncertain. There is no safe "status quo" option. There are only two options:
1. Out
2. Absorption into a European superstate
- The 'European superstate' argument is one which only the already-converted believe, and anyway it's too abstract. It's also easily countered with talk by Remain of vetos, opt-outs and the referendum lock.
- In any case, if the EU were to develop in some way which is unacceptable, we can still leave in the future anyway. We won't have closed off that option irrevocably.
The risk of Brexit is here and now - this year. The risk which the Leave campaign want to counter it with is speculative and distant.
Therefore, what Leave need to do (or, rather, needed to so, it's too late now) is come up with a serious plan for Brexit risk mitigation. Instead they have just pretended there's no serious risk, which is silly.
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But the two projections were different, and the Scottish government used the higher one?sarissa said:
The Scottish Government did not make any predictions from its own raw research - these were all by respected bodies and at that time were used for UK and international revenue predictions as well.RobD said:
Wasn't the Scottish government's price projection even higher? Degrees of wrongness in this case!Alistair said:john_zims said:@malcolmg
'As per Scotland the scared cowardly pensioners will turn out in droves and vote REMAIN in case their pension is in danger , no thought for their children's futures etc , just naked self seeking. England is about to get a large dose of what Scotland got last year, held back and ruined by old fuddy duddies scared of being a few quid worse off. '
But the old fuddy duddies were spot on when it came to the crazy oil price forecast the SNP tried to con the voters with.0 -
TCPoliticalBetting said:
In case you have not noticed, the head of Govt, the PM, is not a LEAVER so nothing can be promised from LEAVE on this aspect until after June 23rd.TOPPING said:
Except it doesn't seem to be on offer. Nor is it a credible position (according to a Leaver on here).john_zims said:@runnymede
'The best way to neutralise Project Lie is the EFTA/EEA option, even if only as a first step.'
Exactly, an excellent holding position.
Other than that it's all systems go.
If Leave can't promise anything they could at least tell us what they actually want. Are we going to put a stop to immigration or are we going to sign up to EFFTA/EEA? You can't dither on the question for the next 2 months.0 -
Tipping point...dr_spyn said:This made me smile.
https://twitter.com/smashmorePH/status/7206479977055805440 -
As I understand it those studies include non-violent abuse. That may be a very unpleasant thing but one should be clear about definitions.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Wanderer, that's not the case. Estimates vary, but 35-45% of domestic abuse victims being male is a common range. One recent Canadian study found a majority of victims being male.
Whilst there is an imbalance, it's far less than many realise. The disproportionate gender split is on funding for domestic violence victims, rather than the victims/perpetrators.
I see here http://www.lwa.org.uk/understanding-abuse/statistics.htm that LWA quotes to an average of 100 female and 30 male domestic murder victims in the UK each here. That seems to be reflected in the figures here https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/women-and-the-criminal-justice-system-2013 which also, strikingly, show a huge imbalance in the number of younger women 16-34 who self-report being the victims of domestic violence. The numbers even up, though, as people get older.0 -
@FrancisUrquhart
'I think somebody earlier said that it seems like migration to Europe had slowed dramatically...
Sicily is flooded with 2,000 migrants EVERY DAY since the Balkans route shut'
So by the summer we will be back to the same rate of migration as last year but the main route has changed.
Are Junker & Merkel going to offer the same in/out deal with Libya ?
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Well then the British people can elect a government that will restore those social protections. Or not. It'll be up to us.foxinsoxuk said:
If we are going to pass all those laws and regulations, then surely it makes sense to stay in?Indigo said:It is a little bizarre that the winning argument for the government is going to amount to them telling everyone that they are too incompetent to run the UK without the help of the EU, and for Labour it is that they are too incapable of getting elected to pass the same environmental, social and industrial laws as are passed by the EU, and for the Lib Dems is going to be, we don't actually need a UK government at all, we should all be run by the EU. Funny old world.
Leaveing only makes sense on this issue if the plan is to repeal some or all of the regulations, something that may make a single market an impossibility.
Bearing in mind the strong links between the right wing and the Leave campaign we can be fairly certain there is no intention to maintain the EUs social protections.0 -
Unless of course you assume Britons are stupid children.taffys said:
Well then the British people can elect a government that will restore those social protections. Or not. It'll be up to us.foxinsoxuk said:
If we are going to pass all those laws and regulations, then surely it makes sense to stay in?Indigo said:It is a little bizarre that the winning argument for the government is going to amount to them telling everyone that they are too incompetent to run the UK without the help of the EU, and for Labour it is that they are too incapable of getting elected to pass the same environmental, social and industrial laws as are passed by the EU, and for the Lib Dems is going to be, we don't actually need a UK government at all, we should all be run by the EU. Funny old world.
Leaveing only makes sense on this issue if the plan is to repeal some or all of the regulations, something that may make a single market an impossibility.
Bearing in mind the strong links between the right wing and the Leave campaign we can be fairly certain there is no intention to maintain the EUs social protections.0 -
They can maintain those rights by voting Remain. Leave only makes sense if they want their protections removed.taffys said:
Well then the British people can elect a government that will restore those social protections. Or not. It'll be up to us.foxinsoxuk said:
If we are going to pass all those laws and regulations, then surely it makes sense to stay in?Indigo said:It is a little bizarre that the winning argument for the government is going to amount to them telling everyone that they are too incompetent to run the UK without the help of the EU, and for Labour it is that they are too incapable of getting elected to pass the same environmental, social and industrial laws as are passed by the EU, and for the Lib Dems is going to be, we don't actually need a UK government at all, we should all be run by the EU. Funny old world.
Leaveing only makes sense on this issue if the plan is to repeal some or all of the regulations, something that may make a single market an impossibility.
Bearing in mind the strong links between the right wing and the Leave campaign we can be fairly certain there is no intention to maintain the EUs social protections.0 -
I don't think that's the reason people are voting leave....foxinsoxuk said:
They can maintain those rights by voting Remain. Leave only makes sense if they want their protections removed.taffys said:
Well then the British people can elect a government that will restore those social protections. Or not. It'll be up to us.foxinsoxuk said:
If we are going to pass all those laws and regulations, then surely it makes sense to stay in?Indigo said:It is a little bizarre that the winning argument for the government is going to amount to them telling everyone that they are too incompetent to run the UK without the help of the EU, and for Labour it is that they are too incapable of getting elected to pass the same environmental, social and industrial laws as are passed by the EU, and for the Lib Dems is going to be, we don't actually need a UK government at all, we should all be run by the EU. Funny old world.
Leaveing only makes sense on this issue if the plan is to repeal some or all of the regulations, something that may make a single market an impossibility.
Bearing in mind the strong links between the right wing and the Leave campaign we can be fairly certain there is no intention to maintain the EUs social protections.0 -
Now you are sounding rather desperate.foxinsoxuk said:
They can maintain those rights by voting Remain. Leave only makes sense if they want their protections removed.taffys said:
Well then the British people can elect a government that will restore those social protections. Or not. It'll be up to us.foxinsoxuk said:
If we are going to pass all those laws and regulations, then surely it makes sense to stay in?Indigo said:It is a little bizarre that the winning argument for the government is going to amount to them telling everyone that they are too incompetent to run the UK without the help of the EU, and for Labour it is that they are too incapable of getting elected to pass the same environmental, social and industrial laws as are passed by the EU, and for the Lib Dems is going to be, we don't actually need a UK government at all, we should all be run by the EU. Funny old world.
Leaveing only makes sense on this issue if the plan is to repeal some or all of the regulations, something that may make a single market an impossibility.
Bearing in mind the strong links between the right wing and the Leave campaign we can be fairly certain there is no intention to maintain the EUs social protections.
Go lie down for a bit. You'll feel better for it.0 -
But they can elect another government that will restore them in the future. Nothing is cast in stone.foxinsoxuk said:
They can maintain those rights by voting Remain. Leave only makes sense if they want their protections removed.taffys said:
Well then the British people can elect a government that will restore those social protections. Or not. It'll be up to us.foxinsoxuk said:
If we are going to pass all those laws and regulations, then surely it makes sense to stay in?Indigo said:It is a little bizarre that the winning argument for the government is going to amount to them telling everyone that they are too incompetent to run the UK without the help of the EU, and for Labour it is that they are too incapable of getting elected to pass the same environmental, social and industrial laws as are passed by the EU, and for the Lib Dems is going to be, we don't actually need a UK government at all, we should all be run by the EU. Funny old world.
Leaveing only makes sense on this issue if the plan is to repeal some or all of the regulations, something that may make a single market an impossibility.
Bearing in mind the strong links between the right wing and the Leave campaign we can be fairly certain there is no intention to maintain the EUs social protections.
You really aren't very good at understanding this 'democracy' thing, are you?0 -
dr_spyn said:
This made me smile.
https://twitter.com/smashmorePH/status/720647997705580544
That relies on the big assumption that anywhere else would have him...0 -
Mr. Wanderer, men are (I believe) less likely than women to report being victims of domestic violence, so reported crimes in a given year may not be the most accurate approach (still worthwhile, though, if only to track trends).0
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The referendum is a democratic act. A vote for Remain is a vote to keep the social and environmental protections of the EU.taffys said:
But they can elect another government that will restore them in the future. Nothing is cast in stone.foxinsoxuk said:
They can maintain those rights by voting Remain. Leave only makes sense if they want their protections removed.taffys said:
Well then the British people can elect a government that will restore those social protections. Or not. It'll be up to us.foxinsoxuk said:
If we are going to pass all those laws and regulations, then surely it makes sense to stay in?Indigo said:It is a little bizarre that the winning argument for the government is going to amount to them telling everyone that they are too incompetent to run the UK without the help of the EU, and for Labour it is that they are too incapable of getting elected to pass the same environmental, social and industrial laws as are passed by the EU, and for the Lib Dems is going to be, we don't actually need a UK government at all, we should all be run by the EU. Funny old world.
Leaveing only makes sense on this issue if the plan is to repeal some or all of the regulations, something that may make a single market an impossibility.
Bearing in mind the strong links between the right wing and the Leave campaign we can be fairly certain there is no intention to maintain the EUs social protections.
You really aren't very good at understanding this 'democracy' thing, are you?0 -
Can someone explain to me why John Kasich is now trading at 11/1 for the Republican nomination on Betfair? Isn't a zero missing?0
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They return to our Gov the right to decide these things. We then vote for the Govt or not.OllyT said:TCPoliticalBetting said:
In case you have not noticed, the head of Govt, the PM, is not a LEAVER so nothing can be promised from LEAVE on this aspect until after June 23rd.TOPPING said:
Except it doesn't seem to be on offer. Nor is it a credible position (according to a Leaver on here).john_zims said:@runnymede
'The best way to neutralise Project Lie is the EFTA/EEA option, even if only as a first step.'
Exactly, an excellent holding position.
Other than that it's all systems go.
If Leave can't promise anything they could at least tell us what they actually want. Are we going to put a stop to immigration or are we going to sign up to EFFTA/EEA? You can't dither on the question for the next 2 months.
You seem uncomfortable with the concept of power residing in the UK Govt.0 -
Obviously there are other issues too.RobD said:
I don't think that's the reason people are voting leave....foxinsoxuk said:
They can maintain those rights by voting Remain. Leave only makes sense if they want their protections removed.taffys said:
Well then the British people can elect a government that will restore those social protections. Or not. It'll be up to us.foxinsoxuk said:
If we are going to pass all those laws and regulations, then surely it makes sense to stay in?Indigo said:It is a little bizarre that the winning argument for the government is going to amount to them telling everyone that they are too incompetent to run the UK without the help of the EU, and for Labour it is that they are too incapable of getting elected to pass the same environmental, social and industrial laws as are passed by the EU, and for the Lib Dems is going to be, we don't actually need a UK government at all, we should all be run by the EU. Funny old world.
Leaveing only makes sense on this issue if the plan is to repeal some or all of the regulations, something that may make a single market an impossibility.
Bearing in mind the strong links between the right wing and the Leave campaign we can be fairly certain there is no intention to maintain the EUs social protections.0 -
Corbyn makes his support for the EU absolutely clear (or the EU is absolutely crap but vote Remain anyway):
https://twitter.com/itvnews/status/7205482469768847360 -
We're apprentice too stupid to sort that out on our own? It was basically feudal before 1973.foxinsoxuk said:
The referendum is a democratic act. A vote for Remain is a vote to keep the social and environmental protections of the EU.taffys said:
But they can elect another government that will restore them in the future. Nothing is cast in stone.foxinsoxuk said:
They can maintain those rights by voting Remain. Leave only makes sense if they want their protections removed.taffys said:
Well then the British people can elect a government that will restore those social protections. Or not. It'll be up to us.foxinsoxuk said:
If we are going to pass all those laws and regulations, then surely it makes sense to stay in?Indigo said:It is a little bizarre that the winning argument for the government is going to amount to them telling everyone that they are too incompetent to run the UK without the help of the EU, and for Labour it is that they are too incapable of getting elected to pass the same environmental, social and industrial laws as are passed by the EU, and for the Lib Dems is going to be, we don't actually need a UK government at all, we should all be run by the EU. Funny old world.
Leaveing only makes sense on this issue if the plan is to repeal some or all of the regulations, something that may make a single market an impossibility.
Bearing in mind the strong links between the right wing and the Leave campaign we can be fairly certain there is no intention to maintain the EUs social protections.
You really aren't very good at understanding this 'democracy' thing, are you?0 -
Tory MP not happy about tax cuts over health and welfare issues, especially for mentally ill:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/14/middle-class-tax-cuts-wrong-when-so-many-rely-the-state
I wonder what Steven Crabb's view on this is?0 -
The EU: she's ugly, but at least I get a shag....Speedy said:Corbyn makes his support for the EU absolutely clear (or the EU is absolutely crap but vote Remain anyway):
https://twitter.com/itvnews/status/720548246976884736
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This would be the man who it was said would approach women in the morning making comments about his person and how it resembled a broom handle, would it? Allegedly etc....FrancisUrquhart said:Don't leave Boris Johnson alone with your daughter warns Red Ken [who has fathered five children by three women]...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3539907/Talk-pot-kettle-Don-t-leave-Boris-Johnson-daughter-warns-Red-Ken-fathered-five-children-three-women.html
At least I guess he isn't calling for prison time...
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Venezuela?MarqueeMark said:dr_spyn said:This made me smile.
https://twitter.com/smashmorePH/status/720647997705580544
That relies on the big assumption that anywhere else would have him...0 -
I'm not getting out of bed for anything less than angry villagers running around with torches and pitchforks.RobD said:
A bit of mild mockery perhaps?GeoffM said:
Excellent, a virtue signalling opportunity to sound self-righteous and pure.FrancisUrquhart said:
Oh don't get me wrong the guy sounds like a buffoon.RobD said:
He's clearly not subtle enough! Saying that, I think it's fair enough to be a bit miffed. She's a pretty good journalist IMO, and should be seen as such.
Can I join in? Is there a queue forming yet?
Yes! Buffoon! Stone him!0 -
No idea. I guess people are thinking that somehow he falls into it at a contested convention.AlastairMeeks said:Can someone explain to me why John Kasich is now trading at 11/1 for the Republican nomination on Betfair? Isn't a zero missing?
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A winning argument, full of confidence.MarqueeMark said:
The EU: she's ugly, but at least I get a shag....Speedy said:Corbyn makes his support for the EU absolutely clear (or the EU is absolutely crap but vote Remain anyway):
https://twitter.com/itvnews/status/7205482469768847360 -
That's a valid point. The imbalance in murders doesn't depend on self-reporting though.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Wanderer, men are (I believe) less likely than women to report being victims of domestic violence, so reported crimes in a given year may not be the most accurate approach (still worthwhile, though, if only to track trends).
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Only to ransom...Hertsmere_Pubgoer said:
Venezuela?MarqueeMark said:dr_spyn said:This made me smile.
https://twitter.com/smashmorePH/status/720647997705580544
That relies on the big assumption that anywhere else would have him...0 -
Mr. Wanderer, aye, that is true.0
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Were you around for Dave's tax return?GeoffM said:
I'm not getting out of bed for anything less than angry villagers running around with torches and pitchforks.RobD said:
A bit of mild mockery perhaps?GeoffM said:
Excellent, a virtue signalling opportunity to sound self-righteous and pure.FrancisUrquhart said:
Oh don't get me wrong the guy sounds like a buffoon.RobD said:
He's clearly not subtle enough! Saying that, I think it's fair enough to be a bit miffed. She's a pretty good journalist IMO, and should be seen as such.
Can I join in? Is there a queue forming yet?
Yes! Buffoon! Stone him!
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Yours is the perfect pie in the sky argument for Leave . Vote leave and EU lead will be magically turned into gold , water will become wine and if somehow this does not materialise we can blame Cameron or the Govt for not delivering .TCPoliticalBetting said:
They return to our Gov the right to decide these things. We then vote for the Govt or not.OllyT said:TCPoliticalBetting said:
In case you have not noticed, the head of Govt, the PM, is not a LEAVER so nothing can be promised from LEAVE on this aspect until after June 23rd.TOPPING said:
Except it doesn't seem to be on offer. Nor is it a credible position (according to a Leaver on here).john_zims said:@runnymede
'The best way to neutralise Project Lie is the EFTA/EEA option, even if only as a first step.'
Exactly, an excellent holding position.
Other than that it's all systems go.
If Leave can't promise anything they could at least tell us what they actually want. Are we going to put a stop to immigration or are we going to sign up to EFFTA/EEA? You can't dither on the question for the next 2 months.
You seem uncomfortable with the concept of power residing in the UK Govt.0 -
On the basis of previous comments I would hazard a guess that the answer to that is Yesrcs1000 said:
Indigo. Come on. Do you believe there's a conspiracy between the Greek government, the UN and the EU? Really?Indigo said:
It's not that if a client lied to you last time about the value of something, it's not inconceivable that he might lie to you about it the next time as well ?rcs1000 said:
The biggest lesson I've learned from a 20 year career finance is: if you don't like what the numbers are telling you, your first though must not be "they must be wrong"Indigo said:
If we can't trust the Germans to tell us the truth about migrant related events on New Year's Day, it might be a touch optimistic to expect accurate reporting about the number of immigrants landing as wellrcs1000 said:
It has slowed dramatically: there were 10,000 a day by sea alone in the middle of last year.FrancisUrquhart said:I think somebody earlier said that it seems like migration to Europe had slowed dramatically...
Sicily is flooded with 2,000 migrants EVERY DAY since the Balkans route shut
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3539484/High-five-Europe-patrol-migrant-boats-pick-refugee-dinghies-30-miles-Libya-bring-270-miles-Sicily-new-Lesbos.html0 -
Today, I got an advertising sheet from the 'stronger in' campaign. It looks pretty cheap - no illustrations, and no colour, just pure text, with a little grey shading.
On one side, it has 6 pro-EU quotes, from Mark Carney, Richard Branson, Carolyn McCall, Hugh Orde, Karren Brady, and Frances O'Grady, the TIC general secretary.
On the other side it has five pro-EU facts, with sources cited: 3 million jobs linked to EU exports (the treasury), lower prices in UK shops (the LSE), two hundred thousand UK businesses trading with the EU (HMRC), exit would cost the average family at least £850 a year (the LSE), and the UK gets £66 million of investment daily from EU countries, more than our membership feeds (Office of National Statistics.)
All the facts are open to dispute, of course.
Overall, this is a message I can't imagine exciting anyone - too drab. It's a dull appeal to expert wisdom.0 -
What?MarkSenior said:
Yours is the perfect pie in the sky argument for Leave . Vote leave and EU lead will be magically turned into gold , water will become wine and if somehow this does not materialise we can blame Cameron or the Govt for not delivering .TCPoliticalBetting said:
They return to our Gov the right to decide these things. We then vote for the Govt or not.OllyT said:TCPoliticalBetting said:
In case you have not noticed, the head of Govt, the PM, is not a LEAVER so nothing can be promised from LEAVE on this aspect until after June 23rd.TOPPING said:
Except it doesn't seem to be on offer. Nor is it a credible position (according to a Leaver on here).john_zims said:@runnymede
'The best way to neutralise Project Lie is the EFTA/EEA option, even if only as a first step.'
Exactly, an excellent holding position.
Other than that it's all systems go.
If Leave can't promise anything they could at least tell us what they actually want. Are we going to put a stop to immigration or are we going to sign up to EFFTA/EEA? You can't dither on the question for the next 2 months.
You seem uncomfortable with the concept of power residing in the UK Govt.0 -
https://twitter.com/smashmorePH/status/720647997705580544MarqueeMark said:dr_spyn said:This made me smile.
https://twitter.com/smashmorePH/status/720647997705580544
That relies on the big assumption that anywhere else would have him...
Paul O'Grady aka Lily Savage promised to emigrate if the Tories won at the 2015 GE. Last time I looked he was still here. Lefties are all mouth and no trousers.0 -
Does anyone know what has happened to the Labour moderates? They seem to have disappeared? They don't even seem to appear in the HoC. Is it too late for them?0
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http://www.bbc.com/capital/story/20160413-this-is-where-the-real-profit-in-politics-sits?ocid=twcptl
Just seen link to this on Twitter.0 -
Brilliant.Indigo said:It is a little bizarre that the winning argument for the government is going to amount to them telling everyone that they are too incompetent to run the UK without the help of the EU, and for Labour it is that they are too incapable of getting elected to pass the same environmental, social and industrial laws as are passed by the EU, and for the Lib Dems is going to be, we don't actually need a UK government at all, we should all be run by the EU. Funny old world.
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All you chaps with your fixation on Europe seem to have missed the biggest and most hopeful story of the day - the proposed remuneration package of the CEO of BP has been voted down and included in those rejecting it are big institutional investors.
Huzzah! I say and maybe this is the start of returning sanity to the corporate sector.0 -
Still not completely decided, but as with so much of life, it's definitely a lesser of two (or least of several) evils situation,. The greatest evil fmpov would be an rUK/England voting strongly to leave with Scotland being dragged along with them on a narrow leave vote. The thought of being in the perpetual embrace of the 'Britain once more a buccaneering, trading nation leading the Anglosphere' brigade makes me feel decidedly queasy.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Divvie, the move of powers is from the UK to the EU, but in the opposite direction regarding devolution within the UK. Also, there was a quite recent vote in Scotland.
Regarding the EU, how are you planning to vote?
You can probably guess which way I'm drifting.0 -
-
Not at all I just want a straight answer about what Leave would like to do if hey win. Not a lot to ask really.TCPoliticalBetting said:
They return to our Gov the right to decide these things. We then vote for the Govt or not.OllyT said:TCPoliticalBetting said:
In case you have not noticed, the head of Govt, the PM, is not a LEAVER so nothing can be promised from LEAVE on this aspect until after June 23rd.TOPPING said:
Except it doesn't seem to be on offer. Nor is it a credible position (according to a Leaver on here).john_zims said:@runnymede
'The best way to neutralise Project Lie is the EFTA/EEA option, even if only as a first step.'
Exactly, an excellent holding position.
Other than that it's all systems go.
If Leave can't promise anything they could at least tell us what they actually want. Are we going to put a stop to immigration or are we going to sign up to EFFTA/EEA? You can't dither on the question for the next 2 months.
You seem uncomfortable with the concept of power residing in the UK Govt.0 -
All mouth and trousers.0
-
I feel very uncomforable with power residing the UK Government, headed by Cameron, Mr Betting. He could not get the support of even 25% of the registered voters.TCPoliticalBetting said:
They return to our Gov the right to decide these things. We then vote for the Govt or not.OllyT said:
If Leave can't promise anything they could at least tell us what they actually want. Are we going to put a stop to immigration or are we going to sign up to EFFTA/EEA? You can't dither on the question for the next 2 months.TCPoliticalBetting said:
In case you have not noticed, the head of Govt, the PM, is not a LEAVER so nothing can be promised from LEAVE on this aspect until after June 23rd.TOPPING said:
Except it doesn't seem to be on offer. Nor is it a credible position (according to a Leaver on here). Other than that it's all systems go.john_zims said:@runnymede
'The best way to neutralise Project Lie is the EFTA/EEA option, even if only as a first step.'
Exactly, an excellent holding position.
You seem uncomfortable with the concept of power residing in the UK Govt.0 -
No mention of OGHdr_spyn said:http://www.bbc.com/capital/story/20160413-this-is-where-the-real-profit-in-politics-sits?ocid=twcptl
Just seen link to this on Twitter.
0 -
I never made any promise of pie in the sky. I just explained how democracy and accountability work.MarkSenior said:
Yours is the perfect pie in the sky argument for Leave . Vote leave and EU lead will be magically turned into gold , water will become wine and if somehow this does not materialise we can blame Cameron or the Govt for not delivering .TCPoliticalBetting said:
They return to our Gov the right to decide these things. We then vote for the Govt or not.OllyT said:TCPoliticalBetting said:
In case you have not noticed, the head of Govt, the PM, is not a LEAVER so nothing can be promised from LEAVE on this aspect until after June 23rd.TOPPING said:
Except it doesn't seem to be on offer. Nor is it a credible position (according to a Leaver on here).john_zims said:@runnymede
'The best way to neutralise Project Lie is the EFTA/EEA option, even if only as a first step.'
Exactly, an excellent holding position.
Other than that it's all systems go.
If Leave can't promise anything they could at least tell us what they actually want. Are we going to put a stop to immigration or are we going to sign up to EFFTA/EEA? You can't dither on the question for the next 2 months.
You seem uncomfortable with the concept of power residing in the UK Govt.
0 -
Agree entirely. I see no contradiction either.HurstLlama said:Apropos of nothing much I went for a haircut and to do some light grocery shopping in my nearest town today.
The barbers has been taken over by a new chap and I got the best haircut I have had for years, in fact I have never had such a good haircut in the UK. The last time I had such a treat was in the Oman. A real full works job; hair, eyebrows, ears and moustache (gone is my usual walrus, I now have the sort of clipped moustache that would have got an approving nod from my old RSM). Lots of work with an old fashioned razor and even the flaming ball banged against the ears (never seen that outside the ME). All done in silence and for £7 (plus a £3 tip that he tried to refuse). The barber? One Edrogan Tuyuz, a Turk recently settled in the UK.
After that I went to Lidl, where a charming young lady with a very strong East European accent stopped me buying some bread products that were on the shelf because she had a new batch just coming out of the oven that would be fresher and nicer. I also bought sausages from Germany, cured meats from Italy and, of course, cheese from France. All at very reasonable prices. The efficient young lady at the checkout was from Latvia (I asked).
From there to Waitrose for food for my cat (he loves their salmon flakes and will kill for a fresh roasted chicken). The jolly and helpful chap at the check-out was from South Africa.
Finally, to a bar for a drinkie while I waited for the bus home. Owned by a Pole and the waitress was Greek. Friendly, impeccable service and acceptable booze (no Portuguese wine, though).
All in a smallish town in darkest Sussex, the sort of place where Roger of this parish not long ago famously said on here that foreign voices are not heard without comment.
I am still going to vote to leave the EU, mind, and I see no contradiction between that and my very pleasant experiences today.0 -
taffys said:
Well then the British people can elect a government that will restore those social protections. Or not. It'll be up to us.foxinsoxuk said:
If we are going to pass all those laws and regulations, then surely it makes sense to stay in?Indigo said:It is a little bizarre that the winning argument for the government is going to amount to them telling everyone that they are too incompetent to run the UK without the help of the EU, and for Labour it is that they are too incapable of getting elected to pass the same environmental, social and industrial laws as are passed by the EU, and for the Lib Dems is going to be, we don't actually need a UK government at all, we should all be run by the EU. Funny old world.
Leaveing only makes sense on this issue if the plan is to repeal some or all of the regulations, something that may make a single market an impossibility.
Bearing in mind the strong links between the right wing and the Leave campaign we can be fairly certain there is no intention to maintain the EUs social protections.
You don't think it's dawned on the left yet that the right wingers backing Brexit out want to remove those social protections? That is one of the reasons why voters in all the parties to the left of the Tories (Labour, Lb Dem, Green, SNP, PC) will eventually vote remain by large margins.0 -
So instead power should lie in the EU? Remind me what the turnout for the EU election was?PClipp said:
I feel very uncomforable with power residing the UK Government, headed by Cameron, Mr Betting. He could not get the support of even 25% of the registered voters.TCPoliticalBetting said:
They return to our Gov the right to decide these things. We then vote for the Govt or not.OllyT said:
If Leave can't promise anything they could at least tell us what they actually want. Are we going to put a stop to immigration or are we going to sign up to EFFTA/EEA? You can't dither on the question for the next 2 months.TCPoliticalBetting said:
In case you have not noticed, the head of Govt, the PM, is not a LEAVER so nothing can be promised from LEAVE on this aspect until after June 23rd.TOPPING said:
Except it doesn't seem to be on offer. Nor is it a credible position (according to a Leaver on here). Other than that it's all systems go.john_zims said:@runnymede
'The best way to neutralise Project Lie is the EFTA/EEA option, even if only as a first step.'
Exactly, an excellent holding position.
You seem uncomfortable with the concept of power residing in the UK Govt.0 -
Exactly and when the campaign gets going after the May elections I expect that Labour, Lib Dems, Greens, SNP, PC and the unions will be hammering that message home to their supporters.foxinsoxuk said:
The referendum is a democratic act. A vote for Remain is a vote to keep the social and environmental protections of the EU.taffys said:
But they can elect another government that will restore them in the future. Nothing is cast in stone.foxinsoxuk said:
They can maintain those rights by voting Remain. Leave only makes sense if they want their protections removed.taffys said:
Well then the British people can elect a government that will restore those social protections. Or not. It'll be up to us.foxinsoxuk said:
If we are going to pass all those laws and regulations, then surely it makes sense to stay in?Indigo said:It is a little bizarre that the winning argument for the government is going to amount to them telling everyone that they are too incompetent to run the UK without the help of the EU, and for Labour it is that they are too incapable of getting elected to pass the same environmental, social and industrial laws as are passed by the EU, and for the Lib Dems is going to be, we don't actually need a UK government at all, we should all be run by the EU. Funny old world.
Leaveing only makes sense on this issue if the plan is to repeal some or all of the regulations, something that may make a single market an impossibility.
Bearing in mind the strong links between the right wing and the Leave campaign we can be fairly certain there is no intention to maintain the EUs social protections.
You really aren't very good at understanding this 'democracy' thing, are you?0 -
Vote leave because Mark Senile is duller and denser than lead.MarkSenior said:
Yours is the perfect pie in the sky argument for Leave . Vote leave and EU lead will be magically turned into gold , water will become wine and if somehow this does not materialise we can blame Cameron or the Govt for not delivering .TCPoliticalBetting said:
They return to our Gov the right to decide these things. We then vote for the Govt or not.OllyT said:TCPoliticalBetting said:
In case you have not noticed, the head of Govt, the PM, is not a LEAVER so nothing can be promised from LEAVE on this aspect until after June 23rd.TOPPING said:
Except it doesn't seem to be on offer. Nor is it a credible position (according to a Leaver on here).john_zims said:@runnymede
'The best way to neutralise Project Lie is the EFTA/EEA option, even if only as a first step.'
Exactly, an excellent holding position.
Other than that it's all systems go.
If Leave can't promise anything they could at least tell us what they actually want. Are we going to put a stop to immigration or are we going to sign up to EFFTA/EEA? You can't dither on the question for the next 2 months.
You seem uncomfortable with the concept of power residing in the UK Govt.
No, I can't see it catching on as a slogan.0 -
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/03/26/after-the-latest-blow-up-david-herdson-says-now-is-the-time-to-back-401-kasich/AlastairMeeks said:Can someone explain to me why John Kasich is now trading at 11/1 for the Republican nomination on Betfair? Isn't a zero missing?
My take on it is; the market believes there's only an 85% chance of trump/cruz, meaning 15% chance of someone else. Now Ryan's been pushed out, Kasich sucks up the overround.
Personally, I'd put not-trump/cruz at 10% max, with Kasich making up 40-50% of that.
So ~4%, or 25/1 would be my stab at guessing his true odds right now.
The really crazy situation was a couple of weeks back when you could get cruz @ 3/1 and trump at evens - a 25% chance the GOP skips their first AND second place candidates and awards the nomination to someone else?
I'd bet against that every time.
It'll be trump or cruz.0 -
Interesting in a way.AlastairMeeks said:
With the polls looking somewhere around the 45-42 mark this highlights just how much business has lost contact with ordinary people. Whether that's as a result of the recession or the actions of big business is hard to say, but on those figures business leaders are off at atangent and don't appear to be able to do much to persuade their workers they are right.
Only the FSB is anywhere near the current split reflected in polling.0 -
One of the more ridiculous claims made on here today. The idea that social and environmental protections would disappear because we left the EU is laughable - just like all your other claims.foxinsoxuk said:
The referendum is a democratic act. A vote for Remain is a vote to keep the social and environmental protections of the EU.taffys said:
But they can elect another government that will restore them in the future. Nothing is cast in stone.foxinsoxuk said:
They can maintain those rights by voting Remain. Leave only makes sense if they want their protections removed.taffys said:
Well then the British people can elect a government that will restore those social protections. Or not. It'll be up to us.foxinsoxuk said:
If we are going to pass all those laws and regulations, then surely it makes sense to stay in?Indigo said:It is a little bizarre that the winning argument for the government is going to amount to them telling everyone that they are too incompetent to run the UK without the help of the EU, and for Labour it is that they are too incapable of getting elected to pass the same environmental, social and industrial laws as are passed by the EU, and for the Lib Dems is going to be, we don't actually need a UK government at all, we should all be run by the EU. Funny old world.
Leaveing only makes sense on this issue if the plan is to repeal some or all of the regulations, something that may make a single market an impossibility.
Bearing in mind the strong links between the right wing and the Leave campaign we can be fairly certain there is no intention to maintain the EUs social protections.
You really aren't very good at understanding this 'democracy' thing, are you?0 -
I recognise that is your view and you prefer to rely on those you can never vote for, deciding these things inside the machinations of the EU. Democracy just not your cup of tea.PClipp said:
I feel very uncomforable with power residing the UK Government, headed by Cameron, Mr Betting. He could not get the support of even 25% of the registered voters.TCPoliticalBetting said:
They return to our Gov the right to decide these things. We then vote for the Govt or not.OllyT said:
If Leave can't promise anything they could at least tell us what they actually want. Are we going to put a stop to immigration or are we going to sign up to EFFTA/EEA? You can't dither on the question for the next 2 months.TCPoliticalBetting said:
In case you have not noticed, the head of Govt, the PM, is not a LEAVER so nothing can be promised from LEAVE on this aspect until after June 23rd.TOPPING said:
Except it doesn't seem to be on offer. Nor is it a credible position (according to a Leaver on here). Other than that it's all systems go.john_zims said:@runnymede
'The best way to neutralise Project Lie is the EFTA/EEA option, even if only as a first step.'
Exactly, an excellent holding position.
You seem uncomfortable with the concept of power residing in the UK Govt.
0 -
A bit of interesting news from Lancashire:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-36042951
6/14 posts unfilled and unfillable. It will be coming to a hospital near you in August....0 -
Tory peer (and - lol - start up czar) Michelle Mone stayed put after not getting her desired electoral outcome then left when she did get it.Norm said:
Paul O'Grady aka Lily Savage promised to emigrate if the Tories won at the 2015 GE. Last time I looked he was still here. Lefties are all mouth and no trousers.
All fur coat and no knickers might be more appropriate in her case.0 -
Vote Remain to keep the social and environmental protections!
Okay dude.0 -
Venezuela couldn't pay us enough. They take him, they keep him.MarqueeMark said:
Only to ransom...Hertsmere_Pubgoer said:
Venezuela?MarqueeMark said:dr_spyn said:This made me smile.
https://twitter.com/smashmorePH/status/720647997705580544
That relies on the big assumption that anywhere else would have him...0 -
What would REMAIN like to happen to the EU if they win? The only difference is that LEAVE means the UK voters can influence the UK strongly if they win - but REMAIN still means that the UK voter can't influence the EU if they win.OllyT said:
Not at all I just want a straight answer about what Leave would like to do if hey win. Not a lot to ask really.TCPoliticalBetting said:
They return to our Gov the right to decide these things. We then vote for the Govt or not.OllyT said:TCPoliticalBetting said:
In case you have not noticed, the head of Govt, the PM, is not a LEAVER so nothing can be promised from LEAVE on this aspect until after June 23rd.TOPPING said:
Except it doesn't seem to be on offer. Nor is it a credible position (according to a Leaver on here).john_zims said:@runnymede
'The best way to neutralise Project Lie is the EFTA/EEA option, even if only as a first step.'
Exactly, an excellent holding position.
Other than that it's all systems go.
If Leave can't promise anything they could at least tell us what they actually want. Are we going to put a stop to immigration or are we going to sign up to EFFTA/EEA? You can't dither on the question for the next 2 months.
You seem uncomfortable with the concept of power residing in the UK Govt.0 -
Not all social and environmental protections, just the ones in EU law.Richard_Tyndall said:
One of the more ridiculous claims made on here today. The idea that social and environmental protections would disappear because we left the EU is laughable - just like all your other claims.foxinsoxuk said:
The referendum is a democratic act. A vote for Remain is a vote to keep the social and environmental protections of the EU.taffys said:
But they can elect another government that will restore them in the future. Nothing is cast in stone.foxinsoxuk said:
They can maintain those rights by voting Remain. Leave only makes sense if they want their protections removed.taffys said:
Well then the British people can elect a government that will restore those social protections. Or not. It'll be up to us.foxinsoxuk said:
If we are going to pass all those laws and regulations, then surely it makes sense to stay in?Indigo said:It is a little bizarre that the winning argument for the government is going to amount to them telling everyone that they are too incompetent to run the UK without the help of the EU, and for Labour it is that they are too incapable of getting elected to pass the same environmental, social and industrial laws as are passed by the EU, and for the Lib Dems is going to be, we don't actually need a UK government at all, we should all be run by the EU. Funny old world.
Leaveing only makes sense on this issue if the plan is to repeal some or all of the regulations, something that may make a single market an impossibility.
Bearing in mind the strong links between the right wing and the Leave campaign we can be fairly certain there is no intention to maintain the EUs social protections.
You really aren't very good at understanding this 'democracy' thing, are you?
Not much point in Leaving, then following the EUs decisions anyway. I see business feels the same.0 -
I shall put you down as a convert!geoffw said:Vote Remain to keep the social and environmental protections!
Okay dude.0 -
Why in August? Are all the other doctors off to watch the Olympic Games?foxinsoxuk said:A bit of interesting news from Lancashire:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-36042951
6/14 posts unfilled and unfillable. It will be coming to a hospital near you in August....0 -
An undie manufacturer going commando? worst mistake since Gerald Ratner.Theuniondivvie said:
Tory peer (and - lol - start up czar) Michelle Mone stayed put after not getting her desired electoral outcome then left when she did get it.Norm said:
Paul O'Grady aka Lily Savage promised to emigrate if the Tories won at the 2015 GE. Last time I looked he was still here. Lefties are all mouth and no trousers.
All fur coat and no knickers might be more appropriate in her case.0 -
"How safe or risky do you think it would be for Britain to STAY IN the European Union?"
By the way, red and green is a bad combination for graphs.0 -
why fronts?taffys said:
An undie manufacturer going commando? worst mistake since Gerald Ratner.Theuniondivvie said:
Tory peer (and - lol - start up czar) Michelle Mone stayed put after not getting her desired electoral outcome then left when she did get it.Norm said:
Paul O'Grady aka Lily Savage promised to emigrate if the Tories won at the 2015 GE. Last time I looked he was still here. Lefties are all mouth and no trousers.
All fur coat and no knickers might be more appropriate in her case.0 -
But if we do leave, we could decide to go further than the EU in certain areas.foxinsoxuk said:
Not all social and environmental protections, just the ones in EU law.Richard_Tyndall said:
One of the more ridiculous claims made on here today. The idea that social and environmental protections would disappear because we left the EU is laughable - just like all your other claims.foxinsoxuk said:
The referendum is a democratic act. A vote for Remain is a vote to keep the social and environmental protections of the EU.taffys said:
But they can elect another government that will restore them in the future. Nothing is cast in stone.foxinsoxuk said:
They can maintain those rights by voting Remain. Leave only makes sense if they want their protections removed.taffys said:
Well then the British people can elect a government that will restore those social protections. Or not. It'll be up to us.foxinsoxuk said:
If we are going to pass all those laws and regulations, then surely it makes sense to stay in?Indigo said:It is a little bizarre that the winning argument for the government is going to amount to them telling everyone that they are too incompetent to run the UK without the help of the EU, and for Labour it is that they are too incapable of getting elected to pass the same environmental, social and industrial laws as are passed by the EU, and for the Lib Dems is going to be, we don't actually need a UK government at all, we should all be run by the EU. Funny old world.
Leaveing only makes sense on this issue if the plan is to repeal some or all of the regulations, something that may make a single market an impossibility.
Bearing in mind the strong links between the right wing and the Leave campaign we can be fairly certain there is no intention to maintain the EUs social protections.
You really aren't very good at understanding this 'democracy' thing, are you?
Not much point in Leaving, then following the EUs decisions anyway. I see business feels the same.0 -
You seem quite excited at the prospect of it all.foxinsoxuk said:A bit of interesting news from Lancashire:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-36042951
6/14 posts unfilled and unfillable. It will be coming to a hospital near you in August....0 -
More to the point, how many activists from those parties will be willing to get off their backsides and campaign for Remain? Not many.OllyT said:
Exactly and when the campaign gets going after the May elections I expect that Labour, Lib Dems, Greens, SNP, PC and the unions will be hammering that message home to their supporters.foxinsoxuk said:
The referendum is a democratic act. A vote for Remain is a vote to keep the social and environmental protections of the EU.taffys said:
But they can elect another government that will restore them in the future. Nothing is cast in stone.foxinsoxuk said:
They can maintain those rights by voting Remain. Leave only makes sense if they want their protections removed.taffys said:
Well then the British people can elect a government that will restore those social protections. Or not. It'll be up to us.foxinsoxuk said:
If we are going to pass all those laws and regulations, then surely it makes sense to stay in?Indigo said:It is a little bizarre that the winning argument for the government is going to amount to them telling everyone that they are too incompetent to run the UK without the help of the EU, and for Labour it is that they are too incapable of getting elected to pass the same environmental, social and industrial laws as are passed by the EU, and for the Lib Dems is going to be, we don't actually need a UK government at all, we should all be run by the EU. Funny old world.
Leaveing only makes sense on this issue if the plan is to repeal some or all of the regulations, something that may make a single market an impossibility.
Bearing in mind the strong links between the right wing and the Leave campaign we can be fairly certain there is no intention to maintain the EUs social protections.
You really aren't very good at understanding this 'democracy' thing, are you?
0 -
That's when the new contracts hit.GeoffM said:
Why in August? Are all the other doctors off to watch the Olympic Games?foxinsoxuk said:A bit of interesting news from Lancashire:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-36042951
6/14 posts unfilled and unfillable. It will be coming to a hospital near you in August....0 -
We keep the ones we as a country feel are of value and modify or remove the ones that we don't. It is called democracy. Something I know you have a lot of trouble with as a concept.foxinsoxuk said:
Not all social and environmental protections, just the ones in EU law.Richard_Tyndall said:
One of the more ridiculous claims made on here today. The idea that social and environmental protections would disappear because we left the EU is laughable - just like all your other claims.foxinsoxuk said:
The referendum is a democratic act. A vote for Remain is a vote to keep the social and environmental protections of the EU.taffys said:
But they can elect another government that will restore them in the future. Nothing is cast in stone.foxinsoxuk said:
They can maintain those rights by voting Remain. Leave only makes sense if they want their protections removed.taffys said:
Well then the British people can elect a government that will restore those social protections. Or not. It'll be up to us.foxinsoxuk said:
If we are going to pass all those laws and regulations, then surely it makes sense to stay in?Indigo said:It is a little bizarre that the winning argument for the government is going to amount to them telling everyone that they are too incompetent to run the UK without the help of the EU, and for Labour it is that they are too incapable of getting elected to pass the same environmental, social and industrial laws as are passed by the EU, and for the Lib Dems is going to be, we don't actually need a UK government at all, we should all be run by the EU. Funny old world.
Leaveing only makes sense on this issue if the plan is to repeal some or all of the regulations, something that may make a single market an impossibility.
Bearing in mind the strong links between the right wing and the Leave campaign we can be fairly certain there is no intention to maintain the EUs social protections.
You really aren't very good at understanding this 'democracy' thing, are you?
Not much point in Leaving, then following the EUs decisions anyway. I see business feels the same.0 -
Evening all
Like some others, I'm concerned at the prospect of a Conservative Government, post-LEAVE, tearing up protection for workers but that's both the problem and the opportunity democracy provides.
It provides the opportunity for a future non-Conservative Government to put forward something better, something more relevant and something stronger as law. It would be a huge policy opportunity for non-Conservative parties in Britain after a LEAVE vote.
It's not unreasonable for me or any other voter to ask LEAVE what aspects (if any) of EU legislation they would keep. It seems foolish to assume all EU law is by definition bad law or are there areas where EU law is considered too weak or doesn't go far enough ?
What about taxation - VAT only exists because of the EU. Would LEAVE want to abolish VAT, change the rate (we wouldn't have to harmonise), change those items which are reduced or zero-rated ?0 -
Nate Silver assesses that the GOP race will come down to the detailed results of the California primary :
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/a-state-by-state-roadmap-for-the-rest-of-the-republican-primary/0 -
Ah, that makes more sense than them all being off earning extra cash doping athletes.Alistair said:
That's when the new contracts hit.GeoffM said:
Why in August? Are all the other doctors off to watch the Olympic Games?foxinsoxuk said:A bit of interesting news from Lancashire:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-36042951
6/14 posts unfilled and unfillable. It will be coming to a hospital near you in August....0 -
John Ashmore ✔@smashmorePH
Possible boost for Leave as Ken Livingstone says he “would personally start thinking about emigrating" in the event of #Brexit
5:20 PM - 14 Apr 2016
Which reminds me.... Has anyone one ever seen Malcolmg and Ken in the same room together? 0 -
The lengths that Leavers are going to to avoid answering a simple question (Stop immigration or join EFTA/EEA) is starting to get comical. You will have tied yourself in so many knots by June you won't know which way is up.weejonnie said:
What would REMAIN like to happen to the EU if they win? The only difference is that LEAVE means the UK voters can influence the UK strongly if they win - but REMAIN still means that the UK voter can't influence the EU if they win.OllyT said:
Not at all I just want a straight answer about what Leave would like to do if hey win. Not a lot to ask really.TCPoliticalBetting said:
They return to our Gov the right to decide these things. We then vote for the Govt or not.OllyT said:TCPoliticalBetting said:
In case you have not noticed, the head of Govt, the PM, is not a LEAVER so nothing can be promised from LEAVE on this aspect until after June 23rd.TOPPING said:
Except it doesn't seem to be on offer. Nor is it a credible position (according to a Leaver on here).john_zims said:@runnymede
'The best way to neutralise Project Lie is the EFTA/EEA option, even if only as a first step.'
Exactly, an excellent holding position.
Other than that it's all systems go.
If Leave can't promise anything they could at least tell us what they actually want. Are we going to put a stop to immigration or are we going to sign up to EFFTA/EEA? You can't dither on the question for the next 2 months.
You seem uncomfortable with the concept of power residing in the UK Govt.0 -
Leave have found an attack line which is making me waver.Moses_ said:John Ashmore ✔@smashmorePH
Possible boost for Leave as Ken Livingstone says he “would personally start thinking about emigrating" in the event of #Brexit
5:20 PM - 14 Apr 2016
Which reminds me.... Has anyone one ever seen Malcolmg and Ken in the same room together?0 -
That's rather stating the obvious, and has been the anticipated outcome for a week or so now.JackW said:Nate Silver assesses that the GOP race will come down to the detailed results of the California primary :
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/a-state-by-state-roadmap-for-the-rest-of-the-republican-primary/0 -
It's interesting but no more than that and would best be viewed in the context of BP performance over that last 24 months. You might compare BP to the compensation packages awarded to the senior management of the US majors and the (implicit and explicit) shareholder approval for the latter. The problem that BP faces is if they are not paying bonuses and their competitors are then real talent will walk. You may or may not be indifferent to this but unless we impose a global compensation approach (or perhaps a pan-EU one) then, to quote, sanity will not return.HurstLlama said:All you chaps with your fixation on Europe seem to have missed the biggest and most hopeful story of the day - the proposed remuneration package of the CEO of BP has been voted down and included in those rejecting it are big institutional investors.
Huzzah! I say and maybe this is the start of returning sanity to the corporate sector.0 -
My first preference is leave altogether but if we remain in the EEA that will be fine. Whatever happens, if net immigration continues at the current levels to 2020 then the Tories are ******.OllyT said:
The lengths that Leavers are going to to avoid answering a simple question (Stop immigration or join EFTA/EEA) is starting to get comical. You will have tied yourself in so many knots by June you won't know which way is up.weejonnie said:
What would REMAIN like to happen to the EU if they win? The only difference is that LEAVE means the UK voters can influence the UK strongly if they win - but REMAIN still means that the UK voter can't influence the EU if they win.OllyT said:
Not at all I just want a straight answer about what Leave would like to do if hey win. Not a lot to ask really.TCPoliticalBetting said:
They return to our Gov the right to decide these things. We then vote for the Govt or not.OllyT said:TCPoliticalBetting said:
In case you have not noticed, the head of Govt, the PM, is not a LEAVER so nothing can be promised from LEAVE on this aspect until after June 23rd.TOPPING said:
Except it doesn't seem to be on offer. Nor is it a credible position (according to a Leaver on here).john_zims said:@runnymede
'The best way to neutralise Project Lie is the EFTA/EEA option, even if only as a first step.'
Exactly, an excellent holding position.
Other than that it's all systems go.
If Leave can't promise anything they could at least tell us what they actually want. Are we going to put a stop to immigration or are we going to sign up to EFFTA/EEA? You can't dither on the question for the next 2 months.
You seem uncomfortable with the concept of power residing in the UK Govt.0 -
Sam Wang of Princeton Electoral Consortium has Trump odds on to get to 1237. Nate seems to have him odds against.Tim_B said:
That's rather stating the obvious, and has been the anticipated outcome for a week or so now.JackW said:Nate Silver assesses that the GOP race will come down to the detailed results of the California primary :
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/a-state-by-state-roadmap-for-the-rest-of-the-republican-primary/
Quite an important difference of opinion
0 -
Thanks for the link. V. interesting and detailed.JackW said:Nate Silver assesses that the GOP race will come down to the detailed results of the California primary :
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/a-state-by-state-roadmap-for-the-rest-of-the-republican-primary/0 -
Why is it that these "I will leave the country" threats are only made by arseholes the rest of us would be happy to lose?AlastairMeeks said:
Leave have found an attack line which is making me waver.Moses_ said:John Ashmore ✔@smashmorePH
Possible boost for Leave as Ken Livingstone says he “would personally start thinking about emigrating" in the event of #Brexit
5:20 PM - 14 Apr 2016
Which reminds me.... Has anyone one ever seen Malcolmg and Ken in the same room together?0 -
Wheras you are in denial.watford30 said:
You seem quite excited at the prospect of it all.foxinsoxuk said:A bit of interesting news from Lancashire:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-36042951
6/14 posts unfilled and unfillable. It will be coming to a hospital near you in August....0 -
just bollocks.matt said:
It's interesting but no more than that and would best be viewed in the context of BP performance over that last 24 months. You might compare BP to the compensation packages awarded to the senior management of the US majors and the (implicit and explicit) shareholder approval for the latter. The problem that BP faces is if they are not paying bonuses and their competitors are then real talent will walk. You may or may not be indifferent to this but unless we impose a global compensation approach (or perhaps a pan-EU one) then, to quote, sanity will not return.HurstLlama said:All you chaps with your fixation on Europe seem to have missed the biggest and most hopeful story of the day - the proposed remuneration package of the CEO of BP has been voted down and included in those rejecting it are big institutional investors.
Huzzah! I say and maybe this is the start of returning sanity to the corporate sector.0 -
I think it is unfair to claim that VAT only exists because of the EU. Prior to the UK joining the EU we had luxury taxes on non essentials and I would expect that we would return to a sales tax at a similar level to that we currently have. The main difference in my mind would be that we would have more freedom to choose what we imposed that tax on. So we could take it off things like home energy, sanitary products and brown field development and put it on things like caravans and pasties.stodge said:Evening all
Like some others, I'm concerned at the prospect of a Conservative Government, post-LEAVE, tearing up protection for workers but that's both the problem and the opportunity democracy provides.
It provides the opportunity for a future non-Conservative Government to put forward something better, something more relevant and something stronger as law. It would be a huge policy opportunity for non-Conservative parties in Britain after a LEAVE vote.
It's not unreasonable for me or any other voter to ask LEAVE what aspects (if any) of EU legislation they would keep. It seems foolish to assume all EU law is by definition bad law or are there areas where EU law is considered too weak or doesn't go far enough ?
What about taxation - VAT only exists because of the EU. Would LEAVE want to abolish VAT, change the rate (we wouldn't have to harmonise), change those items which are reduced or zero-rated ?0 -
I think that's absolutely right.Richard_Tyndall said:
I think it is unfair to claim that VAT only exists because of the EU. Prior to the UK joining the EU we had luxury taxes on non essentials and I would expect that we would return to a sales tax at a similar level to that we currently have. The main difference in my mind would be that we would have more freedom to choose what we imposed that tax on. So we could take it off things like home energy, sanitary products and brown field development and put it on things like caravans and pasties.stodge said:Evening all
Like some others, I'm concerned at the prospect of a Conservative Government, post-LEAVE, tearing up protection for workers but that's both the problem and the opportunity democracy provides.
It provides the opportunity for a future non-Conservative Government to put forward something better, something more relevant and something stronger as law. It would be a huge policy opportunity for non-Conservative parties in Britain after a LEAVE vote.
It's not unreasonable for me or any other voter to ask LEAVE what aspects (if any) of EU legislation they would keep. It seems foolish to assume all EU law is by definition bad law or are there areas where EU law is considered too weak or doesn't go far enough ?
What about taxation - VAT only exists because of the EU. Would LEAVE want to abolish VAT, change the rate (we wouldn't have to harmonise), change those items which are reduced or zero-rated ?
Longer-term - and I know this is slightly controversial - I would abolish VAT and income tax and move to consumption tax with a large tax-free element to make it non-regressive. This is something we could do outside the EU. Albeit something that would be politically a complete non-starter.0 -
Come and join us, Alastair!AlastairMeeks said:
Leave have found an attack line which is making me waver.Moses_ said:John Ashmore ✔@smashmorePH
Possible boost for Leave as Ken Livingstone says he “would personally start thinking about emigrating" in the event of #Brexit
5:20 PM - 14 Apr 2016
Which reminds me.... Has anyone one ever seen Malcolmg and Ken in the same room together?
No-one is ever more welcome than a man turned good :-)0 -
News UK News Hospitals
A&E crisis explodes under Jeremy Hunt as waiting times reach worst level since records began
17:19, 14 APR 2016 UPDATED 17:20, 14 APR 2016
BY JANE KIRBY , DAN BLOOM
A&E figures shame Jeremy Hunt
The NHS crisis under Jeremy Hunt is laid bare today after A&E waiting times reached their worst level since records began.
Latest figures show 12.2% of patients waited longer than four hours in February - the highest monthly figure on record. In April 2010 was just 1.7%0
