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Comments
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@AlastairMeeks
'It's remarkable how irresponsible - in the deepest sense of the word - so many Leave campaigners are. Unable or unwilling to face up to the deep contradictions in their ranks, they seek to pass the responsibility for what a Leave vote would mean onto the shoulders of someone who is avowedly in favour of staying in the EU.'
Maybe if you occasionally came down from your Ivory tower,you might realize that many people are struggling to find basic housing, get their kids into local schools,get a GP's appointment when they are actually ill and not have their wages relentlessly forced down due to the never ending uncontrolled supply of cheap labour..
What a post EU agreement looks like is to say the least not high on their priority list.
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Remainers smell of oui.MarqueeMark said:
Brexiteers smell of wee....nigel4england said:
Project Fear isn't working so now it's just insults.tyson said:It is difficult not to ridicule such moronic thinking. If I didn't know better I would assume that the Brexit bunch have been consumed by a brain disease that inhibits all rational thought.
Seriously, why would a farmer want to leave the EU when his livelihood depends on it?
There is no other explanation for the madness of Brexit thinking other than nonsense, stupidity, or the kind of reactionary nationalism that has caused Europe so much harm in the last century.
And this is me being quite kind and reasonable.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Another REMAINER insulting people advocating LEAVE.tyson said:Brexit is about as intellectually rigorous as being a Millwall fan and kicking the shit of a Fulham fan for supporting Fulham.
Brexit is nihilistic nonsense.AlastairMeeks said:It's remarkable how irresponsible - in the deepest sense of the word - so many Leave campaigners are. Unable or unwilling to face up to the deep contradictions in their ranks, they seek to pass the responsibility for what a Leave vote would mean onto the shoulders of someone who is avowedly in favour of staying in the EU.
The nonchalance with which - even for the policy that has been their touchstone for decades - they disavow the hard work of trying to make their incoherent policy work is astonishing.0 -
No, and the reolution of it has been even worse banks are still too big to fail and Cameron put no blood on the carpet to show the financial sector there are consequences.TheScreamingEagles said:
Last time the banking/financial services industry went mammary glands up, it wasn't good news for the UK.Alanbrooke said:
I can get how it's a risk for your business and that you should vote for what's best for you, but it's quite a jump to say that applies to the UK as a whole when there is a large enough body of evdience to say the reverse.TheScreamingEagles said:
I haven't, the co-author is an ardent Leaver. His final conclusion was painful for him.Casino_Royale said:
I'm not playing your loyalty to the UK trolling game.TheScreamingEagles said:
Perhaps my loyalty to the UK is stronger.Casino_Royale said:
No surprise whats - for precisely this reason.TheScreamingEagles said:
I've moved to Remain this evening.Casino_Royale said:
Nope. Remain will win.TheScreamingEagles said:The comments tonight are very reminiscent of The Day The Polls Turned last year
Leave sympathisers
Without them, Leave have no chance.
Cameron's deal might be crap, but Leave are giving no assurances that we will retain what we already have.
So a straw man.
Unfortunately, as wonderful as Richard and Robert are, they won't be able to gift us membership of the EFTA/EEA.
The report says there's no automaticity nor any guarantee that we will get membership nor that we will get favourable terms.
The most damning part of the report said it was very reminiscent of the Scottish Nationalist movement who were convinced they could force the rest of the UK into a currency union.
Your report may well ha Dave's lead.
It's your vote but I'm not going to conceal my disappointment.
The report was well resourced, and took in a lot of impartial evidence.
On the balance of probabilities Brexit is too higher a risk for the company, the sector and the UK as a whole.
It simply highlights the fact that we need to diversify the UK economic base, something imo we will never do whilst in the EU, it sucks the lifeblood out of us.0 -
It's not that it isn't a credible position for people to take, its that it isn't a credible position for VTLC to take, because the great bulk of their current support will be assuming Leave means LEAVE. We have a group of very intelligent, successful, most internationalist and libertarian businessmen and women on here who would do very well out of an EEA solution, but it is not going to be a common view amongst non political geeks, most of whom will have forgotten the EEA ever existed and will be supporting VLTC on the grounds of sovereignty or immigration. Risking losing all this later group, and the kippers, to pick up a handful of libertarian businessmen would be politically foolish.TOPPING said:It is precisely the position of many on here, much perhaps to their irritation (they are certainly irritated by those who point it out).
Yet it is by your account "not a credible position to take."
A shame that a perfectly coherent option, albeit with drawbacks (similarly to the other options including staying in) is deemed not credible.0 -
POTDPolruan said:
Remainers smell of oui.MarqueeMark said:
Brexiteers smell of wee....nigel4england said:
Project Fear isn't working so now it's just insults.tyson said:It is difficult not to ridicule such moronic thinking. If I didn't know better I would assume that the Brexit bunch have been consumed by a brain disease that inhibits all rational thought.
Seriously, why would a farmer want to leave the EU when his livelihood depends on it?
There is no other explanation for the madness of Brexit thinking other than nonsense, stupidity, or the kind of reactionary nationalism that has caused Europe so much harm in the last century.
And this is me being quite kind and reasonable.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Another REMAINER insulting people advocating LEAVE.tyson said:Brexit is about as intellectually rigorous as being a Millwall fan and kicking the shit of a Fulham fan for supporting Fulham.
Brexit is nihilistic nonsense.AlastairMeeks said:It's remarkable how irresponsible - in the deepest sense of the word - so many Leave campaigners are. Unable or unwilling to face up to the deep contradictions in their ranks, they seek to pass the responsibility for what a Leave vote would mean onto the shoulders of someone who is avowedly in favour of staying in the EU.
The nonchalance with which - even for the policy that has been their touchstone for decades - they disavow the hard work of trying to make their incoherent policy work is astonishing.0 -
As the Economist once observed, the CAP is seen by the French as the crowning glory of the EU, by the British as a protectionist monstrosity fit only for destruction......Alistair said:
I'm a firm Remainer but CAP and EU Farm subsidies are a terrible, terrible reason to vote Remain.tyson said:
I just don't get the nihilism of Brexit. There was an interview with some farmers, farmers who rely on EU subsidies, and they supported Brexit.0 -
Another REMAINER insulting people advocating LEAVE?Stark_Dawning said:Let's face it, the EFTA/EEA lark hardly enters the imagination of most Leavers. They just want a return to a Silver Jubilee world where we all where union-jack bowlers and trade in shillings. What annoys me is that once they've wreaked their mayhem, they won't be around to sort out the consequences, preferring instead to blame their ills on the World Government that resides beyond the North Pole.
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a) there was plenty of blood on the carpetAlanbrooke said:
No, and the reolution of it has been even worse banks are still too big to fail and Cameron put no blood on the carpet to show the financial sector there are consequences.TheScreamingEagles said:
Last time the banking/financial services industry went mammary glands up, it wasn't good news for the UK.Alanbrooke said:
I can get how it's a risk for your business and that you should vote for what's best for you, but it's quite a jump to say that applies to the UK as a whole when there is a large enough body of evdience to say the reverse.TheScreamingEagles said:
I haven't, the co-author is an ardent Leaver. His final conclusion was painful for him.Casino_Royale said:
I'm not playing your loyalty to the UK trolling game.TheScreamingEagles said:
Perhaps my loyalty to the UK is stronger.Casino_Royale said:
No surprise whats - for precisely this reason.TheScreamingEagles said:
I've moved to Remain this evening.Casino_Royale said:
Nope. Remain will win.TheScreamingEagles said:The comments tonight are very reminiscent of The Day The Polls Turned last year
Leave sympathisers
Without them, Leave have no chance.
Cameron's deal might be crap, but Leave are giving no assurances that we will retain what we already have.
So a straw man.
Unfortunately, as wonderful as Richard and Robert are, they won't be able to gift us membership of the EFTA/EEA.
The report says there's no automaticity nor any guarantee that we will get membership nor that we will get favourable terms.
The most damning part of the report said it was very reminiscent of the Scottish Nationalist movement who were convinced they could force the rest of the UK into a currency union.
Your report may well ha Dave's lead.
It's your vote but I'm not going to conceal my disappointment.
The report was well resourced, and took in a lot of impartial evidence.
On the balance of probabilities Brexit is too higher a risk for the company, the sector and the UK as a whole.
It simply highlights the fact that we need to diversify the UK economic base, something imo we will never do whilst in the EU, it sucks the lifeblood out of us.
b) ironic as we are eschewing (rightly IMO) the two mechanisms (SSM and SRM) that would help to lessen the likelihood of another banking crisis and make those participants, ie the banks, pay more should there be one.0 -
Plato_Says said:
We've 70 days to go of this. Urgh.
Look on the bright side - it could have lasted as long as SINDYRef - that went on for years......and there's no turnips!0 -
It needs to be, if you are explaining you are losing.OldKingCole said:
Don’t you mean a SIMPLISTIC message?Indigo said:
Nonsense.Stark_Dawning said:
Pulling up the drawbridge is Cloud Cuckoo Land stuff. There will have to be some sort of associate-membership arrangement with the same immigration obligations that we have now. But you can't blame Leave for obfuscating on this. Admitting to it would kill Leave stone dead.OldKingCole said:
Given that immigration/control of borders is (alleged to be, at any rate) one of the factors driving Leave voters, it is indeed pertinent to ask what campaign leaders envisage will happen afterwards.TOPPING said:
Yes absolutely. Hence my point that I don't get the EEA solution as favoured by several on here. One of the Anti-EU Internet Heroes on here the other night even pointed me to a website where a majority of people wanted EEA/EFTA.runnymede said:
'Well, you either take the view that yes, OUT means OUT and the rest is details, or you might take the view that it is beholden upon Leave to explain just what OUT means.
I am probably 35:65 on the issue.'
I think it's really simple.
Without a LEAVE vote, there is no chance at all of stopping EU immigration. With a LEAVE vote, there is a chance but it is not guaranteed. Ergo if you want to stop EU immigration you vote LEAVE.
I think it is not unreasonable to ask for clarity.
AIUI staying in the EEA or whatever means the border deal we have now.
And we’re at a point in the economic cycle where UK offers attractions for economic migrants, however temporary. Will that always be the caser. I can clearly recall when the reverse was true.
Leave will be playing for complete leave of the EU and bilateral trade agreements, if they go for EEA they will lose half their support. EEA might make sense to some better informed people, but politically it's a dead duck. You can't campaign on "we need to leave the EU, but join the almost-EU", its not a credible position to take. Vote Leave's message will be there is no status quo, the EU is going somewhere and probably not where we want to go, we need to be in control of our own destiny. It's a simple message and on the evidence easy to sell.
Most of the public are not going to give this more than a few minutes thought, anything deep is going to pass them by.
"Labour isn't working"
Simplistic ? yes. Effective ? hell yes!0 -
Miss Vance, but lots of porkies
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MonikerDiCanio said:
Growing hysteria from the Remain camp on PB this morning.
They've just had Corbyn speak for REMAIN - can you blame them?0 -
You sound so much more reasonable when you are running around spouting idiotic abuse.. or is it rattled ? I have never been able to tell the difference.Stark_Dawning said:Let's face it, the EFTA/EEA lark hardly enters the imagination of most Leavers. They just want a return to a Silver Jubilee world where we all where union-jack bowlers and trade in shillings. What annoys me is that once they've wreaked their mayhem, they won't be around to sort out the consequences, preferring instead to blame their ills on the World Government that resides beyond the North Pole.
Leave is currently supported by half the voters, so nice of you to dismiss their views so glibly.
Ah, and here is Mr Tyson slagging off half the population as well. You Remainers are such nice people, I don't recall anyone for Leave abusing half the voting population in such terms.tyson said:It is difficult not to ridicule such moronic thinking. If I didn't know better I would assume that the Brexit bunch have been consumed by a brain disease that inhibits all rational thought.
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No shortage of those.......Morris_Dancer said:Miss Vance, but lots of porkies
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Has Jezza really been arguing Leave equals loads of dodgy individuals and companies will make a bee line for the UK?0
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@TSE
No true ardent Leaver would reach such a conclusion - just look at Michael Gove.
We know the worst case scenario of Brexit with no deal - WTO rules. OpenEurope estimates a 2-3% fall in GDP, which is less than we grow in a single year. Not ideal but certainly not catastrophic and a deal will be there to be made.
The rest is scaremongering.0 -
TOPPING said:
We all missed it then.Alanbrooke said:
a) there was plenty of blood on the carpetTheScreamingEagles said:
No, and the reolution of it has been even worse banks are still too big to fail and Cameron put no blood on the carpet to show the financial sector there are consequences.Alanbrooke said:
Last time the banking/financial services industry went mammary glands up, it wasn't good news for the UK.TheScreamingEagles said:
I can get how it's a risk for your business and that you should vote for what's best for you, but it's quite a jump to say that applies to the UK as a whole when there is a large enough body of evdience to say the reverse.Casino_Royale said:
I'm not plaial evidence.TheScreamingEagles said:
Perhaps my loyalty to the UK is stronger.Casino_Royale said:
No surprise whats - for precisely this reason.TheScreamingEagles said:
I've moved to Remain this evening.Casino_Royale said:
Nope. Remain will win.TheScreamingEagles said:The comments tonight are very reminiscent of The Day The Polls Turned last year
Leave sympathisers
Without them, Leave have no chance.
Cameron's deal might be crap, but Leave are giving no assurances that we will retain what we already have.
So a straw man.
Unfortunately, as wonderful as Richard and Robert are, they won't be able to gift us membership of the EFTA/EEA.
The report says there's no automaticity nor any guarantee that we will get membership nor that we will get favourable terms.
The most damning part of the report said it was very reminiscent of the Scottish Nationalist movement who were convinced they could force the rest of the UK into a currency union.
On the balance of probabilities Brexit is too higher a risk for the company, the sector and the UK as a whole.
It simply highlights the fact that we need to diversify the UK economic base, something imo we will never do whilst in the EU, it sucks the lifeblood out of us.
b) ironic as we are eschewing (rightly IMO) the two mechanisms (SSM and SRM) that would help to lessen the likelihood of another banking crisis and make those participants, ie the banks, pay more should there be one.
Executives rewarded for failure, no-one senior went to jail, no banks have been broken up, we continue to bail out RBS and taxpayers will never see their money back.
Blood on the carpet ? Pah.0 -
What the hell's wrong with cheap labour? Why should I, or anyone else, have endure abyssal service just because it's home grown? You're probably not old enough to remember, but the British plumber was a staple of 1970s comedy: turned up weeks late, charged the earth, always did a crap job. If Leave is just a mandate for cowboys then you can stick it.john_zims said:@AlastairMeeks
'It's remarkable how irresponsible - in the deepest sense of the word - so many Leave campaigners are. Unable or unwilling to face up to the deep contradictions in their ranks, they seek to pass the responsibility for what a Leave vote would mean onto the shoulders of someone who is avowedly in favour of staying in the EU.'
Maybe if you occasionally came down from your Ivory tower,you might realize that many people are struggling to find basic housing, get their kids into local schools,get a GP's appointment when they are actually ill and not have their wages relentlessly forced down due to the never ending uncontrolled supply of cheap labour..
What a post EU agreement looks like is to say the least not high on their priority list.0 -
Do you have a link to that Open Europe estimate?Casino_Royale said:@TSE
No true ardent Leaver would reach such a conclusion - just look at Michael Gove.
We know the worst case scenario of Brexit with no deal - WTO rules. OpenEurope estimates a 2-3% fall in GDP, which is less than we grow in a single year. Not ideal but certainly not catastrophic and a deal will be there to be made.
The rest is scaremongering.0 -
Won't worry Jezza.TheScreamingEagles said:Bad news for we savers
https://twitter.com/EdConwaySky/status/7205494847830794240 -
Maybe farmers don't believe Remain's ridiculous scare stories. It may be hard to believe but we did have a farming industry before we joined the EU. If the government is making such efforts to save the steel industry then of course they are going to make sure we have a viable farming sector in the future. Some small farmers may actually be better off as EU subsidies mainly seem to benefit the large agribusinesses.tyson said:
Seriously, why would a farmer want to leave the EU when his livelihood depends on it?
Even if some farmers are worse off it is worth remembering that people don't just vote on economics alone. Some people voted Labour last time around despite the fact they would be hit by the Mansion tax.0 -
And they have seriously damaged the nation's health. By subsidising output and guaranteeing a price for cash crops, they have all but destroyed mixed farming, and therefore given us the explosion of nitrogen fertilisers, exhausted mineral free soils, low nutrition vegetables and grains, and poor quality milk. They don't do this any more, but in the meantime they've effectively malnourished the national diet and made your '5 a day' all but worthless.Alistair said:
I'm a firm Remainer but CAP and EU Farm subsidies are a terrible, terrible reason to vote Remain.tyson said:
I just don't get the nihilism of Brexit. There was an interview with some farmers, farmers who rely on EU subsidies, and they supported Brexit.
Socialists - f**king the world up and not apologising since 1848.0 -
Crossrail did a Brexit analysis and report a few weeks ago which concluded.. (drumroll...)Alanbrooke said:
I can get how it's a risk for your business and that you should vote for what's best for you, but it's quite a jump to say that applies to the UK as a whole when there is a large enough body of evdience to say the reverse.TheScreamingEagles said:
I haven't, the co-author is an ardent Leaver. His final conclusion was painful for him.Casino_Royale said:
I'm not playing your loyalty to the UK trolling game.TheScreamingEagles said:
Perhaps my loyalty to the UK is stronger.Casino_Royale said:
No surprise whats - for precisely this reason.TheScreamingEagles said:
I've moved to Remain this evening.Casino_Royale said:
Nope. Remain will win.TheScreamingEagles said:The comments tonight are very reminiscent of The Day The Polls Turned last year
Leave sympathisers including AndyJS, you(?), SeanT, AnneJGP, Philip Thompson, Stodge and Cyclefree *still* aren't 100% sure they'll vote Leave, and this is before the campaign has even begun.
Those who aren't sure abstain, or default to the status quo, on the day.
Without them, Leave have no chance.
Our work produced our final report on what Brexit means for ourselves and the businesses we deal with.
Without access to the financial passport and the single market, there would be a cascade of damage to ourselves and the UK economy.
One of the authors of the report was an ardent leaver.
Cameron's deal might be crap, but Leave are giving no assurances that we will retain what we already have.
So a straw man.
Unfortunately, as wonderful as Richard and Robert are, they won't be able to gift us membership of the EFTA/EEA.
The
Your report may well ha Dave's lead.
It's your vote but I'm not going to conceal my disappointment.
The report was well resourced, and took in a lot of impartial evidence.
On the balance of probabilities Brexit is too higher a risk for the company, the sector and the UK as a whole.
No material impact.
And we follow all sorts of EU interoperability and procurement rules, and aren't fully due to be open until the end of 2019 right slap bang in the middle of the 'transition' period.0 -
Voila: http://openeurope.org.uk/intelligence/britain-and-the-eu/what-if-there-were-a-brexit/TheScreamingEagles said:
Do you have a link to that Open Europe estimate?Casino_Royale said:@TSE
No true ardent Leaver would reach such a conclusion - just look at Michael Gove.
We know the worst case scenario of Brexit with no deal - WTO rules. OpenEurope estimates a 2-3% fall in GDP, which is less than we grow in a single year. Not ideal but certainly not catastrophic and a deal will be there to be made.
The rest is scaremongering.0 -
So - Brexit to make house prices more accessible to millions?AlastairMeeks said:Project Fear intensifies:
@JonathanEley · 23m23 minutes ago
Now it's getting really serious. Brexit could drag down house prices, says Moody’s: http://on.ft.com/1Q6s2A70 -
No wonder it was so incredibly divisive for Scotland. It's tribalism writ large.CarlottaVance said:Plato_Says said:
We've 70 days to go of this. Urgh.
Look on the bright side - it could have lasted as long as SINDYRef - that went on for years......and there's no turnips!0 -
The US at least allowed Lehmans to be sacrificedAlanbrooke said:
No, and the reolution of it has been even worse banks are still too big to fail and Cameron put no blood on the carpet to show the financial sector there are consequences.TheScreamingEagles said:
Last time the banking/financial services industry went mammary glands up, it wasn't good news for the UK.Alanbrooke said:
I can get how it's a risk for your business and that you should vote for what's best for you, but it's quite a jump to say that applies to the UK as a whole when there is a large enough body of evdience to say the reverse.TheScreamingEagles said:
I haven't, the co-author is an ardent Leaver. His final conclusion was painful for him.Casino_Royale said:
I'm not playing your loyalty to the UK trolling game.TheScreamingEagles said:
Perhaps my loyalty to the UK is stronger.Casino_Royale said:
No surprise whats - for precisely this reason.TheScreamingEagles said:
I've moved to Remain this evening.Casino_Royale said:
Nope. Remain will win.TheScreamingEagles said:The comments tonight are very reminiscent of The Day The Polls Turned last year
Leave sympathisers
Without them, Leave have no chance.
Cameron's deal might be crap, but Leave are giving no assurances that we will retain what we already have.
So a straw man.
Unfortunately, as wonderful as Richard and Robert are, they won't be able to gift us membership of the EFTA/EEA.
The report says there's no automaticity nor any guarantee that we will get membership nor that we will get favourable terms.
The most damning part of the report said it was very reminiscent of the Scottish Nationalist movement who were convinced they could force the rest of the UK into a currency union.
Your report may well ha Dave's lead.
It's your vote but I'm not going to conceal my disappointment.
The report was well resourced, and took in a lot of impartial evidence.
On the balance of probabilities Brexit is too higher a risk for the company, the sector and the UK as a whole.
It simply highlights the fact that we need to diversify the UK economic base, something imo we will never do whilst in the EU, it sucks the lifeblood out of us.0 -
Hmm.. My mother's carers have just told me they have had a pay cut. There used to be several levels of carers but now there is a single level - at the minimum wage - from £7.72 now £7.20. One of them has just set up married life at 25 in a single room of a shared house.
Last year the company set up a company pension (required now). They offered a £100 company contribution. I don't think anybody signed up.
So this is the EU for most people now, poor wages, no future career.0 -
How fascinating. Thanx for the tipMorris_Dancer said:Mr. Mark, Japanese stuff is overrated, according to the excellent Lindy Beige, who rates both Celtic and Viking swords more highly.
[If you're into history, in particular (his Youtube channel has other stuff), it's well worth giving him a look].0 -
Thank you.Casino_Royale said:
Voila: http://openeurope.org.uk/intelligence/britain-and-the-eu/what-if-there-were-a-brexit/TheScreamingEagles said:
Do you have a link to that Open Europe estimate?Casino_Royale said:@TSE
No true ardent Leaver would reach such a conclusion - just look at Michael Gove.
We know the worst case scenario of Brexit with no deal - WTO rules. OpenEurope estimates a 2-3% fall in GDP, which is less than we grow in a single year. Not ideal but certainly not catastrophic and a deal will be there to be made.
The rest is scaremongering.0 -
Corbyn preferred to Osborne as PM by 34% to 21%. Cameron and Boris lead Jezza
http://order-order.com/2016/04/14/corbyn-preferred-to-osborne-as-pm/0 -
First big laugh out loud this morning
Polruan said:
Remainers smell of oui.MarqueeMark said:
Brexiteers smell of wee....nigel4england said:
Project Fear isn't working so now it's just insults.tyson said:It is difficult not to ridicule such moronic thinking. If I didn't know better I would assume that the Brexit bunch have been consumed by a brain disease that inhibits all rational thought.
Seriously, why would a farmer want to leave the EU when his livelihood depends on it?
There is no other explanation for the madness of Brexit thinking other than nonsense, stupidity, or the kind of reactionary nationalism that has caused Europe so much harm in the last century.
And this is me being quite kind and reasonable.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Another REMAINER insulting people advocating LEAVE.tyson said:Brexit is about as intellectually rigorous as being a Millwall fan and kicking the shit of a Fulham fan for supporting Fulham.
Brexit is nihilistic nonsense.AlastairMeeks said:It's remarkable how irresponsible - in the deepest sense of the word - so many Leave campaigners are. Unable or unwilling to face up to the deep contradictions in their ranks, they seek to pass the responsibility for what a Leave vote would mean onto the shoulders of someone who is avowedly in favour of staying in the EU.
The nonchalance with which - even for the policy that has been their touchstone for decades - they disavow the hard work of trying to make their incoherent policy work is astonishing.0 -
Very good....Polruan said:
Remainers smell of oui.MarqueeMark said:
Brexiteers smell of wee....nigel4england said:
Project Fear isn't working so now it's just insults.tyson said:It is difficult not to ridicule such moronic thinking. If I didn't know better I would assume that the Brexit bunch have been consumed by a brain disease that inhibits all rational thought.
Seriously, why would a farmer want to leave the EU when his livelihood depends on it?
There is no other explanation for the madness of Brexit thinking other than nonsense, stupidity, or the kind of reactionary nationalism that has caused Europe so much harm in the last century.
And this is me being quite kind and reasonable.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Another REMAINER insulting people advocating LEAVE.tyson said:Brexit is about as intellectually rigorous as being a Millwall fan and kicking the shit of a Fulham fan for supporting Fulham.
Brexit is nihilistic nonsense.AlastairMeeks said:It's remarkable how irresponsible - in the deepest sense of the word - so many Leave campaigners are. Unable or unwilling to face up to the deep contradictions in their ranks, they seek to pass the responsibility for what a Leave vote would mean onto the shoulders of someone who is avowedly in favour of staying in the EU.
The nonchalance with which - even for the policy that has been their touchstone for decades - they disavow the hard work of trying to make their incoherent policy work is astonishing.0 -
Cameron, Paddy Ashdown and Neil Kinnock man a 'Vote Remain' phonebank together
https://twitter.com/montie/status/7205506045154877440 -
Well, well: more evidence of Sadiq Khan taking on Islamic extremists.... or perhaps not.
http://hurryupharry.org/2016/04/13/sadiq-khan-on-yusuf-al-qaradawi/0 -
Could the wage change be down to Osborne's new "living wage" i.e. in order to up the pay of some, they have reduced the pay of others and thus have a single pay bracket.PAW said:Hmm.. My mother's carers have just told me they have had a pay cut. There used to be several levels of carers but now there is a single level - at the minimum wage - from £7.72 now £7.20. One of them has just set up married life at 25 in a single room of a shared house.
Last year the company set up a company pension (required now). They offered a £100 company contribution. I don't think anybody signed up.
So this is the EU for most people now, poor wages, no future career.
There was a report in the Guardian a few days ago where they were reporting on what companies where doing and many were cutting benefits such as free lunches.0 -
It's only that simple if immigration is the prevailing concern. It really isn't for me, it's more the abstract sovereignty issue, but I recognise the former is more compelling and real for most people.runnymede said:
'Well, you either take the view that yes, OUT means OUT and the rest is details, or you might take the view that it is beholden upon Leave to explain just what OUT means.
I am probably 35:65 on the issue.'
I think it's really simple.
Without a LEAVE vote, there is no chance at all of stopping EU immigration. With a LEAVE vote, there is a chance but it is not guaranteed. Ergo if you want to stop EU immigration you vote LEAVE.0 -
The same assertion is made about 5 times in about 5 different places Charles. I suspect that Gove has had a hand in this. It is a bit too similar to the nonsense (from a legalistic point of view) about having a British bill of rights instead of the ECHR.Charles said:
I think you are over-reading it, perhaps because of your background as a lawyer.DavidL said:
Quite so. I am in that camp. The bit that worries me in the Vote Leave pdf http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/our_casercs1000 said:Indigo said:Stark_Dawning said:
.OldKingCole said:
setting out their position is this:
"Second, all European countries, in and out of the euro, should be able to trade freely and cooperate in a friendly way. This does not require the supremacy of European law ."
With respect to them that is nonsense. How do we have free trade without a regulator that can impose its decisions on the parties? I remember the nonsense when Japan claimed that skis could not be imported because they had a different kind of snow. If Germany decides they need a different kind of bank or Italy a different kind of insurance we need to be able to stop them or there is no free trade at all.
That requires the supremacy of EU law, at least in the area of the single market. Worse alternatives are available (such as the NAFTA tribunals you have referred to) but some form of regulation which binds the hands of the UK government is an essential component of any meaningful trade deal. I hesitate to use the word but it is dishonest to pretend otherwise.
Clearly in a free trade area you have a system of conflict resolution.
But here they are equally clearly referring to to EU law in general (as in the ECJ) - although in practice I suspect that many of the judgements voters are concerned about are ECHR not ECJ0 -
Chorus of squeals from Remains because Leave won't charge into the obvious Remain beartrap of dictating Government policy for the next 20 years.AlastairMeeks said:
Zero official status. But Leave campaigners such as yourself want to wash your hands of sorting out the sets of problems that you are keen to create. By explaining now what Leave wants Leave to look like would give a strong policy steer to the government after 23 June.ThreeQuidder said:
The problem you have with this line of argument is that you fail to admit that the leave campaign have precisely zero official status with the government after June 23rd.AlastairMeeks said:It's remarkable how irresponsible - in the deepest sense of the word - so many Leave campaigners are. Unable or unwilling to face up to the deep contradictions in their ranks, they seek to pass the responsibility for what a Leave vote would mean onto the shoulders of someone who is avowedly in favour of staying in the EU.
The nonchalance with which - even for the policy that has been their touchstone for decades - they disavow the hard work of trying to make their incoherent policy work is astonishing.
"Not my problem guv" is a contemptible attitude.
You'd have to have a heart of stone etc.0 -
Morris_Dancer said:
Mr. Mark, Japanese stuff is overrated, according to the excellent Lindy Beige, who rates both Celtic and Viking swords more highly.
[If you're into history, in particular (his Youtube channel has other stuff), it's well worth giving him a look].
You expect me to take seriously someone called Beige? I don't recall him being a contender for Spectrum's top agent in the days of Captain Scarlet....0 -
You fool, that's supposed to be a secret goal!Sean_F said:
No, we want to establish a far-right dictatorship.Stark_Dawning said:Let's face it, the EFTA/EEA lark hardly enters the imagination of most Leavers. They just want a return to a Silver Jubilee world where we all where union-jack bowlers and trade in shillings. What annoys me is that once they've wreaked their mayhem, they won't be around to sort out the consequences, preferring instead to blame their ills on the World Government that resides beyond the North Pole.
0 -
I don't know...some people are into Sadomasochism...this appears to be one of those "extremists" ones :-)Theuniondivvie said:0 -
Mr. Mark, if you're judging people based on their Spectrum credentials, that's madness.
Although, if you are, you should check out some books by Thaddeus 'Colonel' White, including The Adventures of Sir Edric: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Adventures-Edric-Hero-Hornska-Book-ebook/dp/B01DOSP9ZK/0 -
Reform of CAP would probably be one of the biggest boosts to third world prosperity and political stability that Europe could do.CarlottaVance said:
As the Economist once observed, the CAP is seen by the French as the crowning glory of the EU, by the British as a protectionist monstrosity fit only for destruction......Alistair said:
I'm a firm Remainer but CAP and EU Farm subsidies are a terrible, terrible reason to vote Remain.tyson said:
I just don't get the nihilism of Brexit. There was an interview with some farmers, farmers who rely on EU subsidies, and they supported Brexit.0 -
It's the future. Nobody can guarantee anything. Remain can't guarantee we won't be forced into the Euro and Schengen.TheScreamingEagles said:
But can you guarantee they'll give us terms comparable to what we have now?Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Eagles, the currency comparison is wrong.
The Yes campaign wanted it, the rest of the UK did not.
Post UK exit, both the UK and the EU will want a trading relationship. You can argue about how that might work precisely, but the EU is not going to try and stop all trade between it and the UK.0 -
Moreover, it's unfair to treat "Leave" as one homogeneous bloc when they contain people from a spectrum of political opinions. There are good left-wing reasons to vote Leave. There are good right-wing reasons to vote Leave. There are good liberal reasons to vote Leave.Indigo said:
Leave didn't create the problem. The government did, they asked the question. You as a lawyer, of all people should know that it's foolish to ask a question if you don't want to know the answer. A government that asks a question of the population on the future of the country, and isn't prepared and planned for any eventuality is negligent.
In addition, about three months ago Cameron was strutting around the TV studios telling us that if he didn't get a slightly larger bit of fluff than the one currently on offer he was perfectly prepared to leave the EU, and was sure we would be fine going it alone, and yet we are supposed to believe him when a couple of months later when he says leaving would be a complete disaster and we would be badly damaged if we went alone, and with a straight face as well.
Of course, there are good left and right and liberal wing reasons to vote to remain, too. But it seems quite unreasonable to me to expect an entirely unlikely coalition, who have coalesced around this issue based on quite diverse reasoning, to decide on a concrete programme (which, of course, they have no means of implementing).
Remain has a "default advantage" in this sense, it just means "business as usual" so even Corbyn and Cameron and Clegg can agree on it. Though in the long run, do you think that they should be condemned for not putting together a coherent vision for Britain's future in Europe? This is something that Cyclefree and others here have been asking for. What's the endgame - Britain to join the federal "Inner Core"? Adopt the euro but in other aspects remain on the periphery? Fight to make the EU more of a trading club than a political union? A more liberal Europe? A more social Europe? The charge that we are sleepwalking into We Know What What has some validity. But I don't expect that Corbyn and Cameron and the more europhile Lib Dems to have a common vision for EU2030.0 -
No such thing as a free lunch!FrancisUrquhart said:
Could the wage change be down to Osborne's new "living wage" i.e. in order to up the pay of some, they have reduced the pay of others and thus have a single pay bracket.PAW said:Hmm.. My mother's carers have just told me they have had a pay cut. There used to be several levels of carers but now there is a single level - at the minimum wage - from £7.72 now £7.20. One of them has just set up married life at 25 in a single room of a shared house.
Last year the company set up a company pension (required now). They offered a £100 company contribution. I don't think anybody signed up.
So this is the EU for most people now, poor wages, no future career.
There was a report in the Guardian a few days ago where they were reporting on what companies where doing and many were cutting benefits such as free lunches.0 -
Masterful.Polruan said:
Remainers smell of oui.MarqueeMark said:
Brexiteers smell of wee....nigel4england said:
Project Fear isn't working so now it's just insults.tyson said:It is difficult not to ridicule such moronic thinking. If I didn't know better I would assume that the Brexit bunch have been consumed by a brain disease that inhibits all rational thought.
Seriously, why would a farmer want to leave the EU when his livelihood depends on it?
There is no other explanation for the madness of Brexit thinking other than nonsense, stupidity, or the kind of reactionary nationalism that has caused Europe so much harm in the last century.
And this is me being quite kind and reasonable.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Another REMAINER insulting people advocating LEAVE.tyson said:Brexit is about as intellectually rigorous as being a Millwall fan and kicking the shit of a Fulham fan for supporting Fulham.
Brexit is nihilistic nonsense.AlastairMeeks said:It's remarkable how irresponsible - in the deepest sense of the word - so many Leave campaigners are. Unable or unwilling to face up to the deep contradictions in their ranks, they seek to pass the responsibility for what a Leave vote would mean onto the shoulders of someone who is avowedly in favour of staying in the EU.
The nonchalance with which - even for the policy that has been their touchstone for decades - they disavow the hard work of trying to make their incoherent policy work is astonishing.0 -
JOURNALIST Julia Hartley-Brewer has revealed that she once threatened to punch a Tory MP — now a “very senior” minister — who groped her knee three times at a dinner.
The talkRADIO host told Sky News: “The third time, I said, ‘Either you don’t put your hand on my knee again or I’m going to punch you in the face.’ He seemed to understand.”
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/7074143/Tory-MP-who-called-top-journo-totty-is-unmasked-as-Bonking-Bob-Stewart.html0 -
At least with Paddy, it would be over quickly!Theuniondivvie said:
"Sir Paddy Ashdown's fame stems as much from a peccadillo and reports that he lasted nine-and-a-half seconds in the sack as from leading the Liberal Democrats for 11 years."
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2001/mar/19/profiles.parliament0 -
@Stark_Dawning
'What the hell's wrong with cheap labour? Why should I, or anyone else, have endure abyssal service just because it's home grown? You're probably not old enough to remember, but the British plumber was a staple of 1970s comedy: turned up weeks late, charged the earth, always did a crap job. If Leave is just a mandate for cowboys then you can stick it.'
Nothing wrong with cheap labour as long as it's not your own wages being cut.
0 -
Indeed. Which is why it won't happen.Alistair said:
Reform of CAP would probably be one of the biggest boosts to third world prosperity and political stability that Europe could do.CarlottaVance said:
As the Economist once observed, the CAP is seen by the French as the crowning glory of the EU, by the British as a protectionist monstrosity fit only for destruction......Alistair said:
I'm a firm Remainer but CAP and EU Farm subsidies are a terrible, terrible reason to vote Remain.tyson said:
I just don't get the nihilism of Brexit. There was an interview with some farmers, farmers who rely on EU subsidies, and they supported Brexit.0 -
IIRC Only 16% cited immigration as most important in recent polling, it's a symptom of bigger sovereignty issues. I think Leave can quite easily umbrella many issues like this.kle4 said:
It's only that simple if immigration is the prevailing concern. It really isn't for me, it's more the abstract sovereignty issue, but I recognise the former is more compelling and real for most people.runnymede said:
'Well, you either take the view that yes, OUT means OUT and the rest is details, or you might take the view that it is beholden upon Leave to explain just what OUT means.
I am probably 35:65 on the issue.'
I think it's really simple.
Without a LEAVE vote, there is no chance at all of stopping EU immigration. With a LEAVE vote, there is a chance but it is not guaranteed. Ergo if you want to stop EU immigration you vote LEAVE.
And have done so using micro disparate campaigning. There's many talking to their own special interest. I follow a dozen on Twitter and it's fascinating0 -
Does anybody seriously think this is what the public actually thinks or will think come GE 2020?HYUFD said:Corbyn preferred to Osborne as PM by 34% to 21%. Cameron and Boris lead Jezza
http://order-order.com/2016/04/14/corbyn-preferred-to-osborne-as-pm/0 -
Yes if Osborne is Leader.rottenborough said:
Does anybody seriously think this is what the public actually thinks or will think come GE 2020?HYUFD said:Corbyn preferred to Osborne as PM by 34% to 21%. Cameron and Boris lead Jezza
http://order-order.com/2016/04/14/corbyn-preferred-to-osborne-as-pm/
0 -
Reports on Sky said this, makes sense - literally no free lunches on the taxpayer.FrancisUrquhart said:
Could the wage change be down to Osborne's new "living wage" i.e. in order to up the pay of some, they have reduced the pay of others and thus have a single pay bracket.PAW said:Hmm.. My mother's carers have just told me they have had a pay cut. There used to be several levels of carers but now there is a single level - at the minimum wage - from £7.72 now £7.20. One of them has just set up married life at 25 in a single room of a shared house.
Last year the company set up a company pension (required now). They offered a £100 company contribution. I don't think anybody signed up.
So this is the EU for most people now, poor wages, no future career.
There was a report in the Guardian a few days ago where they were reporting on what companies where doing and many were cutting benefits such as free lunches.0 -
Well quite. It's absurd.Luckyguy1983 said:
Chorus of squeals from Remains because Leave won't charge into the obvious Remain beartrap of dictating Government policy for the next 20 years.AlastairMeeks said:
Zero official status. But Leave campaigners such as yourself want to wash your hands of sorting out the sets of problems that you are keen to create. By explaining now what Leave wants Leave to look like would give a strong policy steer to the government after 23 June.ThreeQuidder said:
The problem you have with this line of argument is that you fail to admit that the leave campaign have precisely zero official status with the government after June 23rd.AlastairMeeks said:It's remarkable how irresponsible - in the deepest sense of the word - so many Leave campaigners are. Unable or unwilling to face up to the deep contradictions in their ranks, they seek to pass the responsibility for what a Leave vote would mean onto the shoulders of someone who is avowedly in favour of staying in the EU.
The nonchalance with which - even for the policy that has been their touchstone for decades - they disavow the hard work of trying to make their incoherent policy work is astonishing.
"Not my problem guv" is a contemptible attitude.
You'd have to have a heart of stone etc.0 -
Does anything more need to be said in mainstream broadcast channels about immigration? Leaflets reminding voters in working class areas would probably suffice to encourage Labour voters to stay at home or vote LEAVE.Plato_Says said:
IIRC Only 16% cited immigration as most important in recent polling, it's a symptom of bigger sovereignty issues. I think Leave can quite easily umbrella many issues like this.kle4 said:
It's only that simple if immigration is the prevailing concern. It really isn't for me, it's more the abstract sovereignty issue, but I recognise the former is more compelling and real for most people.runnymede said:
'Well, you either take the view that yes, OUT means OUT and the rest is details, or you might take the view that it is beholden upon Leave to explain just what OUT means.
I am probably 35:65 on the issue.'
I think it's really simple.
Without a LEAVE vote, there is no chance at all of stopping EU immigration. With a LEAVE vote, there is a chance but it is not guaranteed. Ergo if you want to stop EU immigration you vote LEAVE.
And have done so using micro disparate campaigning. There's many talking to their own special interest. I follow a dozen on Twitter and it's fascinating
0 -
That photo is toxic to Cameron.HYUFD said:Cameron, Paddy Ashdown and Neil Kinnock man a 'Vote Remain' phonebank together
https://twitter.com/montie/status/720550604515487744
Whose idea was that?
At the very least he shouldn't have been sitting next to them in a row.0 -
Do they have Arron Banks with a purple rosette just out of shot?Theuniondivvie said:0 -
Good lord! Words fail...Theuniondivvie said:0 -
Well put, Mr EarsMyBurningEars said:
Moreover, it's unfair to treat "Leave" as one homogeneous bloc when they contain people from a spectrum of political opinions. There are good left-wing reasons to vote Leave. There are good right-wing reasons to vote Leave. There are good liberal reasons to vote Leave.Indigo said:
Leave didn't create the problem. The government did, they asked the question. You as a lawyer, of all people should know that it's foolish to ask a question if you don't want to know the answer. A government that asks a question of the population on the future of the country, and isn't prepared and planned for any eventuality is negligent.
In addition, about three months ago Cameron was strutting around the TV studios telling us that if he didn't get a slightly larger bit of fluff than the one currently on offer he was perfectly prepared to leave the EU, and was sure we would be fine going it alone, and yet we are supposed to believe him when a couple of months later when he says leaving would be a complete disaster and we would be badly damaged if we went alone, and with a straight face as well.
Of course, there are good left and right and liberal wing reasons to vote to remain, too. But it seems quite unreasonable to me to expect an entirely unlikely coalition, who have coalesced around this issue based on quite diverse reasoning, to decide on a concrete programme (which, of course, they have no means of implementing).
Remain has a "default advantage" in this sense, it just means "business as usual" so even Corbyn and Cameron and Clegg can agree on it. Though in the long run, do you think that they should be condemned for not putting together a coherent vision for Britain's future in Europe? This is something that Cyclefree and others here have been asking for. What's the endgame - Britain to join the federal "Inner Core"? Adopt the euro but in other aspects remain on the periphery? Fight to make the EU more of a trading club than a political union? A more liberal Europe? A more social Europe? The charge that we are sleepwalking into We Know What What has some validity. But I don't expect that Corbyn and Cameron and the more europhile Lib Dems to have a common vision for EU2030.0 -
In the present climate yesrottenborough said:
Does anybody seriously think this is what the public actually thinks or will think come GE 2020?HYUFD said:Corbyn preferred to Osborne as PM by 34% to 21%. Cameron and Boris lead Jezza
http://order-order.com/2016/04/14/corbyn-preferred-to-osborne-as-pm/0 -
Arhhh so you are not a Tory supporter, let me hand you over to my colleague...0
-
What on earth did people expect to happen? Companies volunteering to slash their own profit margins?Plato_Says said:
Reports on Sky said this, makes sense - literally no free lunches on the taxpayer.FrancisUrquhart said:
Could the wage change be down to Osborne's new "living wage" i.e. in order to up the pay of some, they have reduced the pay of others and thus have a single pay bracket.PAW said:Hmm.. My mother's carers have just told me they have had a pay cut. There used to be several levels of carers but now there is a single level - at the minimum wage - from £7.72 now £7.20. One of them has just set up married life at 25 in a single room of a shared house.
Last year the company set up a company pension (required now). They offered a £100 company contribution. I don't think anybody signed up.
So this is the EU for most people now, poor wages, no future career.
There was a report in the Guardian a few days ago where they were reporting on what companies where doing and many were cutting benefits such as free lunches.0 -
Pandas last over 4 minutes apparentlyMarqueeMark said:
At least with Paddy, it would be over quickly!Theuniondivvie said:
"Sir Paddy Ashdown's fame stems as much from a peccadillo and reports that he lasted nine-and-a-half seconds in the sack as from leading the Liberal Democrats for 11 years."
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2001/mar/19/profiles.parliament0 -
I'd be very inclined to vote for Jezza over Boy George.HYUFD said:Corbyn preferred to Osborne as PM by 34% to 21%. Cameron and Boris lead Jezza
http://order-order.com/2016/04/14/corbyn-preferred-to-osborne-as-pm/0 -
I imagine they were each ringing their own party's supporters but nonetheless a gift to UKIPCasino_Royale said:
That photo is toxic to Cameron.HYUFD said:Cameron, Paddy Ashdown and Neil Kinnock man a 'Vote Remain' phonebank together
https://twitter.com/montie/status/720550604515487744
Whose idea was that?
At the very least he shouldn't have been sitting next to them in a row.0 -
But the ones in captivity apparently have to be shown explicit movies to get them going first...Plato_Says said:Pandas last over 4 minutes apparently
MarqueeMark said:
At least with Paddy, it would be over quickly!Theuniondivvie said:
"Sir Paddy Ashdown's fame stems as much from a peccadillo and reports that he lasted nine-and-a-half seconds in the sack as from leading the Liberal Democrats for 11 years."
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2001/mar/19/profiles.parliament0 -
Number one rule of being a success is that you aren't seen with losers. Why is Cameron (a two time election winner and Prime Minister) being pictured with serial losers like Paddy and Kinnock?Casino_Royale said:
That photo is toxic to Cameron.HYUFD said:Cameron, Paddy Ashdown and Neil Kinnock man a 'Vote Remain' phonebank together
https://twitter.com/montie/status/720550604515487744
Whose idea was that?
At the very least he shouldn't have been sitting next to them in a row.
Cameron really is blowing it isn't he? He got the second term and now he's destroying it all...0 -
The concept of a Government y'know, governing, seems quite beyond them. I suppose it has been a while.Plato_Says said:
Well quite. It's absurd.Luckyguy1983 said:
Chorus of squeals from Remains because Leave won't charge into the obvious Remain beartrap of dictating Government policy for the next 20 years.AlastairMeeks said:
Zero official status. But Leave campaigners such as yourself want to wash your hands of sorting out the sets of problems that you are keen to create. By explaining now what Leave wants Leave to look like would give a strong policy steer to the government after 23 June.ThreeQuidder said:
The problem you have with this line of argument is that you fail to admit that the leave campaign have precisely zero official status with the government after June 23rd.AlastairMeeks said:It's remarkable how irresponsible - in the deepest sense of the word - so many Leave campaigners are. Unable or unwilling to face up to the deep contradictions in their ranks, they seek to pass the responsibility for what a Leave vote would mean onto the shoulders of someone who is avowedly in favour of staying in the EU.
The nonchalance with which - even for the policy that has been their touchstone for decades - they disavow the hard work of trying to make their incoherent policy work is astonishing.
"Not my problem guv" is a contemptible attitude.
You'd have to have a heart of stone etc.0 -
Well, he has technically committed a crime. (In that insulting a foreign head of state is - bizarrely - a crime in Germany.)Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Indigo, that's intensely depressing. Germany's going to the dogs.
I would have thought that this comes under the heading of the Streisland Effect: prosecuting will make the video much better known. And, the trial will find him not guilty irrespective.0 -
On the EU/EFTA option the Bruges Group ran a poll a couple of years ago that found massive support for this versus the EU. So I don't think we should assume it's a non-starter.
http://www.brugesgroup.com/media-centre/comment/37-comment-and-analysis/591-71-said-they-would-prefer-britain-to-leave-the-eu-and-join-efta0 -
I'm now 50:50 as to whether I want him to continue as PM after the referendum, now, regardless of the result.GIN1138 said:
Number one rule of being a success is that you aren't seen with losers. Why is Cameron (a two time election winner and Prime Minister) being pictured with serial losers like Paddy and Kinnock?Casino_Royale said:
That photo is toxic to Cameron.HYUFD said:Cameron, Paddy Ashdown and Neil Kinnock man a 'Vote Remain' phonebank together
https://twitter.com/montie/status/720550604515487744
Whose idea was that?
At the very least he shouldn't have been sitting next to them in a row.
Cameron really is blowing it isn't he? He got the second term and now he's destroying it all...
That photo is a serious mistake.0 -
Mr. 1000, that's... crazy. I hope he gets found innocent and that stupid law is repealed.0
-
NEW THREAD NEW THREAD
0 -
If Leave refuses to set out a prospectus, wins and the Government then decides to interpret the decision as it thinks fit, the immediate screams of pain and outrage from the Leave campaigners will be as if they had all simultaneously caught their scrotums in their zips.Luckyguy1983 said:
The concept of a Government y'know, governing, seems quite beyond them. I suppose it has been a while.Plato_Says said:
Well quite. It's absurd.Luckyguy1983 said:
Chorus of squeals from Remains because Leave won't charge into the obvious Remain beartrap of dictating Government policy for the next 20 years.AlastairMeeks said:
Zero official status. But Leave campaigners such as yourself want to wash your hands of sorting out the sets of problems that you are keen to create. By explaining now what Leave wants Leave to look like would give a strong policy steer to the government after 23 June.ThreeQuidder said:
The problem you have with this line of argument is that you fail to admit that the leave campaign have precisely zero official status with the government after June 23rd.AlastairMeeks said:It's remarkable how irresponsible - in the deepest sense of the word - so many Leave campaigners are. Unable or unwilling to face up to the deep contradictions in their ranks, they seek to pass the responsibility for what a Leave vote would mean onto the shoulders of someone who is avowedly in favour of staying in the EU.
The nonchalance with which - even for the policy that has been their touchstone for decades - they disavow the hard work of trying to make their incoherent policy work is astonishing.
"Not my problem guv" is a contemptible attitude.
You'd have to have a heart of stone etc.0 -
My "We Know Not What" came out a bit mangled but you get the gist.Plato_Says said:
Well put, Mr EarsMyBurningEars said:
Moreover, it's unfair to treat "Leave" as one homogeneous bloc when they contain people from a spectrum of political opinions. There are good left-wing reasons to vote Leave. There are good right-wing reasons to vote Leave. There are good liberal reasons to vote Leave.Indigo said:
Leave didn't create the problem. The government did, they asked the question. You as a lawyer, of all people should know that it's foolish to ask a question if you don't want to know the answer. A government that asks a question of the population on the future of the country, and isn't prepared and planned for any eventuality is negligent.
In addition, about three months ago Cameron was strutting around the TV studios telling us that if he didn't get a slightly larger bit of fluff than the one currently on offer he was perfectly prepared to leave the EU, and was sure we would be fine going it alone, and yet we are supposed to believe him when a couple of months later when he says leaving would be a complete disaster and we would be badly damaged if we went alone, and with a straight face as well.
Of course, there are good left and right and liberal wing reasons to vote to remain, too. But it seems quite unreasonable to me to expect an entirely unlikely coalition, who have coalesced around this issue based on quite diverse reasoning, to decide on a concrete programme (which, of course, they have no means of implementing).
Remain has a "default advantage" in this sense, it just means "business as usual" so even Corbyn and Cameron and Clegg can agree on it. Though in the long run, do you think that they should be condemned for not putting together a coherent vision for Britain's future in Europe? This is something that Cyclefree and others here have been asking for. What's the endgame - Britain to join the federal "Inner Core"? Adopt the euro but in other aspects remain on the periphery? Fight to make the EU more of a trading club than a political union? A more liberal Europe? A more social Europe? The charge that we are sleepwalking into We Know What What has some validity. But I don't expect that Corbyn and Cameron and the more europhile Lib Dems to have a common vision for EU2030.0 -
Kinnock is by far the worst - Telethon to keep him and his ghastly family trousering millions in EU salaries?GIN1138 said:
Number one rule of being a success is that you aren't seen with losers. Why is Cameron (a two time election winner and Prime Minister) being pictured with serial losers like Paddy and Kinnock?Casino_Royale said:
That photo is toxic to Cameron.HYUFD said:Cameron, Paddy Ashdown and Neil Kinnock man a 'Vote Remain' phonebank together
https://twitter.com/montie/status/720550604515487744
Whose idea was that?
At the very least he shouldn't have been sitting next to them in a row.
Cameron really is blowing it isn't he? He got the second term and now he's destroying it all...0 -
I wonder if those who worry about immigrants from the EU are keeping under the radar for fear of being accused of being racist.
Presumably they would have no problem responding LEAVE in the polling though.0 -
FrancisUrquhart,
short call rates in Bournemouth is £21/hour/ per person arranged through the council in a block deal. That is meant to be the rate the agency actually gets since the Care Act last year so I think the agency could have absorbed the cost really - for just a few senior carers after all and many carers are short hours.
Rates arranged directly with the agency are double, I think.
2 and 3/4 hours a day for 2 carers every day is around £42,000 (I think) a year for me to find. It is irritating to find the carers get so little.0 -
0
-
The Leave agents embedded into the heart of the Remain campaign are doing excellent work....Casino_Royale said:
That photo is toxic to Cameron.HYUFD said:Cameron, Paddy Ashdown and Neil Kinnock man a 'Vote Remain' phonebank together
https://twitter.com/montie/status/720550604515487744
Whose idea was that?
0 -
Not toxic at all. Quite the reverse. It tells me all the leading parties support Remain. If that spooks you wait until the 48 sheets come out with Redwood-Gove-IDS-Farage-Johnson-Galloway.Casino_Royale said:
That photo is toxic to Cameron.HYUFD said:Cameron, Paddy Ashdown and Neil Kinnock man a 'Vote Remain' phonebank together
https://twitter.com/montie/status/720550604515487744
Whose idea was that?
At the very least he shouldn't have been sitting next to them in a row.0 -
I'm shocked https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/73791/labour-hit-fresh-entryism-row-after-registered
Labour has been hit by a fresh entryism row after it emerged some of the party's registered supporters have given their backing to Green party candidates for next month's council elections.
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You don't understand. In yet another parallel with the Scottish independence debate, every item of news without exception is viewed by Leave supporters as good news for Leave and bad news for Remain.Roger said:
Not toxic at all. Quite the reverse. It tells me all the leading parties support Remain. If that spooks you wait until the 48 sheets come out with Redwood-Gove-IDS-Farage-Johnson-Galloway.Casino_Royale said:
That photo is toxic to Cameron.HYUFD said:Cameron, Paddy Ashdown and Neil Kinnock man a 'Vote Remain' phonebank together
https://twitter.com/montie/status/720550604515487744
Whose idea was that?
At the very least he shouldn't have been sitting next to them in a row.0 -
I think a disorderly exit from the EU, where we did not reach a deal with the rest of the group, but simply repealed the European Communities Act have significantly worse effect than 2-3% on GDP, at least initially.Casino_Royale said:@TSE
No true ardent Leaver would reach such a conclusion - just look at Michael Gove.
We know the worst case scenario of Brexit with no deal - WTO rules. OpenEurope estimates a 2-3% fall in GDP, which is less than we grow in a single year. Not ideal but certainly not catastrophic and a deal will be there to be made.
The rest is scaremongering.
There would be a lot more uncertainty than under EFTA/EEA, certain things would be in legal limbo (including double taxation treatment and the sale of - for example - investment products to French citizens from UK firms.)
These are not reasons to stay. But they are reasons to make sure we exit sensibly.0 -
Not the next 20 years - just the next 2 years after Cameron invokes Article 50 on June 24th would be helpful......four freedoms, or not?Luckyguy1983 said:Chorus of squeals from Remains because Leave won't charge into the obvious Remain beartrap of dictating Government policy for the next 20 years.
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Unlike the LEAVE grannies.Polruan said:
Remainers smell of oui.MarqueeMark said:
Brexiteers smell of wee....nigel4england said:
Project Fear isn't working so now it's just insults.tyson said:It is difficult not to ridicule such moronic thinking. If I didn't know better I would assume that the Brexit bunch have been consumed by a brain disease that inhibits all rational thought.
Seriously, why would a farmer want to leave the EU when his livelihood depends on it?
There is no other explanation for the madness of Brexit thinking other than nonsense, stupidity, or the kind of reactionary nationalism that has caused Europe so much harm in the last century.
And this is me being quite kind and reasonable.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Another REMAINER insulting people advocating LEAVE.tyson said:Brexit is about as intellectually rigorous as being a Millwall fan and kicking the shit of a Fulham fan for supporting Fulham.
Brexit is nihilistic nonsense.AlastairMeeks said:It's remarkable how irresponsible - in the deepest sense of the word - so many Leave campaigners are. Unable or unwilling to face up to the deep contradictions in their ranks, they seek to pass the responsibility for what a Leave vote would mean onto the shoulders of someone who is avowedly in favour of staying in the EU.
The nonchalance with which - even for the policy that has been their touchstone for decades - they disavow the hard work of trying to make their incoherent policy work is astonishing.0 -
How bad do you to be that Corbyn is considered a better prospective PM than you? And given Osborne's dire numbers recently (I remember one where only 8% IIRC saw him as a future PM or something along those lines) I can take that poll at face value. Looks like not just "anybody" will beat Corbyn in 2020. Hopefully this sparks the Tories to think about electing a leader that will be welcomed by many throughout the country as opposed to somebody who only Tory members like....0
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I rest my case.Roger said:
Not toxic at all. Quite the reverse. It tells me all the leading parties support Remain. If that spooks you wait until the 48 sheets come out with Redwood-Gove-IDS-Farage-Johnson-Galloway.Casino_Royale said:
That photo is toxic to Cameron.HYUFD said:Cameron, Paddy Ashdown and Neil Kinnock man a 'Vote Remain' phonebank together
https://twitter.com/montie/status/720550604515487744
Whose idea was that?
At the very least he shouldn't have been sitting next to them in a row.0 -
You'd have to have a heart of stone, not to laugh.Plato_Says said:Labour has been hit by a fresh entryism row after it emerged some of the party's registered supporters have given their backing to Green party candidates for next month's council elections.
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Leave is being honest about the various different options available and the consequences. They are not pretending it is a simple solution. Remain is pretending that it will be business as usual. In this they are being dishonest. Their prospectus is false.AlastairMeeks said:
Remain is offering a prospectus. Leave is not. You can criticise the Remain prospectus for being fanciful, implausible or dishonest, but it is offering one.Richard_Tyndall said:
It is remarkable how irresponsible - and additionally dishonest - so many Remain campaigners are. Unable or unwilling to face up to the fact that a vote for Remain is not a vote for status quo but for more integration and a continued move towards political union.AlastairMeeks said:It's remarkable how irresponsible - in the deepest sense of the word - so many Leave campaigners are. Unable or unwilling to face up to the deep contradictions in their ranks, they seek to pass the responsibility for what a Leave vote would mean onto the shoulders of someone who is avowedly in favour of staying in the EU.
The nonchalance with which - even for the policy that has been their touchstone for decades - they disavow the hard work of trying to make their incoherent policy work is astonishing.
Leave? It simply hasn't got as far as aspiring to coherence.0 -
I'm not a Leave "campaigner". But the government can and will ignore anything that happened pre June 23rd after June 23rd.AlastairMeeks said:
Zero official status. But Leave campaigners such as yourself want to wash your hands of sorting out the sets of problems that you are keen to create. By explaining now what Leave wants Leave to look like would give a strong policy steer to the government after 23 June.ThreeQuidder said:
The problem you have with this line of argument is that you fail to admit that the leave campaign have precisely zero official status with the government after June 23rd.AlastairMeeks said:It's remarkable how irresponsible - in the deepest sense of the word - so many Leave campaigners are. Unable or unwilling to face up to the deep contradictions in their ranks, they seek to pass the responsibility for what a Leave vote would mean onto the shoulders of someone who is avowedly in favour of staying in the EU.
The nonchalance with which - even for the policy that has been their touchstone for decades - they disavow the hard work of trying to make their incoherent policy work is astonishing.
"Not my problem guv" is a contemptible attitude.
Just like they did with the last referendum which was only about a common market.0
